My Review on the War of Reaving (Some spoilers)

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Karagin
08/19/11 12:27 AM
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Okay the new sourcebook War of Reaving is indeed an interesting read. Starts off well and gives a nice look at the Home World Clans. The follow of the writing reads well and goes into a lot of detail.

As with any source book there are limits to what can be put into them, so this book is not an end all to the events, it is a good guide to the events. The art work, again this always subjective, well wasn't what I expected. Call me old school or what ever, but I would rather see hand drawn (or even computer drawn) art work versus photo-art of miniatures. To me that takes away from the overall quality of the product. A few color pages of the events shown via a miniature set up at say GenCon would have been better.

A couple of story plot points leave me shake my head. First up is the genetic viruses. I am no expert, but I doubt very much if even the Clans genetic wizards can make a tailored genetic viruses that targets a single genome type for a certain blood line. Human DNA is very complex and given that it takes mutation centuries to take hold and be productive a tailored viruses is not likely to be as effect as TPTB claim. Your mileage may indeed vary and some may find the whole thing cool and easily excepted.

Second point...hidden armies and societies...really this is getting beat to death in the Battletech Universe. Okay let's see Amaris had his hidden army, then we see the SLDF run off form the Clans and spend 300 years or so building up their military might, okay that one is a least semi-believable, then ComStar has their hidden army, okay pretty much left over SLDF forces etc...to a point this believable but as I said to a point. Then we have the WoB and their hidden army or semi hidden...and now we have not only a hidden army, but a hidden society as well, hidden in that it was NOT out in the open. Then add in that the Dark Caste because a breeding ground for mechwarriors etc...while they do indeed have these elements, the question comes up of is one of how reliable are they and would a group be willing to risk their revolution or coup in the hands of these folks, seem that for TPTB this not an issue and some how this group can out fight elite and veteran warriors. The idea that the Clan leadership both political and military both can miss the facts that money (granted not something the Clan fully worries about) and resources are all going to something and not have even a remote hint is starting to get old as well. Toss in the rebirth of Clan Burrock and once can see that the hidden army plot line has been beat six feet under. Again your mileage may indeed vary.

All of this harks back to a point I brought up years ago, the possibility of the lower castes revolting, many of the now PTB and many here said nope could not happen, the Clan social set up makes it unlikely and given that a military response would end it before it got started. Well now we see that not only does the lowest caste revolt, but they are fully aided by the scientist caste of almost every Clan, and again the folks in charge just miss all of this. I am starting to wonder if this is being done just to drive the plot forward or are TPTB saying that humans will lose the ability to think by the 30th and 31st centuries role around. We have these "rebels" running around with state of the art weapons and equipment aka new Protomechs and while they don't have full blown Omnis, they even manage to build Battlemechs, kind think folks would notice this...but hey you have a whole star system that is both the dumping grown for the Dark Caste and a haven for the Bandit Caste nice tucked right next to the Clan Homeworlds and no one does anything about it...given what we know about the Clans, I find it hard to grasp how this could be and yet do so well given the odds and the factors of why most of the folks are in these two castes to start with. Add in the tailored virus and all and you have a bad SciFi Channel B movie plot.

The mechs and new weapons are indeed interesting and nicely written up. I do like the NOVA ECM Computer System, since this is one area that BT has failed to do much with. The new ATMs are nice and over all things are present well enough for anyone to grab them and go right to the maps and duke it out.

The new Protomechs, okay given that many of us older players (older as in playing since BEFORE the Clans showed up), we all have heard of or used or designed mechs under 20 tons. Now it seems that the Protomechs have crossed over into this area fully. While this is a nice take on things and the art work looks much better for them, more could be done with these in a broader showing.

Then end of the book does bring things to a nice close, we get a run down on what all of the Clans are doing (those that are left) and we see that a new Clan comes to life, as well as changes to how the Clans view things, since we now have two groups of Clans. The maps were interesting, it would be nice to maybe see a map at some time showing what each Clan actually holds etc...

