Greyslayer
08/09/02 01:22 PM
216.14.192.226
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I was thinking of possibilities for alternate battletech universes (as I do when I am bored out of my skull). One hypothetical that springs to mind is a single planet universe as follows:
- solar flares from the system's sun crippled or forces jumpships to not be able to unfurl jump sails (thus they cannot recharge for a new jump)
- habital planet in system has a dense reactive atmosphere (even better suited to repel solar flares damage such as intense solar winds). The problem those that escaping their failing jumpships find is that they cannot return out of the atmosphere due to in effect the protective layer around the planet.
Do these sound alright?
Greyslayer
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Cray
08/09/02 01:36 PM
64.83.29.242
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Neither of them seem to work scientifically [1], but it makes for a fine campaign setting to constrain players to one planet. I think Heavy Gear got a lot of mileage out of that.
[1] Solar flares might cause a little electrical arcing in a ship's systems, and the dense/reactive atmosphere layer doesn't work unless it's artificial.
If you want to bust a jump drive and strand people, say some complex KF drive gizmo burns out (the controller is always a choice one, followed by breaking the Ti-Ge core itself), something the ship can't repair/replace. Depending on the size of the group (it'll need to be over 100 unrelated adults to have a decent breeding population), they'll probably be unable to sustain a technological civilization on the planet.
The usual solution is for the jumpship to shout for help via radio and wait years for the signal to reach the nearest inhabited star system. You'd have to do something about that, too - make the ship "lost", fry its systems very extensively (that probably won't work - shuttle, mech, and dropship radios should be able to send signals over interstellar distances), or something. Put in an out-of-the-way system no one visits - Periphery, or a system that was "known" to be uninhabitable due to survey error, etc.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
08/09/02 01:46 PM
216.14.192.226
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Could it be possible that this sun can produce a EMP flare strong enough to knock out navigation systems?
The idea was to be during the great expansion just before the great houses started to appear on the scene (pre-2350). A small fleet of jump-transports with one military styled escort (colonists in themselves may not be able to bring the technology for a enclosed conflict at any level ... need the military ship to provide the raw data needed).
Btw I think it would be possible for a 'dense' atmosphere to envolope a planet. A inverse example would be Mars, it once had a atmosphere similar to earth but since it wasn't quite as dense as earth's it apparently seeped away over time to leave it as it is now .... a thin atmosphere. Earth's might have been thicker in the past (though scientists believe there is little or no seepage compared to what happened to mars).
Greyslayer
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Cray
08/09/02 02:06 PM
64.83.29.242
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>Could it be possible that this sun can produce a EMP flare strong enough to knock out navigation systems?
Not really. The charged particles and x-rays involved don't take much to shield against, and the computers of the 2200s-2300s [1] would probably survive better than the passengers.
[1] Excellent choice for a time period. You'd want the fleet launched c2200, no later than 2235 when the Terran Allliance abandoned colonies beyond 1 jump from Terra. The Exodus pretty much shut down at that point, but colonies flourished and human space was expanding rapidly before the 2230s. Bonus: the Terran Alliance (before the 2230s) insisted on military escorts for colony fleets.
You could, indeed, have a quite dense atmosphere around the planet (but not a specific, dense layer). However, there are problems:
1) Humans will find the air nearly impossible to breath long before it becomes a hinderance to spaceflight. I mean, even Venus's 90 atmosphere surface pressure is just an annoyance to launch vehicles (particularly those that use balloons to gain some altitude first), but 90atm of oxy/nitro would induce (at least) chronic nitrogen narcosis, assuming the oxygen percentage wasn't lethally high.
2) Over the long run, you'd see serious shrinkage of average ribcage size (an inverse of Himalayan and Andean natives, who have twice the lung capacity of the average human). This is mostly an aesthetic issue.
3) High atmospheric densities would greatly encourage the colonists to develop flight. Lighter-than-air and winged flight would be child's play. There would be an excellent basis for returning to space.
