Requiem
07/10/20 06:22 AM
1.158.192.25
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The SL was famous for having …. bases on known worlds.
How do you keep secret many of these ‘hidden’ bases as well as their caches if the majority of bases within any Great House / Periphery Realm is relatively known by the citizens of any given world.
It is not as if the Amaris – Kerensky War was over multi generations and everyone forgot about its location – and then shortly thereafter the Exodus occurred.
So, wouldn’t you expect the Rulers, and by extension, the people of these worlds to excavate any known bases, just as the tomb raiders of old as a get rich quick scheme, or as means of obtaining advanced weaponry, or even gaining a vast underground complex for the ruler of the world?
For any secret base to exist it must have been located in a deserted area upon a world where no one could see the re-entry as well as the exit of any Drop-ships (thus we are looking at a vast areas of empty land) and in addition this area of land is where there are no flyovers of aircraft or satellites used to survey the world beneath it.
Thus there must be questions as to the “security” of any hidden base on any world.
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There is an issue with letting the houses deal with pirate strikes.
I still believe that pirates are an internal issue and by extension the SLDF will not have anything to do with them.
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The idea of using public refueling facilities comes from the fact that if you have a dozen warships in the area, and they do not refuel or even worse, get damaged and repaired in a short time in that area, the locals will know there is something nearby.
Question: How many fleets today contain supply / support class vessel? + How many fleets have pre-arranged positions and dates to rendezvous with re-supply vessels?
Military vessels utilizing civilian merchantmen to re-supply is a recipe for disaster - no true military navy would stand for it.
In order to keep bases secret then everything about them must be secret – from their location onwards …. there can be no civilians on the world in question – if there are then security will be compromised at one time or another, it is inevitable.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/10/20 01:58 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is the key words to the bases. Known bases. There are a few things that would have stopped such actions to begin with. The automated defenses comes to mind. Then the succession wars may well have made more then a few more off limits from radiation and just pure destruction. Bases can be kept quiet, but that involved not having a huge flow of traffic to and from them.
Another method of keeping them secret is to have them attached to a known base, but have only one way to get to it, say a single tunnel a few miles(kilometers) long. Only a few would know about it, so the risks of others finding out about it are low.
Large security zones in some areas would allow you to start building without too many watching, though satillites tends to counter this. This also brings up the issue of the jump flares giving away the fact a jumpship has entered the system. You can't make a secret base in a system that can detect this. The locals will sooner or later try to find out who and why they are here. A simple stationing a ship in the general area of the flares would give you the chance to follow them in. Grounding one on an asteroid or such would make it that much harder to find. Which is why I believe the Jump Flare was not used in the earlier versions of the game. There is no real way you can 'surprise' a world with an invading force. Yes a single day flight pirate point can do so, but those are rare and very dangerous.
The resupply/refuel does not have to be civilian in nature. Just having a base that does so in local space would be enough. Not having any what so ever is where the questions come from. If you don't have tankers in your fleet, or never see one around it, causes the alarms to go off. Now a sneaky thing to do, is have a 'tanker' that is actually a weapons platform. So the people think it is a tanker supplying the fleet, while anyone that thinks it is an easy target, will find out just how wrong they were as they die.
I am not saying the civilians would be working in a secret base, but you would need something in the public's eye to avoid them asking how you can continue to operate without normal support. A single ship from a fleet could be used to resupply a secret base, but having the whole fleet do so would eventually show it is there.
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Requiem
07/10/20 05:55 PM
1.158.192.25
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A base within a base is an interesting idea.
Construction will require a cover a story, then there is the issue of the quantity of soil taken out of the ground – if you are constructing a subterranean facility – if a spy is making note as to the quantity taken out of the facility simple volume calculations could indicate the existence of a larger area of excavation,
This principle could also be expanded to the ‘Mech Level – building in the middle / surrounded by a revetment wall and at a height which provides the ‘Mech with cover, especially if they are a Marauder and can crouch down, hidden by the wall, then pop up and fire.
The problem with one way in is that there is only one way out! Best to have adjunct exits that can be used similar to that of a Vietcong tunnel system. No one realizing there’s an exist hatch nearby until it is too late.
In removing the issue of detecting Jump-flares requires a hidden system once more – vacant from all civilian habitation.
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Not having any what so ever is where the questions come from.
If they have the appearance of being permanently attached to the fleet or have been dispatched form a local garrison fleet there will be no questions.
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Now a sneaky thing to do, is have a 'tanker' that is actually a weapons platform.
This is just a navy raider class vessel (in the game it is often referred to as a pirate class vessel) – a good film on the topic is – Under ten flags (1960) – Loosely based on actual events during WW2 – and an actual German Captain Bernhard Rogge (interesting fact he was in the German Navy during WW2 and after WW2 was working with the West German Navy and NATO due to his conduct as an officer whilst commanding a the navy raider.)
All bases need re-supply and the only means this is conducted is either from local sources or from a supply depo. / Jump-Ship / Dropship(s).
The problem is that it is hard to hide a dropship’s entry and exit from anyone in surrounding thousands of square Kilometers if it is on flat terrain.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/11/20 12:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not necessarily is there only one way out. The SL seemed to have mastered hiding bases, as they exist all around the IS and periphery. The base on Clinton, that Snord was sitting on is a good example of that.
The intel departments seem to have missed a lot of things the SL did, just like no one knew of Comstars mechs until the marriage of Hanse and Melissa. Even then, it wasn't spread around. So a lot of this would depend on the level of counter intelligence of the SL.
I want to say a story or two did exactly what was suggested. They had a known facility that had some sort of earthquake that opened up the way into another section.
Simple projects that get cancelled as they are not needed, but in reality are the secret bases, can be a way to go with making them and covering them. Might be labeled as dangerous waste or something like that. Even a simple training outpost could be used as a cover.
As stated before, jump flares did not exist in the game for a while. It was put in when they realized they could not detect incoming ships without something.
Think about that response. Having the refuel ship dispatched from the local garrison. That would probably mean they got it from a local source. I know more then a few bases in the world today use local, public resources for things. There are some that don't. So it can be argued either way.
As much as using a dropship sounds the most effective, I want to say secret facilities on inhabited worlds would use shuttles, as they are so much easier to hide. And there is a bigger problem with detection of dropships then the flare. They do show up on radar, though ECM is supposed to counter that. Yes, Visual is something you can't really do much about.
I guess this would mean atmospheric thrusters would have to be used, as anything with fusion exhaust couldn't be covered. It would still show up on a thermal scope, but not nearly as easy as a fusion drive.
And I wasn't talking of having the tanker as a separate unit, but just a decoy so the locals didn't know they were not a real fueler ship. Then again, it could well be a cargo ship. Maybe holding the spec ops or spies that are catching a ride. It would be a nice cover to move them around. Any base, or even a single ship, needs supplies. So using them to send in teams would work pretty well. Even if they weren't fake.
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Requiem
07/11/20 07:49 PM
1.158.192.25
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Has this now become a comedy of errors?
The SLDF mastered the intelligence of hidden bases from the Great Houses;
However,
The Periphery states mastered the intelligence of hidden bases to an extent that even the SLDF was unable to penetrate.
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…… jump flares did not exist in the game for a while. It was put in when they realized they could not detect incoming ships without something.
So it is OK to fix these issues and yet when it comes to some of the larger issues it is impossible to fix them?
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That would probably mean they got it from a local source.
Question: for diesel ships where does the refueling tanker take on its cargo? As, where can security be maintained?