Over all the book was a good effort to show the events of the Clans internal wars and changes. It does given enough info to allow players to catch up and gain insight. The campaign rules are well done, they are setup nicely and give you a starting point. This adds a lot to the book and lets you take it right to the table and see who can do better or worse.

One last thing, for the PDFs, really would be nice to see the back cover as just that the back cover, not the second page into the PDF...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Prince_of_Darkness
08/24/11 01:32 PM
75.170.100.147

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Ah, the Wars of Reaving. Personally, I really liked this book, since it used some of the crazier conspiracy theories in Interstellar Players without going "too far".

Just so I can hit on everything Karagin, I'll have to break your argument up a bit. Hope you don't mind, but there are some Sociological Factors I feel like I need to address.

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Okay the new sourcebook War of Reaving is indeed an interesting read. Starts off well and gives a nice look at the Home World Clans. The follow of the writing reads well and goes into a lot of detail.




I think Ben Rome is a good writer too. He's kinda like my ADD- when it gets a hold of something, it ain't letting go.

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As with any source book there are limits to what can be put into them, so this book is not an end all to the events, it is a good guide to the events. The art work, again this always subjective, well wasn't what I expected. Call me old school or what ever, but I would rather see hand drawn (or even computer drawn) art work versus photo-art of miniatures. To me that takes away from the overall quality of the product. A few color pages of the events shown via a miniature set up at say GenCon would have been better.




I agree wholeheartedly. While there were many pictures that worked real well (the one that sticks out in my mind is a Kodiak on some later Page, and the first image including a Predator) nearly any one of those pictures that showed a base was a big turn off for me. What I find sad is how easy it would be to get around it- just take the picture, print it, and then trace it, adding smaller details wherever you want. BAM! ART!

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A couple of story plot points leave me shake my head. First up is the genetic viruses. I am no expert, but I doubt very much if even the Clans genetic wizards can make a tailored genetic viruses that targets a single genome type for a certain blood line. Human DNA is very complex and given that it takes mutation centuries to take hold and be productive a tailored viruses is not likely to be as effect as TPTB claim. Your mileage may indeed vary and some may find the whole thing cool and easily excepted.




Well, remember that BT runs off 1980's future, when we thought "Hacking" computers was like a video game and your DNA wasn't actually full of leftover crap from past, evolved species (we only use like, 10% of our genome, the rest is leftover stuff from whatever we evolved from).

You are somewhat correct. I can't find my links right now (light up the cray signal) but gene therapy can target very specific gene clusters, and even (in some cases) specific genes, so making the viruses listed actually isn't out of the question- it just matters on how far you are willing to go in making the thing, and what virus samples you have.

But how fast they take hold? Now there's the kicker. While man-made viruses can be retardedly deadly, (the "Curse of Galedon" is actually somewhat mild compared to what can be made) the timeframe is wickedly short from actual infection to death. Of course, we also don't know what kind of viruses and bacteria the clans might have found on those hell-worlds of theirs that could give them some insight.

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Second point...hidden armies and societies...really this is getting beat to death in the Battletech Universe.




Ohh boy, here we go.

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Okay let's see Amaris had his hidden army, then we see the SLDF run off form the Clans and spend 300 years or so building up their military might, okay that one is a least semi-believable, then ComStar has their hidden army, okay pretty much left over SLDF forces etc...to a point this believable but as I said to a point. Then we have the WoB and their hidden army or semi hidden...and now we have not only a hidden army, but a hidden society as well, hidden in that it was NOT out in the open. Then add in that the Dark Caste because a breeding ground for mechwarriors etc...while they do indeed have these elements, the question comes up of is one of how reliable are they and would a group be willing to risk their revolution or coup in the hands of these folks, seem that for TPTB this not an issue and some how this group can out fight elite and veteran warriors. The idea that the Clan leadership both political and military both can miss the facts that money (granted not something the Clan fully worries about) and resources are all going to something and not have even a remote hint is starting to get old as well. Toss in the rebirth of Clan Burrock and once can see that the hidden army plot line has been beat six feet under. Again your mileage may indeed vary.

