Requiem
10/22/22 09:31 AM
1.158.155.157
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Consider information provided
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/History
and
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/History_of_the_Succession_Wars
First Succession War – 2786
“The Successor States invaded each other with their massive armies”
Question – where did these armies from?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Amaris_Civil_War
2762 – “when Richard Cameron came of age … he began his reign by ordering all House armies disbanded, and forced to join the SLDF, with the issuance of Executive Order 156. When the Great House Lords refused, he was therefore forced to accept the refusal, but in so doing he disbanded the Star League High Council, and ruled the Human Sphere unilaterally ….
However, both …
Executive Order 34 – affirming the SLDF’s right to recruit from the member states without interference; and
Council Edict of 2650 – limiting the size of military forces that governments could muster.
Remain in effect.
Thus, it can be surmised, that between 2762 and 2779 the Great Houses were building ‘in secret’ their vast military Forces … and between 2780 and 2786 in a more open stance. In an attempt, to legitimize their claim to the First Lord’s Throne …
Thus it can be assumed that during this time there must have been a massive number of hidden military bases as well as military industrial facilities manufacturing everything required to establish their vast militaries that are used within the First Succession War (commencing 2786).
Therefore, the big question is where did all these hidden facilities by the Great Houses disappear to, in order to, create their vast militaries to fight the First Succession War come from?
How many hidden worlds should there be?
So how did all sides find and destroy all these hidden worlds to place the Inner Spere in the situation of crippling the Inner Spere’s technology for centuries to come?
2821 – The First Succession War Ground to a halt.
2830 – The Second Succession War Commenced … and was just as brutal as the first …. However given how brutal the first war was wouldn’t any sane leader gather together all remaining technology for its preservation for the next war to come? Also how many secret bases still exist? Finaly ending in 2864
The Third Succession war, however, lasted from 2866 to 3025 …. And consisted of low intensity warfare …
Question If only low intensity fighting exists for the past 150 years would this not allow all houses to undertake research to rebuild what was lost – as they now have the time to rebuild worlds and Universities on those worlds as well as proliferating technology to as many worlds as possible to increase their overall technological development – that may also require archaeology teams as well as units to seek out any lost hidden bases that were used to manufacture the war machines for the first Succession War?
Also find any repositories of technology that should have been established between the First and Second Succession Wars?
Thus by 3025 shouldn’t every House have a core of worlds whose technology is on the upswing beyond 20th century and closer to that of the Star League as they have not felt the sting of war in the past 150 years?
As any attempt by ComStar to stop this technological development would have tipped their hand and resulted in all Houses fighting ComStar?
As The FWL knows of their perfidy – as it was discovered during the Second Succession War …. And they would have taken steps to curtail them ever since – ie. they would create new worlds far from the eyes of ComStar to increase their technological development.
So where is logic in history?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
10/23/22 02:01 AM
1.158.155.157
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Where is the logic? …. Lost in a black hole …
In all reality wouldn’t logic suggest that by 3025 every Great House’s technology should be either close to Star League or even beyond this? … if you have a 150 years of low level combat confined to border skirmishing… as ComStar would never have the ability to restrict technological development on hundreds of worlds and driven by each Great House Government simultaneously (remember the every house would know what they did to the FWL during the succession war and why!)….
Thus by 3025 shouldn’t we say warships and great jump-ship navies have returned as a massive number of naval shipyards have also been established?
Also shouldn’t every house now have a massive number of new BattleMech forces etc. ….
So if you want Battletech to remain at its current level of Tech for 3025 etc wouldn’t this necessitate that the first succession war start one hundred years after the fall of the Star League and in between this period of time is an era of peace where commerce is the norm ….
Thus the reformed Era’s should be
Star league 2571 – 2780
Commerce / Peace - each house is now building their own vast military to rival that of the SLDF 2780 - 2886
Implosion of House Relations with DC declaring themselves First House and their Lord The new First Lord of a new Star League ...
First Succession War 2886 – 2921
Second Succession War 2930 – 2964
Third Succession War 2966 – 3025
Fourth Succession War 3028 – 3030
Thus this change in eras will provide a sense of legitimacy for the decline in technology for 3025 onwards …
Thoughts anyone?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
10/26/22 07:08 AM
1.158.155.157
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Please note the following …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lyran_Commonwealth_Armed_Forces
In 2784 it stood at 104 'Mech regiments, increasing to 122 two years later on the eve of the First Succession War (including 11 ex-SLDF regiments), along with 217 active WarShips.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Draconis_Combine_Mustered_Soldiery
By 2786, the number of 'Mech regiments had increased further to 161
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/AFFS
As of 2765 they were well equipped with 110 'Mech regiments, and the naval fleet had a volume of 51 vessels
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Capellan_Confederation_Armed_Forces
At the start of the Succession Wars the CCAF had nearly doubled with a standing force of 192 front-line 'Mech regiments.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Free_Worlds_League_Military
As of 2765 they were well-equipped with 95 'Mech regiments, and the naval fleet strength was listed at 47 vessels
Questions:
First, How do you consider the following to be “massive armies” when the SLDF consisted of Twenty Armies?
Second, again how vast is a army, by each Great House, required to destroy the entirety of the IS’s technological base?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force
By 2764, the SLDF had over 15,000 regiments and just as many WarShips, JumpShips and DropShips. This force was organized into 125 BattleMech divisions, 200 mechanized infantry divisions, 75 jump infantry divisions, and 50 infantry divisions, with the rest fighting as independent regiments. These formations were further combined into 20 armies divided between several military regions.
In order to inflict the damage as described by the 1st Succession War the only logical conclusion is that each Great House would require a military on par with, or if not greater than, the SLDF. As if each Great House (as described above) has only a military about twice / thrice the size utilized within the 4th Succession War. Thus they could NEVER inflict the damage required to return the IS to a 20th Century technological base – there is just not enough military units …
So again, how and where did each of their “massive” military come from in order to destroy ALL Of the IS? And how long could it take to build such a military force?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
11/03/22 06:52 AM
1.158.155.157
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Question – why are First Succession War WMDs only discussed in House Steiner: Lyran Commonwealth and not in any of the others?
Question - If every House Lord recognised that their Ship-manufacturing facilities (civilian and military) were extremely vulnerable for attack did they not move them to a more defensible position prior to the commencement of the First Succession War?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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wolfcannon
02/06/23 05:09 PM
173.218.204.120
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2762-2779
Lyran Commonwealth is limited being locked in on 3 sides, Rim World, Free Worlds and the Terran Hegemony.
However there are 2 worlds i saw (C.M.O. 26 & Burnt Rock) that are well out of the way and fairly anonymous to the outside wider Sphere. also building up planetary militia forces including noble regiments is a option. Look for in-between options. establish a explorer corp to explore the realm looking for mining potential worlds/hidden worlds.
1st Succession War
Capture significant Rim World Production centers, prevent sabotage to said facilities, including any that have stolen Hegemony data ie Caspars, Advanced production (Ferro Fiberous armor, Double Heat sinks, Endosteel Skeleton, ER weapons etc). Do not approve use of WMD on former Rim Worlds or Hegemony. Use commando raids to decapitate leadership.
Federated Suns
2762-2779
The Federated Suns netted a bounty of industrialized worlds with The Pleiades Cluster (Sterope, Merope, Electra, Maia, Taygete, Celaeno, Alcyone, Atlas, Pleione and 91 other star systems) Heavily industrialized worlds of Maia, Electra and Merope with their former and the SLDF bases and stockpiles along former Taurian military based scattered across the planets. The System is perfect to allow for defense contractors to establish new factories in a place that is not easily accessable (the cluster is supposed to be hard to naviagate). Also the Tortugan pirates can be another source to easily hide troop buildipup and factories, once the worlds are rid of those pirates.
