ghostrider
05/10/22 11:18 AM
45.51.181.83
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Coupes come from a leader wanting power, and someone with the resources to supply them, backing them up. Things like sending the CEO of a company to the front lines isn't done. The others, including local nobles, that have stock or even a friendly relationship with those people do start things like rebellion, especially when others have the same issue with the nation ruler.
Even the Coordinator and the Chancellor don't have absolute power. This concept seems to be forgotten.
Making money leads to things like selling to all sides of a conflict, as well as beyond the bordering nations. Getting protection from having your assets stolen from all nations, not just the one you are in, allows for more money to be made. For the nation you are HQ'ed in, this is an issue. They do not want you selling to the enemy, yet that is how you make the most money.
I believe almost all of the manufacturers sell to all nations, with the exception of a time of war. An active hot war, as the succession wars never really ended until the clans came.
So angering your lord is done in the name of better profits.
I mistyped about the rich and tech. Most did not do the research to gain tech was supposed to be the point. Not sure why I put in gained. The company owners probably have never worked in the factories they owned.
Reread the statement and the old posts that deal with clan tech and why it wasn't done in the game. We know they didn't want the powerful tech in the IS so they could more easily attack the nations with junk without having to come up with yet another super enemy, which they tried to use the WOB for. But then the tech was known by the governments, or at least some of them, and not handed out to manufacturers in the IS.
When you are driving to destroy an enemy quickly, and have to go great distances to reach their capital, you are not worried so much about the factories and infrastructure you need to destroy to do so. You blow up everything the enemy can use against you and move on. You are on a time limit, and can't worry about the future like that.
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Karagin
05/10/22 03:32 PM
70.118.172.64
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Yes, total war means just that. Everything is a target. That was the First and Second Wars. After that well there wasn't much really left to destroy.
Tech is going to wane and wax. That has happened throughout history, sometimes new things are "found" or "made" or they are old things re-invented or given new life with more modern touches added to them.
A ruler can think they have total and complete power, but if they aren't the ones moving the daily bureaucracy along, then they don't have 100% complete and true power, someone else has to make their decrees happen. If folks won't do it or do it super slowly then that is very telling on who has the power in a House.
The WOB was a joke, a villain from WISH DOT COM. The new breed of TPTB wanted things cleaned up and they had to make the new owners happy by mixing in their click-based sci-fi game. So instead of a well done decent attempt at a Firth Succession War, we got the mess that was the Jihad, and the fact that someone at FANPRO/WizKids sold the idea that we the fans would buy a sourcebook that pages of wiggles and binary and needless silliness really got one over on the company because sadly we did.
Much of the tech that is now common in the Inner Sphere should be on its way to the scrap yards or back to the arenas of Solaris VII.
The manufacturers will sell to all sides, they have no real allegiance to any House, now some might not sell during the war to a certain House, but that is about it. Profit over House Loyalty is their main motto. This is why we should see more from these manufacturers and others since they are the ones that allow the Houses to remain at war.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/10/22 04:24 PM
45.51.181.83
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What supports the companies selling to everyone is those companies that span multiple nations. They do not say that a mech is only made in the CC, so it is not available for sale elsewhere. Earthworks is one that works in multiple nations.
For all the mechs Defiance puts out, do you think they sell only to the LC? Even before the merger, they were selling to others. If they only sold to the LC, then they would have taken over the government, or broke. A few mechs would be house only, such as the Zeus. But look at what each house makes and notice some mechs are in their general line up, yet not made in that nation.
The total war statement is great. It should solve that discussion. I agree that it means destruction of anything that could be an issue.
Profit is a large part of selling to all, but security comes into effect as well. Having friends in other nations means your company is less likely to be hit with a major destructive raid. It also means the nation hosting your facilities are going to have some issues if they decide to annex your business.
As Karagin stated, the manufacturers allow their lords to do their wars. This means defense as well as offense. Upset them, and you might find they had some major mechanical issues, so your new company wasn't complete on time. Sad that you lost a world from it, but you will buy more mechs to get it back. (See the irony here?)
So let's talk about that tax raise on the company again.
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Karagin
05/10/22 06:00 PM
70.118.172.64
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Nowhere does it say the companies are limited because we know some mechs are built on different planets by different companies, Wolverine and a few others come to mine.
Issues come up when the newer TROs hint that only certain Houses have certain mechs, now while they may have the majority of those mechs, sales to other nations and mercs would still happen. No security comes in having plants on as many worlds as you can. That way you don't lose everything from bad choices, war, legal issues, etc...
I see can many companies doing that, oh hey you need mechs we gotcha..
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/10/22 06:24 PM
101.185.82.214
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Coups
They are also instituted to replace an incompetent leader who many believe is leading the state to ruin, or to remove a tyrannical leader.
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Even the Coordinator and the Chancellor don’t have absolute power.
Can you provide examples?
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Making money leads to things like selling to all sides of a conflict, as well as beyond the bordering nations.
Sorry but this is not the only case of increasing revenue. Another method is where a business expands its target market base, such as establishing a new business on a new world and thereby expanding their number of clients.
Question does your company have an export license or is this an illegal transaction?
As a competent auditor (investigator) with the tax department will have questions for the Board on an individual and corporation basis as to the source of the wealth – a competent accountants can only hide this for so long.
I would also like to point out, however, that certain military industrial corporations already have branches in other successor states so the idea that multinationals exist within the game.
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The succession wars never really ended until the Clans came.
This is however incorrect as rather than becoming First Lord through war many were scheming to find a loophole within the charter of the new Star League to ensure the post (voted by all members of the New Star League) can become permanent for life of the office holder – Katherine Steiner-Davion as an example.
Also, the story, post 3039 is in my opinion, off the rails from that point on … as well as the majority of history prior to approximately 3000 has a multitude of cringe worthy events that make no to little sense.
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So angering your lord is done in the name of better profits.
Two things occur in a feudal society at this point – the CEO has a ‘medical condition’ and is found deceased or two the business is nationalised, and the former board is replaced with government appointed individuals who understand their duty (prior to the former board members wealth and titles are stripped from them and prior to their investiture within the military in a high-risk operation where they can find redemption in a battlefield death).
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company owners probably have never worked in the factories they owned.
True, however, the more competent owners do have an insightful understanding of their business practices (including manufacturing) so as to identify waste / opportunities – ensure they can maximise profits – identify where new R&D can improve their business.
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the tech was known by the governments, or at least some of them, and not handed out to manufacturers in the IS.
So let me get this straight, governments officials are actively sabotaging their own military and their own House’s ability to stage an effective counter-attack (and in all likelihood survive) to retake lost territory to the Clans because they believe it will be a fiscal burden on the economy - is this correct?
So can we say 3rd column defeatists, quislings as well as Vichy? Also, if this is the case, then why did USA initiate Trinity due to massive R&D cost?
