Requiem
08/14/21 06:44 PM
124.184.171.41
|
First Lord Simon Cameron begins his 5 year ‘good-will’ tour of the Star League, leaving his 7-year-old son Richard Cameron on Terra, thus at the next time he expected to next see his son was when he was 12-13 years old.
Question – Whom did Simon choose as his son’s legal guardian whist he was on his 5-year ‘good-will’ tour?
ie whom did he allow to make health and education decisions etc.
As during the Throne Room Massacre we know that at that time there were 79 surviving members of House Cameron - thus there must be family members alive circa 2750.
As, there is absolutely no way he would leave this in the hands of person such as Kerensky ….
So, what this also means is that the Council of lords must have overridden Simon’s wishes when they appointed Aleksandr Kerensky as Richard’s Guardian – and made him Regent.
Was he removed from family members and placed in the Palace alone at age 8? all in the name of state security?
and as Kerensky went along with this what does this say about him - a General willing to crush a young boy's life for that of the state?
So, why didn’t another member of House Cameron step forward - deny the Council of Lords their choice as Regent and appoint one of their own as Regent - as family should look after family?
There is a back story here that has yet to be considered!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
08/16/21 03:35 AM
124.184.171.41
|
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nighthawk
Production year 2720
Amaris Civil War 27866 to 2780
As Amaris’ forces have complete access to ALL Terran Hegemony Military Industrial Facilities – wouldn’t this also dictate that Amaris has access to Nighthawk Light Power Armor?
Also as Kerensky no longer has access to the Terran Hegemony at the Start of the War this would also dictate he was unable to manufacture / obtain spare parts (in any quantity) for his military?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force
Section 4
“The SLDF had thousands of military bases and supply depots spread throughout known space; each inhabited world was home to at least one of these installations.”
“hundreds, potentially thousands, of secret bases were also constructed.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Border_Guards_Agreement
2572, October 17 – Border Guards Agreement
A treaty allowing the Star League Defence Forces to establish military bases throughout the Inner Sphere by allowing the Star League to purchase lands on any Member State world to establish military bases throughout the Inner Sphere to provide the SLDF unrestricted range. Economic limitations, however, restricted their number.
As The Star League were required to pay for these facilities and they are upon “each inhabited world was home to at least one of these installations” - there appears to be a very large financial bill owing to every Great House?
And as there are “hundreds, potentially thousands, of secret bases were also constructed.”, did the Great Houses receive any compensation for these facilities?
Also when did each Great House become aware of these facilities – “Sword of Damascus Facilities” lurking within every Great Houses Back Yard …. Sub rosa
As wouldn’t this indicate that the First Lord and his SLDF did not trust their Council Lords and their Great Houses / Military?
If this was the case wouldn’t every House Lord have a minor apoplexy regarding the issue of hidden facilities?
Wouldn’t it be reasonable to expect that the DC would have threatened to leave the SL on this point alone?
Also, by extension wouldn’t this initiate a “Shadow War” between the Intelligence Departments of the SLDF Vs Every Houses’ own Intelligence Departments concerning locating all of these hidden facilities? And by extension wouldn’t every House be initiating their own Hidden Base policy to hide their shadow forces from the SLDF -if they no longer trust us and expect us to rebel one day wouldn’t it be prudent to prepare for a possible war with the SLDF as that is exactly what they are doing by placing hidden bases everywhere?
If so where is the details about this hidden War? Or should we just create our own Alt history version?
Multiple wars in the Shadows between a SLDF secret black ops unit that no one within the SLDF would recognise and every Great House Military aim to find / conceal all hidden facilities ….
Also in the far future (Second / Third Succession War - 3025ish) with the fall of technology - if there was a SLDF facility where “each inhabited world was home to at least one of these installations.” – then did every world conduct an extensive search of their planet? I would assume a Satellite was used …. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovatio...ward-180961120/
And wouldn’t this make for an exciting non-war game as per my forum in the past – every house has their own archaeologist team, similar to Snord’s Irregulars – just existing much earlier ….?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/16/21 12:58 PM
45.51.181.83
|
There is a thread that asked who was in charge of Richard's upbringing, and it was all laid at Kerensky's feet. It was stated that others had been assigned to deal with Richard, while Kerensky was in the Periphery. It was ignored and said Kerensky was at fault. Funny how things are starting to change.
Kerensky was a main whos loyalty was to the throne, not the person that sat on it. As he did not see himself as the leader, he would not try and take that power. And now the kicker. Kerensky put the lives of everyone in the SL ABOVE the life of a single child. Hmmmmm..
Thousands of depots across the IS, and yet it is suggested that all of them were stripped of personnel in order to attack Amaris. This was addressed in other threads, yet the logic of doing this was said to be true. The logic: none of the bases had guards left to do their job of guarding the bases.
With Amaris in charge of the SL industry base, it was said there is no way for Amaris to upgrade his forces. See the problem with this logic now?
Question: How does a base remain hidden if the nation that it sits in, are compensated for the lands used to make such a base?
Each nation would have a problem if they found a hidden base in their realms. Finding them is the key.
Again, the SL was providing security to the IS nations, allowing them to put more funds towards infrastructure of their nations. By not being forced into having millions of soldiers ready for war that the SL was supposed to prevent, the waste of money was not there. As ALL entities were supposed to follow the same rules, there would be no sneak attacks of large size, and it would be met with SL forces along with the nations.
There will always be a 'shadow' war when intel departments are working. ANY, and I mean any, spy found that isn't the nations, will create an issue. Part of why counter intelligence departments are made. You should always be on the look out and removal of foreign agents. As well as trying to make headway into their nation's secrets.
As stated before, those SL facilities that were known were raided at the beginning of the 1st war. As others were found, they to were raided. Given Comstars secret mission, it is very likely that anytime a nation tried to start building advanced tech, it was leaked to other nations, so they could take it out. Barring that, framing another nation by using Comstars own forces would happen. Where I do believe that there would ALWAYs be some examples of advanced tech that should be usable to recover that tech, or have some storage of that knowledge elsewhere, the developers did a poor job in retconning that information in. Any research facility working with advanced tech, like say the development of the Devastator mech, would have several gauss riffles and such laying around, this would give the finders some tech to work with.
Given the need for secrecy, I don't think the finders would use Comstar to send a message that some was found.
|
Requiem
08/16/21 05:51 PM
124.184.171.41
|
Quote:
There is a thread that asked who was in charge of Richard's upbringing, and it was all laid at Kerensky's feet.
Yes, I do agree there is a previous thread that considered the Canon version of events – whereby, as a single man, Aleksandr Kerensky as Commander-in-Chief of the SLDF, had been thrusted the additional position of Regent and Protector of the Star League as well as the duty and responsibility of bringing up an 8-year-old boy to one day rule the Star League.
Then there is this thread – where we consider Simon, prior to his 5-year good will tour, and as a father of a then 7-year-old boy, whether he would appoint guarantor ad litem from his family. Thus subsequently, upon his assassination, the Council Lords and Aleksandr Kerensky all agree to override Simon’s wishes when it comes to his son’s future welfare.
Quote:
Kerensky was a main whose loyalty was to the throne, not the person that sat on it.
Problem with this is his Canon history and who said he should be the next Commander-in-Chief of the SLDF.
As a Captain at the time of Commanding General Ikolor Fredasa he saw firsthand what happened to a Commanding General who placed throne first – person who sits in it second – with a view that the SLDF must act as per its remit to protect the Star League no mater the lack of orders of the person who sits on the throne – he was hanged in ignominy for treason and not by firing squad as per his rank and position demanded.
Then as Aide to the person who hanged Commanding General Ikolor Fredasa – the now Commanding General Rebecca Retldral – who’s personal guarantee that he would complete the job she couldn’t – to protect Terra from Simon’s paranoid dream that Terra would burn – A person who placed person who sits in it FIRST and throne and Star League SECOND. Thus, the ONLY way he could become Commanding General is if he agreed to Rebecca’s point of view! Ruler first – Throne and Star League Second.
He then subsequently purged the SLDF Officer Corp ...
So, in all reality, given his past historical actions, he once again returned to form and placed power, the people who ruled, First (now the Council of Lords: The Lords of the Great Houses) – above that of the Throne and Star League, and by placing the Star League second, he also placed Richard Second – and what did the Star League get out of this? A weak and ineffectual Leader of the Star League.
Thus, he put power first above that of a single child – what happens in a military state when the Lord of a Realm is weak and ineffectual, and his Lords are very strong and effective (‘sharks’)?
Whereas if we adopt a premise of a triumvirate there is a very high probability that the young Richard would have been a stronger more effectual leader as he would not have grown up alone, desiring a friend / father figure (as we see in Amaris).
Quote:
Thousands of depots across the IS, and yet it is suggested that all of them were stripped of personnel in order to attack Amaris.
In all reality – considering the vast size of the SLDF – this is the ONLY means by which the SLDF can obtain the logistics required.
The logic: the base guards stripped the depo of everything they could – sealed the depo shut with explosives – then proceeded to join Kerensky in his crusade. Which satisfies future events – finding evacuated and hidden depos buried under mountains of rock.
Quote:
With Amaris in charge of the SL industry base, it was said there is no way for Amaris to upgrade his forces. See the problem with this logic now?
It was said that it took Amaris 2-years to gain access to the computer system to gain control of the planetary defence weapons.
It was said that from day one – his forces gained control over the Terran Hegemony Military Industrial Complex – as this is the ONLY way his forces can expand to such a size as to inflict such damage as was sustained upon the SLDF.
Thus, YES Amaris’ forces would have gained control over the Nighthawk power armour – the only way Amaris could not have, is if the manufacture of them was outside the Terran Hegemony – and this goes against the Mother Doctrine – not to mention in all probability a Great House will end up with the plans to manufacture them as you are now using foreign plants to manufacture them.
Quote:
Finding them is the key.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force
“Hundreds, potentially thousands, of secret bases were also constructed. SLDF engineers went to great lengths to construct these hidden bases: leveling mountains, draining lakes, building islands in the middle of oceans”
Mega-civil-engineering upon such a vast scale of worlds will produce waves – logistics / personnel etc – wouldn’t every Great House attempt to keep track of every SLDF unit within their realm – when a massive number of engineering units disappear for long periods of time it wouldn’t take a genius to realise they are up to something.
Then if you have an old planetary survey from a satellite and you compare it with a new one and you send in a recon team, and when they come back with definitive proof of even just one – logic will dictate they are making more than one. The question then becomes academic – how many engineering units have gone missing – in what areas did they go missing – for how long they went missing – can we track their logistics requests / food requests such as concrete / ration packs, quantity of water etc …
These logistics ‘waves’ can be tracked!
Quote:
Again, the SL was providing security to the IS nations, allowing them to put more funds towards infrastructure of their nations.
Except for the fact there is a Tithe system in place – The Star League Accords required every Great Houses’ Military Industrial Complexes to provide the SLDF with a massive quantity of materials first – any surplus there-after could then go to the Houses’ military …
So, the money that was supposed to be going to the people and the infrastructure of the nation was actually going to the Military Industrial Complex in order to shore up the SLDF – how else did it get so vast so quickly?