1st Succession War
Send any advanced technology to sites in The Pleiades Cluster and Tortugan March. Have at least 2 Warship lines per class of Ships, Capture or Salvage any Hegemony vessels, Build up planetary militia with primitive battlemechs allowing modern battlemechs to go to front line units. have a training battalion of battlemechs for each world to rapidly build up or rebuild units.
Clan Wolf in Exile
328th Assault Cluster(the Lion Hearted)
Bravo Trinary
Alpha Star
Star Captain James Sword
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TechWriter22
02/19/23 09:18 PM
191.96.227.162
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You're missing a big modifier in all of this: scale.
Warfare went from army/divisional scale in Star League/Coup/1st Succession War to regimental scale to company/battalion (and sometime company/lance) scale by 3025. Instead of planets being fought over by regiments and armies, attrition had weaned down warfare to small-scale conflicts. The 3rd Succession war was "low intensity conflict" in the sense that no one had the means or ability to wage warfare on a large scale, so what you had was companies and battalions (or less) fighting over planets, and often it was armor, infantry and mechanized units doing the bulk of the fighting. This was a time when commanders were loathe to send their heaviest or most prized mechs into battle, while at the same time, having an Awesome or an Atlas lumber onto the field could cause an enemy to withdraw without firing a shot.
Consider: The Grey Death Legion's predecessor, Carlye's Commandos, was a well-respected Mercenary LANCE of light and medium mechs, led by a Phoenix Hawk. A Lance. Four mechs. Defending an entire planet. Defeated by less than a company of mostly light (Locust, Stinger, Wasps) and medium mechs, with some heavier units in a command lance, including a Marauder, which was considered to be a terrifying enemy to face.
THAT was the 3rd Succession War in a nutshell.
A historical comparison would be Europe post Roman Empire. Whereas the Roman Empire could field tens of thousands of highly trained soldiers in organized Legions against 50,000 Parthian Calvary (or more than 100,000 Celts or other Barbarian tribes), the Battle Of Agincourt in 1415 was fought with as few as 18,000 TOTAL troops. William the Conqueror took England with 5000-7000 soldiers. The Battle of Edington in 878 saw the "Great Heathen Army" of Guthrum- all of 4000 men- defeated by Alfred of Wessex, who brought the entire combined Army of England with him- at most, 6000 soldiers, but as few as 2000- to the field. The Viking Siege of Paris in 845 (The one described as being led by Ragnar Lothbrook and fictionalized in the TV series "Vikings") had only 5000 attackers.
Basically, what you saw in the Succession Wars was the same thing: Technology was ground down, knowledge was lost, and the scale of warfare, as a general rule, shrunk considerably. If you don't think it's possible to forever lose technological know-how, I present to you Greek Fire, the engines of Archimedes, and the skillset of the Mongolian Horse Archer, none of which exist today, yet all of which were vastly superior weaponry for many centuries, and would still have been effective weapons until the development of repeating rifles in the mid 19th century.
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Requiem
02/20/23 12:56 AM
1.158.193.188
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Quote:
Warfare went from army/divisional scale in Star League/Coup/1st Succession War
The issue is where did the 1st Succession War mass armies of the Successor states derive from, in order to cause the mass destruction / attrition upon every world throughout the Inner Sphere?
Remember both Executive order 34 and the Council edict of 2650 are both in effect …
Thus logic dictates that ALL future successor states must have hidden facilities to construct and maintain (logistically – in both men and consumables) Thus how were all of these found and destroyed during the 1st succession war in order to get to the attrition status of the 3rd? as if even one facility remains it will enable that successor state to rebuild over time!
Quote:
Technology was ground down, knowledge was lost, and the scale of warfare, as a general rule, shrunk considerably
Problem if even one library remains – etc on the capitol world or any of thousands hidden military manufacturing facilities – then you have the ability to reverse engineer / proliferate this technology over time so as to replace lost technology.
So how is it that EVERY repository of knowledge on EVERY world and within EVERY company / university / school / private library within every house etc was lost?
Also Greek Fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire) has now been replaced with Napalm and the Mongolian Horse Archer with Stryker Vehicles (GAU-17 Gatling Gun?) – however Yabusame still exists …. As well as Mongolian horse archery – consider the Naadam Festival.
Howlong does it take to reverse engineer lost tech – especially when each successor state would have tens of thousands of universities operating at any one time when you consider that every world is an island until itself technologically – and if you add in that every successor state utilizes a transfer of technology to “developing” worlds strategies – such is occurring currently – how long will it take to replace lost tech throughout an entire successor state? Given how fast Germany and Japan were rebuilt post WW2 not very long – especially when you are in a high tech space era!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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TechWriter22
02/20/23 05:45 PM
191.96.227.43
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The issue is where did the 1st Succession War mass armies of the Successor states derive from, in order to cause the mass destruction / attrition upon every world throughout the Inner Sphere?
- The Universe is a big place- its easy to build and hide mech factories. As well, States had begun overtaking SLDF plants and building out mech forces within months of the Amaris Coup, and then had a decade plus before things crumbled completely. The Lyrans especially basically acquired the Rim Worlds Republic Capacity- the same factories that helped the SLDF resupply- whole. Also, there was a LOT of salvage kicking around. Plus, entire SLDF units stuck around and joined houses.
However, I think you aren't grasping just how quickly the fighting goes from SLDF scale mech warfare to what is really a infantry/armor-centric battlespace. If you ground up 60% of the mechs in existence, then Kerensky leaves with 50% of what's left, and THEN you ground up 90% of what's left from that in the first year or two of the 1st Succession war, you get to "scattered lances and companies of mechs skirmishing for scraps" pretty quickly.
As for the loss of tech knowledge.....
If I was to nuke the HQ of Kleenex in 1926, wiping any technological know-how and manufacturing capability away, how long would it take you to re-invent Kleenex? What about Dupont in 1965- if they were wiped off the map, how long would it take you to reinvent someone's original IP, in this case Kevlar? You are applying global, decentralized supply theory to a universe where that doesn't exist. Universities don't hold the keys to military technology in 2750- companies do. This world acts closer to how military contractors operate- everything is a closely guarded, highly competitive secret, so removing those entities results in the loss of know-how. Universities teach theory and tactics at a military level, unless it is narratively convenient (NAIS and Banzai). Don't forget: Things like quality, damage and reliability get simplified for the Tabletop, but in-universe, things are MUCH more complex: not all medium lasers do the same damage; not all endosteel is equal, and not all SRMs carry the same charge or are as accurate as their competition. Not every Gauss Rifle slug is the same size, or fired at the same velocity.
The technology levels are NOT universal in-universe- Some companies make better products than others. Some manufacturers have bad reps, some are the gold standard. BT has done a HORRIBLE job of fleshing out that fact in its fiction/lore.
Its not that EVERY world knows how to make XL engines- maybe a dozen companies on two dozen worlds have that technology, some make good products, some make unreliable ones.... and those two dozen worlds all got nuked. For something like Endo Steel, which is made in zero-G space, simply destroying the knowledge and manufacturing ends the capability, and because these are military-tech IPs kept by a limited number of companies.... well, you can start to see how things begin to crumble- you cannot reverse engineer how to make Endo Steel from a hunk of Endo Steel.