Sorry, but once again this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever from any logical point.
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You blow up everything the enemy can use against you and move on.
How did that work out of Napoleon on his march into Russia? Or the Germans in WW2?
Extensive supply lines are a recipe for disaster unless you can “live off the land” and use everything local, including factories and infrastructure, to assist with forward momentum.
Example the Clans acquiring IS military industrial facilities and re-tooling them to meet clan requirements so as to supplement their consumable requirements due to a vast (distance and time) logistics supply line… that was never taken advantage of and makes no sense whatsoever.
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Everything is a target.
Problem, not everything of significance on every world was destroyed – how many worlds were never attacked during the First and Second Succession Wars? Therefore, their underlying technology, their libraries, schools, and Universities, businesses, and infrastructure remain intact.
Also, ‘Total War’ means converting your entire production infrastructure as well as all your employees throughout your realm towards a war footing – so where is the massive increase in military production numbers (as seen during America WW2)?
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total and complete power
Suggest reading about the Soviet Government during Stalin’s reign and how his lackies were used to ensure his total and complete power over the Soviet people.
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WOB
The only positive was their technology – that in all rights should have been used against the Clans when rather than killing off one clan was used against all IS clans to kick them out of the IS and initiate a war within the deep periphery.
Other than that, the jihad era and everything post this era is a very sick joke that should have been consigned to the waste bin!
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Profit over House Loyalty
If this was the case, then the majority of the military industrial complex would have been nationalized by the state.
As a ruler and their realm cannot survive and prosper for very long if the military industrial complex is disloyal to their ruler and their state during the many centuries of war!
Stories involving disloyal military industrial complex CEOs however may prove a little dull for many of the readers, even with battles – business guard Vs the state as by this point in time the business will fall and the CEO will be found and executed for treason against the realm.
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Earthwerks Incorporated and Defiance Industries
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Earthwerks_Incorporated
“During the Succession Wars, the five Successor States took control of the local branches of Earthwerks, essentially converting one large company into five smaller ones.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Defiance_Industries
Can you please point out where it is written that Defiance sells its wares to non Lyran / Federated Commonwealth government clients?
Do they have a showroom on Solaris perhaps, also when did they acquire a foreign export license?
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Having friends in other nations means your company is less likely to be hit with a major destructive raid.
No, in all reality both the rules of war should keep your business safe in addition to the future requirements of the invading force to utilize your business for their own logistics requirements.
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… the manufacturers allow their lords to do their wars.
Who hols the whip handle in these realms? Rather than writing about Victor and Katherine, then the books should be more about some nameless individual in a board room discussing how they manipulate the house lords for their own nefarious profit driven aims …
Something like ComStar or a more accurate description can be seen in the Books / Anime Legend of the Galactic Heroes – The Dominion of Phezzan provides an excellent example of how economic might is used and how in all reality it is fragile when compared to military power.
In all reality if a CEO and board attempt to undermine their liege lord you had better consider the Barons at Runnymede.
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you might find they had some major mechanical issues … sad that you lost a world from it
Sad to say a Loki operatives assassinated the entire Board and then the Liege Lord transferred the business to another …or was assimilated into the state lock stock and barrel.
So yes, let us talk about the company tax rate and who is subordinate to who.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/10/22 11:15 PM
45.51.181.83
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Coups are done when ever someone thinks they can get away with it. More then enough times, the person trying to get power is just as bad or worse then those they are trying to replace.
Try reading the fluff of the books. Several coordinators could not just wipe out the disloyal generals, and the Chancellor has had similar problems. So they pit their subordinates against each other to avoid them ganging up on the leaders.
Funny how the investigators tend to have new expensive toys or get hit during a raid, and licenses get issued to those with money. Even the leaders get gifts to sidestep legal problems, though I don't know if it is illegal. The General Estates in the LC as well as the Parliment in the FWL would have more then a few that would go against the leaders when it suited them. A few million C-bills tends to do that. Might need 10s of millions, but its the same thing as today.
Again, get your time line straight. The 2nd SL happened AFTER the clans invaded. And Katherine never was first lord. So start reading canon properly, as the statements are heading back to alt, not canon.
Even during the times of the crazy leaders, seizing companies in ones realm was not done often. You start doing that, and all the companies decide to let you rot until you make it up to them. Worlds will side with companies as they are next to have their items seized. And this begins the rebellions that tear nations apart.
The bs with the clan tech being known and said was too expensive to be used was discussed before and few didn't say it was complete crap. Some of the tech would be used, and the prices would come down. Double sinks being a main one. The less crit taking ones, as opposed to the SL version. There is a lot more, but that one is almost a must.
The only tech that might have been needed to be taken from the Huntress is making the half weight missile launchers.
Might need to actually look at the game simplicity first. ACs made by different nations should not use the same ammo made by others. So a DC AC 20 should not be able to use the AC 20 ammo made by the FS. They do the same damage, but the bores and number of shots are different. Part of why the weapons don't fit into the other nations mechs without needing some modifications. A huge reason why Omni tech came about. The 20 ammo ranges from 185 to 200 MM in diameter. They state that in one of the books, and it is also in the TROs as well. This is why I was bringing up points about how the clan weapons keep the greater range when using IS ammo.
This makes the company more money, as you have to buy their ammo to work in their weapons.
Is that why the game states many things like universities were destroyed in the wars? Knowledge was targeted as well as the manufacturing plants were. If you want to win, you have to be the only one that can continue the war. That means only your loyal forces can build those weapons.
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ghostrider
05/10/22 11:36 PM
45.51.181.83
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Funny. A leader making sure only they control things so the masses can't revolt? Sounds like destroying everything, so you don't have to waste man power protecting it. And it was enemy territory, it isn't like your people have to suffer for it.
Did I miss something? How is it the WOB tech should have been used against all the clans? They didn't participate in the clan war, and even went so far as to hit Comstar while they were fighting the clans. WOB was developing weapon systems to take out Comstar and all those that oppose the WOB. Why would it even be mentioned for taking out the clans? Still don't see that tech is not owned by all? Just a certain few, and they decide how to use it.
You want my factory? Try to run it when it is rubble. I will make sure you do NOT gain anything from the seizure, if possible. I will also make sure the tech you need to build my product is destroyed as well. Does that sound like a good reason so avoid upsetting company owners?
And their friends in the high government will help them resist any such bs. You will have a huge revolt on your hands if you try. The FS got away with it, only because Federated-Boeing had refused to support the defense of the nation. It was not done to prevent them from profiting from sales.
Before the merger, Defiance would not have been able to sell enough mechs to the LC to continue to expand. There are mechs that were sold to other nations. It was probably done thru third person deals, like the Kincaid deal with the CC. But I am sure the sales people from Defiance knew that ahead of time. The Atlas being one that would have been sold to others, as the DC did not have huge numbers being produced.
