Requiem
07/13/21 04:28 AM
1.158.227.122
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When considering that all other industries throughout the Inner Sphere have been damaged to a vast extent – what makes the fuel industry the sole industry to have survived to enable mass production?
This is dependent upon each world’s availability to technology - some may be able to make vast quantities others must import to be sustainable …
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Those creating them are not going to waste a whole lot of money into them
Sorry but no … colonies, even a small one, will involve vast amounts of money – manpower – willpower – and hope for the future – all individual members are required – this includes Doctors and a complete suite of medical professionals, engineers ….. mechanics etc.
Even with a colony of 1,000 there most definitely will be a Doctor. Exploratory colony, for example, is an investment in the future in which professions (whose individual worth is high) to determine the long term viability …
Ships -
End of Civil War 30 Sept 2779
Operation Exodus – plans began 14 Feb 2784
8 July – Exodus Order
2 Oct – New Samarkland
5 Oct – Leaving the system
Thus we are expected to believe that between this VERY short period of thine - 15Feb and 7 July the SLDF were able to acquire the totality of logistics required to feed a vast number of people upon what should be called the voyage of the dammed then commence a new colony with all the necessary equipment … and we are also expected to believe that there was a vast amount of space to bring with them a vast number of military equipment including Mechs and Atomic weapons …
And all of this was completed in secret so that no intelligence agency belonging to any of the Houses would even notice!
Oh Please! Suspending reality this far is crossing the line over a vast distance – The original Tarzan makes more sense that what we have here!
Kerensky may run the SLDF – however it is the Govt department of Treasury and Finance that holds the Money!!!!
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League#Department_of_Revenue – Tax to collect the money and yet who spends the money?
Kerensky should have been cut off from all finances from day 1 – thus making it imperative to get the war over and done with as fast as possible rather than sitting out side for how many years twiddling his thumbs!
Of the original 100% of the SLDF Kerensky started with 95% of all forces were destroyed – thus 5% survived of this 5% - 80% of this final 5% departed with Kerensky – 20% of this 5% staked with Blake or one of the Houses! That is where 5% survived 4% went with Kerensky and 1% remained in the IS.
Thus demonstrating that Kerensky really did not know what he was doing as the final battle must have been a very close run battle right down to the last day where it was a coin toss as who would win / loose …
The PR team Kerensky maintained must have been masters at their trade to make it look that Kerensky was half way decent …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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MigneeSnoge
07/13/21 05:50 AM
46.242.15.219
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In the buzz!
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ghostrider
07/13/21 11:43 AM
45.51.181.83
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If you have the ability to cook food, you have the ability to make fuel for ICE. It is as simple as that. As I said before, moonshine can run ICE. It doesn't take high tech, such as the fusion engines need. Just like growing food. You don't need an farm mech or huge combine in order to do so. Mass producing huge amounts require some tech, as you are not talking a couple of gallons, but thousands to millions.
There will be a medic, but it may not be a full doctor. Even though they are sci fi, the movies are correct that a lot of colonies will not have even adequate medical staff. This is not true for all, but a large amount of them will be lacking, possibly for a long time after they are started.
More then a few colonies started out as simple outposts. They grew as the workers imported family, and others came to fill in other roles, or just got stranded in their travels. This would be true even in space.
To start a colony, it doesn't require plopping down a full steel industry, nor does it take having a space port. Simply booking passage on a jumpship with a single shuttle, and the shuttle does not even have to stay. Unload and it heads back.
Granted, this means having drinking water and food available, so there is some conditions for the small group start. Corporations are less likely to want families at their work site, as it means more money would be spend. Which they will normally refuse, yet they can't stop the illegal migration to their work sites. They are not going to arrest the people, and ship them back to the courts to jail them. They just up the prices of what they send to any work site, and punish the workers that way.
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Requiem
07/13/21 04:44 PM
1.158.227.122
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Yes a vehicle can run on Moonshine – that said – running on high potency hooch performance levels vary – depending upon a minimum proof level (% of alcohol) – issues include loss of power can lose 30% or more of its horsepower – leaks – rust – corrosion – ie it can damage the engine – has the engine been adjusted to account for differing combustion property - and below 40F / 4C degrees and it’s a challenge to start the vehicle because it does not burn as quickly as gasoline … can any military forces consider this viable long term?
For a military force using such a fuel source what should the limitations be added to the unit using such a fuel source?
