cmryan
05/24/04 03:03 PM
4.12.82.110
|
Does anyone have any information as to why the creators of BattleTech have kept it a humans only universe?
|
JStallion
05/24/04 04:05 PM
69.244.182.44
|
they havent, check out the book far country.
but i believe its dominately humans because its just better that way, makes it a more realistic sci-fi series
|
Cray
05/25/04 06:51 AM
68.200.105.227
|
Quote:
Does anyone have any information as to why the creators of BattleTech have kept it a humans only universe?
To be different than most other game systems available at its introduction.
Generally, the fans seem to recognize and appreciate this (myself among them). The "bird men" aliens of the BT novel Far Country have earned that novel a poor reputation in the BT community.
If I want aliens, I'll play Star Trek, Star Wars, B5, or Traveller.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Tzu
05/26/04 12:58 PM
68.158.70.238
|
You also might want to take into account that the overall amount of space explored in the BT universe thus far isn't that much astronomically speaking. IIRC, the Inner Sphere has a radius of about 60 light years (give or take) and the only mapped areas outside of that are a few periphery states, Exodus Road, and the Clan homeworlds. Who knows what could be found just a few light years beyond their borders (but for the sake of all that is holy, please let there be nothing  ).
Ever made a 'Mech with 6 Gauss Rifles? I have.
Brick Commander, where Lego and Battletech unite!
|
Cray
05/26/04 01:29 PM
147.160.1.5
|
Quote:
You also might want to take into account that the overall amount of space explored in the BT universe thus far isn't that much astronomically speaking. IIRC, the Inner Sphere has a radius of about 60 light years (give or take)
Radius of 500 LY, overall diameter of 1000LY, with the Clan homeworlds 1500LY or so from Terra. 
Quote:
and the only mapped areas outside of that are a few periphery states, Exodus Road, and the Clan homeworlds.
Not any individual human agency except maybe the old Star League. They did appear to have mapped a majority of human space, out to at least a distance of the Clan Home Worlds. The Deep Periphery nations were in contact with the Star League or cover substantial volumes of space (Hanseatic League). The Rim Worlds Republic occupied a huge swath of space outside the Lyran Commonwealth.
However, even a 2000LY diameter volume is a small fraction of the Milky Way's volume.
Quote:
Who knows what could be found just a few light years beyond their borders (but for the sake of all that is holy, please let there be nothing ).
Indeed.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Greyslayer
05/27/04 01:13 AM
216.14.192.234
|
I'm trying to remember the books, but possibly in the original Star League source book was information pertaining to the discovery of many ruins discovered all over the place that were completely deserted. They were of varying technology levels but the information on this was vague at best. This indicates that they possibly had the option of introducing an alien society into the game but opted for the best enemy of all.... ourselves.
|
Karagin
05/27/04 04:47 AM
81.31.198.34
|
In the MW Compaion book to MW2 there is talk of cave man like creatures on one or two planets as well as some nasty "alien" animals and plant life...so could you define your idea of alien? Are you asking why no starfaring races with super weapons?
I think things work better when folks can relate to each group better. So using humans as the main thing allows everyone to find a notche.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cray
05/27/04 07:19 AM
147.160.1.5
|
Quote:
I'm trying to remember the books, but possibly in the original Star League source book was information pertaining to the discovery of many ruins discovered all over the place that were completely deserted.
I don't recall that personally, but the good news is, the .pdf version of the SLSB should be out shortly (like it has been for the past year...), so it'll be electronically searchable.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Cray
05/27/04 07:20 AM
147.160.1.5
|
Quote:
In the MW Compaion book to MW2 there is talk of cave man like creatures
Yeah. They were, I believe, the formal write-ups of the critters in "Sword and the Dagger."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Tzu
05/28/04 04:41 PM
68.217.14.218
|
Quote:
Radius of 500 LY, overall diameter of 1000LY, with the Clan homeworlds 1500LY or so from Terra.
I guess it was give then, and not take 
Quote:
However, even a 2000LY diameter volume is a small fraction of the Milky Way's volume.
Quite correct. There've got to be super weapon-weilding aliens out there somewhere  .
Ever made a 'Mech with 6 Gauss Rifles? I have.
Brick Commander, where Lego and Battletech unite!
|
JStallion
05/28/04 10:02 PM
69.244.182.44
|
lets just hope not. Battletech is good the way it is, dont need it to turn into another star trek
|
cmryan
05/29/04 04:19 PM
4.12.82.110
|
Alien civilizations starfaring capability and superweapons strictly optional. I read Far Country so there there was 1 attempt to inject aliens into BattleTech. Judging from the reaction whenever Far Country is mentioned most people are opposed to introducing aliens.
|
Thor_Mech
05/31/04 11:57 PM
65.100.166.90
|
I pray there will not be any aliens. Quiaff?
