Editing User talk:Ocherstone

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-- [[User:New user message|New user message]] ([[User talk:New user message|talk]]) 17:21, 30 January 2020 (EST)

== References in Headers ==

Hey, just a note: while I don't have a specific policy or procedure to point to, it's generally considered poor practice to put references in headers.  They are better put at the end of the text that the reference applies to.  Thanks!--[[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 15:21, 28 June 2022 (EDT)

==Dark Wing Cluster==
Hiya, I'm a bit confused as to why you moved [[Dark Wing Cluster (Clan Jade Falcon)]] to [[Jade Solahma (Clan Jade Falcon)]]? Can you provide some context? Also, the article text still treats the subject as named Dark Wing and discusses that name, which needs to be adjusted if the move remains. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 03:00, 4 September 2022 (EDT)

:I will lead with people questioning wiki edits often seem...annoyed to me. Defensiveness, irritated at being questioned, whatever it is, I don't intend to for my response to read negatively either. You asked for context, so take the following as such, please. The Dark Wing Cluster fights and ends. They're stated as "old" and "tested-out" warriors in the Irregulars Scenario. It is not then found in the Jade Falcon Sourcebook or ERA 3052. Solahmas are called Dark Wing Clusters. That they are related is not a leap, though I believe you know as well as I do that it won't be found anywhere that they are explicitly the same. Could there be two Clusters of washed up warriors in a premier front line Jade Falcon Galaxy? Sure. That seems to go in the face of what we know. I think think the much more likely explanation is they're the same.  Personally, I like that they are a Dark Wing when given a mission to go die on.  But that doesn't fit with FM: Crusaders saying the Solahma Clusters are "Dark Wing" designated.  If they are to be reverted, a lot of the information that I simply combined from the two (with little care for making them fit perfectly, admittedly) isn't clearly stated either, such as The Dark Wing's position in The Jade Falcon Galaxy. If an explicit source is going to be required, then so be it. Granted, I took a gamble. [[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]]) 10:47, 4 September 2022 (EDT)

==Drake Allin==
Hey, I noticed that you added "Drake Allin" to the [[Allin (Bloodname)]] article a couple of years back, but I tried checking the reference you provided and I don't see any mention of them there. There's no "Drake Allin" on p. 40 of Invading Clans. Any chance you remember where you originally found them? --[[User:Arthinas|Arthinas]] ([[User talk:Arthinas|talk]]) 18:26, 26 November 2022 (EST)
:I'm trying to go back through my sources. I wouldn't just conjure that, but beats me where I actually saw it. I have a memory of a phonebook-like listing of him, but Wolf and Jade Falcon sourcebooks come up empty. I'll keep searching though. I have a note in my personal file that he's an Elemental, but again, no source or proof. [[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]])

==Star Colonel stuff==
Hey Ocherstone,

I was just reading the stuff you added to the [[Star Colonel]] article, whilst interesting I do not really think it is in the right place. I think it would be better situated in the [[Trial of Position]] article as the info is more about the ritual than the rank itself.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 16:37, 23 January 2023 (EST)

==Grand plan for Clan Naval Forces==
Hey Ocherstone,

Just wondering if there is a larger plan for the Clan Naval Forces you are splitting off. As is, I am not convinced that the split off articles are an improvement on what we already had. I do think that naval forces should be treated as a seperate branch of a nations military with both the Clans and the Inner Sphere BUT I think we need a better format than the current datadump style.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 14:24, 16 February 2023 (EST)

:If it needs to be with the touman pages, that's fine. In my view, ground forces are seen through the timeline and there's not a great way to do that with naval forces besides listing them repeatedly. If they're going to be shown, which I think is valuable as a snapshot into the forces available each era, then this was my best option, without increasing the length of each's touman listing an insane amount. [[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]]) 19:51, 16 February 2023 (EST)