However...multiple ships complicates matters because there's no easy way to screw them all up at once.
Ah: a meteor shower. Seriously.
The ships appear at the jump point and, golly, the jump point happens to be in the orbit of some long-evaporated comet. The gravel-like remains rip through the fleet like a 10km/s shotgun blast. You can bust whatever systems you want.
I have a question: how soon do you want the killing and screaming to begin? Are the original colonists involved in the war, or is the setting started X centuries down the road?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
08/09/02 02:22 PM
216.14.192.226
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To answer the last question first ..... several centuries in the future. Considering this is battletech and the period you suggest for best effect (2200-2235) is 200 years from the first battlemech in a large higly populated and greatly resourced universe.
I'm trying to think of the protective envolope around the earth with isn't the atmosphere Van or Von something or other (Van Allen Belt maybe? or is that a asteriod expanse? *shrugs* 4am mind-frazzle at the moment). Now when a solar flare (or just plain solar wind) hits this layer it creates alot of interference. A active sun (more so than our sun) flaring could make the 'belt or envolope' very dangerous to pass through compared to ours. I believe they have cancelled shuttle launches in the past due to solar activity.
In your atmosphere example even Venus loses more atmosphere than earth does so its not the example I am looking for.
One method for entire fleet neutralisation would be a say 'mini-nebula' or gas cloud. Another would be a body generating a gravity at a point where the ships entered (this though may not cause all ships to fail). A third and quite easy to write up (I don't really like it though) would be a premature pirate sabotage (in this example pirates believed that after so many jumps they would be at such-an-such system but instead they were at this system.
Thanks for your comments so far. You sound slightly more awake than I am 
Greyslayer
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Karagin
08/09/02 02:23 PM
65.129.223.116
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Interesting...how large of a group are you thinking about?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/09/02 02:29 PM
64.83.29.242
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4am frazzles...well, I have the 2pm-had-big-going-away-lunch-for-coworker-sleepies, so I follow. 
Van Allen radiation belts are belts of charged particles trapped by Earth's magnetic field, originating from the sun and high-altitude nuclear tests. The 1950s-1960s high altitude nuke tests really thickened them up.
>In your atmosphere example even Venus loses more atmosphere than earth does so its not the example I am looking for.
...I don't follow. How does Venus lose atmosphere at a significant rate?
Perhaps I should make an end run at this:
1) What war technology do you want the colonists to have?
2) What year do you want it set in?
3) What year do you want to first strand the colonists?
4) How many colonists do you want by the answer to 2)?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
08/09/02 02:30 PM
216.14.192.226
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A fleet of 6 ships (a fleet much larger sounds a bit too large and smaller would greatly reduce the genetic pool and considering I would say a good % would die before planetfall initial numbers need to be high). 5 ships would be transport ships with one armed escort.
I think this is the answer to the question you ask?
Greyslayer
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Greyslayer
08/09/02 02:46 PM
216.14.192.226
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'Van Allen radiation belts are belts of charged particles trapped by Earth's magnetic field, originating from the sun and high-altitude nuclear tests. The 1950s-1960s high altitude nuke tests really thickened them up.'
Well there ya go. I did not know that. At least I got the name right
'...I don't follow. How does Venus lose atmosphere at a significant rate?'
These was a series on tv here a few months back that dealt with this. It did discuss in detail how planets lose their atmosphere to space. Mars at one stage had an atmosphere similar to earth's while venus is continually losing its atmosphere to space (which makes the mind boggle of its original pressure). There was some protective layer or field that stopped the earth suffering the same fate either altogether or as quickly.
'1) What war technology do you want the colonists to have?'
Standard colonist technology I suppose. Probably with the ability to be like the colonies that survived the Alliance embargos that destroyed many of the weaker colonies. The main advantage they would have is that alot of colonies were not setup with resources from transports of military escorts.