The Periphery, Great Houses and the Terran Hegemony are just one large pyramid Scheme with the First Lord at the top!
Quote:
As ALL entities were supposed to follow the same rules, there would be no sneak attacks of large size
And yet how many shadow wars were there – how many civil wars (FWL etc)– how many wars did the SLDF just ignore – FS Vs CC for example …
If all were supposed to follow the rules then why was the Council edit of 2650 enacted to limit the size of every Military force to less than 1% of the SLDF over time?
Quote:
There will always be a 'shadow' war when intel departments are working.
Er … NO …. Intelligence gathering is one thing, actively hunting and killing is another … (Comstar Vs Fed Comm for example during their shadow war and post shadow war) any spy found will create an opportunity to provide them with counterintelligence and to provide the enemy with no end of junk intel. You do not have to always remove them when you can use them.
Quote:
As stated before, those SL facilities that were known were raided at the beginning of the 1st war.
Yes I agree.
Problem is however, the 1st Succession War has not yet occurred – this issue is during the waning years of the Star League prior to the Amaris Coup.
The issue is, as a Great Lord, you have just found the SLDF with their hand in the cooky jar (manufacturing hidden military facilities) within your realm thus posing a massive security issue to your realm – so what are they going to do next unless you stop them here and now! Little by little the Star League and the First Lord has chipped away at the power of the Great Lords so where do you draw the line? When the First Lord states that there is no more need for borders and the Great Lords as there is but one Star League?
Which is a real possibility …
Quote:
Given Comstars secret mission, it is very likely that anytime a nation tried to start building advanced tech, it was leaked to other nations, so they could take it out
This is the era of the Star League not the Succession Wars.
Quote:
Given the need for secrecy, I don't think the finders would use Comstar to send a message that some was found.
Unless it was heavily encrypted.
But again, this is during the age of the Star League – thus HPG communication is …?
And ships have them built in, there was no one organisation who knew how to build and use them (as there would post Amaris) – there were in reality a massive number during the Star League Era (as there are today) thus making it difficult to restrict communications.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/16/21 07:04 PM
45.51.181.83
|
So the house lords changed plans for Richards upbringing while Kerensky lead the SLDF in the periphery. The people that were there to teach Richard failed, so this makes it the army leader that is off fighting with his troops at fault? Isn't the fact he wouldn't be in charge of his training, Kerensky had others doing the job they were hired for? Those vetted by the SL government to say they could do the job properly? So that would mean the entire government failed.
Purging the military of those that are suspected of harboring ideas that the leader considers bad, or worse, harmful towards their leadership is nothing new. It happens more often then not. Given how poorly those in the military and government were doing at the time, it isn't a surprise a change was needed. This is not saying those replacements were better, but it is not something unheard of, or even uncommon. Richard tried to purge the IS of the house leaders. Hmmm...
Kerensky put the throne above the child only since the child was supposed to be in good hands with those assigned to teach him. The fact they were put there by others doesn't mean anything, as Kerensky was more concerned with dealing with the Periphery then a child. Sounds like something he did with his own children, yet his wife dealt with their upbringing. Isn't that normal with humans? The mother tends to deal with that, while the father goes off to work? Kinda of sexist thinking as society continues this trend.
But yet it seems those depots were still active after the Amaris war, and were used to supply the exodus fleet of resources. So something is wrong with the concept of all of those depots being stripped and destroyed. The houses got their military supplies from somewhere, as more then 50 or so regiments of units were used in each nation to fight the 1st war.
Funny. You push hidden and secret facilities yet state that the Nighthawk power armor had to be made in the TH. Do you see the logic conflict here? They had hidden WARSHIP facilities. Making power armor factories in secret, considering mech production facilities were hidden, seem very trivial.
wouldn’t every Great House attempt to keep track of every SLDF unit within their realm
Key word, attempt.
These logistics ‘waves’ can be tracked!
Was told that you can not follow the 'waves' to hidden bases. So which is it?
Now who runs the update on map making? Someone from the SL intel department? Maybe override the current camera running to include old data? Or make is so the terrain doesn't look touched? Maybe even building a small factory and expanding the facility underground so you don't see it from orbit? Even things like restricted airspace to prevent someone from even trying, which would include any satelites being shot down that violate that. Simple grown a forest over the work area will change the area without giving away what is underground. You could make a freaking amusement park located on top of a major facility.
Sending money to have someone else guard your facilities verses you paying someone yourself has always been an issue. Sending the SL so much to cover buying, maintaining, and paying those units to guard your facility is cheaper in the long run then doing it yourself. As next year, when you pay for it again, they have more units to spread out to cover more area. And with your limited production facilities, they can provide far more units then you can.
The governments of today hire outside companies to run things like transit systems, garbage disposal, power, water, and all sorts of other things. Why would you do so if it wasn't cheaper? Government wages tend to be higher then private worker wages.
Also in the far future (Second / Third Succession War - 3025ish) with the fall of technology - if there was a SLDF facility where “each inhabited world was home to at least one of these installations.” – then did every world conduct an extensive search of their planet?
As stated before, those SL facilities that were known were raided at the beginning of the 1st war. As others were found, they to were raided. Given Comstars secret mission, it is very likely that anytime a nation tried to start building advanced tech, it was leaked to other nations, so they could take it out.
This is the era of the Star League not the Succession Wars.
Not sure why you said it was in the SL era, not the succession wars. Sentence context seems to be missing again.
Now there lays a major issue. Comstar being the only one that had access to the HPG network is erroneous. All of those mobile HPG units would not be in the hands of Comstar, as they would have house run units as well. The fact that not a single one of them remained or was found after Kerensky left is a huge logic hole. The fact that techs on New Avalon, Luthien, Tharkad and many other worlds has fallen thru the cracks. It would also make sense that border worlds would have had units on them that weren't part of the SL to report any incursions that the HPG network might 'ignore'. So TPTB basically sunk themselves by retconning the mobile and smaller HPG units.
|
Requiem
08/16/21 09:47 PM
124.184.171.41
|
First – there are two different threads from different Forums.
In this thread the idea is there should be a member of House Cameron or one of the branch families that should have been chosen as guarantor ad litem for Richard prior to his fathers ‘Good Will’ tour (expected to last 5 years).
It is very clear what happened to Richard if Kerensky remains as Regent – where there appears to be no family guarantor ad litem.
So yes Kerensky, as head of the government, epically failed Richard and the Star League.
Whereas if there was a guarantor ad litem for Richard there can be an argument made that he would have been far better off (psychologically) long term.
Purging the military creates dissenters.
Quote:
yet his wife dealt with their upbringing.
Problem is their upbringing involved being a part of a resistance movement cell that was continually being hunted by Amaris forces in Moscow for the first 13-15 years of their life – ie no childhood whatsoever.
Then when their father arrived, he shunned them publicly – rather than saying this is my wife and two children he decided to hide them away as if he was ashamed of them.
I’m no child psychologist but even to me this seems to be very messed up!
Quote:
Depos active after the Amaris War
The writings suggest only those within the Terran Hegemony are still operational and those are the ones maintained by Amaris forces.
Outside of the Terran Hegemony, within the Great Houses, there is nothing to say (that I have found to date) these were re-opened by SLDF.
Quote:
Nighthawk
Where else can a valuable piece of one-off technology for the SLDF Special Forces be made except for than within the Terran Hegemony?
My Hidden Warship facility idea was for illegally increasing the size of Great House Fleets – as this is the only way this can occur.
The Nighthawk armour is legal and is used for their special forces – ie it can be built within the Terran Hegemony, within a Military Industrial Complex and still remain a secret. There is absolutely no reason to go to the added expense of creating a hidden manufacturing facility off-world the armour does in no way require this amount of security.
Quote:
Key word, attempt.
There are vast numbers of engineering units – thus tens of thousands of people – thus the idea they cannot be tracked and questioned seems a little ridiculous.
Logistic Waves – purchase requisitions for everything …. This needs to be in writing and must be stored away for audits / analysis etc. Invoice shipping logs for the units in question – high storage of food quantities above the norm equates to field exercise etc anything above this they are up to something that will take time to complete … then there are any other requests made for at the same time. Add it all together and yes it does paint a picture as to what they are up to.
Quote:
Now who runs the update on map making?
How about military intelligence – Cartography unit – as you do want to know about the world your unit has been sent to garrison / invade prior to the mission – or do you want it to be a surprise, maps should be available in the spaceport gift shop, shouldn’t they?
Restricted Airspace – does this include restricted Space above the construction zone?
As during the Clan invasion didn’t one poor battle for the clans involve a observatory on the moon telling the local general what they were up to – or how about the old U2 aircraft camera only – what would happen if a Dropship was fitted with advanced communication / cameras etc ?
Aerial / space based observation has been used for how long now?
In this game - For the SLDF to win it must win every time for the IS to win they just need win once. Where there are hundreds if not thousands of opportunities this does not appear difficult.
Also, if the SLDF started shooting down civilian satellites this will create red flags.
Also, forests take how long to grow – 50-years plus depending on the species.
Quote:
paying those units to guard your facility is cheaper in the long run then doing it yourself.
pay for and build all the weapons systems.
then accept foreign soldiers on your soil.
then give then the weapons you built any excess amounts can go to the regulars …
then expect them to loyal.
This is the definition of an occupying security force, that the local government is paying for rather than the occupying government.
Thus they now have control over all important facilities rather than the local regulars.
Quote:
Why would you do so if it wasn't cheaper?
Question: Which foreign government would the USA trust to act as their military in times of crisis because it is cheaper than having your own military?
Quote:
Given Comstars secret mission, it is very likely that anytime a nation tried to start building advanced tech, it was leaked to other nations, so they could take it out.
How did that work out for the Helm memory Core on New Avalon? How about triple strength Myomer? How about the Hatchetman or Wolfhound? Sorry but no Comstar was not able to stop human development …
Quote:
Sentence context seems to be missing again.
Because everything that was being discussed from the original thread was from the Star League Era.
Quote:
The fact that not a single one of them remained or was found after Kerensky left is a huge logic hole.
The fact that there were space battles involving hundreds of ships on both sides during the succession wars and believing they had to rely upon the pony system for communication is the huge logic hole.
Quote:
It would also make sense that border worlds would have had units on them that weren't part of the SL to report any incursions that the HPG network might 'ignore'.
Reservist or guards units – weekend warrior units … who can use the planetary HPG to send a message …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/17/21 01:00 AM
45.51.181.83
|
Did Amaris and his troops even know about Kerensky's wife and children? Did their mother even tell them Alexander Kerensky was their father? I believe both were born while he was in the periphery.
So Kerensky didn't blow up the depots in the IS to seal them after raiding them to attack the TH? And it doesn't sound like he did so when he left the IS. This would also mean having guards there to keep pirates, raiders and possibly mercs and house units from stealing things left behind. Which is why losing 95% of all forces can't be accurate. If so, that means there were no forces left on Terra when liberated, as so many would be stuck in guard duty, not only on known bases, but the hidden ones as well. So the canon numbers have to be off, or some special note is needed.