All of this harks back to a point I brought up years ago, the possibility of the lower castes revolting, many of the now PTB and many here said nope could not happen, the Clan social set up makes it unlikely and given that a military response would end it before it got started.




Don't you think PTB just said that so it would be more of a surprise when it happened later ? ****, the lower castes number in the millions by city and several clans have their warriors come in constant contact with them (i. e. Wolves, Blood Spirits, Adders) so it's wouln't be a stretch to say many "defected".

Anyway, I've got to merge these two together, since this is where the sociology starts up. While I won't get into the subject of hidden forces (we've beat it to death in over 5 different threads I can post) the clans could do it far, far better than anyone else. Why?

1. Clan eugenics. Children are born more than 20 kids to a "Family" (sibko) of only a few older people, are taught to fight and die for their clan since birth, and are, in all purposes, brainwashed. In fact, as stated in "Kerensky was a Dick (and other rants from the Lunatic Fringe)" (Here:http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,172.msg1071.html#msg1071):

Crank it up. Crank it way up. Every 20 years, send a cohort to colonize a new world. We know jumpships are more reliable than wheelbarrows. EXPLORE. EXPAND. EXPLOIT. Send out groups of a hundred thousand settlers aged 20-40. Fit, in the prime of their lives, virile, fertile, bright. They’ve been chosen twice, the best and brightest of the SLDF, scientists and warriors and tradesmen, honed through eugenics. And you can’t colonize the Exodus Corridor. There are worlds there, how else could the original Exodus resupply and recharge, how else could the Clans place way stations with parts of their secret Exodus Road along their transit routes?

Why do the Clans lack for resources? They had worlds they passed by, and the ability to populate them at a phenomenal rate! They can make as many babies as their food sources will support, day in, day out. As long as they survive, as long as they learn that their duty is to expand and settle and prepare the next generation, prepare them to seek out new homes and tame new worlds, they would have been set. THE CLANS HAD EVERY MEANS TO BREAK THEIR BONDS. They could have, if they had done so, had the means to roll over all of the Inner Sphere.


The Society, in my mind, probably did just that, only on a much smaller scale to avoid a chance of discovery. And since the Khans would rarely question the Scientist's goals (after all, they take care of your warrior's health, weapons, and genes, and you aren't specialized in any of that ****) they could have easily "appropriated" a jump ship, a few droppers, and some people for an "Experiment" or "Expedition" that probably would have gone unquestioned.

2. The clans are stupid. Uranium - density stupid. Clan watches are total jokes when it comes to gathering any intelligence, and if you want to know what another army is doing, all you gotta do is ask- the rules of Zellbringen forces them to say.

To make it all the worse, their Caste-based system means that most of the Khans wouldn't know what was going on in the scientists castes, simply because they wouldn't understand it. The Scientists are trained for years in hordes of different fields, whereas most of the Khans have been (or are) warriors of some form. Warriors have no reason to understand how Ferro Fibrous armor is made, or what goes into an Iron womb; that's the egghead's job.

3. The Dark Caste has always been rumored by the Inner Sphere (when more about the homeworld clans was discovered) to be much, much bigger than they thought. And the fact is, with how inherently unstable a caste system would be, and with how many people inhabit the clans themselves, there would always have to be some sort of low-level resistance. Besides, as stated in every clan sourcebook, the clan worlds are shitholes that are densely populated in single areas- there are a lot of places that the "Dark Caste" could hide.

Besides, as stated on page 61 for Van Houten, he barely had two clusters of Society and Star-League era machines. The Society was not well-equipped at all, something I'll elaborate further on.

Quote:

Well now we see that not only does the lowest caste revolt, but they are fully aided by the scientist caste of almost every Clan, and again the folks in charge just miss all of this. I am starting to wonder if this is being done just to drive the plot forward or are TPTB saying that humans will lose the ability to think by the 30th and 31st centuries role around.