'2) What year do you want it set in?'
oh around 3025 just for the sake of a good year 
'3) What year do you want to first strand the colonists?'
Well given the information you have given me I would say about 2227 or so. Make the most of technology advances while not being right on the cusp of the Alliance going ballistic on colonists.
'4) How many colonists do you want by the answer to 2)?'
I would say several million by then. Over eight hundred years diverse ethnic groups may even have created themselves by then (such as Australians and Kiwis only took a couple of hundred years to develope a unique accent in their parts of the earth).
Greyslayer
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Karagin
08/09/02 03:05 PM
65.129.223.116
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Yes it does.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/09/02 03:05 PM
64.83.29.242
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>It did discuss in detail how planets lose their atmosphere to space. Mars at one stage had an atmosphere similar to earth's while venus is continually losing its atmosphere to space (which makes the mind boggle of its original pressure). There was some protective layer or field that stopped the earth suffering the same fate either altogether or as quickly.
I'm familiar with this loss, but the loss occurs over the course of billions of years. The moon, for example, could sustain an Earth-density atmosphere (of oxygen/nitrogen - molecular mass matters) for several million years despite its low gravity. If your target planet had a thick atmosphere when the colonists landed, it will have it long after humans are gone.
Earth's protection comes from (partly) its magnetic field. Vulcanism, life (life is a great lifesupport system), and location, location, location also have helped Earth keep its atmosphere.
>Standard colonist technology I suppose
Basically...no mechs, but other L1 battlefield technology? Or do you want mechs in the mix?
>I would say several million by then
Several million can't sustain much of a BT-level industrial society (several hundred million or several billion are more ideal - gives you more room for big, feuding nations, too). Unless the planet is fairly hostile, you could easily put a billion or more people on the planet after 8 centuries.
Just at 1.5% growth rate (population doubles every 47 years, a low growth rate for a colony), 1000 people can become 150 million after 800 years. At 1.6%, you have nearly 330 million people after 800 years.
Still, pick a number that makes you happy. It's easy to alter population growth - plague, hostile environment, etc.
BTW, what kind of planet do you want it to be? Pleasant, Earth-like, hostile?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
08/09/02 03:31 PM
216.14.192.226
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'Earth's protection comes from (partly) its magnetic field. Vulcanism, life (life is a great lifesupport system), and location, location, location also have helped Earth keep its atmosphere.'
I just remembered what it was now. The solar winds would strip the atmosphere. A scan of the planet and looking at just behind the planet in respect to where it faced the sun revealed a small amount of atmosphere being stripped off both venus and mars. I'm not sure how long the moon would last under that though.
'Still, pick a number that makes you happy. It's easy to alter population growth - plague, hostile environment, etc.'
I know that is the tricky part. I am figuring probably closer to 0.8 rather than 1.6%. Still at 1.6 and 330 million that would work. Most of this world's population is in non-technology developement at this point and still discoveries are continually being made. Most wepaons like Lasers and LRMs and so on I figure already exist (maybe in more basic forms but the age of war had all the basic lvl1 weapons I think). So to develope a mech would be more on the motive system, actuators and musclulature.
The planet itself I was thinking of using would have a larger body of water (essentially pre-icecap earth). Mostly jungle though the early settlers developed a rather aggressive grass that is smothering the jungle back (over hundreds of years large tracts of land has been cleared of jungle this way without losing the rich soils to erosion which would happen by just clearing it). The planet is still hostile, it has a very active weather system (being jungle rain/storms for days are not unusual). All the domesticated animals are native to the planet and I am still tossing up with the idea of having one small continent with large reptiles or something. Its all fun and games until your medic gets eaten
A couple ideas for conflict would stem from originally the military vessel's crew,some of their supporters and the rest. After that simple time and greed I suppose the actual breakdown would be hard to map out at this point....
