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Issues with regards to the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War

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Requiem 07/03/20 06:53 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Combining Information within – Is Alexander Kerensky just incompetent or a villain and tyrant (fyi – all three) As this has progressed to a stage where it requires its own forum page Military forces prior to the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War:- SLDF Navy:- https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Essay:_SLDF_Naval_Doctrine#Late_SLDF_4 It is assumed that the fleet prior to the Amaris War included 200 Cruiser Class 300 Battleship Class 800 Frigate Class 300 Destroyer Class 1000 Corvette Class 3200 Assault Class Total 5,800 War-Ships Of these 2,600 ships mounted advanced weapons. SLDF Army:- https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force …. and then an excel sheet utilizing all 20 of the SLDF Armies, whist considering the following information contained therein …. BattleMech Divisions – consist of two ‘Mech brigades, one infantry brigade, one armored Brigade Mechanized Infantry Brigade – two mechanized infantry brigades, one ‘Mech Brigade, one armored brigade. Infantry Divisions – consist of two non-mechanized infantry brigades, one light ‘Mech Brigade, one armored Brigade Jump Infantry Divisions – two jump infantry brigades, one light ‘Mech brigade, one armored brigade, two wings A Division consists of 3 to 4 Brigades …. and a Brigade consists of 3 Regiments. Ground Units:- Heavy Assault – heavy-to-assault BattleMech units + fourth company of artillery Battle – medium-to-heavy BattleMech Striker – light-to-medium weight BattleMech Dragoon – heavy-to-assault BattleMech, tanks and hovercraft Hussar – medium-to-heavy BattleMechs, tanks and hovercraft Light Horse – light-to-medium BattleMechs and vehicles This originally provides the following information: Royal BattleMech Divisions ………………… 25 Royal Mechanized Infantry Divisions ……… 28 Royal Jump Infantry Divisions …………….. .13 Royal Infantry Divisions …………………….. 3 BattleMech Divisions ……………….…….… 95 Mechanized Infantry Divisions ……………. 165 Jump Infantry Divisions …………………….. 62 Infantry Divisions …………………………… 42 Independent Regiments …………………… 271 Once calculated this provides the a more definitive information package regarding the Land Army of the SLDF as at 2765 ….. BattleMech Regiments ………… 1,299 Additional ‘Mech Ground Units: Heavy-to-Assault …………………..18 Medium –to-Heavy …………….… 18 Light-to-Medium …………………. 23 Light ………………………………..360 …. Total ….. 1,708 Regiments Combined Arms Units: Heavy-to-Assault ‘Mechs + Vehicles ….. 72 Medium-to-Heavy ‘Mechs + Vehicles. … 49 Light-to-Medium ‘Mechs + Vehicles …... 49 …. Total …. 170 Regiments Armor Units: Armor …………………………. 1,299 Heavy Tank …………….……. 4 Medium Tank ……………..… 1 Light Tank …………………… 1 Hover …………………………. 3 Wheeled ………………….…. 1 ….. Total …… 1,309 Regiments Artillery Units: Artillery ………………………… 6 Regiments Infantry: Infantry………………..…….. 360 Jump Infantry …………..….. 45 Mechanized ……………….. 561 Non-Mechanized ………….. 270 CAAN Marine ……………… 15 Marine ………………………. 2 Royal French ………………. 3 (approximately) French Infantry ……………. 3 French Cavalry …………… .2 Grunt Infantry ……………… 1…… Total …….. 1,262 Regiments Total Regiments………………4,455 Regiments Aerospace: Wings ……………………….. 165 However there is conflicting Information as to SLDF at the end of the Amaris conflict ….. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force ‘Kerensky then led the surviving 113 divisions out beyond the Inner Sphere.” https://www.sarna.net/wiki/History_of_the_Star_League#Dissolution “Kerensky gathered 80 percent of the SLDF forces, and they jumped out of the Inner Sphere,” ….. 113 divisions equals 80% of the remaining land forces. Therefore 100% of the remaining land forces is 141.25 divisions However. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_EXODUS At the end of the civil war only 113 Divisions of the SLDF remained. At the end of the civil war only 113 Divisions of the SLDF remained. Of these units over a hundred agreed to follow Kerensky: thirty-two BattleMech divisions, seventy-six infantry divisions, and sixty-three independent regiments. A total of nearly six million personnel, a third of which were soldiers and the rest civilians, were carried in 1,349 JumpShips, 402 WarShips and over 5,000 DropShips. 1 Armored Division Remained 32 BattleMech Divisions Remained 76 Infantry Divisions Remained 63 Independent Regiments Remained Total 172 Regiments remained ….. And if this represents the total 80% that departed with Kerensky Then the 100% is now 215 Regiments Then there is the Navy – if 402 Warships is again 80% of the total fleet then 100% is 503 Ships Thus depending upon source material the SLDF Army is either 141 or 215 Regiments – and the navy is at 402 to 503 Ships. Force Depletion Report …………………..Prior to conflict……………..Post Conflict ………………..% Damage Navy……………..5,800 Warships…………….Max. 503 Warships…………91.3% destroyed Army…………….4,455 Regiments……………Max. 215 Regiments ………95.2% destroyed Then I would also like to stress the time between the End of the Amaris War and that of the Exodus – September 2779 to September 2784 – Between these two time periods was no effort placed in rebuilding and recruitment? https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_the_Federated_Suns As of 2765 they were well equipped with 110 'Mech regiments, and the naval fleet had a volume of 51 vessels. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Draconis_Combine_Mustered_Soldiery by 2765 this had increased to 115 well-equipped 'Mech regiments, with thousands of conventional regiments, and a naval fleet of 42 WarShips with several hundred fighter wings https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Free_Worlds_League_Military As of 2765 they were well-equipped with 95 'Mech regiments, and the naval fleet strength was listed at 47 vessels https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Capellan_Confederation_Armed_Forces#2765 By 2765 they were well equipped with 92 'Mech regiments, and a naval fleet of 37 vessels. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lyran_Commonwealth_Armed_Forces By 2765 this had increased to 90 'Mech regiments and 60 WarShips. Yes, by the end of the Civil War the SLDF is outnumbered when it comes to Land Forces House Army BattleMech Units as at 2765 RWR ………………….144 Regiments in the TH – considered to be half of their total forces AFFS………………….110 Regiments. DCMS………………….115 Regiments FWLM…………………95 Regiments CCAF………………….92 Regiments LCAF…………………. 90 Regiments Total House Numbers is at 502 Regiments (Compared to the SLDF’s 1,708 Regiments at the beginning of the war and the 215 Regiments at its end) However, when it comes to Warships …. House Warships as at 2765 RWR ………………….270 AFFS…………………..51 DCMS………………….42 FWLM…………………47 CCAF………………….37 LCAF………………….60 Total House Numbers is at 237 (Compared to the SLDF’s approximate 402 to 503 warships and also the RWR at 270) The entire IS Houses will have to engage the SLDF otherwise they will be severely outnumbered. House Warships as at 2765…………….. SLDF Warships (402)……….SLDF Warships (503) AFFS………………….51…………………(51 : 402)...1 : 7.9…………..……1 : 9.9 DCMS…………………42………………………………..1 : 9.6……..………..1 : 12.0 FWLM…………………47………………………………..1 : 8.6………………1 : 10.7 CCAF………………….37………………………………..1 : 10.9……………..1 : 13.6 LCAF………………….60 ……………………………….1 : 6.7……………….1 : 8.4 Total ………………… 237……………………………….1 : 1.7……………….1 : 2.1 On a one on one fight each individual House is at great disadvantage compared to the SLDF Navy. Quote: The numbers of ships suggest either a typo… The Poblem: What is Canon? And what is an error based upon miss-information? How difficult could it be to create a book / page on the official web site / page on sarna that amends any errors placed within previous texts so as to explain the truth of the situation? Information once provided can be analyzed and then debated. The problem here is the complete in-congruous of the information supplied …. Thus in order to maintain the 20 Armies of the SLDF as well as the damage inflicted upon the SLDF during the Kerensky-Amaris conflict and in addition to this the many of the entries regarding the Periphery conflict there is but one solution. That is the TO&E of the every House and Periphery state must be increased. May I suggest that every house is increased to 60-75% the comparable size of the SLDF and every Periphery State is at 30-55% that of the SLDF. However with regards to the RWR – they must be an anomaly within the IS – their wealth (GDP) must be above even that of many of the Great Houses for a long period of time. They also must have decided on a course of action 200 years prior to the Kerensky-Amaris conflict in which they established many hidden worlds (and the populations there on) that also provided a level of technology even greater than that of the SL and their Royal Units. Thus by the time of the conflict the RWR has a military that is either slightly smaller / equal to / slightly larger than that of the SLDF. In my opinion, this is the only way to explain the canon civil war. However, what this also brings with it is the massive infrastructure of the RWR – and was it completely destroyed during the SLDF invasion? Then there is the issue when the SLDF exited the area and the Lyrans invaded wouldn’t they have created many units to hunt down and find these facilities? And at the same time wouldn’t the DCMS be conducting the same reconnaissance within the former RWR? Thus during the First Succession war a massive war was conducted within this region of space – using atomics – so that neither side was able to gain the upper hand with former RWR hidden military industrial facilities – and at the same time it would go al long way to explain the following Research into the former RWR – of the 252 known RWR worlds 145 of these (58%) became abandoned / dead etc. shortly there-after. Thus these 145 worlds were so heavily fought over they are now wastelands ….. So all good …. History explained ….. Plus this would allow for a new unit / mercenary contract – Archeology within the former RWR worlds - in an effort to find hidden manufacturing facilities - Research and development sites etc Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem 07/04/20 05:28 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: I said Amaris did NOT have to leave Terra to cause diversions to the advancing SLDF. Just having a few troopers make some noise would pull of units to hunt them down. Sorry but I disagree, from time immemorial “he who holds the capitol, holds the realm” - a point that was quickly pointed out to Pompeius Magnus when he fled from Rome when Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon – and a point that would have been drilled into Kerensky when he was studying history, politics and tactics …. Thus if troops are sent to cause diversions they must strike of the highest of priority targets (and as such will be protected in a manner befitting their importance); Otherwise they are but a mere nuisance ….. Though with a force of 5,800 Warships versus 270 there is very little the 270 can strike at that would cause a mass diversion and even then the SLDF could still send a small force of 500 – 1,000 Warships to hunt down this raider fleet with the remainder still proceeding onto Terra to take back the Capitol world. There is really nothing that Amaris can do given the limited size of available forces …. In reality there are only a limited number of options …… 1. Hold his ground on Terra and fight against the majority of the SLDF; (Quickest way of loosing) 2. Initiate a hit and run strategy and try attrition warfare - ie. a Vietnam strategy; (Where it will take time for the SLDF to run him to ground – and once he leaves Terra, Amaris will be considered a terrorist not the First Lord – it will also cause him massive logistical issues in finding resupply / maintenance etc for his fleet and ground forces) 3. Run back to the RWR and dig in; Thus a more stand up war but again if the majority of the SLDF is assigned to the war in the Rim Worlds it is again just a matter of time as to when his military will collapse.; 4. Probably what he should have done prior to the Coup (over a very long period of time) …. Established a political alliance with as many of the Great Houses as possible …. From there establish a secret “society” within high schools throughout the Great Houses Worlds with the aim of finding individuals who can infiltrate / would be accepted into the SLDF (officers and enlisted personnel) who’s numbers can increase over time via the tithe system – so that when the balloon goes up a large percentage of all the regular forces defects back to their Home Great House – thus leaving the Star League (TH and Cameron) Forces with their Royal Forces and as small amount as possible Regular forces who’s belief in the Star League cannot be wavered. Thus what you end up with is a true civil war – Kerensky Vs. The Periphery and all the Great Houses – a war that is Inner Sphere Wide …… Problem is with the destruction of the Star League and the TH, they may be peace for a time but sooner of later every one will begin fighting everyone else ….. But isn’t this what the game designers wanted in the first place? Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem 07/04/20 05:29 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The longer you cause the enemy to fail in their victory, the more likely their own forces are to become angry and bitter. This in turn causes moral issues as well as fatigue. They stop working as a team and become the zombies you want. This only works if you have a sizeable force to keep up the pressure on a majority of the bases / supply ships / warships etc – in this case with only 270 Warships and 144 Regiments this will not work – the force is just too small to become an effective resistance force. Sooner of later this force will be run to ground and destroyed ….. Quote: A single unit that starts destroying cities on other worlds, causes more damage to people believing the SLDF can protect them. Backfire …. Amaris’ forces will be viewed as terrorists not liberators …… Quote: The personal hatred of Kerensky does not negate the fact the SL died before Kerensky left. Disagree ….. Why did Blake beg him to stay if everyone hated him? Quote: I don't know why you stop short of going to the base of all these issues. Might be just wanting to destroy certain people, while raising those that actually did the deed. Battlefield Ethics ….. plus it is better to keep the damage to the people and their industry to a minimum – as first, you may need them as allies in the future and second, humiliating a nation will lead to an unjust peace followed by an unjust war – ie. WW1 – humiliating Germany via the Treaty of Versailles followed with a Crash to the Economy produced a ultra nationalist movement within Germany – and over time WW2. And in all reality this is what could have happened ….. if the Star League was still around ….. Quote: Apples and oranges with Adam verse the SLDF. Adam can never be considered a true person regarding the succession …. As far as the law is concerned he is just a person they picked off the street (consider the profound distance his family is to that of the true line) to take the job … so yes the symbolism between the two is very apt. Allowing Adam to take the throne is a COUP by the TPTB over the Lyran People! Legally he can never ever be considered for the position – he can assume the position of protector of the realm and a member of the Triad for Peter’s son (the rightful Heir of the Lyran state) Hanse Steiner-Davion – though because he was mentally handicapped due to his birth the position would shift once more - you would go back through the family tree to Katrina Steiner’s sister Nondi Steiner and then to her eldest child Lisa Steiner (and if deceased at this point in time) to her eldest child Sabine Steiner. This is true line of succession! Adam can never be considered for the position of Archon! Quote: The SL did NOT have a rightful ruler to choose anything. You can go back infinitum until you find some-one who is alive and within a sub branch of the family. Thus you have your ruler! Quote: That shows you aren't concerned about the logic holes as much as ripping on canon. The line of succession concerns the law of the realm – and as such has nothing to do with ripping on cannon – consider the Family tree it demonstrates that the position of Archon is transferred to the next immediate family member from Seth Marsden to that of Melissa Steiner – Victor, Katherine, Peter – it is only with Peter do we see an absolute fabrication of the Archon succession… https://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Steiner Quote: How many army units were hurt in all of the war? It doesn't really say. And yet I worked it out ….. Force Depletion Report - SLDF …………………..Prior to conflict……………..Post Conflict ………………..