Not really. The IS clans didn't have much of an issue (the Jade Falcons, if they hadn't exterminated their scientists, would have had a much more minor issue than believed for instance) and a few of the homeworld clans were somewhat "spared". The Coyotes suffered less than I thought, but that was because their Khan was lied to, and the 'yotes were always deep into science and trying to regain the edge that they had been loosing for several centuries.

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We have these "rebels" running around with state of the art weapons and equipment aka new Protomechs and while they don't have full blown Omnis (Prince: Uhh, what?), they even manage to build Battlemechs, kind think folks would notice this...but hey you have a whole star system that is both the dumping grown for the Dark Caste and a haven for the Bandit Caste nice tucked right next to the Clan Homeworlds and no one does anything about it...given what we know about the Clans, I find it hard to grasp how this could be and yet do so well given the odds and the factors of why most of the folks are in these two castes to start with. Add in the tailored virus and all and you have a bad SciFi Channel B movie plot.




State-of-the-art? You'll have to re-read that again, Karagin; while the Society put their newer Protomechs to good use, what few clusters they had were heavily based on old Star-league era designs they could pull from the Brian Caches and anything they could get their hands on. While they did make heavy use of their homegrown omnimechs, they weren't well-equipped by any means, barely going above a few clusters in total size.

I'd love to see what the RAT's are going to look like; I wouldn't doubt that we'd see some older Omni's like the Woodsman and Coyotyl on there.

And the Tanite worlds? Of course no-one would notice. The Burrocks who originally owned it, as directly stated, kept doing deals when they changed hands to the Star Adders and the Cloud Cobras were none the wiser because of influence. Besides, it's not like the Dark caste would hang signs and banners up declaring who they were- and who would recognize a runaway 'mechwarrior from another clan there anyway?

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The mechs and new weapons are indeed interesting and nicely written up. I do like the NOVA ECM Computer System, since this is one area that BT has failed to do much with. The new ATMs are nice and over all things are present well enough for anyone to grab them and go right to the maps and duke it out.




These really make me happy. The Nova system is just gravy and is a hell of a lot of fun to use, and the iATM's actually make me want to use ATMs now.

Quote:

The new Protomechs, okay given that many of us older players (older as in playing since BEFORE the Clans showed up), we all have heard of or used or designed mechs under 20 tons. Now it seems that the Protomechs have crossed over into this area fully. While this is a nice take on things and the art work looks much better for them, more could be done with these in a broader showing.




Well, Protomechs were kinda stillborn when they came around, since they are most effective when used as supporting pieces and that ideal doesn't fit with the clans at all. For the Society, who used the clan ways of warfare against them very well, they did great- for anyone else, however, They won't do so well.

Quote:

Then end of the book does bring things to a nice close, we get a run down on what all of the Clans are doing (those that are left) and we see that a new Clan comes to life, as well as changes to how the Clans view things, since we now have two groups of Clans. The maps were interesting, it would be nice to maybe see a map at some time showing what each Clan actually holds etc...

Over all the book was a good effort to show the events of the Clans internal wars and changes. It does given enough info to allow players to catch up and gain insight. The campaign rules are well done, they are setup nicely and give you a starting point. This adds a lot to the book and lets you take it right to the table and see who can do better or worse.

One last thing, for the PDFs, really would be nice to see the back cover as just that the back cover, not the second page into the PDF...




Yeah, have to agree with you there. I find that PDF thing odd too.
Venom
10/06/11 02:30 AM
174.253.147.42

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In all fairness I remember +10 years ago doing a paper for Model UN on genome-specific pathologens. It didn't seem that farfetched then and it could be around the corner now-to say nothing of 1055 years from now.

As for another "secret" army, I find it far more believable in the Clans. The lack of oversight due to the nobody-would-dare-step-out-of-line mindset plus the lack of appreciation for lower castes almost assures a Revenge of the Needs type scenario...with genetic viruses and hack attacks instead of playful hijinks.
Wrangler
10/27/11 06:12 PM
108.20.179.149

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I enjoyed the book...horrorified seen Clans Gone Wild.