Reduced MP – inability to tow – inability to move over rough terrain …
Increased breakdowns …
On worlds where temperature decreases to low levels – issues with mobility – unbale to even start …
Then there is the issue what happens on a world where they have to import their food?
Then there is the issue that this is a science fiction story and the protagonists have to make Hooch to run their vehicles???? Really?
Medic? …. Any major issue and your population is going to be dead - don’t worry the medic is here for all the minor issues! Sorry but any sane and serious colony is going to include a complete medical team.
Movies are just that … established for entertainment … reality is far different!
Being dropped off by a shuttle is not an outpost / colony it is being marooned.
Corporations … HR want their workers happy – increased production! Plus, how long are they out there before their rotation back to the world?
It makes for better PR if the company considers humanitarian issues rather than just the bottom-line profit initiative.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/13/21 05:11 PM
45.51.181.83
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Who said anything about the military using moonshine? There are things you can add do the fuel to make it run better, that doesn't require extremely costly things.
How did the military use ICE before and during the SL? More things ran with ICE then fusion. Even military vehicles. Mechs were the main things that almost required fusion, and even then, that was not always needed.
The end result here is that using fossil fuels, or anything an ICE will run on, is easier and cheaper to produce then equipping everything with fusion.
Might need to recheck the game rules on ICE. Engines run normally on fossil fuels. The Neptune sub in TRO 3026 shows that other fuel sources can be used, and it does say it degrades performance when using the alt fuel. Not sure why military vehicles are stuck in your mind, as the colony represents so much more then military units. Yes, it is cleaner to run a fusion plant to power everything you can, but it costs far to much in the beginning. Civilian vehicles, including work trucks and semis run on fossil fuel or alternatives. It would cost far to much to run them all on their own fusion engines. Even electric motors would not cover it, even if the game actually dealt with it. Range and power is an issue.
Octane boosters, and even gas at the pumps have things added into them to increase their potency. It is much easier to ship 1000 cases of booster, then to send the fuel with it, when it can be made at the site.
The low temperature affects ALL mechanical units, not just fueled ones. What do they do right now with units in the arctic/antarctic? Oh yeah. Block heaters and even some form of heat to keep the fuel liquid. Alcohol doesn't freeze. It is why it is used in anitfreeze.
Importing food has it's own challenges. But where does it say that there isn't any plants or even algae on the world? Most are poisonous to human life, but can be refined into fuel.
How many doctors came over on the Mayflower to establish colonies in the U.S.? Or any other colony in human history? Even outposts for the great empires of earth? They were sent after the colony was up and running.
How do you think a lot of the colonies were formed when the first exodus from Terra was done? People were fleeing from the Terran Alliance, and to be left alone, you did NOT advertise where you were going. There may have been a few traders that did keep in contact, but for the most part, you took what you could and made do. You did NOT just land a dropship and use it for the beginning of the base, for the most part.
HR wants happy workers. Executive boards and stock holders wants lots of money. Guess who wins when the workers are out of contact with everyone else.
A colony in space is far more dangerous then just forming a new city on an established world. And this is stay the colony is established to form a new world, not just some outpost to gather resources.
Everyone that joins up to do so, knows the risks. Well how do you send news of a bad condition if only the company knows you are even there? And worse, most companies will destroy any trying to get into their area.
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Requiem
07/14/21 12:00 AM
1.158.227.122
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Who said anything about the military using moonshine?
As noted above - If you have the ability to cook food, you have the ability to make fuel for ICE.
The issue with ICE is that over time they (all chemical fuel) should become obsolete and thought of as a museum piece. In all reality a more advanced ‘electric engine’ should become the standard engine within the game. All fuel can therefore be sourced through any electric generation system.
Bringing in any chemical fuel to the game will also bring in massive complications to the game – range, velocity, torque etc also the issue of storage – refuelling stations etc.
Logistics and accountancy will take over the game …
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How do you think a lot of the colonies were formed when the first exodus from Terra was done?
There was a forum established by me that went through this topic in detail.
In fleeing the Terran Alliance where did you get the ships from?
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Guess who wins when the workers are out of contact with everyone else.
The Union! – coming from an organization with 95% signed up.
Human Resource Management has found that if you produce a happy workforce productivity increases – and, as a consequence profit increases as people become invested in what they are working on and they are more likely to make suggestions as how to improve the product – thus in making a better product – more profit!
When signing up for a colony within the game you usually receive a report from the explorers who found the planet – thus you have an idea of what you are walking into!