"Even after all these years, walking through the ranks of 'Mechs still gives me the chills"
- Intelligence Secretary Justin Xiang Allard
Outreach, 21, Sept 3051
|
JStallion
06/01/04 07:10 AM
69.244.182.44
|
Aff. but im pretty sure thats not the right way of putting quiaff into a sentence. you say it like youre already sure the answer is yes.
I.E. The Pistons will beat the Pacers, quiaff?
when saying "I pray there will not be any aliens. Quiaff? " youre not sure about it because youre praying that there wont be. same thing with quineg, expecting the answer to be no.
I.E. The Pistons will lose to the Pacers, quineg?
|
Kristan_DEATH_Dagley
06/04/04 09:29 PM
24.222.40.119
|
I think its safe to say that with the millions of planets out there that it seems reasonable that we haven't encountered aliens in BattleTech. I mean what are the chances of humanity running into another race of equal or superior technology? Furthermore who says that we are looking in the right places? What if alien cultures can exsist on planets we deem inhospitable? But I do agree that this sets BattleTech apart from other fictional universes. With only humans as the core root of the problem BattleTech has more of a human element. All the better to connect to our races past and present cultures/prejudices. It places more of an emphasis on what we do as humans in the history of our race, and makes the stories of this universe more personal and believable as well. I like CBT just the way it is. 
Every ending brings with it a new beginning.
-Cause and Effect, Avalon Press, 3067
-Loren L. Coleman {End Game}
|
Wolfgar
06/05/04 09:15 PM
205.188.116.210
|
Besides what self respecting intelligent alien life-form would have anything to do with warmongering possibly disease riddled humans in the first place.........of course it could be trap to lull the innersphere into a false sense of security before the super weapon weilding aliens show up and kill the whole lot thus allowing the clans to finally take tera like they should of before some weak wristed novel writer got in the way, and messed things up. Of course that is only one mans humble oppinion
Arrows?....What arrows? I didn't even see the fricken Indians!
|
JStallion
06/05/04 10:02 PM
69.244.182.44
|
what self respecting alien would let themselves be shown up by us?
i know humans would try as much as possible to copy the technology etc. so they wouldnt be more intelligent than us.
|
Revenant
06/19/04 09:16 AM
205.188.116.149
|
I read a good quote recently by Joss Whelan (sp-?), the creator of the TV series 'Firefly', which like Battletech is a future sci fi setting notable for it's complete lack of aliens.
Whelan was asked by the tv network bosses when pitching the show; "Where are the aliens?"
When Whelan replied "There aren't any." the tv execs looked baffled and stated;
"Surely you have to have aliens in a space sci fi adventure setting." To which Whelan replied;
"Why...there aren't any now."
Which I think is a great answer. I have always loved the fact Battletech is free of aliens, just their absence seems to add a layer of believability in the setting, let's face it real aliens (if such a thing exists) are likely to be beyond the imagining of humans and attempts to make up alien races are almost always simply 'foreign' human cultures dressed up in bumpy foreheads or silly wigs. Also as far as I recall accepted modern scientific thought is that the chances of intelligent life occuring elsewhere in our vast galaxy is extremely low indeed. Aliens have never been needed or desirable (imo) in the BT setting.
|
Spartan
06/19/04 11:54 AM
67.64.145.140
|
Quote:
Also as far as I recall accepted modern scientific thought is that the chances of intelligent life occuring elsewhere in our vast galaxy is extremely low indeed.
Well they're actually divided on this. There are those who adhere to the Fermi Paradox, which asks that if there is intelligent life then, where is it? He believed that had there been a set of intelligent life elsewhere, at least one civilization would already be here and have left evidence at the very least.
And then there are those who follow an equation set forth by a man named Drake that actually predicts approximately 50000 intelligent civilizations in our galaxy, according to there latest estimates. I know that seems kinda high but keep in mind that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy. So according to them, there is one civilization per 2000000 stars, on average.
for info see: www.space.com/searchforlife/shostak_paradox_011024.html
for info on the Fermi Paradox on the same page there's a link to an article on the equation I mentioned: www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_drake_equation.html
and to a video talking about it and what they feel the numbers come out to, it's on the first page, but it's a javascript popup to see it so I don't know quite how to link to that.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
|
Spartan
06/19/04 12:01 PM
67.64.145.140
|
I haven't fully made up my mind about aliens, in real life that is. I want solid proof before I actually believe that they're here or else where. And I don't consider the preponderence of lunatics claiming they were abducted and, um, probed to be enough proof. Or the photographic evidence people have put forth because I feel that they can all be explained with some kind of non-alien theory. But I do believe that extraterrestrial and extrasolar life does exist. Maybe not intelligent life but life nonetheless.