I never understood, why the Clans never could explore and expand their space (resources). However, with them jumping on top of each other if opporunity came up, there seem to be some logic to it.

It was nice see Rome change up the things, though now we have to wait while t'ill we see if and what the Clans evolve into.

The usage of ProtoMechs (specially with creation of the Ultra ProtoMechs) will make things more interesting for game play. Though i keep wondering if using them in points of 5 (specially the Ultras) will prove to be undoing for the Dark Age universe. Thats alot firepower in Inner Sphere that doesn't have that much in way of 'Mechs.

This to me was the best book so far that come in this year.
When it hits the fan, make sure your locked, loaded, and ready go!
Prince_of_Darkness
11/24/11 09:12 PM
207.224.106.200

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Quote:

In all fairness I remember +10 years ago doing a paper for Model UN on genome-specific pathologens. It didn't seem that farfetched then and it could be around the corner now-to say nothing of 1055 years from now.




Good to know that it isn't out of the realm of impossibility. Really, this is science fiction; why the hell does anyone care if it's not real?

Quote:

As for another "secret" army, I find it far more believable in the Clans. The lack of oversight due to the nobody-would-dare-step-out-of-line mindset plus the lack of appreciation for lower castes almost assures a Revenge of the Nerds type scenario...with genetic viruses and hack attacks instead of playful hijinks.




It was also only about 6 clusters, as said on page 95:

The second objective was to recruit additional help. From extensive analysis, we can
confidently conclude that, aside from the six Galaxies of Coyote troops, the Society had available
to them roughly six Clusters of Bandit and Dark Caste warriors. Most of these Clusters were
ProtoMech and vehicle forces; only two were composed of BattleMechs. After their initial assaults,
the Society knew they needed additional bodies to fill their ranks if they were going to be able to
take on the warrior castes of seven other Clans for any length of time.


And by 3073-3074, before the complete destruction of the Society, the Coyotes revolted against their puppet and Scientist khans, and were summarily Reaved of 55% of their frontline troops- not to mention that most of the gear available to them was old Star League-era tech. The latter parts of the Wars gave such a real vibe of a post-apocalyptia it was incredible.
Prince_of_Darkness
04/25/12 07:20 PM
75.170.103.205

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With the recent release of the Supplemental, what do you guys think?

Personally, the fact that it details so many pirate groups around clan space and contains a warship-killing battlemech is enough to make me giggle with joy.
scheinlen
05/04/12 10:11 PM
204.111.92.88

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I still have the old sub for the 15 ton Roadrunner mech the Clans built that was posted years ago...
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
Karagin
05/05/12 04:15 AM
178.76.140.186

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Good mech...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Prince_of_Darkness
05/06/12 11:50 AM
75.170.101.110

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Quote:

I still have the old sub for the 15 ton Roadrunner mech the Clans built that was posted years ago...




Heh, good memories.

I remember seeing that one when I was like, 8 or 9 looking up 'mechs in my school library; only in the context of Mechwarrior 2 did I realize how strong it was.

2 ER ML's and a top speed of... what, 15/23? Too bad it was actually overweight by about a 0.5 ton. I saw a few fights using it- with only 1.5 tons of Ferro fiberous, it's CT could be cored by an IS large laser, and it regularly was.

BUT THAT IS NOT WARS OF REAVING RELATED ARGGGARGGBLARGA
Karagin
05/06/12 03:03 PM
217.5.180.117

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Dude really how is it over weight? At the time it was built it worked for the rules that were in official use. Things changed you can not build the same mechs as shown original in the 3025 TRO since the rounding factors have changed as far as speed and armor go. YET you can still use the mech so it is not illegal and in fact I don't think even comes in at .5 tons over. I will go check the stats from the sheet and see...double checking it via the official mech editor and then post the design.

And in away it does have something to do with this topic since they have found away to remove the ultra light mechs aka those under 20 tons out of the realm of mechs and into the bastard level of protomechs.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Prince_of_Darkness
05/09/12 11:21 AM
75.170.101.110

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Quote:


And in away it does have something to do with this topic since they have found away to remove the ultra light mechs aka those under 20 tons out of the realm of mechs and into the bastard level of protomechs.