Wasn't talking your hidden warship facilities. Camelot Command was set up to deal with warships. There isn't a reason why the Nighthawks couldn't have been made there or the other thousands of bases around the IS. Just resources sent in, and all manufacturing was done on site. As the SL had so many transports and such, and could move their intel agents around without an issue, there is no real reason why they couldn't move parts and such as well. The Condor Dropship states you can hide items in the wings for smuggling purposes. Who is to say they didn't have hidey holes in other ships? Even just transferring such items to their warships and jumping them.
As the SL wasn't hurting for ships like the IS was during the succession wars, it was more likely they did deep space/non system meetings to transfer items. Who is to say that behemoth dropship left with 100k tons of ore, and arrived at all of their destinations with the 100k tons of ore? This is part of clandestine operations. With all the ships going places, the SL isn't likely to have them all known at all times. Otherwise any sort of assault is doomed from the start.
I would figure in the time of orbital bombardments, space will be restricted as well. Even to the point of shutting down all non escorted traffic until projects are done or beyond. Given the fact that during the SL time, it isn't likely the worlds were overflowing with people living on them. Simple operations, like removing mountains to create more farm lands could have been cover stories for building facilities in areas. Even Terraforming plants can hide a lot.
Military intelligence. Whose? It is likely the SL was in charge of doing the map making, as they would have the most up to date systems to do it. Does that mean they would fudge areas they didn't want to be known? Possibly. Depends on how well known and how many people actually live in the area.
You miss major points in the game. You say 50 years for growing trees. That isn't so in the real world now, but with advanced technology, things like gene splicing and other tech can cause trees to grow faster, just like crops. And this is also suggesting they didn't use young trees to start with. With the right planning, you have trees being grown locally, so they can be transplanted when needed. Part of what general contractors do with building things. They organize things to the right parts are there at the right time.
When you hire security guards to guard say a construction yard, do you supply weapons and such? Do you say they have to do everything you want? Or do they have their own orders and get supplied from the company they work for? Now apply that to other nations. You would have your company of infantry, but have the larger machines there by 'supposed' allies to provide the punch and not pay for it, IF you can actually purchase those units. Again, you were limited to so many units, yet you have an entire nation to guard. You are going to refuse someone else guarding most of it for you? It isn't a great idea, but what can you do?
Which foreign government would the USA trust to act as their military in times of crisis because it is cheaper than having your own military?
The thing is, the SL is the U.S. for the most part, while the houses are the foreign governments. The houses lacked the tech the SL had, and with the limits on what they could own, were in a position that they could either deal with it, or go without.
Sorry but no Comstar was not able to stop human development …
Not stop, but hamper. It was only after the rush to destroy one another that things slowed down enough to take stock on HOW tech was being repressed. This made it harder for Comstar to do their evil deeds. And with that, the FC didn't find out it was Comstar, though they pretty much suspected it.
The Hatchetman and Wolfhound did not have any new technology in them. They were new units using old tech. It wasn't like they had Endo Steel or ER lasers. There were a few new mechs created that were not messed with. Only advanced tech being surpressed.
Then why did you post: Also in the far future (Second / Third Succession War - 3025ish) with the fall of technology - if there was a SLDF facility where “each inhabited world was home to at least one of these installations.” – then did every world conduct an extensive search of their planet?
This was NOT about the SL era, which is why the response didn't follow the time frame.
rely upon the pony system for communication is the huge logic hole.
When did this happen? During the 4th war is the only time I can think of anyone relying on the pony express. Otherwise, Comstar was used.
But the original statement was that mobile HPGs were in use, so the concept of Comstar being the only ones that knew how to use or make the HPG was off. The black boxes are even more retconned things to destroy the timeline.
I would think several important worlds would have had fleets of the Mobile HPGs, so the ability to use them would not have been lost. Even the Tech to rebuild them would not have been Comstar only tech. So again, the statement of: So TPTB basically sunk themselves by retconning the mobile and smaller HPG units.
Seems valid.
The border guards would have had their own HPG units working, to make sure Comstar wasn't working against them, or that they were even in control of the HPG network. It wasn't long after Comstar was formed the canon succession wars started. It would be questionable on trusting them to be neutral at that time.
|
Requiem
08/17/21 08:22 AM
124.184.171.41
|
No – Amaris never came to know about Kerensky’s Wife and Children.
Yes – They did know Kerensky was their father.
Nicholas – 4 May 2764 – Conception – late July / early August 2763 –
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Taxation_Edict_of_2763
“The taxation Edict of 2763 caused the Crisis requiring the SLDF and Aleksandr Kerensky to move away from the Terran Hegemony”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Richard_Cameron_(28th_c.)
“He ordered General Kerensky to enforce this edict with his troops.”
No definitive date as to when he was ordered to the Periphery.
Andery – 9 November 2766 – Conception – late January / early February 2766 –
Problem - December 26, 2766 – Amaris Coup d’etat
Thus, his wife must have been in the Periphery at the time of his conception with a very young Nicholas.
Also considering the time commercial vessels would have taken to reach Terra must also be factored into the equation as when she left him for Terra. How this slipped passed everyone’s security / intelligence gathering ability remains a mystery – also why she returned to Terra: Moscow also remains a mystery as there must have been a safe and comfortable world within proximity that was used by other high-ranking officers for their spouses.
Depos within the Great Houses – sealed off prior to / during the Amaris Coup – as 95% of the SLDF lost during the Coup all reserves must have been called up by the end – thus during is the only logical verdict.
Depos within the Terran Hegemony – plundered by the Great Houses post Amaris Coup.
And yes, the 95% loss depletion is accurate. What this means is the remaining SLDF is now equal in size / lower than all the Great House Military Units combined. Though their Navy is still slightly larger (maybe).
Nighthawks Manufacturing – no information available. However rational would suggest it should be within the Terran Hegemony as it is used for their special infantry forces.
Quote:
With all the ships going places, the SL isn't likely to have them all known at all times.
Considering the number of Recharge Stations available / warehouse / drop-ship ports within the Inner Sphere you could track ships movements – not in real time – but you can create a map and track them.
Also, all warships / civilian ships should have a IFF and names / classes can also be tracked – again not in real time but they can be tracked - if they are taking a dedicated route.
Again, why would an invasion fleet move from A to B on a dedicated highway? Wouldn’t they be using non-standard jump points once they reach a point of no return?
Quote:
Simple operations, like removing mountains to create more farmlands could have been cover stories for building facilities in areas. Even Terraforming plants can hide a lot.
Since when was this ever considered simple?
Quote:
It is likely the SL was in charge of doing the map making
Highly unlikely - Each Great House government would have a dedicated department attached to every military where all civilian explorer agencies would have to record their claims to recognise any legal ownership.
I would also suggest this would also have been noted within the Star League Accords – sharing of information - navigational hazard - mutual economic prosperity.
As for fudging maps – cardinal sin within deep space that could never be forgiven by anyone.
Quote:
gene splicing and other tech can cause trees to grow faster, just like crops
Yes it is possible – however given that if it is widely used throughout the IS - wouldn’t it be easy to recognise that an area of land has been replanted with a species fast growing trees.
Quote:
They organize things to the right parts are there at the right time.
Problem – this is space and the distance between a normal contractor and the warehouse is just a little bit larger – months larger.
Quote:
When you hire security guards to guard say a construction yard
So a Great Houses security now equates to the same level of security required for a construction yard?
You could actually build a military and a rapid deployment Marine unit that could actually defend the entirely of the realm – given the funds and the technology a large enough navy can accomplish this with just a few thousand warships.
As during the Star League era there should be way more than this in merchantman jump-ships alone for each House.
Quote:
The thing is, the SL is the U.S. for the most part, while the houses are the foreign governments.
I would have said something similar to the series Expanse …
First Lord = Secretary-General of the United Nations
Star League = United Nations
SLDF = UN Peace Keepers (on steroids)
Federated Suns = USA
Lyran Commonwealth = Germany / Europe etc
Quote:
The houses lacked the tech the SL had, and with the limits on what they could own, were in a position that they could either deal with it, or go without.
Or what every other country did … reverse engineer it whist looking for ways to improve upon the base model – eg.
Take one British Motorcycle – reverse engineer it ang give it an electric start and you have a superior bike that sold more units ….
Quote:
Hamper?
This is another massive black hole of information – to what extent, as if Comstar’s agents were caught even once the furore this would produce …..
Hatchetman – detachable escape head rather than just the seat as per a fighter?
Quote:
This was NOT about the SL era, which is why the response didn't follow the time frame.
For hidden bases – this could mean both.
Quote:
rely upon the pony system for communication is the huge logic hole
As stated – if Warship fleets do not have HPG then how is one fleet supposed to communicate with another when there are mass fleet engagements of 100 to 300 plus warships occurring ? how do they know they are not jumping into a trap? – in the absence of a HPG on board your flag ship you are back to pony express!
All ship building facilities should have a dedicated HPG manufacturer sub division just as they did with all communications systems during the era of the Star League. This just makes common sense!
Thus if Comstar wanted to be the only manufacturer they would have had to destroy every single manufacture at every shipyard as well as all information /personnel at the same time.
And I agree it is Valid.
And yes every border military should have their own HPGs – however for this to be valid Comstar is now a multiple companies within every House as a division of that House’s government. Thus the idea of ComStar / interdictions is now no longer valid – it also means that Terra is now up for grabs and will become the most fought over planet – and unless everyone agrees no WMDs on Terra it will be a Dead world sometime during the 1st Succession War.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/17/21 12:32 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Again, why would an invasion fleet move from A to B on a dedicated highway? Wouldn’t they be using non-standard jump points once they reach a point of no return?
You answer the question of how the SL would do things like secret bases. This is the era that using non standard jump points on a regular basis. They were not worried about losing one of the few remaining ships working. They had plenty. Also, ships can run dark. There is no reason why they could not have their IFF turned off. Or have a set of fake IFF codes they used to throw off someone trying to track them. Such as Comstar used to land their forces at the NAIS for their raid. If not for Hanse, no one would know the dropship they were using was not the one the IFF said it was.
For the SL, a lot of complex things was simple compared to today. Granted the mountains was a big exxagerated. It could have been some hills with a lake or some such thing. Even just terracing a hillside could cover the work.
wouldn’t it be easy to recognise that an area of land has been replanted with a species fast growing trees.
Remember the statement dealt with planting a forest. That would probably be lead by conservationists saying the project was being done, so it would be expected to have a new forest in the area. It isn't like you are going to try and plant a forest in an area that was desert just before it was done.
The longer distances is why you have to have a good general manager of a construction site. Having all the parts sent when needed, means knowing the distance and time it will take to get there. Barring some sort of accident, you do have a pretty standard timetable for parts being moved from planet A to planet B in the SL time. And this is if you have to move them from world to world.
given the funds and the technology a large enough navy can accomplish this with just a few thousand warships.
This is why the SL was used for security. The funds for the houses was a big thing. Peace time and projects that needed to get done would mean not funneling money into a military that was not needed. Given the time needed to move units, a single rapid response forces could NOT cover the entire region of the CC. Even a hundred would be difficult, and this would be basically a battalion level unit for each. The concept of thousands of SL depots would mean each having forces that would be used on local scales, while the houses could have some forces scattered among the worlds with SL forces on them. Also factor in that there were more worlds inhabited then the game has when it first came out. Worlds were not destroyed by war at this point. And this isn't even touching the small colonies on things like asteroids and very hostile environmental worlds.