% Damage Navy……………..5,800 Warships…………….Max. 503 Warships…………91.3% destroyed Army…………….4,455 Regiments……………Max. 215 Regiments ………95.2% destroyed (and this was completed by the periphery war within the Taurian Concordat, The periphery war within the Rim Worlds Republic and the Invasion of the Terran Hegemony …..) Time to get real as to the complete fabrication of this, either Amaris’ and his staff are the greatest generals that was ever created, or the Kerensky and his staff are the most incompetent or both for this to be considered believable. Quote: And with the idea that one corp can deal with the entire TC shows a lack of understanding the need to secure and hold worlds taken. Taurian Concordat - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Taurian_Concordat As a protectorate the total number of inhabited systems are 13 The 19th Army TO&E – 2765 https://www.sarna.net/wiki/19th_Army_(Star_League) BattleMech Regiments (unknown Type.) ………69 Heavy to Assault Regiments ……………………..2 Medium to Heavy Regiments …………………….4 Light Regiments ……………………………………2…….Total ……………77 Regiments Heavy to Assault Mechs + Vehicles Regiments .13 Medium to Heavy Mechs + Vehicle Regiments ...4 Light to Medium Mechs + Vehicle Regiments….3 ……..Total…………..20 Regiments Armored Regiment (unknown Type) ……………60 Wheeled Armor Regiment ………………………..1 …….Total …………..61 Regiments Artillery Company ………………………………….1 Jump Infantry Regiments ………………………...30 Mechanized Infantry Regiments …………………48 Non-Mechanized Infantry regiments …………….24 Royal French Demi Brigade ………………………3 (approx.) French Infantry Regiment ..………………………..1 Grunt Infantry Regiment …………………………...1 …… Total…………… 107 Regiments Aerospace Wings …………………………………..3 Warships ……………………………………………Unknown <however considering the SLDF has 5,800 warships and 20 Armies at 1/20 this could be 290 warships - at even 100 warships the TC will be in trouble!.> The Taurian Defense Force – 2765 https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Taurian_Defense_Force BattleMech Regiments …………………………115 Conventional Regiments………………………..78 Warships ………………………………………….31 Please Note:- House / Periphery Army BattleMech Units as at 2765 RWR ………………….144 Regiments in the TH – considered to be half of their total forces TCM……………………115 Regiments DCMS………………….115 Regiments AFFS…………..……….110 Regiments. FWLM…………………95 Regiments CCAF………….……….92 Regiments LCAF…………………. 90 Regiments I find it interesting that Periphery Realms were able to create more regiments than that of the Great Houses ……and it is also of interest that the size of the Great Houses militaries have not changed very much from that of 2765 to 3050 (as per the 20 year Update!). Yes they did align with Amaris ….. However this was only to act as a diversion for the SLDF …… putting up a long term battle would be all but impossible ………………. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/04/20 01:31 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply You do realize that the statement of holding the capital, holds the realm, is the concept of why planets tend to stop resisting an enemy when they fall? So that is the only city an enemy like the clans can hold them without needing thousands of troops stationed there? Protected? Who is left to protect target the RWR forces would strike? And yet again the inaccurate fact of how many ships were available to the SLDF at this time taints the entire analysis. Nice to see other options being explored, but #3 is not possible. The RWR was destroyed before Kerensky went to Terra. There is little, if anything left there. He could try to seek refuge in the other realms or just hide in the devastated planets of the RWR, but on the verge of impossible to rebuild a force there. Units being involved in a war start getting irritated the longer they are on alert. It does not even have to be in the war zone, but having to stand at attention the entire time on duty when in a 'safe' area, wears on them. Officers have to discipline them, or lose the entire unit to those types of problems. With the exception of travel time, a lot of the units were part of the periphery invasion. So for a few years, they have been in an area that hit and runs as well as ambushes behind the lines was more likely then not. One mistake with Amaris being seen as a terrorist, rather then a liberator. He already was seen as a terrorist or dictator. And when fighting to keep the first lord title thru fear, you are not worried about public opinion. Until the SLDF gets to your area, the RWR has the gun to your head. The statement of personal hatred was not from those in the SL. It is the writer that seems to want to destroy the character, which seems like a personal vendetta. Blake begged him to stay, as Kerensky was the main person people knew and would back. Blake was probably worried that the houses would ignore his position and try to sack Terra as well. What does the response to you stop short of going to the base of all issues have to do with the question? You blame the gun manufacturer for someone using it in a crime. You seem to want to ignore the fact the person that used it is at fault. This has been the case not only in the SLDF fall thread, but all of them that you are trying to promote the individual that caused the entire mess, while trying to destroy those that were part of it, without causing it. So Adam was not of the Steiner blood line? He was just someone that had the last name? I don't disagree that there were others closer in line for the job, but how many of them were able to lead the LC against the WOB? And if I recall, Adam gave that title back when WOB was done. So maybe they could have said regent, but with the archon still living, but not able to get off world, the power was diluted. Try the numbers again, only using the Periphery war to determine how many forces were available to attack Amaris on Terra. The question is HOW many units were really available to Kerensky to attack Amaris on Terra? They would have lost units in the periphery war, as well as those in the TH when Amaris took the throne. They would also have to leave units to guard bases in the rest of the galaxy. So the full number they had before all the wars started can NOT be the number they had to hit Amaris with. To use the pre war numbers as the amount used to hit the TH to remove Amaris is just one example of a logic hole opened by not keeping track of the timeline and data.
Cray 07/04/20 06:31 PM 71.47.193.139	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: In my opinion, this is the only way to explain the canon civil war. This analysis leaves out a lot of details found in Jihad Hotspots: Terra, which has a chapter examining Terra's history in detail. It adds new details to the Star League Civil War. The simple view of things from the 31st Century is that this was a battle of good (Kerensky) vs evil (Amaris). As soon as Amaris announced his coup, Kerensky leapt into action and, of course, the question is why wasn't Amaris squashed immediately? The reality is that this was a civil war. The Terran Hegemony voted for Amaris. They had almost 20 years of incompetent rule by Richard Cameron. Amaris was virtually a Hegemony citizen, from the outlying Periphery realm where most Hegemony citizens settled. It was like Canada to the US, or Austria to Germany. While ComStar and Succession Wars-era sources make Amaris look like a sleazy, bumbling, mustache-twirling villain, he was perceived differently at the time. He was the intelligent, attractive option compared to Richard Cameron. Sure, there was a coup to move military elements out of the way, but he then gave the Hegemony a chance to vote. Since all of the Hegemony nobles and their house guards had lined up with Amaris, there wasn't even much vote rigging or intimidation. The SLDF, stuck in the depths of the Periphery, had just lost all of its factories, major depots, and logistics core. The Star League had concentrated most of its military industry in the Hegemony. Further, the SLDF was faced with most of the Hegemony's leadership and citizenry telling it, "Why have you abandoned us? Why aren't you listening to us?" This is why the other Houses sat on their hands during the Civil War - they were deeply intermarried and economically intertwined with the Hegemony, which was saying, "Don't listen to the SLDF and Kerensky! Back your new emperor!" Had the SLDF just suddenly jumped on the Hegemony, it would've looked like the greatest mutiny in history. By drawing out the response, Amaris had time to make himself look like a fool and villain. Quote: However, what this also brings with it is the massive infrastructure of the RWR – and was it completely destroyed during the SLDF invasion? The answer to that well detailed in the two Liberation of Terra books. Short version: no. The Republic had light defenders who only put up a little fight. The SLDF badly, badly needed all the industry it could salvage from the Republic because it had lost everything it was built around in the Hegemony. As noted in JHS:Terra, the Hegemony ruled the Star League carefully. It kept all the vital military factories in the Hegemony, it kept the major fleet bases there, and it kept the money there. When the Hegemony sided with Amaris, the SLDF was rendered into decomposing, unmaintained military units in the field. It badly needed the Rim Worlds intact, and the Rim Worlds was no replacement for the Hegemony. On the other hand, during that years of stand off early in the Civil War, the Hegemony could and did rebuild a new army to fight the SLDF. (It's not like the Rim Worlds troops stuck around for long.) Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Requiem 07/04/20 07:59 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: You do realize that the statement of holding the capital, holds the realm, is the concept of why planets tend to stop resisting an enemy when they fall? So that is the only city an enemy like the clans can hold them without needing thousands of troops stationed there? You do realize that there is a caveat to this statement – Government in Exile – however this is not applicable in regards to Amaris as he was never considered to be the legitimate ruler in the first place. Thus if Kerensky takes the world he effectively takes the Government as well … and as such deposing Amaris’ claim to being First Lord (He may call himself First Lord but in the minds of the people he is just a jumped up terrorist / murderer from the RWR). However, with regards to Clans they may take the Capitol World but as long as the legitimate Government still exists the capitol in effects moves with them …. So they may have the physical world but the Government and the ruler still continue to exist. It is based upon the people’s perception of events ….. Quote: And yet again the inaccurate fact of how many ships were available to the SLDF at this time taints the entire analysis. Then prove to me this is wrong …. Find a document that shows the true size of the SLDF fleet numbers! As this is the only document I have found to date, so as far as I am concerned this is Canon ….. Quote: #3 is not possible. The RWR was destroyed before Kerensky went to Terra Again this canon fact does not hold water – Modern day Battlefield Ethics comes to the fore once more …. If Kerensky sends the LA and DC 6 Army Groups (or a portion there of) against the RWL in an effort to destroy the entire realm in a fit of vengeance his position within history WILL immediately change from being a Great General to being a Genocidal Nutcase …. ie. he would be remembered in the same light as that of Jinjiro Kurita and the Kentares Massacre ….. as well as the controversial WW2 figure of Bomber Harris and Dresden As from …. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Arguments_against_justification Wing Commander H. R. Allen said, "The final phase of Bomber Command's operations was far and away the worst. Traditional British chivalry and the use of minimum force in war was to become a mockery and the outrages perpetrated by the bombers will be remembered a thousand years hence". He (Kerensky) can hunt down all of the Amaris’ belligerent military units as well as all of Amaris’ Government Cronies he wants but when he shifts the orders to the destruction of the RWR he has crossed the line becoming a War Criminal due to petty vengeance …. Also the SLDF military is of a size that he can attack two or more targets at the same time - 6 Armies against the RWL that still leaves 14 Armies to strike Amaris’ 270 Warships and 144 Regiments on Terra. Quote: He could try to seek refuge in the other realms….etc. Political Asylum or hiding is again a non issue ….. Kerensky and the entire SLDF is on the Warpath …. As long as the SLDF remains unified they have the forces necessary to destroy every Great House / Periphery state …. Remember the film “Zero Dark Thirty” …… this will pale in comparison as to what Kerensky would be implemented to find Amaris …. Amaris’ is now politically toxic ….. there is no political / military reason to help him …. also if he does hide he will have massive logistical issues – as the most basic question is how is he going to feed everyone? Also how is he going to maintain the morale for all of his forces if all he does is hide? Also, every Military Commander within the SLDF and many Commanders within the Great Houses will also be hunting him in perpetuity – ‘he’ who brings Amaris to justice will be remembered for all time …. plus Kerensky will put a bounty on him …. thus every bounty hunter will also be hunting him ….. Thus the entire Canon version of events evaporates given Amaris’ limited available forces …… Re-write please…… Quote: Units being involved in a war start getting irritated the longer they are on alert. True …. However given the time taken to reach a planet from the Jump point or even from a pirate point …. as well as the Jump-detection systems every military unit / base would have as well as the small forces available to Amaris (given the size of the SLDF military) the idea that every SLDF base would be on alert 24 / 7 becomes a ridiculous idea. Also even in combat areas you are not always on alert ….. there are many good documentaries / films / series that demonstrate this point as to how soldiers act ….. Quote: He already was seen as a terrorist or dictator. And when fighting to keep the first lord title thru fear, you are not worried about public opinion. First if he was seen as a terrorist from the get go he never would have been allowed on the same planet as that of the current First Lord ….. so their ‘relationship’ ends ….. no coup …..etc. etc. Second …. Uncle Ho Chi Minh – both France and America had issues with him and yet he has a sustained view as being a great leader. <Side Note: At the end of WW2 Ho Chi Minh offered to become an official ally of America if they would assist in helping Vietnam become an independent country from France …. America said no. and history rolls on ….> Quote: Until the SLDF gets to your area, the RWR has the gun to your head. Terrorist, Bandit, Pirate …….. Quote: Blake begged him to stay, as Kerensky was the main person people knew and would back. Blake was probably worried that the houses would ignore his position and try to sack Terra as well. Yes, I agree Blake was worried …. Still shows that Kerensky is no way near the “Hero” his PR team portrays him to be …. Quote: you are trying to promote the individual that caused the entire mess, while trying to destroy those that were part of it, without causing it. Battlefield ethics and Battlefield law are legitimate military subjects …. They should be considered within the game ….. had a look lately as to some of the issues brought into the game lately from 3100 onwards? I am not impressed …… Quote: So Adam was not of the Steiner blood line? As for as the right of succession goes he is just someone they picked off the street to do the job ….. Quote: I don't disagree that there were others closer in line for the job Well over a couple of hundred people ….. Quote: how many of them were able to lead the LC against the WOB? Irrelevant point ….. he can become the ‘Protector of the Realm” ….. and many rulers have Generals who assist with military matters ….. Though In this case though both Lisa and her daughter Sabine were both within the Lyran Military ….. so again the point Adam can become Archon is illegal based upon Lyran Law. Quote: And if I recall, Adam gave that title back when WOB was done. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Adam_Steiner Sorry no he didn’t - his term as Illegal Archon was from 3074 – 3121 – when it was transferred to Adam’s son Andrew until 3127, when it was transferred to Adam’s daughter Melissa Quote: The question is HOW many units were really available to Kerensky to attack Amaris on Terra? We are supposed to believe the remaining elements of the First army within the TH have been destroyed as well as 30 Regiments of the 19th Army have been destroyed by the TC – every other unit throughout the IS can be pulled in destroy Amaris …. Still far too many for Amaris to defend against. Quote: They would also have to leave units to guard bases in the rest of the galaxy. You would think so, however the above after action depletion numbers indicating 91.3% of all warships and 95.2% of all SLDF military units were destroyed in the conflict says otherwise – as well as the fact that all the bases that were closed and hidden (many had to be unearthed as their entry points were closed with demolition charges – as the base itself was underground – or hidden in space such as Camelot Command) also supports the fact that every unit was called in to fight the war …. So no logic holes at all … just fact based upon all available information provided …. I would also like to ask – at the end of the Kerensky – Amaris Conflict why didn’t his fleet take up their hidden bases once more – and in so doing return the sword of Damocles over the head of every Great House? Militarily and well as politically this is next step to keeping the peace and telling in no uncertain terms that he will not put up with any of House Lord’s shenanigans with regards to the issue of who the next First Lord would be , again another issue which defies any logic within the game? Re-write please as the story has too many plot holes …… Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem 07/04/20 09:50 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Cray, Quote: This analysis leaves out a lot of details found in Jihad Hotspots: Terra, which has a chapter examining Terra's history in detail. It adds new details to the Star League Civil War. And as stated previously I do not have this book and I have not found any information within Sarna as to this new information ….. Thus given the limited information to hand ….. I can only go on the information to hand …. However, let me critique the new information as supplied Austria to Germany I understand however as Canada is part of the Commonwealth so this does not hold …. However this is where everything comes un-glued …. This is a Coup backed up by foreign forces (Austria to Germany during the Anschluss …. So yes to the above note) …. However, Kerensky does NOT answer to anyone other than the Legitimate First Lord and The Council of House Lords and in the absence of the First Lord Kerensky can assume the position of Regent once more or protector of the realm? (Charles de Gaulle WW2), thus eliminating any enthusiastic action by any of the House Lords. First, Logistics capabilities of a space faring (like the sailing ships of old must be tapped into the local economy as well as retaining vast military supplies in the event of any future protracted war – this is just logical logistics when it comes to the military (ie. having a just in time logistics system is beyond ludicrous). Second, having a vote to determine the ruler of the Terran Hegemony makes Amaris the Prime Minister / President it does in no way make him Emperor / First Lord as these are based upon the Rules of Succession. Stefan proclaimed himself FIRST LORD OF THE AMARIS EMPIRE – so the idea the vote has any sway in the matter becomes irrelevant. Third, Remember Amaris changed the designation from Star League to Amaris Empire – this is all the evidence I need to allow Kerensky to declare war on Amaris …. and his so called Amaris Empire. Two different nationalities are now at war! Fourth, Do not forget the Throne Room Massacre of the 80 people – under any legal definition he is now to be impeached as he is not above the law. How can he explain the complete absence of the Royal Family as well as the fighting with the Black Watch – to which they used a tactical nuclear device. I find it difficult for him to hide the fact that he just used a nuke on the personal body guard of the First Lord! Fifth, several members of the Regiment escaped forming the Ghosts of the Black Watch Guerrilla movement. As long as any SLDF unit was under attack Kerensky is well within his rights to counter attack to save them. Sixth, when a complete TO&E of the 20 Armies of the SLDF is completed (as above) the idea that Kerensky would just sit outside is complete lunacy of the highest order … Quote: Had the SLDF just suddenly jumped on the Hegemony, it would've looked like the greatest mutiny in history. Cray, you do realize this statement does not make any sense whatsoever? Kerensky is Star League Defense Force; Stefan Amaris is Amaris Empire. Can you please explain how you can mutiny against an Empire that you have never sworn an oath to? Lets put this in another way during WW2 if a country was invaded and captured by Germany did that countries’ complete military just switch sides to Germany or did those who object fight on, despite their limited logistics and how many moved to England to join the fight against Germany? Same here – The SLDF forms a government in exile under the supreme commander / Regent / Protector of the Realm Gen. A. Kerensky – they then declare war and invade – considering that even with battlefield damage inflicted on the 1st Army within the TH and the 19th Army (and others) within the TC the SLDF still maintains a fighting force of over 4,000 Regiments plus over 5,000 warships to Amaris’ 144 Regiments and 270 Warships. Did Churchill drag it out for as long as possible? Sorry to say but the idea that “By drawing out the response, Amaris had time to make himself look like a fool and villain.” Is not a valid reason I will accept – Timing has always been key to winning a battle – Consider the Battle of Anzio Major Gen. John P. Lucas he could have taken Rome the City was open and yet he just sat on the beach and allowed the Germans to create a massive defensive perimeter. After a month he was replaced by Maj. Gen. Lucian Truscott - then when you consider the costs of the Breakout and the costs to take Rome demonstrates that some people do not know what they are doing. If Kerensky sat outside for all this time allowing the RR to build a force comparable to the SLDF shows a level of ineptitude never seen before or since …. Keresnky has the means and the military / political right to strike at Terra as his primary target – thus killing the head of the shark. Quote: The SLDF badly, badly needed all the industry it could salvage from the Republic because it had lost everything it was built around in the Hegemony. Question: where were all of the 19 Armies Garrisoned thoughout the IS? Also how do you sevice / maintain your vehicles / Mechs / Fighters etc without a local repair facilities - thus requireing massive wharehouses, logistics personnel etc.? Then there are other facilities such as ..... Camelot Command + all others scattered throughout the IS. Defiance Industries of Hesperus II - largest in the IS - Jointly made with the SL Norse-Storm on Loxley – star League era “Mech Factory? Snord’s Irregulars - how many other hidden Star League bases did they find like the one under their museum? Then there is the issue of logistics maintained by all 4000 Regiments – if desired couldn’t you transfer a percentage of these to an attack group of 500 Regiments – thus having enough logistics for a mini war with Amaris’ 144 Regiments? Then there is the point of 4,000 Regiments Vs. 144 Regiments …. Call me skeptical but if Kerensky needed worlds for his logistical requirements I doubt 144 Amaris regiments would have posed an issue if he decided toliberate worlds from the Amaris Empire back into the Star League. Quote: When the Hegemony sided with Amaris, the SLDF was rendered into decomposing, unmaintained military units in the field. It badly needed the Rim Worlds intact, and the Rim Worlds was no replacement for the Hegemony. Sorry but can I laugh now? This statement only holds when there is going to be a protracted war over many years – considering the difference in scope between the two military forces Amaris would be lucky to survive one month of all out war. Thus the complete requirements of the SLDF are returned to them by the end of this one month of war …. The only way you can have a protracted war id if Amaris’ forces are slightly larger than that of the SLDF! Quote: On the other hand, during that years of standoff early in the Civil War, the Hegemony could and did rebuild a new army to fight the SLDF. Of which proves the point that Gen. Kerensky is perhaps the most incompetent of all military commanders to be ever given command of a military unit ….. perhaps Kerensky is the reincarnation of Custer? Didn’t he learn anything as to why the Allies bombed into oblivion all the military industrial complexes of the German and Japanese nations? Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight. Edited by Requiem (07/04/20 09:56 PM)
ghostrider 07/05/20 04:24 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Space travel is worse then keeping planetside for a war. You are stuck in a smaller area, with people that will get on your nerves after a while, that that is if you like them. If not, it becomes worse faster. This is not including runs faster then 1g. How does Blake wanting Kerensky to stay show Kerensky is no hero? A lot of people, including those that went with him, wanted him to stay. Actually, the SLDF had a lot of bases around the IS. The fact that they are still finding them, and have been for some time points to this. Which brings up another point. How many units were left to guard them before the exodus? Better re read the story of Camelot Command. There was a crew at the station and they died there AFTER Kerensky left. Now why do you think they just abandoned their hidden assets? Even during the wars, they would not do so. Using them as they did in peace time makes a lot of sense. For some, it would make even more sense. The retcon of the mobile repair base basically removed the need for their repair bases like Camelot. The houses were NOT trained to build and service the warships, and probably the dropships of the SLDF. That may well go for the units as well, since they were supposed to have tech the houses didn't. How did that go? The winner of a coup is the new lord? I didn't know about the voting, which turned the TH into a democracy setting instead of the feudal/dictator setting under Richard. The people of the TH had the right to change leaders. I have issues with it, but oh well. It doesn't stop from playing the game, especially looking for League caches. Funny thing. The name of the SL changed to Amaris Empire. Does that mean that the oath to protect the TH changes? Kerensky would have to deal with the new rulers, just like the old ones. The change of government format is what happened. The military forces of the SLDF would become the forces of the AE if they followed procedures. I don't agree with it, but it does follow the revolt scenario you love so much. And the name isn't the end all. Richard could well have been planning to call it Richards Playpen for all I know. It is still the SL with a new name. Repairing units requires parts. Parts that should not be produced locally, as they are illegal tech for the locals to have. Worse, where do you get new units to replace those lost? Again. The locals should not be able to build Highlanders with the advance tech the TH uses. Which goes to the question. If the SLDF refitted the RWR factories, shouldn't they have been set up for the more advanced tech? A find there should be in better shape then elsewhere. How long did Amaris have Richard's ear? Simply asking him to open up some assistance to begin with, to help his people resist the 'evil' in his realm. That soon becomes him being able to order things as Richard would probably be uninterested in what is going on with the manufacturing plants. This is true if Richard gave Amaris the access that was suggested. He could well have ordered even warships be made/transferred to people sympathetic to Amaris. Without the need to pay for things, he forces may well have had all the tech they could fit into the units when Kerensky hit. Only the royal guards had a lot of the tech in their units. The others were not so packed.
Requiem 07/05/20 10:29 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: the SLDF had a lot of bases around the IS……How many units were left to guard them before the exodus? Considering the size of the remaining forces following the end of the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War, best guess, skeleton crew ….. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Camelot_Command “It was abandoned by the Star League Defense Force on the eve of the Exodus in the late 28th century and only rediscovered centuries later.” Sorry but the Sarna wiki does not include any information as to crew that were marooned on the base …. do you remember where this information is located? Quote: The retcon of the mobile repair base basically removed the need for their repair bases like Camelot. Except they were also used for large scale repair, refitting, resupply (that a repair ship was unable to complete due to its complexity) and to assist spy missions into the RWR. Quote: The name of the SL changed to Amaris Empire. Does that mean that the oath to protect the TH changes? The Oath taken is usually very specific In nature, once Amaris declared the end of the Star League and the beginning of the Amaris Empire he has in effect declared war on the SLDF – as such Kerensky is within his remit to lay siege to and invade Terra, with the aim of removing Amaris and restoring the Star League. Quote: Kerensky would have to deal with the new rulers Not really, he just need to invade – capture or kill – and then for those captured, stand trial for treason and for those found guilty, executed. The change in government is from a legal to an illegal government – ie. from the point of view of the French Government in Exile in London to that of the Vichy and their German Allies. Quote: The military forces of the SLDF would become the forces of the AE if they followed procedures. Under no circumstances would Kerensky hand over the SLDF to the Amaris Empire – they are an illegal government …. war to the death. Quote: It is still the SL with a new name. No it is not the same! Are we to assume every country conquered by the Axis powers should be considered part of their conquers country and as such their nationality instantaneously changes from that of their original country to that of whichever axis power conquered them? They are a conquered people – and as such they should be liberated. Quote: Repairing units requires parts. Parts that should not be produced locally, The Fleet contains 5,800 ships – unknown many of Camelot Command shipyards – and the expected duration of war is of no more than 12-18 months – there should be supplies to keep the fleet going, if not use one ship to repair the more valuable - ie. form time Kerensky learns of the Coup, and the travel time each fleet takes from their respective patrol locations to that of their primary target – Terra, Amaris and his Government / Military Commanders – thereafter mop up operations with regards to any of the remaining forces …. And whilst this occurring a second fleet is dispatched to the RWR to remove any co-conspirators of Amaris and then install a new government. Quote: RWR access to SL Tech. Richard gave Amaris access to virtually every defense platform etc However the true issue is time – Kerensky must coordinate the closest fleets to a rendezvous point then dispatch assault force to Terra as quickly as possible, the point being he must not allow Amaris and his forces to become entrenched – he must eliminate the threat asap less he will use the Star League Facilities and Technology against Kerensky’s SLDF. Still does not change the fact that Kerensky can assemble a massive invasion fleet and army forces many times that of Amaris’ – it is just a matter of when Amaris falls not if he falls. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/05/20 12:48 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Not abandoned, but volunteers. I want to say it was in the Rhonda's Irregulars pack when they found the station. The oath is specific when you want to removed someone, but isn't when the now nationless decided to leave the IS? The only thing that is different besides the name is bringing to justice the people that conspired to kill the ruling family. The fact that the TH voted to retain Amaris, which would also extend to the nations name, says they were supportive of the change. I don't agree with this, but it does make sense of what happened. Given the new information, the SL were not that much of conquered people. Not saying it was noble of Amaris, but he did remove the Cameron line. Which for years, had been upsetting the civilians of the SL. The pause before the invasion could well have been to see if Amaris and his people were going to start sacking the TH, as well as killing the people. How many supplies were sent to the repair facilities outside the TH? How many were diverted before the Amaris strike? Again, you are using the numbers and such before the periphery war, to say that is what was available to attack Amaris. How many ships were damaged that didn't have parts in any facility? How many weapons and other supplies for the people were not there anymore? They were still involved in the periphery fight when Amaris killed Richard. STILL IN THE WAR. No matter what the SLDF was doing, they needed time to even start making the parts. Again. The higher tech of the SLDF was not made outside of the TH. To have done so, would violate the law saying you can not hand such tech outside of the TH. Time is correct on what Kerensky would be facing, but dispatching ships to assault the TH without having numbers and back up would be foolish. Knowing what awaited them, small ship contingents would be wiped out without doing much damage. Not sure how much of the information sent out was modified by Amaris, but it is very possible he was able to slow, counter or even stop some of it just before he killed Richard. So upgrading his forces probably started soon after he personally met with Richard. The concept of Katherine pushing her place as the next ruler concept comes to mind. Richard could order things, as he would be the next ruler, when he came of age. So if he ordered say a regiment of Amaris's units refitted or changed out with new tech, it would be obeyed. And as suggested before, this may well have not gotten the Kerensky in the periphery. Getting the forces to Terra might be another reason on why it took so long. Some units were out of contact it remote areas in the Periphery. I would assume more then a few were flanking from outside of the borders as well. Radio silence would be used.