Claim jumping in space – this is why there is a military police force …. And a central government office where claims are maintained …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/14/21 01:11 AM
45.51.181.83
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Do you understand what ICEs run off of?
This statement: The issue with ICE is that over time they (all chemical fuel) should become obsolete and thought of as a museum piece.
This suggests you don't.
And even worse, the Fuel Cell engine is just that. Using things other then oil/gas as a fuel source. The fuel cell is the closest thing to an electric motor the game uses.
Transmissions help give a vehicle the torque, power, speed and fuel millage needed. It is not perfect however. But the game already has this figured out with the speed/tonnage of unit. Overweight, and it drops the movement points of the vehicle. Land vehicles that is. Vtols and fixed wings are a little different.
Most of those leaving Terran space rented room aboard ships. Some jumped ships as they were leaving. A few large groups that could afford them, bought them. Then again more then a few colonies started out as people exploring worlds for others, and just stayed.
Your analysis for colonies had a few parts that left out facts on how things work. That was said in that forum.
The union can NOT do much if they can't be contacted, or even worse, working for the company. They will worry about those people that are in the publics eye, and leave the fight for those that everyone forgot alone. They have to pick which battles to fight, as they all can not win.
For some companies, the unions are put down by the governments. If they need titanium, or even normal iron, they will look the other way in order to get it. Even food will have most ignoring some issues. Without contact, prove otherwise.
It is true that you have some information, as long as whoever sent the scouts tells you this. But even with that, the scouts did NOT explore the whole world, nor did they find every last thing on it. And with this, if the explorer themselves are hosting the colony, they may well have left out things just to get people to go. OOOOOPS! Did I forget to mention the large tiger looking animals that attack any that go outside of this area. Just stay near the village and your fine.
And some things are seasonal, or you may have caught the best season to do the exploring. Others were formed from people just running, and got stuck on a world.
So where is the local claims office to log a deed to a location on a world? 3 months in space, jumping back to the Terran Government? And you think they will have the correct data or not allow someone else to claim the prize? Again, if they need things there, or even just get paid well, you don't have a chance to even attempt to enforce a claim. Some companies today are claiming spots on the moon and beyond, even though we can't reach it. Do you think that won't happen once you start getting to other systems? Especially when valuable resources are found?
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Requiem
07/14/21 09:41 AM
1.158.227.122
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Understand in an Electric Vehicle there is no combustion engine, fuel tank, or fuel pumps …
https://www.ubs.com/global/en/collection...-transport.html
As predicted by UBS Global … 2025 – 20% of all new cars globally will be electric, 40% by 2030, and by 2040 virtually every new car sold globally will be electric …
Thus how long after 2040 will all ICE become obsolete?
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Most of those leaving Terran space rented room aboard ships.
Sorry but no …. As stated there need to be a new class of ship for the entire exodus premise to be considered viable.
Unions – and how does management stay in contact?
When building a colony contingencies mut be built in …
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So where is the local claims office to log a deed to a location on a world?
It is under come the planets historical information … explorers went out into the void and researched planets then returned to Terra … colonists would then buy the info from the explorers and the planet and be provided a claim form … they would then leave Terra and take up residence on their new world …
Caveat Emptor – let the buyer beware!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/14/21 12:30 PM
45.51.181.83
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Nice wishful thinking by the UBS Global you quoted. For that to happen around the globe, there will have to be electric lines scattered around the poor countries in remote areas. This still isn't the case in the U.S.
And who pays for these lines to be put in? Electric companies are having fits spending money on maintaining the lines they have.
Also, there are more then a few people that will NOT give up their gas cars.
Sorry but no …. As stated there need to be a new class of ship for the entire exodus premise to be considered viable.
That statement shows a lack of real understanding. Colonists are not going to have the money to buy most dropships, much less jumpships to colonize the stars. Corporations were not as concerned about making colonies as you might believe. They might sponsor some, but they would not be paying for even half of it, much less all of it. They might agree to provide transportation services as well as trading but lock the colonists into contracts. That means they control communications as well. Especially with the Terran Alliance pull back, jumpships were the prime ways of sending messages. The HPG network was only starting to grow with the colonies. They were not in place on a lot of worlds until much later.
Buy the planet? From whom? They were not owned, but claimed. Otherwise they would have been part of the Terran Alliance still. I seriously think the periphery had any claims on file on Terra. People banded together to form NAPs, and then went from there. Most NAPs were not planned as people were colonizing. They came about when things like Pirates or the Terran Alliance started acting up. Most weapons brought with colonists were more for dealing with wild animals then warfare.