So the SL would effectively be an effective U.N. for the purpose of providing security troops? The question of would you trust them to provide security for your realm doesn't have the same power to it. Would you rather spend 1 billion on someone securing your borders or 2 billion on your own troops? Your troops have the old musket weapons while the security troops have tanks, A-10s, and battleships?
How many countries in the world today build Abrahms tanks? Even building Hummers? Most either buy from the 'super' powers or just stick with the basics. The IS would be in the same boat. Yes, they would have a few units with the higher tech equipment, but for the most part, they would stick with the lower end toys. Normal rifles, not the big baddies, but ones that were used for hunting, would be normal. Equipment that can be made into war machines would be more useful when they can be used for every day projects.
Even the simple fusion engine. Most worlds would not be able to make one, and I would think a few of the parts would be severely restricted. Even the house lords would not want just anyone being able to make weapons of war, as they have to worry about someone else trying to take over.
Hatchetman – detachable escape head rather than just the seat as per a fighter?
Still nothing new. Just using current tech in a different way. Aerofighters use this tech. Now if it was able to launch and land on an enemy with explosive results, then they would have done something.
The fact that there were space battles involving hundreds of ships on both sides during the succession wars and believing they had to rely upon the pony system for communication is the huge logic hole.
This is the statement you made, which had me respond about the only time it was known the pony express was relied upon during the big wars.
The fact is that ships would have to have some reliable form of HPG communications. So yes. Before they retconned in the ships carrying HPGs, this would be accurate.
how do they know they are not jumping into a trap?
I forget the class of warship, but when the Ion-Lithium batteries came out the Monmouth was used to jump into a system, detect the fleet waiting in ambush then jumped back to the invading fleet and warned them of the trap. They invaders then jumped to the other jump point.
I do agree that all ship yards should have had HPGs on them as well as a lot of high end ships, even non military yahcts. I would think the ship that carried the first lord would have one as well.
I was talking about before Comstar became an entity. Each house would have had their own sub network of HPGs, as the only other alternative was the SL communications department. Which I think would have come AFTER the exodus from Terra. So the coms network would have had to have been in place BEFORE the SL came about. Might not have been huge, but should have had something. And I doubt the houses would have given it up, as having their own coms made it easier to bypass other houses learning information being sent on their own coded networks.
|
Requiem
08/17/21 08:45 PM
124.184.134.200
|
They are not worried about losing ships as during the Star League era they can determine the exact location of the ship and then dispatch a mobile ship-yard ship that can then repair the damaged ship anywhere.
Considering how important ships are for any space faring societies, I would have thought that during every age there must be such a ship that can repair any other ship – if required.
It would be negligence not to have them.
Quote:
For the SL, a lot of complex things was simple compared to today
This is one of the massive black holes of the game – when can we say that any society has all the same knowledge and capabilities of the Star League?
The Clans should have all the knowledge of the Star League as they must have taken it with them when Kerensky departed the Inner Sphere – thus they should be more advanced, shouldn’t they?
And when can the IS have this same knowledge – post Huntress when Bulldog and Serpent annihilated the Smoke Jaguars and seized their Home-world?
Shortly-thereafter, the Inner Sphere should have been on the same level as the Clans – post Star League Technology and ability
And yet what do we get? More of the same boring … except for the WOB who finally make things interesting once more … and then that got nerfed … again a massive disappointment!
When will the Inner Sphere be able to say they are at Star League Technological level?
As for constructing and hiding a hidden base – a construction manual needs to be produced.
Quote:
This is why the SL was used for security
The Star league was never as altruistic as it was made out to be … a more accurate analogy would be the Star League used the SLDF for stand over tactics … extortion and compliance …
The Council Edict 2650 and the mass production of hidden military facilities were established for one reason - to ensure that no Great Houses’ military could ever rival that of the SLDF … as the Cameron Family feared being replaced!
I agree a single rapid response force can not cover an entire region – however when the concept of multiple rapid response units are introduced, I believe this will change the scenario drastically. Especially when they are a combination of a Carrier fleet and a Battleship fleet backed up with a Corp of Marines for any land operations.
Quote:
The question of would you trust them to provide security for your realm doesn't have the same power to it.
Sorry but I disagree – putting the UN between two states like the FS and the DC is just delaying the inevitable.
It is never about the cost it is about security and how you feel about the security – most would want their people for security. As demonstrated in the DC / FS succession war where the SLDF refused to interfere as well as the FWL Civil War you cannot trust the SLDF to do their job if the First Lord denies their assistance!
Also. I would say a more accurate analogy of the difference in technology is …
F-4 Phantom and F-16 Falcon
Patton Tank and Abrams
Quote:
Most either buy from the 'super' powers or just stick with the basics.
Problem is there are no small states only super-powers. Even the Periphery States have the military industrial capabilities of a super-power.
This is once more where a massive black hole exists in the game – R&D capabilities of the Terran Hegemony Vs. every other state – How long before one of the Great Houses equalled and even surpassed that of Terra? considering the amount of people a Great House has Vs Terra – my bet is that by the time of the Amaris all Great Houses were almost on parity with that of the Terra when it came to military technology.
One other point I would also like to raise – During the Amaris / Kerensky War – wouldn’t every Great House use the confusion to send in Black Special Ops teams into the war zone to ‘acquire’ advanced technology / personnel for their Great House? Thus, in so doing reduce the technology gap even further.
As for mass production – isn’t this why I suggested hidden facilities throughout their realm? One day the Star League and the SLDF would wake up and find most of the Great Houses with a far more advanced Great House than they thought.
Quote:
Even the house lords would not want just anyone being able to make weapons of war
The only ones remaining other than the Great Houses are Periphery States – and they are on the same level of technology as a Great House – so again the issue is not technology but who can mass produce the most and who can form the largest most professional army first to take on the SLDF.
Hatchetman – if the head was nothing new then why not incorporate this into every Mech design as standard?
Safety of the pilot would be higher in the head than on a chute floating over the battlefield.
The reason the clans would not have adopted it as it would have been seen as cowardly – for the IS it should have been SOP for all mechs to have this system incorporated if it can be proved the safety of the pilot was higher in an eject-able head than a chute.
I also agree HPGs should have been standard on all ships – once the decision is made to have them built on every world a similar order should have issued to have them built into every warship and a few Jump-ships utilized for high-ranking individuals – First Lord, Council Members etc
I would also suggest very wealthy people would also have had a HPG placed in the personal ship.
For example – when Commander in Chief of the SLDF Rebecca resigned from her post the First Lord was off on his 5 year good will tour – thus making Kerensky her replacement must have been done via HPG communication.
At this stage I would like to ask ComStar if they have a copy of these transmissions as it would be pertinent to understand their thought processes at the time for the sake of History.
The Coms network was established after the Reunification war – this war was completed totally via pony express – hence the longevity of the war.
And yes I agree the Houses would never have given up their Coms to that of an individual on Terra – entering the realm of the preposterous with this ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/17/21 09:59 PM
45.51.181.83
|
I have said that the IS should have had clan tech even before the IS went to the clan home worlds. I have said it was a poor idea that costs stopped this. To retool all the factories to build it, yet they pretty much did that with making SL tech shows the lie to this. TPTB made tech too advanced that there could not be a new boogie man to threaten them the way the clans did. WOB was too small to do much even with the advanced tech, so nukes were what they fell back on.
It doesn't seem like they really thought things thru with the FC and beyond. You knew a civil war would come soon, as the FS and LC combining would create too much of a super power to really do more then sit there.
As for the Yardships, this shows retcon material does NOT always work. The rules made it so this type of vessel could not be possible. The idea of the Terran exodus was possible to have without a vessel like this as the jump drive was still being explored. A mobile space station would be a concept for all jumpships, as it would allow them to have the ability to repair itself. Costs would make sure cheaper units would come about, losing a lot of the capabilities of such a vessel.
The tech level of the clans should have started at SL levels and gone up. But they tried to counter that with the civil war in the Pentagon worlds. Really imaginative... Then having the tech grow in some areas without others was done as the way the clans grew would make some tech more desirable then others. Why worry about better crops when you could have a laser that destroys fields faster so of thought.
So you think the SL was planning to take over the IS from the beginning? I think this isn't correct. As the Camerons continued to rule, it became like most dynasties. The family thought because they were born, therefore they had the right to rule as they wanted to. Had the SL done something like having multiple families take turns, it would have had less issues with the right to rule, but would have caused coupe much more often.
Politics is always a problem. Getting involved or staying out of it will always have negative results. If the SL got involved, it would have been the same thing as not getting involved, just on the opposite side of the spectrum. The concept of for against, and against for comes about. Someone will always complain something wasn't done or was done. You will never be right in any case.
I want to say there is some printed things that suggested the SL wasn't that far ahead of the houses in tech, which is why they made sure the SL had the superior numbers. I don't remember where I had seen that.
The black ops raiding league bases probably did happen. It may be part of why Kerensky got to the point of leaving. Granted, the story doesn't have printed statements to support this. Even framing the periphery states would have been done. I have no doubt the houses did so even before the Amaris war. How much and was it enough is the question. The fact the LC hit Defiance to steal the battlemech plans says it happened in the past. There is no reason to think it wasn't done repeatedly.
I was thinking that you only want those politically allied with you to have any sort of building tech in your nation. If you live in North America, you would not want someone in even South America being able to build mechs. Keeping that power in limited hands means South America would be less likely to rise up and take your position. Even if you are part of the same organization or nation.
The concept of making sure no one takes your tech by producing it in very limited facilities comes into play here.
The head ejection seat not being standard has a few reasons. One is the cost to redesign the existing mechs to use it. Then retooling to make it. Some factories were said to be so old, the techs were worried they would stop functioning entirely, so a retool was out of the question. Also remember the tag line of the game. Life is cheap, mechs aren't. I don't think losing good pilots is smart, but the game has it so you can be replaced easier then the machine.
For a few designs, the head being ejected isn't possible, such as the Archer, which is supposed to be in the lower torso area.
Unless they changed it, Comstar took over the existing coms network to keep it up and running when Kerensky was leaving. I seriously doubt that there wasn't at least some part of it running before the reunification war started. It may have been nothing more then a few worlds being the main hub for coms, but they had to have something in place. Otherwise, why would they have all those smaller and mobile units in place? This would be back up for the main HPG antenna, as well as privately owned ones. I know Comstar was supposed to replace units that were destroyed during the wars, but doubt it was making the system while the war raged.
Also, the LC should have had a working HPG on their last warship in the 2nd war. The ship they sent to destroy the last of the DC ships when it hit Defiance. So their own backstory causes more issues with tech and timeline.
|
Requiem
08/18/21 07:24 AM
124.184.134.200
|
Yes, I agree, with the first paragraph. The IS should have Clan tech by retooling all Military Industrial Facilities
As for WOB Angel Series Mechs etc – these should have been incorporated into all IS forces as second Generation IS Omni – the majority of IS single weapon Mechs should be scrapped! And should have been used by the new SLDF during Bulldog / Serpent.