Rules of war? It appears you don't understand the rules of war. Only the victor gets to make what is right and wrong from a war. And in the war for total supremacy, destruction of the enemy's ability to fight is a prime target. ALL sides 'forgot' the rules of war in the first 2 succession wars. Nukes being the foremost, but not the only thing.
This is true when it is win or die.
Do you really think the archon told the Brewers they had to do things a certain way? Loki, and a few other agencies tried to remove heads of Defiance more then a few times. You don't think Fredrick didn't try in order to prevent them from helping Katrina over throw him? Or Ryan didn't try to get someone more sympathetic to his cause in office? Chandy himself went against the wishes of the Coordinator a few times. General Sandavol did the same thing a few times. It was only when he failed to take out the Dragoons, did Takashi finally remove him. Again. It is written in the game.
Oh yeah. Some mechs are sold across the border, as merc units buy them, and the sales agent KNOWs they are in a hostile realm.
As the only manufacturing company making the Awesome was the FWL, how do you think other nations got brand new units, not taken on the fields.
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Karagin
05/11/22 02:17 AM
70.118.172.64
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The idea is that the Inner Sphere SHOULD be reverse-engineering as much Clan tech as they can. And the silly line from the original TRO3050 was a bad call by TPTB at the time. It was there to keep folks from asking why haven't the Inner Sphere pushing their own versions. And what did folks ask? When will Inner Sphere catch up to the Clans or pass them...and we got the silliness of acid guns, and nail guns for mechs. Total crap. I will call it as I see it. Everything from chemical lasers to variable damage lasers to all other "lasers" is pure silliness.
The Inner Sphere should have been working to make versions of Clan armor, engines, etc....and we see some of that but then it's treated like total failures while nail guns and the rest get all the use or oh we need claws and spikes on mechs, and everything has to have TSM, this is a game about lances and higher sized forces fighting other similar units right? Not mechs fighting like Pro-Wrestlers. Yet again TPTB seemed to think that going that route was needed because it was too hard to give the Inner Sphere weapons just a few steps done from the Clans, instead we get WWF/WWE tossed in because that's what fans want.
And weapons will be different, but in-game terms the weapons all have similar stats, and a machine gun is a machine gun. Lasers made on Davion world might have a bit better heat to damage ratio but overall, they don't outperform the others so their stats would be the same as the other companies making medium lasers as far as the game goes.
Yes, victors write the history books and the losers of war are going to be demonized far more than they are during the war and it has been a common thing for man since Saron conquered the city-states of Mesopotamia. Not to go political, but morality doesn't win a war. And the only reason the Inner Sphere put rules in place is that many saw how insane things could get.
So the Ares Convention comes along, but like all of the other Conventions, it's given lip service and then ignored the second the bullets fly by all sides. Then here is a rub, did all the powers of the Inner Sphere sign it? Did all the mega-corporations sign it? How about those merc units? Oh they didn't, well then the Convention doesn't apply to them, thus they don't have to follow it or honor it.
All the minor nobles doing their own things should have and still should be fully explored and used for plotlines, but I doubt we will see much of that beyond what's needed to push the major storyline along, and these new minors will be tossed aside and left dangling in the wind like all the other ones.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/11/22 06:12 AM
101.185.82.214
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The Coup … characters must be based on a situational basis …
Try understanding the culture, there is nothing stopping an order given by the “Coordinator”, where you are extended the honour of death at you’re your own hand. Once initiated it cannot be interrupted for any reason …
Money does not always equate to privilege, to sidestep the legality of an issue within a feudal society, money usually requires familial obligation – more often than not it either brings glory or infamy, followed by a short and violent life.
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as this statements are heading back to alt, not canon
Try re-reading this once more – Katherine’s aim was to infuriate her brother Victor with her nomination of Liao, leaving her as the only rational alternative. Her machination at this stage was to find a loophole, whereby she would be the first to be nominated as First Lord for Life … it was only thwarted when Victor was able to see through her plan at one minute to midnight and confirm Liao as First Lord.
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crazy leaders, seizing companies
Castro and Cuba? … and every time a planet which holds a company, owned by a regional lord, is conquered by another House the ownership is thus transferred to whom?
What happens, also, to a Lord’s property if said Lord is found guilty of treason to the state … confiscation of property at the start.
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The only tech that might have been needed to be taken from huntress is making the half weight missile launchers
Sorry but the correct answer is EVERYTHING a complete copy of all technology as well as everything that is nailed down and can fit in a dropship for the return journey as well as a legion of former clansmen who will become the new teachers throughout the Inner Sphere.
An example – Medical knowledge why would anyone give up on the chance of increasing their advanced medical knowledge?
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ACs made by different nations should not use the same ammo made by others.
Question how long would it take to retool an ammunition facility so that it will be able to manufacture consumables specific for your needs in comparison to the time it takes for a requisition to be sent back to the Clan Home Worlds … which will then be needed to be completed … then sent by Jump-ship back to the Inner Sphere and finally catch up with your unit on the front line?
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That means only your loyal forces can build those weapons.
This will require the destruction of every world throughout the entire IS, where every building that maintains knowledge and technology has been reduced to rubble. How can anyone say that everything has been destroyed?
Sorry but this is a statistical impossibility – as during the Succession Wars how often were the Capitol worlds of each state destroyed.
Also the weapons manufacturing plant of Defiance – wouldn’t they have their own library and training facilities to ensure manufacturing is maintained to a high level just as every manufacturing facility has – so how did this information just disappear overnight?
Suggest viewing the film – Things to come, the 1936 British B&W science fiction film. However just like this film if one group retains their knowledge and technology, they will take over all others in their path in short order. It demonstrates how the basic battleTech tenant is quite ludicrous.
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… and it was enemy territory, it isn’t like YOUR people have to suffer for it.
What is the aim of the game? Answer To become First Lord over the entire IS … so what does this mean … you are attempting to rule over the entirety of the Inner Sphere and the peoples therein.
… so what this means is that as you conquer a world their people cease being the enemy and are automatically recognised as citizens of their new House … so by conquering a world through mass destruction this will just lead to a massively expensive repair build and at the same time multiple generations of partisans fighting the status quo.
Great work … you have now conquered a massive problem that will require a massive garrison and police force to maintain the peace over multiple generations as your forces are viewed as wanton destroyers and murderers rather than as liberators.
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How is it the WOB tech should have been used against the clans?
Simple it really was not hard to understand their overall aim… in a post reformation where ComStar and WOB have split into two factions either Marik or Katherine should have nominated for their inclusion into the Star League – they would have then been so overjoyed at this as it was fulfilling prophesy that they would have unveiled their new military …. The Manei Domini, who were established with one aim in mind to Liberate Holy Inner Sphere from the barbarian hordes of the Clans and thus post clan free Inner Sphere be in a position to return the Inner Sphere to Blakean Theocracy where WOB are the protectors of the inner sphere (a new SLDF).