And then there is Comstar, who go around stealing all of the remaining technological information because Ole' Jebediah Blake told them (maybe) in his tech bible (which may not have existed) to keep the dream of the Star League intact by denying everyone else access. If you didn't know, the Gray Death Legion got the Helm core out from under a Comstar Precentor who wanted to destroy it in order to protect..... something. I imagine Comstar accounts for a LOT of Lostech staying lost, or would if you could get a line developer to actually address the problem, because its the easiest explanation.
Oh, and as for replacing Greek Fire and Mongolian Horse Archers.... notice what I said about being effective until the mid 19th Century. That's 1000 years (actually 1500-2000 years, if you include the Huns and Parthians) for the horse archer, and 2500 years for Greek fire. Wipe General Dynamics and their subcontractors off the map, and see how long it takes to re-engineer an M1A2 Abrams SEP, especially the armor, electronics, and other advanced components. And remember, there are no subcontractors in Battletech- General Dynamics designs and builds EVERYTHING at one or two places.
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Requiem
02/20/23 10:48 PM
1.158.193.188
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Quote:
States had begun overtaking SLDF plants and building out mech forces within months of the Amaris Coup, and then had a decade plus before things crumbled completely.
In order to cause the mass damage of the 1st Succession War I would postulate that each successor state would have a military force (approximately) multiple times of that of the SLDF in its Golden Time prior to the Amaris Coup and during the war would have increased to multiple times even above this – as the mass damage discussed would require massive long range forces to destroy all periphery worlds as well as all successor state worlds near the periphery border …
Also the Lyrans didn’t acquire the Rim Worlds hidden military bases – they were lost to time as only a few have been found post 3050. Remember Kerensky and the SLDF went in and virtually committed genocide on the Rim Worlds prior to invading and taking back Terra ….
Also how many units joined each successor state at the end … very few when compared the number that turned tail and ran away.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/First_Succession_War
2786 – 2821 35 years of brutal warfare
If 90% of the Mechs are gone early in the war then mass warships would be used as planetary killers to wipe out all your enemies worlds … plus to find all hidden bases and destroy them at the same time … so the game is no longer about Battle Mechs … it is about Warships for the 1st Succession war!
As the US wiped out Hiroshima and Berlin – how long did it take to rebuild them?
Also remember every world builds Kleenex and has a Dupont – so how long would it take to transfer that knowledge from a world that retained that technology to all the worlds that didn’t? – as many worlds were never hit during the first succession war!
Remember every world is an island of technology to itself as inter world mass export / import supply chains do not exist – as the number of Jumpships and Dropships do not exist to supply any individual world with mass logistics!
Quote:
Universities don't hold the keys to military technology in 2750- companies do
In reality – Universities are deeply engrained in defence – stimulating new ideas and providing a diversity approach to any problems – various university affiliated research centres play a vital role in creating innovation R&D capabilities eg
As per article re the defence innovation machine …
“… the Radiation Laboratory at MIT, which worked on radar in the Second World War, was renamed Lincoln Laboratory and continued under MIT management as an FFRDC doing classified work for the Air Force. The University of California manages the nuclear bomb-design laboratories, Los Alamos and Livermore, designated national laboratories for the Atomic Energy Commission. The Navy has its own set of university-managed laboratories, often called Applied Physics Laboratories, at Johns Hopkins University, the University of Hawaii, Pennsylvania State University, the University of Texas, and the University of Washington. The armed services also set up several policy-focused FFRDCs, the best known of which is the RAND Corporation. As new issues came up over the decades, new organizations were created such as the Software Engineering Institute at Carnegie Mellon University and the Institute for Soldier Nanotechnologies at MIT.”
Any Successor State that integrates Universities into their military R&D will have a competitive advantage over the others – as well as utilizing a transfer of technology program from one world to the next – over 100 years whomever adopts these programs first will be in a position to defeat all others in the next 100 years
It is the Successor States duty to proliferate 0technology – it is not their duty to just sit on their hands and do nothing – that is just allowing a company to determine the states defence policy through technological development!
As each world is a technological island each and every world over a period of time will be able to manufacture Mechs / Jumpships / Dropships and everything else in between
Also depending on each worlds population every world should have a military force in the millions with hundreds of regular regiments and conventional fighter / bomber squadrons.
Just remember what happened to one fed suns CEO who did not listen to his first prince – pity he did not last long in an infantry squad!
Quote:
The technology levels are NOT universal in-universe- Some companies make better products than others … and … Its not that EVERY world knows how to make XL engines- maybe a dozen companies on two dozen worlds have that technology
What happens if you copy and paste that company from one world to all worlds within a successor state?
TPTB have a horrible idea as to what technological development means.
You can begin to see how technology is returned to every world within a successor state – it just takes a leader with a little bit of forethought.
As for COMSTAR how are they going to sabotage a successor state wide policy? Just one slip up and it will be all over for them … nationalising Comstar would be fun!
WW2 – Daimler-Benz and MAN were tasked with designing German tanks …. Now Krauss-Maffei Wegmann how long did it take from complete destruction to one of the most advanced tanks on the field?
Just because one company is lost does stop production – as every world should have their own conventional arms manufacturing facilities and not as is prescribed by canons at one or two places as how does many worlds manufacture their own civilian vehicles for their vast populations?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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TechWriter22
02/21/23 12:07 AM
154.16.192.9
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So, are you a troll, or are you just obtuse for fun?
1) You're completely ignoring what I'm saying, and your points make no coherent sense as a response- just randomly spitting examples out-of-context doesn't provide you with a point. I say that in this fictional universe, universities do not control military technological innovation, corporations do; your response is the historical example of the RAND Corp and Manhattan Project, which completely ignore that, in this fictional universe, things are different. You seem to lack a grasp of the concepts that I'm saying, as well as not having a grasp of the lore- for example, you say that no mechs = warships, completely ignoring the fact that most warships- and the shipyards that built them- were destroyed in the Amaris coup and Chieftain, and the rest in the opening days of the 1st Succession War. Also, the secret bases in the deep Periphery are different from the standard industrial capacity of the Rim Worlds Republic, which would have included dozens of production lines, and were (mostly) spared by SLDF forces to be used in resupplying the Invasion force.
2) You are applying current and historical points to in-universe events even though they have no relevance to the events contained in the lore, and, again, you have simply ignored the fact that this fictional universe is not designed on the same principles of the real-world and historical 20th and 21st century. You also do not seem to understand how a military-industrial complex works both in theory and practice, nor the degree to which it controls procurement, production and innovation.
3) Battletech isn't real- you may want to take some time to understand that. Nor was/is it designed by people who have a serious grasp on history, politics, economic policy, or even security studies. They're mostly tabletop gamers, not military specialists, and I doubt any of them have any actual experience with military entities, read something as simple as a Jane's guide or a text on the origins of specific conflicts, let alone more cerebral works like "The Art of Attack" or "The Accidental Guerilla".
That means mistakes will be made.
Regardless, simply just moving forward blindly with random erroneous points that ignore or selectively utilize what others are saying, and perpetuating that debate regardless of whether or not what you are saying is relevant does nothing for the conversation and, I can see why no one on here really wants to engage you; if you think you're winning an argument, you could not be more mistaken.
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Requiem
02/21/23 04:32 AM
1.158.193.188
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Upon reading my posts it becomes crystal clear as to my beliefs as to the social and historical development of this game ….
That said … have you read in-depth as to the history provided and observed the multitude of situations that make absolutely no sense whatsoever ….