As for the story I have decided not to bother with it at all – as I will design a complete tangent and go down my own road as I absolutely have no respect whatsoever for the story 3039 onwards.
In my opinion, the concept of mobile space stations should have been introduced for the initial exodus from Terra and all subsequent exodus thereafter – something similar to the Gundam space colony artificial habitats.
As for yard-ships they exist. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Yardship_classes
Quote:
The tech level of the clans should have started at SL levels and gone up.
I agree.
The idea of increasing the Clan Tech too far would make all wars superfluous.
Though the idea of the Clans as is however is appalling to me!
Quote:
So you think the SL was planning to take over the IS from the beginning?
Yes I do – even though some of the First Lords are Basket Cases I believe that there is an underlying House Cameron group who’s sole aim is IS wide domination – remove all current Great Houses Leaders and replace them with a Cameron and at the same time remove all borders and have just one Star League.
The problem is Amaris put this long-term plan to flight.
It also explains the size of the SLDF as well as the Hidden Bases and the unnatural predilection for the Star League to force the Periphery into joining during the Reunification War – was it really worth it? waging such a massive war to just obtain the Periphery states.
This indicates a predilection for conquest – to rule everything and to be the only one to rule everything.
With Politics – you need to explain why they are doing what they are doing – otherwise speculation leads to a very poor story – as shown throughout the Canon story there are just way too many political situations that destroy the story’s aesthetics and limits the games development (as well as profitability).
Just compare the story to that of Warhammer and 40K.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Terran_Hegemony#Star_League
Technology – “Hegemony companies began flooding the member states with technological marvels in return for the raw materials the Hegemony desperately needed, although in accordance with the Mother Doctrine not with those declared off-limits”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mother_Doctrine
“Despite its efforts, the Hegemony government recognized that some degree of leakage would occur and even accepted the occasional loss, content that its continuing advances would make such losses quickly obsolete.”
As for Great Houses attacking the Terran Hegemony during Amaris Civil War – would make for an excellent scenario.
Quote:
I was thinking that you only want those politically allied with you to have any sort of building tech in your nation.
I want every nation to have their own architecture building tech style – a great deal of variety would just make the game more interesting – especially if you started in a Star League facility and yet you turned a corner and the architecture changed to another house – thus realising the initial fortress was at some time used to build a larger fortress for the Great House.
Quote:
The head ejection seat not being standard has a few reasons. One is the cost to redesign the existing mechs to use it. Then retooling to make it.
And yet if you compare this cost to the cost of time required to educate and train, as well as all of the costs itself, to produce a MechWarrior my bet is that it would be cheaper (from an insurance point of view) to place a head ejection system on every mech that it would to train a substitute for the deceased.
Life is not cheap!
As for the archer – explode forward rather than up.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator “the first HPG station, built in 2629 just outside the Court of the Star League, which transmitted the first HPG message on New Year's Day 2630.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Reunification_War 2577-2597
During the Reunification War, therefore, they only had the pony express for messages.
Still believe all ships should have a HPG as standard built into them at the dock yards. So yes, all last ships should have a HPG on them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/18/21 12:28 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Because the vessel could not jump or maneuver while a ship was repaired in its dry-dock, the Newgrange boasted somewhat luxurious recreation and exercise facilities on its four 500-meter Grav Decks and its own Mobile HPG transmitter to keep in touch with home.
This is interesting as the Introduced 2600 suggests there is an issue with the HPG set up.
There is nothing that I seen saying the HPG was installed after it was invented. So more logic issues with the time lines.
A quick note on the Archer ejection concept. The ejection mechanism is supposed to be set to fire backwards from the way the mech is facing, due to the fact you don't want the pilot being shot out into the most likely path of incoming projectiles as well as give them a chance to run.
The archer doesn't have a head per se to eject. A few mechs are like this. For those pilots forced to eject in hostile terrain, I can see they would love a fully environmental contained cockpit going with them.
I want every nation to have their own architecture building tech style
It looks like missed understanding of building tech statement. I was saying you would only want allies to build weapons of war, and even then, have safeguards on them. The possibility of them 'revolting' or turning against you means making sure they can't use that against you. Having just anyone in your nation building weapons tends to end up badly as there will always be a point that people get upset with each other. But the concept of having things like mechs based on their own ideology should have been done in the beginning. The artists didn't do that. The Dragon, Jenner, Panther and such should have been more Japanese style while the Vindicator should have been more Chinese.
As for actual buildings, there is a point where the traditional building styles would have to give way to practicality. In an area that gets hit a lot, the upwards pointed corners on an older style Japanese building becomes a waste of resources. It would get blown apart even when using the best of materials like ferro-crete.
I can see government buildings having them to remind everyone of their history, but even then, the waste of resources would make you think twice.
And now a bit more with issues of the HPG intallation.
There is not one mention in TRO 2750 of the SL built ships having an HPG installed on them. No space even designated for them. So again, the retcon shows thru.
There is one more thing that comes to question about Blake rebuilding the network. If the SL fell, where did he get the money and resources to rebuild the network?
Edited by ghostrider (08/18/21 12:30 PM)
|
Requiem
08/18/21 06:38 PM
124.184.134.200
|
Quote:
So more logic issues with the time lines.
Agree, if a HPG can be installed whist the Newgrange is being constructed for one class of ship then it can be installed for all classes of warships.
This also implies that yes, shipyards did have the ability to at least order the manufacture HPGs or even manufacture them themselves.
The 2600 may refer to the ship and not the HPG – this may be a future addition.
Thus, can it be said? In order for “Comstar” of the future to exist they must have used their new SLDF during the 1st Succession War to eliminate everyone else who has the ability to manufacture them so that they would become the sole manufacturers – and in so doing use their new monopoly as a bully pulpit to get what they wanted.
Archer ejection mechanism – can it go first forward then up and back then – programmed thrusters for variable flight?
Only in a perfect would allies be the only ones to have the ability to manufacture military equipment – however when you begin to treat an ally so it comes to understand the point of view of the enemy is how you will end up loosing wars – as in this case the First Lord and the SLDF forces the Great Houses to understand the point of view of the Periphery so they too came to see the value in insurrection against the Star League.
Quote:
The artists didn't do that. The Dragon, Jenner, Panther and such should have been more Japanese style while the Vindicator should have been more Chinese.
Agree … though as stated in my forum where I rewrote the Draconis Combine … it is also a question of the names, these too should be more cultural specific for the region in which they were made.
As for city warfare – as per the rules of land warfare this was supposed to be illegal, unless combatants were using the city. Thus the safety of cities can be assumed to be guaranteed. However as seen in the future Battletech universe they have thrown out the rules of warfare and really don’t care how much damage is done in order to ‘win’.
Also, I would like to point out it many not be considered a waste of resources as it is a symbol of pride the people have in their society to build in a style that promotes the beauty and strength of their culture.
Washington is a very good example of this – it was originally built in such a manner / style as to create an awe-inspiring sight.
Yes, I agree the retcon does show through – all warships circa 2750 must have a HPG installed the idea they do not is ludicrous.
Quote:
Blake and the money to build the Comstar
Easy – he just appropriated the entire monies of the former Star League / Terran Hegemony Government that was held by the Finance Department as his own – The Star League was dead – The Terran Hegemony was being ruthlessly picked over by the Great Houses so it would have been easy for him to just acquire it all for ComStar.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/18/21 06:41 PM)
|
ghostrider
08/19/21 12:24 AM
45.51.181.83
|
In order for “Comstar” of the future to exist they must have used their new SLDF during the 1st Succession War to eliminate everyone else who has the ability to manufacture them so that they would become the sole manufacturers – and in so doing use their new monopoly as a bully pulpit to get what they wanted.
This is the line of thinking of having them do more then just take out competition for the HPG systems. It could very well have been done to remove a lot of data, such as the higher tech from the houses, blaming it on the other houses during the wars. It would be far easier to bully the IS if Comstar had the highest tech, and the IS was stuck with the low level garbage.
It is possible that ROM came from the SL intel department, meaning the sneak suits and such were part of their equipment. And this leads to asking why that equipment tech isn't part of Comstar/WOB? They didn't lose the tech.
And it leads to the question of why the Comstar improvements to a few things came out much later. I can understand the c3 stuff, as that was new tech at the time of the invasion, but the ecm/ap and such was theirs for over 250 years. Even advancement in weapons should have been in Comstar/WOB arsenals. They had could build warships without an issue. The hidden worlds would not have just come about during WOBs occupation of Terra. If so, there is a huge issue here.
The ejection 'solution' wouldn't be that easy. Limited fuel would suggest simple flight paths. Though the Archer doesn't say it lacks the ejection chair, so I would think the cockpit is far enough into the mech to allow it to punch out the back. Funny how the rules don't deal with oddly placed cockpits like this. Then again, more then a few people would suggest the head armor is in addition to the torso armor.
The Yardships do not have it stated the HPG was added in when the HPG was first built. It makes it sound like it was always part of the yardship.
An additional thought came up with the warships not having them listed, is that some of the newer ones built, like the Cameron line didn't have it listed. As the 2750 TRO suggests it was the latest core made before the SL died, this is suspicious.
|
Requiem
08/19/21 06:01 PM
124.184.134.200
|
In order for ComStar to recognise the power they would wield in the absence of anyone who could manufacture / operate a HPG other than their people – is a high-level Machiavellian thought process.
Yes, I do believe they could have achieved this during the chaos.
However, to remove all technology / knowledge I am still under the belief this is impossible – on a single world it may be achievable, however, when you are discussing thousands of worlds with who knows how many education centres per world, as well as internal education centres for corporations, and military academies etc no this is quite impossible.
Canon would suggest though it was a fortuitous event for ComStar. The IS Houses pounded each other loosing everything in the process whist ComStar – safe on Terra still retained everything. Thus, placing them in a unique position. A position they were determined to keep thus ROM was dispatched with a mandate to make this bad situation worse.
Though I must agree it would not be beyond the realm of impossibility for ROM (former SLDF special forces? Or trained by them) to be sent out on a mission of mayhem.
As for the ‘advanced’ equipment – sneak suits etc – the use of which would only be for very important missions – getting caught by using them too often is just too dangerous when considering their master plan – to reduce technology even further then ride out and establish a Blakean Theocracy under their rule.
That said, given that in the far future we are provided with the 5 hidden worlds concept – then yes the technology of ComStar / WOB must be on par with, just above or just below that of the Clans. The idea that ComStar would decrease every other powers technology whilst not increasing their own simultaneously is beyond belief – they are hidden away, they have the people and the research facilities so they should be increased their technology whilst destroying all others.
Though given the clans predilection for all things military and genetics here they should have the edge here. Though in all other fields of endeavour ComStar / WOB should have the edge.
And yes, I also agree that there is a massive issue herewith regards to technological development.
Quote:
the cockpit is far enough into the mech to allow it to punch out the back
Unique idea – Though this would require cockpit to punch through the armour on the back – given the limited armour there would this be problematic if archer as attacked from the rear now?