As far as Battletech is concerned, however, I'm with everyone else on this. It is GOOD that they have never introduced additional sentient species, like someone else mentioned, it makes it seem more real in some way.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
|
cmryan
06/19/04 01:02 PM
4.12.82.110
|
Hello Spartan, If alien life really does exist than belief in alien life is irrelevant.
|
Spartan
06/19/04 02:57 PM
67.64.145.140
|
Sorry I worded that poorly. By saying that I don't believe in aliens I meant that I don't believe in aliens having visited Earth. I was trying to draw a distinction between that and life existing outside of our planet.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
|
Revenant
06/19/04 04:00 PM
64.12.116.210
|
Interesting stuff about the possibility of alien life, thanks Spartan.
I don't deny the possibility there might be intelligent life out there somewhere, but I feel that attempts to plausibly depict it in rpgs and sci fi fiction almost always end up being human cultures under a rubber suit (at best). As we all seem to agree BT is the better for being a humans only setting, for it helps give the feel of a continued history of the real world we all know. Once you put in aliens then immediately you've got a break in 'real' history and setting plausibility.
I'm shocked about these birdmen aliens mentioned above, a real sign of the decline in standards of the later years of FASA's production imo. (Mind you those silly apemen of the Sword and the Dagger have always been there too.)
|
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/21/04 10:11 PM
65.1.53.170
|
I've heard nasty rumors that Wizards was going to release a new version of Battletech with an "alien menace" premise, complete with aliens wielding Bio-Tech Warrior drones and the like... I hope this stays rumor, and Wizards does nothing but continue the story as already written if and when they decide to advance the franchise. Aliens are fine and great, for Darth Vader or Captain Picard, but Ilkhan Kerensky shouldn't have to worry about them in addtion to the IS. That's just my 2 cents.
|
Greyslayer
06/21/04 10:27 PM
203.61.71.85
|
Even though I am a critic of the Wiz Kids gaming system and progression of the storyline. I have always maintained that battletech is not the 'story' but the gaming system. If they want an alternate 'battletech' universe with aliens in it then that is fine, providing they stick to the basic rules of the game. If they create a totally different gaming system and then stick on the 'battletech' badge then of course it is pathetic, rather like clickytech really oh and the clans .
|
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/22/04 11:14 PM
65.1.53.170
|
It would seem, at least so far, that wiz kids are content to merely sit on the license and let it hemmhorage slowly, riding on Magic's fame and siphoning some profits from the Mechwarrior series... I remember when I first heard of FASA's selling and wizards buying... Let's hope my initial horrors will be proven wrong, and they are merely waiting to release a new version... Aliens or not, it's time to see SOMETHING NEW for the Board game fans, don't ya think?
|
Greyslayer
06/23/04 01:04 AM
216.14.192.234
|
They don't control the board game. They may control the overall detail of the source material (direction) for those to use with their board games but essentially FanPro now control the board game.
|
Gangrene
06/23/04 01:53 AM
24.6.228.14
|
Wizkids owns the rights to all Battletech logos and trademarks, including the board game. From what I have heard, it sounds like FanPro is leasing the rights from Wizkids.
Gangrene
|
Gangrene
06/23/04 01:55 AM
24.6.228.14
|
I wouldn't agree that they are just sitting on the license, after all they did make a popular clickey game based on the universe and that shares many of the trademarks. As for the board game, I don't think Wizkids sees enough potential in it to make it worth their while.
Gangrene
|
Cray
06/23/04 06:20 AM
68.200.105.41
|
Quote:
I remember when I first heard of FASA's selling and wizards buying...
You were bothered when the original authors of BT bought it back?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Cray
06/23/04 06:23 AM
68.200.105.41
|
Quote:
I've heard nasty rumors that Wizards was going to release a new version of Battletech with an "alien menace" premise, complete with aliens wielding Bio-Tech Warrior drones and the like...
Wizards? You mean WizKids or Wizards of the Coast?
Anyway, WizKids is owned by the original writers of BT, the ones who made it an alien-free setting to begin with. I doubt they'd introduce aliens now. Is this just a rumor blowing around another BT forum or your gaming group?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/23/04 10:12 AM
65.1.53.170
|
Actually, I heard it from the person who introduced me to BT, while playing a semi campaign on the old school board game... He had little proof to back it up, but I wouldn't put it past old Wizards of the Coast.
|
Bansee
06/23/04 10:26 AM
152.163.253.36
|
It may be you or it may be I, but one of us is confused. To my knowledge of things Wizards of the Coast does Magic cards, which is I had not screwed around with I could have bought a car comemy 16th, but I digress. WizKids does the Battletech franchise.
