Requiem
08/14/21 06:44 PM
124.184.171.41
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First Lord Simon Cameron begins his 5 year ‘good-will’ tour of the Star League, leaving his 7-year-old son Richard Cameron on Terra, thus at the next time he expected to next see his son was when he was 12-13 years old.
Question – Whom did Simon choose as his son’s legal guardian whist he was on his 5-year ‘good-will’ tour?
ie whom did he allow to make health and education decisions etc.
As during the Throne Room Massacre we know that at that time there were 79 surviving members of House Cameron - thus there must be family members alive circa 2750.
As, there is absolutely no way he would leave this in the hands of person such as Kerensky ….
So, what this also means is that the Council of lords must have overridden Simon’s wishes when they appointed Aleksandr Kerensky as Richard’s Guardian – and made him Regent.
Was he removed from family members and placed in the Palace alone at age 8? all in the name of state security?
and as Kerensky went along with this what does this say about him - a General willing to crush a young boy's life for that of the state?
So, why didn’t another member of House Cameron step forward - deny the Council of Lords their choice as Regent and appoint one of their own as Regent - as family should look after family?
There is a back story here that has yet to be considered!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
08/16/21 03:35 AM
124.184.171.41
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https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nighthawk
Production year 2720
Amaris Civil War 27866 to 2780
As Amaris’ forces have complete access to ALL Terran Hegemony Military Industrial Facilities – wouldn’t this also dictate that Amaris has access to Nighthawk Light Power Armor?
Also as Kerensky no longer has access to the Terran Hegemony at the Start of the War this would also dictate he was unable to manufacture / obtain spare parts (in any quantity) for his military?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force
Section 4
“The SLDF had thousands of military bases and supply depots spread throughout known space; each inhabited world was home to at least one of these installations.”
“hundreds, potentially thousands, of secret bases were also constructed.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Border_Guards_Agreement
2572, October 17 – Border Guards Agreement
A treaty allowing the Star League Defence Forces to establish military bases throughout the Inner Sphere by allowing the Star League to purchase lands on any Member State world to establish military bases throughout the Inner Sphere to provide the SLDF unrestricted range. Economic limitations, however, restricted their number.
As The Star League were required to pay for these facilities and they are upon “each inhabited world was home to at least one of these installations” - there appears to be a very large financial bill owing to every Great House?
And as there are “hundreds, potentially thousands, of secret bases were also constructed.”, did the Great Houses receive any compensation for these facilities?
Also when did each Great House become aware of these facilities – “Sword of Damascus Facilities” lurking within every Great Houses Back Yard …. Sub rosa
As wouldn’t this indicate that the First Lord and his SLDF did not trust their Council Lords and their Great Houses / Military?
If this was the case wouldn’t every House Lord have a minor apoplexy regarding the issue of hidden facilities?
Wouldn’t it be reasonable to expect that the DC would have threatened to leave the SL on this point alone?
Also, by extension wouldn’t this initiate a “Shadow War” between the Intelligence Departments of the SLDF Vs Every Houses’ own Intelligence Departments concerning locating all of these hidden facilities? And by extension wouldn’t every House be initiating their own Hidden Base policy to hide their shadow forces from the SLDF -if they no longer trust us and expect us to rebel one day wouldn’t it be prudent to prepare for a possible war with the SLDF as that is exactly what they are doing by placing hidden bases everywhere?
If so where is the details about this hidden War? Or should we just create our own Alt history version?
Multiple wars in the Shadows between a SLDF secret black ops unit that no one within the SLDF would recognise and every Great House Military aim to find / conceal all hidden facilities ….
Also in the far future (Second / Third Succession War - 3025ish) with the fall of technology - if there was a SLDF facility where “each inhabited world was home to at least one of these installations.” – then did every world conduct an extensive search of their planet? I would assume a Satellite was used …. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovatio...ward-180961120/
And wouldn’t this make for an exciting non-war game as per my forum in the past – every house has their own archaeologist team, similar to Snord’s Irregulars – just existing much earlier ….?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/16/21 12:58 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is a thread that asked who was in charge of Richard's upbringing, and it was all laid at Kerensky's feet. It was stated that others had been assigned to deal with Richard, while Kerensky was in the Periphery. It was ignored and said Kerensky was at fault. Funny how things are starting to change.
Kerensky was a main whos loyalty was to the throne, not the person that sat on it. As he did not see himself as the leader, he would not try and take that power. And now the kicker. Kerensky put the lives of everyone in the SL ABOVE the life of a single child. Hmmmmm..
Thousands of depots across the IS, and yet it is suggested that all of them were stripped of personnel in order to attack Amaris. This was addressed in other threads, yet the logic of doing this was said to be true. The logic: none of the bases had guards left to do their job of guarding the bases.
With Amaris in charge of the SL industry base, it was said there is no way for Amaris to upgrade his forces. See the problem with this logic now?
Question: How does a base remain hidden if the nation that it sits in, are compensated for the lands used to make such a base?
Each nation would have a problem if they found a hidden base in their realms. Finding them is the key.
Again, the SL was providing security to the IS nations, allowing them to put more funds towards infrastructure of their nations. By not being forced into having millions of soldiers ready for war that the SL was supposed to prevent, the waste of money was not there. As ALL entities were supposed to follow the same rules, there would be no sneak attacks of large size, and it would be met with SL forces along with the nations.
There will always be a 'shadow' war when intel departments are working. ANY, and I mean any, spy found that isn't the nations, will create an issue. Part of why counter intelligence departments are made. You should always be on the look out and removal of foreign agents. As well as trying to make headway into their nation's secrets.
As stated before, those SL facilities that were known were raided at the beginning of the 1st war. As others were found, they to were raided. Given Comstars secret mission, it is very likely that anytime a nation tried to start building advanced tech, it was leaked to other nations, so they could take it out. Barring that, framing another nation by using Comstars own forces would happen. Where I do believe that there would ALWAYs be some examples of advanced tech that should be usable to recover that tech, or have some storage of that knowledge elsewhere, the developers did a poor job in retconning that information in. Any research facility working with advanced tech, like say the development of the Devastator mech, would have several gauss riffles and such laying around, this would give the finders some tech to work with.
Given the need for secrecy, I don't think the finders would use Comstar to send a message that some was found.
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Requiem
08/16/21 05:51 PM
124.184.171.41
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There is a thread that asked who was in charge of Richard's upbringing, and it was all laid at Kerensky's feet.
Yes, I do agree there is a previous thread that considered the Canon version of events – whereby, as a single man, Aleksandr Kerensky as Commander-in-Chief of the SLDF, had been thrusted the additional position of Regent and Protector of the Star League as well as the duty and responsibility of bringing up an 8-year-old boy to one day rule the Star League.
Then there is this thread – where we consider Simon, prior to his 5-year good will tour, and as a father of a then 7-year-old boy, whether he would appoint guarantor ad litem from his family. Thus subsequently, upon his assassination, the Council Lords and Aleksandr Kerensky all agree to override Simon’s wishes when it comes to his son’s future welfare.
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Kerensky was a main whose loyalty was to the throne, not the person that sat on it.
Problem with this is his Canon history and who said he should be the next Commander-in-Chief of the SLDF.
As a Captain at the time of Commanding General Ikolor Fredasa he saw firsthand what happened to a Commanding General who placed throne first – person who sits in it second – with a view that the SLDF must act as per its remit to protect the Star League no mater the lack of orders of the person who sits on the throne – he was hanged in ignominy for treason and not by firing squad as per his rank and position demanded.
Then as Aide to the person who hanged Commanding General Ikolor Fredasa – the now Commanding General Rebecca Retldral – who’s personal guarantee that he would complete the job she couldn’t – to protect Terra from Simon’s paranoid dream that Terra would burn – A person who placed person who sits in it FIRST and throne and Star League SECOND. Thus, the ONLY way he could become Commanding General is if he agreed to Rebecca’s point of view! Ruler first – Throne and Star League Second.
He then subsequently purged the SLDF Officer Corp ...
So, in all reality, given his past historical actions, he once again returned to form and placed power, the people who ruled, First (now the Council of Lords: The Lords of the Great Houses) – above that of the Throne and Star League, and by placing the Star League second, he also placed Richard Second – and what did the Star League get out of this? A weak and ineffectual Leader of the Star League.
Thus, he put power first above that of a single child – what happens in a military state when the Lord of a Realm is weak and ineffectual, and his Lords are very strong and effective (‘sharks’)?
Whereas if we adopt a premise of a triumvirate there is a very high probability that the young Richard would have been a stronger more effectual leader as he would not have grown up alone, desiring a friend / father figure (as we see in Amaris).
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Thousands of depots across the IS, and yet it is suggested that all of them were stripped of personnel in order to attack Amaris.
In all reality – considering the vast size of the SLDF – this is the ONLY means by which the SLDF can obtain the logistics required.
The logic: the base guards stripped the depo of everything they could – sealed the depo shut with explosives – then proceeded to join Kerensky in his crusade. Which satisfies future events – finding evacuated and hidden depos buried under mountains of rock.
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With Amaris in charge of the SL industry base, it was said there is no way for Amaris to upgrade his forces. See the problem with this logic now?
It was said that it took Amaris 2-years to gain access to the computer system to gain control of the planetary defence weapons.
It was said that from day one – his forces gained control over the Terran Hegemony Military Industrial Complex – as this is the ONLY way his forces can expand to such a size as to inflict such damage as was sustained upon the SLDF.
Thus, YES Amaris’ forces would have gained control over the Nighthawk power armour – the only way Amaris could not have, is if the manufacture of them was outside the Terran Hegemony – and this goes against the Mother Doctrine – not to mention in all probability a Great House will end up with the plans to manufacture them as you are now using foreign plants to manufacture them.
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Finding them is the key.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force
“Hundreds, potentially thousands, of secret bases were also constructed. SLDF engineers went to great lengths to construct these hidden bases: leveling mountains, draining lakes, building islands in the middle of oceans”
Mega-civil-engineering upon such a vast scale of worlds will produce waves – logistics / personnel etc – wouldn’t every Great House attempt to keep track of every SLDF unit within their realm – when a massive number of engineering units disappear for long periods of time it wouldn’t take a genius to realise they are up to something.
Then if you have an old planetary survey from a satellite and you compare it with a new one and you send in a recon team, and when they come back with definitive proof of even just one – logic will dictate they are making more than one. The question then becomes academic – how many engineering units have gone missing – in what areas did they go missing – for how long they went missing – can we track their logistics requests / food requests such as concrete / ration packs, quantity of water etc …
These logistics ‘waves’ can be tracked!
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Again, the SL was providing security to the IS nations, allowing them to put more funds towards infrastructure of their nations.
Except for the fact there is a Tithe system in place – The Star League Accords required every Great Houses’ Military Industrial Complexes to provide the SLDF with a massive quantity of materials first – any surplus there-after could then go to the Houses’ military …
So, the money that was supposed to be going to the people and the infrastructure of the nation was actually going to the Military Industrial Complex in order to shore up the SLDF – how else did it get so vast so quickly?
The Periphery, Great Houses and the Terran Hegemony are just one large pyramid Scheme with the First Lord at the top!
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As ALL entities were supposed to follow the same rules, there would be no sneak attacks of large size
And yet how many shadow wars were there – how many civil wars (FWL etc)– how many wars did the SLDF just ignore – FS Vs CC for example …
If all were supposed to follow the rules then why was the Council edit of 2650 enacted to limit the size of every Military force to less than 1% of the SLDF over time?
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There will always be a 'shadow' war when intel departments are working.
Er … NO …. Intelligence gathering is one thing, actively hunting and killing is another … (Comstar Vs Fed Comm for example during their shadow war and post shadow war) any spy found will create an opportunity to provide them with counterintelligence and to provide the enemy with no end of junk intel. You do not have to always remove them when you can use them.
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As stated before, those SL facilities that were known were raided at the beginning of the 1st war.
Yes I agree.
Problem is however, the 1st Succession War has not yet occurred – this issue is during the waning years of the Star League prior to the Amaris Coup.
The issue is, as a Great Lord, you have just found the SLDF with their hand in the cooky jar (manufacturing hidden military facilities) within your realm thus posing a massive security issue to your realm – so what are they going to do next unless you stop them here and now! Little by little the Star League and the First Lord has chipped away at the power of the Great Lords so where do you draw the line? When the First Lord states that there is no more need for borders and the Great Lords as there is but one Star League?
Which is a real possibility …
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Given Comstars secret mission, it is very likely that anytime a nation tried to start building advanced tech, it was leaked to other nations, so they could take it out
This is the era of the Star League not the Succession Wars.
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Given the need for secrecy, I don't think the finders would use Comstar to send a message that some was found.
Unless it was heavily encrypted.
But again, this is during the age of the Star League – thus HPG communication is …?
And ships have them built in, there was no one organisation who knew how to build and use them (as there would post Amaris) – there were in reality a massive number during the Star League Era (as there are today) thus making it difficult to restrict communications.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/16/21 07:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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So the house lords changed plans for Richards upbringing while Kerensky lead the SLDF in the periphery. The people that were there to teach Richard failed, so this makes it the army leader that is off fighting with his troops at fault? Isn't the fact he wouldn't be in charge of his training, Kerensky had others doing the job they were hired for? Those vetted by the SL government to say they could do the job properly? So that would mean the entire government failed.
Purging the military of those that are suspected of harboring ideas that the leader considers bad, or worse, harmful towards their leadership is nothing new. It happens more often then not. Given how poorly those in the military and government were doing at the time, it isn't a surprise a change was needed. This is not saying those replacements were better, but it is not something unheard of, or even uncommon. Richard tried to purge the IS of the house leaders. Hmmm...
Kerensky put the throne above the child only since the child was supposed to be in good hands with those assigned to teach him. The fact they were put there by others doesn't mean anything, as Kerensky was more concerned with dealing with the Periphery then a child. Sounds like something he did with his own children, yet his wife dealt with their upbringing. Isn't that normal with humans? The mother tends to deal with that, while the father goes off to work? Kinda of sexist thinking as society continues this trend.
But yet it seems those depots were still active after the Amaris war, and were used to supply the exodus fleet of resources. So something is wrong with the concept of all of those depots being stripped and destroyed. The houses got their military supplies from somewhere, as more then 50 or so regiments of units were used in each nation to fight the 1st war.
Funny. You push hidden and secret facilities yet state that the Nighthawk power armor had to be made in the TH. Do you see the logic conflict here? They had hidden WARSHIP facilities. Making power armor factories in secret, considering mech production facilities were hidden, seem very trivial.
wouldn’t every Great House attempt to keep track of every SLDF unit within their realm
Key word, attempt.
These logistics ‘waves’ can be tracked!
Was told that you can not follow the 'waves' to hidden bases. So which is it?
Now who runs the update on map making? Someone from the SL intel department? Maybe override the current camera running to include old data? Or make is so the terrain doesn't look touched? Maybe even building a small factory and expanding the facility underground so you don't see it from orbit? Even things like restricted airspace to prevent someone from even trying, which would include any satelites being shot down that violate that. Simple grown a forest over the work area will change the area without giving away what is underground. You could make a freaking amusement park located on top of a major facility.
Sending money to have someone else guard your facilities verses you paying someone yourself has always been an issue. Sending the SL so much to cover buying, maintaining, and paying those units to guard your facility is cheaper in the long run then doing it yourself. As next year, when you pay for it again, they have more units to spread out to cover more area. And with your limited production facilities, they can provide far more units then you can.
The governments of today hire outside companies to run things like transit systems, garbage disposal, power, water, and all sorts of other things. Why would you do so if it wasn't cheaper? Government wages tend to be higher then private worker wages.
Also in the far future (Second / Third Succession War - 3025ish) with the fall of technology - if there was a SLDF facility where “each inhabited world was home to at least one of these installations.” – then did every world conduct an extensive search of their planet?
As stated before, those SL facilities that were known were raided at the beginning of the 1st war. As others were found, they to were raided. Given Comstars secret mission, it is very likely that anytime a nation tried to start building advanced tech, it was leaked to other nations, so they could take it out.
This is the era of the Star League not the Succession Wars.
Not sure why you said it was in the SL era, not the succession wars. Sentence context seems to be missing again.
Now there lays a major issue. Comstar being the only one that had access to the HPG network is erroneous. All of those mobile HPG units would not be in the hands of Comstar, as they would have house run units as well. The fact that not a single one of them remained or was found after Kerensky left is a huge logic hole. The fact that techs on New Avalon, Luthien, Tharkad and many other worlds has fallen thru the cracks. It would also make sense that border worlds would have had units on them that weren't part of the SL to report any incursions that the HPG network might 'ignore'. So TPTB basically sunk themselves by retconning the mobile and smaller HPG units.
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Requiem
08/16/21 09:47 PM
124.184.171.41
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First – there are two different threads from different Forums.
In this thread the idea is there should be a member of House Cameron or one of the branch families that should have been chosen as guarantor ad litem for Richard prior to his fathers ‘Good Will’ tour (expected to last 5 years).
It is very clear what happened to Richard if Kerensky remains as Regent – where there appears to be no family guarantor ad litem.
So yes Kerensky, as head of the government, epically failed Richard and the Star League.
Whereas if there was a guarantor ad litem for Richard there can be an argument made that he would have been far better off (psychologically) long term.
Purging the military creates dissenters.
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yet his wife dealt with their upbringing.
Problem is their upbringing involved being a part of a resistance movement cell that was continually being hunted by Amaris forces in Moscow for the first 13-15 years of their life – ie no childhood whatsoever.
Then when their father arrived, he shunned them publicly – rather than saying this is my wife and two children he decided to hide them away as if he was ashamed of them.
I’m no child psychologist but even to me this seems to be very messed up!
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Depos active after the Amaris War
The writings suggest only those within the Terran Hegemony are still operational and those are the ones maintained by Amaris forces.
Outside of the Terran Hegemony, within the Great Houses, there is nothing to say (that I have found to date) these were re-opened by SLDF.
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Nighthawk
Where else can a valuable piece of one-off technology for the SLDF Special Forces be made except for than within the Terran Hegemony?
My Hidden Warship facility idea was for illegally increasing the size of Great House Fleets – as this is the only way this can occur.
The Nighthawk armour is legal and is used for their special forces – ie it can be built within the Terran Hegemony, within a Military Industrial Complex and still remain a secret. There is absolutely no reason to go to the added expense of creating a hidden manufacturing facility off-world the armour does in no way require this amount of security.
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Key word, attempt.
There are vast numbers of engineering units – thus tens of thousands of people – thus the idea they cannot be tracked and questioned seems a little ridiculous.
Logistic Waves – purchase requisitions for everything …. This needs to be in writing and must be stored away for audits / analysis etc. Invoice shipping logs for the units in question – high storage of food quantities above the norm equates to field exercise etc anything above this they are up to something that will take time to complete … then there are any other requests made for at the same time. Add it all together and yes it does paint a picture as to what they are up to.
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Now who runs the update on map making?
How about military intelligence – Cartography unit – as you do want to know about the world your unit has been sent to garrison / invade prior to the mission – or do you want it to be a surprise, maps should be available in the spaceport gift shop, shouldn’t they?
Restricted Airspace – does this include restricted Space above the construction zone?
As during the Clan invasion didn’t one poor battle for the clans involve a observatory on the moon telling the local general what they were up to – or how about the old U2 aircraft camera only – what would happen if a Dropship was fitted with advanced communication / cameras etc ?
Aerial / space based observation has been used for how long now?
In this game - For the SLDF to win it must win every time for the IS to win they just need win once. Where there are hundreds if not thousands of opportunities this does not appear difficult.
Also, if the SLDF started shooting down civilian satellites this will create red flags.
Also, forests take how long to grow – 50-years plus depending on the species.
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paying those units to guard your facility is cheaper in the long run then doing it yourself.
pay for and build all the weapons systems.
then accept foreign soldiers on your soil.
then give then the weapons you built any excess amounts can go to the regulars …
then expect them to loyal.
This is the definition of an occupying security force, that the local government is paying for rather than the occupying government.
Thus they now have control over all important facilities rather than the local regulars.
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Why would you do so if it wasn't cheaper?
Question: Which foreign government would the USA trust to act as their military in times of crisis because it is cheaper than having your own military?
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Given Comstars secret mission, it is very likely that anytime a nation tried to start building advanced tech, it was leaked to other nations, so they could take it out.
How did that work out for the Helm memory Core on New Avalon? How about triple strength Myomer? How about the Hatchetman or Wolfhound? Sorry but no Comstar was not able to stop human development …
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Sentence context seems to be missing again.
Because everything that was being discussed from the original thread was from the Star League Era.
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The fact that not a single one of them remained or was found after Kerensky left is a huge logic hole.
The fact that there were space battles involving hundreds of ships on both sides during the succession wars and believing they had to rely upon the pony system for communication is the huge logic hole.
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It would also make sense that border worlds would have had units on them that weren't part of the SL to report any incursions that the HPG network might 'ignore'.
Reservist or guards units – weekend warrior units … who can use the planetary HPG to send a message …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/17/21 01:00 AM
45.51.181.83
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Did Amaris and his troops even know about Kerensky's wife and children? Did their mother even tell them Alexander Kerensky was their father? I believe both were born while he was in the periphery.
So Kerensky didn't blow up the depots in the IS to seal them after raiding them to attack the TH? And it doesn't sound like he did so when he left the IS. This would also mean having guards there to keep pirates, raiders and possibly mercs and house units from stealing things left behind. Which is why losing 95% of all forces can't be accurate. If so, that means there were no forces left on Terra when liberated, as so many would be stuck in guard duty, not only on known bases, but the hidden ones as well. So the canon numbers have to be off, or some special note is needed.
Wasn't talking your hidden warship facilities. Camelot Command was set up to deal with warships. There isn't a reason why the Nighthawks couldn't have been made there or the other thousands of bases around the IS. Just resources sent in, and all manufacturing was done on site. As the SL had so many transports and such, and could move their intel agents around without an issue, there is no real reason why they couldn't move parts and such as well. The Condor Dropship states you can hide items in the wings for smuggling purposes. Who is to say they didn't have hidey holes in other ships? Even just transferring such items to their warships and jumping them.
As the SL wasn't hurting for ships like the IS was during the succession wars, it was more likely they did deep space/non system meetings to transfer items. Who is to say that behemoth dropship left with 100k tons of ore, and arrived at all of their destinations with the 100k tons of ore? This is part of clandestine operations. With all the ships going places, the SL isn't likely to have them all known at all times. Otherwise any sort of assault is doomed from the start.
I would figure in the time of orbital bombardments, space will be restricted as well. Even to the point of shutting down all non escorted traffic until projects are done or beyond. Given the fact that during the SL time, it isn't likely the worlds were overflowing with people living on them. Simple operations, like removing mountains to create more farm lands could have been cover stories for building facilities in areas. Even Terraforming plants can hide a lot.
Military intelligence. Whose? It is likely the SL was in charge of doing the map making, as they would have the most up to date systems to do it. Does that mean they would fudge areas they didn't want to be known? Possibly. Depends on how well known and how many people actually live in the area.
You miss major points in the game. You say 50 years for growing trees. That isn't so in the real world now, but with advanced technology, things like gene splicing and other tech can cause trees to grow faster, just like crops. And this is also suggesting they didn't use young trees to start with. With the right planning, you have trees being grown locally, so they can be transplanted when needed. Part of what general contractors do with building things. They organize things to the right parts are there at the right time.
When you hire security guards to guard say a construction yard, do you supply weapons and such? Do you say they have to do everything you want? Or do they have their own orders and get supplied from the company they work for? Now apply that to other nations. You would have your company of infantry, but have the larger machines there by 'supposed' allies to provide the punch and not pay for it, IF you can actually purchase those units. Again, you were limited to so many units, yet you have an entire nation to guard. You are going to refuse someone else guarding most of it for you? It isn't a great idea, but what can you do?
Which foreign government would the USA trust to act as their military in times of crisis because it is cheaper than having your own military?
The thing is, the SL is the U.S. for the most part, while the houses are the foreign governments. The houses lacked the tech the SL had, and with the limits on what they could own, were in a position that they could either deal with it, or go without.
Sorry but no Comstar was not able to stop human development …
Not stop, but hamper. It was only after the rush to destroy one another that things slowed down enough to take stock on HOW tech was being repressed. This made it harder for Comstar to do their evil deeds. And with that, the FC didn't find out it was Comstar, though they pretty much suspected it.
The Hatchetman and Wolfhound did not have any new technology in them. They were new units using old tech. It wasn't like they had Endo Steel or ER lasers. There were a few new mechs created that were not messed with. Only advanced tech being surpressed.
Then why did you post: Also in the far future (Second / Third Succession War - 3025ish) with the fall of technology - if there was a SLDF facility where “each inhabited world was home to at least one of these installations.” – then did every world conduct an extensive search of their planet?
This was NOT about the SL era, which is why the response didn't follow the time frame.
rely upon the pony system for communication is the huge logic hole.
When did this happen? During the 4th war is the only time I can think of anyone relying on the pony express. Otherwise, Comstar was used.
But the original statement was that mobile HPGs were in use, so the concept of Comstar being the only ones that knew how to use or make the HPG was off. The black boxes are even more retconned things to destroy the timeline.
I would think several important worlds would have had fleets of the Mobile HPGs, so the ability to use them would not have been lost. Even the Tech to rebuild them would not have been Comstar only tech. So again, the statement of: So TPTB basically sunk themselves by retconning the mobile and smaller HPG units.
Seems valid.
The border guards would have had their own HPG units working, to make sure Comstar wasn't working against them, or that they were even in control of the HPG network. It wasn't long after Comstar was formed the canon succession wars started. It would be questionable on trusting them to be neutral at that time.
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Requiem
08/17/21 08:22 AM
124.184.171.41
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No – Amaris never came to know about Kerensky’s Wife and Children.
Yes – They did know Kerensky was their father.
Nicholas – 4 May 2764 – Conception – late July / early August 2763 –
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Taxation_Edict_of_2763
“The taxation Edict of 2763 caused the Crisis requiring the SLDF and Aleksandr Kerensky to move away from the Terran Hegemony”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Richard_Cameron_(28th_c.)
“He ordered General Kerensky to enforce this edict with his troops.”
No definitive date as to when he was ordered to the Periphery.
Andery – 9 November 2766 – Conception – late January / early February 2766 –
Problem - December 26, 2766 – Amaris Coup d’etat
Thus, his wife must have been in the Periphery at the time of his conception with a very young Nicholas.
Also considering the time commercial vessels would have taken to reach Terra must also be factored into the equation as when she left him for Terra. How this slipped passed everyone’s security / intelligence gathering ability remains a mystery – also why she returned to Terra: Moscow also remains a mystery as there must have been a safe and comfortable world within proximity that was used by other high-ranking officers for their spouses.
Depos within the Great Houses – sealed off prior to / during the Amaris Coup – as 95% of the SLDF lost during the Coup all reserves must have been called up by the end – thus during is the only logical verdict.
Depos within the Terran Hegemony – plundered by the Great Houses post Amaris Coup.
And yes, the 95% loss depletion is accurate. What this means is the remaining SLDF is now equal in size / lower than all the Great House Military Units combined. Though their Navy is still slightly larger (maybe).
Nighthawks Manufacturing – no information available. However rational would suggest it should be within the Terran Hegemony as it is used for their special infantry forces.
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With all the ships going places, the SL isn't likely to have them all known at all times.
Considering the number of Recharge Stations available / warehouse / drop-ship ports within the Inner Sphere you could track ships movements – not in real time – but you can create a map and track them.
Also, all warships / civilian ships should have a IFF and names / classes can also be tracked – again not in real time but they can be tracked - if they are taking a dedicated route.
Again, why would an invasion fleet move from A to B on a dedicated highway? Wouldn’t they be using non-standard jump points once they reach a point of no return?
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Simple operations, like removing mountains to create more farmlands could have been cover stories for building facilities in areas. Even Terraforming plants can hide a lot.
Since when was this ever considered simple?
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It is likely the SL was in charge of doing the map making
Highly unlikely - Each Great House government would have a dedicated department attached to every military where all civilian explorer agencies would have to record their claims to recognise any legal ownership.
I would also suggest this would also have been noted within the Star League Accords – sharing of information - navigational hazard - mutual economic prosperity.
As for fudging maps – cardinal sin within deep space that could never be forgiven by anyone.
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gene splicing and other tech can cause trees to grow faster, just like crops
Yes it is possible – however given that if it is widely used throughout the IS - wouldn’t it be easy to recognise that an area of land has been replanted with a species fast growing trees.
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They organize things to the right parts are there at the right time.
Problem – this is space and the distance between a normal contractor and the warehouse is just a little bit larger – months larger.
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When you hire security guards to guard say a construction yard
So a Great Houses security now equates to the same level of security required for a construction yard?
You could actually build a military and a rapid deployment Marine unit that could actually defend the entirely of the realm – given the funds and the technology a large enough navy can accomplish this with just a few thousand warships.
As during the Star League era there should be way more than this in merchantman jump-ships alone for each House.
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The thing is, the SL is the U.S. for the most part, while the houses are the foreign governments.
I would have said something similar to the series Expanse …
First Lord = Secretary-General of the United Nations
Star League = United Nations
SLDF = UN Peace Keepers (on steroids)
Federated Suns = USA
Lyran Commonwealth = Germany / Europe etc
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The houses lacked the tech the SL had, and with the limits on what they could own, were in a position that they could either deal with it, or go without.