::Hey Ocherstone,
::Just a heads up that I took out the list of naval units from the Raven Alliance article. realistically having a datadump list on the nation page and a link to a an identicle datadump list article doesn't make sense. So I have left the link so we can develop the seperate list into a proper "navy" article. I trust given your last reply about not repeating the lists the ultimate goal is something similar to the [[Draconis Combine Admiralty]] article.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 17:17, 24 February 2023 (EST)
:::I was keeping it there until I fixed the Touman page. I'm just updating to the last date on the Force listing page and hadn't noticed the ground forces were updated to 3145. I moved and replaced to the latest date right after.[[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]]) 17:23, 24 February 2023 (EST)
::::Ok no problem. Also as a side question, do you know if the Clans ever use the term "Navy" for their naval branch or is "Naval Reserve" the official name?--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 17:28, 24 February 2023 (EST)
:::::Naval Force or Naval Assets for their overall forces. I've never seen "Navy" all by itself. Reserve is always used for a Home or Garrison Fleet (or entire fleet if they only use for defense), and Adjective (Assault, Attack, Strike) Squadron or (Adj) Naval Star. I'm sure there's some variance we can find, but I can say no solo "Navy" anywhere unless used as "black-water navy." [[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]]) 17:36, 24 February 2023 (EST) 
::::::edit: See, I say that and then double check: the Cloud Cobras say in FM: WC "...we field a considerable navy." So, shit. So not as a title, but still. [[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]]) 17:41, 24 February 2023 (EST)
:::::::Hell the whole clan naval naming thing is a lot more complex than I anticipated! I only asked because I couldn't ever reember seeing the term Navy in relation to them!--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 17:59, 24 February 2023 (EST)
:If I might join in, don't Clan naval forces fall under Toumans as the ground forces do? Having a separate page is good for conciseness, but they organisation-wise they seem to belong with the Toumans. Term-wise, they also usually seem to refer to them as "Naval Reserve" regardless of how they're used (just checking Crusader Clans and the Falcons, Spirits, Adders, Horses, and Wolves use it, and in Warden Clans the Cobras, Coyotes, Bears, Vipers and Wolves-in-Exile use it too, so it seems to be the most common term). Just my two cents. [[User:Ismiril|Ismiril]] ([[User talk:Ismiril|talk]]) 09:23, 12 March 2023 (EDT)
::They are a part of the touman, and have all stayed in the touman page, at least their latest roster. I've added "see main page" redirects to each so far. Each of the pages of "Clan INSERT Naval Forces" that I've created COULD go under the touman page. I think it adds a lot of length and unnecessary information/references and can be its own separate page. There will be huge lists of WarShips that way, even if you remove my disposition tags right after. There's no other way I see to show the information. If I'm wrong, so be it. I have the information I've gathered, even if no one else wants it. As for "Naval Reserve", the Clans don't have a great rule. Their Naval Touman is their Naval Reserve. When they're sent out, they're called an Attack Naval Star, or 9th Pursuit Squadron or whatever else, but yes, are listed as part of the Naval Reserve if they're putting around the Homeworlds since most aren't blasting each other with WarShips. If they're sent on Bandit duty, they're removed from the Naval Reserve listings. Wolves call theirs Alpha Naval Reserve, why when there's not a Beta Reserve? Because consistency is not the last 40 years of BattleTech's greatest strength.  Also my 2 cents  [[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]]) 09:39, 12 March 2023 (EDT)
:::Things like "Attack Naval Star" seem like unit designations similar to how clusters relate to galaxies. They get detached for duty because the Clans largely historically viewed them as background support, but I just wanted to point out that "Naval Reserve" does seem to be the most common term. I admit I didn't find it among some smaller clans like the Mandrills and Hellions. That said, the Wolves did have a Bravo Naval Reserve. One citation for it is page 157, Field Manual Crusader Clans. All that said, I do appreciate that you're collecting all the naval information.[[User:Ismiril|Ismiril]] ([[User talk:Ismiril|talk]]) 09:52, 12 March 2023 (EDT)
::::Alpha NavalReserve and Bravo Naval Reserve are listed in "Falcon and the Wolf" pg 44 as JumpShip Stars (with only the Fuego Lobo and a Volga attached, and the list of JumpShips). The Naval Reserve is only those two JumpShip Stars according to that book. Then no warShip listing in that Deployment List in Crusader Clans. So for the Wolves, the Naval Reserve is only JumpShips. The WarShips are named the WarShip fleet on 139. More proof of how unreliable the listings are, and how much diagreement there can be. [[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]]) 10:01, 12 March 2023 (EDT)
:::::A better source is the Wolf Clan Sourcebook, "Falcon and the Wolf" is full of errors and names for ships that don't exist. At least we know now why they call it Alpha Naval Reserve now. Could compare it to how other clans (Cobras, Coyotes, Adders, etc) use the term. However, "Naval Forces" may indeed be the most appropriate term since it is generic enough. [[User:Ismiril|Ismiril]] ([[User talk:Ismiril|talk]]) 10:20, 12 March 2023 (EDT)
:As an Admin, the way I want things organised on Tourman pages is to treat the Clan fleets in a similar manner to Galaxies. So this Warship Fleet and the Reserve Fleet of a given Clan would be counted as equal to a Galaxy. Things like a Naval Attack Star would be similar to a Cluster. As such this formation (and Clusters in general) should NEVER be listed on the Tourman page. The reason being that the Tourman page is a top level overview. The Fleet (or Galaxy) level articles should have a Composition history section. Individual ships should never be mentioned at the tourman level because they are mentioned at Fleet (galaxy) level or Naval Star (Cluster) if we have the information to do so.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 10:17, 12 March 2023 (EDT)
::Makes sense, I was thinking of them as a "galaxy" formation too. [[User:Ismiril|Ismiril]] ([[User talk:Ismiril|talk]]) 10:21, 12 March 2023 (EDT)