Just like colonizing on the Earth in the past, the future runs about the same way. Without some sort of alien beings, you don't pack a colony ship with ICBMs and 1000 pound bombs. Hell, most didn't even pack aircraft to even use an air dropped bomb.
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Requiem
07/14/21 04:53 PM
1.158.227.122
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Recharging Stations – suggest you read current media releases as well as individual vehicle manufacturers plans for manufacturing mass recharging stations such as Tesla … they used it for marketing to boost pre manufacture sales - tesla sold the majority of their vehicles online – they did not need showrooms ….
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/31/us-ev-ch...cture-plan.html
Once large vehicle manufacturers change the way they do business how long will it take for smaller countries to be pressured into converting over by purchasing it from the lager countries?
In the game world what this would mean is that they can use their portable generator to not only power all their energy weapons – they can also use it to power all their vehicles – increasing range as you do not have to worry about tracking a fuel vehicle – also electric engines are cleaner to work on as a great deal of petrochemical lubricants are no longer required.
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Colonists are not going to have the money to buy most dropships, much less jumpships to colonize the stars.
If any viable colony is required – they will have no choice but to – this is the price of establishing a colony. Large corporations will exist just to transfer all colonists – all their equipment – all their animals – all their seeds etc to the new worlds …. And making massive profits …
Anything else and the premise of mass colonisation falls off a cliff!
Consider the Alliance Grand Survey results - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Alliance_Grand_Survey
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Buy the planet? From whom? They were not owned
Yes they were … the explores who provided the survey reports claimed them for their company … if the colonists wanted that world they would have to pay.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Colonization_Procedure_Referendum
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Just like colonizing on the Earth in the past, the future runs about the same way.
Errr … colonization during earth’s past was a very bloody affair in which military as invariably sent - as for the local population …..
You may not pack a nuclear warheads, but you will pack massive amounts of explosives – clearing the land (civil engineering) + commencing and maintaining mining operations … and yes you would pack an aircraft of some sort – reconnaissance of your new home!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/14/21 05:39 PM
45.51.181.83
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You believe that the auto manufacturers will stop making gas vehicles? They will continue to make them no matter what. They would shift jobs to those very countries that would not be able to set up electric.
Now for game purposes, the electric cars was not introduced as it was tech beyond the 80s.
And honestly, it is a smart idea on not having everything run off electric. Knock out the main power generators, and you basically cripple the worlds economy. Yes, there will be smaller generators to power specific communities, but recharging civilian vehicles would be banned. Even military vehicles might have issues.
And last I knew of, electric cars are not immune to EMPs.
I would also think PPCs would cause major issues to any chargers.
Do you understand the concept of not buying this hugely expensive thing like a dropship or jumpship when going on a one way trip?
This statement says you don't understand this: they will have no choice but to – this is the price of establishing a colony.
It is far cheaper to pay a few hundred thousand bucks then several million on just a dropship. Big business will create nexus points, but unless they need specific resources, will not be sponsoring a lot of colonies. Those looking for a life away from their current governments, tend to be the ones to found most colonies. Even those that are light years from 'home'.
Did you think this through? You may not pack a nuclear warheads, but you will pack massive amounts of explosives
Where it is true that it would be far easier to use TNT to remove items, do you really think the government is going to allow you to take potential weapons like that with you? You will be outside of their control, subject to being more likely to revolt, as you have the means to fight back.
No. You will not buy an aircraft to recon your new home. It is far cheaper to do it by walking or using one of the few land vehicles you brought with you. You will buy what items you feel are needed, as money would be limited to most colonists. A couple of jeeps with some fuel, and without the weapons package is most likely to be what you have. Food, tools, heating oil, and things like that. Basic survival. Once you get established then the heavier items would be sent, not before. The one exception is mining companies. But then the dropship would be owned by the company and all vehicle would stay on that dropship when not in use.
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Requiem
07/15/21 01:54 AM
1.158.227.122
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You believe that the auto manufacturers will stop making gas vehicles? They will continue to make them no matter what.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles
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for game purposes, the electric cars was not introduced as it was tech beyond the 80s.
As the world recognises the importance of electric it is a wonder why new construction rules have yet to be introduced … how far has technology progressed by 3150?