Or what every other country did … reverse engineer it whist looking for ways to improve upon the base model – eg.
Take one British Motorcycle – reverse engineer it ang give it an electric start and you have a superior bike that sold more units ….
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Hamper?
This is another massive black hole of information – to what extent, as if Comstar’s agents were caught even once the furore this would produce …..
Hatchetman – detachable escape head rather than just the seat as per a fighter?
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This was NOT about the SL era, which is why the response didn't follow the time frame.
For hidden bases – this could mean both.
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rely upon the pony system for communication is the huge logic hole
As stated – if Warship fleets do not have HPG then how is one fleet supposed to communicate with another when there are mass fleet engagements of 100 to 300 plus warships occurring ? how do they know they are not jumping into a trap? – in the absence of a HPG on board your flag ship you are back to pony express!
All ship building facilities should have a dedicated HPG manufacturer sub division just as they did with all communications systems during the era of the Star League. This just makes common sense!
Thus if Comstar wanted to be the only manufacturer they would have had to destroy every single manufacture at every shipyard as well as all information /personnel at the same time.
And I agree it is Valid.
And yes every border military should have their own HPGs – however for this to be valid Comstar is now a multiple companies within every House as a division of that House’s government. Thus the idea of ComStar / interdictions is now no longer valid – it also means that Terra is now up for grabs and will become the most fought over planet – and unless everyone agrees no WMDs on Terra it will be a Dead world sometime during the 1st Succession War.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/17/21 12:32 PM
45.51.181.83
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Again, why would an invasion fleet move from A to B on a dedicated highway? Wouldn’t they be using non-standard jump points once they reach a point of no return?
You answer the question of how the SL would do things like secret bases. This is the era that using non standard jump points on a regular basis. They were not worried about losing one of the few remaining ships working. They had plenty. Also, ships can run dark. There is no reason why they could not have their IFF turned off. Or have a set of fake IFF codes they used to throw off someone trying to track them. Such as Comstar used to land their forces at the NAIS for their raid. If not for Hanse, no one would know the dropship they were using was not the one the IFF said it was.
For the SL, a lot of complex things was simple compared to today. Granted the mountains was a big exxagerated. It could have been some hills with a lake or some such thing. Even just terracing a hillside could cover the work.
wouldn’t it be easy to recognise that an area of land has been replanted with a species fast growing trees.
Remember the statement dealt with planting a forest. That would probably be lead by conservationists saying the project was being done, so it would be expected to have a new forest in the area. It isn't like you are going to try and plant a forest in an area that was desert just before it was done.
The longer distances is why you have to have a good general manager of a construction site. Having all the parts sent when needed, means knowing the distance and time it will take to get there. Barring some sort of accident, you do have a pretty standard timetable for parts being moved from planet A to planet B in the SL time. And this is if you have to move them from world to world.
given the funds and the technology a large enough navy can accomplish this with just a few thousand warships.
This is why the SL was used for security. The funds for the houses was a big thing. Peace time and projects that needed to get done would mean not funneling money into a military that was not needed. Given the time needed to move units, a single rapid response forces could NOT cover the entire region of the CC. Even a hundred would be difficult, and this would be basically a battalion level unit for each. The concept of thousands of SL depots would mean each having forces that would be used on local scales, while the houses could have some forces scattered among the worlds with SL forces on them. Also factor in that there were more worlds inhabited then the game has when it first came out. Worlds were not destroyed by war at this point. And this isn't even touching the small colonies on things like asteroids and very hostile environmental worlds.
So the SL would effectively be an effective U.N. for the purpose of providing security troops? The question of would you trust them to provide security for your realm doesn't have the same power to it. Would you rather spend 1 billion on someone securing your borders or 2 billion on your own troops? Your troops have the old musket weapons while the security troops have tanks, A-10s, and battleships?
How many countries in the world today build Abrahms tanks? Even building Hummers? Most either buy from the 'super' powers or just stick with the basics. The IS would be in the same boat. Yes, they would have a few units with the higher tech equipment, but for the most part, they would stick with the lower end toys. Normal rifles, not the big baddies, but ones that were used for hunting, would be normal. Equipment that can be made into war machines would be more useful when they can be used for every day projects.
Even the simple fusion engine. Most worlds would not be able to make one, and I would think a few of the parts would be severely restricted. Even the house lords would not want just anyone being able to make weapons of war, as they have to worry about someone else trying to take over.
Hatchetman – detachable escape head rather than just the seat as per a fighter?
Still nothing new. Just using current tech in a different way. Aerofighters use this tech. Now if it was able to launch and land on an enemy with explosive results, then they would have done something.
The fact that there were space battles involving hundreds of ships on both sides during the succession wars and believing they had to rely upon the pony system for communication is the huge logic hole.
This is the statement you made, which had me respond about the only time it was known the pony express was relied upon during the big wars.
The fact is that ships would have to have some reliable form of HPG communications. So yes. Before they retconned in the ships carrying HPGs, this would be accurate.
how do they know they are not jumping into a trap?
I forget the class of warship, but when the Ion-Lithium batteries came out the Monmouth was used to jump into a system, detect the fleet waiting in ambush then jumped back to the invading fleet and warned them of the trap. They invaders then jumped to the other jump point.
I do agree that all ship yards should have had HPGs on them as well as a lot of high end ships, even non military yahcts. I would think the ship that carried the first lord would have one as well.
I was talking about before Comstar became an entity. Each house would have had their own sub network of HPGs, as the only other alternative was the SL communications department. Which I think would have come AFTER the exodus from Terra. So the coms network would have had to have been in place BEFORE the SL came about. Might not have been huge, but should have had something. And I doubt the houses would have given it up, as having their own coms made it easier to bypass other houses learning information being sent on their own coded networks.
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Requiem
08/17/21 08:45 PM
124.184.134.200
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They are not worried about losing ships as during the Star League era they can determine the exact location of the ship and then dispatch a mobile ship-yard ship that can then repair the damaged ship anywhere.
Considering how important ships are for any space faring societies, I would have thought that during every age there must be such a ship that can repair any other ship – if required.
It would be negligence not to have them.
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For the SL, a lot of complex things was simple compared to today
This is one of the massive black holes of the game – when can we say that any society has all the same knowledge and capabilities of the Star League?
The Clans should have all the knowledge of the Star League as they must have taken it with them when Kerensky departed the Inner Sphere – thus they should be more advanced, shouldn’t they?
And when can the IS have this same knowledge – post Huntress when Bulldog and Serpent annihilated the Smoke Jaguars and seized their Home-world?
Shortly-thereafter, the Inner Sphere should have been on the same level as the Clans – post Star League Technology and ability
And yet what do we get? More of the same boring … except for the WOB who finally make things interesting once more … and then that got nerfed … again a massive disappointment!
When will the Inner Sphere be able to say they are at Star League Technological level?
As for constructing and hiding a hidden base – a construction manual needs to be produced.
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This is why the SL was used for security
The Star league was never as altruistic as it was made out to be … a more accurate analogy would be the Star League used the SLDF for stand over tactics … extortion and compliance …
The Council Edict 2650 and the mass production of hidden military facilities were established for one reason - to ensure that no Great Houses’ military could ever rival that of the SLDF … as the Cameron Family feared being replaced!
I agree a single rapid response force can not cover an entire region – however when the concept of multiple rapid response units are introduced, I believe this will change the scenario drastically. Especially when they are a combination of a Carrier fleet and a Battleship fleet backed up with a Corp of Marines for any land operations.
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The question of would you trust them to provide security for your realm doesn't have the same power to it.
Sorry but I disagree – putting the UN between two states like the FS and the DC is just delaying the inevitable.
It is never about the cost it is about security and how you feel about the security – most would want their people for security. As demonstrated in the DC / FS succession war where the SLDF refused to interfere as well as the FWL Civil War you cannot trust the SLDF to do their job if the First Lord denies their assistance!
Also. I would say a more accurate analogy of the difference in technology is …
F-4 Phantom and F-16 Falcon
Patton Tank and Abrams
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Most either buy from the 'super' powers or just stick with the basics.
Problem is there are no small states only super-powers. Even the Periphery States have the military industrial capabilities of a super-power.
This is once more where a massive black hole exists in the game – R&D capabilities of the Terran Hegemony Vs. every other state – How long before one of the Great Houses equalled and even surpassed that of Terra? considering the amount of people a Great House has Vs Terra – my bet is that by the time of the Amaris all Great Houses were almost on parity with that of the Terra when it came to military technology.
One other point I would also like to raise – During the Amaris / Kerensky War – wouldn’t every Great House use the confusion to send in Black Special Ops teams into the war zone to ‘acquire’ advanced technology / personnel for their Great House? Thus, in so doing reduce the technology gap even further.
As for mass production – isn’t this why I suggested hidden facilities throughout their realm? One day the Star League and the SLDF would wake up and find most of the Great Houses with a far more advanced Great House than they thought.
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Even the house lords would not want just anyone being able to make weapons of war
The only ones remaining other than the Great Houses are Periphery States – and they are on the same level of technology as a Great House – so again the issue is not technology but who can mass produce the most and who can form the largest most professional army first to take on the SLDF.
Hatchetman – if the head was nothing new then why not incorporate this into every Mech design as standard?
Safety of the pilot would be higher in the head than on a chute floating over the battlefield.
The reason the clans would not have adopted it as it would have been seen as cowardly – for the IS it should have been SOP for all mechs to have this system incorporated if it can be proved the safety of the pilot was higher in an eject-able head than a chute.
I also agree HPGs should have been standard on all ships – once the decision is made to have them built on every world a similar order should have issued to have them built into every warship and a few Jump-ships utilized for high-ranking individuals – First Lord, Council Members etc
I would also suggest very wealthy people would also have had a HPG placed in the personal ship.
For example – when Commander in Chief of the SLDF Rebecca resigned from her post the First Lord was off on his 5 year good will tour – thus making Kerensky her replacement must have been done via HPG communication.
At this stage I would like to ask ComStar if they have a copy of these transmissions as it would be pertinent to understand their thought processes at the time for the sake of History.
The Coms network was established after the Reunification war – this war was completed totally via pony express – hence the longevity of the war.
And yes I agree the Houses would never have given up their Coms to that of an individual on Terra – entering the realm of the preposterous with this ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/17/21 09:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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I have said that the IS should have had clan tech even before the IS went to the clan home worlds. I have said it was a poor idea that costs stopped this. To retool all the factories to build it, yet they pretty much did that with making SL tech shows the lie to this. TPTB made tech too advanced that there could not be a new boogie man to threaten them the way the clans did. WOB was too small to do much even with the advanced tech, so nukes were what they fell back on.
It doesn't seem like they really thought things thru with the FC and beyond. You knew a civil war would come soon, as the FS and LC combining would create too much of a super power to really do more then sit there.
As for the Yardships, this shows retcon material does NOT always work. The rules made it so this type of vessel could not be possible. The idea of the Terran exodus was possible to have without a vessel like this as the jump drive was still being explored. A mobile space station would be a concept for all jumpships, as it would allow them to have the ability to repair itself. Costs would make sure cheaper units would come about, losing a lot of the capabilities of such a vessel.
The tech level of the clans should have started at SL levels and gone up. But they tried to counter that with the civil war in the Pentagon worlds. Really imaginative... Then having the tech grow in some areas without others was done as the way the clans grew would make some tech more desirable then others. Why worry about better crops when you could have a laser that destroys fields faster so of thought.
So you think the SL was planning to take over the IS from the beginning? I think this isn't correct. As the Camerons continued to rule, it became like most dynasties. The family thought because they were born, therefore they had the right to rule as they wanted to. Had the SL done something like having multiple families take turns, it would have had less issues with the right to rule, but would have caused coupe much more often.
Politics is always a problem. Getting involved or staying out of it will always have negative results. If the SL got involved, it would have been the same thing as not getting involved, just on the opposite side of the spectrum. The concept of for against, and against for comes about. Someone will always complain something wasn't done or was done. You will never be right in any case.
I want to say there is some printed things that suggested the SL wasn't that far ahead of the houses in tech, which is why they made sure the SL had the superior numbers. I don't remember where I had seen that.
The black ops raiding league bases probably did happen. It may be part of why Kerensky got to the point of leaving. Granted, the story doesn't have printed statements to support this. Even framing the periphery states would have been done. I have no doubt the houses did so even before the Amaris war. How much and was it enough is the question. The fact the LC hit Defiance to steal the battlemech plans says it happened in the past. There is no reason to think it wasn't done repeatedly.
I was thinking that you only want those politically allied with you to have any sort of building tech in your nation. If you live in North America, you would not want someone in even South America being able to build mechs. Keeping that power in limited hands means South America would be less likely to rise up and take your position. Even if you are part of the same organization or nation.
The concept of making sure no one takes your tech by producing it in very limited facilities comes into play here.
The head ejection seat not being standard has a few reasons. One is the cost to redesign the existing mechs to use it. Then retooling to make it. Some factories were said to be so old, the techs were worried they would stop functioning entirely, so a retool was out of the question. Also remember the tag line of the game. Life is cheap, mechs aren't. I don't think losing good pilots is smart, but the game has it so you can be replaced easier then the machine.
For a few designs, the head being ejected isn't possible, such as the Archer, which is supposed to be in the lower torso area.
Unless they changed it, Comstar took over the existing coms network to keep it up and running when Kerensky was leaving. I seriously doubt that there wasn't at least some part of it running before the reunification war started. It may have been nothing more then a few worlds being the main hub for coms, but they had to have something in place. Otherwise, why would they have all those smaller and mobile units in place? This would be back up for the main HPG antenna, as well as privately owned ones. I know Comstar was supposed to replace units that were destroyed during the wars, but doubt it was making the system while the war raged.
Also, the LC should have had a working HPG on their last warship in the 2nd war. The ship they sent to destroy the last of the DC ships when it hit Defiance. So their own backstory causes more issues with tech and timeline.
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Requiem
08/18/21 07:24 AM
124.184.134.200
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Yes, I agree, with the first paragraph. The IS should have Clan tech by retooling all Military Industrial Facilities
As for WOB Angel Series Mechs etc – these should have been incorporated into all IS forces as second Generation IS Omni – the majority of IS single weapon Mechs should be scrapped! And should have been used by the new SLDF during Bulldog / Serpent.
As for the story I have decided not to bother with it at all – as I will design a complete tangent and go down my own road as I absolutely have no respect whatsoever for the story 3039 onwards.
In my opinion, the concept of mobile space stations should have been introduced for the initial exodus from Terra and all subsequent exodus thereafter – something similar to the Gundam space colony artificial habitats.
As for yard-ships they exist. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Yardship_classes
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The tech level of the clans should have started at SL levels and gone up.
I agree.
The idea of increasing the Clan Tech too far would make all wars superfluous.
Though the idea of the Clans as is however is appalling to me!
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So you think the SL was planning to take over the IS from the beginning?
Yes I do – even though some of the First Lords are Basket Cases I believe that there is an underlying House Cameron group who’s sole aim is IS wide domination – remove all current Great Houses Leaders and replace them with a Cameron and at the same time remove all borders and have just one Star League.
The problem is Amaris put this long-term plan to flight.
It also explains the size of the SLDF as well as the Hidden Bases and the unnatural predilection for the Star League to force the Periphery into joining during the Reunification War – was it really worth it? waging such a massive war to just obtain the Periphery states.
This indicates a predilection for conquest – to rule everything and to be the only one to rule everything.
With Politics – you need to explain why they are doing what they are doing – otherwise speculation leads to a very poor story – as shown throughout the Canon story there are just way too many political situations that destroy the story’s aesthetics and limits the games development (as well as profitability).
Just compare the story to that of Warhammer and 40K.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Terran_Hegemony#Star_League
Technology – “Hegemony companies began flooding the member states with technological marvels in return for the raw materials the Hegemony desperately needed, although in accordance with the Mother Doctrine not with those declared off-limits”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mother_Doctrine
“Despite its efforts, the Hegemony government recognized that some degree of leakage would occur and even accepted the occasional loss, content that its continuing advances would make such losses quickly obsolete.”
As for Great Houses attacking the Terran Hegemony during Amaris Civil War – would make for an excellent scenario.
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I was thinking that you only want those politically allied with you to have any sort of building tech in your nation.
I want every nation to have their own architecture building tech style – a great deal of variety would just make the game more interesting – especially if you started in a Star League facility and yet you turned a corner and the architecture changed to another house – thus realising the initial fortress was at some time used to build a larger fortress for the Great House.
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The head ejection seat not being standard has a few reasons. One is the cost to redesign the existing mechs to use it. Then retooling to make it.
And yet if you compare this cost to the cost of time required to educate and train, as well as all of the costs itself, to produce a MechWarrior my bet is that it would be cheaper (from an insurance point of view) to place a head ejection system on every mech that it would to train a substitute for the deceased.
Life is not cheap!
As for the archer – explode forward rather than up.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator “the first HPG station, built in 2629 just outside the Court of the Star League, which transmitted the first HPG message on New Year's Day 2630.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Reunification_War 2577-2597
During the Reunification War, therefore, they only had the pony express for messages.
Still believe all ships should have a HPG as standard built into them at the dock yards. So yes, all last ships should have a HPG on them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/18/21 12:28 PM
45.51.181.83
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Because the vessel could not jump or maneuver while a ship was repaired in its dry-dock, the Newgrange boasted somewhat luxurious recreation and exercise facilities on its four 500-meter Grav Decks and its own Mobile HPG transmitter to keep in touch with home.
This is interesting as the Introduced 2600 suggests there is an issue with the HPG set up.
There is nothing that I seen saying the HPG was installed after it was invented. So more logic issues with the time lines.
A quick note on the Archer ejection concept. The ejection mechanism is supposed to be set to fire backwards from the way the mech is facing, due to the fact you don't want the pilot being shot out into the most likely path of incoming projectiles as well as give them a chance to run.
The archer doesn't have a head per se to eject. A few mechs are like this. For those pilots forced to eject in hostile terrain, I can see they would love a fully environmental contained cockpit going with them.
I want every nation to have their own architecture building tech style
It looks like missed understanding of building tech statement. I was saying you would only want allies to build weapons of war, and even then, have safeguards on them. The possibility of them 'revolting' or turning against you means making sure they can't use that against you. Having just anyone in your nation building weapons tends to end up badly as there will always be a point that people get upset with each other. But the concept of having things like mechs based on their own ideology should have been done in the beginning. The artists didn't do that. The Dragon, Jenner, Panther and such should have been more Japanese style while the Vindicator should have been more Chinese.
As for actual buildings, there is a point where the traditional building styles would have to give way to practicality. In an area that gets hit a lot, the upwards pointed corners on an older style Japanese building becomes a waste of resources. It would get blown apart even when using the best of materials like ferro-crete.
I can see government buildings having them to remind everyone of their history, but even then, the waste of resources would make you think twice.
And now a bit more with issues of the HPG intallation.
There is not one mention in TRO 2750 of the SL built ships having an HPG installed on them. No space even designated for them. So again, the retcon shows thru.
There is one more thing that comes to question about Blake rebuilding the network. If the SL fell, where did he get the money and resources to rebuild the network?
Edited by ghostrider (08/18/21 12:30 PM)
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Requiem
08/18/21 06:38 PM
124.184.134.200
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So more logic issues with the time lines.
Agree, if a HPG can be installed whist the Newgrange is being constructed for one class of ship then it can be installed for all classes of warships.
This also implies that yes, shipyards did have the ability to at least order the manufacture HPGs or even manufacture them themselves.
The 2600 may refer to the ship and not the HPG – this may be a future addition.
Thus, can it be said? In order for “Comstar” of the future to exist they must have used their new SLDF during the 1st Succession War to eliminate everyone else who has the ability to manufacture them so that they would become the sole manufacturers – and in so doing use their new monopoly as a bully pulpit to get what they wanted.
Archer ejection mechanism – can it go first forward then up and back then – programmed thrusters for variable flight?
Only in a perfect would allies be the only ones to have the ability to manufacture military equipment – however when you begin to treat an ally so it comes to understand the point of view of the enemy is how you will end up loosing wars – as in this case the First Lord and the SLDF forces the Great Houses to understand the point of view of the Periphery so they too came to see the value in insurrection against the Star League.
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The artists didn't do that. The Dragon, Jenner, Panther and such should have been more Japanese style while the Vindicator should have been more Chinese.
Agree … though as stated in my forum where I rewrote the Draconis Combine … it is also a question of the names, these too should be more cultural specific for the region in which they were made.
As for city warfare – as per the rules of land warfare this was supposed to be illegal, unless combatants were using the city. Thus the safety of cities can be assumed to be guaranteed. However as seen in the future Battletech universe they have thrown out the rules of warfare and really don’t care how much damage is done in order to ‘win’.
Also, I would like to point out it many not be considered a waste of resources as it is a symbol of pride the people have in their society to build in a style that promotes the beauty and strength of their culture.
Washington is a very good example of this – it was originally built in such a manner / style as to create an awe-inspiring sight.
Yes, I agree the retcon does show through – all warships circa 2750 must have a HPG installed the idea they do not is ludicrous.
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Blake and the money to build the Comstar
Easy – he just appropriated the entire monies of the former Star League / Terran Hegemony Government that was held by the Finance Department as his own – The Star League was dead – The Terran Hegemony was being ruthlessly picked over by the Great Houses so it would have been easy for him to just acquire it all for ComStar.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/18/21 06:41 PM)
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ghostrider
08/19/21 12:24 AM
45.51.181.83
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In order for “Comstar” of the future to exist they must have used their new SLDF during the 1st Succession War to eliminate everyone else who has the ability to manufacture them so that they would become the sole manufacturers – and in so doing use their new monopoly as a bully pulpit to get what they wanted.
This is the line of thinking of having them do more then just take out competition for the HPG systems. It could very well have been done to remove a lot of data, such as the higher tech from the houses, blaming it on the other houses during the wars. It would be far easier to bully the IS if Comstar had the highest tech, and the IS was stuck with the low level garbage.
It is possible that ROM came from the SL intel department, meaning the sneak suits and such were part of their equipment. And this leads to asking why that equipment tech isn't part of Comstar/WOB? They didn't lose the tech.
And it leads to the question of why the Comstar improvements to a few things came out much later. I can understand the c3 stuff, as that was new tech at the time of the invasion, but the ecm/ap and such was theirs for over 250 years. Even advancement in weapons should have been in Comstar/WOB arsenals. They had could build warships without an issue. The hidden worlds would not have just come about during WOBs occupation of Terra. If so, there is a huge issue here.
The ejection 'solution' wouldn't be that easy. Limited fuel would suggest simple flight paths. Though the Archer doesn't say it lacks the ejection chair, so I would think the cockpit is far enough into the mech to allow it to punch out the back. Funny how the rules don't deal with oddly placed cockpits like this. Then again, more then a few people would suggest the head armor is in addition to the torso armor.
The Yardships do not have it stated the HPG was added in when the HPG was first built. It makes it sound like it was always part of the yardship.
An additional thought came up with the warships not having them listed, is that some of the newer ones built, like the Cameron line didn't have it listed. As the 2750 TRO suggests it was the latest core made before the SL died, this is suspicious.
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Requiem
08/19/21 06:01 PM
124.184.134.200
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In order for ComStar to recognise the power they would wield in the absence of anyone who could manufacture / operate a HPG other than their people – is a high-level Machiavellian thought process.
Yes, I do believe they could have achieved this during the chaos.
However, to remove all technology / knowledge I am still under the belief this is impossible – on a single world it may be achievable, however, when you are discussing thousands of worlds with who knows how many education centres per world, as well as internal education centres for corporations, and military academies etc no this is quite impossible.
Canon would suggest though it was a fortuitous event for ComStar. The IS Houses pounded each other loosing everything in the process whist ComStar – safe on Terra still retained everything. Thus, placing them in a unique position. A position they were determined to keep thus ROM was dispatched with a mandate to make this bad situation worse.
Though I must agree it would not be beyond the realm of impossibility for ROM (former SLDF special forces? Or trained by them) to be sent out on a mission of mayhem.
As for the ‘advanced’ equipment – sneak suits etc – the use of which would only be for very important missions – getting caught by using them too often is just too dangerous when considering their master plan – to reduce technology even further then ride out and establish a Blakean Theocracy under their rule.
That said, given that in the far future we are provided with the 5 hidden worlds concept – then yes the technology of ComStar / WOB must be on par with, just above or just below that of the Clans. The idea that ComStar would decrease every other powers technology whilst not increasing their own simultaneously is beyond belief – they are hidden away, they have the people and the research facilities so they should be increased their technology whilst destroying all others.
Though given the clans predilection for all things military and genetics here they should have the edge here. Though in all other fields of endeavour ComStar / WOB should have the edge.
And yes, I also agree that there is a massive issue herewith regards to technological development.
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the cockpit is far enough into the mech to allow it to punch out the back
Unique idea – Though this would require cockpit to punch through the armour on the back – given the limited armour there would this be problematic if archer as attacked from the rear now?
The ‘head’ could be emplaced into the shoulders giving it a turtle effect rather than the typical humanoid shape, thus yes I would agree head armour is now torso armour in this case – it is a tool after-all thus it should be able to be modified as per the designers requirements.
Fist few yard-ships – no HPG – though once HPG was created it was quickly adapted into all subsequent yard-ship – and what should have occurred all other ships. Older model yard-ships could have had them placed in at a later date.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/19/21 09:23 PM
45.51.181.83
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Simply changing some of the data can accomplish removing that tech. Wiring up the power sources so it explodes could well prevent someone from bothering with the schematics ever again. There is a slew of things that could be done, and most would not recognize the issues. It would not be over night, and Comstar did run the coms system. so had great access to anything that was in contact with the HPG network, even using worms and viruses to infect systems that remained off the network.
Most punch out tech assumes you are facing the enemy. And given things like the Marauder cockpit, the idea that they need to blow out torso armor is lessened. If you read the ejection systems of most mechs, they try to land the pilot in the hex directly behind the unit.
The issue with the HPG and Yardships is the fact that nothing is said about retrofitting those built before the HPG network came on line. Not sure if they just missed it, or if it is a typo of large preportions. It does suggest that the HPG network on vessels came after the Yardship was thought of.
One thing to consider of the torso cockpits. The game allows you to mount the dual cockpit inside the torso, yet you still have head armor. Does that mean those types are like the Thunderbolt's head? Or is it a design issue that messes with the torso's structure?
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Requiem
08/20/21 02:16 AM
124.184.134.200
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Simply changing the data
Make sure ALL the data is destroyed at the same time, as if it is checked against another source from off world or with another expert on the topic then they will know it was sabotage and start an investigation.
Care must be taken to ensure the blame falls with their enemy and not ComStar.
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Ejection system
If it was me, I would want control over where I land – once parachute is deployed I would like to have control and steer in what I hope is a safe spot. Saying that it is going to be at a certain location every-time makes it predictable hence you will either be a POW or dead as when you land the enemy opens-up!
Dual cockpit – how about both? – if the cockpit is like the ‘phantom jet’ fighter front and back - the front cockpit is situated like the Thunderbolt and the rear is similar to that of head as it is slanted so the back pilot is higher than the front.
However, if the cockpit is like the ‘intruder jet’ fighter - side by side then this will cause some debate and controversy.
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yard-ships
Clarity on the subject is required yet again.
Though the idea they would only place a HPG on salvage / repair ship is ridiculous - in all reality it should be every ship of the line.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/20/21 12:21 PM
45.51.181.83
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The concept that any data being sent thru the HPG network or connected to it, would be changed to one set up. Or even having multiple different set ups would confuse and frustrate anyone trying to confirm anything. Not sure how much communications were going on between worlds on trying to fix some 'typos' during the war.
The books suggest the ejection seat is just like aircraft of today. It is designed to blow the head armor away and jet the pilot up and away from the unit. As there is supposed to be parachutes to slow the decent, it would figure they have some control. The main thing is the ejection behind the unit is on the assumption the pilot can't do anything, like steer the seat. Given the mechwarriors normal garb with piloting, some worlds like Tharkad would be dangerous to eject from a mech.
As this is just an emergency system to get the pilot away from a dying mech, it would not have to be large or bulky, which means the cockpit can handle more things like sensor screens and sealed environmental support.
I agree that all mechs should eventually be redesigned in order to use a full head ejection system, the game doesn't think the cost is worth it. And this is also not touching on if the head armor is damaged. This could well prevent the ejection mechanism from working, on up to, but not limited to, destroying the cockpit when used. The small cockpit is even more of a problem for space.
The yardships are not the only ones that got an HPG set up on them. It does make sense they would, as they get called to head to other systems to deal with issues. Not possible if they are in a system without a normal HPG, once they got set up. So instead of returning to their main yards to be sent out, they can be sent from their last job.
As yardships were retcon material, they should say added in once the tech was set up. The warships in the 2750 were done before the HPG was thought of being put into those units.
The HPG on ships would explain why they were more willing to head thru rarely traveled systems, as you were not wo worried about being stranded if something happened.
But a question does come up with the Black box tech and warships. The Bugeyes would be a candidate for the Black box, but to use it without the FC upgrades would tell everyone it was there. So does that mean the SL had black tech superior to that known to the rest of the IS? Well in this case, as we know they did have better tech.
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Requiem
08/20/21 04:17 PM
124.184.134.200
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Not sure how much communications were going on between worlds on trying to fix some 'typos' during the war
When it comes to highly sensitive information – they would be very concerned regarding typos – especially if it occurs multiple times.