Many of us are unhappy with the whole Dark Age thing, but I doubt that aliens are coming, look how annoyed hard-linnes were when the Clans came; and they are arguably human. If anything comes along it will be the desendants of the Unknown Clan/Minnesota Tribe.
Keep fighting the good fight gainst the Disneyfication of the game until WizKids flips he light-switch on over the Dark Age Universe.
|
Cray
06/23/04 10:42 AM
147.160.136.10
|
Quote:
but I wouldn't put it past old Wizards of the Coast.
Do you mean WizKids or Wizards of the Coast? They're very separate game companies.
*WizKids was founded by the original writers of Battletech and produces MageKnight, Clicktech, etc. WizKids now own the rights to Shadowrun and Battletech.
*Wizards of the Coast is the owner of DnD and Magic, and is now in turn owned by IIRC Hasboro. It has nothing to do with Shadowrun or Battletech.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/23/04 10:47 AM
65.1.53.170
|
Oops, pardon the major typo.. Wizards=wizkids... Oh well, I guess I should drink my coffee before posting in the forums... it is morning still..
|
dice00
06/25/04 02:08 AM
68.57.169.126
|
One of the annoying things though is that aliens are always pictured as differnt as us. Cannot aliens be human just from a differnt place? Hmmm.... but other than that, dark age dosent seem to going to anywhere near the alien possibility unless..... you count the unknown factor of the communications destroyed and how organized they were. For the most part, dark age is just jumping ahead to what was going to happen. If you dont like what they do in dark age, im sure they will produce stuff that came before darkage for battletech classic. Plus if you dont like the clicky bases, i believ you can play dark age classicstyle.
Wayward can keep telling us how great something is even if it does screw us like a tentacle monster on a hentai schoolgirl.- Seo
|
JStallion
06/26/04 05:50 PM
69.244.182.44
|
Quote:
Cannot aliens be human just from a differnt place?
What are you saying? They'd have to have an atmosphere and environment exactly as we do, evolve the exact same way and have everything similar. Even if they were mammals and such, look at how many species of mammals evolved from original ones. Although some share characteristics of others they're in no way the same. To me having aliens the same as us "just from another place" is impossible to even think of as a real possibility.
|
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/26/04 06:04 PM
65.1.53.170
|
Quote:
Cannot aliens be human just from a differnt place?
You sure you aren't a writer for the Star Trek series? 'cause it seems odd that all their 'aliens' seemed nothing more than humans with different ears, foreheads, and clothes... most of them didn't even have accents, let alone need another gas to breathe or liquid to drink! Nope, I have to agree that the chances of alien "humans" evolving the exact same way we did in the exact same fashion are so remote they border on impossible. We haven't even found another planet with similar gravity, atmosphere, and elemental composition yet, let alone spin and climate! How are other humans gonna evolve if there is no other earth? I for one am hoping that if and when we do contact "ET", that it is as biologically and socially different from us as possible. Aside from the fact that it would be really cool and finally vindicate those guys at SETI, we could learn so much more from a species that is radically different and approach things different ways than we could from a species that mirrors us in most ways already...
|
Spartan
06/27/04 02:17 PM
66.142.170.33
|
Yeah, in Star Trek all the various alien species are even genetically compatible with each other. Don't even get me started on how nonsensical that is.
But an extrasolar civilization, yeah that would be really cool. Especially if they were, well, if not benevolent, then at least not hostile and were willing to give or trade with us for various things. But of course if they were hostile, then I'm pretty sure we'd be in a whole world of trouble.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
|
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/27/04 08:55 PM
129.33.119.12
|
You know, that raises an interesting question: Knowing human nature, if we were to encounter a race of benevolent beings out there somewhere and found them weaker, I'd bet you 3 to one that we end up subjugating them in some form or fashion, if not wiping them all out due to our habit of massive xenophobia... But that being said, what if those "aliens", different or not, are as yet on par or behind our own technological level, and that's why we haven't met them yet? We always picture aliens as being so far beyond us in terms of technology, but life and advancements happen at different rates, and if any of those races gained sentience after humanity, it is safe to assume they would be technologically inferior to us...Assuming they exist in this galaxy or haven't already wiped themselves out, as we keep threatening to do to ourselves... Why do you think mars is covered in rust? Just kidding...
|
dice00
06/28/04 07:39 PM
68.57.169.126
|
time to defend myself. First off, I dont like star trek so I dont whatch it. Some times though but I think its sorta cheesy. And second, I know the odds against there being another human race out there. But who is to say that there couldnt be one, maybe not exactly the same but close enough to make us say, whoa, ehats the chances of that. Or, (I dont like this idea though) human dna or the like to creat something naer human. I mean look at the clans. They are taking dna and making clones. Surely someone is going to tamper with it at some point and mess things up so that some clones wont even look human. But forget the aliens. Just say no to alien attacks.