Requiem 07/05/20 07:18 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The fact that the TH voted to retain Amaris, which would also extend to the nations name, says they were supportive of the change. I don't agree with this, but it does make sense of what happened. RWR military forces invaded the TH and the SL - their secret alliance was nullified not only by the fact that they insinuated twice as many forces into the TH as per the agreement. It was also nullified when Stefan himself murdered the legitimate ruler (and his entire family) – the issue of being voted into a position of power is not only irrelevant its results are also illegal, as at this stage as he has committed a coup to enable the vote to be conducted in the first place. Two Legal issues - Fruit of the poisoned tree doctrine - Stefan cannot benefit due to his lawbreaking! Second, the doctrine of undue influence – Stefan (who has just murdered the Cameron’s, the Cameron’s Security force (Black Watch with a nuclear device) and has placed his military into security positions throughout the TH is now in a position of power in which they can unduly influence (actual via physical coercion or presumed in using a nuclear device to demonstrate to the people his resolve – the people fear Stefan due to his current actions) the voters situation is now of the weaker party being influenced into an agreement in that if they were offered the choice would not have entered into. That is the vote itself is a sham as far as the SLDF and Aleksandr are concerned. Then there is the issue of Changing the States Name – a violation that directly opposes the SL – and as such must be defeated with all necessary force. From Aleksandr and the SLDF’s legal point of view (in addition to their oath to protect the SL) they are fully within their remit to protect the SL by invading the TH and removing Stefan and his RWR forces. Quote: Given the new information, the SL were not that much of conquered people. Completely disagree …. As per above, the level of undue influence upon the people through the murder of the entire Cameron line as well as utilizing a nuclear device that would have been communicated through Media Organizations (News etc.) produces a psychological response by the people as well as personal media devices as well as any RWR military parades through the streets – all of these would communicate to the people that they have been conquered and must act accordingly. Quote: How many supplies were sent to the repair facilities outside the TH? Depends upon manufacturing and logistics chain specifics etc. Consider searching for the Department of Defense Appropriations for 1959, supply etc. Page 321 – entitled Multiple layers of stock retention levels, within the document it discusses….. 1. Peacetime operating stocks; 2. Mobilization reserves; and 3. Long Reserves - based upon economic reserves – more cost effective to purchase in bulk as well as Contingency reserves (“which may be valuable in case of emergency or other possible need. So there is no hard and fast rule on this topic – however I would like to point out that if the majority of supplies are being transported from the TH and is being distributed to every SLDF military base throughout the IS their logistical chains are now not only vast but are also time consuming (ie. they have adopted a hub and spoke approach to a logistics chain) – thus the amount of supplies every base must maintain would be staggering (a couple of years worth minimum!) if this logistical chain strategy has been adopted by the SL for the SLDF as the duration periods between resupply runs (given the information provided) would be incredibly time consuming. I would like to add in the point that this supply chain approach is extremely counter-productive form a strategic military point of view. It would have been more efficient for the SLDF to adopt the same policy as the ComStar / WOB – the hidden worlds doctrine in that the SLDF maintains a number of hidden worlds throughout the Inner Sphere that have been established with the express purpose of re-supplying the SLDF with everything they require for their geographical location – thus cutting down the resupply time; ensuring the local SLDF is more self sufficient and mobile; reducing overall costs due to the massive supply fleet that would be required for a TH hub and spoke approach to logistics. And in all reality this is where the WoB hidden worlds could have originated from in the first place – if you believe in the Exodus, that is – ComStar could have discerned their locations over time and have made them operational once more …… thus making the hidden worlds a little more plausible when you explain their SLDF origin story. As for the quantity that was diverted to diverted to the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War – let me be flippant in my answer, How long is a piece of string? Depends upon original stock reserves – estimated time to next stock update – quantity of stock to received – consumption levels off combat and within combat …. Etc. So the answer can never be answered …. Each GM will need to make a best guess based upon their own interpretation of the information provided. Quote: They were still involved in the periphery fight when Amaris killed Richard. STILL IN THE WAR. This comes down the size of the fleet assigned to the war. At this time period the TC has only 13 worlds, 115 Mech Regiments and 31 Warships – if the full 1/20th of the SLDF fleet was assigned to the war than this little rebellion of theirs would have lasted days / weeks at the most. Quote: No matter what the SLDF was doing, they needed time to even start making the parts. Again. The higher tech of the SLDF was not made outside of the TH. To have done so, would violate the law saying you can not hand such tech outside of the TH. Again the hidden world doctrine would be needed to be considered – however it is my opinion that SLDF Armies within Steiner / Kurita space could deal with the RWR. The remaining SLDF Units within Davion, Liao and Marik space could have been sent to deal with Amaris on Terra first then double back and mop up any RWR forces still remaining on any TH worlds. (The disparity in the quantity of SLDF forces begins to show given the numbers supplied.) Quote: Time is correct on what Kerensky would be facing, but dispatching ships to assault the TH without having numbers and back up would be foolish. RWR Naval Forces:- The 280 warships that they brought with them; The SL Space defense system they ‘acquired’ from the SLDF; and Additional ships manufactured / appropriated during their time within the TH. SLDF Naval Forces:- 9/20ths of the entire SLDF fleet – 2,610 warships (or there about) So in reality the RWR forces should not last very long unless they have access to wave motion guns …. Quote: it is very possible he was able to slow, counter or even stop some of it just before he killed Richard All orders need to go through the Chain of Command ….. so in reality highly doubtful. Quote: So upgrading his forces probably started soon after he personally met with Richard. No …. Upgrading would start when he murdered Richard and took command of the TH – however any remaining SLDF upon any world that maintains military industrial complexes will have to be dealt with first prior to obtaining any updated equipment from them. So in reality it comes down to how long it will take all the fleets to come together and attack in one massive force. My bet ….. not that very long 6-7 moths tops for those fleets stationed within each house to coordinate a joint strike force – objective: Terra …… So it comes down to how efficient are the RWR military techs in utilizing SLDF refit packages to their vehicles / Mechs / Fighters etc …. Quote: Richard could order things, as he would be the next ruler, when he came of age. So if he ordered say a regiment of Amaris's units refitted or changed out with new tech, it would be obeyed. No, Richard must be seen to be obeying the law. He cannot be seen to be ordering this as the Department of Administration as well as the Attorney General should have the ability to stop such a move ….. Richard is NOT all powerful, even he must obey the law. If he did it under the table - then the issue of reverse engineering comes to mind and as such the entire RWR forces within the TH and the RWR would have been updated prior to the Coup. Quote: Getting the forces to Terra might be another reason on why it took so long. Some units were out of contact it remote areas in the Periphery. I would assume more then a few were flanking from outside of the borders as well. Radio silence would be used. I am just utilizing those forces within the IS – 9 / 20 th of the entire SLDF – a hammer to crack an egg – still should not be a problem As for the 4 Periphery Armies – Strategic Reserve As for those in radio silence – this just means they cannot transmit – they can still receive – one flash override and that will quickly end. The Periphery conflict and the civil war should both be over within no more than 18 moths tops – the issue is what comes next with 80 main house branch of the family dead and who knows how many of the sub branch families – never discussed except in generalities. Thus the the Department of Administration as well as the Attorney General will have to undertake an immediate census to determine the extent of the damage / update births / deaths / Marriages registry ….. and will then have to take it from there as to the Line of Succession ….. You may have a short constitutional crisis but I really cannot see it lasting very long …… Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight. Edited by Requiem (07/05/20 07:23 PM)
ghostrider 07/06/20 02:40 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply How many countries have changed hand when the new regime kills the old one? The U.S could be accused of doing so. Most middle east countries have had rulership changes like this. Asian, Europian, African. This is not something new. As once said, legal is what those that win say it is. I don't support this idea, but it does solve some of the issues. Where in the SL charter does it say it is illegal for them to change the name? Companies do it all the time. The people didn't like getting rid of the Cameron line? You mean those that over taxed the people for things that the people didn't benefit from? Richard was the last straw for a lot of them. Why did the TH need to be the police force for the IS? The other houses were helping remove wealth from the common man, especially when they started the periphery war. The only ones that would have loved this is the weapons manufacturers, as they were making a killing in profits. Do I think this was a majority? Not really, but enough of them went along with it. Also read where it says Amaris DID NOT influence the vote. So you want a villain in Kerensky, then maybe his coup against the winning government is more realistic. I don't agree with this, but then I am not trying to destroy Kerensky to destroy the storyline. Making manufacturing plants around the IS with tech that is illegal for the house lords to have, is just asking for 'pirate' raids hitting them non stop. Hidden worlds only stay hidden when you control the coms networks, or don't consistently have supply caravans going to them. It is very possible they did have some stocks in hidden places, but were being watched, so did not risk exposing those facilities. It is also possible that with Amaris taking over the SL, the automated defense systems code words were changed, so they fired on 'renegade' SLDF forces. Do you understand that the TC and RWR were not the only periphery states involved in the war? It sure doesn't sound like it, as you continually leave out that fact. Without firing a shot, more then a few ships were out of commission as they were needed to patrol the areas conquered. Oh yeah. The master tactician doesn't understand that. Sheesh. Yeah. Being on the defensive, you would group every last unit into one group and hope you can take down the superior enemy. You would not scatter your units and do massive hit and runs, while forcing the enemy to split up, so your out numbered and out gunned units can start taking down the enemy as they foolishly send a single unit to look for you, and you pounce on it with more... Yeah. Smart tactics. Best to die all together and at once. You were so intent on Katherine being able to manipulate everything, yet no one else could possibly do that in the past? Amaris could very well have been given special clearance by Richard for doing this very thing. If Richard was the spoiled child, he would do things just to piss Kerensky off. A charismatic friend could well convince him that moving a few things, or denying them a few petty shipments would be a way to teach those in the SLDF that choose to ignore Richard a thing or two. Oh wait. That would remove Katherine from being the god of manipulation and demote her to following what others had done in the past. The chain of command. The first lord ordering the industries to produce parts and unit, and have them shipped to a location and leave it there could never happen? The automated process of ordering things could not be changed just a little so someone with access to Richard's personal password couldn't possibly order things and bury it in the mounds of paperwork the SL would have on any given day? Also, look at how things get ordered from manufacturers. Orders are placed. It can be placed by anyone with the authority to do so. Kerensky himself did not sign or even be part of every last parts order that was done. That is accounting. How they are distributed after they arrive on a military base DOES need a chain of command. And if you think otherwise, explain how secret research facilities as well as bases were able to get their supplies. Those need very few people to even know about it, otherwise they aren't secret. What? The ruler isn't the law as you have said in the past? They can't just order things like assassinations or punishment for those that are not breaking the law, but are resisting said leader? So wouldn't he be in the right to send in some military units to remove someone running a factory that produces parts for the SL when they say no? When did this change? I don't even think they could do this, but it was suggested that a ruler could remove everyone from a factory if they refused to obey that leader in a feudal system. Radio silence also includes not believing things that are sent. There have been more then a few times that someone sent a fake message and caused units to act when they weren't supposed to. This is part of why codes are used, and without those codes, they are not to believe things. Even with a code, you are in the periphery without many ways to confirm anything, why would you believe that Richard was killed, with no way to confirm this?