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You want my factory?
One day judiciary agents will just walk in and take it over – all accounts frozen – former CEO will no longer be allowed on the premises. So it is not like the former CEO will even have a chance. Also if the CEO did go down this path I hope they like the next 50 years inside looking out on every charge imaginable.
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Defiance would not have been able to sell enough mechs to the LC
Can I laugh now, as the Lyran military would have been their only customer.
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Rules of War
You do realize in a M.A.D. war all sides would create the world killer warship class – who’s only function is to kill off all enemy worlds – Hence entire areas of the IS should now be vacant of all life as the worlds within these sectors will be either glowing in the dark for the next thousand or so years or should be a vial plague world where no life can exist due to mass introduction of biological agents that kill off all life they come into contact with.
As this is the only logical conclusion for a war with no rules where you ratchet up the response once after another.
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Do you really think the Archon told the Brewers they had to do things a certain way?
You do not have to tell them they should know implicitly what the Archon wants of them. – increased production number of Mechs … for a start … then an adequate R&D team to improve upon the base model would also be considered … then the ability to manufacture new mechs to meet the requirements of military procurement …
Just for starters it is not that difficult to understand.
Also if you really want someone gone it can be done … Dancing Joker … Minoru Kurita … Again it is written in the game.
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Some Mechs are sold across the border
Mercenary units selling to other Mercenary Units – the old and tired as well as those captured to supplement their income – in an age where Mercs exist they will need access to 2nd rate weapon systems otherwise what is the point of even having mercenaries to begin with?
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Awesome
Old Models – as the production year is 2665 – produced prior to Amaris Civil War – so how many SLDF bunkers were raided and an Awesome was found inside and has been with that particular House’s military ever since?
New Models – Nil – not unless you take it from the Battlefield as they remain within the House that built them.
Or due to the treaty signed FC and CC/DC/FWL there could have been a clause that would allow for cross border purchases of military hardware.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/11/22 11:00 AM
45.51.181.83
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Situational basis? When does someone hungry for power need a reason? They strike when they feel they have a shot. Tends to be why a lot of them fail.
Until you read the actual printed materials, best to just make notes and keep them quiet. Clan tech was already known to most of the houses before Huntress. The non military tech may not have been, but that is not ALL the tech. I want to say most medical tech was about the same level as the IS, with maybe regeneration being the one out.
Yeah. How long does it take to retool your ammunition factories to produce ammo that comes from the enemy, and stop making the ammo that works in your weapons, while in the middle of a war? It is stupid to think you will recover enough of the enemy's weapons to really need to bother. That means you are not blitzkrieging thru the enemy trying to end the war quickly.
The aim of the game is for players to use stompy mechs to win battles. They will NEVER attain First Lord, so that vision is only seen by you. The first lord position died with Richard, and should remain dead. Starting a new dynasty would be the rulers vision. Not reviving a dead entity that fell under it's own failures.
Yeah. You just nuked your own people. The combatants of the 1st and 2nd succession wars, even the Amaris war, were nothing more then things preventing your victory by being in the way. Even with the increased number of ships, the military was not going to sideline ships in order to make sure each new world was kept to proper levels of food, water and basic necessities. This would cut into their supplies for keeping the army fed and moving. See the simple necessity of war?
Assumptions abound. WOB had no intention of ever getting into a war with the clans until their enemies were defeated, or they were attacked directly. If anything, they would have done like Walterly and allowed the clans to distract the FC and DC while they gained more power to finally take down Comstar and a few others. Then, as the Blake vision stated, ride out like the knights of old and save everyone. The unsaid part being they would take over completely.
Did you not say that increasing profits means selling to any you can? Do you think the LC was the only customer Defiance had? The whole Kincaid scenario was based on the fact that it was only after SL tech came out, that the LC banned all sales to Liao that was high tech. It was not the first and only time Defiance sold to the CC.
And we know Defiance sold lots of units to mercs,
Like it or not, the use of nukes for the opening and continued phases of the wars starting with the Amaris war, was used. At the point the SL fell, all knew the coming fights was a fight for survival. Not gain lands, though that was the story told to their people, but they knew the other leaders would be looking to kill the nation. Simple logic here. As basic as it gets. Once the smoke cleared, then you deal with winning the hearts of the enemy population.
So if the governments wanted more mechs, why didn't they just build the factories themselves? Seize all the ones in operation and expand them with the unlimited funds and resources they could bring about? It would remove things like supply problems and such as the government could just invoke war status on things. There is nothing shown that they even considered state funded factories to do this.
What? Cross border sales of unit? You said that didn't happen. And new units were sold across the borders between the SL time and the FC merger. New Awesomes were used in all realms, including the CC. They were not numerous, but they were there. This is true of most mechs. A very few were nation restricted. The Zeus being a major one. The Vindicator being another. The Valkyrie yet another. But that did not stop the sales of other units.
One major example of cross border sales is the Monolith Jumpship. The DC owned about half of them, and to suggest the FS just allowed them to steal those ships by boarding actions is far fetched.
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Karagin
05/11/22 03:15 PM
70.118.172.64
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So basically Meatloaf is what's wrong with the Inner Sphere, got it.
Anyway, one reason the Houses don't take over the factories is that it means production would slow down since the factories are now part of the bureaucracy. The ammo thing, they would make some things, or they would rechamber the weapons if they can to their own calibers used by their side. Won't be the first time, I can give an excellent example of a 76.2mm AT GUN, both the Germans and Russians used the SAME gun, the Germans after they captured hundreds of them, and the ammo, found that they liked it and started making their own ammo. So they were basically using their enemy's weapon as their own.
Maybe if folks would read Objective Raids (yes and now I have the "newer" takes on that amazing book) they would see that many mega-corporations have spread ALL over the Inner Sphere. IF I am selling one of my homemade mechs aka Renegade (65-ton take off the Exterminator) for example, and my company wanted to expand the sales market, then I would be offering to every House, Merc, Perphiery and private security, etc...and I would then sell an upgrade to whichever House that the main HQ is in.
Nukes should never have been allowed to be used by us the players, they should have remained in the hands of the PTB. That way when and if they are used it's for dramatic effect or the need is there for something major to change the complete course of things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/11/22 06:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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Yeah, you can make the ammo. But when you are putting out the ammo your units use, you are not going to just stop to make ammo an enemy weapon uses. But this is a side point.
The 1st war had a lot of units invading each other, and they would not leave manufacturers running that made ammo for the enemy, if they didn't use it themselves.
The idea that nukes should never be in the hands of players, and only in the hands of the governments is a no brainer. Where this takes an odd turn is when someone thinks nukes should never be allowed in the game. Railing against the clans challenges, then thinks all fights need to be sterile like them, shows a problem. Orbital bombardment is almost as bad, though it doesn't normally leave glow in the dark syndrome.