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ejection system
Given that mechs are supposed to fight in any environment – including underwater and even in space on lunar surfaces the idea that a parachute would be still utilized is very disturbing. I agree with you, I am also of the view this was not thought through to its logical conclusion - in my opinion, also, all Mechs should have a head ejection system.
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yard-ships HPG
Yes, this is a good point – ships with HPG would become more strategically flexible to travel through unregistered space-ways to reach their target.
As for Bug-eyes - again issue of range / lag time of message / very small information packet should be considered.
Can you detect a Black Box being used? Does it create an issue that is recognisable as a message being sent?
Yes the SL did have better tech – the question is did they upgrade the earlier model and if they did then why didn’t the Clans continue to upgrade the tech – why was it shelved in favour of the HPG?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/20/21 05:34 PM
45.51.181.83
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Mechs were pretty unique. Most vehicles don't have ejection seats.
When operating on a vacuum world, they had to be sealed and fusion powered.
Subs were needed for underwater, and they had the escape pods, not ejection seats.
So no. The ejection seats were not good for all the environments the mech operates in. You could disable them when needed, so you didn't eject into a void. Granted it was probably better to die in an explosion the sufficate.
I have and do agree that mechs that can, should have been changed over to full head ejection.
With ships having an HPG on it, sneak attacks thru uninhabited systems would be a lot more common. Even just being covert thru those systems is more likely. Drop off spec ops by a system they don't watch would be more likely to succeed then coming thru the main jump points. I am sure the Bugeyes did this a lot. Pirate points and just sit. They were supposed to be hard to detect the jump signature on them to begin with.
The best guess for the clans not using them is the fact they seem to be used for being sneaky. Dishonorable. You wanted to show you are superior, you send the messages in the open and show the enemy, you don't care if they know.
I would also think that getting rid of them, would prevent the freeborns from being able to talk without the clans knowing what they were saying. Pretty much keeping coms limited to what they watched.
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Requiem
08/21/21 07:08 AM
124.184.134.200
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Agreed
- All Mechs should have a total head ejection system.
- Warships + HPGs allows for more Special Services Raiding within the game. Also a more coordinated attack strategy (almost real-time) when it come s to future warfare – Strategic planning / creating reserve marine forces – the entire process of how war is fought will change when HPGs included in warships.
And this is where I believe the entire rules for warships may require a re-write from construction on up, especially since I really do not appreciate many of the images of warships in the game – probably my perception as to warship aesthetics.
I am very adamant on this point when it comes to the Clan invasion …
Once warships are re-entered into the game, there is no way around it, they are now the biggest gun on the battlefield and as such the highest priority target.
Even if the Clan’s don’t use them there is no way for the House Lords to know this – then post Turtle Bay / and the Lyran incident – the Great Houses now have no choice but to engage them with everything they have.
The DC, RR and FC have no choice but to work together – England USA and Russia Vs Germany - a total re-write of the story is required.
All veteran / elite units of the borders will have to be transferred to the front – and in all probability a Maginot Line defensive fortifications will have to be established on every would in direct line of the Clan Advance.
If the Clans do not want their Warships targeted they have but two choices
1. Remove all Warships from the combat operations zone and expel them permanently to the Deep Periphery;
2. A summit of all parties concerned – mediated by ComStar – between all the Great House Lords and all the ilKhan, Khans and Sa-Khans of all the Clans - there they have to hammer out the rules of Warfare – an Ayres Mk 2
Failure to do so will result in one inevitable fact the IS Great Houses will initiate nuclear strikes against clan Warships – in the absence of the IS having warships / my PT craft as a stop gap measure this is the situation everyone will find themselves in.
In my opinion this is the only logical cause of action where the Clans have Warships and the IS doesn’t.
There is no other way around this fact.
This is one of my chief gripes when it comes to the Clan Invasion, and I cannot see any other way around it, if the TPTB don’t want a nuclear war then as at 3050 the IS must have fleets of their own to match the Clans warships so that a naval war can commence.
I am sorry but I will not change my mind on these points – I am very much stuck in the mud when it comes to this.
Sorry but I find the canon story as being bland, lacking depth and totally lacking in the realism / believable department when it comes to this war (and many of the underlying stories) and as such became the catalyst for my Alt universe desire. The entire Clan Invasion was written too fast and with no real thought given in my opinion. Yes I have the books but I do not believe I will ever re-read them again as if I did I would probably end up throwing them against the wall …
It is a great idea, but as is, it needs a total revision of the script (in my opinion that is).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/21 11:59 AM
45.51.181.83
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There is an issue with the summit idea. This requires the clans actually talk with the IS leaders. This is something the clans would not do. There is no respect for the houses from the clans, so talking with them until there is, would be pointless. They are used to war, and losses are going to happen in fights. Unless the numbers of losses exceeds a certain number, they are ok with it.
Basically, they are ok with dying in combat. Their legacy lives on if they genes are accepted into the iron wombs.
As the story line puts it, the clans rarely had warship on warship fights, but they do happen. The clan leaders were reliant on having the warships available for bidding. When Ulric bid away the Direwolf, it shook the clan leaders thought process.
The clans would have responded after a while, but as we don't know how the battles against just dropships went, it is hard to say just how differently they would have responded. I would say adding in more fighters would be the first step. The second would be more assault dropships that were anti fighter in their roll.
The clans did target jumpships, which was a big problem with the IS. With an increased loss of warships, the clans may well have just targeted the jumpships to remove the IS ability to strike back at them. They did so in the beginning to prevent knowledge of them being here in the first place.
Oddly enough, the fact they did strike the jumpships seems to put their superiority complex at odds. Why would they stoop to such a low standard against their own combat challenges to destroy those ships? I thought they wanted the combat, as they said the IS was weak and full of barbarians. The clans were superior, and the most barbarians they destroyed on the border, the less they had to deal with when traveling to Terra. Kill enough, and the war for Terra would be the clans fighting each other for the right, not even having to disgrace themselves fighting the dezgra IS forces.
Comstar was only known to them after contact in the periphery. And the only time they even bothered telling Comstar Terra was their target, was as they were about to finish gobbling up the FRR. And that was only a fluke that came from a chance question.
The story line has a lot of flaws in it. There is no argument from me about that. How to deal with it draws some issues. I am fine with the clans having the big guns, as that is normal with invaders hitting the numerically superior enemy. The issue with warships is they are too big to effectively counter without having your own. And this causes the nuke fests. With mechs and such, you can defeat them without needing to have dropships in order to get to them. Simple mech holes can give you a chance to take one out. Warships can blow apart entire cities in a matter of minutes.
As posts advanced, it seem the flaws from the SL era showed up enough to show the retconned material made things far worse. A few simple changes would remove most of the major flaws in the later storyline.
One simple fact, the HPGs on ships, would have made a huge difference in the periphery fights. Simple find the enemy and send in the fleet to wipe it out. Do it before the enemy can jump out. The nukes would be easier to deal with, as you would still have the orbital weapons available.
Then add in the ability to shift troops relatively quickly to a new world to hit the concentration of forces. Even calling in spec ops to remove issues.
Having ships scattered around a target, would allow you to know where the target was fleeing. If equipped with Ion-Lithium batteries and they were charged, they could only jump twice in quick succession. Even a hot load takes a little time. You can call in reinforcements to engage that target. What happens to armies when their leaders get taken out? Either they get enraged, or demoralized, In the end, they make mistakes.
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Requiem
08/21/21 10:26 PM
124.184.134.200
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There is an issue with the summit idea. This requires the clans actually talk with the IS leaders.
No not really – two possible routes for this to occur
1. ComStar and 2. Wolf’s Dragoons
Which is worse for the clans – sitting down at a summit to stop a full nuclear war or being caught in the middle of a nuclear war with no training or protection – for the inner sphere such knowledge would have been included in basic as well as history – for the Clans not so much unless you count the wolverine incident.
My bet is the Wardens would demand the Crusaders attend – after all it is their fault the Clans find them in the middle of such a dire situation.
Question – how long would the Clans last in the Inner Sphere if the war turned total nuclear? My bet not very long – and where is the honour in war when you perish in a nuclear inferno? Death in battle surrounded by enemies fighting to the last is glory – whereas being blown off the map by a nuke cannot be considered to be glorious – so why use the genes of someone who fell pray to Inner Sphere barbarians using a nuke on them – from the Clan incompetence would be main catch word for such a warrior to fall in battle by a nuke rather than in single combat. So, no real legacy there.
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the clans may well have just targeted the jumpships to remove the IS ability to strike back at them
This is a given both sides would now have to use non-standard jump points and hit and run tactics – the entire game now switches to Navy combat if there is no summit.
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They did so in the beginning to prevent knowledge of them being here in the first place.
That was then, this is now
As for killing off jump-ships they are supposed to be Mongols – wanton destruction comes with the job, the Clans for all their beliefs are not beyond destruction for the sake of destruction no matter how they attempt to justify the decision
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The clans were superior
Only from a technological point of view – from an ethical and sociological point of view they were a throwback to the dark ages – in all reality the concept of the Clans, as is, should never have seen the light of day unless they are the ultimate bag guy in the story to which the IS must over-come (pedantic plot line).
Sorry but I am really not impressed with the clans as is.
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And the only time they even bothered telling Comstar Terra was their target, was as they were about to finish gobbling up the FRR
Problem with this statement is the fact that no one even thought to look at a map – and no one even thought hang on these guys think they are the SLDF’s descendants – what would happen if we extend their attack patten all the ay through the IS - what important worlds are in their direct line of attack – what could be their aim if they want to restore the SL as they believe they are the SLDF?
Really? Sorry but this shows that no one gave this any thought whatsoever. This is such a plebian plot twist that I really want to bang mu head against the wall … Focht should have recognised or suggested this could be their ultimate target and he should have investigated from world one – it is not that hard to work it out!
So yes, the story line does have many many many flaws in it.
If warships are to be in the game, then there will be planetary bombardment there is no way of getting around this. So unless the game puts in something to make this impossible then there is no way of stopping it!
TPTB really dropped the ball here - So unless the IS have warships from the start of the Clan Invasion also - you should expect a nuclear war to commence shortly thereafter – there is no other logical response unless the story goes off the rails and becomes very farfetched and unbelievable!
Either allow a mother loving Navy War from the Start or allow nukes into the game. These are the only two real situations here.
And yes, I do completely agree with you – “A few simple changes would remove most of the major flaws in the later storyline. One simple fact, the HPGs on ships, would have made a huge difference.”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/22/21 03:34 AM
45.51.181.83
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Until it was proven the clans were in contact with Comstar, it was unlikely the IS could contact the clans in a non hostile way. The Dragoons would be problematic, especially depending on when they tried. It was only during the break that the Dragoons said they were from the clans, and by that time, the recall had been done. So it would be unlikely this option would be open.
The what if idea is a problem to say what would happen. Given the story lines implications of the clans, it would turn all against the IS, as they would show they were barbarians like the Crusaders have labeled them. Doesn't matter why they did it, the arrogant clanners would say the IS did it without provocation.
The IS would have reservations about using the nuke as stated in other threads.
The story line says the IS thought the clans were just a large group of pirates that found a large cache of SL units. They did not suspect they were the SL returning as almost anything coming in from the periphery may well have been labeled SL. It is easy to see why they would not believe it was the SLDF.
The clans were more skilled then the IS was. Yes, there were people that could beat them one on one, but the average clanner was a better gunner then the IS pilots were. Which sounds odd, as they had better targeting and weapons. This would make you less skilled, as the equipment would make up for a lack of skills.
The IS did have a navy in the game. They just didn't have battleships. They did have fighter carriers and smaller units. As for the alt, you said it would not follow canon, so the limitations put forth in order to even appear close to canon would be gone.
The problem with keeping warships is the fact that the succession wars would have used them even more. The leaders have shown that paper agreements only last until someone sees they can gain an advantage by breaking it. I dislike the notion, but trying to keep a war game close to real, it is not something you can remove.
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Requiem
08/22/21 07:32 AM
124.184.134.200
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Until it was proven the clans were in contact with Comstar, it was unlikely the IS could contact the clans in a non hostile way.
ComStar’s people have also been taken as POWs during the invasion – as an organisation of peace they can say to both the Great Houses and the Clans that their people can act as intermediaries in this time of strife …
The Great House will believe such a story as this has occurred many times … and even just recently prior to the Formation of the FC with every Great House …
The Great Houses do not need to know about their agreement on the side with the Clans.
It is possible such as situation can eventuate.
As for the Dragoons …. Who is Khan of the Wolves? Can you really say he would not be open to any solution to rid himself of a nuclear war?
And then there is also Phelan he could also reach out at the same time.
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it would turn all against the IS
No sorry but I disagree – the wardens would recognise the truth the Crusaders would have to be dragged to the table kicking and screaming …
Still does not change the fact that every invasion force and every garrison must now contend with nuclear bombardment as a first strike option by the IS.
They can call the IS barbarians as much as they want – yet every piece of captured media will say the same thig they started this – with the invasion and Turtle Bay – sooner or later they have to read the IS media or are their watch that incompetent?
For too long this game has only looked at how the clans view war and attempted to make the IS adopt the Clan way of Mech on Mech only, sorry but in this case either the clans recognise their error or face nuclear Armageddon within the IS.
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The IS would have reservations about using the nuke as stated in other threads.
Sorry but no – will come down to how the message is crafted for media consumption – frame it correctly and the people will believe that nukes are the only way forward to victory. Just recently the press sold a war to the people of the world about WMDs and the invasion went forward … same principle.
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The story line says the IS thought the clans were just a large group of pirates that found a large cache of SL units.
And when images of Omnis and Elementals and warships come through then what?
Sorry but the idea that they are pirates lasts about 5 minutes before reality sets in.
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The clans were more skilled then the IS was.
What an absolute load of BS … at single combat only.
Once combined arms tactics of an RCT are bought to bear their ’superiority’ takes a long walk off a very short pier. There is absolutely no way any clan can sustain the loss depletion report – their entire reserves are built around a Sibko system where the IS is via an academy and Boot camp!
This may be a very evil thing to say but numbers do not lie the clans may kill more people than the IS but at the end of the day the IS can absorb these losses – the clans cannot!
In a total war setting where the entire economy is switched over to military – USA WW2 – there is absolutely no way the Clans can stand against the economic might of the IS.
And this is the big problem TPTB never under stood economics and logistics when it comes to war it has just been ignored for the main part.
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The IS did have a navy in the game. They just didn't have battleships. They did have fighter carriers and smaller units.
Where only very small numbers were involved. What I am suggesting is proper Navy war!
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The problem with keeping warships is the fact that the succession wars would have used them even more.
Construction vs destruction – In my Alt they use hidden bases to manufacture warships ( ever since the prior to the Amaris War) how many bases survived the succession wars and how many ships are being manufactured per year?
It may be difficult to construct but it is not impossible to construct a game that is close to real – it is a question of getting the parameters correct from word one and going from there.
The problem with Canon is there have been too many holes, and too little patches and many of the books reads like a boys own adventure book from the late 1800s.
Rather than trying to build multiple arcs all they really needed was two or three really good arcs over 75-100 years in game time - just look at Warhammer 40K and the Horus heresy arc – what book are they up to? Mid 50’s ? getting the story correct generates sales and generates interest.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/22/21 12:26 PM
45.51.181.83
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Act as intermediates would cause a lot of problems. For Comstar to be able to send and receive messages from the clans means they have access to the HPG networks on taken worlds. The houses would demand intel on clan forces on those worlds. It would also lead to questions of why those worlds can not be contacted as well as why they were sending 'normal' messages when they were being invaded.
During the first half of the invasion, the clans were all part of one political machine. No one knew there were two factions involved. With nukes being used like the 1st war as well as the fall of the SL, the IS would have probably found the clans homeworlds and hit them all, not just the crusaders. So once the nukes started being used, the entire war changes. The clans would not give any mercy, and would start destroying anything that looked functional. The clans had the ability to make nukes, and would probably start making and using them if the IS cut loose with them. Some medical proceedures require radioactive isotopes, so they would not have shelved being able to use it.
If you don't try to follow canon, then nukes being fired off like an LRM 20 can be done.
It might be best to just have the clan civil war wipe out their warship capabilities and have the Helm Core data on them so corrupt, it was useless.
Well if you even use the clans in your alt if not following canon.
The issue is once you say that nukes are the only way forward, they will continue to think that, and use them for any sort of time they will lose a fight. It become easier to do things after the first time. Soon, you become immune to the effects.
Funny thing about elementals is the SL did have power armor. This could have been from a research or manufacturing base in the area, as no one knew what the SL had in the 3049 era. Warship graveyards do happen, and with the right information, like a core or even SL facility like Camelot Command, it is possible to refit and restore warships. Again, no one knew just what the SL left behind. This includes Comstar, which took over Terra and what was left of the quartermasters network.
The clan warriors were better gunners and pilots. They were trained with one on one, as it was the only way to show who is superior. This helped prevent the huge losses of battles as it gives the opponent time to surrender. Which is what was said a few times. As for the ability to mass fire on a target, the clans could do that as well, though they were reluctant to do so. The clans were reluctant to use things like IDF with missiles, as they were trained to see the target. Some tactics and strategies were considered foreign to their training, so in that aspect they were weaker.
TPTB made the clan weakness so it could be exploited. If they had it set up like the IS, then the clans would have just rolled over the IS and would have been in control of Terra, removing the rest of the future as we knew it. Same with doing the one on one. With the clans growing larger then the original numbers, they would not have stopped adding in positions like they did. Waste is always a part of war. It is why you send in the foot soldiers first. Bleed the enemy of their ammo and cause them to heat up before you send in your mechs. Sacrifice and distraction.
I agree that the IS should have had more and better aerofighters. That logic isn't in question. But in order to have a land battle game, forces had to be able to reach the surface of worlds. So the proper defenses of a world would prevent this. I am of the mind that if the enemy can't reach your world, then you don't need to waste so much money rebuilding damage done to it.
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Requiem
08/22/21 05:31 PM
124.184.134.200
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For Comstar to be able to send and receive messages from the clans means they have access to the HPG networks on taken worlds.
Yes they are acting as intermediaries with Clan oversight – or the clans are reaching out on their own – no real problem with this.
This is a peace summit it is not a spy mission – demanding intel would be impossible.
Remember this is just like the 13 days with Cuban Missile Crisis – both sides using intermediaries to stop the approaching war.
The ability to formulate a quick resolution is in the best interest of the Clans and the Inner Sphere! Yes you can ask questions about what is happening in occupied Clan held space – my bet is you have spies in there and they are sending coded messages so it should not be a real surprise as to what is going on.
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During the first half of the invasion, the clans were all part of one political machine.
Er, no, they were never and will never be ‘one political machine’ – they are individual clans with either wardens or crusaders in ascendance / vying for power – any sign of weakness and they will be either destroyed or absorbed by a rival Clan.
They are individual Cells with absolutely no real leader despite the idea of there being an il-Khan – they all have their own agenda!
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No one knew there were two factions involved.
Wolf’s Dragoons knows there are factions involved!
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the IS would have probably found the clans homeworlds and hit them all
Another good reason to have the summit … stop it now before it takes on a life of its own and war begets more war in a never ending cycle of nuclear apocalypse …
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The clans would not give any mercy, and would start destroying anything that looked functional.
And the IS would return in kind … 1st Succession War all over again ….. so unless someone is willing to stand up and propose a second Ares Conventions by establishing a code of conduct during war then there will be only Nuclear devastation.
There is no way around it – if one side has warships the other side will use nukes – being a black void navy there is no way around not having warships they will be a part of the game. So unless there are rules of warfare that everyone agrees to they will be nuclear devastation as per the 1st Succession War.
There is no other way if one side has warships and the other doesn’t – In my opinion this is perhaps one of the major problems of the game during the Clan invasion that made the invasion story an absolute joke, and this should have been fixed years ago at the beginning!
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It become easier to do things after the first time. Soon, you become immune to the effects.
Agree – this is why it must be nipped in the bud as soon as possible before it takes on a life of its own!
So in all reality there are only two real viable solutions to fix this issue
1. Provide all IS Great Houses the ability to manufacture warships circa 3040 onwards – thus by the time of the Clan Invasion Naval engagements can commence, or
2. Brief nuclear exchange followed by a summit between all great houses, ComStar and the Clans
Yes I agree – no one knew what was left behind after Kerensky departed … sooner or later the Great Houses should have formed small independent units with old maps and history professors and sent them out with one mission to find out exactly what was left behind – over a couple of hundred years who knows what they could find.
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As for the ability to mass fire on a target, the clans could do that as well, though they were reluctant to do so.
Really? RCTs have trained for years on the principle so f combined armed tactics … what happens to the clans when battalions of artillery open up on them simultaneously whist being bombed by who knows how many conventional bombers ….
Sorry but the clans Sibko system cannot provide replacement numbers in the quantities required
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TPTB made the clan weakness so it could be exploited.
And yet in every engagement quickly ignored all conventional forces and went for Mech on Mech and turned the entire war into a complete shambles.
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If they had it set up like the IS, then the clans would have just rolled over the IS and would have been in control of Terra
Problem is sometime after the half-way mark to the three-quarters mark most clans will run out of front-line forces as they are all now garrison forces.
As stated, the invasion was not thought through! There are just too many issues for the Canon version to be considered anything but a farce of a war.
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But in order to have a land battle game
And what this seems to create is a view of looking at a single tree rather than the entire forest.
If the game is supposed to be just Mech on Mech then justify the reasons for it – create weapons that make all other forms of military equipment obsolete.
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I am of the mind that if the enemy can't reach your world, then you don't need to waste so much money rebuilding damage done to it.
Improving and enhancing the world will require money as well.
This is also a massive problem with the game – economics within the game is non-existent.
As many of the realms now would almost be unrecognisable once you bring economics into the game … Banks, Merchants, Military Industrial Complex, Food and Logistics would take on a dimension of their own.
People would actually have to study every world’s economy and the dependence they have with other worlds around them that is currently lacking from the game.
Might be time to start my own game rather than trying to fix this one …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/22/21 07:03 PM
45.51.181.83
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The fact that Comstar did have access to worlds taken by the clans is the key here. For the leaders of the IS states that were hit, Comstar would have been telling them no information was available, as they lost contact with their stations. To suggest otherwise, would mean Comstar was sympathetic to the invaders. And it would also bring up issues with agreements for emergency coms. Units on those worlds would have tried to send out those coms and pay for them, yet they were not delivered. Catch 22 here.
During the first half of the invasion, the clans were all part of one political machine. No one knew there were two factions involved.
The second sentence here covers the meaning. So again, no one in the IS that was talking knew the clans were not one political machine.
Given the brainwashing of the clan people, they would more likely being a full genocide of the IS. The history of the IS has so many times where each side just nuked each other, the clans would not believe the barbarians would adhere to an agreement like this. Just as the SL negated the Ares convention, so to would the IS states negate any sort of agreement. Actions speak louder then words here.
Sorry but the clans Sibko system cannot provide replacement numbers in the quantities required
What does this have to do with the fact the clans can mass fire on targets? When the Falcons killed Ulric, they did just that. Grand Melees did happen in fights as well. It is when they could, the remained one on one.
And yet in every engagement quickly ignored all conventional forces and went for Mech on Mech and turned the entire war into a complete shambles.
That is the history of the game. Few people wanted to fight tanks, so they stuck it with mech on mech. There is no reason to think the story would drift from this. It is agreed that non mech forces are almost always ignored in fights, until the story is required to use them. It isn't just the clan invasion.
If the clans were set up like the IS, they would have used all their forces they could get, and not had the stupid bidding wars before the invasion. There would be no limit on what they used, nor would they have left out any clans. They would have come in enmasse and just rolled over the IS. This would also include warships just bombarding anything that proved resistant to ground assaults. If would be like the DC against the FC in the 1st war. Though with the clans, it would not be stopped due to soldiers morals. The clanners would enjoy removing the freeborn barbarians from worlds. They can always rebuild them.
The clans had one major advantage in a war of destruction. The IS didn't know where they were at. The exodus road was reviled only after the truce fight. Again, the limited resources of the IS would hamper any sort of attempt to find them. Comstar would have a good idea, given they should have known the systems the Outbound Light would be searching. And given the fact Walterly was excited to try and use the clans to force the houses into submission, it is likely she would have aided the clans still and did a coms blackout with the houses. That is how out of touch with reality she was.
The mech was supposed to be the weapon that made all obsolete. The problem is, they aren't. Kings of the battlefield, yet that only seems to be one on one.
Economics was never something they wanted to get into detail with, as it shows the entire house is built with cards on quicksand. The LC being the economic giant, should have been able to just out build everyone. Even with inept commanders, they should have won by brute force. Simple dropship hordes. The CC and even the DC for part of it, would have fallen due to an inability to keep a full economy working. Limits on what is acceptable would limit just what could be done.
Guns being a main factor here. The CC and DC would want to keep guns from the populace, yet that means no one would have them to go guerilla against an invader. It would all be military units. The negates a lot of defensive units. The gangs used by the CC would be worthless against an invader. Even just limiting what the populace can buy and use would destroy most of the economy.
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Requiem
08/22/21 10:37 PM
124.184.134.200
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To suggest otherwise, would mean Comstar was sympathetic to the invaders.
No I do not believe so, the Clans are using some of their POWs as intermediaries to get a message through – remember Genyosha Vs Kell Hounds – they captured a soldier and used him as an intermediary to set the time and place for their duel. Same principle.
So no, I do believe there is a catch 22 here it is all on the up and up.
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no one in the IS that was talking knew the clans were not one political machine.
It all comes down to when the Dragoons spill the beans and let the IS know they were once the Clans Recon force.
The longer they sit and say nothing the worse it will be for them – in all reality the Dragoons should have supplied this information way earlier than in the books – also if it comes out that they had warships and did not let the IS know this there will be payback one way or another – politicians and rulers have long memories when it comes to vengeance!
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Given the brainwashing of the clan people, they would more likely being a full genocide of the IS.
Sorry I do not believe this is going to be a clockwork orange scenario. As in the event of Genocide there is no option but to initiate the full nuclear 1st succession war on steroids scenario.
Also the time required to actually complete such a scenario would be high as well as the psychological toll this puts on individuals. So unless they are going to use a biological weapon specifically designed for a human DNA this will get messy very fast, and it will also kill off the game as I doubt anyone would want to engage in a game of mass genocide I know I would walk away at even the mere suggestion.
As for the Ares convention – depends on the ruler as well as the soldiers under them as to how long it is expected to last.
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Few people wanted to fight tanks, so they stuck it with mech on mech.
Then why have TROs why have RCTs – if it is not used then ditch it from the game.
If it is in the game then use it. Having it in the game and yet ignoring it from the point of view of the invasion just turns the entire clan invasion into a far worse joke than it currently is!
Other wise why are we discussing Nukes, warships, fighters, elementals etc – as if it is just Mech on Mech you might as well just throw everything else away!
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they would have used all their forces they could get, and not had the stupid bidding wars before the invasion.
These are the rules the clans established – Remove them then all the wars between the Clans are now no longer circle of equal battles they are massive wars – in all reality I doubt the clans would have bothered to invade as they would be too engrossed in killing each other if this was the case.
Again the idea that the clans would just invade with no limit would require how much in logistics to pull off and would initiate another Nuclear 1st succession war scenario. So rebuilding worlds that glow in the dark is going to be an interesting prospect.
Walterly - only a deranged fool would go down this path, Focht will just have to execute her earlier.
Yes the clans home worlds were a secret and yet how long would that last – sooner or later the IS will discover this information.
Economics – yes it is bad – but is far worse than this – ComStar rules communication – so what happens if there is ‘ComStar’ that rules all the banks?
Also after being engaged in war for how many centuries that are a very large amount of people who’s wealth and prosperity is predicated upon the continuance of the war , hence peace is not something they would want to contemplate – thus they would buy the contracts of mercenaries to continue the war and then there are poor worlds close to the borders who are given grants by the rich to buy weapons and continue the war – trapped in a vicious cycle that in order to keep their people fed they have to do all the fighting …
The medieval society is way harsher than that depicted in the battletech universe.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/23/21 12:56 AM
45.51.181.83
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Distance is again the factor. To send a captured soldier across a world is not the same and communicating to a world light years away. Unless you are going to send a ship with them, there is no real way to talk to each other. The Comstar blackout would be seen as the HPGs being taken. To suggest they were still in contact would be suspicious at best, accused of helping the clans at worse. And with Comstar being armed, it is unlikely that they would not retake such a facility. They were not as tied down in garrisons to move troops around to do so. The warships were still a secret at this time, so they would not be a deciding factor in this.
And for repeated trips to set one up, the house lords would demand having their own reps aboard as well. If nothing else, to see if their intel people had anything. They would not say this of course.
Time is the key. The Dragoons didn't say anything when the first wave of nukes would be going off. Comstar might advise against it, but couldn't do more without revealing they were already in contact with the invaders. As a side note, the notion they were pirates that found a large SL cache, which may well have been RWR units, would not be able to maintain the warships for long without a steady supply of parts and resources. So this may be why the IS wasn't prioritizing the destruction of those vessels.
For the IS, they would sicken of a total warfare scenario. The clans are a different story. They might be sickened at the waste of resources more then removing the locals of their lives by any means. At least on the Crusader side. The wardens might try to do something, but the fact the war was happening, says they lost the last time they tried to stop it. The wardens would be more likely to claim worlds and challenge the others, but even this might not last. A few nukes may well cause them to realize it was a lost cause. Wether they pull out or respond like the Crusaders would is the question.