Wayward can keep telling us how great something is even if it does screw us like a tentacle monster on a hentai schoolgirl.- Seo
|
Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/28/04 10:48 PM
65.1.53.170
|
First off, if you created something "near human" with dna it wouldn't be alien, it would simply be mutant... and second off, I'm not saying there's no chance that alien life can't be like us, I'm just saying it's VERY HIGHLY improbable and hoping that they're not like us because it would be so much more interesting that way, at least IMHO...
|
Pav
07/11/04 03:16 PM
82.208.140.52
|
The problem is , not wheather intellihent life exists in the BT universe , but when...
Perhaps the aliens died out , perhaps they're still evolving...
In any case , the BT universe is fine as it is , it dosen't need aliens...
|
Carthaginian
07/11/04 03:51 PM
68.184.71.86
|
Quote:
Yeah, in Star Trek all the various alien species are even genetically compatible with each other. Don't even get me started on how nonsensical that is.
Spartin,
I'mm new to these boards, but not to Trek. The various species are not genetically compatable with each other. If they were, then there would be halfbreeds running around everywhere.
There have been only a handful of mixed-species pairings that produced offspring inTrek. Spock, the most notable and often cited example, was a test tube baby. He was 'concieved' by a genetics lab on Vulcan who took a year to mix and match his DNA to get a working system. This is not unlike the research that we are now undertaking to learn to 'switch on or off' certain genes that would cause some conginital birth defects or would allow parents to choose hair and eye color. Certianly it is on a higher level, but so is their science.
Another Vulcanoid who was 'of mixed ancestry' was Savak (Kirstie Alley, ST:2). She was not really the result of such a pairing; she was half-Vulcan, half-Romulan. No difference in genetics there- Romulans are Vulcans that left the planet to escape the logical teachings of Surak and practice the old ways of honor and war.
The final two pairings that I can think of were the mother of Warf's son Alexander, and B'Lana Torres. I am assuming that they would have been concieved in the same 'test-tube' manner as Spock.
The mixing of the DNA was because they were all carbon-based and had developed in a similar manner due to similar enviroments. They weren't automatically compatable.
There are also other intelegent speices which are totally alien- like the rock-eating Hortaion the episode 'Devil in the Dark' and the Tholians in the Tholian web. Both of these species are silicon-based as opposed to carbon-based. THere is now way that they would be genetically compatable even on the test-tube level... especially since both live in a high pressure enviroment with ambient teps reaching 400+F.
AS for BattleTech, I haven't really played it yet, butI like the fact that it does not include aliens. It allows for humanity to show it's many different qualities both good and bad, without having to be nothing but heroic do-gooders.
|
Omega
07/11/04 11:34 PM
207.69.137.200
|
Quote:
what self respecting alien would let themselves be shown up by us?
I don't know why not ask the clanners?
"There are two Main enemys of a Merc.
Heat & the most deadly of Foes our Financing".
(Drawing done by LawGiver)
"A man is not finished when he is defeated. He is Finished When he quits"-President R. M. Nixon
|
Spartan
07/12/04 01:20 AM
66.142.170.101
|
When I said "all" I was using hyperbole. First though I feel I need to clarify my use of "genetically compatible." If 2 species are genetically compatible then they are capable of producing an offspring that can itself produce offspring. It does not mean that they can simply produce a child.
>>This is not unlike the research that we are now undertaking to learn to 'switch on or off' certain genes that would cause some conginital birth defects or would allow parents to choose hair and eye color.
It is unlike it. Simply "turning off genes" would not make 2 different species genetically compatible. Choosing hair and eye color and eliminating inherited defects are not the same as making 2 species that evolved on different worlds compatible.
>>He was 'concieved' by a genetics lab on Vulcan who took a year to mix and match his DNA to get a working system.
Could you please point out to where this was said?
>>The final two pairings that I can think of were the mother of Warf's son Alexander, and B'Lana Torres. I am assuming that they would have been concieved in the same 'test-tube' manner as Spock.
If Spock was a test tube baby, automatically assuming that Alexander and B'Lana is a leap-of-logic fallacy.
>>The mixing of the DNA was because they were all carbon-based and had developed in a similar manner due to similar enviroments. They weren't automatically compatable.