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As much as using a dropship sounds the most effective, I want to say secret facilities on inhabited worlds would use shuttles
How big is the secret facility and how much can a shuttle’s cargo area take? Multiple shuttle runs or one drop-ship + what is the difference in size between a shuttle runway and that of a drop-ship pad and how much effort goes into camouflaging either when it comes to the idea of having a hidden base?
What gets noticed and what is just accepted as normal?
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Tankers as a cover for intelligence
Yes, tankers can be used as surveillance craft ….
They can also be used for many other purposes …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/12/20 03:27 AM
66.74.60.165
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The military does NOT make the diesel for ships. They buy it from someone that does. So the fusion fuel would probably be made and bought from a local source.
Drop Shuttle is a VTOL that hooks up to a jumpship without needing another ship. 200 ton ship. But even then, most shuttles seem to be able to VTOL on worlds, though drive flares and infravision is hard to cover. Could well be several shuttles fly over an area every day, but people don't see them land anywhere, but know there is a base in the area. That does NOT mean the one being kept a secret.
Wasn't talking as a surveillance craft, but as a shuttle to move agents onto and off of worlds. A false tank to hide a group in would suffice. Hell, they don't really have to take on fuel, if they are pumping it at a military or intel base. Just act like it.
The nobles have been able to hide things from their own house as well. And this also include the SL. To extend their units beyond League limit, they had to make them somewhere that the SL could not keep an accounting of. Even with the Davion trickery, they still need to come from somewhere other then the public factories.
And it isn't like I disagree with the developers really need to get the issue fixed in the game. A rewrite can, or should, only be done when the rules are in stone and they follow them. Then you can remove a lot of the logic issues like we have discussed over multiple threads.
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Requiem
07/14/20 08:55 AM
1.158.192.25
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How many people realized the problem with regards to the Territorial States (Periphery) Rebellion that started with the New Vandenberg Uprising?
Reference: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Amaris_Civil_War
Quote: “Stefan's first act, after rename the Star League Amaris Empire, was to order Aleksandr Kerensky to maintain operations (against the Taurian Concordat), which Kerensky refused.”
Reference: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Stefan_Amaris
Quote: “ … May of 2767 when Amaris re-established communications and tried to gain the general's support …. However, General Kerensky …. he declared a cease-fire with all other Periphery realms and declared Stefan Amaris an usurper, starting the 13-year Amaris Civil War.”
Problem with the above information …..
Reference: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magistracy_Armed_Forces
Quote: “however when they joined in with Stefan Amaris' conspiracy their forces were greatly expanded: by 2765 they were well equipped with 20 Divisions (consisting of 22 conventional and 108 'Mech regiments) and a naval fleet of 22 vessels. While MAF units on paper, most of these are essentially part of Amaris' "Secret Army" ….”
In addition to those within the Taurian Concordat and the Outworlds Alliance they too were part of Amaris’ “Secret Army”
Question: How can you declare a cease fire with ‘Periphery Forces’ when the majority of their forces are NOT periphery forces they are in fact part of Amaris’ “Secret Army”?
And these are in no way small forces -
Taurian Territorial State
…………………………………….Taurian Forces……. Amaris”Shadow” Forces……….……..Total Forces
BattleMech Regiments ………………15…………………………100……………………………………115
Conventional Regiments…………..…34…….……………………44 (approx.).……………………..78
Warships ……………………………………15………………………..…16……………….………...…...…….31
Magistracy of Canopus Territorial State
…………………………………….Canopus Forces……. Amaris”Shadow” Forces……….……..Total Forces
BattleMech Regiments …………….….5…………………………103………………………………….……108
Conventional Regiments…………..….8…….……………………14 (approx.).………………….……..22
Warships ……………………………..….....7………………………..…Unknown – assume 15…..…….22
Outworlds Alliance Territorial State
…………………………………….Alliance Forces………. Amaris”Shadow” Forces……….……..Total Forces
BattleMech Regiments ……………….11……………………….…89………………………………….…100
Conventional Regiments…………..….55…….……………………17 .………………….………………..72
Warships ………………………………….....1…..…………………….…15……....…………………………….16
There is something wrong here as….
So, as Kerensky, if you do not fight them they have the ability to strike your rear – or they could be transported to the TH (now the Amaris Empire) and reinforce the forces within.
Sorry but I cannot see Amaris’ Secret Army laying down their arms once the SLDF decides to leave them alone at the start of the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War!
So in reality Kerensky cannot declare a cease fire with the periphery – he will have to now fight on multiple fronts …
Within the Rim Worlds, Magistracy of Canopus, Taurian Concordat and the Outworlds Alliance in order to destroy all of Amaris forces within these realms …… and at the same time;
And with whatever remains he will have to then attack the TH ….. War on 5 fronts to start with …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/14/20 12:51 PM
66.74.60.165
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So Stefan was angling to make Kerensky look like he was disobeying orders, to give him some leverage against him. Whic makes sense.
The idea that other forces were increased suggests the SL did not have good intel on the periphery states, or at least the RWR. But it does have a large issue of where the machines came from. The warships being the biggest issue. It is hard to hide a shipyard making them, if the periphery was as lacking of tech and such as the game makes it sound like.
And the ships seemed to be updated to the time, as there is nothing saying they were out of date.
A conspiracy theory just popped into my mind on how the developers might start another war with this.
A secret production world that was deeper in the periphery that only a few in the RWR command knew about, but was missed during the wars. It would have to be out the 'left' side of the IS maps, as the clans would probably have found it on their way in. With it running since the RWR was destroyed, there could well be a huge warship stockpile just waiting to be used. It is possible some of those that fled the RWR, including the leaders family members, could have gone there, increasing the population up to a point that it could sustain itself and grow dramatically. A few worlds could be colonized and expand that population base.
Back to the thread...
Declaring a cease fire, and actually having the periphery honor it isn't the same thing. It basically says Kerensky was pulling out. It was not a peace treaty or anything more lasting. It also leaves the door open for them to return when ever they feel like it.
In 2750 the MAF had still had nine regiments (organized into a single Division) and a fleet of nine WarShips, however when they joined in with Stefan Amaris' conspiracy their forces were greatly expanded: by 2765 they were well equipped with 20 Divisions (consisting of 22 conventional and 108 'Mech regiments) and a naval fleet of 22 vessels. While MAF units on paper, most of these are essentially part of Amaris' "Secret Army" and those which weren't destroyed in the New Vandenberg Uprising did not survive long after the Succession Wars cut off any Inner Sphere support.[14]
This suggests part of why the SLDF was looking for more troops. They were not sure of what they were facing. But more to the point, the forces were available BEFORE the periphery war started. Other then raiding SL bases, there seems to be no way Amaris could have accumulated these forces. The plan or increase of units had to be going on before Amaris was born.
But this may also be part of why Kerensky paused outside of the TH. He wanted to make sure the periphery was not going to strike him from behind, and to see if the cease fire was going to hold. The world by world advance would support this fear. Making sure he could remove Amaris without opening up to a rear attack would make sense.
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Requiem
07/14/20 07:23 PM
1.158.211.140
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So Stefan was angling to make Kerensky look like he was disobeying orders, to give him some leverage against him. Which makes sense.
The issue is that of a lawful order – Stefan cannot provide Kerensky with a lawful order as he is not the lawful ruler – he usurped his position and as such is an illegal ruler – thus war to settle the issue.
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The idea that other forces were increased suggests the SL did not have good intel on the periphery states, or at least the RWR.
Pitiful writing and not understanding what is going on in the problem – the right hand did not know what the left was writing at the time appears to be issue.