Requiem 07/06/20 10:19 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: How many countries have changed hand when the new regime kills the old one? First corporations law is not applicable, that said …. How many extra stars have been added to Old Glory recently? How many new electoral college votes and new senators etc applies to every country America has ‘acquired’ recently. I do believe Puerto Rico would have something to say on the matter considering it has been an unincorporated territory since 1898. This is the issue, Amaris did not just conquer the TH, he absorbed it into the ‘Amaris Empire’! Thus providing the SLDF with the right to defend the TH / SL against all aggressors, foreign or domestic …. Again this falls within the example of WW2 France Vichy Vs. Free France led by Charles de Gaulle. Quote: The people didn't like getting rid of the Cameron line? So any government official who’s popularity poll falls below a certain level is allowed to be executed with the full support of the people? Quote: Also read where it says Amaris DID NOT influence the vote. Undue influence …. So having a information news broadcast showing Stefan nuking the Black Watch followed by a Military Parade through the streets demonstrating his military might is not propaganda? This is the Godfather telling the TH people that he has an offer they cannot refuse ……. Quote: …. but then I am not trying to destroy Kerensky to destroy the storyline. Based upon mathematical and legal data supplied so far the canon storyline is already damaged ................. Quote: Making manufacturing plants around the IS with tech that is illegal for the house lords to have, is just asking for 'pirate' raids hitting them non stop. ….and yet Camelot Command (and all the others hidden throughout the IS), a large number of hidden SLDF bases as well as the Five Hidden Worlds were never discovered. Thus there is ample evidence to support the hypothesis that the Great Houses / Periphery states will be unable to discover the location of these ‘hidden re-supply worlds’. I would also like to say not every location can be watched all the time …. Plus the sheer size of the SLDF in comparison to House / Periphery Lords Militaries would ensure a minimum of adventurism on their part. Quote: It is also possible that with Amaris taking over the SL, the automated defense systems code words were changed, so they fired on 'renegade' SLDF forces. The Fried-or-Foe identification system would have been changed over on day 1 of the Coup. Quote: Do you understand that the TC and RWR were not the only periphery states involved in the war? Yes, still will not change the outcome as each SLDF Army assigned to each Periphery state has a naval force able to deal with them ….. You do realize that the distraction within the Alliance, Canopus and Taurian space should not be considered that great of a threat to any of the SLDF forces. They may have a close parity with that of the Ground Forces however the difference in Naval forces is still insurmountable… https://www.sarna.net/wiki/20th_Army_(Star_League) 17th Army – assigned to operations within the Magistracy of Canopus. 18th Army – assigned to operations within the Outworlds Alliance Territorial State. 19th Army – assigned operations within the Taurian Concordat Region. 20th Army – assigned to operation with the Rim Worlds Republic Territorial state – “he Twentieth Army remained near the Rim Worlds Republic and subcommands occasionally conducted reconnaissance-in-force operations into the Republic.” - <Note: the 20th were unable to find any evidence as to Stefan’s secret army – suggest multiple hidden worlds with a massive military industrial complexes are required to build this ….. also if the SLDF required these facilities to assault the TH (canon story) did they find them or were they forced to use only the visible complexes …. So where are they? And why didn’t the Lyrans attempt to find them / utilize them during the succession wars?> Amaris’ Secret Army …………….’Mech Regiments………Conventional Regiments……………..Warships RWR………………………………?................................................................? TH……………… 100…………………………44 (approx).………………….280 TC ………………110 (approx.).…………….70 (approx.)……………………16 OA…………………89………………………….17………………………………15 MoC……………… 103 (approx)……………..14 (approx)…………………….? https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Amaris_Civil_War https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Taurian_Defense_Force The resulting New Vandenberg Uprising, started by the secession of 18 worlds within the Taurian Taurian Concordat ….…………………..total forces BattleMech Regiments …………………………115 Conventional Regiments………………………..78 Warships ………………………………………….31 19th SLDF Army ….…………………..total forces (Initial Forces engaged in hostilities) BattleMech Regiment ……………………77 BattleMech + Vehicle Regiment…………20 Armored Regiment ……………………….61 Artillery Company …………………………1 Infantry……………………………………..107 Aerospace Wings ………………………….3 Warships……………………………………290 (approx – representing 1/20th of the SLDF total navy of 5,800 vessels) https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magistracy_of_Canopus the Magistracy joined the other Periphery Powers in the New Vandenberg uprising … Magistracy of Canopus …………………..total forces BattleMech Regiments ………………………..108 Conventional Regiments………………………..22 Warships …………………………………………22 (Nt. - Most of which are Amaris’ secret army) The true size of the Magistracy forces at this time was 1/20th the size of the SLDF Garrison Army within Canopus space. 17th SLDF Army ….…………………..total forces (Initial Forces engaged in hostilities) BattleMech Regiment …………………… 96 BattleMech + Vehicle Regiment………… 11 Armored Regiment ………………………. 66 Artillery Company ………………………… 0 Infantry…………………………………….. 112 Aerospace Wings …………………………. 6 Warships……………………………………290 (approx – representing 1/20th of the SLDF total navy of 5,800 vessels) https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Outworlds_Alliance When the Amaris Civil War started in early 2766, Allyce Avellar chose to remain neutral ….. Amaris Secret Forces within the Outworlds Alliance …..total forces BattleMech Regiments ………………………………………. 89 Conventional Regiments……………………………………... 17 Warships ………………………………………………………. 15 2765 forces – 100 Mech Regiments 72 Conventional Regiments and a Naval Fleet of 16 Vessels (15 of which are corvette class) of their own + (most of which are Amaris’ secret army) – however only the 89 Mech Regiments and 17 Conventional Regiments + the 15 corvettes belong to Amaris’ secret army and will be engaged by the SLDF units. . 18th SLDF Army ….…………………..total forces (Initial Forces engaged in hostilities) BattleMech Regiment …………………… 96 BattleMech + Vehicle Regiment………… 17 Armored Regiment ………………………. 64 Artillery Company ………………………… 1 Infantry…………………………………….. 109 Aerospace Wings …………………………. 4 Warships……………………………………290 (approx – representing 1/20th of the SLDF total navy of 5,800 vessels) Quote: Without firing a shot, more then a few ships were out of commission as they were needed to patrol the areas conquered. Oh yeah. The master tactician doesn't understand that. Sheesh. Refer above:- As for the 4 Periphery Armies – Strategic Reserve Following a one week naval war in each Periphery - ground forces will be required to eliminate all ground forces – why? – Stefan’s forces will retreat into populated areas thus making orbital bombardment all but impossible ie. will have to dig the rats out. Additional army forces can be assigned to these areas from their Closest Great House Army – however running them to ground will not take that long unless they begin a Guerrilla warfare strategy. However the number of warships required within these periphery states can be reduced to a minimum number - however by the time Naval forces from the periphery arrive within the TH the war will be over – so the number assigned to Terra assault groups from those Amies assigned to all the Great Houses will still be at a maximum amount. Outcome will still be the same – duration to victory will still be the same. Quote: you would group every last unit into one group and hope you can take down the superior enemy. Stefan has 280 ships and the SLDF is going to hit him with over 2,000 ships – Stefan’s movements at this stage are limited … The primary target will be wherever Stefan is …… what happens to the RWR military once Stefan id dead? Will they continue the war and be hunted down or will they return to the RWR or will they surrender? Scattering your forces may seem to be a sane response, but in the end all it does is weaken the forces defending Stefan personally. Considering his psychopathic / Hedonistic attitude do you really believe he would weaken the forces that are assigned to guarding his personal security? I find the answer as highly doubtful. Quote: being able to manipulate everything …. Amaris could very well have been given special clearance by Richard for doing this very thing Manipulating the quartermaster corps …. Highly unlikely as Logistics reports directly to C2 any attempt to manipulate should be instantly detected and tracked back to originating orders. Plus any overt move like this by Stefan could bring to the for his long term plans. Kerensky could order a greater surveillance over the RWR – what would happen if his secret army was discovered early, before it was transported due to Stefan’s childish prank? Best thing is to appear as you have no agenda other than supporting Richard – thus there is no uncertainty as plans for the future. Quote: The automated process of ordering things could not be changed just a little so someone with access to Richard's personal password couldn't possibly order things and bury it in the mounds of paperwork the SL would have on any given day? Rulers do not get bogged down in the small stuff ….. find an procurement clerk if you want to go down this track …. Just watch out for the auditors! Quote: look at how things get ordered from manufacturers. Orders are placed. It can be placed by anyone with the authority to do so. Sorry but no they do not. There is a process as to procurement – usually going through a specific military department, requiring massive forms (in triplicate) as well as being vetted by an auditors department to ensure the form has been completed as per regs. Quote: explain how secret research facilities as well as bases were able to get their supplies. Hidden fleets of transport ships, easy ….. Quote: What? The ruler isn't the law as you have said in the past? Unless your ruler is a dictator even they will have rules they must follow …. Quote: feudal system. The Star League era is NOT a feudal system – consider reading information as to the SL court system. Quote: Radio silence also includes not believing things that are sent. Recognition codes would say otherwise this is why the communications unit has a code book …. Therefore flash over-rides still can be used to communicate important messages as long as all codes match up …. So yes you can believe a message that missive - Richard was assassinated – once it is decrypted and authenticated. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/06/20 12:47 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The U.S has NOT claimed lands around the world. The reference was in fact when it broke away from England for the revolutionary war. The popularity of Richard is NOT why he was executed. The citizens of the TH did not hire Amaris. A majority, over 50% voted to keep the usurper in. Funny how this is a flip from Katherine taking over the reigns of the LC. She killed her mother, which you said was ok as it was done through out history. So what is the difference here? Oh. I think I see. Killing family makes it ok? Or the favoritism of wanting that person to rule is? As said before. The story line being filled in has been an issue since they started it. Changing things as new ideas comes out, or trying to create stories to sell books has caused some issues with continuity. The rule changes have done so as well. At the base, the story line is fine. Adding in all the little conflicting details is what is causing things to go wrong. The numbers being one of the most prominent issues. Those in the house areas were NOT being used like the jump points around Defiance. And get your facts straight about the 5 hidden worlds. They were KNOWN. Comstar slowly got rid of their positions from them owning the HPG network. They were not hidden at the start. Might be the hidden army was what he used to 'reinforce' the TH with. The quartermaster follows orders handed down from those in command. Not sure why you think he would disobey orders sent electronically or even hand written, that is delivered to him by the office of the SL first lord. Sorry to say, but the presidents of a lot of countries do NOT speak with the quartermaster to get things done. Something the size of the SLDF would make that impossible, as orders would be coming in all day and night. Time is not the same on all worlds. Just because it's morning at SL HQ, does not mean those in the middle of the night on another world, will be doing the morning things. And what do you know. The orders came from Richard's account, and it is very probably when asked, Richard told them to fill it and don't bother him again after the first few times that checked it out. Sound like someone that feels they are the ultimate leader and can't be bothered with trivial things like supplies? You profile Amaris as being a psychopath yet can't figure out Richard? Missing the full story again. Do you think Amaris would not have gotten someone into the system to order things? To stonewall anyone trying to get further, by referring auditors to the first lord, so he could tell them to never bother him with such crap again? Oh yeah. A ruler of a realm isn't smart enough to even begin to think of this. Nice dodge there. The hidden assets need to order the items to continue running. Those orders go thru the quartermasters department. Most of the time, they do not know that the facilities exist or if they are secret or not. They just fill the orders and put them in the warehouses they were told to. Ships come and pick up the supplies, and then sent to hidden fleets of transports. Not sure why I had to explain this. And with this, why wouldn't Amaris find out where some of these assets were if he had such extensive access to the SL files? The SL is made up of individual nations that serve a leader, then goes to autonomous states, that are not part of the main organization, and have their own laws and regulations, yet agree to follow the first lord. Vassal states serving the one organization that leads them all. Sounds like feudalism to me. Even the TH is a vassal state in this set up. They are different entities before, during and after the SL was in effect. I can see where this might be argued that it is like the U.N. Nations agreeing to cooperate with each other. But feudalism seems to fit a little better.
Requiem 07/06/20 10:12 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The citizens of the TH did not hire Amaris. A majority, over 50% voted to keep the usurper in. And yet Stefan is not and has never been a member of the TH Government / Ruling Family – he is a member of the RWR government. Example country A invades country B – country A’s ruler Kills Country B’s Monarch (personally) and Nukes their Army – Country A’s ruler then invites the citizens of country B to vote for him at an upcoming election ……. Ie. this election is not only illegal it is Country A using undue influence upon country B as they have now killed their former monarchy, used WMDs on their forces and have occupied their country with their military forces …. Sorry but the concept that Stefan can be voted into anything by the TH citizens following the murder of the Cameron family, nuking the Black Watch and the occupation of every SLDF military facility within the TH to be completely and utterly ridiculous …… The only way this could be considered viable is if not only the TH people but the entire TH government (including the Cameron Family) supported and welcomed his forces ….ie. a peaceful transition of power (As was seen with Katherine in the far future – the people, the government and the military welcomed her – Peaceful transition of power)……and what was written here for Stefan is far from peaceful. It can only be described as a COUP! PS – The Lyran people did not know and were never provided with proof as to Katherine’s guilt in regards to her mother’s assassination – Victor was never able to source this information – so as far as the Lyran people know she is as clean and white as newly fallen snow! However, everyone would know (or suspect) what Stefan did to the Royal Family – especially when he declared himself Emperor (you cannot have two monarchs one has to go). Quote: Adding in all the little conflicting details is what is causing things to go wrong. The numbers being one of the most prominent issues. Thirty Five years ….. just one book with a notation as to a previous error and a further clarification of the events how hard is that to create once it has been identified there is an issue with the history. I would also like to point out this time line is not some small battle on the fringe of society – the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War is the foundation from which all history going forward is built upon (it is the bedrock upon which all else is built). Thus if there is an error there then ALL history going forward becomes fruit of the poisoned tree …. ie. it too is now questionable! Case in point RWR manufactured at a minimum 500 BattleMech Regiments and navy of well over 300 warships (5x the number of any House in ‘Mechs and Warships) and the Jump-ships / Drop-ships necessary to move these forces to their respective periphery / TH locations (Amaris’ Secret Army) – where are the military industrial capabilities / naval industrial capabilities that were able to manufacture them? During the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War (canon version) they were apparently captured by the SLDF so that they could be used by the SLDF to manufacture enough logistical supplies to sustain a long campaign within the TH against the entrenched RWR forces. Thus at this stage they must be intact …… Post collapse of the Star League the Lyran state walked in and absorbed the RWR with a minimum of damage. Thus at this stage they must be intact …… the Lyrans would have then fortified this entire area and turned on everything to increase their military’s size and lethality. Thus at this stage they must be intact …… and yet canon has them disappearing like they never existed ….. the flow of time and materials are once more modified in a manner that cannot be explained just like the TO&E of every great IS house within the 20 Year Update …. To that of the next House Book produced ….. An explanation as to what happened to the RWR military and Naval workshops would be appreciative at this point … please …. as these massive amounts of industries / space yards do not simply vanish overnight at the same time as that of the Exodus. Quote: And get your facts straight about the 5 hidden worlds. They were KNOWN. Comstar slowly got rid of their positions from them owning the HPG network. They were not hidden at the start. Yes I have heard that argument and disregarded it, the idea is ludicrous – to believe that Comstar could wave a magic wand and have all the maps maintained by every vessel and every sea-faring corporation and every University and every Great House change over a period of time is beyond ridiculous. It is on the same level of ridiculousness that all advanced Star League Information disappeared. Especially when there are hundreds of worlds that were never touched by the ravagers of the succession wars …. That means any information held on these worlds must be intact! One Hospital on one untouched world and they could have a complete SL medical library regarding everything as at that time …. Plus every world must have their own medical teaching facilities once they reach a certain population so how could this knowledge just disappear? The logic behind total knowledge collapse is not viable when thought through. As for the five hidden worlds can I used this as an EXAMPLE as to explain how they could have been inserted into the canon history – ie. rather than being worlds lost to time that Comstar rebuilt – as second explanation that they COULD HAVE BEEN originally SLDF re-supply worlds hidden from the