Fighting Vehicles did not enter the game until Citytech. TRO 3025 wasn't even out when the boxed game was on the shelf for the first time. Armored infantry may have been as a hold over from Battledriods was the initial game. I don't know that far back. But to have mechs supposed to be so rare, vehicles would have to fill up the spots to actually garrison things along with infantry. The reason for RCTS come down to the fact that mechs don't hold things like cities very well. They don't hold assets very well when they only have a single mech on duty. So they had to add in something that could. Otherwise leaving it unguarded, as that means anyone walking in to do what they want.
The agreement to attack the IS was based on warrior against warrior. Not having entire warship compliments wiped out by nukes and such. Once the first wave hit, the messages sent back to the home worlds would have changed the entire format of the invasion. And this was originally stated that if the clans were set up like the IS. NO sibko bs. No simple bids of forces. Just use everything you can, and have massive reserves that are ready to go, just like the succession wars or the Amaris conflict.
Once the initial nuke fest happened, the clans would have the advantage as I don't know of any shipyards in the 3000 era were built after the SL was around. So the clans could take out those yards, while the IS had no idea where the clans were at. Eventually, only the clans would have jump vessels. It might take a century or more, but this is the most likely result. Comstar being the odd one out. Their choice of joining the clans or the IS being what determines their fate.
Focht may well have been taken out before it got that far. If he seemed to resist her concept, she may well have removed him. It was only after operation Scorpion that he killed her. He did nothing when she was planning on using the clans to take out the IS houses.
One suggestion to the alt, would be design the dropship pocket warships during the SL era and run with it from there. This should remove the issue of them not being around later on. It seems misplaced that this wasn't done in canon. I know TPTB didn't want this, but it is a logical step in naval design. Dropships are cheaper to use and lose then even the smallest warship. You can spread out a fleet of them and cover more area, such as a single Monolith dropping them off in system.
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Requiem
08/23/21 06:44 AM
124.184.134.200
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Yes the ComStar blackout would be seen as the HPG s have been taken – taken however does not mean that they are inoperable.
In times of emergency you look around for ways to communicate – and on hand the only people who can communicate with the Inner Sphere (as far as the Clans know) is their captured ComStar personnel. As only ComStar has access to all the Great Houses – thus making them the only group who can deliver their message.
Or this could even be done in reverse – the Great Houses (after discussing the issue with Wolf’s Dragoons) send multiple messages into Clan Space – thus putting the ball in the Clan’s court.
There really is nothing suspicious about this.
Also warships cannot be secret at this stage as it is post Turtle Bay and the DC have nuked this ship in retaliation – hence the request for a summit to discuss the Rule of War going forward, before a 1st Succession War Nuclear War eventuates.
Both sides would need to determine a neutral place in which to hammer out the accords.
Yes I agree the Dragoons didn’t say anything – however, this is Canon’s black hole of a mistake.
In all reality I believe Rhonda Snord would have informed on the Dragoons – forcing them to now communicate the truth. As she is by far the most pro Inner Sphere and Elvis supporter – “Elvis was an artist, but that didn’t stop him from serving his country in time of war. That’s why he’s the king, and you’re a shmuck! Azrael” (Quote from the film Dogma)
So what will happen ultimately is a trial of grievance between the crusaders and the wardens to determine the fate of the Inner Sphere ….
BattleForce – first published 1986 – Back cover
As commander of a mixed-force regiment, your unit includes a number of BattleMechs, the most awesome weapon ever placed on a battlefield. You've also got every kind of tank, including tracked, wheeled and hovercraft. AeroSpace Fighters and DropShips make up your air support. Then, too, there are the troopers who will be the unsung heroes of your infantry.
CityTech – first published 1986 – Back cover
The city also provides cover for your many enemies. Infantrymen fire at you from windows, while tanks and armored vehicles snipe at you from the alleys and streets.
TRO 3025 – first published 1986
They all came out in 1986 …
Economics and technology are the reasons why there are more vehicles – decreasing ability to manufacture Mechs (making them expensive) whilst at the same time vehicles are cheap and can me manufactured in mass quantities.
Even during the Star League era there were more vehicle regiments than mech regiments within the SLDF.
Sorry but no the clans will not respond to the IS’s use of a nuke with a mass attack – The attacking force won the right to be there and fight for the right to become Il-Clan – the Home Clans lost and are thus relegated to remain on the Home Worlds.
They can only be activated by the Il-Khan …. And for an il-Khan to allow this would mean that he/she has lost control of the situation, there is absolutely no way any il-Khan will recognise a personal failure of this magnitude!
Politically if an il-khan did so it would also be the death knell for that Khan’s clan – they would be seen as incompetent of the highest order – better to initiate a trial of annihilation than risk being contaminated by such a failure!
Suck is the way of the Mongol – In victory strength and prosperity – in defeat destruction at the hands of your fellow Mongol warriors hands!
Also even if all the clans did attack – yes the sibko bs is still there the underlying problem remains!
Also the succession wars and the Amaris conflict involved one united SLDF – here we have multiple Clan cells each with their own political agenda they would want to push.
Question – how many of the Home Clans would like to see those in the IS fail ? my bet nearly all of them – thus how many would be looking long term and considering the possibilities that if these clans can be severely weakened y the IS – they can then either destroy or absorb then via the trial system and then the Home clans can go in for an second time, and this time do it the right way!
Remember this is the POLITICAL age within the Clans I would not put it past some of the clans to consider this the best option rather than attacking the Inner Sphere – they could just as easily say its your problem and has nothing to with us! Just so they can kill off their political Clan enemies or absorb them.
Focht – reminds me of many of the German Generals prior to Valkyrie – plotting in the wings.
As for the dropship pocket warships – Yes I absolutely agree with you - they should have been designed and manufactured as Warships became impossible / difficult to manufacture as a replacement for warships. Thus during the succession wars – as they were already being used as bombers annihilating entire worlds with nukes and chemical / biological weapons so taking them one step further is not beyond the bounds of reality.
They would make excellent guards against a planetary invasion fleet.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/23/21 12:30 PM
45.51.181.83
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Sorry, I forgot to state Comstars warships were secret at this point.
The pocket warships would be far more effective with planetary blockades, as warships are too expensive to just sit around a world while fights go on elsewhere. A single warship, as powerful at it is, will not make an effective blockade force. Ships will launch in numbers and scatter. With the pocket warships, they can at least cover more ground and take down dropships with their capital weapons. It is also a little easier getting a dropship near a world without alerting the defenders.
The basis of the clans being set up like the IS mean no sibko. No real divisions like separate clans. Yes, they will have political divisions in them, just like the IS, but they would not be hampered by the low numbers issue. They would also be ready to send in more forces at a moment's notice. This would include bringing in even more clans and doing the full scale scorched earth policy with the IS. I would also think they would have found new ways of taking out people without destroying structures. Hate to say it be Bio and chemical weapons would be used. I hate it, but that is the logical progress along these lines. With this, the clans would be more likely to have some sort of defense against radiation beyond the normal suits. As the mechs cockpit, and I would think a sealed Elemental suit, should be immune to radiation, they would not be so worried about it. Clean up would be something they should be able to do, especially since terraforming should still be something they can do. This would extend to cleaning up the bio and chemicals used as well. If it takes a few years, well they are not so worried.
It the total war game, the side that sickens first would probably surrender. Given the moral outlook of the clans, it would be the IS. I would think individual worlds would do so first, but in the end the leaders would realize it is just a matter of time.
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Requiem
08/23/21 04:55 PM
124.184.134.200
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The problem with ‘drop-ship pocket warships’ when it comes to battle with a warship is twofold: -
1. drop-ship size now makes it a legitimate target for warships main batteries – with reduced armour.
2. and two its weapons package is severely limited to that of a warship’s main batteries – thus the warship has the potential ability to stand-off and engage them at distance.
As stated above politics will get in the way of any invasion by every clan and if it was to occur, we are now right back to the same issue of a 1st Succession Nuclear War. And yes, the IS will initiate a program to hunt for the Clan Home-Worlds.
Limited resistance to radiation – space suits for example? How about all their vehicles – massive decontamination will now be required – how long will that last in the rad zones. However, nothing will stop the initial explosion – massive energy / heat wave – the same as being thrown into the sun!
As for cleaning a world post nuclear war – simple evacuate the planet and scratch it off the map for the next couple thousand years as terraforming cannot clean up a world post nuclear war.
Sorry to say but once this type of war commences it will only finish with the genocide of one side or the other – there will be no middle ground. Thus, the BattleTech story will devolve quickly into a horror story of involving multiple atrocities committed by both sides – who both believe they are in the right. This is not the path that I would consider as a worthwhile game, as it would now make the Jihad look rational by comparison. Also, if the Clans did go down such a path this is undeniable proof that they are no longer the descendants of the SLDF they are now undeniably the descendants of Amaris.
So yes, this is a possible direction the war could take – but why? Every world where this war touched would now be like a periphery Mad Max type World of anarchy with little to no law and high death count due to sickness and everything being poisoned – is this really the type of game anyone would want?
Not for me thank you. I like a little sanity in the game.
So again, either the IS has naval vessels when the clans come in or limited nuclear strike followed by a summit to hammer out the rules of war and the Home Clans stay out of the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/23/21 05:20 PM
45.51.181.83
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The naval weapon equipped dropships was not so much to attack warships, though they would if needed, but to guard areas against dropships that are unauthorized in the area. Normal weapons aren't that scary to a dropship captain. Put on a weapon that can out range and do more damage then everything on the other dropship, and things change. Even scarier is when the dropship is a fighter carrier as well. Now you have naval weapons and fighters to deal with.
Also, having the pocket warships would allow some warships to actually have a chance against others. The added firepower and extra targets would help even or increase the odds of success.
In the extreme cases, the dropships would engage a warship without the assistance of other warships.
As this is a future sci fi game, why couldn't nuclear waste be cleaned up after shots were fired? It is possible to remove bio matter as well as chemical matter, what makes nuclear matter impossible? It is possible in the SL tech era to create drones that can seek out actual radioactive material on the surface and in the air, and remove it. That will dramatically reduce the radiation in the air. Scrubbing the air to remove radiation itself should be something that can be done. It will not be done in a few hours. It may take tens of years. But much shorter then thousands.
As a nuclear war of this sort may not reduce the entire world to a glowing ember, but that depends on where the military is hiding at. If they are in the cities when using such weapons, then you will have to destroy the cities. Being an invader, you do have the option of mass drivers to take out planets without the nuclear fall out. It would even help if the asteroids used were things that could be mined once the asteroid is planetside.
Also, if the Clans did go down such a path this is undeniable proof that they are no longer the descendants of the SLDF they are now undeniably the descendants of Amaris.
I love this one. The SL did this very thing in the periphery strikes as well as hitting Amaris. Tactical/strategic strikes can be used without destroying the whole world. Granted, clan thinking might just wipe it all out.
Take a step backward now. Who was the first to start using nukes like candy? Not the clans, but the IS. So the IS would be shown as taking up Amaris's concepts of war. That would cause the clans to respond to remove such a taint from paradise.
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Karagin
08/23/21 05:42 PM
70.118.172.64
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So we are removing the Exodus Civil War from the whole thing?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/24/21 02:14 AM
45.51.181.83
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As stated before, it would be far easier to just dump canon for the alt. So much would have to change to fit the narrative, that there is no plausible way the future could be the same. If the statement of getting away from canon is true, then a lot of things would not be reliant on specific events.
The nukes used in WWII could have been defective, making the nuclear bomb get pushed back from being deployed. It could still lead to nuclear energy, but the concept of the bomb might well be lessened. It would be fixed for certain, but leave a bad taste in the mouths of warmongers. Bio and chemical could be shelved with a few mistakes made. This would definitely change the story of the game, so there is no way it could be close to canon. The terran alliance used chemical weapons on protesters before the main exodus from earth.
There is no way Requiem would remove the nukes from the clan history, otherwise his favorite clan, the Wolverines, would never have been chased out. No nuke, no depository destruction.
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Requiem
08/24/21 05:08 AM
124.184.134.200
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The naval weapon equipped dropships was not so much to attack warships
Correct, even though they have been given the nom de plume of ‘pocket warship class’ this is in fact a complete misnomer – they are in fact no more than patrol torpedo boat (PT boat) class. The main problem with many of them within Canon is their speed – for PTs to be effective they MUST be very fast.
Which again shows a lack of military knowledge.
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why couldn't nuclear waste be cleaned up after shots were fired?
First, Half-year life of the explosive.
Depends upon the material used to manufacture the warhead.
https://www.atomicarchive.com/resources/documents/effects/wenw/chapter-2.html
Second, once it is within all aspects of the food chain how do you fix this?
Third, cost – who is going to pay for a dead world to be brought back to life?
Fourth, opportunity cost – rather than bringing a dead world back to life can we consider what we could use this money and resources for other than bringing a dead world back to life? Hospitals, Schools, …. Weapon systems for the next war ….
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mass drivers
Er … what happened to the dinosaurs when hit? Mass extinction event due to the destruction of the ecosystem (winter due to particles in the upper atmosphere caused by the explosion).
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Who was the first to start using nukes like candy?
Now take a step back, who was the first to start using orbital bombardment and who threatened to used an orbital bombardment for the second time?
Thus leaving all IS Great House Leaders with the only option available as they did not have any other weapon system to contend with a Warship – the nuclear option.
TPTB have painted the IS Great Houses into a corner their one and only response for an orbital bombardment is a nuclear strike!
So again who is using the only weapon and the only choice war by any means necessary to that they can remain free of a despot government ? sounds more like canon’s Kerensky and not Amaris !
If the clans then invaded en mass with genocide – this is most definitely Amaris !
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the Wolverines, would never have been chased out. No nuke, no depository destruction.
That is unless you use an orbital bombardment or an errant aerospace fighter laden with bombs rammed into it or if the building had an external fuel supply tank that was hit by an errant shot, exploded and took out the majority of the building – the fire then wiped out the remaining building …
Again, I would like to reiterate that nukes are just props in the game – used to create dynamic events and to cause shock and horror …. In my opinion it would be for the best just to get rid of them and all WMDs as they just ruin the story !
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/24/21 09:22 AM
70.118.172.64
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I am asking because their Civil War set the grounds for what the Clans became. So if he wants them around in some shape or fashion he needs their civil war or something similar.
As for the Wolverines, there is more to them than just their fighting as they left Clan space. Again the Exodus Civil War was the forge that gave us the Clans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/24/21 10:55 AM
45.51.181.83
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The question then comes to why even bother with terraforming any world? It is the same thing. Removing harmful to humans things from an environment and making the air breathable. This include things like changing out plant life and such to allow humans to eat and drink the local food and water.
The effect of mass drivers is to wipe out life on a world, and not having it glow in the dark afterwards. The impacts are the main thing to do the initial destruction. This is far easier to fix then nukes, and still does the removal of life.
The SL was the first to use nukes enmasse. They used them during the periphery wars, twice, as well as against their own worlds with Amaris. This also included orbital bombardment.
Now saying the clans are Amaris descendants while the IS would be the first to start the use of nukes and they would do orbital bombardments once they regained building warships is off.
The history of the IS during the succession wars shows they are willing to do so again. And given the fact none of them protested the use of these tactics used by the SLDF during those wars, it brings into question not if, but when the IS would use them against the clans.
Where in the story line did the clans keep using orbital bombardment as their main means of attack. They destroyed Turtle Bay, and that was it. The talk of making a story exciting, then removing a major threat from a story line sounds backwards. Might as well nerf the clans back into the time before humans left Terra. That would make it more exciting...
The repositories where not something like apartment buildings. They were made with things as close to indestructible as possible, so a simple fuel tank explosion would not destroy it, if the clans were stupid enough to have one there. A missed shot from orbit would be found out to be from another clan, not the Wolverines. Simple review of a battle would show this. As not enough information is given, the chance that a warship was fighting over the area was too small to even try. If tried, it is more likely the clans would have seen Nicholas's duplicity in it and started to question everything about his plans.
It is very true the clan civil war made the people agree to forming the clans, but remember that the alt wants to do away with them entirely. Or change them from the SLDF to the RWR. But this isn't an issue really if the statement of getting away from canon entirely is accurate. Sadly, I think we will see the same names come up with a slightly different set of circumstances, instead of an actual new slate.
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Karagin
08/24/21 11:47 AM
70.118.172.64
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Orbital Bombardment is not the same as the use of nukes. You can target a bombardment of naval weapons, whereas a nuke is a one-way area target weapon, not a pinpoint deal.
If he wants them gone, then changes need to happen BEFORE the SLDF takes back Terra. Something needs to be there to convince Kerensky and the other senior officers that they are the ones to take control vs running.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/24/21 12:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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You could help stop the nuke with the simple concept of not abandoning the Ares Conventions. That changes the history of the story line, though it means something has to give in the periphery wars, both reunification and rebellion.
I was thinking of suggesting the nukes used in WWII didn't work for some reason, such as the bomb design was flawed, or the right detonation cap wasn't used.
But any change requires a full change of the future/past of the story line. Some events can not happen, while others would come about that didn't. The destruction of all the wars would be changed, so radiation would not be why colonies were abandoned. Certain medical procedures would have to be changed. Even power production would have to be changed.
It can be done, but not easily.
But the simple thing way to deal with it, is keep it as a back ground threat, without using it often. The anger against those using nukes does motivate most people into wanting to stop those that do. Only the more sinister WMD garner more anger.
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Karagin
08/24/21 12:45 PM
70.118.172.64
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A simple overuse prior to the Ares Convention coming about, aka the POINT of the Convention, and thus the idea that using them is abhorrent and wrong. That could be the reason they aren't used anymore by anyone. Anyone who does use them, well it would be criminal and thus making them a pariah across known space.
Also, NO player should be tossing them around, thus background lost to history kind of thing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/24/21 02:13 PM
124.184.134.200
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So if he wants them around in some shape or fashion he needs their civil war or something similar.
If you must know.
I find the Canon Clans irredeemable, reprehensible, and totally unrealistic.
To believe the ‘paladins’ of the SLDF fall so low within in the same generation that they departed the Inner Sphere is very hard to believe usually it is a very gradual process one small step, then another, and one day you find yourself a member of a totalitarian regime … due to both internal and external forces.
So lets get a few things understood …the entire Kerensky exodus is an absolute and utter shower of the highest magnitude! This is something you would expect of governments, not military - who usually require a plan, would also like to know where they are headed and why and would also appreciate an exit strategy ….
First, the military commanders of the SLDF are supposed to be some of the most intelligent from many different fields …
Second, they left the IS to preserve the values of the Star League and the SLDF as well as to reject the partisan values of the Great Houses – what this means is that the idea of succession by birth is now abhorrent to them (Thus the idea of Nicky becoming the successor to the Commander of the SLDF by birth and not ability is now ridiculous)
Third, the idea that the SLDF didn’t go into the exodus with eyes wide open is again ridiculous (when you are going to establish a whole new society within multiple new systems you will have to realize that 99% of the military will need to cash out of the military and take up civilian positions … this is a given … you cannot all remain in the military thus the majority will be in engineering civil construction and agriculture … the whole Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs must be understood by all going into this exodus …
Top to bottom …
Self-actualization – achieving one’s full potential including creative activities.
Esteem needs – prestige and feeling of accomplishment
Belongingness and love needs – intimate relationships, friends
Safety needs – security, safety
Physiological needs – food, water, warmth, rest (the whole - food, shelter, clothing bit etc)
Fourth, the idea that a new society on a new worlds requires all the military equipment they had whist being the SLDF becomes ridiculous – the majority of this will be needed to swapped over for civilian equipment as well as agricultural supplies etc …. ie. everything that an exodus fleet would have taken and more when they departed Terra to set up a new colony world.
Fifth, if this is going to go ahead ‘in secret’, then it will take time, years in fact to establish all the equipment necessary – dummy corporations will be needed to be set up, transport and warehousing of supplies (food and water for example will take up a massive amount of space) and will be necessary etc Also if animals are along for the ride this will also complicate matters…
Sixth, where are all the funds for these massive civilian purchases coming from?
Seventh, civilian experts will be required – civilian contractors, medical, farming, teaching etc …. Thus this little joint across space cannot be open to just SLDF personnel and their families it now must be open to others who may want to come along – thus the idea of a security leak now becomes a possibility!
Eighth, if the SLDF are going to look for new worlds it might be handy to take with them company explorers (and their ships) who’s employment is to find resource rich worlds that can sustain human habitation without the need for terraforming – as terraforming takes way too long and being stuck in a tin can for multiple years is again a ridiculous concept due to muscle and bone density fatigue, food and water etc – too many people and not enough gravity wheels etc on board ships.
Thus rather than marginally habitable worlds – what we are looking for are extremely habitable worlds – this also begs the question water is constantly required to be replenished (as per Operation Serpent) – so if Kerensky found an extremely habitable world why didn’t he settle for this than continuing on his voyage of the dammed? Was he that scared his people would run back to the IS unless they were so far distant that they had no choice but to remain – imprisoned by the tyranny of distance as well as ensuring all navigational logs were destroyed. This really speaks to canon’s Kerensky’s tyrannical nature towards the end of his life – as also shown in the Prinz Eugen incident! So how can a dictator establish a new colony and not expect it to go off the rails in a civil war down the track?
Thus in all reality it may be prudent to not act like some governments and run head long into a venture with no real plan, no achievable goals and no real and quantifiable exit strategy. (as demonstrated by some current governments and the crisis they find themselves in). In all reality therefore a secret space station within the deep periphery will be needed to be established with multiple explorer ships and HPG buoys to explore in advance of the main fleet to actually find an adequate destination prior to leaving the IS (thus you can quantify food requirements etc and not leaving it up to chance as per Kerensky’s trip to hell and back – mutiny and martial law during the voyage indicate a complete and utter failure …no idea how long the voyage would last so how do you plan for food and war needs for how many millions of people? ie a complete and utter logistical failure that should have added starvation and dehydration to the list of failures …)
Nineth, if the fleet is going to be as large as canon suggests it might be prudent to have as many mobile ship / dropship repair yard Vessels as possible – suggest expediting construction of as many of these vessels as possible
Tenth, you will want to take as much as you can with you thus you will require as many of the largest drop-ship Classes and jump-ship transport Classes as you can find to be included in the fleet.
Eleventh, if you are going to set up a new society, wouldn’t it be a good idea to determine how this is going to operate before you leave the IS and not just impose martial law throughout the voyage and afterwards – forcing people to test out and become farmers when they absolutely never had any intention of becoming a famer when they left the IS is a great way to start a civil war. That is, surely if you are leaving for a new life you actually know what that new life will be when you get there …
And there are more points to consider
In a nutshell just winging it whist taking a massive amount of military hardware, as it appears in the Kerensky canon story, is a great way you are going to end in a farcical tragedy! And was shown to have actually happened!
Then there is the society you are attempting to build … this should have been determined prior to leaving the IS as everyone would want to know what they are on this voyage for … why are they suffering this trip for … what is the goal at the end of the rainbow?
From the get go, you have rejected the idea of anything Inner Sphere like – So no to the idea of …
Nobility rank
Succession based upon birth rather than achievement (thus Nicky becoming the next leader is now impossible, unless he actually works for it over a very long period of time – demonstrating his ability not his name!)
A multicultural society that values diversification and abhors the sectarianism of the Great Houses – ie I am not from a Great House – I am of the Star League!
Everyone working together to form and work for a collective goal.
Then you have to ask will they reject the idea of currency in any form – people work for and are looked after, in all things, by the state?
So from there you have to make a choice and create your new society – give it values etc and breathe life into it with a rich and dynamic history – you also have to ask why they became militaristic.
Then you have to ask what system would best represent these values? Could be either a form of communism or democracy or something even older such as the Greek Spartans (minus the helots and way more egalitarian in values - such as those of the French Revolution mixed in).
At this stage a lot of care must be taken, in creating the new model SLDF society.
From there you work on your new society as best you can.
So, in the end you are as far removed from the canon clans as you can get!
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Removing harmful to humans things from an environment and making the air breathable. This include things like changing out plant life and such to allow humans to eat and drink the local food and water.
Who is going to do all this work, how much is it going to cost, and what is timeline years or decades?
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mass drivers … This is far easier to fix then nukes, and still does the removal of life.
How is fixing an ice age imposed by too much particles in the upper atmosphere – blocking the sun – easier to fix?
Also the SLDF went through a nuclear hell during the Amaris War – so wouldn’t their values be against their use ?
So wouldn’t they recognise that they have painted the Great Houses into a corner by utilizing an orbital bombardment – thus the best way to ensure this does not progress any further is to have a summit?
You cannot use your fists every time and expect people to listen! There are times when diplomacy is the only option.
They are Amaris descendants if they start geocoding people – which some of the clans already did during their long history – for their slaves revolting or for genetic purity!
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it brings into question not if, but when the IS would use them against the clans.
Problem is that recent history of warfare within the IS has explicitly removed the nuke and all chemical / biological weapons from war … so the question is what would drive the IS to re-using a weapon they themselves had expressly forbidden to use ever again?
Who and why would someone push them into a corner where they have no choice but to use it?
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They destroyed Turtle Bay, and that was it.
Problem is that the Jade Falcons threatened a RCT with an orbital strike if they did not immediately surrender. So now we have two clans and two separate incidents.
How many more possible incidents of orbital bombardment are the IS going to take before they strike back?
Currently the rule is even one use of an atomic weapon on any allied nation and the response is a complete release of ALL nuclear assets – Russia, China, America, Israel, Pakistan, India …
Each situation must be analysed due to its current historical effects on the individuals in which it affects as well as its broader societal effects …
Turtle Bay … the Coordinators Son … A Samurai Culture … House Honour …. The main people involved …… how their action will be perceived by their people and by their enemies … there is but one logical course of action post Turtle Bay – Nuking the warship out of space! This is the ONLY weapon system the DCMS has as a response to which the Clans will get the point – do this again and watch out!
Remember this is how the Coordinator of the DCMS talks to the Clans – though their actions. (13 day Cuban Missile Crisis proved this point!!!!!)
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The repositories where not something like apartment buildings. They were made with things as close to indestructible as possible
Why? This is a wase of materials as no one believed prior to the incident that such an act could ever occur. After the act – this is when they are placed in massive bunkers to protect them.
Also, there is absolutely nothing that man makes that man cannot destroy also!
As for the fuel tank explosion – what happens if a structural weakness is established and all that concrete is now bearing down on it? Same as a dam and the water bearing down on it – propagation cracks are established which finally leads to structural failure – the building falls over due to its own immense size and weight when they manufactured an indestructible as possible building.
As for the shot from orbit – please read the novel – Wolverine warships were in orbit. As for Nicky he has effectively whipped all the remaining Khans into his obedient house pets – loyal to him alone due to fear. Which really shows how far the SLDF has fallen when they refuse to speak up when it is clear an injustice is being done! Only one Khan is said to have had any remorse.
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the alt wants to do away with them entirely.
Yep, they are gone! – completely new slate – majority will change for the better!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/24/21 03:30 PM
45.51.181.83
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The SLDF had issues with regional loyalties from the troops from the houses before they left.
To suggest Kerensky was a hack, then say the SLDF was supposed to be the top minds around is a bit contradictive.
The concept of the depots around the IS would also include building materials and such. It would be part of the military to have the parts to build a new city almost anywhere, as that is basically what it would take to keep an RCT functioning in hostile territory.
From the sounds of it, the SL DID explore a lot of the galaxy beyond the periphery. Why would Comstar be the only one to do this? Besides looking for the SLDF. The SL would have been looking for resources with no strings attached, IE no one else owned or claimed. Hence hidden bases abound. This would also decrease the houses power, as the TH portion would not be as reliant on them for those resources. Also, looking for hidden assets of the periphery states would force such action.
so the question is what would drive the IS to re-using a weapon they themselves had expressly forbidden to use ever again?
Your answer goes like this. Without warships of their own, the IS would nuke the clans. Not sure why this concept was missed when asking why the IS would start using nukes if they were banned. They used them throughout the succession wars, yet were banned by a treaty all disregarded. History repeats itself.
For the clans, removing the barbarians was the priority. Worlds were not something they needed at the time. So if it takes a decade, as long as the IS can't live on it, they would be fine. In the end, costs were not much of an issue with the clans other then to limit the clans from having more then they could use. And in their minds, sending a bunch of freeborns to clean up a world would have been a good thing, as it removes some of them from the home worlds. If they died, well there are more freeborns then can send.
And yes. Removing the crap from the air is easier to fix the nuclear fall out. Not sure why this was necessary to re-state.
Still don't get the fact that threats in war is normal. There is only one instance of warships being used to destroy something in the invasion. The DC used threats from the time they were formed into the future. Submit or die is the main concept of war. And what do you know, the DC used warships to wipe out a chunk of the FS forces in the future. OOOOOPPS!
Funny thing about the nuclear powers of the world. It is someone like North Korea that will start the end, not the big ones.
The Coordinator of the DC proved the clans would destroy him as he followed the old ways. The clans were far better at one on one then the DCMS was. Equipment was only part of why. Theodore was the one to turn the DC around, and finally started getting the DCMS out of the rut of some of the outdates parts of the old way. The DC had a lot in common with the clans. Disdain for anything that wasn't a mech being one. So yeah. Takashi told the clans that they would lose if he kept running the DC.