The ‘head’ could be emplaced into the shoulders giving it a turtle effect rather than the typical humanoid shape, thus yes I would agree head armour is now torso armour in this case – it is a tool after-all thus it should be able to be modified as per the designers requirements.
Fist few yard-ships – no HPG – though once HPG was created it was quickly adapted into all subsequent yard-ship – and what should have occurred all other ships. Older model yard-ships could have had them placed in at a later date.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/19/21 09:23 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Simply changing some of the data can accomplish removing that tech. Wiring up the power sources so it explodes could well prevent someone from bothering with the schematics ever again. There is a slew of things that could be done, and most would not recognize the issues. It would not be over night, and Comstar did run the coms system. so had great access to anything that was in contact with the HPG network, even using worms and viruses to infect systems that remained off the network.
Most punch out tech assumes you are facing the enemy. And given things like the Marauder cockpit, the idea that they need to blow out torso armor is lessened. If you read the ejection systems of most mechs, they try to land the pilot in the hex directly behind the unit.
The issue with the HPG and Yardships is the fact that nothing is said about retrofitting those built before the HPG network came on line. Not sure if they just missed it, or if it is a typo of large preportions. It does suggest that the HPG network on vessels came after the Yardship was thought of.
One thing to consider of the torso cockpits. The game allows you to mount the dual cockpit inside the torso, yet you still have head armor. Does that mean those types are like the Thunderbolt's head? Or is it a design issue that messes with the torso's structure?
|
Requiem
08/20/21 02:16 AM
124.184.134.200
|
Quote:
Simply changing the data
Make sure ALL the data is destroyed at the same time, as if it is checked against another source from off world or with another expert on the topic then they will know it was sabotage and start an investigation.
Care must be taken to ensure the blame falls with their enemy and not ComStar.
Quote:
Ejection system
If it was me, I would want control over where I land – once parachute is deployed I would like to have control and steer in what I hope is a safe spot. Saying that it is going to be at a certain location every-time makes it predictable hence you will either be a POW or dead as when you land the enemy opens-up!
Dual cockpit – how about both? – if the cockpit is like the ‘phantom jet’ fighter front and back - the front cockpit is situated like the Thunderbolt and the rear is similar to that of head as it is slanted so the back pilot is higher than the front.
However, if the cockpit is like the ‘intruder jet’ fighter - side by side then this will cause some debate and controversy.
Quote:
yard-ships
Clarity on the subject is required yet again.
Though the idea they would only place a HPG on salvage / repair ship is ridiculous - in all reality it should be every ship of the line.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/20/21 12:21 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The concept that any data being sent thru the HPG network or connected to it, would be changed to one set up. Or even having multiple different set ups would confuse and frustrate anyone trying to confirm anything. Not sure how much communications were going on between worlds on trying to fix some 'typos' during the war.
The books suggest the ejection seat is just like aircraft of today. It is designed to blow the head armor away and jet the pilot up and away from the unit. As there is supposed to be parachutes to slow the decent, it would figure they have some control. The main thing is the ejection behind the unit is on the assumption the pilot can't do anything, like steer the seat. Given the mechwarriors normal garb with piloting, some worlds like Tharkad would be dangerous to eject from a mech.
As this is just an emergency system to get the pilot away from a dying mech, it would not have to be large or bulky, which means the cockpit can handle more things like sensor screens and sealed environmental support.
I agree that all mechs should eventually be redesigned in order to use a full head ejection system, the game doesn't think the cost is worth it. And this is also not touching on if the head armor is damaged. This could well prevent the ejection mechanism from working, on up to, but not limited to, destroying the cockpit when used. The small cockpit is even more of a problem for space.
The yardships are not the only ones that got an HPG set up on them. It does make sense they would, as they get called to head to other systems to deal with issues. Not possible if they are in a system without a normal HPG, once they got set up. So instead of returning to their main yards to be sent out, they can be sent from their last job.
As yardships were retcon material, they should say added in once the tech was set up. The warships in the 2750 were done before the HPG was thought of being put into those units.
The HPG on ships would explain why they were more willing to head thru rarely traveled systems, as you were not wo worried about being stranded if something happened.
But a question does come up with the Black box tech and warships. The Bugeyes would be a candidate for the Black box, but to use it without the FC upgrades would tell everyone it was there. So does that mean the SL had black tech superior to that known to the rest of the IS? Well in this case, as we know they did have better tech.
|
Requiem
08/20/21 04:17 PM
124.184.134.200
|
Quote:
Not sure how much communications were going on between worlds on trying to fix some 'typos' during the war
When it comes to highly sensitive information – they would be very concerned regarding typos – especially if it occurs multiple times.
Quote:
ejection system
Given that mechs are supposed to fight in any environment – including underwater and even in space on lunar surfaces the idea that a parachute would be still utilized is very disturbing. I agree with you, I am also of the view this was not thought through to its logical conclusion - in my opinion, also, all Mechs should have a head ejection system.
Quote:
yard-ships HPG
Yes, this is a good point – ships with HPG would become more strategically flexible to travel through unregistered space-ways to reach their target.
As for Bug-eyes - again issue of range / lag time of message / very small information packet should be considered.
Can you detect a Black Box being used? Does it create an issue that is recognisable as a message being sent?
Yes the SL did have better tech – the question is did they upgrade the earlier model and if they did then why didn’t the Clans continue to upgrade the tech – why was it shelved in favour of the HPG?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/20/21 05:34 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Mechs were pretty unique. Most vehicles don't have ejection seats.
When operating on a vacuum world, they had to be sealed and fusion powered.
Subs were needed for underwater, and they had the escape pods, not ejection seats.
So no. The ejection seats were not good for all the environments the mech operates in. You could disable them when needed, so you didn't eject into a void. Granted it was probably better to die in an explosion the sufficate.
I have and do agree that mechs that can, should have been changed over to full head ejection.
With ships having an HPG on it, sneak attacks thru uninhabited systems would be a lot more common. Even just being covert thru those systems is more likely. Drop off spec ops by a system they don't watch would be more likely to succeed then coming thru the main jump points. I am sure the Bugeyes did this a lot. Pirate points and just sit. They were supposed to be hard to detect the jump signature on them to begin with.
The best guess for the clans not using them is the fact they seem to be used for being sneaky. Dishonorable. You wanted to show you are superior, you send the messages in the open and show the enemy, you don't care if they know.
I would also think that getting rid of them, would prevent the freeborns from being able to talk without the clans knowing what they were saying. Pretty much keeping coms limited to what they watched.
|
Requiem
08/21/21 07:08 AM
124.184.134.200
|
Agreed
- All Mechs should have a total head ejection system.
- Warships + HPGs allows for more Special Services Raiding within the game. Also a more coordinated attack strategy (almost real-time) when it come s to future warfare – Strategic planning / creating reserve marine forces – the entire process of how war is fought will change when HPGs included in warships.
And this is where I believe the entire rules for warships may require a re-write from construction on up, especially since I really do not appreciate many of the images of warships in the game – probably my perception as to warship aesthetics.
I am very adamant on this point when it comes to the Clan invasion …
Once warships are re-entered into the game, there is no way around it, they are now the biggest gun on the battlefield and as such the highest priority target.
Even if the Clan’s don’t use them there is no way for the House Lords to know this – then post Turtle Bay / and the Lyran incident – the Great Houses now have no choice but to engage them with everything they have.
The DC, RR and FC have no choice but to work together – England USA and Russia Vs Germany - a total re-write of the story is required.
All veteran / elite units of the borders will have to be transferred to the front – and in all probability a Maginot Line defensive fortifications will have to be established on every would in direct line of the Clan Advance.
If the Clans do not want their Warships targeted they have but two choices
1. Remove all Warships from the combat operations zone and expel them permanently to the Deep Periphery;
2. A summit of all parties concerned – mediated by ComStar – between all the Great House Lords and all the ilKhan, Khans and Sa-Khans of all the Clans - there they have to hammer out the rules of Warfare – an Ayres Mk 2
Failure to do so will result in one inevitable fact the IS Great Houses will initiate nuclear strikes against clan Warships – in the absence of the IS having warships / my PT craft as a stop gap measure this is the situation everyone will find themselves in.
In my opinion this is the only logical cause of action where the Clans have Warships and the IS doesn’t.
There is no other way around this fact.
This is one of my chief gripes when it comes to the Clan Invasion, and I cannot see any other way around it, if the TPTB don’t want a nuclear war then as at 3050 the IS must have fleets of their own to match the Clans warships so that a naval war can commence.
I am sorry but I will not change my mind on these points – I am very much stuck in the mud when it comes to this.
Sorry but I find the canon story as being bland, lacking depth and totally lacking in the realism / believable department when it comes to this war (and many of the underlying stories) and as such became the catalyst for my Alt universe desire. The entire Clan Invasion was written too fast and with no real thought given in my opinion. Yes I have the books but I do not believe I will ever re-read them again as if I did I would probably end up throwing them against the wall …
It is a great idea, but as is, it needs a total revision of the script (in my opinion that is).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/21/21 11:59 AM
45.51.181.83
|
There is an issue with the summit idea. This requires the clans actually talk with the IS leaders. This is something the clans would not do. There is no respect for the houses from the clans, so talking with them until there is, would be pointless. They are used to war, and losses are going to happen in fights. Unless the numbers of losses exceeds a certain number, they are ok with it.
Basically, they are ok with dying in combat. Their legacy lives on if they genes are accepted into the iron wombs.
As the story line puts it, the clans rarely had warship on warship fights, but they do happen. The clan leaders were reliant on having the warships available for bidding. When Ulric bid away the Direwolf, it shook the clan leaders thought process.
The clans would have responded after a while, but as we don't know how the battles against just dropships went, it is hard to say just how differently they would have responded. I would say adding in more fighters would be the first step. The second would be more assault dropships that were anti fighter in their roll.
The clans did target jumpships, which was a big problem with the IS. With an increased loss of warships, the clans may well have just targeted the jumpships to remove the IS ability to strike back at them. They did so in the beginning to prevent knowledge of them being here in the first place.
Oddly enough, the fact they did strike the jumpships seems to put their superiority complex at odds. Why would they stoop to such a low standard against their own combat challenges to destroy those ships? I thought they wanted the combat, as they said the IS was weak and full of barbarians. The clans were superior, and the most barbarians they destroyed on the border, the less they had to deal with when traveling to Terra. Kill enough, and the war for Terra would be the clans fighting each other for the right, not even having to disgrace themselves fighting the dezgra IS forces.
Comstar was only known to them after contact in the periphery. And the only time they even bothered telling Comstar Terra was their target, was as they were about to finish gobbling up the FRR. And that was only a fluke that came from a chance question.
The story line has a lot of flaws in it. There is no argument from me about that. How to deal with it draws some issues. I am fine with the clans having the big guns, as that is normal with invaders hitting the numerically superior enemy. The issue with warships is they are too big to effectively counter without having your own. And this causes the nuke fests. With mechs and such, you can defeat them without needing to have dropships in order to get to them. Simple mech holes can give you a chance to take one out. Warships can blow apart entire cities in a matter of minutes.