eyes of the Great Houses and used to re-supply the massive war machine that the SLDF had become and yes they were hidden from te start. Quote: Might be the hidden army was what he used to 'reinforce' the TH with. CANNON FACT - The narrative is clear – Stefan provided every Periphery State with (approximately) 100 BattleMech Regiments; 14 – 70 Conventional Regiments and 15 – 16 Warships each so that they can keep the SLDF busy within the Periphery whilst he conquered the TH. Quote: The quartermaster follows orders handed down from those in command. Not sure why you think he would disobey orders sent electronically or even hand written, that is delivered to him by the office of the SL first lord. Highly unusual for the First Lord to issue such an order directly as this is bypassing his C2 Officers and their respective departments – any sane person would request authenticity verification from C2 before taking action. Thus C2 would ask of the First Lord what he is doing ….. It just does not work in such a way as that the First Lord can just issue orders to the quartermaster corps – they have a procedure all of their own that they must flow through ….. Quote: orders would be coming in all day and nigh Correct, and this is why there is a massive bureaucracy – that requires every request to be completed in the appropriate manner and on the appropriate form and to be accompanied by all the necessary forms signed by their respective CO etc. Quote: Missing the full story again. Do you think Amaris would not have gotten someone into the system to order things? The reverse is also true – don’t you think that the SLDF will get their spy into the RWR. Also there are people within the auditors’ office and counter insurgency department. Spy Vs. Spy ….. Plus a ruler of the realm does not have control over their security agencies – they can appoint the top person (who can set some type of agenda) but in reality when it comes to the day to day investigations they-are-out there are on their own. Quote: Nice dodge there. The hidden assets need to order the items to continue running. Military Units dispatch forms via the Quartermaster Corps; They then log them and send the request up via HPG to their respective Cain of Command Officer for approval ….; Somewhere along the line these request forms are either sent to the TH SLDF for processing or to their shadow quartermaster for processing on their hidden re-supply worlds; Supply Jump-ships are dispatched from either location arrive and unload as per normal …. Then disappear back into the void from which they came …. And as far as anyone else is concerned there is nothing untoward going on ….. This is not a dodge, it is the most efficient means of keeping a vast army re-supplied – so that its tactical flexibility is maintained. Quote: And with this, why wouldn't Amaris find out where some of these assets were if he had such extensive access to the SL files? If Stefan had access to every scrap of information then why didn’t he destroy Camelot Command – a base from which the SLDF Navy had been using to Spy on the RWR for the past 200+ years? Thus he did NOT have access to every file only those that were not destroyed during the initial Coup. Quote: The SL is made up of individual nations that serve a leader, then goes to autonomous states, that are not part of the main organization, and have their own laws and regulations, yet agree to follow the first lord. Vassal states serving the one organization that leads them all. Sounds like feudalism to me. Then what is State and Federal Government? Sorry but the closest approximation we have to the SL is that of the United Nations. First Lord = US Secretary General as well as the Ruler of the TH; High Council = UN Security Council SLDF = UN Peacekeeping Force And this is the main issues:- Is the removal of the Cameron Family and the annexation of the TH by Stefan and the RWR an internal issue to which the SLDF has no right to interfere with or is it required to act to maintain international peace and security? And in addition, can a third party remove the current First Lord, by force, and in so doing become the new SL First Lord? Suggest reading the following ….. https://peacekeeping.un.org/en/mandates-and-legal-basis-peacekeeping Sorry but I disagree it is completely the antithesis of feudalism – there is no Lord – Nobility – Vassals – Peasant relationship in existence that would be similar to that of medieval Europe ….. There are rulers and there are nobility however this is as far as it goes as most of the worlds within the IS maintain a democratic government for the majority of the people. Thus for most worlds the similarity is with that of the English Parliament – House of representatives – House of Lords – The Queen (or in this case the noble in charge of the world.) Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/07/20 03:58 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Saying it is fact, and then saying you disregarded the printed facts on it, says what? It says you are not going by facts, but your concept of what you want it to go like. This makes the rest of the ideas more faerie tale then anything else, as it is not based on facts. Worlds could have a lot of things. Then again, certain information was restricted to specific entities on worlds. There is no real reason to have a nuclear tech on a world that does not use nuclear anything. On vacation would be the about the only reason they would be there. No jobs. So with this, if the worlds around it that did use nuclear energy fell, it is highly unlikely that the world without it would have the tech stored somewhere. Printed copies? More and more print shops are closing down as the demand for printed things like books is dropping. Everything it easier to access online. Where does it say Amaris gave out that many units to the other periphery realms? The narrative is clear? Yet it was not printed as such. So only the comprehensive viable solution comes out and now being claimed as fact? Even going thru the whole system, no one is going to tell the First Lord, he can not order anything. Richard was not some responsible, trained leader. He said do this, and expected it to be done without even asking a single question back. Hence the declaration to reduce the house military units. Do your really think he would not help someone he thought was a friend? The law does not apply to him when giving away something. Or so he thought. So no order is questioned, unless it is by someone that uses the same codes and such, but isn't part of the government. Yet there is no way to know this is not from the First Lords office, signed by the first lord himself? Circular logic hole here. Do your really think he would destroy a warship repair facility near his home, when he could take it and use it against the IS? Might as well just chop off your hands as they might type something that you will regret later. Amaris would seize them all as he did Terra, and use them to force the houses to bow to him. First lord is nothing compared to the Emperor. Vain, he was. Stupid, he wasn't. First lord, princes, archons, coordinators... The TH had their own government that was not the SL. So I guess it was all a democracy, as no one had the power to say this is it, and make it stick without years of voting. The council was made of the heads of other nations that were part of, but not a piece of, the TH community. They were separate, just like vassals. And they fought with each other, which doesn't happen in a unified government.
Requiem 07/07/20 09:02 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Analysis is built upon comprehension – assessing the evidence and determining the soundness of the interpretation created from the evidence. It requires the ability of differentiating between expressions of opinion and informed hypotheses based upon / grounded in historical evidence. To understand ‘the narrative’ it requires an analysis of …. How change occurs in IS society; How human (Character) intentions matter to the wider group etc. within the story’s narrative; It is not only about what happened it is about how it unfolded; and You need to assess the information on which to draw a conclusion …. Given the limited amount of information there will always be a healthy degree of skepticism when it comes to the history of the IS. However as stated, I do not know how many times, my writings are my personal comprehension of the events and my skepticism when issues do not produce a logical extension of the narrative ….. Case in point Gen, A Kerensky has 20 Armies …. Those elements of the 1st that were within the TH have been all but destroyed by Stefan when he initiated his Coup ….. <It is only at this point that we are expected to believe that Stefan’s Hidden Army becomes known as belonging to the new “Amaris Empire”.> Three of the Four Army’s that are assigned to the Periphery are engaged with Periphery forces (only within two of these realms MoC and TC) and the third (OA) has decided to maintain a policy of neutrality. However all three Periphery realms were each supplied with a Shadow Army of approx. 100 BattleMech Regiments; numerous Conventional regiments; and 15-16 Warships each. The objective of which is to tie down as many SLDF regiments as possible to as to complete a coup within the TH and at the same time the SL and the SLDF. < This is where the story looses the plot – did no one ask where these additional forces came from? – did no one undertake battlefield salvage so as to identify the source of the component parts used in manufacturing these new weapon systems – what about a metallurgical report? – What about any POWs taken in combat, at this stage any person from the RWR should have been easy to identify. Thus the idea that the Secret Army can remain secret post first contact is beyond ludicrous.> This strategy worked when Stefan advised Richard that the most humanitarian response would be to end the conflict as soon as possible – and n so doing save lives. Thus Richard ordered Gen. A Kerensky to utilize additional forces to end this and that he was to take personal command within the Periphery (thus effectively removing him and the majority of his command staff from Terra) – an order to which he obeyed (though we do not know which additional SLDF units assigned to each House were assigned to ongoing Periphery conflict.) And we are supposed to believe that the SLDF’s intelligence Corps is still totally unaware of how the Periphery were able to increase the size and the professionalism of their forces . However, Gen. A Kerensky disputed Stefan’s assertion of being the First Lord ….. requesting clarification from the High Council Members he was provided with their answer, that they were not going to get involved ….. they were happy to just let events unfold ….. <This is where the story looses the plot.> Gen A Kerensky has one army sitting on the door step of the RWR – it could have been activated at this point to take RWR Capitol and any other important world and hold unto relieved. Remember close by there are at least 5 armies located within Steiner and Kurita space that can be dispatched with all due alacrity to strike at the RWR – to find and hold all of their military industrial complexes – whist at the same time removing any command and control elements within the RWR as well as the removal of their military forces. Then we are supposed to believe that Gen A. Kerensky does not invade the TH. He decides it is better to sit outside for a number of years. Allowing Stefan to build a new army comparable with that of the SLDF’s military. <If he did sit outside and do nothing then he is the most incompetent Gen. ever to have existed …. And that is saying something! Kerensky, as far as IS history is concerned, he is supposed to be one of the Greatest Generals of all time or is this a lie and it is all PR?> So I must ask - Really???!!!! The SLDF is a Marine Orientated Army …… One Armada of warships and transport vessels that can be sent from any of the 5 SLDF House Army’s can be dispatched to arrive at a strike target of Terra upon a certain day, that can be easily computed (Hanse was able to replicate in the 4th SW). Logistics should / would not be a problem and even if there was a logistical issue throughout the army as a whole – the ability to bring together logistics for a “small” strike force is still achievable. FACT – Stefan only has 144 Regiments and 270 ships: ; This force is supposed to keep out the SLDF – TO&E over 4,000 Regiments and 5,800 War-ships – Even at its worst case scenario (sending additional forces to the Periphery and the RWR) Gen A. Kerensky has the ability to send 7-8 Armies worth of Ships, Men / women, and material to Terra and the TH as a primary strike force – utilizing a Blitzkrieg tactic can anyone explain how Stefan could have repulsed a force this large within the opening months of the Coup? Sorry to say but as written (given the information I have to hand so far) this does not produce a believable and comprehensive story! So, please amend <or provide me with an update> so that I can understand the realities of the Kerensky-Amaris War. Quote: Worlds could have a lot of things. Alarion – Lyran Commonweath – only invaded by the RWR in 2575 and again in 2581 during Operation Mailed Fist and the next time they were attacked was during a the FedCom Civil War – and throughout history they have maintained port Sydney Naval Shipyard – that requires a highly educated workforce. In addition to this the planetary population must be of a size that it would require its own Universities / technical collages to maintain society – as we do currently – to believe their entire retained knowledge suddenly disappears is ludicrous. Then there is the issue of the SL Department of Education and Information and Prometheus Inc. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League#Department_of_Education_and_Information “responsible for publishing books and managing almost a thousand libraries across the Star League. Putting out material designed to promote peace and understanding, Prometheus Inc. also ran a massive information database, accessible by anyone within their libraries or through a personal computer, which was located on Terra.” Where did all this information disappear to? Quote: certain information was restricted to specific entities on worlds. Nuclear anything ….. not so even today nuclear medicine and nuclear theory, the of building nuclear reactors as an engineer can be studied at a University Level – it is the ability to create any banned materials that is the real issue! Quote: Where does it say Amaris gave out that many units to the other periphery realms? Please refer to the above web page links below each periphery state – they were placed there to provide where the evidence originated / and as a bibliography reference; They are fact! Quote: Even going thru the whole system, no one is going to tell the First Lord, he can not order anything. There are many unwritten rules with regards to any ruler – one of them is being ostentatious with their wealth – second many Lords (such as those in England following Cromwell) have fixed budget income set by parliament and the Exchequer. Unfortunately the daily purse strings upon the First Lord remain a mystery as it was never considered of any import. Thus there is no definitive information as to this topic. Quote: Do your really think he would not help someone he thought was a friend? The law does not apply to him when giving away something. Help yes ….However even a First Lord is constrained by the Law ……consider reading the history and import as to the Magna Carta and how this document produced many more similar documents / constitutions throughout history. Quote: So no order is questioned, unless it is by someone that uses the same codes and such, but isn't part of the government. Yet there is no way to know this is not from the First Lords office, signed by the first lord himself? Circular logic hole here. Suggest reviewing the older more affordable Jane’s Military Communications books – or how about a simple e-mail (TO: ; FROM: ; SUBJECT: : Missive information). Quote: Do your really think he would destroy a warship repair facility near his home, when he could take it and use it against the IS? Remember Camelot Command is, in all probability, the perfect location for the SLDF C3 for the entire SLDF invasion of the RWR – it should have been a primary target for Amaris’ forces within the RWR. And yet, there is no evidence to suggest that Camelot Command had come under attack by Amaris’ forces - if it did then why is there no evidence of battlefield damage when it came to describing the facility when it was rediscovered by Adam Steiner and next by Snord’s Irregulars? No evident battlefield damage – no battle – Amaris did not know of this secret facilities location - Stefan did not know of its location / import. Quote: The TH had their own government that was not the SL. Which can be found at https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Terran_Hegemony#Politics Quote: The council was made of the heads of other nations that were part of, but not a piece of, the TH community. They were separate, just like vassals. And they fought with each other, which doesn't happen in a unified government. By this analogy everyone within the UN is a vassal to that of the Secretary General of the UN. Sorry but again the idea of feudalism within the IS is a complete and utter misnomer – the closest representation is that of the English Government (17th to mid 18th Century). As there is no evidence whatsoever as to Lord – Serf relationship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom - please read. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight. Edited by Requiem (07/07/20 08:40 PM)
ghostrider 07/07/20 12:09 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The thought that those extra forces were not home made, and kept off the books like the house lords did? And the idea that 20 ships can hold up the SLDF for this and Amaris can't do the same shows the flaws in the whole concept here? Another possibility is the forces came from houses opposed to the ones that were in combat with each periphery nation. Not as likely as some of the others, but a one approach fits all isn't going to answer things. The story loses a lot of logic with more then a few things, further back in history then the SL. The government of the Terran Alliance would NOT have allowed all those colonies to form, especially when they were found to not have been oked by the government. They would have been shut down. Hence, they would have limited just how many there were at any one time, and possibly caused each one of them to pay fees for military presence on their world, or to pay for new units. This would slow down even more colonies, as most did not have all that extra funding. The galactic internet could be done by just setting up a few viruses, or taking down the data base physically. I was going to say the software company probably had governmental controls in them to restrict that data on a simple input of a code, but that sounds a lot like a big company has done in our time, so will stay away from that. The printed books.. Hanse was part of a raid that found a cache of books printed in the League era. Most were burned, but those at the bottom of the piles were still intact. That might lead to part of how the information was removed. Strike against places that had such knowledge. Any known research facility would be a target in the succession wars. With this, some facilities would probably fake the destruction of said knowledge to avoid a visit from the shadows of the IS. Through out history, there are more then a few examples of how the ruler of a government has exceeded their authority (break the law) and get away with it. It is happening today. So saying it is illegal, and stopping it from happening are two far distanced things. And that isn't to say that profiteering and embezzlement wasn't rampant at that time. It could well be, it wasn't caught as hundreds, if not thousands were doing this, and kept the investigations from happening, to bribing those investigating. This would also include threats to those doing so as well. A single bribe could well set anyone on the road to luxury. Not saying everyone would accept the bribes, but it is a limiting factor in catching those making the money. And it wouldn't be a surprise if some companies just didn't make the items they were paid for in the amount that was ordered.