From the star league standardising all education in every great house … how much information is ever provided … minimalism at best
Quote:
universities do not control military technological innovation
First House books …
DC – during the star League – Dr. Paul Edwards – Knowledge shall be sought throughout the galaxy in order to promote the welfare of the DC (as long as it did not interfere with the dictum honorarium / society in general …. Post star league education becomes a means of weedng out people / indoctrination only
Point - Nolus Archipelagus Institute of Science – military science and technology are the focus of education – however this world does not exist so what happens to this university does it also still exist?
FS – has only 50 Universities for trillions of people – so how many Drs / lawyers / engineers etc are actually within the FS at any one time and it appears as though each university is specialized to one field?
NAIS - Professor Sabina - research focus on military engineering
Team Banzai - from Battlemechs to children's toys
CC – has only one university – the Sian University (formed in 2888 so who knows how people were educated prior to this!) Where as the only military quasi uni is on Tikonov – The Capellan Science Foundation - with large amounts of manpower and monetary support various teams at csf are seeking means to improve both the offensive and defensive capabilities of the Capellan armed forces.
So can anyone explain how Liao got on when the FS took this world from them? or how NAIS / FS benefitted from all of CC's military and civilian R&D?
LC – Research Universities – Achon Katrina pays huge sums to facilities embarking on scientific research (also sponsored by corporations in an effort to find the gifted) - official efforts to rebuild the Lyran education system emphasize rediscovering lost technologies particularly in the military and computer sciences
Circa 3050 they have only 5 major universities
FWL – only discusses business and theatrical circa so it is anyone’s guess as to what other and where they were located
and yet the first house books say otherwise!
Question how is society expected to continue when the majority of society is one step above illiterate?
Also if you take these worlds away from your enemy how are they supposed to function without a higher education program?
Also if all Houses have minimal education facilities can someone explain how many Hospitals staffed by Drs exist as well as all other positions that require a higher education ?
So my assertion stands – first House to maximise their education wins!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/21/23 07:26 AM)
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ghostrider
02/21/23 12:45 PM
45.51.181.83
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As Requiem is ignored, there may be a few things that might mirror some comments, so please bare with it.
The games backstory and the mechanics don't mix well. It has been said in the past, that the concept of something like AC ammo not being the same size, yet all grouped into just say AC 20 ammo. As the game said in an older book, the AC 20 runs from 185 to 200 MM ammo. But to avoid making the game a book keeping system, they just say all of the AC 20 ammo is the same. Even the Cannon would be different from different manufacturers, but keeping it simple changes things.
The idea that trade secrets are spread around so everyone can see them is but one issue discussing things with a few people. Items that are trade secrets are kept in as few places as possible, to avoid anyone just getting them and using them to undercut the owners of them. So when the HQ of a company gets wiped out, it is likely that information would be wiped out as well. Though some times, that information is in a secret vault somewhere else, and when that gets wiped out, it is gone. There will not be copies of it laying around all over the place.
The point of not knowing what is located where is valid. Some think that everyone knows were everything is. There are facilities working that the government doesn't know about in the game. Yet this same issue in argued that you can't find a secret ship yard in another system. If something is suspected, it is easier to find a shipyard, then a single factory. But if the government knew where everything was, then they wouldn't have issues with pirates and rebels. They would know where they are.
As a side note here, it was explained to me why the game doesn't function like real world. There would be no game if things went like the real world. A dropship landing, would become the target for everything that could reach it, even as it was landing. So that is why orbital capital weapons needed to remain dead.
No ground forces to attack with means no game.
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TechWriter22
02/21/23 02:43 PM
154.16.192.51
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Makes sense to me; the biggest point I have taken from this is that there is an extremely valuable "ignore" feature.
I'm new here, but I do wonder what the threshold is for "ban due to spam".
I've spent 30+ years reading and interacting with this fictional funland of stompy murder robots, and I don't think I have ever encountered a more unremittent vomiting of flawed thinking than I did by engaging in a note about scale of conflicts.
I probably should have read previous posts first. :-D
BTW: I'm a big proponent of the need for some sort of hashing out of "in-universe" calibres and velocities of shells, propellant amounts and explosive loads of missiles, and the overall plot distribution of quality, reliability and maintenance curves of weapon lines and manufacturers. Is the Kali Yama Big Bore better than the Mech Hunter AC? Which flamers burn the hottest and have the longest jets? Which PPCs are the easiest to repair? blah blah blah. If there are folks playing with this I would love to help.
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ghostrider
02/21/23 06:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is room for those that want all the bells and whistles. But the stock game is meant for normal people to play big stompy mechs. The RPG can be used more for getting into the game with variety. The issue is the board game and RPG have issues when tried to be used together.
One of the biggest complaints about things like AC shells is when the clan tech is compared to IS advanced tech. Supposedly the ammunition is the same for both clan and IS, yet the clan weapons allow their ammo to do things the IS can't. Further range for instance in all the AC varieties. LRMs that can reach the 21 hex range, while being fired on a flatter arc, which is one of the 'reasons' given for the lack of minimum range for them.
Targeting systems can be said on why the AC rounds go further, but there is no extended range category for shots beyond long, in ground combat. It isn't like the shells just fall to the ground.
And if you read the original description of the AC cannons, they were supposed to be burst fire of 3 to 5 rounds. Yet the ultra versions have an issue hitting with the second set, and is only possible if the first volley hits. You miss volley one and no chance of volley 2 hitting.
The original PPCs couldn't focus on things under the 3 hex minimum, yet the ER version does this without a problem.
This is the same issue with ER lasers. No added weight, to get extended ranges.
I will say, I dislike some of the 'newer' weapons they came out with, such as the mech blazer. From what I have seen of it, there is little difference between having 2 lasers and this weapon. And I will repeat, the Battle Masters Rules is the last rule book I have. So my information is kind of old.
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Requiem
02/21/23 08:52 PM
1.158.193.188
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As Requiem is ignored
Placed into Coventry for the crime of believing in freedom of speech / as well as realism / understanding metaphors – in alt universes are superior to ‘canon dogma’.
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The idea that trade secrets are spread around so everyone can see them is but one issue
Fallacy – Government’s executive branch ordering subsidiary companies / facilities to be established on multiple worlds, to promote realm security and social / economic development in no way affects trade secrets.
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Items that are trade secrets are kept in as few places as possible, to avoid anyone just getting them and using them to undercut the owners of them
How? When interplanetary trade only exists only for small luxury goods – and trade secretes still remain with the corporation.
Example – a certain fast-food chain that is now located within multiple countries around the world – Same principle, you are just franchising the parent company upon multiple worlds to ensure the security of the realm / social welfare of the realm and also has a nasty by-product of also increasing profits.
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So when the HQ of a company gets wiped out, it is likely that information would be wiped out as well
And
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Though some-times, that information is in a secret vault somewhere else, and when that gets wiped out, it is gone. There will not be copies of it laying around all over the place.
Isn’t this dependent upon its size (number of copies) and location(s)? One, highly probable – thousands upon thousands of worlds (as well as within information vaults maintained within hidden space stations) not so much.
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The point of not knowing what is located where is valid.
Obliviousness
Future generations do not have the opportunity to hear from past generations as to their experiences / knowledge – n an age with no internet, once you lose touch with a memory record it might actually be lost forever -however the reverse is also true - the data must be in the General Staff Office somewhere – has it been organized as unused things are forgotten.
Can their librarians actually search for the information? Prioritization hierarchies are a reality of bureaucracy.
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But if the government knew where everything was, then they wouldn't have issues with pirates and rebels. They would know where they are.