In other words, they couldn't have produced viable offspring. Any children they might have had would be like a mule(cross of horse and donkey). Living, certainly, but incapable of sexual reproduction.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
|
Spartan
07/12/04 01:22 AM
66.142.170.101
|
The Clans are not alien. They are humans that fled the Star League with Alexander Kerensky.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
|
Omega
07/12/04 02:07 AM
207.69.137.42
|
Quote:
The Clans are not alien. They are humans that fled the Star League with Alexander Kerensky.
that's right their founding fathers was dishonorable chickens(by the way I am just kidding)
"There are two Main enemys of a Merc.
Heat & the most deadly of Foes our Financing".
(Drawing done by LawGiver)
"A man is not finished when he is defeated. He is Finished When he quits"-President R. M. Nixon
|
Gnome76
07/12/04 03:33 AM
68.12.242.212
|
Quote:
The final two pairings that I can think of were...
Don't forget Troi: Half Beta-Zed, half Human.
|
Carthaginian
07/12/04 04:26 PM
68.184.68.28
|
I am taking a little 'non-cannon'. but widely accepted liberty on things there. Many of the novels involving Sopck as a central character say that he was as much 'designed' as concieved. Specifically, anything by Diane Duane.
I cannot argue with the suggestion that they would be, like a mule, sterile hybrids. But Trek is not known for an all-consuming consistancy in it's canon material- we have a tremendous debate going on about that on the Star Fleet Command boards right now.
There are a lot of loopholes, but consider this- until Berman and Barga took over Trek, there was an established timeline and only one half-anything, and that was Spock. Threy threw in almost every conflicting piece of information in the Trek world.
Gnome, you are right... I forgot about her- actually, I didn't consider her a sentient life form, only amouthpiece for already obviousplot devices!
Edited by Carney (07/12/04 04:27 PM)
|
Wolfgar
07/13/04 06:20 PM
205.188.116.210
|
Question 1, What the blazes does Star Trek have to do with B- tech, in any shape form or way?
Question 2, Is it really important if there is or is not aliens in B-tech?
just so long they bring a mech with them so you can blow the damn thing up, who cares? B-tech been here for 2 decades and it has worked just fine without little green men or Spock or whoever thank you very much. Next you will be bringing in Babylon 5 into the discusion, enough already.Let us get back to the real question here. Who the heck came up with the idea that the clans would of been defeated by the IS and how come they were not imediatly shot for treason?
Oh by the way Garibaldie would have been a Timberwolf Pilot,Quiaff
Arrows?....What arrows? I didn't even see the fricken Indians!
Edited by Wolfgar (07/13/04 06:22 PM)
|
cmryan
07/14/04 12:44 AM
4.12.82.110
|
The Clans have several problems to overcome before they could counquer and rule the Inner Sphere.
First: Start adding up the military assets on both sides and the Inner Sphere has a tremendous advantage in numbers. Even if the FWL stays out of combat with the Clans. The Federated Commonwealth and the Draconis Combine outnumber the Clans in every category except possibly warships.
Second: The population problem. Start calculating the population of the Inner Sphere and the Kerensky Cluster and the Inner Sphere has a huge advantage. Plus the Clans way of life makes it very easy to mobilize the population against them. When the Smoke Jaguars destroyed the city of Turtle Bay they handed the Inner Sphere a major victory.
Technology: The claim that the Clans have a 300 year technology advantage and that this advantage is going to be decisive in a Clan victory I don't think the technology advantage will require hundreds of years to eliminate.
|
Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/14/04 11:50 PM
65.1.53.170
|
Since when did numerical superiority mean anything in war? Or have you forgotten The American Revolution, the Battle of Thermoplyae (I think I butchered the spelling), or, for a sci-fi tie-in, the fact the darned Rebels toppled the mighty Empire? Simply citing the IS's numerical superiority is not a guarantee of victory, and noting that the FS and DCMS are both larger means little, since they hate each other so much they'd just as soon fight each other as fight off the clans again...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
|
Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/14/04 11:51 PM
65.1.53.170
|
BTW, this thread has gotten so far off center and has taken a decidedly Trek-tinged note of late... Please return from that path of evil...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
|
Spartan
07/15/04 03:17 AM
65.68.201.108
|
The American Revolution would have been a lost cause had the French not intervened. And to be perfectly honest, we were very, very lucky. We would have still eventually lost (IMHO) had we not managed to corner Cornwallis like we did.