When combined they contradict each other as to what is occurring within the Territorial realms (Periphery States) as at that time.
The entire Amaris-Kerensky Civil War is full of pot holes – just as the Clan war contains holes and when investigated both are not a very comprehensive / accurate story as to what is occurring …. Given all the mathematical data … and mathematics figures does not lie, they just are!
So what does this suggest - the Amaris’ forces must have been given a command override and departed their initial locations for that of the TH and the SLDF were unable to stop them from getting to the TH first? And given the limited forces of each of the Territorial States they too quickly gave up the fight.
Thus yes the SLDF intel was way off the mark with regards to what was actually going on …..
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as the clans would probably have found it on their way in.
If the Clans had discovered a world of RWR people they would have committed genocide on the world in question and destroyed everything for being tainted. Especially if the Jaguars had found it first ….
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Declaring a cease fire, and actually having the periphery honor it isn't the same thing. It basically says Kerensky was pulling out. It was not a peace treaty or anything more lasting. It also leaves the door open for them to return when ever they feel like it.
And leave who knows how many Amaris forces at his back?
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the forces were available BEFORE the periphery war started.
Yes this is why Stefan sent the forces, to get the SLDF out of the TH so that he could take the throne and the TH …..
The problem is what next? Keep them fighting in the Periphery …. Recall them to the TH / RWR or use them to strike at any SLDF Bases in their rear to keep Kerensky from amassing a large enough of a force to invade the TH and Terra.
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Making sure he could remove Amaris without opening up to a rear attack would make sense.
Problem is that these forces are there and they belong to Stefan Amaris; Can you depart with these forces in your rear – ready to strike? If you just do nothing lunacy!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/15/20 03:42 AM
66.74.60.165
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Funny thing about usurping things. You once said that if you get away with it, then it is yours. Amaris did get away with it, and with the even rigged elections, the TH/SL had a new leader. Kerensky would be seen as a deserter in this case.
I don't like or agree with it, but it can be considered legal.
The forces that went to the TH were known, as Amaris 'offered' them to Richard. Those going to the TC, MoC, AO, and other periphery states were the issue. Those were not know.
And I agree that the retcon of how many forces were there and used does not agree with the story put up. It makes it sound like the only units sent into the Periphery were those in the TH, and nothing was sent from the 5 house areas.
That is why I said the clans couldn't have found a secret world. The clans would definitely destroy the world.
And now the flip flop. Kerensky wouldn't know how many forces would be at his back going to the TH. The same fear would be bypassing worlds to hit Terra. But as said already, this may be why Kerensky paused outside of the TH. To make sure the periphery wasn't heading into his backside.
I think you missed the point of the forces were sent out before the periphery war started. That meant Amaris had a lot more units then what was there fighting the SL as well as what was sent to the TH. So how many more regiments and warships did they build to do this and still have the forces to garrison the TH? And this was all missed entirely.
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Requiem
07/15/20 08:36 AM
1.158.211.140
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Known Warships applicable to Territorial State (Periphery) Navies
Roe Weapon Systems – within the Rim Worlds manufactures - Bonaventure Corvette – Pinto Corvette.
Rim Worlds Territorial State Navy circa 2765
Bonaventure Corvette – 32
Pinto Corvette – 52
Carson Destroyer – 18
Mako Covette – Sold to RWTS by DC – Number Unknown
Monsoon Battleship – 7
Tracker Surveillance – 1
Known Warships within the Amaris Secret Army and to be a part of the 270 sent to the TH
Dart Cruiser – used to secure the shipyards over Mars
Stefan Amaris Battleship – 1
Vigilant Corvette – 30
Other Territorial State (Periphery) Warships used within the Amaris Civil War
Athena (Warship Class) - MoC
Concordat Frigate – TC 6 & MoC 1
Vincent Corvette – TC – 1
Wagon Wheel Frigate – TC (plus other periphery navies)
The TH had a new leader (by force not choice), as for the SL this is a disputed subject, hence the war.
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The forces that went to the TH were known, as Amaris 'offered' them to Richard. Those going to the TC, MoC, AO, and other periphery states were the issue. Those were not know.
Actually the BattleMech / Conventional Forces / Warship Numbers are known – canon numbers are provided within Sarna.
And this is the problem, once the numbers are known – how becomes unknown – and then there is the question of where are these military industrial facilities circa 3025 onwards …. The more information is discovered the more unknowns require answers – such as where were all the warships manufactured (as noted above)?
As for the breakaway just prior to Amaris Coup – the only combatants were the SLDF and the Periphery States + Amaris’ shadow armies – all Great Houses sat out of the game.
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Kerensky wouldn't know how many forces would be at his back going to the TH. The same fear would be bypassing worlds to hit Terra.
Disagree – yes once contact is made within the periphery the size of the enemy can be determined by military intelligence over a period of time.
As for the TH yes I agree Kerensky would only have knowledge as to the Forces that have been seen by the SLDF prior to the Coup – they should have kept him informed as to the goings on within the TH as well as the security of Terra.
All he then needs to do is dispatch his surveillance Jump-ships as reconnaissance and let military intelligence and his spy agencies do their thing.
So over a period of time he should have a fairly comprehensive idea as to what is going on within the TH and upon Terra.
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But as said already, this may be why Kerensky paused outside of the TH. To make sure the periphery wasn't heading into his backside.
Only a complete idiot would leave forces in the rear and go charging off to attack a new target of opportunity – However when you factor in the size of the SLDF from the get go Kerensky has enough to keep the forces in the Periphery pinned down – strike at the Rim World Territory – and at the same time send a strike force at Terra.
As for sitting outside – this is beyond an egregious error ….
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I think you missed the point of the forces were sent out before the periphery war started. That meant Amaris had a lot more units then what was there fighting the SL as well as what was sent to the TH. So how many more regiments and warships did they build to do this and still have the forces to garrison the TH? And this was all missed entirely.
Rim Worlds Territorial State
……………………………………………………Rim World…….…Shadow……..Hegemony……....Total Forces
BattleMech Regiments ……………….90* (approx.)……….292………………100…………………482
Conventional Regiments…………..….30* (approx.)……..75 (approx.)…..44 (approx.)…149 (approx.)
Warships ………………………………….....110 (min.)…………..46…………………..270………………426 (approx.)
Mechant-men Ships……….…………….complement necessary to transport all land / air forces etc.
Note: Rim Worlds Warships does not include Mako Corvettes sold to them form the DC.
So far this is complete amount of information discovered as to Amaris’ forces ….. and it is still below one seventh of that of the complete SLDF as calculated …. The figures are just not there for a prolonged war between Amaris and the Rim Worlds Territorial State … there needs to be some technological advantage that Amaris has that equalizes the numerical advantage ….
Two things comes to mind ….
Chameleon Light Polarization Shield and Enterprise Vigilant Corvette – Super Carrier
Once one side starts using nukes then the other will reciprocate in kind – so that’s out.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/15/20 08:37 AM)
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ghostrider
07/15/20 12:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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As someone stated before, the SLDF did not have some TROs or other books stating every last thing the enemy had. We get the full numbers, but the in story characters don't The fact that the periphery had more ships and troops then they should have, would put an unease feeling into the military Intel.
So it is possible in their minds, that the periphery was holding back units to start hitting weak garrisons, once the SLDF had turned it's attention elsewhere.