Greyslayer
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Cray
08/09/02 03:44 PM
64.83.29.242
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>I just remembered what it was now. The solar winds would strip the atmosphere. A scan of the planet and looking at just behind the planet in respect to where it faced the sun revealed a small amount of atmosphere being stripped off both venus and mars. I'm not sure how long the moon would last under that though.
The moon would retain its atmosphere for millions of years. Venus and Earth would keep their atmospheres for billions, more with an Earth-scale magnetic field. The solar wind stripping is minute, slow, gradual effect.
The damage was rapid on Mars because of the combination of UV light (which broke hydrogen off oxygen, and hydrogen atoms move quite quickly for a given temperature compared to other gases), low gravity (low enough that hydrogen, who's molecular velocity approaches Mars' escape velocity, can escape), and lack of a magnetic field (compounding UV light's damage). Most of Mars' oxygen did not leave - it now makes the planet red after it combined with iron in the soil. (Earth had several bouts of mass rusting like this, too, when its life first started spewing oxygen. All the once-free iron rusted.) But Mars still probably had a good billion years with its atmosphere.
Compared to Mars, Venus and Earth have a lot of protection due to their gravity and escape velocity.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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JadeDragon
08/09/02 05:29 PM
206.228.153.2
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Here we go with Far Country again.
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Cray
08/09/02 08:59 PM
12.78.129.119
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?? I don't see how Far Country has anything to do with a "Lost Colony" topic. No one has mentioned aliens.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
08/10/02 03:18 PM
12.91.139.175
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>as for radios it took how long for kerensky's transmission to travel just part of the way in the exodus road series?
The Clan Homeworlds are 500 light-years from the edge of the Inner Sphere. A colony settled in 2227 would likely be within a few light-years, or tens of light-years, of another habitable planet with interstellar capacity. It would take some thought to isolate such a colony - muck up the big jumpship transmitters, no true dropships in 2227 so they're not an issue, and have the shuttles crash before they can get off a radio signal. Plausible enough.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
08/10/02 08:25 PM
63.12.141.66
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There were a few things wrong with Far Country ....
Aliens and a Phoenix Hawk LAM were some.
The idea behind this is that in the time prior to the arrival of the colonists a major solar event happened (and travelling as light does means the event never reached the nearest inhabited planet before they jumped). The subsequent loss of the fleet and the data of this solar event prevents anyone from willingly ever jumping to this system ever again. The colonists end up landing rather haphazardly on the surface of a pre-iceage type earth that still suffers high weather activity and tectonic activity (ruling out the chance of aliens being on the planet since it isn't such a highly evolved planet). The planet also has a higher magnetic field protecting it from both the sun and the event that causes the problem in the first place (it has to be enough to 'plausibly' take out a fleet rather than just saying it does), this also interferes with any transmission being sent off-world.
What I am trying to do is get the idea of what kind of solar event could cause this to happen and be believable and continue to exist for hundreds or thousands of years before anyone would bother to check the system again.
Other ideas I toyed with included:-
- gas giant collapse into a mini-star. This though could be too powerful.
- external planetary bodies colliding. Though this would mean that pirates would eventually succeed in jumping in the system and the colonists would not be seriously cut off from the rest of the universe for too long.
- A gas 'nebula' or 'veil' surrounds the system causing serious disruption to anyone jumping into this area. The previous data may point to the system existing outside of the nebula but were in fact wrong. I'm not sure of the effects of a nebula on jump-travel though.
- The unknown existance of a secondary sun close to the primary. Unknown are the effects of this to me though.
They are just a few of the ideas kicking around in this thick skull of mine 
Greyslayer
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novakitty
08/10/02 08:48 PM
209.242.100.230
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A sufficiently large object colliding with a star could destabilize the surface around the impact area and release solar flares on a scale that could wipe out anything not protected by a very powerful magnetic field. The magnetic poles of the planet would probably be seriously irradiated.
I do not remember well, but I think the process that causes solar flares is not entirely understood, so the non-orbital planetary mass hitting the star might not be neccessary.