Requiem 07/07/20 08:38 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The thought that those extra forces were not home made, and kept off the books like the house lords did? And yet the House Lords were more overt and less covert, whereas the RWR produced (above their legal limit) well over 400 Regiments of BattleMechs and well over 300 Warships … then there is the issue of training the people and providing logistical support and transport ….. all of which was hidden form everyone. I would also like to point out that the SLDF unit assigned to the RWR conducted multiple Reconnaissance missions throughout the RWR thus opening the question as where these units were manufactured and trained as well as what happened to then during the Amaris-Kerensky War as well as post exodus. Quote: And the idea that 20 ships can hold up the SLDF for this and Amaris can't do the same shows the flaws in the whole concept here? Please re-read above:- Any Naval Battles will come off badly for any Periphery (due to their limited numbers); Periphery Strategy – Hit and Run (Hidden systems will be required for this strategy) + attacking undefended logistics Jump-ship / drop-ship fleets; SLDF Strategy – Hunt and destroy to an entrapment strategy; The question is how long can they keep this up? My bet not that long … However, the main problem is that the Periphery forces BattleMech Regiments are for the first time in greater numbers than the SLDF. Also as the majority of these forces are RWR expect they are on a similar professional level as that of the SLDF and they are willing to use human shields – retreat into a populated city – as well as using short range nuclear ordinances against the SLDF - thus it is going to take time to dig the RWR ground forces out of their Periphery bases. Thus there are no concept flaws. Quote: Another possibility is the forces came from houses opposed to the ones that were in combat with each periphery nation. Yes they can be considered a suspect initially, except for the fact none of the Great Houses were involved in any conflict at that time – and then there is the issue of POWs as well as battlefield salvage and component parts analysis. A more exotic issue to consider:- The issue of Strontium (Sr), with regards to their isotopes, within the bones (more precisely their teeth) of the deceased (acquired through eating) – if the intelligence operations groups have access to this information <via medication information> it is possible to determine their origins. <A technique used in archeology currently, but in the far future it could be used to who knows what …> Quote: The printed books… There are almost a thousand libraries out there that contain a massive information data base … has anyone gone through the list to determine where all one thousand libraries are …. As I would have assumed that there should be a llibrary upon every Great Houses Capitol World thus the issue comes back to what happened to these libraries? As for computer virus …. this is why there are firewalls …. and then there is the ability to air gap them from the net …. and then there is the ability to create copies ….. then there is the investigation into who would want to destroy this information … There is a myriad ways to destroy and retain information – the main question is why isn’t there a history entry into such an egregious destruction of public information would have reached the History pages. Quote: Throughout history, there are more then a few examples of how the ruler of a government has exceeded their authority (break the law) and get away with it. True …. And yet how many times have the press as well as internal controls stopped their actions? The issue is what is the true limits of Richard’s power … and to what extent is he willing to go for a ‘friend’? Unfortunately there is again no definitive information on this topic and as such the debate is impossible to resove. Richard is incredibly naive when it comes to Stefan this much is true, and yet Stefan did not tip his hand until the Throne Room Massacre – may I suggest that Stefan didn’t do anything untoward until he murdered Richard and once Stefan declared himself Emperor he used the office to get everything he wanted – and anyone who said no was quickly put up against the wall – thus shortly thereafter there were no obstacles for Stefan getting what he wanted (within the reason of people acting as a resistance movement within the bureaucracy - that would explain Camelot Command not being a target for RWR forces during the invasion of the RWR by the SLDF.) Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight. Edited by Requiem (07/07/20 08:42 PM)
ghostrider 07/08/20 02:29 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Honestly, the question of how the periphery states even got to build warships has come up. Jumpships would be a must, but warships would require tech that is questionable in the IS nations. Not sure why this concept even popped up or why it sounds odd. The idea that say the FS secretly gave the RWR forces to keep the LC and DC occupied with trying to remove them is what I was getting at. As the TC builds what was originally units designed and used by the LC, comes to mind. The DC may well have given units to the TC and MoC, but not in great numbers, or had a better agreement that they would not build the DC units. Firewalls only work when the codes are not known to someone trying to wipe out information. One major OS has been accused of containing such a code, and it seems the government leaned on them to put it in and keep it quiet. The Wannacry malware exploited one such weakness. It was known for years and never patched. The idea that something like the SL would have such a back door is almost guaranteed. It may well have been one of the reasons they had such good intel on those that dealt with them. The periphery states might have been more active in looking for such issues, and fixing them when found. It is possible that he didn't get access to intel like Camelot until after the massacre. But once he did, I don't think any of those facilities were 'secret' anymore. I would bet he sold such information to the highest bidder, then sold it again to the next highest, until everyone had it. Even using it to entice the house lords into resisting Kerensky. They did not have to openly attack the SLDF, but do exactly what they did. Refuse to allow the SLDF free passage thru their areas.
Requiem 07/08/20 06:55 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: how the periphery states even got to build warships has come up? Yes I agree the issue here is how Stefan was able to do it whilst keeping the entire process hidden form everyone – even the SLDF reconnaissance units assigned to keep tabs on the RWR were unable to identify the threat until after it occurred. What this indicates is that the RWR has had a parity of technology with the TH (and by extension the SLDF) for a very long period of time (to build 500+ Regiments and train them as well the transports necessary for these forces, and in addition to all the material and technology to build over 300+ Warships). The amount of time required too build these facilities, as well as the vehicles / ships should also be considered when answering this question. As far as I can see this can mean only one thing – “Hidden Industrial World(s)”- for the manufacture of every weapons system available, the training of their army / navy as well as the massive shipyards that produced the fleets necessary and ensuring the human assets necessary for the entire process to work. This plot, in my opinion, must be multi-generational in that a previous RWR leader started the process and it was only in Stefan's rule did the available forces become available for him to strike. The only solution, again in my opinion, is that a RWR spy was able to penetrate TH (and by extension the SLDF) information archives and in doing so provided the RWR with a parity of technology – and the spy was able to complete this action without the any counter measures being tripped. <Someone needs to create a bio about this person as they are now on the level of Snow Fire as to the interest they would generate from conspiracy theorists.> Then there is the second issue where are these “Hidden Industrial Worlds as well as their massive shipyards”, and down through the ages what happened to them .. are they still out there or were they destroyed and when were they destroyed and by who? Quote: The idea that say the FS secretly gave the RWR forces to keep the LC and DC occupied with trying to remove them is what I was getting at. This is an interesting conspiracy theory, I like it. Though, it would take at least a 100 years (again in my opinion) to manufacture everything in a perfect setting – though this does open questions as to why this amount of equipment could not have been manufactured by a House unit between 3050 to 3150 as well as the WoB prior to the Jihad or by extension by ComStar in their desire to create a new Star League under one Blakean Theocracy (Com Guard only at one tenth the size it should have been at?) That said if the Amaris-Kerensky Civil war started in 2766 – this would implicate the FS First Prince circa 2666. Zane Davion – First Prince 2600-2659 – no other information on him. Sarah Davion – First Princess 2659-2681 – no other information on her. May I make one suggestion though – Have look at Norman Aris CC Chancelor 2599 to 2611 (150 years to Amaris civil war) https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Normann_Aris as well as the Korvin Doctrine https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Korvin_Doctrine Having a religious cult who believes in “the outward expansion of humanity is a desirable social and philosophical objective” would desire to assist the RWR with that aim (Jump-ship / Drop-ship Technology; Warship ?) In addition to “A central authority must be responsible for the reconciliation of divergent human values.” Under a joint CC and RWR rule? … also Norman “was an executive at Earthwerks Limited who oversaw production of several BattleMech designs.”(Providing the RWR with BattleMech Technology). Could he have been enticed to provide the information to bring the RWR into the religious fold? His death on Nanking in 2611 also points at a possible assassination by those whose power was being threatened by him from within the CC. Could this have been a ruse by the RWR to get rid of him as they no longer needed him, they had all the information they needed to start their Hidden Army Program. Makes for an interesting possible back story <Alt Universe History ?> Quote: I would bet he sold such information to the highest bidder, then sold it again to the next highest, until everyone had it. Problem with this is that only the LA and DC would be interested – and yet neither of then made any effort to move on the fortress – thus the secret was kept. If Stefan wants to be the next First Lord then he will need to have the next version of the SLDF to assume their position of power – why would he give away secrets if he will need that information to remain secret in the future to rule? Edited by Requiem (07/08/20 06:56 AM)
ghostrider 07/08/20 12:14 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Push a little further with the houses giving the periphery units. The CC and FWL could have been doing so as well. This would make the SLDF intel gathering operations look like they were having issues, which may have lead to the whole fiasco of the periphery wars, and the events leading up to the assassination. Doubt it would run in canon, but bits and part of it sound like it might be just another piece of the puzzle. If the 3 houses were supplying units, that would explain the explosion of the number of machines the RWR had to get even anywhere near the numbers they had. Excuses like a pirate struck the dropship carrying say a battalion of mechs being shipped, when pressed on why the periphery state had brand new, or even used mechs from another realm. Still would like to know how they were able to build warships. The houses during the Clan invasion had issues with not having the facilities to build the engines comes to mind. Yes, the succession wars destroyed a large chunk of those, but how would the periphery states have gotten them in the first place. One conspiracy theory comes to mind here, and that is places like Camelot Command may well have been an RWR base, found by the SLDF and seized. Not very likely in canon, but would solve a small part of where the warships were built. Not thinking far enough into the sale of information here. Camelot Command was only one of a few facilities spread around the IS. So those near the CC/FS border may well be something both of those states would want, and I can see the FS worrying about Camelot as if the DC gets it, that means more warship production for the DC. The FWL is the same for the LC getting ahold of it. Now what about any mech production that is in the house territory? Tanks? Weapon production? And timing is the key. The information might well be something to entice the LC/DC to help remove the SLDF from their attack. Or flip it around some, and put up information to sell on the nations own facility locations the SL intel found, but other houses didn't know about. Plans to military industries lay out, so infiltrators could get in without being caught.
Requiem 07/08/20 10:48 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: the SLDF intel. gathering operations look like they were having issues Makes for a reasonable assumption based upon the information to hand. To build an Army of a couple of hundred regiments, their training, their transport as well as a couple hundred warships requires that the RWR has a vastly superior intelligence operation compared to that of the SLDF intelligence. If the Great House are also involved then I would agree with you the SLDF intelligence organization is inept. Quote: If the 3 houses were supplying units, that would explain the explosion of the number of machines the RWR had to get even anywhere near the numbers they had. Yes, I agree it could explain a small increase, hypothetically 10 regiments from each house, given the limitations each house fields – as if this was the case each Great house must have supplied the RWR with approx. 125 regiments each and the RWR would need to come up with the balance of 125 regiments – However, when they have an increase of 450 regiments this becomes very hard to justify rationally. Thus I must come back to the “Hidden Military Industrialized Worlds” scenario as the primary reason. I would also like to say if each House supplied 125 regiments (massive investment in money and people) wouldn’t they want to be within the game (make sure their investment is bearing fruit) and not sitting on the side lines? Quote: Still would like to know how they were able to build warships. Stolen technology is the only solution I can determine. If Camelot Command was originally a RWR facility – why didn’t t it crease questions within the SLDF intelligence organization and when the Coup was initiated why didn’t the RWR send a small attack force to retrieve it as given its location it is a perfect staging base from which to launch an invasion into the RWR from. Quote: Camelot Command was only one of a few facilities spread around the IS. So those near the CC/FS border may well be something both of those states would want, and I can see the FS worrying about Camelot as if the DC gets it, that means more warship production for the DC. The FWL is the same for the LC getting a-hold of it. When considering this I ask myself – where are the SLDF Bases within the Great Houses? Then I ask myself what about hidden bases? Let’s consider each of the Great Houses - Each has 3 Armies and each Army can have 3 to 4 Corps if one Corps to a world then each Great House should have at a minimum 9 to 12 worlds within their realms where the SLDF Garrison their forces and above these worlds would be a massive Naval Ship-Yard for their Naval Units (Both Transport and Warship). However there is also the need to consider the SLDF Intelligence Navy in that throughout the duration of the SL they have established multiple hidden Naval Bases – given the location Apollo is to Camelot Command my hypothesis is that within two / three jumps of every Capitol World Periphery / Great House the SLDF have established a SLDF “Camelot Command” Naval Facility – Hidden from their knowledge of each Great House, as to its exact location, but close enough that they can monitor each House Lord – and whenever a House Lord wavers from their duty to the SL it can be hinted at as a Sword of Damocles to keep them in line.. So in reality the SL was never this benevolent / utopian League of Nations who’s primary responsibility was to promote peace. On the contrary it was pretty much dictatorial and the SLDF was their club (it is just that many individuals joined with idealistic values and pretty much never figured out unless they became part of an operation with questionable aims.) So lets step back – each Great House could have 12 worlds garrisoned – and each Periphery state could have 9 worlds Garrisoned (However, the TC has only 13 worlds at the time of the Amaris Coup so would 9 of these worlds be under garrison or would some of them be just over the border in FS space?) – (and With the exception of the RWR who during Richard’s Reighn was asked to leave and yet only moved to world just beyond the RWR border ie. additional Lyran Worlds) So for each realm which worlds are used as a garrison by a SLDF Corps? Quote: Now what about any mech production that is in the house territory? Tanks? Weapon production? I still cannot see the Great Houses supplying the RWR in force unless they had skin in the game and they too fought against the SLDF – was there a shadow war going on behind the scenes between The Great Houses and Kerensky during the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War? <Never made it to the history books – but it did occur – and yes this is where Stefan is selling information to the Great Houses – this is why in the far future no one goes looking for all the other Great Houses’ Camelot Commands – Stefan sold the information to the Houses and they sent their fleets to eliminate the threat once and for all – this is also why Kerensky was unable to make the Houses come to Terra post coup for such a long period of time – he had lost the ability to hold the sword of Damocles over each of the Great Houses from then on – there were finally free of the SL tyranny. Or once captured by each House they were finally used to beef un each Houses Warship Numbers – thus putting Kerensky’s final naval numbers on par with each of the Houses Naval numbers.> Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/09/20 12:29 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The investment may well have been to have Kerensky submit to the houses that were supplying the forces. Simply stepping back away from them expanding their forces, to increasing the tech they got, or even increasing other things like lowering costs for transporting or buying/selling between the SL and their respective areas. Even giving them a few warships would have been worth it. Gains can be anything that someone finds worth it. Say paying 1billion for the units, and getting 4 billion back, or just the ability to build the higher tech might be such a deal. It might also be nothing more then setting up the SLDF to become absorbed into one of the houses military, though this would be a little harder to do then the lords might think. Greater control over the SLDF in their area is another possible goal. The question of building the warships applies to all the periphery realms. The cost of a single warship could very well buy an entire colonies supplies for a few decades. If they were the backwater worlds that seems to be implied, then this doesn't really make sense. Pirates should never have access to anything like it, and even a small fleet of jumpships with fighter carriers would be more efficient to have and use. The houses might send something out to the periphery, but that would be easy enough to determine WHO sent it. And the idea of building the manufacturing facilities to make the stuff makes it that much more of a financial burden on the periphery. It isn't like the SLDF or houses were likely to buy from them. So why the expensive process? The SL came from the TH offering to form a unified set up. That did not mean the TH would give away their only sources of intel or security they had against the others. The automated detection units failed, which lead to having to have people stationed in areas. I want to say this was fluff for the Bugeyes. But there is one minor issue with them having it around the capitals of the houses. The LC capital was moved during the succession wars. Tharkad was not the original, but Arcturus was. That doesn't mean there wasn't one in that area, but it does dampen this a little. The garrison of a single world by each army sounds a bit unrealistic. More likely one HQ with the units spread out to cover multiple worlds. Allow them to scout them constantly, while using the guise of protecting the houses, as well as training the troops. It would also give them a chance to respond to any issues if they were not so condensed. Considering the first succession wars made it sound like fleets of warships clashed over multiple worlds, the idea that 60 was max for each house sounds completely off. And it would not surprise me if some of those ship yards were what the houses used to keep warships in the fight until the last ones were destroyed in the LC. How much time did the houses have to build the massive 51 warships? Was that a few years, or was that for the entire history of the SL? Even one facility over the entire length of the SL would produce more then that. I would think maybe the SL contracted those ship yards outside of the TH to build jumpships and drop ships, while all warships were produced in the TH, and used to trade with the houses for the ships that were made for the SL. Not solid, but just a thought. Those that survived until the 3025 era seem to be too few to have even begun to supply all the ships used since the creation and end of the SL. So unless the houses bought them from the SL, something is wrong with the numbers in this as well. Considering some of the fluff says a few ship yards were repaired to begin producing warships again, suggest they were not destroyed, but only damaged, or shut down to a lack of parts. This seems to run counter to the statement they were all nuked in the first 2 wars. So another example of their own information not really syncing up.