And the Battle of Thermopylae was a loss. The only reason the Greeks, or more correctly, the Spartans  held on as long as they did was the terrain. But they were eventually worn down and killed to the man. Yes they accomplished their strategic goal but they still lost the battle. And it was actually a few thousand Greeks, not just the 300 Spartans, on the last day of the battle at the very least. See this link: http://www.hoplites.co.uk/html/thermopylae.html Even though the Persians did have something like 250-350k in theater doesn't mean that they outnumbered the Spartans *tactically*. That's an important distinction. The Spartans used a bottle neck so that the Persian army had no more than a few hundred fighting against the Spartans at any given time(not counting tactical reserves) but *strategically* the vastly superior numbers of Persians allowed them to win the battle because they could maintain the offensive almost regardless of casualties. And the primary reason they ultimately failed the campaign was that they stretched their supply trains too far, something that will hinder the Clans in their offensive. DID hinder them in fact.
In a war of attrition, which is exactly what this would turn into, the IS would win. They have more forces to throw away, more importantly, they have more resources. And yes they're more inclined to fight each other(for that matter so are the Clans), BUT when faced with a common enemy they've shown that they can fight together, even in a limited fashion. That spells defeat for the Clans.
And you can name any number of exceptions to the idea that outnumbering your opponent doesn't really mean that you have an advantage but they will be just that, exceptions to the rule.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Edited by Spartan (07/15/04 03:29 AM)
|
Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/15/04 12:28 PM
65.1.53.170
|
I understand thermoplyae was a loss... However, it was not just due to lack of numbers... The bottleneck and the fact the persians took such heavy casualties was due to superior tactics, which the Greeks had, at least for that battle... and as far as the Revolution, it was Cornwallis' Pride, more than luck or the French, that lost the Colonies for King George. Take a look at the historically acurate portrayals of the war, and you'll see that the blunders made by the British Army (such as attacking the populace, breaking their own blockades, etc) wore them down morally and physically to the point where the colonists (and indeed the French) could smell blood. I agree on the Attrition Front. Would it be just a simple war of Attrition, the IS would indeed eventually win... but the numbers (at least until Tukayyid) speak for themselves... The clans marched, nearly unopposed, taking planets at every turn until Comstar Finally woke up to the true danger to Terra... Simply numbers is no reason to guarantee victory. Look what the Mujaheddin (spelling again?) did to the Russians (with our help)... Just a little food for thought...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
|
Greyslayer
07/15/04 06:22 PM
216.14.192.234
|
Quote:
... The bottleneck and the fact the persians took such heavy casualties was due to superior tactics, which the Greeks had, at least for that battle...
How would this apply to the clans? For one they were the attackers. They also have little concept of tactics least of all strategy, the only thing the Clans have going for them is superior technology.
Quote:
and as far as the Revolution, it was Cornwallis' Pride, more than luck or the French, that lost the Colonies for King George.
Who is more prideful? Clans or IS? I think you will find the clan's are more likely to take the prize for that one.
Quote:
I agree on the Attrition Front. Would it be just a simple war of Attrition, the IS would indeed eventually win... but the numbers (at least until Tukayyid) speak for themselves... The clans marched, nearly unopposed, taking planets at every turn until Comstar Finally woke up to the true danger to Terra...
And there lies the true reason the Clans took so many planets before being stopped (apart from FASA bs that is)... Comstar. If Comstar had chosen to help rather than hinder the IS the Clans would've been beaten back and removed as a threat from the start if they had chosen to attack the IS. Wolf Dragoons had not revealed the military power that Comstar was and the Clans would march right into a trap of epic proportions bidding 'just' enough to win a fight they didn't truly know the numbers of.
Quote:
Simply numbers is no reason to guarantee victory. Look what the Mujaheddin (spelling again?) did to the Russians (with our help)... Just a little food for thought...
Not much food in that one, Clans have no real concept on skirmishes and harrasment. In fact such tactics and strategies are completely dishonourable to the Clan military doctrine.
|
Nightward
07/16/04 03:06 AM
203.134.46.37
|
What the Clans really had going for them was the element of surprise. An unknown force with incredible technology suddenly lashed out of the Periphery, fighting in a way that was totally alien to the Inner Sphere.
The technological gap was more of a yawning abyss during the early to middle part of the Invasion (3049-3055). Units were dominated by 3025 tech, which has nothing at all on Clan equipment.