Either way, the whole event can be described as really, really, bad timing.
meow
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Greyslayer
08/10/02 09:39 PM
63.12.141.66
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Its not just the timing itself but the length of time that is important. The event must be bad enough to affect the entire fleet upon entry and force everyone to never want to go there until the event has definitely stopped. As Cray has said the expansion will not be sufficiently deep enough to remain undicovered until some time in the future.
Thanks for the input none-the-less.
Greyslayer
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novakitty
08/10/02 09:46 PM
209.242.100.230
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I did not remember the star's location or the time frame, my comment was from a physics perspective.
There is always the possibility of a mis-jump. An unobserved gravitic event that throws the jump trajectory wildly off-course. Since a stardard jump feels like effectively no time has passed from inside, what would happen if the jump took, say, 5 seconds of internal observed time (due to the jump being altered by the outside interference). That should get plenty far enough away. In this scenario, the likelyhood of passengers surviving the jump itself decreases, and the jumpship would most likely be at or near dead from the unexpected scale of force it was subject to, reducing the need for a local event at the target system.
meow
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Cray
08/10/02 10:23 PM
12.91.126.37
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>What I am trying to do is get the idea of what kind of solar event could cause this to happen
There isn't really any that would hit the right balance of "damage the ships, but not the colonists."
I strongly recommend debris - a nebula could have the debris that damage the jumpships, and would shroud signals from weaker shuttle radios.
Centuries of isolation, again via the nebula, would be quite plausible.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
08/10/02 11:45 PM
65.129.166.13
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Maybe...maybe not...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
08/11/02 06:57 AM
63.12.145.170
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In the time I speak of most colony ships travelled as a fleet. Its easy enough to have a single ship misjump but multiple misjump to the same system, suffer a critical failure that could not be repaired from other ships (they would all have to fail in such a way that none of them could be repaired or even if they did there was no-where to go).
I've done the ideas up for misjumps in the past I was thinking "single planet" mini-verse. Probably limited travel by air and especially space vehicles.
Greyslayer
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novakitty
08/11/02 09:23 AM
209.242.100.230
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All these details that are needed for accuracy are making it quite difficult to help.
How many people did you want to make it to the planet? How many people would be on one vessile?
If the two numbers are similar, what if one (or maybe two, but that would be pushing probability) of the fleet arrives at the distant star, the K-F drive has changed from a wonderful piece of technology to a large paperweight. All the electronics of the ship are completely wasted, etc. With navigation down, no one recognizes any star in the sky, so the HPG would be useless even if it was functioning. Then kill off anyone else you want dead by bad landings.
This idea seems to give you the distance and loneliness of the desired scenario, but I do not know if the population would be sufficient.
meow
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Nightmare
08/11/02 10:38 AM
194.251.240.106
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Why do you need a technical failure immediately? Just make the original colonists rebels instead. Hijacking a colony fleet ready to head out, the group sets out to found Utopia among the stars. They wouldn`t transmit their location to anyone since the Hegemony would want those ships back. You can always destroy the ships later if necessary.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Cray
08/11/02 11:14 AM
12.78.119.66
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Ooo...sabotage and rebellion, good idea.
The Alliance military escort ship might not be appreciated, or might be partly/entirely part of the rebellion. 2227 was less than a decade from the rebellion that crippled the Alliance.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
08/11/02 08:36 PM
63.12.145.2
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a few thousand people. As cray has already said it would be a good idea to have a good diversity of genetic background in this (unlike the clans who should be suffering genetic failure by now).
About 70-80% of all personnel make it to the planet I would say (thus keeping the fleet smaller (more people get killed the bigger the fleet had to be, now if only they had decent info on the transport ships and how many people they carried).
There is a two-fold reason why I don't want space travel:
- being found by a already existing battletech faction
- making the mini-verse larger than a single planet.