The genetic materials were worth more then almost everything else. To lose it meant the death of the clan. This is almost like asking why you put your HQ in an underground hardened bunker.
So where other warships. The fact that the flight with the nuke was engaged by Wolverine forces is where the truth was muddled. In orbit with all those ships watching, the Wolverines would not have fired making the story that much easier to disprove. To even try to use the nuke, the Ravens had to limit who knew what. So no one could be called to lie on the witness stand in court. This is how Nicolas was able to twist the truth.
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Requiem
08/24/21 08:50 PM
124.184.134.200
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To suggest Kerensky was a hack, then say the SLDF was supposed to be the top minds around is a bit contradictive.
Really? Remember he is a political appointee – Prior to taking the top job - half his career - the highest rank he achieved in the field is Captain – the other half of his career is within the Commander in Chief’s office as her aide.
How many people in the top job in the government are incompetent whist all around them they have all the smartest men in the room – and they still make an absolute wreck out of the job?
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the SL DID explore a lot of the galaxy beyond the periphery.
From the maps it would appear to be within the IS looking for new systems with no strings attached (for every known system there is potentially thousands of systems around it that have not been explored) – not beyond the periphery. It appears as the Periphery States / independent contractors / company explorers were the ones actively seeking new systems beyond the periphery.
Yes, the SLDF has access to civil engineering equipment – to a point as well as food and water. They do not, however, have access to farming / agriculture / viticulture / horticulture / aquaculture etc They also do not have access to civilian textiles. They also need many civilian businesses infrastructure, to establish a new society …
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Your answer goes like this. Without warships of their own, the IS would nuke the clans. Not sure why this concept was missed when asking why the IS would start using nukes if they were banned.
Not banned – an agreement not to use them – and what I have been saying all along – is nuke the warships first …. Not an all-out atomic war on every base and every ship and every planetary invasion …
This is a proportional strike – how many films / series regarding the President of the US have him / her ordering a proportional strike against some terrorist base because they bombed some US base / Embassy etc? This is the same plot development here – the Clans destroy a city via orbital bombardment and so the DC retaliate as – using a proportionate response – and nuke their ship.
This is the DC talking to the Clans – there are consequences!
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For the clans, removing the barbarians was the priority.
Yes removing the Clan barbarians is a priority – this is why you have psy-ops groups working on the free-born and the use of freeborn units for garrison duty – the absolute contempt the true born have for freeborn is a wedge that must be exploited.
If your team was sent to a nuclear contaminated world and you had an out by defecting do you really believe they would die for a regime that held them in such contempt?
Theis is the problem what happens to a clan if the majority of its free-born decide one day they have had enough and the IS assists them with a massive coup?
My bet is that Clan within the IS is now dead!
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And what do you know, the DC used warships to wipe out a chunk of the FS forces in the future. OOOOOPPS!
And what does this postulate for the majority of all future warfare within the IS – every house and clan uses warships to wipe out a chunk of their enemies forces in the future. OOOOOPPS! The TPTB have now shifted the game it is now no longer about Mech warfare it is now about using naval warships to obliterate your enemies ground forces whist still on the ground!
Can anyone explain why you would put 20% of all your forces on one planet at the same time?
Also it was clear the First Price was deranged so why keep him in power?
Sorry this story arc has all the believability of a cat flap in a nuclear submarine!
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The Coordinator of the DC proved the clans would destroy him as he followed the old ways.
Er no … as stated … Takashi followed the old ways … Theodore has initiated reforms … as seen during the conquest of Wolcott where the Smoke Jaguars LOST!
And can anyone explain why only one Clan was targeted – as stated many times this is one of the most ridiculous actions I have ever read – and BattleTech has more than a few that defy all reason!
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The genetic materials were worth more then almost everything else. To lose it meant the death of the clan.
And prior to the Wolverine incident did anyone believe that another clan would ever consider destroying another clan’s repository – especially when the new rules clearly define the areas where you fight (circles of equals) – which would be far removed from a genetic repository in order to limit the damage.
Again, there is absolutely no reason to waste materials
Also, because the clans no longer fight the same way as the Inner Sphere what is the point of putting your HQ in an underground hardened bunker as it is expected that the Khan and the sa-khan are to be out in the field with the troops fighting from their cockpit? Again, they are not inner sphere military commanders.
As for the wolverines – please read the book.
One further point – no additional questions regarding the new exodus other than using explorer ships to find a new world(s) for them – as they really do not want a world that is already on the map.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/25/21 12:35 AM
45.51.181.83
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The SL would have been exploring systems around the IS and periphery, as that is part of what they did. Searching for pirates is but a small reason why they would do so. Failure to do so would mean more of what happened with the RWR would have happened. Secret worlds would be made by the Periphery and others, including the house lords. And we know the SL made such bases as well.
I would suggest looking at the Invader jumpship before saying the SL did not have access to hydroponics. The fact that any world that did not have a breathable atmosphere would have had such equipment installed, and this would also mean secret space stations. Civilians would not be allowed on those at all. The fact the the combat engineers would be required to set up such facilities, including Terraforming, would also suggest they had to have it. It is also required for assisting in finding cures for diseases as well as finding out what caused them.
You seem to fail to understand human thought patterns. What you consider appropriate would be considered weak or overblown by another person. Using a nuke against the clan warships would signify that you would not fight them honorably, so you should be treated in kind. Doesn't matter if the clans started it first. In their eyes, the IS was theirs to take when ever they wanted. Now someone decides to use force that is shunned by their standards. Do you not see the cycle of logic in this?
This also goes to say that Comstar knew how to make warships and did nothing to even suggest this to the IS, nor did they even fight against the clans with such measures until operation bulldog and task force serpent. Yet you suggest the SL was to give away all their tech to the houses?
What out is possible when the only thing that can get you out of system is a clan ship? The IS would be losing the war from all their jump capable vessels being destroyed along with anyplace that can make them. Until found, the clans homeworlds can pump those out making the attrition war theirs due to this fact. Once the nukes start, there is no turning back. The clans will wipe out all access to interstellar travel, and slowly take worlds at their leisure. Warships are theirs to use when they want. No need to nuke everything after there is little worry of the IS getting jump vessels. In system vessels are possible, but only on certain worlds. And that will not stop the clans from hitting them. It just means they will be ready for any attempts. Ion-Lithium battery trick will see to that. Pop in, see what is there, possibly launch shots against the enemy, and jump out before anything can hit them back.
Er no … as stated … Takashi followed the old ways … Theodore has initiated reforms
When did Theodore become the Coordinator? After Takashi was dead. So the statement was very valid. The Coordinator of the DC was showing that the clans had him beat. Again, this makes me wonder if you even know what the canon story is. It seems to be confused often with false facts or the alt.
And can anyone explain why only one Clan was targeted
This was explained a few times. You choose not to accept those explanations. And with this question being asked several times, it shows there is no comprehension of the canon story line.
Given the clans were started because of the civil war on the home worlds, why wouldn't you expect someone to try and kill off your clan before it even gets started? The honor road for them was not there. The events of the using of a nuke says that. People were still trying to see if the clans would work. The repository was their legacy. As stated, it was the most important thing at the time to preserve. Even tech was second to it. Given this comes from the Wolverines story, I don't see why this has to be explained yet again. You suggest the clans were afraid of Kerensky, yet that means the fact that all the others would not be concerned about the repositories being targeted.
Given the time of the repositories, the Civil war was still raging when the clans were formed and came out of the cluster. It was the clan fighting that stopped the war. Why wouldn't you have your HQ protected as best you could? Oh yeah. The actual time line screws up the altered facts. If the civil war participants had any clue, they would have struck the clans before they even got off the ground.
Every star in the galaxy would have been mapped out by anyone in charge. As for worlds in those systems, that is another story. This is also why the SLDF was concerned of pursuit. To be attacked before they even started building would be the death of them. To be honest, it would have been a smart idea to have any such map changed so no one knew where habitable worlds were. It would also be a good idea to change coordinates of some, to prevent someone from getting to them.
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Requiem
08/25/21 04:08 AM
124.184.134.200
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SLDF
Exploring unidentified systems with a view to establish ‘hidden’ fortresses / logistics command locations within the IS – Yes., this is very plausible – especially if they are adjacent to (within one jump) of regionally important worlds – based upon numerous criteria.
Exploring unidentified systems with a view to hunting pirates within the deep periphery – in my opinion this will be limited to a very cursory examination of the system for habitable worlds – if found to be a high probability habitat world they may undertake a further investigation – Though in reality as form 2655 my bet is that Mobile HPGs were established as satellites / space buoy with sensors – in the event a spaceship arrives – they send a signal back home the SLDF dispatch a s ship to investigate.
Though prior to 2655 the chance of ‘actually stumbling’ upon a pirate base within the deep periphery is next to nil – so your best bet is trying to analyse their attack patterns and get out in front with a trap.
As for Periphery Lords and House Lords – yes they too will be instituting a plans to establish ‘hidden’ fortresses / logistics command locations / military industrial manufacturing facilities to circumvent the 2650 edict.
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The fact that any world that did not have a breathable atmosphere would have had such equipment installed
Terraforming - Only if it is strategically important – otherwise it is not cost effective.
The number of and scope of combat engineering units must be staggering if all of these facilities, that are suggested being established, are being established.
Also since when did the SLDF have pharmaceutical division specializing in bottony etc in order to find remarkable plants etc ?
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You seem to fail to understand human thought patterns.
No, I do not think so – the appropriate response for a 3050 Samurai is vengeance, due to Turtle Bay and the fact Hohiro Kurita’s involvement – lest the Lord Theodore and his Grandfather Takashi will suffer irredeemable loss of face.
The act of deciding to use a nuclear weapon can only be taken from the point of view of the Kurita DCMS Samurai psychology. The clans have used a WMD upon a civilian city who assisted in Hohiros’ escape as a means of vengeance against them for disobeying them – where the people in their act of assisting Hohiro displayed their duty to the Dragon!
This act of loyalty and deaths to the Dragon MUST be honoured!
There is but one response – the destruction of the ship that brought them low.
So please tell me what weapon system other than a nuke does the DCMS have to take out a warship?
I have stated many books and even videos that will support this assertion.
So, if there is fault, please provide evidence as to why.
There is no way of getting around this, even the House Honour, would demand the DCMS attack and destroy the Sabre Cat.
This is the only logic that exists here!
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ComStar’s secret warship production
Yes ComStar did absolutely nothing to assist the Great Houses during the initial years due to Myndo Waterly’s single minded ambition to ensure Comstar remained ascendant above all others.
However Anastasius Focht is in the wings.
Also you do realize the size of the IS and as such the number os ships involved?
On the fist day one civilian ship is deliberately targeted - 1st succession war nuclear war … Phelan should have made this obvious.
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Once the nukes start, there is no turning back. The clans will wipe out all access to interstellar travel
They can attempt this as in all reality every house and ComStar has multiple hidden ship building facilities – and once more the game shifts from Mechs to Navy!
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Gunji-no-Kanrei (Deputy of Military Affairs)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Draconis_Combine_Mustered_Soldiery#Gunji-no-Kanrei
“As kanrei, Theodore made a number of reforms, including offering less rigid interpretations of bushido, which angered many old guard officers; his successes during conflicts including the War of 3039 and Clan Invasion helped cement his role and gave his reforms more weight.”
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The Coordinator of the DC was showing that the clans had him beat.
Please actually do some research first! If this was the case then why fight on? – Why even defend Luthien from the Jaguars and Cats?
Sorry but this is not an accurate statement in my opinion.
The old dog fought to his very last – even when Theodore took his head.
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And can anyone explain why only one Clan was targeted
The new SLDF’s initial mission is simple – The restoration of ALL IS WORLDS to their original Great Houses.
The idea that you would only choose one demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the situation – let me repeat this again – WW2 you decide to liberate Italy only you then decide not to continue the war and you let Germany have France, Poland etc …
This is what TPTB are suggesting here – and it is about time everyone recognised how completely ludicrous this statement is ! The canon story (at this point) has reached an all-time low !
In this war there is but one solution the removal of ALL of the Clans from the IS that have not switched sides.
If you want them to remain then they can establish realms in the Deep Periphery – but the new SLDF does not quit ever (no matter how many hundreds of years this takes) until every belligerent Clan force is expelled from the IS!
There is absolutely no way you can live in peace next to Mongol.
If the new SLDF is going it, to attack the Clans, … they have to deliver a blow that will make it impossible for the Clans military to recover. This is the true aim of Bulldog and Serpent - and this can only be initiated in year 14 of the truce following a massive rearmament process of new IS Omnis – with clan equivalent weapon systems.
What this also means is that the WOB and all of their forces are now a part of the new SLDF.
I would also like to point out that if you want the WOB to be evil this is very easy – once you reach the Clan home worlds let them be the SLDF Einsatzgruppen – tasked with the genocide of every clan’s genetic warrior repository.
So can anyone explain why only one Clan was targeted – as the logic makes absolutely no sense – AGAIN!
Why would you want to comprehend a story line that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever?
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The repository was their legacy. As stated, it was the most important thing at the time to preserve.
From the point of view of the regimes in 984, Brazil, Fahrenheit 451 – dystopian.
Missing the point … they are going along to get along because they are scared and intimidated by what he may order and who may follow that order.
The repositories and Nicky are again apples and oranges.
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Why wouldn't you have your HQ protected as best you could?
Because you were expected to demonstrate your martial prowess at all times – and this can only be done in battle and not cowering in an armoured underground box like a surrat.
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it would have been a smart idea to have any such map changed so no one knew where habitable worlds were.
Problem is how many copies have already been sent out for distribution – thus how many can be used to find them in the future when they actively search for you and they notice discrepancies in the map and the actual?
Thus they know there is something here that is being hidden from them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/25/21 11:35 AM
45.51.181.83
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Is terraforming ever cost efficient? Even a 'light' terraforming operation is not cheap. And most worlds were not terraformed because of military importance. They were decided for resources and living space for people. As you stated once before. There is no real battle lines in space. You can bypass systems, so choke points don't really exist.
How many times has the military been the one to start major operations to find the cure for a virus? And we don't know how many times it was military operations that gave break thrus for normal research into things as they don't announce it. Given the fact that this game deals with landing on other worlds, civilian doctors are not likely to be with units, means someone has to deal with things that weren't know before. This also include going to worlds that are already inhabited.
Civilian experts come in after the military does the initial work, and they hit a snag.
Please actually do some research first! If this was the case then why fight on? – Why even defend Luthien from the Jaguars and Cats?
I have read the storyline, and didn't add in what ever little bits came to mind with this. The why defend question is really mind blowing. Why do you defend anytime? Fight and die on your feet or live on your knees. The clans had Takashi defeated, and Takashi realized when the clans hit Luthien. He stated straight out he would have lost it all if not for Theodore's plan, and the mercs sent by the FC. Your own instance of having the DC use everything it had to hit the Saber Cat shows this. They would have to do that for ALL the worlds lost to the clans. Had they followed that, then the DCMS would have been destroyed before the clans even hit Luthien. But this is something you refuse to acknowledge. The DC is made up of more then just Japanese descendants. It adopted the Japanese philosophy for the most part.
The restoration of ALL IS WORLDS to their original Great Houses.
That would mean the FRR would return to the DC.
The fact that they only had the forces to hit one clan, along with the fact that if they hit any others would change the focus from the Jaguars being challenged to all the clans being challenged is why they hit only one clan. Not comprehending this simple fact? Thanks to Katherine, the forces of the SL couldn't do that again with other clans. They had to deal with the politics she was using to destroy Victor, which caused the SL to abandon chasing the other clans out.
When did the SL never quit come up? They were not going to throw away lives just because someone demands it. Those in the CC would demand the FC return every world taken since the original, as well as all the other houses. When would they quit on that?
So you want to know why they didn't hit the rest? Blame Katherine.
Learn the time line. Again you say the clans would challenge for the rights to what is in the repositories, yet it was before the honor of doing so was established beyond a doubt. The fact that two clans conspired to use a nuke against a third is more then enough proof that they were not yet trustworthy of such responsibility. There is no second chance to gain access to some, as the people were dead. The mixture of DNA meant the primary DNA was not the original. Nicolas would insist the repositories were strong. His own genes would be put in them, and his ego would make sure nothing happened to them.
As the events that the Wolverines dealt with were very possible to happen to others, securing a safe place was of great importance. This is not 100 years later. It was after the clans hit the civil war forces. No more then even 5 years to start this.
How many updates for maps come out? Simple things like a newly found black hole could change a system from being safe to jump to, and become a hazard to all. Until you actually go, you do not know for certain that the jump point is the standard distance from the star. Some factors will change this as you do need some gravity to pull you from a jump, as described in the jump process. That may well be in a major asteroid field. Yes, the jump is supposed to push things out of the way, but that does not stop moving items from smashing into you after the jump is complete. This is very true if multiple ships jump.
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Karagin
08/25/21 12:39 PM
70.118.172.64
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Terraforming takes time, it's not an overnight process and to think otherwise really shows that you have been paying attention to the game's history. Also not every world will even take to terraforming. Some planets will fight back at the lowest levels of their ecosystem.
Look how quickly both Mars and Venus reverted (that is IF you believe the ComStar reports), that should be a clue as to how a world will do it's best to go back to it's original state.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/25/21 07:28 PM
71.47.151.234
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Terraforming takes time, it's not an overnight process and to think otherwise really shows that you have been paying attention to the game's history.
Absolutely. BattleTech's Projects Lowell and Aphrodite both took over 100 years to nominally make Mars and Venus (respectively) habitable, but Mars and Venus both required centuries of polishing to make them "nice" worlds. Mars received touch-ups in the 31st Century to win the political backing of locals, while Venus's terraforming failed in the same period because of 250 years of neglect by ComStar.
The upcoming Touring the Stars: Kerensky's Vision will look at an "easy" terraforming target planet (estimated 75 years to completion) that ended up requiring centuries and still isn't really complete as of the 32nd Century.
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Look how quickly both Mars and Venus reverted
Mars didn't revert. It actually got a bit nicer in the 3050s and 3060s thanks to some terraforming touchups that raised its atmospheric pressure a bit and dumped more water onto it.
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(that is IF you believe the ComStar reports)
No belief needed. As Mars' and Venus' writer, I'll swear on a stack of House Handbooks that Venus has turned into a super-greenhouse hell by 3076 while Mars remains a frosty but habitable desert.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
08/25/21 07:32 PM
1.158.137.81
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Most worlds were terraformed due to economic reasons – what is under ground will eventually pay for the exorbitant cost ie you are making it easier to mine!
So now virologist team is part of the game?
The clans had Takashi defeated - Not by a long shot – TPTB never looked at a military map as to the location of every DCMS force at this stage – if they did anyone would have realised there were still military options available to Takashi. Sorry but this is once again a story arc with many black holes in it. If at this stage the DCMS required assistance this bad then the DC, RR and the FC should have been discussing a military and logistics alliance at this stage – ie WW2 England, USA and Russia. Again, we have a story trying to invoke emotion rather than a story based on cold military logic and diplomatic necessity.
Again – if some-one had just done some research and thought about this it could have been a little more believable!
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Your own instance of having the DC use everything it had to hit the Saber Cat shows this.
Since when is one jump-ship two dropships, eighty fighters and who knows how many nukes everything the DCMS has to kill the Sabre Cat?
If WW1 – WW2 – Korean – Vietnam – and the modern wars would have been studied a little more in depth many of the stories in the game would be far more believable. Also, if someone had just created a map with pins in it indicating the location of all the forces real time (as I have for many of the wars) then you realize there are problems with the writing of the game’s wars.
Have a look at my posts re the CC war I posted recently – the 4th succession war should not have been constructed based on the number of worlds invaded and controlled – the 4th should be regarding those strategically military industrial worlds that enable their military to function – take these few worlds and the CC ceases to exist militarily!
Sorry but again the Clan Invasion Arc was not very well executed or written!
Also the DC has attempted to enforce the Japanese culture upon everyone – also all decisions at the highest level are based upon this view!
That would mean the FRR would return to the FRR.
The fact that they had 15 years to construct the forces to hit every clan is the issue not that they decided to waste how many years go early and totally stuff everything up in the long run!
Again, a very badly written story!
As for Katherine Vs Victor – in all reality if she wanted the throne Victor would be long dead as the assassin would have been sent after him first – or one of his lance mates / Mech technicians would have been paid off and sabotaged his Mech!
Though in all reality Katherine is by far the more suited to govern the civilian side the FC whist Victor should have been placed in command of the Military.
When did the SL never quit come up? Necessity – will the Clans ever quit? So until the Clan quit the IS cannot quit!
Guess who has attrition on their side?
As for the CC they should have been subjugated by the FC either 4th Succession War or 3039 - so they really do not get a voice in the discussion except for the St Ives enclave.
As for the FWL and the WOB – both will need to assist long term – the FWL need the FC and the DC to remain strong so they can absorb all the damage whist the FWL becomes economically strong by supplying all the arms – as well as keeping the clans away from FWL space.
Also it was not Katherine who decided to attack only one clan – go back and re-read – the decision was made in the military discussion group at that time ie by Victor!
Again this totally does not recognise a total war footing by a state as per WW2 which should have been instituted and does not recognise many of the issues that should have been occurring at this time.
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Nicolas would insist the repositories were strong.
Change strong to safe. The building would be placed in such a location that warfare would not be permitted any-where near the site by law. Remember the clans are only allowed to fight within predesignated areas – circle of equals – they set the prize for the battle at the beginning ie the DNA of a specific blood line so after the battle if it is necessary they can be taken out in the strictest of security and safety for their contents and handed over… no breakages whatsoever, all very civilized.
It is only after the wolverine incident would further security be considered!
Maps
As the game has never actually discussed stellar cartography and the dissemination of information in detail any argument will devolve quickly into personal opinion. That said, each House would have their own department - they would also have treaties during the SL era to disseminate as quickly as possible and stellar navigational hazards locations as quickly as possible as this would make the most sense for an era that involves massive black sea fleets.
Terraforming
Yes I agree – there are issues that need to be worked out.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/25/21 09:02 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
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(that is IF you believe the ComStar reports)
No belief needed. As Mars' and Venus' writer, I'll swear on a stack of House Handbooks that Venus has turned into a super-greenhouse hell by 3076 while Mars remains a frosty but habitable desert.
Looks around for WoB Wraiths and Taus and ROM Agent...are you sure you weren't followed?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/25/21 09:04 PM
70.118.172.64
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All jokes aside, Terraforming isn't easy or cheap and as I said not all worlds will take it. I am surprised we don't have hellhole worlds where the terraforming and the local flora and fauna went haywire and gave us a living nightmare.
You know, something the WoB MD would feel right at home in.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/25/21 10:08 PM
45.51.181.83
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How can you say that you had live updated maps the entire time you played, and yet have no real clue on how many forces they had, nor the amount of jumpships to move them with? Then add in the time it takes to move those units onto dropships, as their forces are not permanently on dropships, then move to the jump points and head out. That is IF intel is accurate to the very second, which it never was. And with all this, your past responses have suggested you don't bother to leave anything for defense of such worlds, which would lead to counter invasions once the enemy found you had moved those forces. The entire thing is slanted towards an unsustainable outcome. This would be coupled by the insistence that everything you needed was at your fingertips the entire time.
The fact that the RCT teams for the FS/FC tended to say 1 mech regiment, 3 armor and 5 infantry does NOT mean they were fully equipped. Quite the contrary.
As you are saying canon did not have a clue, the alt does not apply. Alt is your numbers, not those that wrote the story line. This has been a theme throughout your discussions of canon. Saying the alt does this, and so should canon because they don't know their own numbers.
As a side note, what mercs were used to figure all this out? You have absolutely NO idea of how many mercs there are and where they were at. So your figures are completely off. This is not even including local lords units and corporations. So no. The statement of the pin board is misleading at best.
Your statement: They do not, however, have access to farming / agriculture / viticulture / horticulture / aquaculture etc
This question seems to include virologist as well as others, as they are part of dealing with growing food, and making sure it was fit for human consumptiong. So this: So now virologist team is part of the game? is your response. Why ask when you had questioned where they were?
Have a look at my posts re the CC war I posted recently – the 4th succession war should not have been constructed based on the number of worlds invaded and controlled – the 4th should be regarding those strategically military industrial worlds that enable their military to function
This shows you don't have the real figures on what the canon storyline had, nor where or what they were watching out for. Even how they would move those forces to even begin to take them, as they were not all bunched up in systems that were side by side is missing. YOUR NUMBERS do not matter when talking canon outcomes.
When did the SL never quit come up?
Learn the story line. The SL quit hitting the clans because of things that Katherine was doing. The fact that she was dealing with Vlad and making a mess of the FC is why they quit hitting the clans. She destroyed the ability to challenge each clan for their right to invade. Or did that get deleted from the canon storyline and I didn't know about it?
Remember the clans are only allowed to fight within predesignated areas
The clans were not supposed to resort to nuclear devices for warfare. How did that turn out? They were not supposed to lie about things like who did what, such as have a nuke on a fighter that was shot down. How did that turn out? Oh yeah. The clans were just formed, and everyone was supposed to believe no one would violate the rules. Given they just came off the civil war fight, I don't think anyone believed everyone would follow those rules just yet.
Also it was not Katherine who decided to attack only one clan – go back and re-read – the decision was made in the military discussion group at that time ie by Victor!
The decision was made by ALL the houses thru politics. The FWL and CC would not support freeing FC worlds, so in order to end the invasion they went with the worst of the clans. They happened to be in DC space. If the Bears were the biggest threat, then they would have been hit first. The push to remove all the clans fell apart when they got back to the IS and Katherine was screwing everything up. ALL knew it. Had she not bothered to usurp the throne, it is very likely the LC and FRR would have had liberation campaigns started. But again, this means admitting the truth.
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Requiem
08/26/21 08:42 AM
1.158.137.81
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Maps, units, and locations are available as supplied in House Tomes.
Jump-ships approximated via 4ths Succession war Tomes.
Time it takes to move – can be calculated vis Sarna information on each world.
Defence of each world – as stated many times about responding to the Clan invasion.
Timeline / requirement for the establishment of new SLDF (far earlier than in canon)
Counter invasion by whom? And how is this unsustainable?
And no everything is not at my fingertips - multiple calculations can approximate a reasonable timeline based on all relevant available data.
How is a RCT not fully equipped? As they are supposed to respond to planetary invasions as well as the possibility of war at any time – so where is each units’ readiness reports located on a yearly basis as well as a report indicating their logistical requirements?
Sorry, but I said the canon story was implausible given available parameters supplied.
The canon story stars as per information supplied – you can then track what is occurring as per information supplied by canon.
Mercs can also be tracked by canon information supplied – as these were also included in the Clan Invasion Tomes.
Question -Local Lord’s Units are usually not that large or are incorporated into reserve / guards unite per world – also why would you dispatch reserve units against the Clans? Also Corporations how many have a permanent Mech unit? And how many hire Mercs? So why would you send small units against the Clans?
For example - 5th Sword of Light – 3050 Dieron …. Could have been moved …
What we are tracking on the pin board is the larger Regular units as well as the Larger Mercenary forces based upon all available data - so yes you can, with a little effort, approximate a reasonable timeline. Otherwise then every game designed by everyone (except those sanctioned by TPTB) is now questionable and by extension no longer worth considering.
Definition as per google - Virologists are medical doctors that oversee the diagnosis, management and prevention of infection. They're also scientists, who may drive research on various aspects of viruses. A virologist may be both a scientist and a physician.
Question how does an analysis of the assignment of CC target worlds during the 4th Succession War - as to the identification of primary targets based on military industrial capabilities – rather than geographical targets have anything to do with the Clan Invasion?
The IS stopped attacking the Clans due to Victors and the entire new SLDF short-sightedness - they returned from Huntress declared Victory on Luthien and promptly disbanded – They had just recaptured from the Jaguars the DC worlds but didn’t care at all for those in the LA (Where Victor grew up – thus indicating how great a leader Victor is) – so Victor just quit the SLDF. Thus this has absolutely nothing to do with Katherine and everything to do with Victor having ‘no desire for war’ and having a desire to remain with Omika in her garden.
So, rather than actually doing their jobs as the leaders of the Inner Sphere they decided to cede all remaining worlds taken by the remaining Clans to them rather than actually attempting to get them back.
The Clan Khans agreed to a set of principles – every clan was obeying them there was absolutely no sign of mendacity until Nicky decided to crack the whip – thus there was absolutely no reason to stick the repository in a bunker.
The decision was made by ALL the houses thru politics.
And what a great (sarcasm) decision that was – was any thought even given to spend time to build a larger military? No – the decision was made on the premise of what was available at the time!
Also how is ending the invasion when the decision is made to only remove one of the Clans that is within the IS? This does NOT end anything – To END the Clan threat is to remove ALL of the Clans within the IS that have not switched sides.
Also, again Katherine did not screw everything up as she was not in the military session – whereas Victor was – when it became apparent that she did not have the votes for the Jade Falcons she switched her vote for Jag’s thus she can be seen as being a reasonable ruler by acting in the best interest of the IS and not her own petty interests …
So again, she comes out of this situation by looking like a true leader whereas Victor comes out of this as the man who said ‘who cares about FC and FRR worlds captured by the Clans, lets just use the new SLDF to assist the DC only!’ through his actions.