This concept, as well as the fact they had no real idea just how many or even where to leave a token force in the periphery, to even attempt to pin in periphery troops. Other then having contact with those troops, trying to pin point them at any one time would be impossible. With the 3d way of the universe, the concept you propose to hit Terra with come back and negate the idea of pinning in troops.
If the SLDF knew how many and where the troops were, they would not have needed so many more troops to do anything.
The idea of having enemy behind you as you charge a new point isn't being a complete idiot, as most raids, as well as more then a few necessary attacks have had to do that. Pushing up the beaches in Normandy was done, even though there were large chunks of the defenses still very much in tact. It had to be done to remove several threats. Main ones is pin down any Axis reinforcements, as well as silence artillery that could reach the beach and support the defense forces there.
Same concepts can be applied to any battle. You are trying to stop a nuclear meltdown started by an enemy. You are not going to engage the delaying force to destroy them all before heading past them. You are going to do your best to punch thru and hope you damage them enough to avoid pursuit. This could also just be them moving up weapons, such as artillery. Taking an enemy's ammo dump and such.
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Requiem
07/15/20 07:08 PM
1.158.211.140
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We get the full numbers, but the in story characters don't The fact that the periphery had more ships and troops then they should have, would put an unease feeling into the military Intel.
Yes I agree that the in story characters would have unease …. Once Richard announced his secret alliance with the Rim World’s First Consul this should have produced a ripple of unease ….
Problem is that Military Intelligence would have been keeping a very close watch over every and all military assets brought into the TH and that information would have been relayed to the SLDF C3 aboard Kerensky’s Flagship within the Territorial States (Periphery);
The most bizarre issue however is the is the issue of the Rim Wolds Territorial State Military Limitations as laid down by the Reunification War (2577-2597) and the aftermath Territorial Treaty in which included a disarmament provision – restricting the Worlds Territorial State to only 8 light BattleMech Regiments and 4 Conventional Regiments (The idea was to reduce the Rim Worlds Territorial States armed forces to a size where they could never succeed form the Star League and endanger the neighboring states.). Which was then modified with the Council Edict of 2650 - The Act allows the Rim Worlds Republic to increase its military form 8 light BattleMech Regiments and 4 Conventional Regiments to 12 BattleMech Regiments of various sizes and 8 Conventional Regiments. However by 2760 – Officially the Rim Worlds Republic visible military has been increased to 30 BattleMech and 10 Conventional Regiments. However the Rim Royal Guard Act has allowed the Republic’s Military to expand its military to more than tripling this figure.
Thus despite the rules limiting the military of every House / Territorial State (Periphery) by 2766 Amaris walks in the front door of the TH with 144 Regiments (100 of which was Mechs) to take up positions with the SLDF Bases ….. and when did the 270 Warships and arrive within the TH? …. No one even reacts to the point that Amaris has arrived with a Naval Armada of 270 Warships? Or did it arrive after Terra and Cameron Fell? Then there is the question how do you get 270 ships from the Rim Worlds Territorial State to that of the TH without having every alarm bell ringing? As no House / Territorial state would have been allowed a force this large ….. and this is one of the prime duties of the SLDF to restrict the size of any House / Territorial state to the Legal minimum (Legal Disarmament).
Please Explain …..
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So it is possible in their minds, that the periphery was holding back units to start hitting weak garrisons, once the SLDF had turned it's attention elsewhere.
This is one of the many questions military intelligence is asking – who, where and how were these forces established as each of the Territorial States (Periphery) has a military on par with a single Amy unit of the SLDF. (Their questions will be realized when Amaris notifies Kerensky of Richard Cameron’s death and his appointment as “First Lord”.
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With the 3d way of the universe, the concept you propose to hit Terra with come back and negate the idea of pinning in troops.
Mobility is key in this war – however if you can create a blockade of a world then any forces on that world can be hunted down – first by satellites / ship cameras looking for their heat blooms / radio traffic – then by forces sent down to hunt them down.
However, the real problem with a war within these Territorial states is that of the limited number of worlds. A full frontal assault upon the SLDF by an Amaris’ shadow forces is pointless if your aim is to pin the SLDF within the Territorial State for a long period of time. So what we are looking at here is another Vietnam!
Let me explain using the TC – at this time frame there is only 18 worlds and Amais’ Secret Army arrived via the Deep Periphery – what this means is that they could have already established multiple bases on multiple worlds within what would be known at that time frame as the Deep Periphery. (and they could have been establishing these bases over many, many years thus they could have created defensive positions / fortress brains etc. established on these worlds as well as underground tunnels etc to create kill worlds that the SLDF will be hard pressed to fight against What this means is that you can use maps further in history to show these worlds – and then put Amaris forward fire bases on them). Thus Amaris Forces can raid the SLDF on whim on the TC’s 18 worlds and if necessary can retreat to worlds within the Deep Periphery – What this also means is that Kerensky will be required to send his fleet out to these unknown systems in an attempt to hunt down Amaris’ shadow forces and once found he will require a massive amount of forces to dislodge / destroy them - in all reality this could take years for Kerensky’s SLDF to complete a massive number search and destroy missions within the Deep Periphery (and hoping your forces are attacked so that you can find them) whist at the same time protecting the TC 18 worlds (which he is using for his forward bases / logistical bases). Which are now a target for Amaris’ shadow forces for raids. Thus what we are looking at is a space battle that has the same characteristics as the Vietnam soldiers within the jungle or on leave in Saigon (terrorist bombings / Tet offensives etc.)
And, just like Vietnam, Kerensky will need more and more ships and troops to conduct search and destroy missions within the Deep Periphery (at that time).
Also if Kerensky pulls his forces out too early just imagine the amount of damage they could cause in your rear.
I would also like to point out one other tactic no one has considered – pulling the Great Houses into the War – if Amaris has such a small force in comparison to that of SLDF – asking for assistance from the Great Houses is pointless – what your forces need to do is create a situation that makes it look as if the SLDF attacked one or more of the Great Houses - you need to get their people riled up against the SLDF – forcing the Hand of their Ruler so that they will have no choice but to declare war on the SLDF.
For the DC this would not have been that difficult – when researching the era before the coup it is obvious that the Rim Worlds and the DC had a strong relationship – the idea that Stefan would take DC hostages is ludicrous – they are Allies prior to this so why not bring them into the war?
Read the Council Edit of 2650 - It also furthered the divide between the Draconis Combine and the Star League as the many within the Combine viewed the Edict as a means of preventing the Combine from growing too powerful.
The DC always wanted the SL and the SLDF destroyed - if this was Amaris’ aim from the get go rather than becoming the next First Lord and creating the Amaris Empire I am under the firm belief that the DC would have joined him in the war to destroy both. And once one Great House is in the War the others will also have to choose a side lest the DC gains access to the TH and all of their military industrial complexes – Navy and Army! – thus disrupting the balance of power – they cannot allow a stronger Great House on their border ….
Thus we now have the First Inner Sphere War – A war where the majority of all the Great Houses / Territory States (Periphery) are at war with one another.
If you wanted chaos war in the Inner Sphere – here it is!
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The idea of having enemy behind you as you charge a new point isn't being a complete idiot, as most raids, as well as more then a few necessary attacks have had to do that.
Where both sided have a small force – not a problem.
Where both sides have a massive force – not a chance – a rear guard force will be required less you will be attacked from the rear and the flanks all at once.
Normandy – forward assault upon fixed positions …… not a true example as the Germans are not in your rear this is a breakthrough …
Example that should be considered is the Anzio landings ….
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You are not going to engage the delaying force to destroy them all before heading past them. You are going to do your best to punch thru and hope you damage them enough to avoid pursuit.