No it doesn't Karagin. The Roadrunner is "Apocryphal"- though published by FASA it has material which could be considered copyright infringement, doesn't show up in any official TRO's or readouts, and is actually overweight. It also didn't appear in the Wars of Reaving.

Besides, have you even seen techmanual? Ultralights are right there, with Industrial Ultralights being tournament-legal. Hell, TRO: 3075 has the Patron loadermech, and TRO: prototypes has an "upgrade" for it.

And what difference does it make? 'mechs under 20 tons are terrible, a handful were made that never saw tournament use, and can hardly be used for anything outside of scouting.

Quote:

Dude really how is it over weight? At the time it was built it worked for the rules that were in official use.




With fractional accounting-

Endo Steel chassis: 0.75 tons
225 XL engine: 5 tons
Gyro: 3 tons
Cockpit: 3 tons
1.5 tons Ferro Fibrous armor: 1.5 tons
2 ER Medium lasers: 2 tons

15.25 tons total, but would round up to 15.5 in standard play. It's not legal even with the rules back then, as I have shown- besides, they haven't changed despite what you want to believe.

Really Karagin, you need to stop trying to prove to everyone that they should hate the recent stuff as much as you do. Not only is it embarrassing, but it holds back the game from evolving- ****, for the last 25 years IRL and over 300 in-game, they've just been trying to rebuild that one all-encompassing governing body with their state at it's head, and it's grognards like yourself who are keeping it that way. Let it die already.
Karagin
05/09/12 11:40 AM
217.5.180.117

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I am not talking about the BS dark age crap. I a talk about the 10 and 15 ton mechs that rules use to support. Which are now falling into the Protomechs level.

As for what you or any one else likes or doesn't that is up to you and if you don't like that I don't like something then don't read the posting.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Prince_of_Darkness
05/09/12 12:08 PM
75.170.101.110

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Quote:

I am not talking about the BS dark age crap. I a talk about the 10 and 15 ton mechs that rules use to support. Which are now falling into the Protomechs level.




It's not Dark Age Karagin. If you read the link, it's an Age of War/Star League design.

And you aren't talking about the 10-15 tonner's "falling into the Protomechs level"- you were trying to talk about how much you hate them.

Quote:

As for what you or any one else likes or doesn't that is up to you and if you don't like that I don't like something then don't read the posting.




It's hard to ignore your hypocrisy when you're purposely derailing threads.
Karagin
05/09/12 12:13 PM
217.5.180.117

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It is my thread, I do believe I started the thread discussing my take on the book. So how am I derailing it?

You have a nice habit of jumping in and stirring things up. I don't like the Dark Age or Jihad related stuff, that is known. The topic here is that the ultra lights should stick around, the rules at one supported them, but then we have these protomechs that at one time were dropped then brought back, so if you would stop trying to derail things yourself and look at what is typed the idea that we can have both is there for all to see.

Now how about we both step back and stop butting heads over things how about it?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
scheinlen
05/12/12 10:39 AM
204.111.103.39

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Well needs for a like mech are there at time:

Scenario; Chemical Plant for Munitions construction.

Defending forces; Near by Mech Regiment Pulled away by heavy devertion.

Multi targets at given sites.

Very lite defence of regular Infantry Battalion with supporting Light Vehicles.

Targets are of high importance

No ASF available

small time on target only before reenforcments can react to your attack

limited transport of 4 Landing craft to get close to area of target, but area is under heavy AAA protection.

targets need to be "Hit", require attacking troops to leave the AO asp to not become engaged by the resulting reaction of the chemicals "mixing".So, Presured cockpits are a must.

You have Vetern Pilots (Light Mech) and a company of Ultra Light mechs that can be held back from the upcoming battle.
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
Karagin
05/12/12 11:28 AM
217.5.180.117

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Sounds like a good scenario. If I can get the chance I will run it with some buddies.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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