Like the Effort-  I think your Naval Forces looks really good so far!  Keep up the good work.  It was mentioned somewhere about doing a "Composition of the Warships in the Exodus Fleet" as there is no direct tally, just the 402 warships note in the Operation Exodus page.  Something where you go down every ship class of the Star League and the numbers known (if possible) in the fleet.  Just a thought--[[User:Orc Warrior|Orc Warrior]] ([[User talk:Orc Warrior|talk]]) 23:43, 20 March 2023 (EDT)
:Thank you. Honestly, that was one of the reasons I started, but I have slowly realized it will be a lot of guesswork and conjecture. The circa 3057 habit of saying 2 Fredasas here and 1 York there without giving a name, the entirety of the vessels that stayed in the Pentagon (also largely without names) in KLONDIKE, and anything written about the Absorbed or Annihilated Clans in the Golden Century means I'd be off by at least one or two dozen by my guess. That could be a decent percentage of known vessels, and I'd have a large number of nebulous unknown vessels. I could assume some unnamed are later named (Smoke Jaguar Naval Stars), but something like the absorbed Mongoose vessels won't have an answer until it has an answer. Plus it would change with each historical reference and could get so out of date so quickly. It's something I would like to know but probably won't satisfy others or me. If someone wants to work on it, though, I'm happy to throw in, and hopefully what I've done is a decent foundation. [[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]]) 11:57, 21 March 2023 (EDT)

Well when it comes to the Exodus Fleet composition, I think the emphasis should NOT be on what the fleet will become, but on what the fleet was when it departed the Inner Sphere under General Kerensky. With the focus on the stated 402 warships that are directly cited as being in the fleet.   While I know that there are many warship classes that have a direct number cited that would stand (for example, 18 McKennas; 30 Pontemkins, 7 Texas, 12 Volgas, 6 Avatars) there are also warship classes where numbers are given but are not set in stone (I think the quote is nearly 40 Sovetski Soyuz were in the Exodus Fleet).   Also would be those ships where we are not given a number and vagueness (for example, the Lola III is quoted as being the second most numerous warship type in the fleet but we don't know what the most numerous was to get started).   For the sake of this project, I would also cite that under BattleTech definitions, the Newgrange hardships would qualify as Warships under the definition given.   And yes, there are those where sources can place individual numbers in (like the Farragut or Monsoon Battleships).  I think as long as at the end of the day it ends at 402 warships departing the Inner Sphere.   Good luck.  And again, great work on the Clan Naval Toumans.  --[[User:Orc Warrior|Orc Warrior]] ([[User talk:Orc Warrior|talk]]) 23:09, 21 March 2023 (EDT)

===Essay===
Your article about Clan Naval Forces was moved to [[Essay:Clan Naval Forces]], i.e. it now has Essay status. As an essay, it is considered "your" article and others are discouraged from editing it. I would like to ask your permission about something though: I have long maintained that the WarShip and JumpShip numbers given for the exodus fleet are demonstrably unreliable. The main argument is that this was a count of the fleet as it had assembled at New Samarkand - but we don't know who counted or how it was counted and most importantly, we know for a fact that there were vanguard and rearguard flotillas as established in ''[[Living Legends]]'' that either didn't move through New Samarkand at all, or at least didn't assemble and jump out with the main fleet. I would like to add a paragraph outlining this to the Essay. Would that be okay with you? [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 09:14, 29 June 2023 (EDT)n
:Awesome. I'm sure I haven't read every warship passage, so I welcome where I'm either blind or wrong. Appreciate it. [[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]]) 09:27, 29 June 2023 (EDT)

== Bibliography ==

Hey Ocherstone,

Just want to point out that you missed the Bibliography section of the [[Evangeline Clarke]] article. All articles need that section as well as the References section so we can cite our sources and have them checked--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 17:09, 12 June 2023 (EDT)

:Yeah, I will try to be better about that. [[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]]) 19:24, 12 June 2023 (EDT)

== Award ==

Hey Ocher,

I just want to say thanks for clearing up some of the "Fred mess" on the [[Ardan Sortek]] article. I have installed an award board on your user profile!--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 08:09, 29 December 2023 (EST)
* [[File:AP.jpg|All Purpose Award, 1st ribbon]]
:My thanks. I'm not the greatest type editor, but I tried my best. I hate to destroy anyone's contributions (I want a  'yes, and...' kind of reputation) but Ardan was particularly terrible. I could not abide. [[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]]) 23:15, 29 December 2023 (EST)

::Just want to express a little appreciation for your time updating and cleaning up the ship pages. --[[User:Csdavis715|Csdavis715]] ([[User talk:Csdavis715|talk]]) 10:53, 14 May 2024 (EDT) [[File:RAA.jpg|Random Act of Appreciation Award, 1st ribbon]]
:::I second this sentiment.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 11:13, 14 May 2024 (EDT)
::::Thanks, folks. If I can hit something better, just yell, but I'm committed to standardizing these things if it kills me. [[User:Ocherstone|Ocherstone]] ([[User talk:Ocherstone|talk]]) 12:15, 14 May 2024 (EDT)