EMP – Proof
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ywNpMkpt34
EMP – Electric and hybrid
Studies are still out on this topic – thus unknown - though if you base includes a built-in faraday cage there is a good chance they will survive. Also discussing vehicles 1000 years into the future so have the Clans / WOB / Comstar produced an electric vehicle that is EMP resistant?
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Do you understand the concept of not buying this hugely expensive thing like a dropship or jumpship when going on a one way trip?
Ever considered renting - transport U-trailer to Dropship?
Building is a massive trillion Bill exercise thus and corporation than can affray costs will be able to amass vast sums of monetary wealth especially if they are also attached to Jump-ships transport company – all in one service …. The government would find this very acceptable.
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do you really think the government is going to allow you to take potential weapons like that with you?
Right now permits allow individuals to purchase explosives for farms, demolition, mining etc … plus how many weapons are restricted currently? And in the future how many arms dealers will be situated at point outside governments control to sell your newly liberated colony who knows what … if you have the money and the contacts then an appointment can be arranged …
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No. You will not buy an aircraft to recon
And yet how many stations that have a vast area have aircraft / VTOL - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14YkfFt6bxY
Sorry but small VTOL craft are NOT that expensive at all …
Please remember the exodus started in the 24th Century … and not in 1700’s …. Availability to efficient and inexpensive technology should be available as well as second-hand vehicles …
Also if your colony has issues with manufacturing a bio fuel source for your vehicles wouldn’t it be safer and more efficient do not have to worry about the manufacture and storage of a bio fuel) to have a generator that can run on water as well as solar power to run all the vehicles, heaters etc?
Question – What are the NASA vehicles going to run on once they get them Mars? And what would be likely choice of vehicle if they discover a way to an earth like planet?
I do believe the answer is electric.
The only chemical engines are still rockets to escape … and yet how long until even that changes?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/15/21 03:10 AM
45.51.181.83
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Guess you don't understand that corporations and groups don't do the same thing? Even a large group will not spend the money to buy a dropship for a one way trip. Corporations will not send a dropship on a one way trip. They will reuse that ship for what ever they need. Even if it does nothing more then run supplies to new colonies. Theirs and others that will pay for it.
As the topic was for canon purposes, if it isn't in the game rules, then it doesn't matter. No matter what, I don't see the use of fuel being removed from vehicles. Cleaner burning fuel should come about in the real future, if the oil companies finally fail to bribe the governments around the world. Part of this is the Fuel Cell Engine.
Cars that are battery operated that can drive thousands of miles on a charge should come about as well.
And how many would see a VTOL worth the cost when you have to buy things like food, water (as you are not sure if all the water on the world is drinkable), clothing, building materials, fuel for electric and heat, medicine, and a whole slew of other things. All this will cost, as well as having limited space on the ship. This is also hoping the ship's crew doesn't just strand you some where and steal all of your stuff. Pocket HPGs are not available. So no. Most colonists will NOT have VTOLs and such with them. Had drones been in the game, then they would be likely.
I will say this again. The game did not have tech in it that wasn't really around in the 80s. The Mars rovers are all electric that are recharged by solar, last I knew of. There are a lot of things that should be in the game but aren't.
Just had a thought. The closest thing they would have like a VTOL would be a Jet Pack. The fuel burning kind like jump infantry have. And even then, it would be one or two. An exoskeleton for moving the heavy crates is possible, but unlikely due to costs.
All atmospheric aircraft burn fuel for propulsion in the game. Even if it is just fusion fuel for thrust. I could even say all vessels do so, but not sure if the fusion propulsion is considered a chemical or not.
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ghostrider
07/16/21 12:43 PM
45.51.181.83
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Anyone else want to discuss the possibility of the SLDF's 'losses' being in part due to 'hiding' units around the known space.
Or that the rebuilding had started making more machines, yet all those caches had stuff in them?
Would the SLDF have left those caches intact when they left?
Ideas include someone 'misplacing' them, so they could make money on them, or have been paid for in advance. Thinking they would go mercenary, and wanted a great start. Another might be a glitch or virus in the quartermasters systems that showed the units being used, yet never left the warehouses.
Another possibility is that the SLDF thought those units were active due to the above glitch and counted them as part of the invasion, yet they were not there.
This is not saying canon is incorrect, just a what if question.
Like the thought that those units in caches were reserve units for the SLDF armies that were left where they were, so they could fit all piloted ones on ships to hit Amaris. As they lost so many people, the machines were not 'needed' and left until they were about to leave, and realized they could not even move them, as they lacked the transports they had before the war.
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