Why is the LC trying to liberate itself against their ruler that they love? And why would the FWL want to remove Katherine when it is Victor he has an issue with due to the death of ‘his’ son and the plant of a double? Wouldn’t it be more plausible to suggest the FWL would want to remove Victor and help Katherine to the complete throne of the FC?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/26/21 12:21 PM
45.51.181.83
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You don't understand that damage and losses of units such as mechs don't get magically replaced the moment they are in that condition? It is extremely easy to lose things like jeeps. Replacements are normally lighter units. Repairs take time. Going by game rules, you can do a partial repair, like internal structure, yet that means you lose 1-4 points of armor permanently on that unit. For light mechs, that may well mean all armor off a limb. Unlike the rosy picture you like to portrait, you probably do not have an arm in stock for that unit, and it does not magically replace the one on the mech.
Mech units are lucky to have a full tech contingent, and those normally mean normal maintenance with only a little extra to do major repairs.
There are also forces that are part of the unit that aren't available at the time to move out.
There is always the issue of not having the ships to move them including Jumpships. Conscription is not something the governments like to do. Even break downs in the ships prevents full deployment.
You still don't believe pirates are a threat? They don't care about the clans, except that they distract the militaries, given them a chance to take even more things without worry about getting hit. And this doesn't touch the periphery deciding to take a few things. No matter what you think, they will do such things.
Track things as information is supplied by canon. Yet we all know canon does not supply all the information that you need. Canon says unit x is on planet y, but that is only where the HQ for the large unit is. The unit itself is spread out over a few locations, including other systems. Canon does NOT supply you with a list of other units like the smaller mercs or pirates and such. Canon does not supply you with the ships that are available in a region or even system. It does not tell you that 2 battalions are waiting for repairs or replacements at they just went thru a nasty combat. It takes a while for forces on a single world to get back to HQ in order to even attempt to load up on dropships, as they are not going to be picked up by those very dropships unless the unit is that special.
You do know some of the RCTs are personal units of march lords? Or did you not read that?
So why would you send small units against the Clans?
You do understand that small units are integrated into larger ones, or combined to make a larger one for combat purposes? The whole send company x on the left flank and company y on the right flank can be used? Or z company is off hitting the enemies supplies? This is part of combat. Not the neutered concept of having everything in one large group and go like that. We are not talking a few hundred miles, but entire worlds, and sometime even multiple worlds.
But I think I see why you hate the clans warships. Your huge group can't do much but die in an orbital bombardment against them.
I haven't heard of other games trying to change the entire storyline beyond what can be fixed. They don't become lords of the realms. They may make a small duchy with a few worlds, but they do not stop the clans with a single infantryman with an SRM launcher. They don't change the overall events of the game.
Definition as per google - Virologists are medical doctors that oversee the diagnosis, management and prevention of infection. They're also scientists, who may drive research on various aspects of viruses. A virologist may be both a scientist and a physician.
And what does this have to do with you asking where they were, then suggesting surprise when they were said to be in the game?
The concept of war is not only trying to take targets to make weapons of war, but to secure locations around it to continue to keep ownership of said areas. Hanse knew there was only so much he could take in the first place and wanted to make sure he did not lose it to a counter assault or the FWL. As it was, the occupation troops were not as good as he wanted them to be. He wanted Max broken, but needed the CC to keep distracting the FWL. It was to punish Max, but ended up looking like a land grab to the only people that mattered to the FS. If he had just taking the Tikonov area, and stopped, then it wouldn't have looked so bad. That was just shoring up the contact point with their ally. But it seems any strategy that involves more then pure greed of taking factories is beyond understanding. It is possible to take worlds without a fight. Something Sun Tzu would say is better then destroying it in a fight. Basically a large siege by taking things around it.
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ghostrider
08/26/21 02:50 PM
45.51.181.83
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Yeah. It must have been Victor's fault that no one else was put in charge to lead another foray into the clans. It was Victors fault Katherine decided the usurp the throne and form an agreement with Vlad. It was Victors fault that several important people were assassinated during the flight out to the clan home worlds. It was Victors fault that the others decided that hitting the clans again would be a bad idea, as they needed their forces back in their territories. In fact, it was Victors fault for the entire clan invasion because he was born first. Might even by why the original SL dissolved.
Now the short sighted bs.
The troops that went with Taskforce Serpent were traveling and fighting for over a year. They were tired. To suggest they just jump back into it would have been an utter failure. I know you would love that, as you would say it was Victors fault for doing so. Trying to swap out units wouldn't have worked well because the WHOLE reason to hit the Jaguars was to stop the invasion. If not for other issues, the IS would have started rolling back the clans without trying to sell the need to return to clan space, which would not have been possible.
The Clan Khans agreed to a set of principles – every clan was obeying them there was absolutely no sign of mendacity until Nicky decided to crack the whip – thus there was absolutely no reason to stick the repository in a bunker.
Inaccurate at best. The leaders agreed to it, yet the duo was using a nuke to attack another clans. Really sticking with the agreement. The fact Kerensky was after the Wolverines was their being nice to the other castes. So that was following the agreement. Conspiring to kill a clan thru lies is following the rules.
And this does not even touch what the soldiers would do. It has been done in the past that those UNDER the top leaders did things on their own accord. Nothing new there. So the ability to kill a clan by wiping out their replacement pool would be too good to pass up. And this was BEFORE Kerensky decided to pick a clan to join with. But we know how history doesn't repeat itself, and that the only time bad things like this happen is when a specific writer wants it to.
To END the Clan threat is to remove ALL of the Clans within the IS that have not switched sides.
Funny. This is the very thought of what caused the destruction of the succession wars. The clans only switched sides once the IS got the 2nd SL together. And what happened with the 2nd SL? Each first lord used it to further their nations goals while hampering the rest. But to commit genocide as you are saying they would have to, would show the IS was doing the same thing Amaris was. Oh yeah. Guess that isn't according to plan.
And while Victor was away, she made sure she was in charge of the LC armed forces, so there was no chance to hit another. She would have removed the one person most of the IS was at least respectful of his skills, to replace him with who? Someone that couldn't do the job, or was a toady to Katherine? Nondi was not up to the task, and her handling of the initial invasion showed that. Oh yeah. She was the one guiding the LC/FC response for the invasion. Hmmm. Funny how that is overlooked.
And the very accords Katherine used to pull the LC out of the FC was the same one that allowed Nondi to keep Victor out. So that isn't an excuse.
And why would the FWL want to remove Katherine when it is Victor he has an issue with due to the death of ‘his’ son and the plant of a double? Wouldn’t it be more plausible to suggest the FWL would want to remove Victor and help Katherine to the complete throne of the FC?
Victor was seen as the boogie man which would allow Marik to keep the FWL focused on the FC, and not each other. Katherine was more dangerous as she was a media manipulator. Victor did not come up with the double idea, but allowed it to continue. Thomas realized this even though in pain at the time. So using that pain, he could keep things going the way he needed it to. Helping Katherine would be entirely against his main goals, which would be splinter the most powerful nation in the IS. Otherwise, he would have to contend with her crap. Victor was a bit predictable with his military background. He was more honest then Katherine ever was. Otherwise, he would not have been allowed to command the forces given to Taskforce Serpent to begin with.
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Requiem
08/26/21 03:31 PM
1.158.137.81
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This damage and losses, has it been quantified anywhere as to the amount initially received per unit or even per Mech or vehicle?
Is it time-period specific?
Does it take into consideration converting any economy – Military Industrial Complex - shifting from a normal economy to that of a total war out-put as per WW1 and 2?
Do we have an inventory per unit as to their list of spare parts for both the Inner Sphere and the Clans or is it assumed based upon the tonnage available within Dropships and we do not need to factor into the equation the storage of food and water for a long voyage?
Do we know how many tones of equipment are held within each base for all Inner Sphere Garrison Forces – including all consumables?
Is it for the Inner Sphere Units Only, and if so is there any exemptions, or is it applicable to the Clans as well?
Does it take into considering the idea of the length of a logistical chain when it comes to resupply - is there even such a thing a resupply schedule within the game whatsoever for both the Inner Sphere or the Clans?
Also, if you introduce a logistical hunting group within the game has this been quantified as to the amount of impact this will have upon the game for both the Inner Sphere and the Clans?
Also is there a schedule for replacement personnel – for both the Inner Sphere and the Clans?
Do you even have the number of Jump-ships and Drop-ships available and is there a break-down timetable that I can factor in so as to restrict logistics and replacement personnel – for both the Inner Sphere and the Clans?
Do you have all Military Industrial Facilities output numbers so that it can then be sent to a logistical hub for distribution to each individual unit as per their request for spares?
Are we using a just in time logistical schedule or some other system?
Can any of this information be provided prior to or during the Clan Invasion, on a monthly basis, or do I just wing it for the entire clan invasion?
Also is there a massive spreadsheet to which all of this information can be supplied or am I supposed to create this myself – also does it provide options to allow for real time changes due to changes I wish to introduce into the game?
Also do you have exact numbers as to all the pirates, and their TO&Es, where they are located and who engages them first Clan or Inner Sphere? Also is there a special table for pirates for their initial damage per Mech or vehicle also do you have their logistics numbers per pirate band on hand? As we know that Phelan was Pirate Hunting with the Kell Hounds when he was taken so how many others were out there?
Or is it at the discretion of each gaming group to make these decisions as there is absolutely nothing written down?
And you do realise that if a House Lord orders his March Lords to use their units under their command they have no choice but to obey, or do we now facto in the issue of March Lords defying their Liege Lords as I must have missed that in the game? Can you tell me the names of any March Lord who refused and when and the units they refused to send to the front? Or did you not read that?
Can you also supply me with a list of all small units that were integrated with larger units that were not included within any of the Clan Invasion Tomes?
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But I think I see why you hate the clan’s warships. Your huge group can't do much but die in an orbital bombardment against them.
So, does this mean that I can now use multiple nuclear strikes as the Clans are now using multiple orbital bombardments – does this mean that the war has now shifted to a 1st Succession war Scenario - can I now have revised figures as to all the information requested above?
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I haven't heard of other games trying to change the entire storyline beyond what can be fixed.
Except for games like D&D that just wing it based upon the DMs whim and the players responses to what they want to do.
It is not as if when you amass a vast amount of experience points and you get into the high levels that you cant affect the region in a massive way.
It is not as if you can become the regional Lord and direct all the forces under their command into massive wars when you become high enough.
It is not as if a single aerospace pilot can kamikaze their fighter into the bridge of a warship and kill the il-khan. They don’t change the overall events of the game or do they?
Virologist – 08/25/21 Post - How many times has the military been the one to start major operations to find the cure for a virus?
The concept of war – also includes Logistics – “the means of strategy and tactics, determines what is practically possible in war. Its nature is expressed in operational choices and decisions, and is fundamental to military preparedness. Therefore, understanding its nature is vital to commanders and institutional leaders.”
Why else was the use of bombers so prevalent during WW2 – what was the main reason for the failure of the Rommel in North Africa, operation Market Garden, Battle of the Bulge – why did every side have mass submarine fleets, what were they trying to achieve?
Taking and holding mass areas of land – why?
What if you take and hold the majority of a realms major Military Industrial Complexes – what effect does this have on their military – and what immediate response id required by the enemy in such a situation?
As shown it is possible for Hanse to invade the majority of the CC’s major Military industrial facilities on day 1 of the war. How long after this until the majority of the CC military units are destroyed – thus the war ends sooner – fewer civilian losses for Hanse to pay in rebuilding efforts post war.
Remember this is a three-dimensional game not two the concept of taking every world is an obsolete concept - it really is not necessary for this war as Hanse could have used this Blitzkrieg strategy just as the Germans did in WW2 all the way to Paris.
And as stated within this strategy – he could have used the MoC, as well as the FWL forces to carve up the CC and keep other CC units on the other side of the realm busy – as the ultimate goal is the destruction of the CC, wanting Max broken was just icing on the top.
Fist the Military Industrial capabilities – then the remaining CC regular forces – then the mop up to secure the land.
This could have been achieved in record time – even ComStar would be left in the dust as to trying to fake an incident on a remote HPG if all the FS / LC Regular forces are on major industrial worlds - who also have very large media contingents.
IT IS ACHIEVABLE – the fall of the CC by the end of the 4th Succession War. Thus, by the 3039 War the FC has way more units than that of Canon to hit the DC with – so how many ghost units is ComStar going to give the DC now for the FRR? Thus, everyone now knows that ComStar has how large an Army at their disposal – and can anyone say why an organisation that is supposed to be dedicated to peace has access to such vehicles and in such quantities and where have they been hiding them all this time?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/26/21 09:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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Get the total warfare economy out of your head. The IS did that for so long, they basically destroyed the economy for so long, that in the 3025 era, they were just barely starting to come back. This is why there were shortages of things like jumpships and the IS only made about 3000 mechs a year, and most of those were replacements for units lost during the year from raids and invasions. Again, your figures in canon do not matter.
Shifting to total war is what nearly destroyed the FS during and after the 4th war. If not for the LC, the FS would have been in far greater problems then it was. A fact you still choose to ignore.
Maybe if you actually played a full strategic game of some warfare, you would understand that raids main function it to wipe out stockpiles when found. So one month, you are riding high on having what you need, to being in the hole as your depots are gone and you used a lot of it shooting at the enemy. The same thing happened to Germany in WWII. They could not keep supplies in the front lines. Once they were falling back the concept of destroying all the bridges kept the Allies back until they could get something going. And with this, isn't the job of the Wolfpack to remove supplies from reaching Europe? Then you have issues with the better units basically demanding the lesser units supplies so the better ones could be closer to full strength. And when you try to play the game, do it without god mode on.
All the items you listed shows why there is no way to track everything on a pin board as you have no clue on what is where. The game is NOT going to list everything everyday. We know not everything was great with the game. Units were constantly short of things, as militias being a big one to not have the items.
How badly hurt was the Northwind Highlanders during their assault on the Smoke Jaguars during the attack towards the home worlds? How many units were destroyed during the invasion? They didn't list the local militias nor how much was lost. It wasn't stated they lost so many dropships and jumpships during the invasion. How about the 3039 war? Not every unit was listed as what damage they had. The fight was not just focused on the small section of the border. They had to deal with keeping forces pinned, which normally meant sending in smaller forces just to make noise. But your everything in one large unit doesn't deal with it. So the concept suggests there is no REALITY involved here. It is all just saying you won and moving on. Your entire base would be wiped out as soon as you left.
Or is it at the discretion of each gaming group to make these decisions as there is absolutely nothing written down?
This is what you don't comprehend. You say canon is wrong because you don't have the information you need to say it is wrong. You assume your numbers are correct and say to everyone that canon is wrong. Your game is your game. Telling everyone else their game is wrong because it follows canon is the issue yet again. This is just another way of saying canon is wrong because your alt says it is. Canon has many issues, but it is the games story line. Use canon facts to say canon is wrong, not made up figures that no one knows anything about. The conclusions posted are inaccurate as it is base on false facts. There is no way you can demand things be a certain way, as you don't know everything.
Even if the developers just said this is the way it is, canon is their storyline. Your numbers don't mean anything to the canon storyline.
The 8th FedCom RCT resists direct orders from Field Marshal George Hasek to transfer from Kathil to Lee.
Yeah. I guess someone didn't read the actual story line.
You want to change the story line to fit what you want, yet suggest that in doing so, you don't destroy the integrity of the future story line. D&D does not have everyone expecting to step into another groups campaign and have everything the same. It is also noteworthy that people are not saying the canon story line is wrong because their campaign says so.
So now you want to use plot armor to suggest the game can be changed? Getting desperate? The story line did NOT change due to this fact as the developers PLANNED this chain of events. Did you suggest that Luke Skywalker blowing up the Deathstar was a fluke? That was the story line. Saying Leah did would be changing the storyline.
The same can be said for Kai or Phelan. They were written to do what they did. It was not some random chance. To remove them would be to destroy the story line with no chance to return. Continuity is gone.
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ghostrider
08/26/21 09:33 PM
45.51.181.83
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Why else was the use of bombers so prevalent during WW2 – what was the main reason for the failure of the Rommel in North Africa, operation Market Garden, Battle of the Bulge – why did every side have mass submarine fleets, what were they trying to achieve?
This is why the 4th war was concerned about taking other worlds besides the mech producers. To deny the enemy use of anything that comes from those worlds including places to strike from trying to hit your supplies and flanks. Something that seems lacking in your analysis of military goals. What good is having those facilities when the enemy has destroyed your lands? Your own people will rise up against you for leaving them high and dry.
That's right. I forgot that your responses show you think a free society is a dictatorship that obeys their leaders every wish. They do as they are told or get punished. So if they die because you pulled units protecting them in order to invade even a manufacturing world, then it's ok.
How long before the FWL sees this and hits your weak side as you have all your focus on specific worlds? How long before the DC, which if not for Takashi, would have destroyed the FS and LC. They fumbled around because of the coordinators focus on the Dragoons. They would have swept in, and removed the entire Terran connection region and prevented the FC union. It isn't like the DC and FWL would not sell to the CC. Or even worse, have things like the Sword of Light regiments trouncing the planets in that area. A full scale invasion of the Draconis March would be in order, as the others would know they HAD to remove the FC from those locations. And that is HOPING saboteurs do not wipe them out. Why bother keeping them around if you can't retake them? This is the death struggle after all.
Hmm. Do you think the FC took every world by force in the 4th war? How about any other invasion along the borders? Worlds were captured to use as exchange for worlds the enemy took. And even then, a few worlds would change hands when other worlds around them fell. Actually, that should be systems, as more then a few had multiple worlds in them. Why risk losing great farming lands in assaults when you can just take their defenses from other worlds and fight there?
And your bombardment threat isn't much different then an attacker threatening to burn the entire world if you continue resistance. Which has been done before.
One more thing. What would have happened to history if the scientists working on the Nuclear bomb for Germany was killed? Would you be able to say the world would be the same thing as it is now? This is the very basis on why the future can not exist when you change major factors in the past. The U.S. and Russia would not become the world's superpowers. Other countries would have risen up without nukes. The entire landscape as we know it would not exist.
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Karagin
08/26/21 10:02 PM
70.118.172.64
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He doesn't want nukes, okay cool, but given that the use of fission and fusion power are needed to get humans OFF of Terra and into space means it's going to be hard to get rid of nukes. We keep going in the same circle with him, he won't see that his ALT is not going to work and won't adjust anything when we point out the issue. Might be time to let this go and move on to other topics.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/26/21 11:25 PM
1.158.137.81
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During the 3025 - This is not total war – As for the “Total War” during the 4th Succession War - this
is just the requisitioning of available jump-ships for the war effort. May I suggest research is undertaken as to the meaning of total war as per WW2 and how this would effect each houses output and military numbers (conscription).
Where does 3000 mechs a year come from? – which era, is it 3025? and how is this broken down per House? As shortly after the Clan Invasion there is an explosion on new Mech designs, naval ships etc as well as production sites can this be explained if the IS is such a basket case of a military industrial capabilities.
Shortages of Jump-ships - Read the 4th Succession War books - what I am suggesting is no more than that which occurred here.
So on the first note Logistics don’t matter (Get the total warfare economy out of your head) and then Logistics do matter (you would understand that raids main function it to wipe out stockpiles when found)
Which is it? How do you want to proceed with your game logistics don’t natter or they do matter or they are only included in the game when your units are involved against the enemies units and then post scenario you determine how resupply and rearmament is to occur – for me the only way forward is to think about a simple method that is right for me and mine alone, as no one would ever agree with it.
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All the items you listed shows why there is no way to track everything on a pin board as you have no clue on what is where.
And here I thought I was tracking just the regular units of each military and NOT the logistics as there is absolutely no way to tack or to provide a definitive amount as this aspect of war was never included in the game – so the only way anyone, including TPTB, can use logistics in the game is if the god mode is on. As the ability to manufacture a spreadsheet based upon the IS wide economy has never been quantified by anyone including the TPTB as far as the books are written.
So unless there is some kind of tracking number assigned to every unit that simplifies this – as well as some kind of simplified logistics resupply figure and a technical repair figure the idea of Logistics within the game is pointless. So how do you track battlefield damage as well as replacement personnel numbers and what timeline is involved? No one else has thought this through – all the books you are just supposed to assume that the TPTB are correct, so where is their underlying figures?
So unless at the start of the game every conceivable aspect of the game has been quantified down to the most minute detail and can be tracked on a monthly basis for every unit Inner Sphere and Clan the only thing that can be done is where the writer makes an assumption based upon their projections and belief …
And yes there is reality involved here … the closest that I can get based upon me belief and the limitations of the game due to how it was constructed.
As for the base being wiped out – this is why you have security forces – also this is why every unit in the BattleTech Universe must be a mobile army – they must have the ability to take everything of importance with them if necessary – thus all that is left to guard is empty buildings, that can be rebuilt. Or each military has a combat arm and a non-combat arm in the event of a combat arm being sent to war the non-combat arm is withdrawn to a position of safety. Or each Army recognises that combat will between combat units and they do not involve non combat operations units in a war setting.
Choose.
I am NOT telling anyone anything - what I AM saying is that everyone has the freedom to design their game the way they want it to go – each gaming group is not beholden to me or to the canon story. They can use my suggestions or ignore them as they wish – the game is supposed to be fun and exiting – so make it fun and exiting – if there is something in the game that disturbs you then remove it. If you think up a new dimension to the game that you believe will be fun and exiting then give it a whirl and see what happens.
What I am doing is pointing out the inconsistencies within the canon story that require rethought – in this situation you have to ask yourself - do you believe that the canon story or their characters are acting as per historical canon tomes have portrayed them? Or is what is written accurate and believable or do you have another take on what was written – do you believe its accuracy?
As we all have beliefs and we all have freedom to express our beliefs do we not have the freedom to let others know what we believe and try to express why we believe as we do?
As for the 8th FedCom RCT – this is Civil War Arc – First Princess Katherine Steiner- Davion Vs Victor Steiner-Davion’s supporters … so please, explain how future events (3062-64) once again impact upon past events (3050 onwards) as my time machine is broken and I believe the topic was concerning the Clan Invasion era.
I want to build a story that does not make me cringe at the multitude of implausible scenarios – as demonstrated by many late 1800’s boys own adventure books.
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D&D does not have everyone expecting to step into another groups campaign and have everything the same.
And I am not expecting others to step into my campaign – I am expecting people to use their judgement to determine where they want to be, when they want to be, and with whom they want to be with.
Each individual has the ability to create their campaign – there is nothing wrong in changing canon to fit your beliefs or to move wildly away – individuals must be allowed to have choice.
Continuity is not gone – just because you remove / change a character – the writer, as an individual and having freedom to do so, has the ability to modify and add new characters that can change the dynamics of the story – So what would be the damage to the story if I did change Phelan (male) to Phebe (female)? Is this such a capital sin?
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This is why the 4th war was concerned about taking other worlds besides the mech producers. To deny the enemy use of anything that comes from those worlds including places to strike from trying to hit your supplies and flanks.
Have you actually read about every world within each Great House? – I have and I have the spreadsheets based on geographical location stating the importance of each world – many of them have absolutely no information at all as to their worth.
So why attack a world that has no real economic worth?
Also this is space warfare not land warfare – Naval fleets are used to attack flanks – Naval fleets distribute logistics ….
The Primary Targets are all military Industrial worlds followed by regional capitol and then high population or important mining / agriculture … With the CC and their limited number of armed forces circa 4th Succession War – Take all the Military industrial capability worlds and it is then just a matter of time before the CC falls over – it can be done in 2 to 3 waves depending on the CC responses!
You do realise that that the Fs has enough forces to mount an effective defence and at the same time kill of the CC.
In war there will always be acceptable collateral damage – otherwise no one would ever go to war and the BattleTech game would end as everyone has now joined the peace train and are singing kumbaya ….
As for the FWL don’t they have enough problems with the LC? And as for the DC you do realise that the LC and the FS have enough forces to keep them occupied with the CC are killed off … as per canon !
Also if the corridor is attacked wouldn’t the FS and the LC adapt and just move their forces also into the corridor or even attack the DC from the rear due to depleted numbers now engaged in the corridor?
So now that the FS and the LC are in the DC’s backyard what is the DC to do?
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What would have happened to history if the scientists working on the Nuclear bomb for Germany was killed? Would you be able to say the world would be the same thing as it is now?
Actually, this is very easy to answer, and it is yes – it was not until after the war that the USA discovered that the German scientists were no way near completing a nuclear bomb and it was all USA’s hysteria about being beaten to the bomb that led to the development of the bomb.
This is why the future can exist – the writer can add new players and new scenarios so that they can end up exactly where the writer wants them to end up.
In a world without nukes there would have been a 3rd and maybe even a 4th World War by now if all we were going to use was conventional armaments! Nukes preserve the peace – the consequences of a war on this scale are just too terrifying to comprehend M.A.D.
So its anyone’s guess as whom the superpowers could be.
Question – does the removal of military applications reduce the applications to civilian at the same time or are they separate from one another with independent research and development teams – does the same team that works on the Powerplant also work on the bomb or do we keep these two separate – civil and military? How is research and development organised?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/26/21 11:26 PM)
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ghostrider
08/27/21 03:53 AM
45.51.181.83
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You mean shifting manufacturing towards military purposes at the expense of civilian goods isn't total war production, as the FS did for a few years prior to the 4th war? Maybe you should do some research, or reading the information given without adding in all the little things that aren't there.
3000 units is basically adding up all the mech production in the IS when Objective raids came out. It isn't exact but close enough to show this. And with it, the information said that they barely kept up with the losses.
And distance is forgotten with those jumpships. Conscription is one thing when the jump ship is within a few jumps of where it operates at. Sending it to the other side of the IS creates a far different issue. There is no quick way to get it back into position where it was needed. The fact that the 4th war removed a very large chunk of those ships used for moving necessary things is why the FS was hurting so badly. Now, you are suggesting the same thing only sending them out even further.
Did you bother to read the context provided with the total warfare post? The statement with context.
Get the total warfare economy out of your head. The IS did that for so long, they basically destroyed the economy for so long, that in the 3025 era, they were just barely starting to come back.
for me the only way forward is to think about a simple method that is right for me and mine alone, as no one would ever agree with it.
Stop trying to use the alt numbers to say canon is wrong. This is the simple thing. You are trying to defend your position with numbers that don't matter at all in canon.
Logistics is very important, but in the case of the clans, the supplies you had, were mainly what you had to use. And this is going back to why the IS DIDN'T go total warfare. It wasn't required. The IS did not have the ability to come back from destroying their economy. Something that seems to elude you entirely.
Setting up for another war was probably going on before the clans invaded. So total war production isn't needed.
As you said it yourself. There is no data provided on what ships had what equipment going to what unit. So you did NOT have the numbers the developers had, so saying they should have done this or that is just blowing smoke. You put in what ever you wanted to. This is simple as well. Do the alt, but trying to say canon is wrong because you put in what ever you wanted to, when the developers had completely different ideas on what was going on.
That is correct. TPTB are correct in everything they put up for what happened in their canon story line in their game. Even if they just said it happened that way, they are right about their story. I don't agree with chunks of it, but they are right for their story of their game.
The statements made by yourself say you don't have guards, or security forces. There is a major assumption that you have all the dropship space and jumpships to move everything you have. And by doing so, leave things like your factories that build your munitions and units without thost guards. Oh yeah. You think you can take everything in your base with you that is valuable or important. This shows a lack of actual thinking of everything required to go to war. I do scorched earth with any supplies you might pick up on your assault, while wiping out your ability to produce more.
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Requiem
08/27/21 06:30 AM
1.158.137.81
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Actual research would include …. For WW2 Total War, Rosie the Riveter, The Economies of Total War, Liberty Ship Production, Aircraft Production, Conscription and the list goes on and on ….
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Objective_Raids:_3067
Sorry but my … ‘notoriously error-ridden, Objective Raids sourcebook’ … only has production sites and a listing as to what is manufactured, and it does not have quantities listed … can you please provide a more detailed information regarding this 3,000 units figure.
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The fact that the 4th war removed a very large chunk of those ships used for moving necessary things is why the FS was hurting so badly.
Actually, from a Total War Economy perspective, this would be the reverse – rather than destroying the economy it actually invigorates the economy – there are many papers written on the topic that help in understanding economics during the Total War Era – may I suggest having a look at USA’s economy during WW2 as well as all of the social implications this caused.
Also it appears that you didn’t realize that the FC now has control over all the former CC ships and the FWL are also engaged in moving mem and material to the front lines – so if taking this logic to its conclusion then it is simple to realize that there is still ample shipping to conduct the transport of goods between those home worlds whom each states deems that they require them during this total war period. So no it is not as bad as the 4th Succession War would have you believe.
Also, as we have moved to a total war footing the number of new Liberty Class Jump-Ships and Dropships should be starting to come out of their moorings … have a look at how many were produced WW2 and their time frame …. due to a Total War footing.
How can it not be about numbers –
How many Mechs, tanks, vehicles, fighters, VTOLS, conventional fighters / Bomber, artillery pieces, Infantry etc on the Inner Sphere’s Side
Vs
How many Mechs, Elementals and Fighters for the Clans
Then it is just a question of each side’s loss depletion report and repair and maintenance and reinforcement numbers as the war progresses
Also time and civil engineering need to be considered as well as a multitude of other factors that may impact the war … just as they did in all previous conflicts.
Total warfare not required????
Sorry but I do not believe this … if the game is move beyond a SLDF single assault (that makes about as much sense as a cat flap in a nuclear submarine) against the Jaguars to a multi SLDF assault against ALL the remaining Clans that have not switched sides then there is but one path – A total War Economy throughout the IS – Effectively a Clan Invasion in reverse!