And I thought the problem was Avocado Toast. Then again, defining if Meatloaf is the food or the singer...
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Karagin
05/11/22 07:26 PM
70.118.172.64
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My point with the ammo is it is done, and you are right, if your aim is to break the enemy of their ability to wage war again, then it's total war, sow the ground with salt, reaping a whirlwind of destruction as you move across their planets. IF you will win in the end, well you can always rebuild the planets, or not. Recall many worlds were abandoned because of similar events by the warring Houses. The amount of damage done by the fighting and all that. Or you could capture the factories and have your follow-up troops start to reconfigure them to build your stuff, shorting your supply line issues. That plan takes time and your run the risk of issues if the tides of war turn against you and push you back.
Certain things that change the course of a game's setting are things left up to TPTB. Now having said that, a one-off adventure for the player characters to take a stronghold or invade a world to stop the use of a nuke or to capture something major needed to produce whatever the doomsday weapon is, is different, because each of us could run the same scenario adventure and get different outcomes. So it's more a moot point.
Orbital bombardment, that is artillery for the most part. However, if it's used every turn then why even worry about playing? Slag the planet, move to the next, do it again, and keep moving. Boring. Having it there as something that a commander can use, is fine, limiting it to hitting in 10 turns or something like that makes more sense, and then only for one map board. Oh you rolled and well sorry your bombardment hit the 3 miles to the east of your intended target, sorry about that. Crappy dice rolls and all. It shouldn't get same turn plotted and lands the same turn or even the next. There will be a delay.
Meatloaf can be what ever you want. It's still the issue.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/11/22 10:39 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Situational basis?
Cursory analysis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
Quote:
Medical Technology
Consider pg 58 of House Steiner
The Martin Luther Memorial Hospital – “knowledge of how to use much of the elaborate medical machinery has long been lost”.
Wouldn’t it be reasonable therefore for someone to expect that with all available information on hand that a Clans medical team could have been seconded to undertake training at key medical facilities to fill in what has been lost?
Quote:
ammunition facilities
So once an enemy ammunition manufacturing plant is captured , it is decided to just not bother with retooling it – as it is more efficient to assume that the Ammunition Logistics Chain, all the way from the Clan Home Worlds, is more efficient when it comes to suppling adequate resources, despite the fact that the Jump time is 6 months there and 6 months back. Is this correct?
Quote:
You just nuked your own people
No, the enemy did … as the war has no rules, M.A.D. is no n effect, my forces were obliterating all known enemy worlds that are habitable, thus reducing their ability to keep proper food, water and basic necessities, that would cut into their supplies for keeping their army fed and moving … thus a simple necessity of war.
Problem is whist I am doing this to my enemy they are doing it to me, but who cares as there are no rules to war and sowing the ground with salt is a viable tactic to killing off the enemy once and for all!
SATIRE
Quote:
WOB had no intention of ever getting into a war with the clans
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Manei_Domini
“These forces were initially raised, trained, and equipped for a genocidal showdown with the Clans …”
Also consider https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tharkad
“when the Second Star League dissolved in 3067 on Tharkad, the Word immediately went on the offensive. They saw the Federated Suns and the Lyran Alliance as the culprits … The Blakists attempted to cow Lyran Archon Peter Steiner-Davion into returning to the League with a show of force…”
Thus the aim, therefore, was the reformation of the Second Star League ….
Quote:
Foreign Arms Sales
Why would any Government assist their enemy (for the past hundreds of years) with an arms package?
Quote:
the use of nukes
Its simple logic to obliterate everything with nukes and then expect people to forgive and forget and become your allies once the dust clears?
Justice, therefore, means nothing …
Quote:
There is nothing shown that they even considered state funded factories to do this.
Except for the fact that the Steiner Family holds a significant percentage of Defence Industry Stock – as it is the Steiner Family who appoint the CEO.
So rather than build factories themselves the Steiner family decide to go into partnership.
Or Norse-Storm Technologies Inc. – “With substantial loans from the Lyran government and aid of business partner Samuel Norse, the factory was eventually brought back online …”
Quote:
what? Cross border sales of unit? You said that didn’t happen.
What was written was that with the formation of CC/DC/FWL alliance, in a show of good faith, between members they allowed the sale to bolster their overall position to survive a combined attack by FS/LC, just as occurs now between security partners.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/11/22 11:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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Is there a price chart for common items? Like video machines (aka TVs), computers, phones, guns, food, etc...?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/12/22 02:23 AM
45.51.181.83
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Do you understand the concept of blitzkrieg? You hit everything you can and continue on with the push. Capture factories? Normally they are blow apart by explosives, such as artillery and canon shells. Even air drops will work. We are talking the 1st and 2nd succession wars. Not the clans trials of possession.
From most of what is published, the clans medical tech isn't much higher then the IS tech. Regeneration being the main exception.
Your statement: … so what this means is that as you conquer a world their people cease being the enemy and are automatically recognised as citizens of their new House.
My response was Yeah. You just nuked your own people.
Then you said No, the enemy did.
Seems to be going back to not reading the responses again. The last statement doesn't make sense given the context of the discussion there.
Given the fact that WOB had the forces to go after the clans no matter if the rest of the IS didn't shows the lie to the statement. They could well have started removing the IS clans, then moving to the home worlds. Then they attacked two houses because they left the SL. And wasn't the only reason for the wars was to be the only first lord of the SL? WOB leaders would have done the very thing you keep telling all were doing. Waging war to become the first lord. And what happened? OH yeah, WOB went the nuclear route as well as Amaris. Funny that it wasn't against the clans, but the IS, including the DC and CC. So yeah. They were made to fight the clans.
Was the governments of the IS in control of the manufacturers in their realms? No. Private citizens were. And they were out to make money. Selling weapons to a hostile nation means the nation they are in will have to buy more weapons, meaning you make even more money. And before the FC came about, supplying the enemy of my enemy, helped remove my enemy. Even if they did nothing but sit in place, the enemy had to keep forces split so each border was protected.
Nukes are used not to make allies, but to kill any that oppose you. So no allies, just dead enemies. It is a simple concept.
By the way, the 1st and 2nd succession wars were not about taking territory, but about making the enemy leaders dead. And scaring anyone else so they don't try to resist you. Pretty much, I will rule the world, even if it means I am the only one left in it.
Not a good way to think, but it is not as rare as it should be.
You mean the hereditary leader of the LC has stock in the largest manufacturer in the IS? And yet that would mean the Steiners would side with making money at the expense of the population of the realms, as they shifted the blame on others? And this coming from a realm of money buys power and prestige, like the social generals? So the LC government was more corrupt then the others. Good to know.
The merger time being the only time most cross borders sales were severely restricted, except times of active fighting, the rest of the time had companies selling stuff to other nations. Part of why having a border that touches Terra was necessary. It was the only real area that you could ship things thru and not get hit constantly. The two realms across the IS from the seller were sold to. Example would be the LC sold to the FS and CC. It would keep pressure on the DC and FWL.