Cold War USA Tactics? Sorry but no thanks – putting a small nuclear weapon on a recoilless rifle and then putting that on a jeep (Davy Crockett – Nuke) then using that to destroy your enemy so that your forces can then walk through irradiated areas to destroy the enemy is not what I would describe as a great idea …..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uDWwUToP_8
You tube video of M38A1 Jeep with M28 Davy Crockett nuclear recoilless rifle walk around ….
also like to point out that these are the type of Nukes that an army would have during the succession wars!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/15/20 09:05 PM
66.74.60.165
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The idea of having bases elsewhere is true for all the periphery states. They could hide it much better then the houses, as they are not as boxed in. The houses have a more limited area they can maneuver in, though their sheer size would suggest his is wrong. the fact that they were being watched better then the periphery would be why this is more likely.
Bringing in the DC to fight the SL wouldn't happen, as the DC would not do so, unless the SDLF was hurt far more then what they were. They had to maintain the illusion of being a good member of the SL. Not only to avoid the SLDF hitting them, but in this era, the FS and LC would as well. Even without orders, they would probably say they were helping the SLDF. So this would probably have meant the DC declined such a deal.
The numbers of regiments the RWR showed up to Terra with, would have caused Kerensky to relocate as many units as he could to cover the TH. If that meant removing one of the 3 armies from each house, then so be it. The fact they had so many would have caused a full shut down of almost anything else, even if it meant going against orders from Richard himself. There is NO way any security force would have allowed the armies.
This would be the first sign that someone wasn't telling the truth with intel. It would make me wonder if the head or one of the higher ups in SL intel wasn't part of the coup. I can see missing a few regiments, as they would be spread out covering worlds, while others would be hiding, but that would be maybe a dozen max, if even that.
Not a cold war tactic, but a real war scenario. The enemy has artillery or nukes or what even weapon behind their lines that will cause massive damage if not stopped. Your force will not stand and fight the perimeter untis for hours, as they don't have the time to spare. They will punch thru and run to remove the threat. The idea that the enemy will send pursuit units to slow you down and hoping they take you out would happen. It has happened in real wars, maybe not the nuke, but other issues. The troops that air dropped into Bolagne, I believe it was, is a prime example of this. So was that stupidity to do so? Or a great way to tie up Axis forces trying to remove them?
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Requiem
07/16/20 09:58 PM
1.158.211.140
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They could hide it much better than the houses, as they are not as boxed in.
If I remember correctly, this isn’t exactly correct – The problem being the 2D nature of the Map (though how you create a 3D version for a book would be interesting.) creates a limiting bias in understanding the nature of Planets in space.
Thus you need to consider that for every world seen on the Inner Sphere Map there is thousands of worlds surrounding this world in a vast 3D area – though when placed on a 2D Map they can produce the illusion of being close but this may not necessarily be true – they could be 100 Light Years away it is the illusion of a 2D map upon a compressed 3D System that causes the issue. As such these worlds that exist all around the worlds on the 2D Map should also be investigated for their suitability.
This is a point of contention for me – I believe that every Military throughout the entire Inner Sphere history should have a space cartography / geological survey unit. Not only do they hunt for “Rare Metals” that are required in the manufacture of most of the weapons manufactured, they also ‘scout’ for the suitability of systems that could be used in protecting the realms more vital infrastructure – at the top of the list Ship-yards – especially Warship and Commercial Jump-ship, then weapons manufacturing, then hidden bases for military / Politicians (Ruling Family) especially during a nuclear war.
Not only does it ensure the continuality of government it also produces a reason for nations not to go to war due to the uncertainty of war to start with – if you do not know where your opposite state’s military is and its actual size, how are you going to attack? You may attack but could find your forces in that area quickly overwhelmed. Thus in reality the wars would be fought 99% of the time in the shadows in hidden systems surrounding the populated worlds. Thus making the capture of a world only necessary once your forces have enveloped / annexed all the 3D space surrounding it
If a 2D Map is to be used then I consider that there should be a hard and fast rule limiting Jumpships to their range and also from one world on the Map to the next – thus forcing the military armies to move one world to the next on the 2D map and at the same time making it illegal to move into space between worlds – thus the 3039 war move becomes an illegal move without establishing more worlds on the map to begin with.
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Bringing in the DC to fight the SL wouldn't happen
The issue is geopolitics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geopolitics
The Saga of Tanya the Evil put it best …. Manga graphic novel volume 3 …. Converted to Battletech …
“There will be an Inner Sphere wide war – most (if not all) of the powers will be dragged into a conflict that reaches a Inner Sphere wide scale. The Rim Worlds are an emerging state power and comparing to the others they boast an advantage.
With the exception of the Star League and the Star League Defense Force, in a one on one fight the Rim Worlds would surely emerge victorious.
Its difficult to believe that any of the Great Houses would simply stand by while that happens.
They will be forced to confront the question of whether they should allow the birth of a new dominant state or take action to stop it.
If the Rim Worlds were able to take the Terran Hegemony, positioned in the centre of the map, and eliminates the Star League they will have a relative advantage … but will it be an absolute superiority?
(Consider the damage to both sides at this stage)
Thus if the Rim Wolds can’t eliminate the Star League and the Star League Defense Force quickly …. without giving the Great Houses room to interfere …. the conflict will trigger a domino effect that will involve the other Great Houses.
That’s why they’ll try to make it so both Rim Worlds and the Star League fall – this can be achieved with providing both sides weapons and volunteer troops.
Then when both the Rim Worlds and the Star League have exhausted themselves ... they will swoop in and take everything – some may even team up with other powers for a direct intervention against the remaining forces of both sides.
Thus for the Rim Worlds to achieve peace is making attrition of Star league Human Resources their top priority – they must crush the Star League’s ability to continue fighting – They need to keep their military in-tact (as far as they can) so that if necessary they can deliver a decisive blow against any of the other Great Houses – retain strategic flexibility.
The Rim Wolds will need to exhaust the Star League Army via tactical disruption and penetrating raids upon the remaining Star League soldiers.
Minimize Rim World Losses – consider the attritional containment doctrine.”
To which I believe is apt in this case …
Consider ….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attrition_warfare
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containment
Clearly the war within the Terran Hegemony initially succeeded.
The problem is the Territorial Regions (Periphery States) Wars and the war within the Rim Worlds itself.
Each state must use attrition containment warfare and pin down as many Star League Armies as they can. Making sure that Kerensky will not have any available forces to move on the Terran Hegemony – and then exhaust the Star League as quickly as possible.
Otherwise the Great Houses will interfere and there will be an Inner Sphere war once the Rim Worlds and the Star League are exhausted.
The idea that all the Great Houses will have a sit down with an exhausted Kerensky at the end of the war is farcical – They will just attack, thus producing an Inner Sphere wide war ….
Given the length of time it requires to build the Rim worlds Territorial State’s Shadow Army – currently I am looking at 150 years – there must have been a massive amount of War Games Data and discussions on the subject and viewed from every perspective. A master plan must have been produced somewhere along the line.
The idea that all the hard work that went into producing this war would be undone by an idiot / sadist etc. like the canon Stefan Amaris is beyond ludicrous.
This is why I have decided to create my own Alt Universe: Territorial States – Star League Segregation War …. and move on from there ….
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The numbers of regiments the RWR showed up to Terra with, would have caused Kerensky to relocate as many units as he could to cover the TH.
The problem is not only the size of the SLDF – 20 Armies – Like the 20 Clans …..