As posts advanced, it seem the flaws from the SL era showed up enough to show the retconned material made things far worse. A few simple changes would remove most of the major flaws in the later storyline.
One simple fact, the HPGs on ships, would have made a huge difference in the periphery fights. Simple find the enemy and send in the fleet to wipe it out. Do it before the enemy can jump out. The nukes would be easier to deal with, as you would still have the orbital weapons available.
Then add in the ability to shift troops relatively quickly to a new world to hit the concentration of forces. Even calling in spec ops to remove issues.
Having ships scattered around a target, would allow you to know where the target was fleeing. If equipped with Ion-Lithium batteries and they were charged, they could only jump twice in quick succession. Even a hot load takes a little time. You can call in reinforcements to engage that target. What happens to armies when their leaders get taken out? Either they get enraged, or demoralized, In the end, they make mistakes.
|
Requiem
08/21/21 10:26 PM
124.184.134.200
|
Quote:
There is an issue with the summit idea. This requires the clans actually talk with the IS leaders.
No not really – two possible routes for this to occur
1. ComStar and 2. Wolf’s Dragoons
Which is worse for the clans – sitting down at a summit to stop a full nuclear war or being caught in the middle of a nuclear war with no training or protection – for the inner sphere such knowledge would have been included in basic as well as history – for the Clans not so much unless you count the wolverine incident.
My bet is the Wardens would demand the Crusaders attend – after all it is their fault the Clans find them in the middle of such a dire situation.
Question – how long would the Clans last in the Inner Sphere if the war turned total nuclear? My bet not very long – and where is the honour in war when you perish in a nuclear inferno? Death in battle surrounded by enemies fighting to the last is glory – whereas being blown off the map by a nuke cannot be considered to be glorious – so why use the genes of someone who fell pray to Inner Sphere barbarians using a nuke on them – from the Clan incompetence would be main catch word for such a warrior to fall in battle by a nuke rather than in single combat. So, no real legacy there.
Quote:
the clans may well have just targeted the jumpships to remove the IS ability to strike back at them
This is a given both sides would now have to use non-standard jump points and hit and run tactics – the entire game now switches to Navy combat if there is no summit.
Quote:
They did so in the beginning to prevent knowledge of them being here in the first place.
That was then, this is now
As for killing off jump-ships they are supposed to be Mongols – wanton destruction comes with the job, the Clans for all their beliefs are not beyond destruction for the sake of destruction no matter how they attempt to justify the decision
Quote:
The clans were superior
Only from a technological point of view – from an ethical and sociological point of view they were a throwback to the dark ages – in all reality the concept of the Clans, as is, should never have seen the light of day unless they are the ultimate bag guy in the story to which the IS must over-come (pedantic plot line).
Sorry but I am really not impressed with the clans as is.
Quote:
And the only time they even bothered telling Comstar Terra was their target, was as they were about to finish gobbling up the FRR
Problem with this statement is the fact that no one even thought to look at a map – and no one even thought hang on these guys think they are the SLDF’s descendants – what would happen if we extend their attack patten all the ay through the IS - what important worlds are in their direct line of attack – what could be their aim if they want to restore the SL as they believe they are the SLDF?
Really? Sorry but this shows that no one gave this any thought whatsoever. This is such a plebian plot twist that I really want to bang mu head against the wall … Focht should have recognised or suggested this could be their ultimate target and he should have investigated from world one – it is not that hard to work it out!
So yes, the story line does have many many many flaws in it.
If warships are to be in the game, then there will be planetary bombardment there is no way of getting around this. So unless the game puts in something to make this impossible then there is no way of stopping it!
TPTB really dropped the ball here - So unless the IS have warships from the start of the Clan Invasion also - you should expect a nuclear war to commence shortly thereafter – there is no other logical response unless the story goes off the rails and becomes very farfetched and unbelievable!
Either allow a mother loving Navy War from the Start or allow nukes into the game. These are the only two real situations here.
And yes, I do completely agree with you – “A few simple changes would remove most of the major flaws in the later storyline. One simple fact, the HPGs on ships, would have made a huge difference.”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/22/21 03:34 AM
45.51.181.83
|
Until it was proven the clans were in contact with Comstar, it was unlikely the IS could contact the clans in a non hostile way. The Dragoons would be problematic, especially depending on when they tried. It was only during the break that the Dragoons said they were from the clans, and by that time, the recall had been done. So it would be unlikely this option would be open.
The what if idea is a problem to say what would happen. Given the story lines implications of the clans, it would turn all against the IS, as they would show they were barbarians like the Crusaders have labeled them. Doesn't matter why they did it, the arrogant clanners would say the IS did it without provocation.
The IS would have reservations about using the nuke as stated in other threads.
The story line says the IS thought the clans were just a large group of pirates that found a large cache of SL units. They did not suspect they were the SL returning as almost anything coming in from the periphery may well have been labeled SL. It is easy to see why they would not believe it was the SLDF.
The clans were more skilled then the IS was. Yes, there were people that could beat them one on one, but the average clanner was a better gunner then the IS pilots were. Which sounds odd, as they had better targeting and weapons. This would make you less skilled, as the equipment would make up for a lack of skills.
The IS did have a navy in the game. They just didn't have battleships. They did have fighter carriers and smaller units. As for the alt, you said it would not follow canon, so the limitations put forth in order to even appear close to canon would be gone.
The problem with keeping warships is the fact that the succession wars would have used them even more. The leaders have shown that paper agreements only last until someone sees they can gain an advantage by breaking it. I dislike the notion, but trying to keep a war game close to real, it is not something you can remove.
|
Requiem
08/22/21 07:32 AM
124.184.134.200
|
Quote:
Until it was proven the clans were in contact with Comstar, it was unlikely the IS could contact the clans in a non hostile way.
ComStar’s people have also been taken as POWs during the invasion – as an organisation of peace they can say to both the Great Houses and the Clans that their people can act as intermediaries in this time of strife …
The Great House will believe such a story as this has occurred many times … and even just recently prior to the Formation of the FC with every Great House …
The Great Houses do not need to know about their agreement on the side with the Clans.
It is possible such as situation can eventuate.
As for the Dragoons …. Who is Khan of the Wolves? Can you really say he would not be open to any solution to rid himself of a nuclear war?
And then there is also Phelan he could also reach out at the same time.
Quote:
it would turn all against the IS
No sorry but I disagree – the wardens would recognise the truth the Crusaders would have to be dragged to the table kicking and screaming …
Still does not change the fact that every invasion force and every garrison must now contend with nuclear bombardment as a first strike option by the IS.
They can call the IS barbarians as much as they want – yet every piece of captured media will say the same thig they started this – with the invasion and Turtle Bay – sooner or later they have to read the IS media or are their watch that incompetent?
For too long this game has only looked at how the clans view war and attempted to make the IS adopt the Clan way of Mech on Mech only, sorry but in this case either the clans recognise their error or face nuclear Armageddon within the IS.
Quote:
The IS would have reservations about using the nuke as stated in other threads.
Sorry but no – will come down to how the message is crafted for media consumption – frame it correctly and the people will believe that nukes are the only way forward to victory. Just recently the press sold a war to the people of the world about WMDs and the invasion went forward … same principle.
Quote:
The story line says the IS thought the clans were just a large group of pirates that found a large cache of SL units.
And when images of Omnis and Elementals and warships come through then what?
Sorry but the idea that they are pirates lasts about 5 minutes before reality sets in.
Quote:
The clans were more skilled then the IS was.
What an absolute load of BS … at single combat only.
Once combined arms tactics of an RCT are bought to bear their ’superiority’ takes a long walk off a very short pier. There is absolutely no way any clan can sustain the loss depletion report – their entire reserves are built around a Sibko system where the IS is via an academy and Boot camp!
This may be a very evil thing to say but numbers do not lie the clans may kill more people than the IS but at the end of the day the IS can absorb these losses – the clans cannot!
In a total war setting where the entire economy is switched over to military – USA WW2 – there is absolutely no way the Clans can stand against the economic might of the IS.
And this is the big problem TPTB never under stood economics and logistics when it comes to war it has just been ignored for the main part.
Quote:
The IS did have a navy in the game. They just didn't have battleships. They did have fighter carriers and smaller units.
Where only very small numbers were involved. What I am suggesting is proper Navy war!
Quote:
The problem with keeping warships is the fact that the succession wars would have used them even more.
Construction vs destruction – In my Alt they use hidden bases to manufacture warships ( ever since the prior to the Amaris War) how many bases survived the succession wars and how many ships are being manufactured per year?
It may be difficult to construct but it is not impossible to construct a game that is close to real – it is a question of getting the parameters correct from word one and going from there.
The problem with Canon is there have been too many holes, and too little patches and many of the books reads like a boys own adventure book from the late 1800s.
Rather than trying to build multiple arcs all they really needed was two or three really good arcs over 75-100 years in game time - just look at Warhammer 40K and the Horus heresy arc – what book are they up to? Mid 50’s ? getting the story correct generates sales and generates interest.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/22/21 12:26 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Act as intermediates would cause a lot of problems. For Comstar to be able to send and receive messages from the clans means they have access to the HPG networks on taken worlds. The houses would demand intel on clan forces on those worlds. It would also lead to questions of why those worlds can not be contacted as well as why they were sending 'normal' messages when they were being invaded.
During the first half of the invasion, the clans were all part of one political machine. No one knew there were two factions involved. With nukes being used like the 1st war as well as the fall of the SL, the IS would have probably found the clans homeworlds and hit them all, not just the crusaders. So once the nukes started being used, the entire war changes. The clans would not give any mercy, and would start destroying anything that looked functional. The clans had the ability to make nukes, and would probably start making and using them if the IS cut loose with them. Some medical proceedures require radioactive isotopes, so they would not have shelved being able to use it.
If you don't try to follow canon, then nukes being fired off like an LRM 20 can be done.
It might be best to just have the clan civil war wipe out their warship capabilities and have the Helm Core data on them so corrupt, it was useless.
Well if you even use the clans in your alt if not following canon.
The issue is once you say that nukes are the only way forward, they will continue to think that, and use them for any sort of time they will lose a fight. It become easier to do things after the first time. Soon, you become immune to the effects.
Funny thing about elementals is the SL did have power armor. This could have been from a research or manufacturing base in the area, as no one knew what the SL had in the 3049 era. Warship graveyards do happen, and with the right information, like a core or even SL facility like Camelot Command, it is possible to refit and restore warships. Again, no one knew just what the SL left behind. This includes Comstar, which took over Terra and what was left of the quartermasters network.
The clan warriors were better gunners and pilots. They were trained with one on one, as it was the only way to show who is superior. This helped prevent the huge losses of battles as it gives the opponent time to surrender. Which is what was said a few times. As for the ability to mass fire on a target, the clans could do that as well, though they were reluctant to do so. The clans were reluctant to use things like IDF with missiles, as they were trained to see the target. Some tactics and strategies were considered foreign to their training, so in that aspect they were weaker.