And after the 4th war, sales to the FWL and CC resumed, though not so much for the CC. The next war was against the DC mainly. So sales still existed during that. The clans changed this.
And government loans is not the same thing as owning the company. If it was, then most companies would not exist anymore.
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Requiem
05/12/22 05:13 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Blitzkrieg – you hit everything
I wonder how many actually understand Blitzkrieg (Clan assault within the Inner Sphere) – it is winning by not fighting …
Suggest watching the following to understand …
https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-german-lightning-war-strategy-of-the-second-world-war
in which IWM’s John Delaney explains the three key ingredients for any successful Blitzkrieg:
- speed of movement – keep moving, always look for the weak spot
- speed of decision making, and – apply maximum pressure at a single point as quickly as possible
- an overconfident enemy – cut communication to promote uncertainty
and I wonder how many understand how to defeat Blitzkrieg – through production and shear weight of numbers.
Quote:
medical tech
And yet they should understand how to operate Star League Era Medical Technology – that can then be returned to surgeries etc. throughout the inner sphere to assist with medical care, thus providing life saving care.
Quote:
the last statement
Winning a war does not have to achieved through the use of mass wanton destruction of civilian property.
A soldier does not revel in the death and destruction of civilians and their property.
A soldier considers military targets only and the minimisation of loss of life
Thus, at the end there is a minimalistic approach to war to ensure when the planet transfers its allegiance it is dome with all due care to ensure its people are well respected and the right of law is maintained.
You must consider the juxtaposition of time before and after – and then also consider the semantics of what is being discussed.
Quote:
WOB forces … lie to the statement
WOB forces were to be the Second Star League’s SLDF spear point … I thought that was obvious.
And yet what was written was the worst diatribe against the BattleTech universe … it is no wonder it is so loathed.
Quote:
they could have started removing the IS Clans
Then what was their assault upon Wolf’s Dragoons all about?
They saw the Dragoons as fifth column that had to be removed …
Quote:
WOB … waging war to become First Lord
Hardly, they wanted to be First Templar Master of the Star League. They wanted the Star League to return so that a crusade could be waged in the name of Holy Blake to rid the IS of all Clan impurities.
Quote:
control of manufacturers
How much influence does an ordinary shareholder have in a corporation – Nil – power is derived by maintaining a majority of the vote or enough voted to hold a position on the board to sway the members of other board members.
So unless a majority of the shareholders can come together and there is room due to he number of shares the institutional shareholders have the ordinary shareholders view will never have the power to reform the corporation.
Quote:
prolific use of nukes
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king!
Quote:
… the 1st and 2nd succession wars were not about taking territory, but about making the enemy leaders dead.
So how did that strategy work out? Within the first five minutes it should have been realized that this current strategy was a dud, as only the king of all fools would have considered such an implausible strategy where a ruler with a mobile HPG could be anywhere within their realm (including hidden worlds) and still maintain contact with their military and civilian chain of command.
Quote:
I will rule the (Inner Sphere) even if it means I am the only one left in it.
So M.A.D. war of attrition using planet killers to ensure the genocide of the species … the Nero Doctrine …
Quote:
Steiner would side with making money …
This is where the TPTB who wrote the initial books created an interesting situation … in a normal universe any sales to non Lyran military customers would have required a sales permit provided by the Steiner Government to ensure they are not sold to the wrong purchases …. As how would it look if the USA began selling its most advanced fighters to those countries that it considers they will be hostile in the future.
Allowing free trade with no restrictions (including military hardware) in an era of almost constant war it is a wonder how their inept governments were able to survive given the ineptitude of current non-policies.
Quote:
Government Loans
Used as an economic tool to increase production, decrease unemployment and hopefully decrease Inflation (used to support economic recovery) – also remember to consider the collateral for a loan in the event the Business is unable to repay – it is not like the USA Lemon laws or the Toxic Debt of a House.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/12/22 10:38 AM
70.118.172.64
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IF I conquer a planet, the citizens of that world are still a threat until they learn how to live within the culture and government I bring with me. Now, it also means I have to protect them, but it doesn't mean there is trust; it will be several generations till there is full trust. Most worlds on the borders of a star nation will have traded hands several times. The population will be hostile regardless because of the last round of fighting and all the raiding etc...it will take time to make them loyal citizens.
WoB storyline was if you believe the silliness, to fight the Clans and wipe them out. That was their sole purpose, or so TPTB have tried to claim at one point, then they said it was one of their goals and then the way to justify their turning on the Inner Sphere as a whole. That turning is coming with the new Star League being disbanded. Lots of issues with WoB and their miraculous rise to military prowess. Honestly, I think that whole storyline did more damage to the IP than anything else.
Not sure why having a family stake in a company would automatically mean anything. I see, though, that reading the background information and understanding it are two different things for many.
The Clans only changed how sales went. They didn't stop companies from playing games or House vs. House politics from having sanctions. While some would sell to all during the early years of the Clan invasion, others would see the Fed-Com and Combine as needing more mechs, etc...and willing to pay more. In contrast, the CapCon and FWL weren't under attack and thus wouldn't buy as much under the new prices. That doesn't mean they didn't buy mechs, etc...it means they weren't buying whole runs of a unit, regardless of what it was. For example, say that the CapCon needs new Whitworths. They have two choices to get them. One is to buy them from the Lyrans, or the second is from the Combine. Both need to replenish their ranks, but this is a Whitworth. It may not be a high priority mech for those two nations, so they may both sell to the CapCon, but the prices will be higher than before. Or they may go with the idea, let's unload all the older junk (now, where has this happened before, I wonder) and sell them to the CapCon at cost or just below. Sales happen, but then the CapCon attacks the St. Ives Compact, and that causes the Combine to not ship the mechs because old Theodore says not to. Yet the Lyrans still end theirs. So the CapCon is pissed, and the Combine has mechs that aren't doing them much, so they can re-sell them to merc units or others who need them. Or in six months, when things change again politically, send them on to the CapCon. But again, it's not a high priority given that new tech versions are going to the front-line units, not being sold to others.
The other wrinkle in this is that the FWL makes kits of higher-tech refits for mechs; now that's cool. However, it would be kits for mechs they have access to and can make INSIDE their own borders. Recall not every house has a plant that makes every mech. So upgrade kits for Jenners won't be coming from the FWL. And before anyone says they were selling weapons packages based on weight classes, that was NEVER stated in any sourcebook or novel. So let's be honest and look at the actual landscape of how the manufacturing system of the Inner Sphere is set up. The FWL would not have a kit for every mech, thus it would not be able to offer upgrades for the Whitworth or Jenner or Valkyre or others.