And as stated above and in many economist papers on the subject - A total War Economy does NOT destroy the economy it actually invigorates it!
What numbers the developers had? If they did have numbers don’t you believe that they would have incorporated them into a book – by not doing so then the logical assumption would be that there are no numbers!
Thus, it is at the freedom of the writer - based upon their logical assumptions which are backed up by economist figures and other research papers based upon previous wars – to determine their cause of completely different cause of action going forward.
TPTB are correct in everything they put up for what happened in their canon story line in their game – and no one is allowed to create any works that tamper with this view, all we are allowed to do is go by what canon has written even if we get different outcomes in our games at home?
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And by doing so, leave things like your factories that build your munitions and units without those guards.
It was clearly stated – Bases; So, since when did military industrial complexes become bases?
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Oh yeah. You think you can take everything in your base with you that is valuable or important. This shows a lack of actual thinking of everything required to go to war.
Then can you explain how this was achieved in WW2 for example – how did Patton’s Third Army move if they didn’t have what was required at the time?
As for a scorched earth mentality – we are nor right back at the 1st Succession war Scenario.
Also, no comment on Phebe? Or how there are military products and there are civilian products as to how research and development is utilized?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/27/21 09:12 AM
70.118.172.64
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Hey Ghostrider if you are going to quote him, use the quote tag code please.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/28/21 02:14 AM
45.51.181.83
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I was wrong about the objective raids book having the production numbers in them. Been looking thru some of the books and found a few numbers. The main one is the house books.
House Marik says on page 114 that they estimate 500 mechs a year are produced, and on page 115, it breaks down the types and numbers. It also states on 114 that it is estimated that only 30 assault mechs are produced a year.
What I find odd with this is the listing of the Goliath being made, yet was not in the 3025 TRO. The wiki says that the Goliath was produced by a few companies including Defiance. So there is some questions that pop up.
House Davion says the Corean Enterprises factories pump out over 130 Valkyries per year, with Independence weaponry being able to put out Victor and Marauder mechs at 20 a year, though Atlas mechs are only 5 a year on page 150 of the old book.
I had gone thru those books trying to find out just how many mechs they made quite a few years ago. Not all were stated, and I don't have the Liao book.
The house Kurita book says the FS had the most forces with the DC being second.
The total war concept does not invigorate economies where distance of light years and the lack of supplies moving to planets is a problem. You first lose imports of luxuries, then start having issues with necessary items. The manufacturers have stopped making parts for things you use everyday, so once they break, you are out of luck. Buying a new one isn't happening. People like salesman lose their jobs until they can get in stock of non military things. Emergency spending by the government means funds going for social programs on worlds is cut. Prices shoot up, as only profiteers can find some items. You want it, you pay out the nose for it. So in the case of distances, total warfare production does NOT increase the economy.
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ghostrider
08/28/21 02:42 AM
45.51.181.83
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As I had IE close on me answering some things before the last response, I will try again.
Saying you are NOT telling anyone anything is a false statement. You are demanding a rewrite of the game because it does not fit your numbers or vision.
That is very much telling everyone they have to kneel to your view. The developers have it all wrong because your numbers say so. This fact has been missed in the analysis of the entire time of saying canon is wrong. As the developers did not give you everything, you are missing vital concepts to even begin to demand it is wrong and they should have done this or that. The fact that units are destroyed and damaged was beyond those numbers you were running, as you seem to believe new units just pop up and damage is fixed instantaneously. Read the stories and fluff in the books sometime. Units have been down for years waiting for parts and to be fixed. Simple rules tell the story as well. Partial repairs basically removes how much armor a location can have. 1-4 points in this case. For an assault mech, that isn't that much, but for a wasp or stinger, that means you can lose the entire arm armor. 1 point on a leg is almost as bad.
The games concept of rolling the number or higher is to show just how difficult parts are to come by. Even normal armor or weapons loads can be missing, meaning if you didn't bring enough extras, you deal without. But again, your numbers with everything doesn't work with this. So you say canon is wrong.
Funny. You said show you an example of troops ignoring a march lords orders. I did not see anything that dealt with a specific time. Also, Michael Hasek had constantly defied Hanse before the 4th war. There were a few times he moved units so the CC could hit worlds.
It seems you forget a major thing with fighting. Not a surprise as you believe you can keep everything you have in one location. Just because you have 100 regiments, does not mean they are all on the same world. It does not mean all the units that make up one regiment is on one world. You have to defend as much as you can, otherwise you will lose those locations. You suggest only military manufacturers are worth defending. This is faulty logic. Take Defiance and the stories about it. The workers of the factory do NOT live in the factory but a city near by. You have to defend them in order to keep the skilled workers available for making the units the factory makes. Remove them, and you lose the ability to make anything. No imports or exports. You are dead in the water. And as the books say, Hesperus II does NOT make enough food to feed them all, so you HAVE to import that as well as parts. The Fusion engines are not in adequate supply, which is why Defiance put a fusion engine manufacturing plant on another world. I forget the name.
You can not have everything at one location. Iron, copper and a few other metals are needed to make the components of almost everything needed for war. You will not find mines that you can set a single factory on all of them at once, to avoid having to protect them all.
I know you told me how to do the quote thing, but the one time I tried to use it, I got frustrated with it. I will attempt it again in the future, but no promises.
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Requiem
08/28/21 08:19 AM
1.158.137.81
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Helm Memory Core - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Helm_Memory_Core - After its discovery in 3028 … This led to the improved military equipment, medical treatments, and purification equipment for water, atmospheres, and whole planetary environments.
Between 3028 and 3050 what developments to production numbers occurred?
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The total war concept does not invigorate economies where distance of light years and the lack of supplies moving to planets is a problem.
Wouldn’t this depend on the number of Jump-ships requisitioned for the military – yes, I will agree that under some economies luxury items will drop, however, that said read the attachment below – as for necessary items, again, only if there is a shortage of Jump-ships.
The salesman that lost their job, though this may be because she/he has been conscripted or is now working in a military industrial facility such as the new munitions plant that has opened.
Military programs may now supplant social programs – which may be a good thing as unemployment is now no longer occurring due to the massive drive for workers within new military industrial facilities / or in the military - education is on the up as upon graduation you can now look forward to a career in the military or if you are a Senator’s Child in a university … , thankyou Creedence Clearwater Revival. Housing is no longer a problem – on base housing has exploded.
Prices remain the same as the law has now initiated anti-war profiteering legislation – though at the same time the Black Market has also exploded thus the need to ensure the Peelers are doing their job (Peelers is a nickname for a Police constable).
That said …. https://prospect.org/health/way-won-america-s-economic-breakthrough-world-war-ii/
I would, however, like to point out one error – America won the war abroad – historically speaking this is not the case, in both Europe and Asia, Russia won the war!
Europe – have a look at the statistics – Russia engaged more and killed more than the US, and were first into Berlin – also due to a certain US’ President’s belief that he could work with Stalin and completely ignore Churchill’s warnings how many countries fell behind the iron curtain?
Asia – as stated many times the Bomb did not force Japan to Surrender – the idea that Japan would fall to the Russians, as they had just declared war on them, was the reason why Japan very quickly surrendered to the US as it ensured they had the possibility of retaining the Emperor under the US whereas under Russia this was impossible (as what happened to Russia’s?).
Thus, as per all reasonable documents I have read and arguments considered total war production WILL increase the IS’ economy overall.
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Saying you are NOT telling anyone anything is a false statement. You are demanding a rewrite of the game because it does not fit your numbers or vision.
What happens if you are demanding a re-write because the original story was … reading like an 1800’s boys own adventure book and was lacking excitement, was too predicable, the characters and plot development was stilted in their response, and the plot development was totally lacking …
Also, when you compare the characters in the warrior series to that of the Clan Invasion book you begin to wonder what is going on, as the character development has fallen off a cliff …
The biggest issue - when you actually begin to try to understand the Inner Spheres response to the Clan invasion you begin to wonder what is going on. As no sane leader would actually consider doing 99.9% of what is written within those very awful plot developments … where a great many of them are so badly written it is hard to understand what is going on …
In my opinion the only way this can be accepted is if the information is taken at face value - without trying to understand. But for me the entire plot development, as well as the majority of characters, were a very bad joke – I kept on wanting it to get better but never did.
Yes, some of the individual stories are interesting – however the main arc story has a great deal to be considered anything other than very badly structured and executed.
Thus the need to point out some of its very many flaws! With the hope that someday someone may consider re-writing it into a more expansive and insightful story with vastly more characters and engagements (a new age of warfare!) – as this is the only way justice can be done to such a comprehensive story - for example Warhammer 40K and the Horus Heresy mid 50s books and how large is each book … this is what should be considered!
Anyway – I have had a great deal of fun with my alternate missions to canon! So why not disseminate …
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as you seem to believe new units just pop up and damage is fixed instantaneously
Er, no … this is why there needs to a running loss depletion report for ‘every’ unit – Clan and Inner Sphere … Though I would like to point out how this occurs on the Canon Clan side.
This is why more information is needed, as to the output for Military Industrial Capabilities, and Logistical transport on both sides …
As for units being down for years - when was this? pre or post Helm Memory Core as the expansion of new mech designs would indicate that the issue of spare parts taking considerable time to fix is no longer a consideration …
As stated above the only way Military Industrial Capabilities – output – and logistical transport can be implemented in the game is if a very simple set of rules is established prior to the clan invasion. The question is how? As the massive number of variables to consider will impact everything.
So again why are the clans allowed nil damage and yet the IS is expected to put up with antiquated rules when it comes to post battle assessment / repair – either one rule for both or I call discrimination and biased game rules.
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So you say canon is wrong.
YES – when were these rules adopted for which Arc? And once you adopt a total war scenario these rules become absolutely-irrelevant!
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I did not see anything that dealt with a specific time.
Then discussing a specific era or anything for that matter is now pointless … I raise a question regarding an apple and in return I receive an orange as to why …
Will equivocating issues will now be standard in all future replies?
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It does not mean all the units that make up one regiment is on one world.
Problem is when a unit is assigned to multiple worlds with the tomes they specifically state which are off-world.
So unless there is a specific note stating this the assumption must be that the entire RCT is on world – as to their disposition on world this depends with what also is on world - what are the RCT there for – garrison – Military industrial capabilities – spaceport – capital what is it and then there is the issue of distance between these primary targets – again this comes back to what is written or not written. Thus if there is no information regarding the planet it is up to the defensive player to create the world that they will defend.
They should be allowed to create the fortress they will defend. This is the only logical coarse of action.
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This is faulty logic. Take Defiance and the stories about it. The workers of the factory do NOT live in the factory but a city near by. You have to defend them in order to keep the skilled workers available for making the units the factory makes. Remove them, and you lose the ability to make anything
Three issues with this,
First, after how many repeated invasions don’t you believe that invasion shelters have been established to protect civilians from this very situation – as during the cold war civil defence shelters and personal fall out shelters were in vogue, so why not here?
Second, killing off the workers and you have now become a war criminal – I do not know about your game, but you can guess with my stance on WMDs that I will have a dim view of this!
Third, if you did kill off the workers and captured the plant who and where are you going to get the workers to do their job to produce the exports that brought you there in the first place – real own goal then!
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You will not find mines that you can set a single factory on all of them at once, to avoid having to protect them all.
If you are fighting a fellow IS House I would agree as this is just SOP.
However, as you are fighting the Clans the issue of defending multiple sites over the planet is pointless. The Clans view of a circle of equals and the belief that everyone should adopt their way of fighting creates massive blinkers. They believe in attacking all HQs in a child’s capture the flag game as the aim of all war – capture the flag, capture the world. This, however, allows all out reaching units who were not attacked in their game of ‘what forces do you defend this planet?’ -assigned elsewhere on the world to immediately initiate a guerrilla war to which the Clan view of war has never even considered a viable strategy. Especially as most garrison units cannot be above trinary level – as this will overtime deplete the remaining invasion numbers down to nil by about the three-quarter level – as they really did not think through their bid numbers when considering the numbers actually required to reach terra.
This also raises the question as to how all these clans thought they could reach Terra -and have enough to actually take Terra when it was academically evident that given the number of garrisons maintained that this becomes academically impossible!
Even cheating by calling in free-born garrison units will not work when you evaluate each Clan’s Touman this also becomes evident that this also will not work – none of the Clans has an adequate number of free-born garrison forces to make this achievable.
Thus at the three quarter mark there really is only one option – reaving from another clan or a trial of absorption – join two together – give up on the losers territory and use this new combined number (again if it is viable considering the damage sustained during such a trial) – Thus for the trial of absorption to become viable for both clans to enable them to maintain their strength for this war there would have to be a limited engagement - so now they will have available forces to continue the march to Terra - This is the only solution given the limited number of units each clan bid for their right to be included in the invasion! Did anyone ever consider this that the numbers just did not work considering the invasion objective?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/28/21 12:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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Unemployment dropping? Unless people are being moved from worlds that have lost access to a lot of things to the worlds that have the boon because of increased manufacturing, then that concept fails. You can not ship jobs to a world to build mechs that have no mech factory.
The only person that I have seen demanding a rewrite has been the one arguing that the story should have done this or that. So far, everyone else said the story was entertaining. There were some points they didn't like, but then in all stories, things are expected. The heroes magically do things no one else can. You know certain things are going to happen as the story forces it to, like Tyra taking out the bridge of the Direwolf. Funny thing is when their ride home jumped, all the pilots should have considered doing just that, as it was fight and die, or surrender. Being at the jump point with enemy ships around, and yours just left, means no fuel to get to any worlds.
Most don't agree with the Jihad. Most say it shouldn't have happened like it did. They do not say it has to be rewritten along their visions of the game.
This issue is not showing what you done, it is saying canon is wrong because they didn't do things that way. As stated before, not knowing what the developers had for numbers leading up to events, there is no way you can argue they did it wrong. Yet that is what it has turned out to be. This simple fact is what is causing the problem. Stop saying canon should have done this or that, and you will find less arguments.
Having units out for a year or more has happened before and after the Core. Trying to get a replacement engine is one of those things that can take a year or more. They don't have thousands of them stockpiled, and depending on where you are assigned, just not a lot of traffic or maybe even having the shipment hijacked. There have been several things come up. This is especially true when only one mech type uses that engine and you are not in the nation that originally builds them. Example: A Stalker on the OA border.
The clans did take damage. They didn't tell you what and how much as losing mechs isn't such a big deal for them. They don't send them all into combat, and will shift pilots to mechs not being used. So the entire concept of Baker Trinary being down doesn't affect them like it does the IS. They can shift units from Charlie Trinary if needed. You don't notice it because you don't know how many they had to start with. Also, a lot of damage that takes time is changing out damaged or destroyed components, normally weapons. The pods negates this for the most part.
Considering the argument that canon is wrong, and using the alt to show why, is very much arguing apples and oranges. Something that doesn't seem to have appeared in comprehension of the threads, yet has been said multiple times.
They do keep some records of where units are, but for some missions, the exact location and what they are doing is not listed. This is how you keep raids and strikes quiet. If you had a list of where units where, simple hacks into your system would tell the enemy what they need to know. And this does not include one of the higher ups taking the unit for a mission.
Shelters were made, but the fact is, just by threatening them, you shut down production at the factory. Also, shelters only last so long. You need food and water stocked in them along with other supplies.
So anytime you bomb a factory in war, and kill the workers, you become a war criminal? The whole reason to destroy factories is to prevent them from working. Yes, there is a difference as you are going after the workers outside of the factory, but then any assassinations would be a war crime. It isn't like wiping out cities hasn't been a popular event during wars.
Experience is the main key between workers there and bringing in your own. Loyalty is the reason why you would want your own people in those positions, as sabotage will be likely. From damage to the factory itself to having extra things installed in what they are making. Simple software that pings the location of the enemy using a unit on up to remote detonated explosives or shut down. There are so many things someone can do, and if the manufacturers were smart, they would have coding like this as part of their primary functions, so you can find or remove it easily. Part of unrewritable chips.
The mines I was talking about was not explosive, but with the context given, ore mines, IE iron, copper and such. This is why I continue to say you don't read everything and comprehend what is being said. This pattern suggests you do this with the story lines, and miss why things were done a certain way. Adding in things that aren't there is another issue that shows up from time to time. I do understand that examples can help others understand the point of view, so haven't been that vocal on that point.
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ghostrider
08/28/21 08:43 PM
45.51.181.83
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The question on why you would take worlds that don't have military manufacturing has been asked.
There is a very simple reason for this besides denying safe places to the enemy.
The question of how governments pay for anything is the answer.
Taxes. He who has lands will gain money from those living on the lands. I would say the rich are the exception, but that is a given.
Military units are sold in other nations, and having the money to buy them is necessary when you lose your ability. To think your enemy is defeated when they can't make their own weapons is being naive. In the world today, there are a lot of nations that don't make the equipment they use. They buy from others.
The idea of Comstar being a bank of sorts shows true in this case. Credit is transferred thru Comstar to worlds. Without the HPG network, there would be no way to deal with the nations in a war.
So just because a world does not build military equipment does not mean it isn't economically important.
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Requiem
08/28/21 09:32 PM
1.158.137.81
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You can not ship jobs to a world to build mechs that have no mech factory.
And yet this is done all the time in the USA – as how many industries are required to keep the military operational? …
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defence_companies_by_country
Food, Clothing, Heath care, communication, technology, civil engineering requirements, - small arms requirements - ordnance requirements – vehicle requirements (and the list goes on and on) Then there are the individual parts than make them – so how many parts are made in one state, then shipped to another for final construction, just so that individual house armed services commission members will accept defence policy when it comes to decision of making a new vehicle for the military?
The military are not just manufacturing new Mechs. The logistical requirement of keeping any military operational is staggering – the ability to transfer one of those plants to a world that requires an economic boost is also achievable.
Then there is the reverse – transfer people from depressed worlds to those that have requirements for more personnel.
Let me guess you are then going to say this is impossible due to the shortages in Jump-ships – and I will counter with stating that as we have no exact figures this suggestion becomes impossible to quantify.
So lets put this on the table – in 3025 and the 4th succession war there was a shortage – then along comes the Helm Memory Core … As Jump-ships and Drop-ships are the vehicle to which each states military and economic prosperity is achieved at what point does any state stand up and say now that we know how to build ships and warships once more the question now is how to build then en mass? - so let us start with this. When is the point reached when each state starts a program to build ships in numbers as they did during the Star League Era? As this is perhaps THE most singular important concept in a black sea universe – when do you start building more ship-yards so that you can build more ships?
This is one of the most fundamental issues in the Battletech universe – who and when does any Great House recognise that the problem can now be fixed – they have the technology and the manpower to mass produce … America recognised this prior to joining WW2, they recognised that England required ships en mass thus whole new ship yards were created for this very purpose – Kaiser Shipyards for example where ships and yards grew together … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUm6xjXq3MU
Sorry, but in my opinion this must have started some time prior to 3039 – then the question is how many new yards can be established and how many – and this is where I leave canon and start a massive new shipping program for the FC (including their captured former CC territory) and sometime soon thereafter the DC and the FWL will also have to recognise this and shift resources to ship building.
Thus, the question is, what effect this would have by 3050? as this figure is now at the discretion of GM …
As the Clans arrive in 3050 and the invasion continues the number of ships requested will only increase … and again this figure will be at the discretion of the GM.
So again I say, there is an issue here that should have been addressed by canon and has never been adequately addressed.
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Most don't agree with the Jihad. Most say it shouldn't have happened like it did. They do not say it has to be rewritten along their visions of the game.
If more individuals did stand up and say this is poorly written, and that they are dissatisfied then maybe someone would have recognised the need for more informed and exciting stories and the universe would not have ended up as a poorly written as it has.
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This issue is not showing what you done, it is saying canon is wrong because they didn't do things that way.
No it is poorly written because (in my opinion) no one actually took some time to do some research and think through the invasion and the responses to the invasion – it appears to have been a very cooky cutter approach to war as it was rushed through and not given the time and diligence that is required to turn a story into something vastly superior.
This is the hallmark of the Clan Invasion – it was all too rushed and not given the time that is required to adequately create a superior product from a mediocre product.
This is why there are so many grumblings about the invasion …
When told who was in command of the FC and the DC and then you compare their actions during the 4th Succession war and 3039 to that of the Clan invasion what is your response?
When told that the IS could manufacture Clan Weapons what was your response?
When told that during the 1 year of peace nothing was going to happen to reinforce any position what was your response?
When “Finally” the Dragoons decided to inform the IS about their heritage what was your response?
Then the 15 years truce and the rush to kill off just ONE clan what was your response?
Where are all the IS Omni mechs – in reality the Angel WOB mechs should be standard for all IS forces at this stage!
Then Huntress itself – no technology or factories taken home? Sorry but again did someone loose track of the bigger picture here?
I stand by what I have written – this is perhaps one of the worst examples of a science fiction war that has ever been published! There is no getting around it – it does not survive the test of time, if I attempt to re-read these books now I end up throwing them against the wall due to the complete and utter implausibility of the stories written. So there is but only one solution – re-write it!
Thus I have placed suggestions forward as to how this can be rewritten – how it can be made more exiting.
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As stated before, not knowing what the developers had for numbers leading up to events, there is no way you can argue they did it wrong.
The issue is that as far as any book has been produced – THER ARE NO NUMBERS!
And without numbers you cannot adequately quantify how an interstellar war involving nations can be said to be realistic. Vague issues just leads to speculation and doubt as to what can and cannot be achieved!
When comparing the manoeuvrability of the 4ths Succession War and that of the Clan Invasion it is easy to hypothesise that during the Clan War they were using a the jump-vastly reduced ship fleet and there were absolutely no good reasons for doing so.
So again there is but one solution – we the fans need to stand up and say we are displeased – please make note of why we are displeased – and please fix it.
Question – If presented with the possibility of a re-write to make the game more enjoyable, that could also reinvigorate the game – bring in vastly new people to back when it first came out - would you be upset at this prospect or would you think this was all in the best for the company and get on board?
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Trying to get a replacement engine is one of those things that can take a year or more. They don't have thousands of them stockpiled, and depending on where you are assigned, just not a lot of traffic or maybe even having the shipment hijacked. There have been several things come up.
Then why is this only happening to Inner Sphere forces – Clan Space is far more distant, the number of ships they brought with them indicate that they do not have mass quantities stockpiled and the Inner Sphere also has the opportunity to hijack their shipments – so why does this never seem to occur for the clans?
Again - pitiful writing.
Then with Total War and the expansion of the armaments industries – how will this alleviate the shortages – remember the IS has shorter logistic chains and far more manpower than that of the Clans – A further point that was never addressed in any of the books!
Comparisons to the Inner Sphere should be that of USA WW2 and Japan – the industrial might of the IS is staggering (many, many times greater) when compared to that of the Clans – their manpower and their ability to mass produce warriors is far more in excess of that of the Clans … and yet this was never addressed ….
Again – pitiful writing
There must come a point in time for every House to recognise that there is issues with their military industrial complex as to shortages – such as engines – and at that point they should do everything they can to alleviate the problem and not to let it stagnate
All of this is achievable with Omni Tech – reduce the number of weapons systems so that spares no longer become an issue and yet what do we get the complete opposite for the Inner Sphere … again can someone get a grip on reality!
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The clans did take damage. They didn't tell you what and how much as losing mechs isn't such a big deal for them.
This issue was never truly explored - every battle with the Clans never explored this – even post Tukayyid – the damage each clan must have sustained would have been vast – so why didn’t the Inner Sphere take advantage of this to launch a massive retaliatory strikes into the heart of many of the Clans – to keep them off balanced – keep their numbers low – the Falcons demonstrated that such actions are allowable with their strike above the line, so why not in reverse and in numbers, utilizing their own traditions against them? You have them on the ropes so why not keep them on the ropes for the next 15 years … do nothing and you risk them digging in, you allow resupply through – you allow then time to build their own military industrial facilities within the IS … all this must be opposed!
Again, this is now getting beyond a joke as to how bad writing can get – this is war – you cannot cede them one planet. The Objective can only be their total and utter expulsion for the Inner Sphere – there is no other that can be allowed!
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They do keep some records of where units are, but for some missions, the exact location and what they are doing is not listed.
Then who gets to say what is and what is not there if there are no records – is there going to be an emergency email I can send a question to every time I am going to propose an invasion that will provide me with all the information that I require?
Until then the best I can do is go by the book – it says the unit is here on this world – and the book also says the unit has XY&Z forces – thus I will have all of these forces available to me when the Clans arrive, as per how I have created my defensive operations for the campaign to come.
As how am I supposed to account for the higher ups taking a unit for a mission if there is no book on the subject and there is no table that says you have to role 2D6 prior to every planetary invasion to determine how many units have been sent off world prior to invasion, just so you can mess with defensive operations?
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just by threatening them, you shut down production at the factory
Depends on the factory – if built into a mountain where all supplies are maintained for production then there is absolutely no point to halt construction.
Above ground facility - yes you would as this is a safety issue where all personnel would be sent to the bunker.
Why else would Germany begin constructing vast underground factories at the end of WW2?
So again in reality considering the severe number of wars within the Inner Sphere wouldn’t every important facility be underground from the get go?
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So anytime you bomb a factory in war, and kill the workers, you become a war criminal?
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The workers of the factory do NOT live in the factory but a city near by.
You stated that they live in a city nearby – so in all reality, they live there with their families ie. civilians. Also, since when did factory workers equate to the same level of military personnel?
This is a very interesting legal argument that I am more than willing to argue if you like – but it will get technical as to the rules of land combat very fast!
As for assassinations – against whom and by whom? Is this person a Designated Military Target?
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Experience is the main key between workers there and bringing in your own.
Do they know how to operate the machinery in the correct sequence – this is not just pushing a button and it all works – this is vastly more complicated – and do they know how to fix things when they break?
The education time to get this up and running again could be in the years!
Great own goal you captured a plant – killed off its workers – and now for the next couple of years you can figure out how to turn a paperweight into a factory once more!
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I do understand that examples can help others understand the point of view, so haven't been that vocal on that point.
As per every teacher in school … if you do not understand, ask me. I am not a mind reader – be vocal and ask.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
08/28/21 09:47 PM
1.158.137.81
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So just because a world does not build military equipment does not mean it isn't economically important.
Then there is strategically important
As stated before you take the strategically important first – then after these have been taken you can mop up the less than strategically important.
This is the only way real gains can be achieved in the shortest possible times.
Also what is the GDP and tax revenue of a world that does not have a record when compared to world that has a vast population, an A ranked HPG and its Socio-industrial levels are all B or above …. My bet the magnitude would be vast.
So why bother nickel and dime the war when the real gains and the real money are located on the most strategically important worlds that in all likelihood will also have massive military industrial capabilities?
Take these take the money and take the ability of the military to rebuild – reduce their logistics to nil how far will they get in the next battle if their consumables are reduced to next to nil?
How many Mechs / vehicles out there are highly reliant on consumables to fight compared to those that are primarily energy based?
This must be taken into consideration when engaging the enemy. You do not have to damage an enemy by taking them on you can damage them by destroying their consumables and their ability to resupply – then attack them as once all consumables are gone how effective will they be now?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/28/21 11:58 PM
45.51.181.83
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How do you ship jobs to a world to build mechs, that have no mech factory? And you say it is done all the time in the U.S.
Do the workers just fax in their work and the mech is made by 3d printing? You physically have to be in the factory to build something like a mech. Building support items for it is not the same thing. Such items as internal structure, armor and a massive amount of other things needs to be done in the factories. Most worlds do not have such items.
All the production in the universe is not going to help when there is no transports to move the items to where they are needed. This simple concept seems to be non existent in your view.
The term deficit spending is only possible when someone else has the funds to buy your IOU. For most of the history of the succession wars, this didn't happen. War bonds only did so much. But eventually, you have to pay them back. When you default on them, people will stop buying them in the future.
This is getting old, but I will say it again. The developers did not want the IS having clan tech as it meant that their next big threat would require something more powerful. As WOB didn't have the great numbers needed to threaten everyone, they brought in higher tech. Had the IS actually have used clan tech in everything, then the WOB fight would have been a minor threat except for the nukes. Even then, a fleet of warships around worlds would have stopped that as well as the invasions into some of the capitals. It would also mean the clans would cease to be a real threat, and would have been pushed out of the IS without requiring full scale invasions. SO TPTB did track what would happen. And they wanted to keep it from spoiling their next steps.
So no numbers means no quantifiable way of saying the developers are wrong for doing things they way that did? No numbers to tell what and where they did things wrong? Imagine that.
And there are some numbers in the books. They don't have a big list saying what is what, but they do have snippets scattered around the older books. 2000 jumpships. Then 500 mechs made in the FWL, along with 130 valkyries per year. So saying there is no numbers is false. Go research the older books to gain more information on it.
Comparing the 4th war to the 3039 war is apples and oranges. There is an entirely different set of circumstances that went down. They have been explained before, but again, they don't fit your view.
4th war. Intel of the CC was pretty accurate and was exploited. 3039 war, intel was spotty at best. Comstar working with the DC removed any sure bets by the FC. Hmmmmm. Yeah, I think I was wrong. I see the same thing in both wars.