Isn’t it by their nature that secret societies will attempt to be and remain secret from the government / society they are attempting to subvert / use for their own ends?
Thus it is the requirement of law agencies to hunt them.
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A dropship landing, would become the target for everything that could reach it, even as it was landing. So that is why orbital capital weapons needed to remain dead.
And
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No ground forces to attack with means no game.
Kerensky’s invasion of Terra against Amaris
The Clan’s invasion of Lutharin
The Clan’s invasion of Camelot Command
Victor’s invasion of Terra during the Jihad
Capital weapons didn’t stop the dropships during these invasions so why should we expect that they will stop all future invasions?
Personally it is my belief they should remain – LAM units can then be used for commando strikes against these capital weapons as pathfinder units – sounds like fun to me!
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I have ever encountered a more unremittent vomiting of flawed thinking than I did by engaging in a note about scale of conflicts.
How am I expected reply to this?
And yet no reply as to the proven relationships between universities and military R&D.
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AC shells Lasers PPCs etc
How does this relate to the Succession Wars?
Is there issues with regards to armaments factories and perhaps trade secrets so that a certain type can only be made on one specific world for one specific company as they are a trade secret?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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TechWriter22
02/22/23 02:41 PM
154.16.192.96
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@ghostrider
(That ignore feature works really well)
See, I'm not much of a TT/RPG/Rulebook guy; I grew up on the novels and videogames, and my early assumption was that the videogames grew out of the basic idea of the novels, and just built them out (in fairness, I believe this was around 1992). When I stumbled across the sourcebooks in a hobby store while looking for tank models, my head exploded, because it opened up an entire new world of information to complement the novels/videogames, but that is as far as I've delved into TT, other than buying the TT game for the minis. Even my designs, while they have gamesheets, are all built as "What could these do "in-universe"?". So, while I have a good understanding of the limitations of the game rules, they generally come a distant second to "what would X weapon do if I "Last Action Hero"'d (That's a Schwarzenegger action movie where a kid gets transported into a movie, for you troglodytes) into the universe, and got to watch.
So, let's take a look at the variable factors in BT's general weaponry that would vary by manufacturer:
Autocannon: You are looking at calibre, propellant, muzzle velocity, barrel length, warhead type and load. The warhead type will be a HUGE factor (there should be A LOT of these in-universe, but they've been criminally scaled down for the TT- Roguetech's BT ammo options only scratch the surface, and it is still a HUGE improvement). Calibre differences will play a role too, as larger calibres deal more damage, generally require longer barrels (to focus the energy downrange) and more propellant for greater velocity in order to achieve range, while the same shell in a shorter barrel will come out screaming (and more deadly), but have a much shorter range. In general, more propellant = less warhead load/less damage.
Reloading is done via an autoloader, which is also a variable. I know its been debated ad nauseum, but I like my autocannons to fire like a tank shell- how long reload takes depends on the inner mechanics of the autoloader, and not all autoloaders are created equal. So, while a light AC/2 Shell may autoload quickly, a 200+mm AC/20 Shell is much heavier and bulkier, and therefore will autoload more slowly, which affects your rounds per minute. So, while an AC/2 may fire 30 rds/min, an AC/20 may only fire 4 rounds/min
The Ultra goofiness is a puzzle, but the best I can come up with is that its a specially designed loader that essentially loads 1 shell in the chamber, and another in a sub-chamber, so the reload turnover is dramatically reduced. That would explain why if the first one misses, the second- hot on its heels- would also miss.
Don't get my started on Rotary AC BS, because a shell that size cannot be speed-loaded to the point where you can run that sort of rotational velocity- its a live shell with an active warhead, NOT a bullet, and you are in a moving monstrosity that is taking fire. A single mis-alignment would set off the shells in the loader. Its not realistic in any manner for a autocannon shell to be fired like a Gatling Gun. Now, a rotary gun that fires a shell significantly faster is possible, but it would be more of a "fire/click/fire/click/fire/click" at 0.5/1.5 second reload time than the "BRRRRP" its portrayed as. However, could you realistically make a large calibre anti-mech rotary machine gun that fires, say a 0.75 calibre armor piercing depleted uranium bullet at 8-10000 rounds per minute? Sure- very light damage that becomes very heavy damage if it remains concentrated for long enough? definitely. I'm not sure where you would put all of the ammo, but it would make an amazing infantry and light mech killer, especially in the tight confines of a city.
Gauss Rifle: They're essentially just a solid autocannon shell, fired at a much higher speed, and rely on that speed to inflict damage. So, muzzle velocity and warhead size make all of the difference, and, since the Gauss is basically a futuristic rail gun, charged output is the primary velocity factor. The bigger/faster the shell, the more damage it does. In general, bigger shells travel less distance then smaller, because more velocity = more charge from the weapon, and eventually you reach the max charge of the gun (which would be an individual weapon make factor- certain companies would make better coils, which would naturally increase range). So, if a Gauss rifle does "15" damage in TT, a more realistic range would 12-18, depending on the type of Gauss. So, basically, in-universe, you are still looking at a round carving off (crushing?) around a ton of armor, but maybe a low quality gun doesn't pull the arm off of Panther (and maybe the PPC stays firing), while a high quality gun shears it right off. The Silver Bullet is just a shotgun shell of tiny Gauss Rifles.
LRMs and SRMs: Here is where it gets fun. Propellant, guidance and fire control systems, payload type, warhead size and type, number of missles, etc etc. All of these things are simplified in TT, but, in-universe, ALL of these things would vary widely based on the make/model of missile. You're seeing something similar right now in Ukraine, where antiquated Russian armaments are failing to do what they were supposed to do, because they're old, not well-maintained, and, generally, poorly made. Contrast that to the Patriot missile defence system, a 40+ year old system that was originally very well made, but has also seen countless improvements, refits, and expansions to keep it modern.
So, your propellant makes up your effective range (LRMs have more, SRMs have less), and your warhead, which (in a world where SRMs and LRMs are the same size) is normally inverse to your propellant amount- SRMs hit harder, but have a shorter range. In reality, if the guidance is reliable, it's the missile itself that matters: the MRM launchers that can fire long or short is actually the more realistic weapon; the deciding factor will be how well the guidance holds up over longer distances. Garbage guidance systems will lose accuracy over a longer distance, while better systems will hold up. Think of Artemis FCS as basically an IFF seeking missile- it locks onto a mech, and "follows" it to target.
Free fire LRM/SRMs and such are basically rockets: they go in a straight line towards a target- if the target is there, boom. If not, they just keep going until they hit something else or run out of propellant. Interesting question though: if a missile "soft lands" and doesn't explode, can a mech stepping/falling on it set it off? Because, its still live.
Thunder/Inferno/etc are just different payloads with different jobs. Follow-the-leader is just different guidance systems (which means some models will be good, and some will suck).
PPCs: Basically, they follow the same concepts as a Gauss rifle, but particles: How much charge, how big is the barrel/muzzle, how long is the barrel to focus the charge (shorter = more damage, but less range and accuracy).
Lasers: The most complicated for last.
You have the obvious:
1) How big is the beam (general, but inadequate classes of small/medium/large. it would be better if they were classes in mm like autocannons, for example, a 200mm Large laser, which would generally inflict more damage than a 175mm large laser). Back in the day, in fiction, the Sunglow Type 2 Large laser on the Thunderbolt was a massive barreled weapon that did considerably more damage than a standard large laser because it was bigger, better and more powerful than its competitors, but that idea has essentially disappeared.