The FWL, unlike the CapCon, did make many mechs that the Fed-Com and Combine use a lot of and would need tons of spare parts and new machines to replace losses. That means they could raise prices and use that war to get a lot of profits, but that would also mean they would not be selling as much to the FWL military as they would normally. No company is going to turn down the chance to make money. Oh, yeah sorry but the Fed-Com market is paying 8% higher per unit than you (the FWL military) and we already sent you the agreed number of units. What's that you want more, well at a 10% higher price point per unit, we could send the next two runs to you, oh you will take them, excellent.
There will always be backroom deals going on, the idea that this has been ignored or lost, shows in how one-dimensional the writing is at times.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/12/22 12:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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Forget the clan assault was no where near typical? Comstar feeding them intel on the houses, so they were not bogged down searching for units. Also, the clans did not bother hunting down all units anyways. The took the worlds surrender as the end of the fighting, which was custom in the clans. They were not ready for the gorilla warfare the happened afterwards.
The blitz is to take out the enemy's resources quickly. Capturing them slowed them down. Time is the key.
The 1st and 2nd wars were wars of destruction. Win at all costs. Not sure why this is being argued. Wars do not have to wipe out every last thing. The 3rd war showed this with the 4th war helping support it. The clan invasion was a real kicker to not destroying every last asset. As the conversation was about the destructiveness of the first two wars, along with the need to destroy the enemy's resolve against you, I don't know why it is suggested it didn't happen that way. Survival was the name of the first two wars, as each house was trying to wipe out the governments of the others.
WOB took Terra while Comstar was engaged in the clan invasion. This was for power. They did not engage the clans at any time during the war.
Taking out the Dragoons was done since they opposed WOB for the most part, and they were poised to be a problem if they attacked. It was purging the IS of a valued unit, and removing a thorn. The excuse of them being ex clan was a cover. WOB took out some other mercs along with the Dragoons, that had no clan connections.
Also, WOB formed before the clans showed up so no. They wanted to become the rulers of the IS. The lie they told was the protector garbage. And the question of what would they do when the clans were destroyed. As a side point, they kept control of Terra.
It is assumed that the Stieners were not involved with running Defiance, least they start getting called out and sued for using tax payers money to fund their own coffers. Not like they had much of a choice, as Defiance was the largest producer in the IS, but it would have caused more issues. The Skye Rebellions might have succeeded if this was pushed enough. More people supporting the movement concept.
Ah yes. The problem with Rectonning things in the story. Mobile HPGs. When the story was done, Mobile HPGs were not in the game. Which could be used to support the full destruction of worlds. A single one could rely intel to the enemy, so removing that possibility would well have been argued to continue the nukes.
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Karagin
05/12/22 01:22 PM
70.118.172.64
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Tons of issues with retcons when they are done poorly or mentioned as a passing thing to fix issues, but then not handled right and cause their own issues. It's a problem all IPs have.
The WoB storyline was poorly handled, nothing said by the PTB will ever change that. The amount of damage it did to the fan base hurt the IP, and the amount of personal bias and actions of many who were/are friends with former and current PTB has hurt the IP. Even to this day, the majority of people who once played or knew about the game still believe it's a dead system or living on life support. And no Cray nothing is going to change that premise given the hate that was thrown out by folks Camile, Chunga, and others at fans who disagreed with the storyline and spoke out about it. Those two were buddies with many of TPTB at the time and thus the damage was done. No spin will fix it, and when you add in the forced shoehorning of the Dark Age stuff, well you get a mix of a mess.
Then the retcons we get are an entire TRO that somehow suggests things are sooooooo bad that the Houses are raiding museums for mechs and vehicles to fight with. That makes no sense, given that a display will be de-mil (meaning it has NO functioning parts that would allow it to be used in a fight) and even if say the Bovington Museum on Terra has a working Gladiator or other older mech, doesn't mean it can be taken and made to work, that kind of refit will take years and it could break the machine. Yet we are told differently, we are told that companies were pushing aside proven designs to bring back these retro machines in massive numbers. Not how things work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/12/22 01:25 PM
70.118.172.64
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I am not debating that the 1st and 2nd wars were not total war, they were. My point is they set the stage so to speak for how the Inner Sphere reacts. And the 3rd War was more of shifting borders so as to prevent a repeat of those two wars. The 4th one acted on one thing, one House was falling apart, it had lost too much too quickly over time and was in no shape to handle a real attack. The second part of the 4th War was to give the new superstate breathing room. Both aims were met and thus things went forward.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/12/22 01:36 PM
70.118.172.64
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Another issue the Inner Sphere has to deal with is stagnation. None of the Houses are adding worlds to their control, beyond the few that change hands during the fighting, but that is a small number. We have ALL of the Houses having population issues, yet we don't see any of these concerns dealt with in the fiction.
It would make a lot of sense for the FedSuns to do more exploring on their Periphery border near the Tortorga region, and it gains them three things, pirates and raiders removed, that alone is a win. The second thing, it gains them more resources, you know that old idea of the need to spend to make money to that what you spent is recovered and you gain more over time. (wish CGL would figure that out) And the third reason it removes a lot of population issues. Colonies can feed the growth of the whole. And while it may come to a point they go independent, that is still not as bad as having a major rebellion in your main holding because you couldn't handle the unemployment issues, etc...
The point is that the game HAS a lot of opportunities to expand and still have the mechs fighting mechs. Explorers run across a forgotten Periphery nation, oh they have mechs, they don't care that our mission is to trade and find allies, etc...boom fighting happens, lots of things for folks to get into. And who knows maybe they run across a Snow Raven or Star Adder base that is building a massive fleet and they are forced to flee back to the Inner Sphere...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/12/22 02:27 PM
45.51.181.83
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Not sure of you have Requiem blocked, but from the sounds of the latest responses, I will guess you do. The wars savagery is directed towards that.
There will always be fighting somewhere in the IS.
Even if it is nothing more then local politicians trying to win an 'election', by striking at their opponent, or taking out someone that has grown to big for their britches.
Scenarios like the unit being caught up in a raid that was meant for someone else, like a unit that was just shipped out. Pirates in general. Hired to hunt down a renegade unit. Being made the renegade unit. Guarding or raiding a cargo ship. Some raiding of your sponsor state can be legal. Just make sure the contract is stated correctly.
The dark ages was just a way to send the numbers of forces back to the low end of the spectrum with some sort of reason for it. As the IS was supposed to be advancing in all areas, only another major destructive war would do so, and that is not something the game would survive, or at least what I can see. The ordeal with the FS in the latest version shows just how much they were relying on a boogie man to keep the nations in war.
If not for the civil war saga, the DC would have been in as bad of shape as the CC, even before the 4th war. The influx of clan units and tech would have helped hold it off some, but eventually they would have been squeezed by the LC and FS.
The Civil war was expected, as the economic power and military might would have driven so many raids, it would have been more like a constant war, once the clans were dealt with.