Ok the reason for the second is that if it works I would want each player to play a faction on the planet. Incorporating the storyline of limited or no space travel and at the time of game start no battlemechs, from this you have to research all the aspects of a battlemech before you could build one (and considering how harsh the terrain is vehicles are at a serious disadvantage). This will be a almost completely land-based compaign idea, from there its a simple matter of mapping out what happens for a storyline. Even though the players may have the technology to build mechs in the end they must also locate the rare radioactives needed to build the engines and so on. A player may not have the technology to build a mech but have large deposits of the radioactive thus giving them access to fusion-powered vehicles. I would probably need to balance this out with several mini-campaigns before I started the main one though.
Anyway these are the reasons for what I am doing this,
Greyslayer
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Cray
08/12/02 07:28 AM
64.83.29.242
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>unlike the clans who should be suffering genetic failure by now
The Clans started with 4 million people, knocked themselves down to 3 million in the Exodus Civil War, and even the trueborn warriors started with 800 people, refreshed by the odd freeborn that worked their way into the breeding program. They also use genetic engineering to a limited extent to splice in good, healthy genes, and squeeze out bad ones. While sibkin do seem to adhere to the motto, "Incest is best, put your sibling to the test," inbreeding is (regrettably) not a problem the Clans are likely to suffer.
>A player may not have the technology to build a mech but have large deposits of the radioactive thus giving them access to fusion-powered vehicles.
Fusion power doesn't require radioactive fuels. The easiest form of fusion could stand some tritium (radioactive hydrogen), but after that radioactives aren't needed. Just heavy hydrogen (deuterium) will do fine.
>There is a two-fold reason why I don't want space travel:
Space travel would be easy enough to squelch, or limit to the near-orbit stuff. It would take a huge investment in the required technologies, and KF drives could easily be waved off for centuries more. If your setting is locked in warfare, the height of space travel might be spy and communication satellites.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
08/12/02 06:35 PM
63.12.147.51
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'Fusion power doesn't require radioactive fuels. The easiest form of fusion could stand some tritium (radioactive hydrogen), but after that radioactives aren't needed. Just heavy hydrogen (deuterium) will do fine.'
According to battletech fluff (Periphery Sroucebook in particular) they needed rare radioactives to make the engines. The main example is of the Outworlds Alliance causing the Kuritans to sue for peace when they were led to believe the OA had found major deposits of the rare radioactives needed to increase their mech production. I am more or less trying to stick within certain conceptions of the game fluff.
Greyslayer
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Cray
08/12/02 06:47 PM
12.78.119.27
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>I am more or less trying to stick within certain conceptions of the game fluff.
Then you would never, ever mention radioactive materials again. Fusion, with one (1) exception does not use radioactive materials for fuel, and BT fluff largely reflects this.
That piece of fluff in no way indicates ANY fusion reaction requires radioactive materials, just that a lot of mechs could be powered by radioactives. It entirely leaves open the option of fission power plants, which do require radioactive materials.
As for game fluff, you can find enough of it to contradict that one example, and a TON of on-line, real life fusion research to make it look laughable. There is one (1) sort of fusion reaction under investigation that needs radioactive materials, and that is deuterium-tritium fusion. Every other fusion fuel combination does not involve radioactive materials.
Fusion fuel combinations to look for:
Hydrogen-hydrogen (non-radioactive fuels)
Deuterium-hydrogen (non-radioactive fuels)
Deuterium-deuterium (non-radioactive fuels)
Deuterium-tritium (tritum is weakly, weakly, weakly radioactive - it's used in glow-in-the-dark watch faces)
Deuterium-helium-3 (non-radioactive fuels)
Deuterium-lithium (non-radioactive fuels)
Deuterium-boron (non-radioactive fuels)
There is nothing mysterious about fusion today (except how to get it to work controllably). The physics behind it are well tested in "atom smashers," cyclotrons, and are often available on-line. Radioactives do not figure in, except tritium (a form of heavy hydrogen).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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