2) How good is the power source vs how long is the barrel (normal vs extended range)
Then, a bit more complicated:
3) How good are the reflectors at focusing the beam (how powerful is the laser/how much damage will it do)
4) How long can the capacitors hold output (how long will the beam last)
Lastly, weird tech stuff:
5) Are there any fancy add-ons to the output- pulse cut-outs, for example
Heavy lasers are just bigger beams with a stronger power source and a more focused reflector. Improved lasers are just better at some or all of #3 and #4. The Clans did all of that stuff in a lighter box than the IS, and had did it with a quality of component (almost) unheard of in the IS, hence the better ranges.
TL;DR: All of those factors influence weapons, and different manufacturers will all vary- sometimes dramatically- in how well they make a weapon. Because everything is standardized, you never see it.
Catalyst peeps, if you ever decide to take a look at this for fiction and lore, let's have a chat, because while you make good TT rules, I think you lack the knowledge of this more advanced aspect of the system- stompy murder robot manufacturers have a quality spectrum, and so do their weapons contractors. Because of that, the in-universe gets less believable the deeper you go, because it makes less and less sense the more books/lore you publish and the more new weapons you create. It also messes with mech design, because what is the point of being able to choose a weapons manufacturer, or a model, or Comm gear, or.... anything, really if its all the same?
Edited by TechWriter22 (02/22/23 03:10 PM)
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TechWriter22
02/22/23 03:08 PM
154.16.192.96
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As a side note here, it was explained to me why the game doesn't function like real world. There would be no game if things went like the real world. A dropship landing, would become the target for everything that could reach it, even as it was landing. So that is why orbital capital weapons needed to remain dead. No ground forces to attack with means no game.
I have always seen this excuse as the best proof that the people that run Battletech- not just the current ones, but essentially ALL of the developers- have no real knowledge of military history, weapon development, security studies, warfare tactics, etc. on a macro level. They're just TT guys who might have some highschool history that they thought was cool, and took some of the events and used them to inspire events and characters in the game (which I always thought was an inspired choice, because it created a character development blueprint that made things believable; I think the move away from that model is one of the reasons that, lore-wise, basically everything since Bulldog has been an exercise in poor line development and decision making.
Forever, people have been creating the next big weapon, and every time someone does, someone else finds a way to counter it. That's basically how warfare works. Sometimes, it takes a lot of trying- and a lot of death- to figure out how (WWI), and other times, it just takes a little ingenuity (Drones). The US Napalms and flattens your country, and wrecks you in every pitched battle? Go underground, work at night, and separate into small-unit infiltration groups. Harass the enemy paper-cut by paper-cut until they lose the will to fight. History is filled with sides having "superior weaponry" and still losing, because someone found a way around it.
It's lazy line development, straight up- take the time to devise a way to counter orbital bombardment, don't just write a giant piece of the lore out because you lack the imagination/knowledge to come up with a viable solution.
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Karagin
02/22/23 11:48 PM
38.48.39.237
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The game is about mechs; those were the focus, and everything else was and is secondary. We all understand that part.
And I agree, it doesn't mean the rest is tossed just to focus on the mechs. I am not a fan of four mechs defending an entire planet and winning. Never made sense even back in the hay day of the game in the 80s and 90s.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/23/23 03:10 AM
45.51.181.83
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The thing is the focus on those 4 mechs. It sounds like nothing else is on world to help guard it. Militia with infantry and vehicles would be there. But few are willing to play with vehicles, especially when facing mechs.
This is not saying all players would avoid or hate it, just most would prefer stompy mechs.
As vehicles are supposed to be so much more numerous, it would make sense that a lot of worlds are guarded mainly by them.
Now add in why the developers want to keep vehicles nerfed, and you can see the answer. One on one, a vehicle is more likely going to lose in a straight up fight. This is not always true, as tonnage and weapon loads play a huge part as well as terrain. But a well set up defending force of vehicles can destroy the same number of mechs, sometimes even more.
And this isn't including the pillboxes and wall turrets that are supposed to be helping hold back the mechs.
Yes, it is silly to expect 4 mechs to hold a world.
That should never be the only defenders in the game. Well for a world that isn't a void world.
I always like the idea of destroying an invader before they hit the atmosphere. But when you do that, there is no ground combat. Funny that this idea is used for ground combat. Strike at the enemy and don't let them even fire back...
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Karagin
02/23/23 09:10 AM
38.48.39.237
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Again, one on one a mech should lose vs another mech. It's a fight; something will lose. No fight is going to be fair, and that is the issue many players have in the game. The game states it's a simulation of tactical combat. Note the word tactical, not gladiatorial combat. Yet many treat it as gladiatorial combat all the time, or they are a power game, aka win at the expense of fun. I have said it before. I can bet mechs with vehicles; it's not hard to do. In the same way, one can use terrain to win against the power gamers.
I have seen many of you decry the Clans and claim you need 2 to 1 odds to beat them; I call that crap, but let's look at that here. Since vehicles are supposed to outnumber mechs in the BT universe, should they not be used in mass to take them on? On you have a lance of mechs? Well, here are my two lances of vehicles. And so on.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/23/23 02:36 PM
1.158.193.188
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Rule 8 Avoid “Thread-Jacking” … and ask if necessary, a Moderator to step in.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/23/23 05:33 PM
45.51.181.83
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The clans biggest issue is the plot armor they had during the invasion and even afterwards. Yes, the mechs are much better, as range and even damage per hit is greater. The skills being a factor as well.
The exception of having hot drops directly on where the IS troops were, the IS had home field advantages that weren't taken into account. Comstar sold out a lot of things, but when the defenders knew they could strike from places, and the return fire couldn't do much, wasn't figured in. The elementals, while being a pain, were not invincible. But the game makes it sound like they were ghosts, and could move up to mechs without ever being spotted. Except when the plot armor said they were.
Most battles seemed to have the IS stricken with fear, that was so bad, they didn't bother moving. Not saying some wouldn't be soiling their seats, but this is a bit much. The issue is the overwhelming vehicle issue was never really factored in from what was implied. All stories dealing with vehicles is the elementals could jump on them without anyone seeing them until it was too late, and the elementals basically were in the vehicles with the crew.
Not even the best infantry, without the easily detected armor, couldn't do that. It seems the IS could detect stealth armor easier then an elemental.
The basic lack of aerofighters meant the defenders VTOLS ruled the skies. Nothing in the stories of the invasion suggested the clans targeted them first. So the VTOLS would be in the fight. Yes, they were not ones to take out assault mechs on their own, but removing armor, harassing the mechs, as well as taking down, or even reporting where the elementals were, would be enough. Even spotting for IDF would have helped a bit. They could see for a long ways, so didn't even have to be in firing range to do the spotting.
Now unless Comstar's ROM had cut land lines, there would still be active coms, even when the ecm on the clanners mechs were running full power. So the hunting lodge would very well report in that something unknown was moving thru the woods near them. So the basic everyone in sight would call in for artillery strikes, making sure the land battles didn't happen would be the case. I know they had to tone this down to progress a story, but too much of it was removed.
This is the same thing with the wars before the clans as well. Only when the plot needed it, did anyone call in where unknown forces were at. The main story was an FWL world, that was a tourist destination. It foiled an attack on the world as the tourists were calling in the sightings. But nothing more.
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TechWriter22
02/23/23 05:36 PM
191.96.227.154
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I always assumed that every planet had a small local militia- infantry and some lighter mechanized armor- to assist in civil emergencies, maintain order if necessary, etc.