Even with all the data –
3 Territorial States – 9 Armies (3 each) Initially ;
Rim Worlds Territorial State – 6 Armies Initially;
However, this still leaves 4 ½ (or there about) to engage the forces within the TH;
In all reality the idea of becoming a new Fist Lord just does not work given all the available information – thus the need to adopt a new radical shift in my logic.
What is it that the Rim Worlds wants after spending 150 years working towards a war – taking over or freedom?
And this is what my Alt Universe rewrite is going to be about – not a war of conquest but a war of disbandment from the Star League.
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There is NO way any security force would have allowed the armies.
I agree this entire premise is impossible.
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The idea that the enemy will send pursuit units to slow you down and hoping they take you out would happen. … The troops that air dropped into Bolagne…
Is this the Battle of Bologna? …. Except this is a ground battle and the last major battle in Italy.
Major Paratrooper Engagements include
Crete – took the entire island
Sicily – created confusion
Normandy – yes they punched through here
Market Garden – for the most part they punched through (except for the last bridge)
and one minor one of interest …
Gran Sasso Raid by Otto Skorzeny - liberated Benito Mussolini
I would also like to add one more point of interest
Has anyone looked at the Military Dropships of this era?
The majority of Military Dropships are the Dictator, Lee (three variants), Czar (two variants) and Triumph (three variants) – as for Overlord (Started Production 2762) and Union (Started Production 2708).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/17/20 02:51 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue with the SL having troops stationed across the houses is why it would be a little more difficult for them to hide things, like extra troops or construction facilities then the periphery could. What would be uninhabited systems for most, could well host some sort of bases that no one would know about, as few, if any even go out that far.
That is where the story seems to lose their numbers. The RWR making that many units, yet the houses couldn't tells the story that the periphery WAS beyond the rules of the IS. I am not sure if it was illegal for them to do so. They were not really part of the SL. It may well have been the houses wanting the first lord to increase their troop numbers, as the periphery was becoming a real issue to their security. Granted, if they weren't so nasty to the periphery states, they may not have had any issues.
There is the Confederate dropship that is in the 2750 TRO,
As I don't have any information on the rest of them, I can't say if they are good or bad for dropships with the exception of the standard 3025 version of the Triumph.
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Requiem
07/17/20 04:09 PM
1.158.211.140
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The issue with the SL having troops stationed across the houses is why it would be a little more difficult for them to hide things,
Difficult ….. yes, Impossible ……no
Consider our world as is, if it has only one SLDF Garrison on it how could they surveillance the entire world at once?
Ans: Satellites, and yet their trajectory can also be mathematically calculated to determine blind spots. As long as it is not evident as to what is going on it would be very difficult to detect. Example: WW2 – Partisans were able to create a weapons manufacturing plant in a bicycle repair shop.
Consider creative solutions within hidden locations. Or create a front that looks and acts like a business and yet has a hidden façade – as long as you are able to maintain the front and not draw unwarranted attention why would anyone investigate?
Worlds can be very large and garrisons and those within are so very small – they SLDF cannot be everywhere, and then once major facilities are off world how long will it be before they become self-sufficient?
Once base worlds become self sufficient, hidden within the Deep Periphery, the only resource left is people ….. and again the SLDF cannot be on every world. Registry computerized information can be manipulated, people are there one day, gone the next only their community would know they are gone – and if they are in on plan then it will be harder still.
Then when you are the Government it is easier still – capital works can allow for hidden construction at the same time during a building contract.
Only something out of the normal, bad luck?, could cause an issue if it has been well thought out.
And in this case the RWR must have established a very well thought out plan to allow the creation of their Shadow army. The big question is where are all these facilities in the far future as no one has even scratched the surface when it comes to the size and scope of the RWR’s facilities required during this age.
It must be remembered that the RWR must have become the second largest manufacturing state in the IS at that time!
The Lyrans were never able to capitalize on this fact during the succession wars!
They must have gone looking for them – so why didn’t they find them? …. Or didn’t anyone think through the back story issues, as written at the time, and we are only now getting around to it?
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if they weren't so nasty to the periphery states, they may not have had any issues.
Territorial Treaty following the Reunification War (2577-2597)
Given all my reading so far the treaty consisted of the following …..
Territorial Treaty - Each former Periphery state was assigned a Territorial Status within the Star League, whereby …. Each Territorial State will be …
Restricted Membership – restricted access to the High Council, through their Star League Administrator only, and no voting rights, as well as having no say in their taxation and tithe requirements;
Appointed a Star League Administrator (During a High Council emergency meeting, if the matter being discussed involves a Territorial State, its Administrators can attend the meetings and participate, but were not given the right to vote.); An Administrator is assigned to each Sate (permanently living on each capitol world) and they effectively have veto over each periphery Government’s actions and as part of their duties they will be sending reports to the Star League on Terra as to each Territorial States activities; (Nt. Council Directive 41 – 2722 – removal of their Administrators as from this point forward)
Reparations - Required to-meet their taxation and conscription tithe requirements (personnel) to the Star League Defence and the Star League; Refer here to Executive order 34 – “reaffirmed the right of the Star League Defense Force to recruit from any member state without interference from its government.”
Territorial Concessions - Provide the Star League Defence Force – 20th Army – with garrisons and fortresses throughout the Rim Worlds Territory;
Disarmament – Initially restricted the Rim Worlds Territorial State to only 8 light BattleMech Regiments and 4 Conventional Regiments (The idea was to reduce the Rim Worlds Territorial States armed forces to a size where they could never succeed form the Star League and endanger the neighboring states.);
Also refer to The Council Edict of 2650 – this allowed the RWR to increase their military size – however this reduced the size of the DCMS – effectively creating the first Ronin and the First Hidden War.
Travel Limitations – RWR citizens’ access to travel outside their Territorial Stare was restricted.
So it is no wonder that the people within these Territorial states resented (and came to hate) the Star League –to such an extent that they formed a secret cabal and worked together to overthrow the Star League (as seen via their cooperation with regards to allowing the shadow army into each of their realms.)
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There is the Confederate dropship that is in the 2750 TRO, As I don't have any information on the rest of them.
Ever Dropship can be found within - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:DropShip_classes
Note: The “Category:” section of the sarna wiki is very helpful when researching topics.
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Question with regards to Executive order 34 - reaffirmed the right of the Star League Defense Force to recruit from any member state without interference from its government.
The discovery of Executive order 34 required me to ask the following consider the following site …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Amaris_Civil_Wa
Under the Heading – Civil War – contained the following quote, “Both sides then requested aid, which was flatly refused by each Territorial State and each Inner Sphere State.”
However Executive Order 34 gives Kerensky the LEGAL right of effectively nationalizing every House’s Military into the SLDF and thereby providing him with the additional forces to crush Amaris ……
Remember at this stage he still has the biggest army and the navy on the block and the Star League is still operational … and if the Houses said no then it is now a revolt by every IS House against the legal authority of the SL and the SLDF.
Also as Amaris had effectively taken the throne why didn’t he also attempt to use Executive Order 34 – and by doing so effectively throwing the entire IS into a constitutional nightmare as to the duties of the individual states to that of the Star League?
This one act alone could have triggered an IS wide war where Kerensky is now not only at war with Amaris, he is now also at war with all of the renegade Houses that refuse his order under Executive Order 34.
Sorry but this is a now a massive black hole within the story ….
Going it alone against Amaris and the having well over 90% of your entire forces destroyed shows a lack of military and political understanding …..Kerensky is by far one of the most incompetent Generals the IS has ever produced.