TPTB made the clan weakness so it could be exploited. If they had it set up like the IS, then the clans would have just rolled over the IS and would have been in control of Terra, removing the rest of the future as we knew it. Same with doing the one on one. With the clans growing larger then the original numbers, they would not have stopped adding in positions like they did. Waste is always a part of war. It is why you send in the foot soldiers first. Bleed the enemy of their ammo and cause them to heat up before you send in your mechs. Sacrifice and distraction.
I agree that the IS should have had more and better aerofighters. That logic isn't in question. But in order to have a land battle game, forces had to be able to reach the surface of worlds. So the proper defenses of a world would prevent this. I am of the mind that if the enemy can't reach your world, then you don't need to waste so much money rebuilding damage done to it.
|
Requiem
08/22/21 05:31 PM
124.184.134.200
|
Quote:
For Comstar to be able to send and receive messages from the clans means they have access to the HPG networks on taken worlds.
Yes they are acting as intermediaries with Clan oversight – or the clans are reaching out on their own – no real problem with this.
This is a peace summit it is not a spy mission – demanding intel would be impossible.
Remember this is just like the 13 days with Cuban Missile Crisis – both sides using intermediaries to stop the approaching war.
The ability to formulate a quick resolution is in the best interest of the Clans and the Inner Sphere! Yes you can ask questions about what is happening in occupied Clan held space – my bet is you have spies in there and they are sending coded messages so it should not be a real surprise as to what is going on.
Quote:
During the first half of the invasion, the clans were all part of one political machine.
Er, no, they were never and will never be ‘one political machine’ – they are individual clans with either wardens or crusaders in ascendance / vying for power – any sign of weakness and they will be either destroyed or absorbed by a rival Clan.
They are individual Cells with absolutely no real leader despite the idea of there being an il-Khan – they all have their own agenda!
Quote:
No one knew there were two factions involved.
Wolf’s Dragoons knows there are factions involved!
Quote:
the IS would have probably found the clans homeworlds and hit them all
Another good reason to have the summit … stop it now before it takes on a life of its own and war begets more war in a never ending cycle of nuclear apocalypse …
Quote:
The clans would not give any mercy, and would start destroying anything that looked functional.
And the IS would return in kind … 1st Succession War all over again ….. so unless someone is willing to stand up and propose a second Ares Conventions by establishing a code of conduct during war then there will be only Nuclear devastation.
There is no way around it – if one side has warships the other side will use nukes – being a black void navy there is no way around not having warships they will be a part of the game. So unless there are rules of warfare that everyone agrees to they will be nuclear devastation as per the 1st Succession War.
There is no other way if one side has warships and the other doesn’t – In my opinion this is perhaps one of the major problems of the game during the Clan invasion that made the invasion story an absolute joke, and this should have been fixed years ago at the beginning!
Quote:
It become easier to do things after the first time. Soon, you become immune to the effects.
Agree – this is why it must be nipped in the bud as soon as possible before it takes on a life of its own!
So in all reality there are only two real viable solutions to fix this issue
1. Provide all IS Great Houses the ability to manufacture warships circa 3040 onwards – thus by the time of the Clan Invasion Naval engagements can commence, or
2. Brief nuclear exchange followed by a summit between all great houses, ComStar and the Clans
Yes I agree – no one knew what was left behind after Kerensky departed … sooner or later the Great Houses should have formed small independent units with old maps and history professors and sent them out with one mission to find out exactly what was left behind – over a couple of hundred years who knows what they could find.
Quote:
As for the ability to mass fire on a target, the clans could do that as well, though they were reluctant to do so.
Really? RCTs have trained for years on the principle so f combined armed tactics … what happens to the clans when battalions of artillery open up on them simultaneously whist being bombed by who knows how many conventional bombers ….
Sorry but the clans Sibko system cannot provide replacement numbers in the quantities required
Quote:
TPTB made the clan weakness so it could be exploited.
And yet in every engagement quickly ignored all conventional forces and went for Mech on Mech and turned the entire war into a complete shambles.
Quote:
If they had it set up like the IS, then the clans would have just rolled over the IS and would have been in control of Terra
Problem is sometime after the half-way mark to the three-quarters mark most clans will run out of front-line forces as they are all now garrison forces.
As stated, the invasion was not thought through! There are just too many issues for the Canon version to be considered anything but a farce of a war.
Quote:
But in order to have a land battle game
And what this seems to create is a view of looking at a single tree rather than the entire forest.
If the game is supposed to be just Mech on Mech then justify the reasons for it – create weapons that make all other forms of military equipment obsolete.
Quote:
I am of the mind that if the enemy can't reach your world, then you don't need to waste so much money rebuilding damage done to it.
Improving and enhancing the world will require money as well.
This is also a massive problem with the game – economics within the game is non-existent.
As many of the realms now would almost be unrecognisable once you bring economics into the game … Banks, Merchants, Military Industrial Complex, Food and Logistics would take on a dimension of their own.
People would actually have to study every world’s economy and the dependence they have with other worlds around them that is currently lacking from the game.
Might be time to start my own game rather than trying to fix this one …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/22/21 07:03 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The fact that Comstar did have access to worlds taken by the clans is the key here. For the leaders of the IS states that were hit, Comstar would have been telling them no information was available, as they lost contact with their stations. To suggest otherwise, would mean Comstar was sympathetic to the invaders. And it would also bring up issues with agreements for emergency coms. Units on those worlds would have tried to send out those coms and pay for them, yet they were not delivered. Catch 22 here.
During the first half of the invasion, the clans were all part of one political machine. No one knew there were two factions involved.
The second sentence here covers the meaning. So again, no one in the IS that was talking knew the clans were not one political machine.
Given the brainwashing of the clan people, they would more likely being a full genocide of the IS. The history of the IS has so many times where each side just nuked each other, the clans would not believe the barbarians would adhere to an agreement like this. Just as the SL negated the Ares convention, so to would the IS states negate any sort of agreement. Actions speak louder then words here.
Sorry but the clans Sibko system cannot provide replacement numbers in the quantities required
What does this have to do with the fact the clans can mass fire on targets? When the Falcons killed Ulric, they did just that. Grand Melees did happen in fights as well. It is when they could, the remained one on one.
And yet in every engagement quickly ignored all conventional forces and went for Mech on Mech and turned the entire war into a complete shambles.
That is the history of the game. Few people wanted to fight tanks, so they stuck it with mech on mech. There is no reason to think the story would drift from this. It is agreed that non mech forces are almost always ignored in fights, until the story is required to use them. It isn't just the clan invasion.
If the clans were set up like the IS, they would have used all their forces they could get, and not had the stupid bidding wars before the invasion. There would be no limit on what they used, nor would they have left out any clans. They would have come in enmasse and just rolled over the IS. This would also include warships just bombarding anything that proved resistant to ground assaults. If would be like the DC against the FC in the 1st war. Though with the clans, it would not be stopped due to soldiers morals. The clanners would enjoy removing the freeborn barbarians from worlds. They can always rebuild them.
The clans had one major advantage in a war of destruction. The IS didn't know where they were at. The exodus road was reviled only after the truce fight. Again, the limited resources of the IS would hamper any sort of attempt to find them. Comstar would have a good idea, given they should have known the systems the Outbound Light would be searching. And given the fact Walterly was excited to try and use the clans to force the houses into submission, it is likely she would have aided the clans still and did a coms blackout with the houses. That is how out of touch with reality she was.
The mech was supposed to be the weapon that made all obsolete. The problem is, they aren't. Kings of the battlefield, yet that only seems to be one on one.
Economics was never something they wanted to get into detail with, as it shows the entire house is built with cards on quicksand. The LC being the economic giant, should have been able to just out build everyone. Even with inept commanders, they should have won by brute force. Simple dropship hordes. The CC and even the DC for part of it, would have fallen due to an inability to keep a full economy working. Limits on what is acceptable would limit just what could be done.
Guns being a main factor here. The CC and DC would want to keep guns from the populace, yet that means no one would have them to go guerilla against an invader. It would all be military units. The negates a lot of defensive units. The gangs used by the CC would be worthless against an invader. Even just limiting what the populace can buy and use would destroy most of the economy.
|
Requiem
08/22/21 10:37 PM
124.184.134.200
|
Quote:
To suggest otherwise, would mean Comstar was sympathetic to the invaders.
No I do not believe so, the Clans are using some of their POWs as intermediaries to get a message through – remember Genyosha Vs Kell Hounds – they captured a soldier and used him as an intermediary to set the time and place for their duel. Same principle.
So no, I do believe there is a catch 22 here it is all on the up and up.
Quote:
no one in the IS that was talking knew the clans were not one political machine.
It all comes down to when the Dragoons spill the beans and let the IS know they were once the Clans Recon force.
The longer they sit and say nothing the worse it will be for them – in all reality the Dragoons should have supplied this information way earlier than in the books – also if it comes out that they had warships and did not let the IS know this there will be payback one way or another – politicians and rulers have long memories when it comes to vengeance!
Quote:
Given the brainwashing of the clan people, they would more likely being a full genocide of the IS.
Sorry I do not believe this is going to be a clockwork orange scenario. As in the event of Genocide there is no option but to initiate the full nuclear 1st succession war on steroids scenario.
Also the time required to actually complete such a scenario would be high as well as the psychological toll this puts on individuals. So unless they are going to use a biological weapon specifically designed for a human DNA this will get messy very fast, and it will also kill off the game as I doubt anyone would want to engage in a game of mass genocide I know I would walk away at even the mere suggestion.
As for the Ares convention – depends on the ruler as well as the soldiers under them as to how long it is expected to last.
Quote:
Few people wanted to fight tanks, so they stuck it with mech on mech.
Then why have TROs why have RCTs – if it is not used then ditch it from the game.
If it is in the game then use it. Having it in the game and yet ignoring it from the point of view of the invasion just turns the entire clan invasion into a far worse joke than it currently is!
Other wise why are we discussing Nukes, warships, fighters, elementals etc – as if it is just Mech on Mech you might as well just throw everything else away!
Quote:
they would have used all their forces they could get, and not had the stupid bidding wars before the invasion.
These are the rules the clans established – Remove them then all the wars between the Clans are now no longer circle of equal battles they are massive wars – in all reality I doubt the clans would have bothered to invade as they would be too engrossed in killing each other if this was the case.
Again the idea that the clans would just invade with no limit would require how much in logistics to pull off and would initiate another Nuclear 1st succession war scenario. So rebuilding worlds that glow in the dark is going to be an interesting prospect.
Walterly - only a deranged fool would go down this path, Focht will just have to execute her earlier.
Yes the clans home worlds were a secret and yet how long would that last – sooner or later the IS will discover this information.
Economics – yes it is bad – but is far worse than this – ComStar rules communication – so what happens if there is ‘ComStar’ that rules all the banks?
Also after being engaged in war for how many centuries that are a very large amount of people who’s wealth and prosperity is predicated upon the continuance of the war , hence peace is not something they would want to contemplate – thus they would buy the contracts of mercenaries to continue the war and then there are poor worlds close to the borders who are given grants by the rich to buy weapons and continue the war – trapped in a vicious cycle that in order to keep their people fed they have to do all the fighting …
The medieval society is way harsher than that depicted in the battletech universe.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
|
|
Extra information
|
2 registered and 110 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 14416
|
|
|
|
|
|
|