What always bothered me is that Thunder Rift had a massive section dedicated to showing how vehicles and infantry could be effective against mechs in city warfare, and Bill Keith has gone back to the concept of mechanized infantry warfare several times. It may not be a popular thing to play, but, well-written, it CAN be an interesting and essential element of the lore.
I agree with you WRT "tactical" being missing in the game. While I get that there is a desire to see mechs clash and bang, I always thought Solaris was written into the game for exactly that purpose- so people could get their 1v1/4v4 gladiator deathmatch fix whilst the main game/line chugged along doing actual tactical combat, even if the line development had created a scenario where typically a lance/company of mechs would anchor a larger force of infantry/armor. The HBS game (with Roguetech, at least) does a decent job of allowing you to utilize combined arms (well, vehicles and battle armor) somewhat, but it could easily be improved upon.
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ghostrider
02/23/23 10:24 PM
45.51.181.83
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Tactics seems to be missing a lot in the game. But then that depends on the gaming group you are playing with. Most like the physical combat portion, and just want to headbutt each other. That style removes any real chance of using tactics. Getting behind someone due to a good initiative roll is the main tactics they seem to use. If you lose, you move as best as you can to avoid the punch/kick in the back side.
With vehicles, you tend to have them set up in one place, and not move them like you do a mech. That is unless you have hover craft.
The group I played with, didn't use VTOLS really. Rotor hits removed them quickly. Even using vehicles other then the demolisher or Shriek PPC carrier was unusual. The one exception was someone that loved his 55 ton machine gunner mech. He would absolutely move it dead last. 18 MGs looking for that one killer crit.
Otherwise, they were all or nothing fights.
It finally went down to someone using the same type of tactic back on them, using small lasers. Even without a crit, they melted the side they were facing down, and removed that mech. After that, the guy didn't want to play anymore.
I would never have seen the use of the mech, if the others had actually played something other then the 100 ton mechs armed like the king crab. Large ACs with little need for long range weapons.
This is also a problem when facing the clans, if the players use the clan mechs the way they are portraited in the books. The clanners not running up to physical combat throws most of the head banger pilots off their game. Simply move back as the others run to take them down. 4 to 5 rounds of being shot without a chance to return fire, tends to cause people to hate the clans.
Though not sure if the developers actually tried to abuse the rules, but the targeting computer paired with large pulse lasers, all clan versions, to target the head, seemed to remain in the game for longer then it should have. That combo should have been nerfed before the clantech came out. Back when it was only a +1 to do this attack, as the original pulse bonus was allowed with the called shot. For other parts, it was even more likely to hit.
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Karagin
02/24/23 12:12 AM
38.48.39.237
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Tactics are missing in the game, period. So authors don't even try to write the battles with any tactical aptitude at all. Instead, they are written like they watched a WWF/WWE match and swapped the wrestlers with mechs. No pilot is going to close with another mech. They will move to use terrain to get shots that cripple or kill their opponent, not this let me get in there and close to the point that I can duke it out. That is complete silliness, all set up for word count to get more money, and honestly shows a lack of creative thinking.
Also, books (novels) should not follow the game rules; those are two separate things. The novels are there to drive the story and give us the background of the universe. They tell us about the characters and adventures. The sourcebooks fill in the details and flesh out things. The tactical tabletop game (not the sill computer games) gives us a chance to fight out our battles set in the BT universe. Or we can run the scenarios from the different scenario packs to see if we can pull off a win where the heroes lost.
Each of the Successions Wars gives us a canvas to work in. For the first two, we should see large-scale attacks across whole sectors of each House border. Worlds being fought over, so falling, others being contested for decades before falling if not still contested when the next Succession Wars flares up.
By the time of the Third Succession War, we should see less of the large-scale operations in that whole sectors are hit, but we would not see just a lance of mechs and a company of vehicles hit a world. Again look at our own planet and tell me how that force will control the whole planet; it's not.
By the time of the Fourth War and the Clan Invasion the Inner Sphere should be an old pro at combined arms and planetary warfare where they can hold their own against the Clans even with the better weapons. They know the terrain, their mechs, and other systems and that the planet is more significant enough to stay hidden on. Plus, each world captured means it has to be garrisoned. That means that the invaders need to leave a force behind that can hold the planet.
Lots of things fail the sniff test, but going back to a couple of things, as I said, I have seen folks running Inner Sphere tech, aka 3025 forces, take out Clan stuff with need this crazy ratio of 2:1 that somehow has become the default or needing to use BV as a crutch. I have also seen folks running IS tech 3025/3050 stuff w/vehicles maul a Clan forces of equal weight and skill set. Players on both sides were/are long-term players. Which has to bring up the question, what version of the game are people playing?
Are many coming to the tabletop/board game from the video game side and finding out that different computer/video games give a poor showing of the BT universe and game setting? Or have they not been taught the game's rules and weapons correctly?
I could say that many of us had only the 3025 tech, a good chunk of time to learn inside and out, so that might be why we can get more of things. Those that were around in the early 90s when the Clans showed up and things like TRO2750 came got to learn the ins and outs of stuff really don't see or grasp why some of the new players need the fancy toys to win or need BV system to get a fair game. This is only my opinion on things, but it's formed based on what I have seen and still see.
We all know vehicles are nerfed. We know the game won't ever fix that. Many of us have fought that argument and are either ignored or shouted down by all owners of the game. A lot of the "new" tech makes things really silly in the game as it it is. Like quirks, Those things should be over in the Roleplaying side of the game/universe not the boardgame side. Again my opinion.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/24/23 12:10 PM
45.51.181.83
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The novels not following the rules is part of why people have problems playing the game.
They finally get into playing the game, only to find out the maneuvers in the novels don't actually work. A normal mech does a flip in the air, and uses it jets to avoid touching the ground, then flies off is a big one. The ability to crank back your torso to give your arms more of a firing arc is yet another one.
I will say, it is rare that the novels do have physical contact in them. This mainly is done when units are out of ammo, and are badly overheating, yet can't withdraw. The real exception are those units that have the hatchets and such. But then they were made to do so.
I agree with the fact that few, if any, pilots would not try using cover to avoid damage to their mechs. Even with the 'revival' of industries, repairing damage is a pain, as well as the off chance you lose your unit because of the damage. Bad die rolls, when using repair rules, can slowly destroy a unit. Losing armor in places can really screw up a unit. An Urbanmech that loses it's right arm is basically useless, unless a full refit is done. And this doesn't cover having the unit destroyed, making a pilot dispossessed.
I can see where some fights won't happen if everyone is trying to stick to cover, as some portions of a few maps don't give you the option to get into cover during an advance.
The freedom of players moving each unit on their own, might be a problem with tactics as well. Most people don't have a set pattern of movement or firing set up. They react to what the last person has done. Which is nice, as it opens up the ability to take out a unit, but if the entire 'lance' is to move up 4 hexes, and turn right in formation, well, that just isn't happening. Having someone move into a spotting position, and getting someone in the group to actually do it, is a completely different thing.
I can guarantee a lot of people get into the game after playing the video games, or even reading a novel. The old Mechwarrior games had the issue of 'shields'. I know it was to help players get used to maneuvering and firing, but it does screw with the board game. I haven't really seen ammo explosions from overheating, in the older games either.
The HBS game is nice, but the way damage is done, throws off new players. An AC 20 hitting any part of a light mech, tends to remove that section. Yet, this in not always the case in the HBS game. So people get upset when their favorite light mech gets wiped out with a single volley of shots, even from another light mech.