Requiem 07/09/20 02:13 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Possible investment returns that a great House may request of another could be either financial or political in nature. Quote: If they were the backwater worlds that seems to be implied, then this doesn't really make sense. Agree it really doesn’t make any sense unless the backwater realm worlds are (over time) become comparable (socially and technologically) with that of any advanced worlds throughout the IS. Could one of the SL aims have been to increase the technological development of periphery worlds and some-how it worked too well? Or. Could it be that the RWR was able to either convince or they purchased major technological corporations and were able (via economic rather than military power) to have subsidiaries established within the RWR. Time progressed and at the same time the RWR technology progressed until they were o par with the TH. What this would suggest is that over a short period of time the RWR was the recipient of a “gold-rush” involving a high value commodity – and it was subsequently invested in technology that over time produced a massive technological boom for the RWR. Though I would still like to say that the technological espionage angle would make for a better back story …. Everything from the acquisition of technology to the establishment of their military industrial complexes must have been established in secret and this is not easy to accomplish … somewhere along the line there must be secret cabal of very wealthy individuals who have access to a massive amount of technology and at the same time want to be rid of the SL …. and it was these same people who had Richard’s father assassinated …. I would like to say that History is missing something here … yest the fall guy was Stefan and yet there must have been a Cabal behind him …. Could it even exist in the far future? There is Black Dragon Society for example as well as others that exist in the IS so why not one that have never been discussed before and yet who’s members contain the elite of the elite. Quote: The LC capital was moved during the succession wars. Tharkad was not the original, but Arcturus was. That doesn't mean there wasn't one in that area, but it does dampen this a little. I would suggest that with the movement of the Capitol city so to with the hidden “Camelot Command Base” – a second hidden base was established close by. Quote: The garrison of a single world by each army sounds a bit unrealistic. More likely one HQ with the units spread out to cover multiple worlds. Problem with this is the number of worlds quickly increases with 4 Corps – 60-70 worlds is not beyond reach – politically no House lord would allow a military forces to be spread over such a wide number of worlds – from both a political and a military point of view you would rather want them to be on a small number of worlds – from an economic point of view you would want them on a large number of worlds to assist with the local economy …. So how do you want the SLDF spread over the House’s realm small or large number of worlds? Quote: Considering the first succession wars made it sound like fleets of warships clashed over multiple worlds, the idea that 60 was max for each house sounds completely off. Agree …. Somewhere along the line all of the Great Houses must have initiated a similar secret army protocol and were just biding their time – allowing the RWR and the TH to destroy each other before they swooped in and took everything for themselves. Quote: How much time did the houses have to build the massive 51 warships? A secondary consideration is that of the SL rules concerning the how many Regiments / Conventional Forces / Warships each house is allowed under the SL treaty – if they are only allowed 51 then the time to manufacture becomes hard to discern. Comparisons should also be made as to the time taken to manufacture warships post 3050 – it would be difficult to comprehend how the era of 3050 would be more efficient than that of SL era smaller ships months to larger capital ships no more than a year would be my first guess. Quote: So unless the houses bought them from the SL, something is wrong with the numbers in this as well. They could also have been RWR ships – considering that they were able to move 500+ regiments within a short period of time and in secret. Quote: Considering some of the fluff says a few ship yards were repaired to begin producing warships again, suggest they were not destroyed, but only damaged, or shut down to a lack of parts. This seems to run counter to the statement they were all nuked in the first 2 wars. So another example of their own information not really syncing up. Agree this is another contradiction that is hard to explain. There must be more out there that is hidden or lost to time …. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem 07/09/20 06:55 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Please note the following production times ….given the following information (as above) LCAF 2750 – 52 BattleMech Regiments – 40 WarShips 2765 – 90 BattleMech Regiments – 60 Warships (2.53 ‘Mech Regiments & 1.33 warships per year) 2784 – 104 BattleMech Regiments – 217 Warships (0.74 ‘Mech Regiments & 8.26 warships per year) DCMS 2750 – 55 BattleMech Regiments – 30 Warships 2765 – 115 BattleMech Regiments – 42 Warships (4 ‘Mech Regiments & 0.8 warships per year) 2786 – 161 Battlemech Regiments - ? (2.19 ‘Mech Regiments per year) AFFS 2750 – 53 BattleMech Regiments – 25 Warships 2765 – 110 BattleMech Regiments – 51 Warships (3.8 ‘Mech Regiments & 1.73 warships per year) CCAF 2750 – 42 BattleMech Regiments – 30 Warships 2765 – 92 BattleMech Regiments – 37 Warships (3.33 ‘Mech Regiments & 0.46 warships per year) 2786 – 192 BattleMech Regiments - ? (4.76 ‘Mech Regiments per year) FWLM 2750 – 60 BattleMech Regiments – 30 Warships 2765 – 95 BattleMech Regiments – 47 Warships (2.33 ‘Mech Regiments & 1.13 warships per year) RWR fleet as at 2765 – 270 + 15 + 16 ships = 301 ships (ships assigned to MoC as well as RWR are unknown) = given the max production rate of 8.26 per year (LCAF) this would require 36.44 years Assumptions MoC receives 15 Warships and RWR has ½ that of the fleet that was sent to the TH Total = 270 + 15 + 16 + 15 + 135 = 441 ships @ 8.26 per year = 53.39 years However with RWR BattleMech Regiments @ approximately 500 Regiments @ 4.76 per year (CCAF) = 105.04 years. Then there is the time taken to manufacture any Military Industrial Facilities prior to any Mech or warship coming off the production line must also be considered …. This would indicate that the RWR’s industrial capabilities must be many times greater than that of any Great House from at least 50 to 100 years prior to the Amaris-Kerensky Coup. The indication of these approximate time frames must be taken into consideration when considering the time for any secret cabal that led to the future overthrow Coup. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/09/20 11:59 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Several 'possible' things for the tech acquisition could be used. First being the a few companies looking for raw resources could have negotiated a deal with the periphery providing high level tech for better prices on things like ore. The idea of cheaper labor also comes to mind. The workers might well have been funneling information on what they were doing to entities in the periphery states. Even samples of components could have happened. The idea of 'oops. I put in the resistors the wrong way. Well time to throw it out' and the item disappears from the trash heap, along with a few others that were 'accidentally' screwed up in another way. Then again, what about a company coming in with high tech to extract the ores, such as a miner mech? There is a good basis for sneaking in battle mechs with higher tech, and retro fitting them with mining equipment. Multiple bases isn't the issue with moving the LC capital. The issue is how would the SL have known that they would do so? Unless there is some assets in the area of Tharkad before the SL fell, having one there to watch the LC wouldn't make sense. How I want then is irrelevant. I would think they were stationed on worlds important to the SL, as well as worlds that would make a good cover for them being there. Having them sit on worlds that tend to get 'pirates' would be necessary to keep the cover of protecting the nations. I can see the houses trying to keep them off some worlds, as they want to carry out secret projects, which might be stealing the tech, to nothing more then having a pleasure palace to get dirt on officials. Also, the SL would have to use local bases for at least refueling the warships. It would definitely draw questions on how the warships could operate in areas and not have a ship yard for at least maintenance. It might be SL owned, but in the open for all to see. Secret facilities would not cut it.
ghostrider 07/09/20 02:01 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Advanced Robotic Transport System Interesting heading in the wiki. It is part of the orbital SDS systems. So automated and probably remote controlled units that the rule say can not exist is in contradiction to this entire set up. A little more looking for remote control, and the wiki says the teleoperated missiles are remote controlled. So again, the rule saying it isn't possible shows false. Yes, this is a bit off the war information, but yet another issue of the developers not following their own rules. This is where a lot of the logic holes open up.
Requiem 07/09/20 08:17 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Several 'possible' things for the tech acquisition could be used. I agree there are several possible means in obtaining technology – however for the big ticket items like Naval Yards and Warships this will require access to a state who has a dedicated Naval Warship program that is comparable with that of the SLDF’s Navy. Quote: Multiple bases isn't the issue with moving the LC capital. The issue is how would the SL have known that they would do so? Answer – they didn’t. However, once the Lyrans announced the change there was a period of time where the new Capitol was not covered as other capitols were until the SLDF could find and build a new “Camelot Command Base” – that is for a period of time they had warships acting like submarines today – sent out - long voyage there and back - but when they get to their destination they sit out in the dark sea without anyone realizing they are there collecting massive amounts of signal traffic data that will be analyzed by security experts on their return. Ie. pretty much an ad hoc stop gap measure until they had their “Camelot Command” up and running. Quote: SL bases on Great Houses Worlds “ I would think they were stationed on worlds important to the SL.” Agree – strategically placed bases are of importance. Criteria: close to … Regional provinces capitol world; Major House’s Periphery military bases; Major transport routes used by jump-ships; Close to major House Ship-Yards; Close to borders – keeping the peace between states; All should be considered as viable reasons for SLDF base placement “Having them sit on worlds that tend to get 'pirates' would be necessary to keep the cover of protecting the nations.” Internal issue – let the Great Houses to run around fighting pirates – will give them something to do – plus it would be a way to spy on their military to view how they react and what weapons are used against the pirates. “I can see the houses trying to keep them off some worlds, as they want to carry out secret projects.” Can I come back to the “Hidden world doctrine” again? Great Houses MUST have hidden worlds for R&D as well as hidden military industrial complex production. “To nothing more then having a pleasure palace to get dirt on officials.” Honey traps? Yes this sometimes works – however there are a couple of states out there now who would ask for copies of the pictures so that they can give them to their bosses – they would see it as a badge of honor in that they were chosen to be black mailed – So the whole thing falls flat. Thus know the culture and know what is “taboo” before you get your spies to set your trap. As I could see the CC ministers going down this track and asking for a copy of any pictures … “the SL would have to use local bases for at least refueling the warships.” Unless the SLDF has their own hidden re-supply production worlds together with their own resupply ships / (supply-class fast combat ships.) “It would definitely draw questions on how the warships could operate in areas and not have a ship yard for at least maintenance.” That is until Yard Ships become common knowledge – Newgrange / Faslane Class. “It might be SL owned, but in the open for all to see. Secret facilities would not cut it.” And in secret – secret facilities can be built into the SLDF fortress – similar to that which Snird’s Irregulars has under their museum? Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/10/20 12:05 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The SL was famous for having secret bases on known worlds. They did not need full worlds to hide facilities on, though it would help some to do so. All those caches found in the succession wars would show this. The best known one would be the Helm base, which was on a world that was populated. More then a few others have been noted, but don't remember when or where at this time. Well, besides Galtor. There is an issue with letting the houses deal with pirate strikes. The SL had to keep up appearances that they were the ones protecting all the people, otherwise, the call for increasing house units would have been overwhelming. The main thought here is if the SL can't keep them safe, then they need their own forces in greater numbers in order to do so. It would also have a side effect of the houses being able to cut back on funding as well as resources being sent to the SL. The pleasure palaces was not mean to be a main way of getting the tech, but just another option to be used. The CC would probably not want to be shown in the SL council as having people in situations that could be considered black mail material, as it would mean they, as a whole, could not be trusted. After the SL fell, then it might be more desirable, as the government could become more of a dictatorship without the SL breathing down their necks. And with the SL looking for violations to a lot of things, this is just one more thing to want to avoid, lest they look even harder. The idea of using public refueling facilities comes from the fact that if you have a dozen warships in the area, and they do not refuel or even worse, get damaged and repaired in a short time in that area, the locals will know there is something nearby. Hard to keep secret facilities when you do this. Granted the exact location would not be given, but the general knowledge of where the ships don't use public facilities would give you and idea of where to look. This ties in with damage. You do not want to send ships back to Terra, or your secret base to get major repairs done. Time is a big issue here. Yes, you can rely on secret bases a little, but you have to cover it up, with keeping something in the public's eye.
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