War is about time – minimizing it – that means shock and awe tactics, with the Houses assistance - complete devastation of Amais – what it also means is that the Houses are in no shape to fight each other for the throne (for the foreseeable future) and once it is discovered that the Cameron line is gone – What this also means is that this gives Kerensky the Political time he needs to come up with a solution to the Great Houses refusal to elect a new First Lord.
Thus Kerensky was in no way a consummate politician – inept comes to mind here!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/18/20 04:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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Again. The issues with retconning things is anyone that has known of the history, can spot the holes in the information. I believe someone stated that the LC was trying to use economic means to infiltrate and take over some of the RWR industries. The war ended that.
Some facilities are done just by needing a coms technician in a remote area, and they start building more then just the tech shack in secret. Covers make great ways to hide things in plain sight. The more remote the area, the better the chances are.
Stupid ideas may well be the start of such bases, such as someone building a company factory for boats on a world that doesn't have much water to use them on. The premise being they will ship them off world, then declare bankruptcy.
Toxic spills is yet another way to take over a building for such an plan. Other things like a nuclear dump can cover for a massive base, though you don't use the area the public views the waste at.
The LC did annex a lot of RWR lands. It is most likely they did look for it, and found a lot of destroyed buildings. It is possible that say LOKI found some working ones and put in the claim that they were all destroyed, then used them for their purposes.
Kerensky may well have used the executive order, and the states said no. He probably refused to do anything as it would put an even further strain on the SLDF while he was going to remove Amaris. It does suggest Kerensky didn't seek the power that was there. Then again, he may well have avoided it, as he KNEW the house lords would refuse. This may well have had a major impact on his decision to leave.
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Requiem
07/18/20 08:50 PM
1.158.211.140
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I believe someone stated that the LC was trying to use economic means to infiltrate and take over some of the RWR industries.
I am not really surprised, given the Mother Doctrine imposed controls over a wide range of government and civilian technologies - restricting commerce within the Terran Hegemony – thus ensuring their Technological superiority over other Houses, the only recourse is that of the industrial espionage to level the technological playing field.
Also for the corporation under the edict – if the information was no longer restricted as it was now within the Inner Sphere wouldn’t they now be allowed to use that technology to sell their products Inner Sphere wide – more consumers = more profit = more wealth!
As for creating plausible deniability / front companies etc., yes there are a wide range of options / strategies available.
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The LC did annex a lot of RWR lands. It is most likely they did look for it, and found a lot of destroyed buildings.
The problem is that the LC never went into the Deep Periphery to investigate hidden outpost realms. Thus the RWR security team did their job and destroyed all evidence as to their existence.
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It is possible that say LOKI found some working ones and put in the claim that they were all destroyed, then used them for their purposes.
Problem is that if Loki – the LC security team – begins amassing military technology for their own use, this can only mean one thing – A coup is in the off, and it will be occurring soon!
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Kerensky may well have used the executive order, and the states said no.
Problem is that Kerensky cannot shrug off a no from the House Lords.
If enacted and they say no – the House Lords have effectively declared their independence from the Star League and as such the League is now in a de facto state of being disbanded (ie. it does not exist)!
This therefore creates the following domino effect – if the League no longer exists, then the tithe system no longer exists – hence all Houses’ personnel who enlisted into the SLDF via the tithe system are now in a state of libo as to the legality of their current enlistment – will they remain with the SLDF and serve out their term or will they leave and return to their house (and will they take their weapons with them - especially their naval and battlemech units)?
Will Kerensky demand they remain with the SLDF and shoot some of them for desertion? (Causing even more problems)
In all actuality the SLDF at this point in time could split completely into its Component House tithe armies, those willing to remain with the SLDF, and the Royal Units which are 100% TH enlisted personnel.
This is the point of why Amaris would use it as a WMD – it throws the entire SLDF into a massive quandary as to whom your allegiance lies – to the SL or to your House? If to your House this could effectively neutralize their superior numbers overnight!
House Amaris personnel will definitely defect back to Amaris and the RWR as well as those units where their personnel is from one of the other Territorial States (Periphery States). This could provide an example to others to defect back to their House from this early stage!
What it also creates is a military nightmare – what would Kerensky do next – retake the TH and then fight every House and Periphery in an attempt to reform the Star League and who for….. who is the First Lord he will Fight for? (as all the Houses / Periphery States have at this point gone rogue) or just take back the TH and accept the fact that the League no longer exists.
Then there is the issue of SLDF units with Houses – if the Star League no longer exists and the houses declare them persona non grata where do they go? what do they do? How do they get permission to move through realms that have declared their independence? Or even remain on any House Worlds to attack the TH?
This is the real fun when using Executive Order 34 – it really does throw the cats among the pigeons! It has the potential of fracturing the SL and the SLDF right from the start of the Civil War and creating a massive legal nightmare as to what the SLDF is allowed to do next.
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he KNEW the house lords would refuse.
As shown above – within the canon he asked for help and was rebuffed –if EO 34 was used then the League is effectively dead from that point onwards – the House Lords didn’t have to go to Terra at all – you are now at a succession war scenario way earlier than was predicted.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/19/20 06:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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Look at what you said above with the refusal of obeying order 34.
With Kerensky looking to take out Amaris, he could not afford any sort of actions against the houses. This very sets up the fall of the SL, with the house lords thinking they have the power. The SLDF is hurt, but the houses don't know how badly. It is possible they thought he was really on the ropes and would use the SLDF to bolster their own house forces to hit the others. When he would not even attempt to lie and say he would, they basically refused to believe anything other then they could take the throne.
Amaris using the WMDs on everyone he could, might well have come from the fact that he thought he was in complete control. or maybe trying to make the houses bow to him, as he would use any method at his means to force them. He alone had more forces then most of the houses put together. He may well have thought to split the SLDF forces, and removed that threat from his side, then would use them to hit the houses. The fact so many sided with Kerensky put that idea to rest.
The question of loyalty comes into effect here.
Those soldiers recruited from the house areas, what would they do?
They were only born in the house areas, so why would they return home?
They swore an oath to the SLDF and SL to serve. Not sure of the actually wording, but it may have included until death. Either way, They would have been honor bound to serve with Kerensky until a new first lord could be elected.
Or they could return home and serve the house leaders, as would be considered right for someone born in that area.
This is a very old problem. Even in the middle ages, this was a very important issue.
Given all of this, it can be seen why Kerensky decided to leave the IS? Soldiers fight, but what is left? A destroyed TH, with the house lords moving in to remove any sort of civil government as any one of them gets the position and the entire IS becomes what Amaris did. Even for the most dedicated soldier, this is NOT what they signed up for. They signed up to protect and defend all that claimed loyalty to the SL. They did not sign up to make worlds wastelands and kill millions, if not billions of innocent people because their leaders are greedy manipulative morons out for their own power.
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Requiem
07/20/20 01:17 AM
1.158.211.140
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Look at what you said above with the refusal of obeying order 34.
Yes, I know exact what was written and I know exact what it means – Aleksandr Kerensky is little more than a Lyran Social General – it is no wonder he went to the Nagelring!
In war as in politics you use your vassals first inflict damage upon your enemy, so as to judge their strength, and to limit any retribution by your vassals in the event your main army has been decimated by the enemy (as your vassals are unhurt if unused) – thus setting up the scene for a dissolution of the empire and a civil war between your vassals.
(as exactly what Kerensky allowed to occur …., further proof of his incompetence!)
Quote:
Amaris using … he would use any method at his means to force them.