I dislike quirks, as the allow for you to make a unit better with nothing more then saying it is. Only a few mechs had quirks before they were added in the game, but most didn't bother with them, unless they were good ones. The Javelin being top heavy, or the Guillotine having the issue with the power cable to the arm laser. Those are ignored. Yet I can make a munchy mech using quirks, such as better targeting on a pulse/TC unit.
If you don't use repair rules, how is hard to maintain going to do anything?
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Karagin
02/24/23 02:37 PM
38.48.39.237
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Ghostrider, the novels SHOULD NOT be following the rules of the table top game. They are NOT part of that. They are the adventure part of the setting. Do you recall the movie DOOM? The one based on the video game? Where they tried to copy the feel of the video game? No one liked that at all.
The novels have a mix of styles, as i said, some show battles as ranged warfare, those are few, the majority have our heroes doing stupid things like getting into close ranges and trying to slug it out. I don't care how good the hero thinks they are, they won't be doing dumb every time. Yet depending on the author that's what we see.
Most people don't know tactics. They don't understand how to keep a unit in a bounding overwatch or how to move and adjust things so as not to leave a single unit at the mercy of the other side. Many don't understand how to use the trees and hills to screen and force the other player to move where you want them. Like in chess, you need to be thinking a couple of turns ahead, not reacting to the moment.
I know a lot of people got into Battletech from the video games. I have seen that first hand, and I have also seen many of them learn real fast that the video games SUCK since they do not reflect the actual true rules of the game at all. The video games set up their own rules, so as to turn things into a First Person Shooter, the plot and everything else is a distant third.
The video games teach folks bad habits that don't translate over to the tabletop game, the whole rush out to the middle of the board, and "alpha" strike is a video game move that has come over to the tabletop game more so since MechWarrior 2 days. Since the computer/video game doesn't treat heat the same way and shut the mechs down fully. Thus many are upset that they can't move away from return fire after overheating when they do their alpha strike crap. But wait, when they discover they can build their own mechs, you see the power gamer side get munchkin out to the max of enough heat sinks to fire and move no matter what.
The computer/video games didn't follow any of the rules of the Battletech game; they each had their own formulas for range, damage, heat, etc...none of which translated to the tabletop game. I personally believe that the poor handling of these versions has done more damage to the tabletop game since it has forced needless rule changes to accommodate players brought over for what is nothing more than an FPS.
The only mech that had a listed quirk in an official FASA book was the Javelin, and most ignored it. The rest of the stuff was fluff comments that had no bearing on the play of the game at all. Fluff was just that, part of the character of the mech and its background set in the universe. Something you would likely see mentioned in the novels, maybe, or the players could use in the RPG side if they wanted extra little details.
Which version of the repair rules? From which book?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/24/23 05:48 PM
45.51.181.83
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It doesn't matter which rule book, as hard to maintain has to have players using the repair system to bother with it. If they don't use the repair part of the rules, the hard to maintain means nothing more then extra space wasted on the stats sheet.
I have played most of the FPS video games put out, and so far, the only one that comes close to dealing with obstacles in the field has been mechwarrior 5. Not that it bothers the enemy hitting you, but I have had more then a few shots hit trees, removing those shots, especially LRM 20s from going anywhere. Chain reaction with them. Whole pack gone. The lasers aren't affected much by them.
The Guillotine had a quirk that the laser arm would bind on the power cable to the weapon, and an experienced warrior knew to lower then arm and try again, while most others would pull the power cable apart by forcing the arm. Not that anything was said about it, other then statements. I want to say there was another mech that had an issue, but can't think of it.
The novels is a big reason why people think the fusion engines blow up. It makes for excitement in the story, but messes with gameplay. Pilots intentionally overheating their mechs to blow up has been in a few stories.
The adventure pack, the Fox's Teeth, had mechs crawling in order to escape the guns of a dropship. And in the book of the clans attack on Luthien, Shin got his Phoenix Hawk on the stubs of his legs and left arm, in order to fire the large laser.
How much damage does a laser do what it grazes the pauldron on a mech? What is the damage of an AC that explodes when the enemy crushes the barrel as it fires? Does it affect both units or just the firing one?
The idea of a non jumping mech dropping from a dropship from 3+ hexes above the ground doesn't damage a mech, but a DFA attack can wipe out a mechs legs doing the same height drop.
Even stories of horizontal uses of jump jets, to ram an enemy when the unit can't even stand up.
Yes, novels need to be entertaining. But there are some points that need to stick with the game rules.
Some things that the novels do, should be in the rules. A hand held AC, like the Wovlerines, should allow another mech to pick up the weapon and use it. Horrible chance to hit, but since mechs can use arms as clubs, it should be able to use the weapon. One shot should be all, if the weapon had any ammo left before it was separated from the unit.
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Karagin
02/25/23 12:47 AM
38.48.39.237
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The rules have allowed you prop up your mech to fire weapons with one Arm and use the weapons in the other to fire since the 2nd Edtion of the game came out or when Citytech came; it's not new. Crawling mechs, is a dramatic pose, nothing more. Mechs overheating and blowing up, which at least fits the idea of ammo cooking off if the mech runs out of the ability to cool off enough.
Glancing hits are dramatic; they would be those near misses we all roll in the game. You need an 8 to get an impact. You roll a 7, so close but not the required number. So for the fiction, that would translate as a near miss or glancing shot that bounced verses hitting the mech and doing damage.
Novels should NOT stick to the rules of the game. The game is set up for us to fight battles on a table or the floor. The novels are there to give use the bigger picutre of things.
Do you want Battletech, or do you want Robotech? Serious question, because if the novels follow the rules you end up with a lot of silliness. A battle that places at less distance than a football field for starters given how nerfed the weapons are to keep the game, again, playable on the table-top for the most part. It's bad enough when we have mechs doing physical combat in the novels which thankfully we don't have them doing martial arts ala Robotech-style stories.
One-shot weapons, I don't see those used that often, unless they are in more use on the newer stuff, which won't surprise me, but it's one shot, given that, it's out of ammo, but since BT doesn't allow the mech to ditch the launch or gun, the mech is stuck with the item. That is a rules issues, not a story issue. In other words a cool idea that sounded great, but was poorly written up and play tested and not really thought through fully when they tossed it out for mass use to the players. Lot's of things like that are in the rules as it is.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/25/23 04:34 AM
45.51.181.83
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The rules say you have to have one leg working as well, to prop up a mech, unless they changed that part of it.
I have not seen anything about allowing a mech to crawl anywhere, and for some units, it is impossible to do. Armless mechs, like a Stalker being one of them.
The problem is any contact would do some damage. I do understand that at least lasers need some short time to focus on a point to do full damage, but this sounds like using a shield to prevent damage.
I agree that the ranges fought are entirely a joke. You can't hit a walking barn at 90 meters with a gun is ridiculous. The ranges of weapons might well be far greater, but being able to target them seems to be an issue. One the greatly advanced clans and even WOB didn't seem to get right.
I have seen a few instances where a mech does a physical attack which is beyond what it is capable of. Though I don't remember if it was fan fiction, such as Batte Technology magazine, so will give that a pass.
I believe you missed what was being said about a shot remaining in a 'detachable' weapon like the Wolverines AC.
I dislike the one shot weapons IE the OS variety.
In the end, the rules need changing to actually work. Too many people think the novels allow them to do a back flip, kick another mech in the head while doing so, and then fire off 10 rounds of AC ammo, taking out an entire battalion, while avoiding any sort of return fire.
Much like a recent example of people thinking Elder Scrolls: Skyrim is D&D. Simple shoot someone with an arrow. What do you mean I missed?
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