Why doesn't the clans have problems with units? Maybe because they did not require a mech for each warrior, but moved them all around as there is NO private mechs in the clans. So mechs can be moved up from another unit to fill the ones that are active. So you see they are always full, yet do not see that they have a trinary waiting for repairs. As Omnis have a standard engine, it is more likely to have spares, as you don't have dozens of models on one weight like the IS has. Less space needed to bring in spares.
Still not getting the fact that the IS had issues with spares for most mech parts? Even ammunition wasn't a sure fire bet. And then ignoring the supply issues with jumpships and such shows thru. Even making more jumpships does not mean you have dug your way out of the whole the wars have made. 20 ships sounds like a lot, yet jumpships are lost in combat due to fire. Dropships that are attached are the targets, but we know the game isn't great with accuracy, so the jumpships do take hits. Pirates don't care. They target jumpships to get them to surrender. If they don't, well examples need to be made. Gutting one might well fix a few that need parts. Hmmm....
So you might have figured out the secret to invasions and why most fail. You have to do it with the forces you have on hand. There is no mix and match units to create the perfect unit to deal with each specific scenario like the board game allows, You don't get to pull out the support company assaulting a heavy woods area. This is why casualties occur. You don't get to send in a battalion to take out a company most of the time. You are lucky to have a company there. No waiting allowed, as you need things done. Air transport is not going to help. Speeds of the craft as well as needing to remove and replace things on the units to get them to fit. Air superiority is unlikely as well, as a lot of invasions had fighters trying to wipe out each other. Much like real wars. I'm sorry Patton. I don't have a full battalion of Tigers here today, so we will have to postpone the fight until next week.
You think that Defiance had all their workers underground? The books say specifically they lived in a city away from the factory. Having an underground rail way would not prevent the enemy from stopping them. Destroying the railway or at least just occupying it would shut it down. They might even try to use it to hit the factory or set up a trap incase the defenders tried the same thing. This sort of recon is far easier then finding out where a unit is heading to and what their mission is.
Argue your legal crap all you want. The same laws are not present in the game future. Taking out the enemy's ability to produce is a valid target. Blockades do that more effectively then not. The military starves less then the population when food is cut off. The fact those very factories are turning out things that will kill your people tends to get others to forget about things like being nice to the enemy populations. This is a big part of WHY the fights happen. To protect your people, you need to keep the enemy away from them. Also, living and working in a factory like Defiance is a known target area. How many people died in WWII that lived in certain cities and had nothing to do with military production? How many times have those factories been placed by civilians to avoid being destroyed?
Governors and such get targeted for assassinations. Non military personnel like the scientists working on projects get targeted. Not part of an explosion to kill high ranking military but are the actual targets of the assassination. Even mayors, which don't order military units around get sniped.
Oh, you mean the factories don't have all the blueprints and paperwork to operate the machines on hand? They are kept in one location that could be struck and take out off of this in one shot? For the most part, the machinery is the same thing in all nations. Yes, it will take a little bit of time to figure it out, but then there is always someone ready to show others how to do it for a bonus, even if that is nothing more then their loved ones not being tortured.
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levelup
08/29/21 12:41 AM
113.179.53.73
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Post deleted by Cray
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Requiem
08/29/21 05:40 AM
1.158.137.81
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How do you ship jobs to a world to build mechs, that have no mech factory? And you say it is done all the time in the U.S.
As stated above - so how many parts are made in one state, then shipped to another for final construction. How many Mech plants can be said to have all the parts on world to manufacture a complete Mech – How Many have subsidiaries on other worlds – that make the weapons, and on others, the engine and gyro, and on others the communication and targeting computers, and on others the Jump Jets / armour ….
Ever considered why? As would it not be more economically feasible to make everything on one world?
The same goes for all vehicles – and all associated plants necessary to keep the military operational – by placing these plants in economically depressed areas they will have the effect of invigorating the local economy.
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All the production in the universe is not going to help when there is no transports to move the items to where they are needed. This simple concept seems to be non existent in your view.
Hey! I was correct … stated as predicted … and ignored …. What a surprise!
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The term deficit spending is only possible when someone else has the funds to buy your IOU. For most of the history of the succession wars, this didn't happen. War bonds only did so much.
Please do provide the BattleTech Universe Bonds page? As well as all information regarding the Banking industry and international derivative market?
As per Jump-ship numbers, Logistics numbers etc – Bonds also do not seem to exist.
can I just make it up as I go along?
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The developers did not want the IS having clan tech as it meant that their next big threat would require something more powerful.
Problem is that every rational engineer would say otherwise – it may take time and money but there must come a time when the IS can mass produce.
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It would also mean the clans would cease to be a real threat
And this is why you actually create think tanks to consider this at the beta stage before going to mass marketing and stop having people like me poking holes in the entire story due to a very bad story.
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So saying there is no numbers is false. Go research the older books to gain more information on it.
Question – what does 3025 production quotas tell us about the 3050 and beyond – that between these periods there was an X% increase in production due to new technology brought on by the Helm Memory Core and that is about it.
If discussing 3050 then there is requirement for 3050 analytical information!
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Comparing the 4th war to the 3039 war is apples and oranges.
And when comparing the military leadership style of all the Great Houses during 4th Succession War, the 3039 war – as the majority had the same person at the wheel for all three – how do you compare them then to how their forces acted during the initial Clan Invasion? - in this case it is Apples and Apples – your assessment please …
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Maybe because they did not require a mech for each warrior, but moved them all around as there is NO private mechs in the clans.
Can you please provide me with the book and page number where this comes from as from a sociological, psychological and military logistics perspective this completely goes against everything that has been written about the clans.
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Still not getting the fact that the IS had issues with spares for most mech parts?
When did this first occur and when did it cease? As any logical military commander – ie House Leader – this would be one of the first issues that they would want to address and fix so as to win more wars.
Or do you presume to suggest that no matter what the Inner Sphere does that they can never ever fix this – that all throughout their history they must have an issue when it comes to spare parts – whereas the Clans do not ever have to have an issue …
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Even making more jump-ships does not mean you have dug your way out of the whole the wars have made. 20 ships sounds like a lot
What happens if that 20 ships is at each yard per year! and the number of yards that are being created also increases each year ….
Say the FC start off with ….
10 yards – that’s 200 ships per year
Then in those 5 years … that’s now 1000 ships
20 yards and now 40 ships per year – that’s now 800 ships per year
Then in those 5 years … that’s now 4,000 ships
So from 3039 to 3050 we add in well over 5,000 new jump-ships all of different Classes
And this is not even getting to Warship production …
Then when Total War arrives this number increases even further … and between 3039 to 3050 the number of pirate activity where there is high volume Jump-ship traffic is next to nill – no ships lost there!
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The books say specifically they lived in a city away from the factory.
What is the time between Jump-ship shock wave that can be registered until arrival – what is the Jump Point distance in days? So how long does it take to evacuate a city to the underground bunker in days?
And how many security precautions would there be in place for an underground railway – as wouldn’t someone ensure that there is a security system in place, just in case it was ever needed?
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The same laws are not present in the game future.
And yet ethics endure – as well as the battle cry Remember Kentares!!!! …. I guess we can add a new Remember (new planet name)!!!!
This will be great for the propaganda – used to rally the troops as well a painting the states troops that committed the deed as the most evil of evil …. People throughout the IS will through up the hands decrying the act, just because of the propaganda that’s now been fed to them.
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many people died in WWII that lived in certain cities and had nothing to do with military production?
Cutris LeMay …. “I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.... Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspects of what he is doing. But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you're not a good soldier.”
https://www.history.com/news/dresden-bombing-wwii-allies
see how history views such actions now.
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assassinations.
May I suggest research on what is and what is not a legitimate military target … during many of the wars as they seem to vary … Also suggest reading Nany Wakes’ (White Mouse) ideas on this topic …
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Oh, you mean the factories don't have all the blueprints and paperwork to operate the machines on hand?
They were all purged … and funny thing, your soldiers just murdered everyone who could have explained … so how will your liege lord think on this? and how will you explain it to your liege lord? – He ordered this vast military expedition just so he could capture a paperweight! … and all just because your troops were let off the leash! …. About now suicide will sound like a good proposition ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/29/21 11:54 AM
45.51.181.83
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Have you seen the lists of where parts are made? Not even close to every world. They are made at specific plants on specific worlds. Just saying the auto plant on planet x can be converted to making mech parts isn't that simple. It can be done, but not worth it. They do require higher end manufacturing concepts, such as the internal structure requires furnaces, and without having a dedicated staff watching the employees, things like mismade ones happen a lot. Opening the door to cool the place down make substandard parts. And how many worlds are you going to try and set this up on? It also does not answer the question of how do you move those parts? Each world needs another jumpship. The best answer is to have the factories for the parts on the wolrds were you are building the units. This does little to nothing for the other worlds.
You can't just take a pick up truck and ship parts from New Avalon to Hesperus II.
You believe that making parts on worlds and not being able to move them is a good thing? It would be far better for those worlds to build things like infrastructure then parts that will just sit and take up space. And that is IF those worlds have factories that can make the parts. Otherwise, you convert things to war specs, probably removing them from building commercial goods ever again. Then comes the depression as nothing is made for sales and prices skyrocket as jobs are lost. Yeah. Great for the economy. The only that profit from this is the rich. Good call.
You can make up all everything as you go along. You can't use those made up things as fodder against canon saying it is wrong because of your made up numbers. Which happens in almost every post. Telling everyone that your numbers must be used as you demand a rewrite that follows your views. Still not getting the picture?
I haven't heard anyone say that producing clan tech was a bad idea. Most have even argued it should have been done. The cost thing is BS. They upgraded the factories to build SL tech. The elite units of each house would have clantech in all of them at the least. Even if it was nothing more then a single factory per year, clantech would be done. As stated, I think the double sinks would be one of them. The half weight missile launchers would be another, though I can see why TPTB don't want to do this. It would allow vehicles to become far more powerful, with the missile carriers being able to carry double the launchers, or armor up so they don't die as they only have 12 armor. Also, clan tech kills faster. So more units are lost that much quicker, meaning their low numbers of mech would be far worse. Take out an Atlas in one round isn't something they want.
You forgot to add in that you are not looking for production numbers for any period. You were specifically looking for 3050. Which the original statement made was the 3025 era being around 3000 a year. Following the history of the game, you can figure out a decent number from knowing what is done in 3025, and removing destroyed factories and adding in new ones.
You think the same circumstances happened in 3029 and 3039? There is only people dying being the same thing. No sure why you believe they are one and the same. I don't hear you complaining the DC got the short end of the 4th war. Takashi focusing on the Dragoons instead of taking more FS worlds should be one of the top priority complaints. But that would hurt the FS. So yeah. Takashi's performance leading the DC during the 4th war, then again during the 3039 war was about the same. Theodore was the one making the better decisions. SO when the clans hit, the DC was set to lose with Takashi in charge. So yeah. That is taking history and showing what the future holds. In that, I am wrong to say oranges.
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ghostrider
08/29/21 12:20 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is no privately owned mechs in the clans. Mechwarriors will sometimes call for a challenge to pilot a specific mech, but if they stay in it or not is decided by the leaders. You want an instance of a clan warrior moving mechs. Take Vlad. He used a Timberwolf when he first fought Phelan. His normal ride was the Executioner. Aidan liked the Summoner, but piloted other mechs in his career. There are more examples in the game.
No matter what, the use of the mechs is up to the Khans, then galaxy commander on down the line. If your ride is needed elsewhere, you can challenge to be part of the fight, though it is not certain they would allow such a challenge.
The issue with spares first started when the factories making mech parts were destroyed in the 1st war. To my knowledge it was not solved even after the clans invaded. The clan invasion is about when I stopped buying the books. I would think that reducing the number of mechs in the RoTS era, they finally had spares.
Given the fact it takes time to make the shipyards, it is not likely to be done in anything under 5 years, and even that is short. Now the example of 20 ships was not per shipyard. That was total for the example, for the IS. The single Monolith producer is lucky to get out 1 ship per 2 years. This is stated in the dropships and jumpships book. I don't remember off hand what they said in the 3057 tro about it.
The one jumpship yard being built was suggested at 10 years. Not sure how many slips it was slated for. I know they used the lack of Germanium for the jump drives being a factor on how many could be produced, but this sounds artificial.
So many worlds perished under the nuclear fire storm. Kentares is famous for the coordinator demanding the sword be used to execute the people. Funny how Katherine brought back the horrors to Kentares.
Nukes were outlawed at one time, and what happened? The one that got it done decided to abandon the treaty.
To be honest, there is no legitimate targets for assassination. None. It makes it easy to remove problems instead of an all out war, but you are basically sending a hit man in. Where I do agree it is far better to take out someone that will cause an unjust war, then going to war. It does not change the fact that it is a targeted murder. This covering up of the law may be why wars were so popular in the past. You could kill millions and get away with it. I do agree with defending yourself. I don't agree with claiming things that aren't yours and trying to take it by force.
All purged? You mean when a factory was falling into enemy hands, they destroyed the documents on how to run it? Imagine that. Losing tech because of the scorched earth concept of factories being taken.
You still believe that no one will know how to run the factory? Where you can gain information from those moved, the DC was well known to ship local populations to worlds more under the control of the DCMS. No one said you have to kill everyone just yet. Gain the information to use the equipment and then finish the job. Most of the time, you have someone undercover that has learned how to run such equipment. And the traitors that will help always show up at some point. As the tag line in the game says. "Life is cheap" I dislike this a lot, but it follows the trend going on now. You can always find others to do the job. Make people desperate enough and they will flock to your hazardous, underpaying jobs in droves.
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Karagin
08/29/21 12:29 PM
70.118.172.64
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On the DC thing, I do believe that in Heir to the Dragon it is hinted that Takashi had a couple of strokes prior to calling Theodore back to Luithen. That would be an explanation for his problems in the 4th War. As well as his issues overall after that.
As for the rest of the ASB things, it is clear that Requiem has no idea how economics works. It doesn't make any sense to put every comment for a mech (or vehicle) on a single planet. That is asking for the enemy to blow up the whole planet.
As I said before, we are back to the same circle with him, he doesn't want to hear the information we have given him, he is set that his ALT is the ONLY way things can go. I am sure that he reads the stuff, but I doubt he fully comprehends the information.
I am all for one defending their ideas, just like I do mine, but even I can see a logical reason for something, and nothing logical has been present for the WoB storyline sorry Cray, and I am willing to add the information to my pool of knowledge. That doesn't seem to be the case for Requiem. He wants to present his ideas as canon, and I must say we are being far nicer to him than would have been done in the past around here over that issue.
So I am bowing out completely. His stuff has gone back to the same idea that his take is the only one and why aren't we just agreeing with him.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/29/21 03:03 PM
45.51.181.83
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I am with you on defending ideas. I am totally against the saying canon is wrong because it doesn't fit their idea.
There are a lot of points I agree are wrong in the story line, based on what the game books provide. The fact 10 RCTs were formed for the FC RCTs, yet the production rates say that wasn't possible. I know they came from other units, but there is still some major issues with that.
The famous clantech issue is another thing that doesn't fit with the game. And lots more.
But I am not saying a rewrite and give them demands on HOW it should go on the rewrite.
A few things should happen, with one of them being the novel writers actually following the game rules. Coming up with things that aren't in the game, or have rules against it just shouldn't happen.
Kai being able to use elemental armor like a clan warrior that has been training for years in it is one such thing. The concept of pulling the torso back to give the arms a greater firing arc is another.
I believe the time has come again to ignore the purposeful ignoring of facts. I could do the same thing and say the alt is wrong because my numbers don't match, but that is entirely hypocritical. So I try to stick with canon facts.
Ignorance is not knowing, once told, then it becomes something else.
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Requiem
08/29/21 05:40 PM
1.158.137.81
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Just saying the auto plant on planet x can be converted to making mech parts isn't that simple. It can be done, but not worth it.
How many times must I reiterate that establishing mech ancillary plants is not what is occurring? What is occurring is establishing a multitude of different plants, based upon their suitability, where necessary and transferring people where necessary.
If the planet has an auto plant on planet X – then convert the plant into the manufacture of a military vehicle – so is the vehicle hover or wheeled?
Moving all parts is done on a hub and spoke arrangement thus an efficient use of jump-ships. As isn’t this what it being attempted, determine their most efficient use in all areas of commerce / manufacturing – then transferring all excess craft to military fleet.
Furnaces and open doors for heating / cooling? when did 3050 plants devolve back to circa 1900-1940’s?
Quality control ? hasn’t this concept been standard and integrated into all forms of work? Thus making this this point specious.
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You can't just take a pick up truck and ship parts from New Avalon to Hesperus II.
In the event that there was a map, which indicated existing shipping routes, I would say this is highly plausible.
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Then comes the depression as nothing is made for sales and prices skyrocket as jobs are lost. Yeah. Great for the economy. The only that profit from this is the rich. Good call.
As stated above …. https://prospect.org/health/way-won-america-s-economic-breakthrough-world-war-ii/
There are numerous web pages on this topic that I am basing this on that categorically states the depression alluded to never occurred. That in reality it was through this the USA was finally able to get out of their financial crisis prior to ww2. Therefore, please find proof to back up this assertion and express why this is the case, other than just an opinion.
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Ignorance is not knowing, once told, then it becomes something else.
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You can make up all everything as you go along.
How many times have I provided real life examples as well as links to posts as evidence to back up my assertions?
Telling and demanding that I am in error without examples and posts, just opinion, is not going to change my opinion. If you want to do this than please, research the issue and provide examples and posts that reaffirm your point of view.
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I haven't heard anyone say that producing clan tech was a bad idea.
Thus we agree, by a certain date Inner Sphere weapon systems (Mech, vehicle, fighter etc) will be slowly retrofitted with Inner Sphere Clan knock offs – I would also like to add front line units will also be converted also into 100% omni units (efficiency of spare parts etc).
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Following the history of the game, you can figure out a decent number from knowing what is done in 3025
How many more times more efficient? As this is effectively going from hand made (circa 3025) to mass manufacture (circa 3050’s) utilising robots and an assembly line process – what can be considered a plausible example. The issue is to find figures on a fully automated Mech Plant as a base then increase this by a factor of 2 to 5 depending on many factors that go into its manufacturing process.
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You think the same circumstances happened in 3029 and 3039?
Homework Topic - Compare and contrast the tactics, number of units utilized etc by the House Lords in both the 4th Succession War and the War of 3039 with that of the tactics, number of units etc utilized by the same House Lords in the Clan Invasion.
Is there an obvious difference that appeared strange – and why do you believe so?
For example – Hanse Davion
Where is the massive and daring strikes that used time to perfection, that was so common in the 4th Succession war - where is the planning and the intellect that was so commonly seen – where is the fox! as it is clear that this person is absent (MIA) during the Clan Invasion!
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There is no privately owned mechs in the clans.
And the majority of the regular forces for each great house? Those purchased by the state were they privately owned?
Please explain – Omni Mech A is owned two days a week by one unit and the remainder by another? Where the two units must perpetually move together or there is an issue over which target world, and unit, this Mech is to go with?
Then on paper we have an over inflated military – in reality this could be much smaller?
As for rides – what about on Kathil during the FedCom Civil war - wasn’t a certain mech swapped between lances? Then there is the issue in the Kell Hounds didn’t a certain officer (Daniel Allard) become dispossessed only to be provided with a Wolfhound?
This is not a clan only system– all military units and their commanders will be looking to optimize their units through trade, battlefield salvage or upgrades as they come along.
Inter military unit swapping is normal SOP for all – Clans and IS.
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The issue with spares …To my knowledge it was not solved even after the clans invaded.
Here I disagree – this is a critical issue within all IS military that must be solved. With the Arrival of the Helm Memory Core this would have been very high on list to solve ASAP.
Thus, In my opinion, it must be solved prior to the arrival of the Clans.
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Given the fact it takes time to make the shipyards, it is not likely to be done in anything under 5 years, and even that is short.
And yet during the Star League Era it was that short – The Pyramids – The Great Wall of China …. There are many examples throughout history where through manpower humanity has achieved what was believed to be impossible.
And 20 ships total is not even an increase of one jumpship per yard per year!
What is occurring in the shipyards is also the same as that which is occurring in Mech production – a vast increase in the number of, and new models.
Again look at the post above for shipyards prior to and during WW2 – a vast expansion in the number of yards and the number of ships being produced.
Have a good look at Los Alamos, New Mexico – and others. The ability to manufacture when necessary is staggering.
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Funny how Katherine brought back the horrors to Kentares.
Really? Where as history points the blame at Marcus Roland – 5th Donegal.
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there is no legitimate targets for assassination
Operation Foxley / Valkyrie – Adolf Hitler
Operation Anthropoid - Reinhard Heydrich
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All purged?
Grasping at straws? How many months years even to restart a factory.
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Theodore Kurita
He was on Luthien – it fell to him to stop the Clans – so where is the man who used the Ghost Units to such effect?
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It doesn't make any sense to put every comment for a mech (or vehicle) on a single planet.
Please re-read exactly what was written.
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He wants to present his ideas as canon
How many times have I said this is not the case … including within this forum!
Only to be accused again and again
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/29/21 11:27 PM
45.51.181.83
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You have not read Objective Raids at all? The layout of Lushan factories specifically state that workers get disciplined for leaving the large mech door open to let in cool air. Page 185 under Forges. So yes. Workers do perform dumb things when they think it is safe.
Are you trying to be funny? You can not drive from New Avalon to Hesperus II in a pick up truck. You need a jumpship and a few months to get there.
The assertations you provide in game format is inaccurate at best. Little is accurate when providing canon material. I can link to pages that suggest things that I know aren't true. It doesn't make things right. Sun Tzu did NOT come up with all the wisdom he wrote down. He just took what was already known and wrote it down in one book. Yet the way things are presented, it makes it sound like no one knew anything before he did.
With being educated in the U.S. I find some things suggested as propaganda from others around the world. I know not everything taught to me was accurate, but I have less faith in education systems around the world.
By the way, the U.S. deficit came from the spending on war. The war bonds had to be paid back, and spending money on credit continued after the wars. This is because taxes were not collected, as people did not have the funds shortly after a great deal of people lost their jobs.
So the automated system that build the Valkyrie isn't valid. Nice to know.
Oh yeah. You read all the books and didn't read that one. Interesting how things like this keep coming up.
4th war. Hanse had the intel on what was where and had Max's intel department shooting darts in the dark to figure out what was going on.
3039 war. Comstar made accurate intel on the DC impossible. The fact that the DC was sold mechs by Comstar didn't get known until after those mechs just appeared. The fact Yakuza were piloting those mechs took Hanse by surprise because Takashi would NEVER have done so himself. Takashi's strategies were known to Hanse.
The clans. NO intel at all was being received to even begin to understand the enemy at first. The fact Nondi was running the LC show also says that even if they did, the truth would be twisted and ignored by the LCAF.
So yeah. It was all the same thing with each war.
What do you know. Trinaries and even Clusters were traveling together so when a winning bid was made, they could move the mechs to the unit to fight, while the losers of the bid sat in orbit complaining about being stuck on the ships without a mech. The exception MIGHT be those that were bid out last. They MIGHT be called into battle as a loss of honor for the winning commander.
The Kell Hounds had spare units. They also were able to take prize units and put them to field as well.
And there are privately owned mechs in the regular armies. It is part of a deal the mech warrior had with the unit and nation.
And your statement answers the question of Daniel Allard. To become deposessed means losing your personal mech. And with that, you are talking about a merc unit, not a normal house unit. Apples and oranges yet again.
The SL era. Massive amounts of supplies on hand with thousands of trained workers skilled in the very construction job that is required.
3025. Most people that are trained are already working in the few ship yards left. No large scale force waiting to defend the site, as there isn't enough to adequately cover the border much less 3 jumps deep.
Not sure where you got 20 ships over 20 years from. The statement was even 20 extra ships per year isn't enough to dig the IS out of the deficit the succession wars created.
Funny. It was suggested that taking over a factory means all information on how to run that factory dies with the work crew. How is this if the information isn't purged? But again, the context solved that issue, yet it was ignored to try and get out of the facts.
Not sure what is going on with asking where the man that used the ghost regiments to great effect is.
Reread the statement? You want a listing of every last piece of equipment to every unit on every world. You also want to know who is on shore leave or off on a secret mission every day of a war or just before one. There is no need to reread that. This is trying to side step the fact that units have units out of action for a length of time, and don't want to admit they are not at full strength every time they are deployed. This throws off your entire concept of numbers.
When you say that the alt proves canon wrong, then it is very much saying the ideas are canon. Saying the alt is the ONLY VIABLE way to fix canon suggest as much as well. Not sure where the quote came from as I looked thru the past few comments and didn't see it, so I suspect there is more to that context then shown.
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Requiem
08/30/21 04:37 AM
1.158.137.81
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You have not read Objective Raids at all? The layout of Lushan factories specifically state
Objectives Raids book No 1665
Lushann Industrials Limited is on page 165 - the workers in this section are often disciplined for leaving the large northern door open to let in cool air.
Isn't this both a HR issue by not ensuring the building has an adequate AC and an issue for its three platoon strength Lushann Security Force for not ordering adequate locks that can be tied into the security net - having someone stationed at the door - placing a camera on the door? or all three.
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You can't just take a pick up truck and ship parts from New Avalon to Hesperus II.
Did I really have to put Ha Ha after this?
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The assertations you provide in game format is inaccurate at best.
And yet when asserting a proposition this requires enough evidence and logic to convince an individual that there is a more reasonable assertion to believe when attempting to disprove it.
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Little is accurate when providing canon material. I can link to pages that suggest things that I know aren't true. It doesn't make things right.
Then state your case as to why.
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Sun Tzu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu
Yes, it may have been ‘common knowledge’ and yet he is credited with being the first writer to actually document these philosophies and to use it as a teaching device.
Thus he demonstrated a level of wisdom no one else was capable of in collating the information an documenting it for the preservation of future generations.
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education Vs propaganda
Then undertake independent research – read from other sources – watch more documentaries from around the world – at the minimum you will come to see how others see the US from around the world.
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bonds
Yes, I agree they do exist IRL – the problem is how can they be valued within the game – that is unless there is a massive amount of financial information required or the game decides to link this to an IRL system.
Or Taxes can be considered – but again as this information has never been provided the idea of understanding Capital Revenue and Capital Expenses is all but impossible.
That is unless your GM makes it up as they go along …
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Hanse Davion – Intelligence
Big MAC – Sarna.
Ghost Regiments of the DCMS
Inaccurate or incomplete information is a constant in war – and yet to be an effective Commanding General you must be willing to place your military in harms’ way.
What is envisioned in the Clan Invasion is total timidity – in in no way represents the true fighting style of Hanse.
As Takashi put it best when it comes to Hanse, That you must constantly fight to your best, lest Hanse will go straight for your jugular and rip your throat out!
The Hanse, as described here, is absent from the Invasion!
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NO intel at all was being received to even begin to understand the enemy at first
Problem is any gun camera footage – personal reports received from survivors is information and the following department must also be considered
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Intelligence_Secretariat
Then when you consider that the Clan Invasion – first wave started early March 3050; and the Invitation to the leadership Conference by Wolf’s Dragoons – Tharkad was 10 November – As the Dragoons actually dispatched people to invite people to this meeting – moths of wasted time by not sending a HPG message - And then the Outreach meeting commenced 12 January 3051.
At this point the Clans have completed their 4th wave and the Year of Peace is just over one month old!
Sorry but this once again infuriates me if any conference is to be called Wolf’s Dragoons they should have supplied all Militaries involved with an intelligence breakdown of the Clans, their culture etc, as soon as the Clans entered the Inner Sphere. By not doing so the have hampered all Inner Sphere defensive operations for the first 4 waves !
Also circa January 3051 how can all House Lords be on Outreach when at this point all militaries should be instituting a massive rest and refit program and a preparation for the resumption of the Clan war – ie a massive civil engineering program as well as a massive number of meetings and plans to get ready for the start of the next wave etc.
Thus I am greatly disappointed with timing here! First the Dragoons should explain why they took so long to confess and then apologize for not coming forward earlier (there should be a real good reason for this).
Post Meeting – they must also repent – to the front lines with them! Or they must agree to become an Oppfor Unit for all Units that are going to sent to the front.
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The Kell Hounds had spare units.
Not at this stage they didn’t! remember he begged not to be dispossessed and take a desk job … he said he would take any Frankenstein Mech ….
And mercenary Units didn’t engage in trade?
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The SL era. Massive amounts of supplies on hand with thousands of trained workers skilled in the very construction job that is required.
And how long would that take to train thousands of workers once all the documents have been accessed? It is just a question of resources.
Again not that long!
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Not sure what is going on with asking where the man that used the ghost regiments to great effect is.
The same as Hanse Davion – Theodore is also MIA from the Clan Invasion when it comes to some of the initial strategy requirements for the Invasion.
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Reread the statement?
This relates to why certain parts for certain vehicles are made in special voting locations throughout the USA – Why else to get it through government! If you put a plant in their district that provides their voters with employment then they will allow the vehicle to proceed through committee and allow it to begin to be built – you scratch my back by helping me to get re-elected and I will allow your vehicle out of committee and building can commence as per order request …. How hard was this?
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When you say that the alt proves canon wrong, then it is very much saying the ideas are canon.
Er…. No it does not!
Remember my rant – everyone has the right to make and choose what they want to do, be with who they want to be with and in what timeline they want to be … that it is not up to me or canon but the player to decide their game …. That everyone has the right to make their game as they want it to be … they have the right to change canon if they disagree with it to whatever they want it to be ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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