Yes, he will use Executive Oder 34 at the earliest stage of the Coup ….. thus throwing the entire SL into a constitutional mess …. Who knows how many forces would have remained loyal to the SLDF and how many would have defected back to one the Great Houses …. Thus effectively destroying the Kerensky's forces …. Remember even with the defections unless a majority of the Navy moves to one specific House Amaris will still have the second largest Military in the IS!
Remember the Canon version did not take the nuclear option of using Executive Oder 34 – and it assumed that everyone would adhere to the Tithe System – in reality however with the writing on the wall as the destruction of the Star League what would the majority of the tithes warriors from the Great houses do?
My bet the House Lords would offer any SLDF personnel wishing to enter their service amnesty.
Thus the destruction of the Star League takes one step closer.
Quote:
He may well have thought to split the SLDF forces, and removed that threat from his side, then would use them to hit the houses
Problem is that Amaris forces inflicted over 90% damage to the SLDF Navy and Army – if he then attempted to take on the Houses he would have been destroyed utterly.
Quote:
They were only born in the house areas, so why would they return home?
No, at 18 they would be drafted for the SLDF as a tithe soldier – you really don’t have a choice in the matter – still want to stay with the SLDF?
Quote:
They swore an oath to the SLDF and SL to serve. Not sure of the actually wording, but it may have included until death.
Some may take the oath to heart, but how many if forced into the situation would keep it – How many at the end of the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War ended up joining one House or another rather than remaining with Kerensky and with the last remnants of the SLDF?
Yes I agree it is a vey important issue when you realize the majority of the SLDF came as a Tithe warrior from one of the Great Houses or a Territorial State (Periphery).
It is a great way at destroying the SLDF without even one shot being fired.
Quote:
Given all of this, it can be seen why Kerensky decided to leave the IS? Soldiers fight, but what is left? A destroyed TH
A soldier does not fight to destroy, a soldier fights to preserve and to rebuild.
Kerensky’s Exodus is just coward’s way out!
Remember the Gretest General of his time Commanding General of the SLDF Ikolor Fredasa A thoughtful and intelligent Commander who’s personal loyalty was dedicated to the League as a whole and ideals of the Star League, rather than to the First Lord; and
His belief that the SLDF maintains a mandate of protecting and maintaining the peace between Star League Members.
Running away is in no way maintaining this belief!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/20/20 08:26 PM)
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Requiem
07/28/20 11:11 PM
1.158.133.26
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My Alt Universe LDF Rank Structure:- Existing structure too restrictive for a military the size of the SLDF.
Star League Marshal - Combined Arms Commander-in Chief;
Field Marshal – Member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff;
General –Army;
Lieutenant General – Corps;
Major General – Division;
Brigadier – Brigade;
Colonel - Staff Officer / Regiment;
Lieutenant Colonel – Regiment;
Major – Battalion;
Captain – Company;
Lieutenant – Platoon / Lance;
Second Lieutenant;
Officer Cadet;
Senior Enlisted NCO - Advisor to the Chairman – Senior enlisted adviser to the Joint Chiefs of Staff;
Command Warrant Officer - Senior enlisted adviser to regiment commanding officer;
Senior Warrant Officer – Senior enlisted adviser to battalion commanding officer;
Warrant Officer – Senior enlisted adviser to company commanding officer;
Master Sergeant – management role of the regiment;
Color/Gunnery Sergeant – management role of battalion;
Staff Sergeant – management role of company;
Sergeant;
Corporal;
Lance Corporal;
Private;
Enlisted – undertaking training;
SLDF Award Structure:-
“Defending the awarding of medals, Napoleon once declared: “You call these baubles, well, it is with baubles that men are led… Do you think that you would be able to make men fight by reasoning? Never.”
Legion of Honor
The highest award for extreme courage in combat – extreme courage upholding the honor of the SLDF in defiance of overwhelming odds – Honorary Title “Keeper of the Star League’s Honor”;
Military Valor Cross
Awarded for gallantry and professionalism in the face of the overwhelming enemy forces;
Knight’s Liberation
Progressive award after winning the Knight’s Valor Medal;
Knight’s Valor
Progressive Award after winning the Knight’s Cross;
Knight’s Cross
Awarded for Valor in the face of enemy forces;
Silver Knight’s Star *
Gallantry in action against an enemy;
* With Oak leaf Cluster – denotes an additional second and subsequent awards;
Bronze Knight’s Star *
Heroic or meritorious achievement or service;
* With Oak leaf Cluster – denotes an additional second and subsequent awards;
Services Rendered Medal
Awarded to those wounded or killed while serving.
Gunslinger Clasp
Awarded to those who have undertaken a “Gunslinger” program.
Combat Action Clasp
Awarded for the active participation in combat actions or terrorist attack.
Armed Forces Deployment Clasp (Campaign Identification Clasp)
Awarded for military service in a designated military campaign.
SLDF Long Service Clasp – 10 years; 20 years (+ one pin); 30 years (+ two pins); 40 years (+ three pins).
Communication in the SLDF
Joint Chief of Staff (On Terra.) – (High Command)
To
Communications Command – HPG (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force#Communications_Command)
To
Castle Brian (On world) …. Or …. Naval Base (Orbital Faciliy) – lattice throughout the IS and Territory Regions. (Army Command)
To
Regular Command – Army / Navy / Special Forces - Castle Brian (On world) …. Or …. Naval Base (Orbital Faciliy – of which there are over 500 SLDF Naval Orbital bases scattered around the IS) – lattice throughout the IS and Territory Regions (Corp level)
To
To Individual Units in the field ….
- New Warship Class Required – Communications – Remains in deep space protected by Aerospace forces.
- Has Multiple HPG Built into the ship – upon arrival will transmit location back to Regional Command – eg. On Line : Location as follows …. (now placed into the lattice to receive HPG Transmissions – Position must exactly known (static /or have the ability to determine its exact location) to receive information via HPG network)
- Communicates via laser transmission to protect its location to Communications Drop-ships (Hub and spoke arrangement)
- Transmit information from Drop-ship(s) with all in-system Army / Navy forces –via Black-Box / Satellite relay transmission.
Black Box - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Box and https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator
“The culmination of their work was the first HPG station, built in 2629 just outside the Court of the Star League, which transmitted the first HPG message on New Year's Day 2630”
“Project TRANSIENT was terminated in 2614 and following the appearance of the much more capable Hyperpulse Generator in 2630 the SLDF Communications Command ordered all the Black Boxes collected and dismantled, but until then all worlds of the Star League received an exemplar”
Question: So it only took 30 years to put a HPG on every world within the IS and Territory Regions (Periphery)? How extensive in the SL engineering corp and manufacturing sites?
Question: if a HPG is destroyed in the Star League era what was the SLDF contingency plan? Pony- Express?
A very sort sighted plan – 1. Satellite Transmission (slow can take hours to reach the outer worlds) or 2. Black Box technology (Very Fast to reach the outer worlds) should have remained as a contingency and used in conjunction with HPG to maintain communication from Regional Command Corp / Army Level with any Units in System – especially if they are engaged in combat.
Thus the question must be asked as to how Amaris could disrupt communication in regards to the Canon Amaris-Kerensky War if the only stations removed was within the two periphery states, the Terran Hegemony and the Rim Worlds?
Day 1 – disrupt all communication between all 20 armies – where are the nexus points of all communication – take these out to create communication / tactics / strategies disruption within the SLDF? (at the minimum disrupt communication to increase the time of any retaliatory strike by the SLDF.)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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