By about 3058, though, the tide has turned and an IS Regiment (with attached forces) is more or less a match for two or even three Clusters.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/16/04 11:15 AM
65.1.53.170
|
Agree on the Surprise and the Technology, even agree on the pride... But the clans also had superior Warrirors... Their Discipline and Genetics were far more disposed towards victory on the battlefield... Kindof agree on Comstar... I think Comstar Secretly wanted the same things the Clans (at least the wardens) sought: a Unified Inner Sphere, another Star League, Comstar just went about it a different way. As far as tactics, the clans were hamstrung by their honour code, but in all drawn out engagements, adaptation would occur... The Clans would learn about Geurrilla hit and fades and other "less honorable" tactics, and the IS in turn would learn about discipline under fire, not breaking tactics at the sight of a loss, etc... War is as dynamic as life itself: always changing, evolving... The Advent of IS Omni's and Clan Protomechs is evidence enough of that. More to follow...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
|
Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/16/04 11:36 PM
65.1.53.170
|
Sorry 'bout that whole cryptic "more to follow" thing... I had to deal with kids and work, ya know... Real life... It's so inconvenient some times, no? But anyways, Now I've lost the train of thought I was on... Suffice it to say that if the Clans were half the warriors they were reputed to be, they could have overcame their numerical and honour bound shortcomings a lot more quickly than the Successor States could have overcome their past predjudices (not just on the short term, I mean)... And as for Aliens... I'm a huge fan of Sci-Fi, and especially Star Wars, but I believe that aliens need not be introduced into such an already rich tapestry of stories that comprise Battletech... It's fine how it is... and if it ain't broke, don't fix it... Just thought I'd reiterate what this thread was originally about... Now then... *steps off the soapbox*...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
|
UncaRat
08/07/04 04:26 AM
172.128.75.140
|
I have a Merc unit that is non human. Think Cats (apologies to that show).
They are a colonization ship that has misjumped and ended up at the edge of human space beyond the Magestry of Canopus. At the start their are only about 5,000 of them.
They did riot control mostly on the ground, (infantry, scouting, and vehicles mostly, nothing like a mech had ever been developed), strategic control was decided in space. Little or no raiding took place. Planetary assaults however were ugly, and vital to ending any war.
I also had to develope a sketch of their culture.
Their way of life as a unit evolved into- you have a broken tech plant? We will fix it for half the increase in output. And help defend it.
They arrived in the 2980's, worked for a decade for the Magestry (setting up a mech factory away from the IS, and training the locals to run and maintain it). Became known to the IS governments in 3005 (i.e. at the start of the campaign). The players represented a group hired to "Find things out" by the Lyrans.
They were reasonably successful, and that leads into the second campaign starting in 3011 in Lyran space that ended in 3027. Where in the same thing goes on with a different group of charecters, these being combine types.
Note roleplaying aspects were Mech Warrior 3 RPG rules.
The players had a good time with it and so did I, but everyone knew it was non cannon.
The unit left for home in 3035. (planned but never played)
Perhaps the reason for the dislike for aliens in BT is that they always seem like invading menaces with no weaknesses and some major tech advantage, or they are background.
This unit was crafted to use only DS heatsinks as advanced tech, and to be a combined arms unit with lots of techs, (to build up damaged infrastructure), including infantry armed with effective jump armor (with real and effective armor against weapons up to a Zeus rifle), improved sensor capabilities, (near mech levels on scout vehicles), and effective artillery (can you say barrage? of course that was to discourage large unit attacks not so good agsainst a small mobile enemy), aeromechs armored with Ferro-Alluminium. Tough but not impossible to get arround- a challenge!
One our group dug into, connived with local disedents, spyed, and otherwise impressed me. In that world Double heatsinks were available in limited numbers from Thar-Hes in 19, and in mass production in 23. the CC and FWL a year later. The FS started late but had production at more than a dozen places by 25. The DC players managed to steal an entire tool line and relocate it in 22 allowing moderate production by mid 23.
We expected quite a war in 29 but we never played it out.
|
UncaRat
08/07/04 04:39 AM
172.128.75.140
|
Sorry I forgot to mention that they did field mechs, starting with rebuilt pirate mechs, later they built their own. they were laser, SRM and LRM friendly, but did not use or make ammo for AC-20, AC-2.
Their race did not use PPC's in ground combat but they were used in space.
Variants on some designs became standard with them, and this effected tactics.
They had lots of Aeromechs so stealth in the field was a real good idea.
The unit never fielded ANY Locust units, Wasps were used for training,before they were deployed in any great numbers, other units were evaluated after capture many were never deployed.
|
Brandx0
08/07/04 05:38 AM
24.207.34.161
|
Not really on topic of BT, but on the topic of aliens. What if we one day do manage to travel to the stars and meet another race, we always imagine ourselves as being visited or whatever, but what if we find out that WE are the most advanced race around. Most people never think of it like that, but hey, its as possible as the reverse.
|
Carthaginian
08/07/04 05:22 PM
68.119.64.226
|
Well, I would say that I pity the poor, backwards aliens that get caught under our feet. Look at the American Indians, the Tasmanians, the Maya, the Incas, the Aztecs...
Humanity is not even kind to those of our own kind who lag behind. Lord only knows what we would do to a race of aliens who lived on a planet that we wanted.
This from a devout Trek fan.
|