One constant thing that bugged me was how the clans took all new tech and improved it without much time. If this was true, then their own tech should have been much higher then what it was. Or did they have prototypes of that tech ready to go, when the IS came up with it?
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Karagin
05/12/22 03:08 PM
70.118.172.64
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The idea of the Combine being crushed still allowed for more stories and fighting. The Clans made it clear they weren't leaving so they would be another player in the game so to speak.
The Combine had ways of holding out, they were not in as bad of shape as the CapCon, they didn't have nutcase running things and Theodore was a lot smarter than the Laios. He knew he could not last forever, but he could build up things that could. Also, he knew Victor would not allow the Suns to attack the Combine, not while he could avoid it. The Lyrans had no real way to hit at the Combine anymore. Three Clans in the way, their own rebuilding post-civil war. Lots of ways to keep things small and NOT go the route of the WoB silliness.
Or do go that route, pissed off WoB, throws their temper tantrum but finds out even while hurt, the Inner Sphere can shift gears pretty quick. No need for the silliness of another arms race right on top of the last one, the same one that even the players hadn't fully gotten used to. Or run the same overall story but have the WoB doing it far more slowly and then have the big clash between the Clans and WoB on Terra, not the silliness of mechs to plows shears and all that.
My group sat down and tried to figure out prior to the whole FC Civil War, how a Fifth War could play out with the Clans there. We came up with this. The dangers of the Fed-Com having both a battle-tested military with Clan tech is an issue the Mairk and Sun Tzu can't ignore. So they go the route of merging their two realms, but old Sunny boy and some FWL traitors, and good old WoB all have another plan in play. One that gets Isis Marik killed the day of the wedding. And even though the "I dos" had not happened yet, she is shot in a manner that prevents that from happening and the wedding is attacked as well, an enraged Sonny Boy blames Victor and uses this to have Marik attack the Fed-Com with him. WoB uses their control of the Marik HPG net to send out highly doctored footage of the events, and "captured" Fed-Com commandos and others all are seen confessing to the plot, etc...this causes issues with the Fed-Com. Kat, while in on the plot, uses this to push that her brother is a danger and should be stripped of his rule. Uprisings happen in many former LC worlds. Some on FS worlds are in what becomes the Chaos March area, and Sunny and Marik hit everywhere they can at once with the help of WoB and some of their special units.
Meanwhile, the Falcons use this as a chance to grab more worlds since the Fed-Com now has to deal with the other attacks and we see Katherine doing her I am better than Victor moment pulling the LC out of the alliance and now old Victor has that to deal with, he gets some aid from the Combine but that causes MORE issues. ComStar jumps in to help, and while that looks good it comes with its own issues. The Wolves are trying to figure out how to deal with the Falcons and their actions as well as watching the Bears and ComStar. Their hands are tied since they can't move past the Treaty border. The Bears have their own issues, from former RL units and population to deal with to ComStar and the Combine and the other Clans on their borders, so they aren't going to jump in but might if they see a way to gain things. The Combine has to deal with the Clans on their borders, and internal issues and if Theodore offers help to Victor, while it might play well with some, it's going to cause more issues for him.
We then had this be a big boon for merc units and the Dragoons would be doing all they can to keep control of things around their holdings and figure out who's side to fight on. They might remain natural and play broker for the other mercs since they see the Clans as a bigger issue. They could also use this to get more intel on the WoB and their long-term plans.
We had this fighting run for roughly 10 years max, with it having lulls and highs. A quick and dirty test play had Laio take the burnt of the counterattacks by Victor and then as more info comes out Marik tries to pull out of the war, the WoB let leak his an imposter, and they parade another imposter of Thomas, showing him alive but crippled, not pointing out that the real Marik is the nutjob trying to get revenge on all who hurt him. He is using the WoB and their insanity to his advantage. This causes the more or less collapse of the FWL and allows Victor to crush Sonny Boy and then have to deal with his sister, the Clans, and all the other issues he hadn't gotten to. Thus even more fighting and universe-sweeping changes are in the making.
All of which to use make a ton of sense, followed the set patterns in the universe, and kept things on a level that players could run with. It also brought to light a lot of issues within the game's backstories and how plot points had been dropped or left dangling and never dealt with, etc...
Then we saw the whole FC Civil War turn into the WoB storyline and we were like uhmm WTH and a few other comments. One thing is clear the Inner Sphere is vast enough to support dozens of plot lines running, but for some reason, that isn't being done.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/12/22 03:35 PM
70.118.172.64
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The Clans had 300 years to do things, they advanced what wanted to advance. Things are we really only know a fraction of what they advanced. We know they have better medical systems, military tech, and engineering abilities. We don't a damn thing if they advanced their computers or FTL drives. Or how much better they made their HPGs, like more portable and cheaper to make. That is one area they should have been focused on since they had techs and others who knew how they worked and could make new ones given time. The time they had. Their tech is higher than the Inner Sphere, they don't waste things, and they don't have the same poverty issues that the IS would have.
The other issue is that everything centers around the Inner Sphere, this lends to a bad picture of Clan tech advancing. The Tactical Handbook and MaxTech both are bad about this.
Inner Sphere comes up with the Bloodhound AP and the Angel ECM, That makes sense since those are two areas they are behind in as far as weight and range. Clans are behind in really using probes and ECM to fully gain an advantage. Yet we get Clan versions of both, no reasons, no real idea why, but hey here they are. That continues across the two books.
The Inner Sphere offers new ammunitions for the LRMs/SRMs and Autocannons, ammunitions that offer new advantages but also drawbacks. There is NO counter by the Clans, okay that does happen, they haven't run into these yet. But at that point, we don't see anything really for the Clans as new.
We don't until the WoB silliness in full WWE mode, and we get HAGs, Watchdog systems and their version of the RACs, and some other things. Yet, none of this is purely a Clan thing. For the Clans a single system that can do ECM, EECM, and probing aka the NOVA Watchdog thing makes sense, but for them to push out their versions of the Angel and Bloodhound, no it doesn't make any sense.
Also, Battletech has had this other issue since the late 90s, TPTB has tried to advance things to match new real-world military toys, ignoring some but embracing others. So we got a bad take on Stealth technology, really bad. Then wing over ground effects failures that the Soviets tried to get a new life because someone thought they were cool. Each addition brought new problems. We now have two ways to make vehicles, one for combat and one for the so-called non-combat side. But if you want to use something you can't because you have to make this weird hybrid thing. We have two types of armor systems. With the whole BAR silliness. Standard Armor was just that standard, it didn't need to be broken down into anything else. We even knew it took a lot of combined firing from infantry weapons to hurt units with even standard armor. So the whole BAR system stinks of copying Palladium and their two-tiered damage system with SDC and MDC setup.
The counter to all of this is this "see they listened to you and the others, why aren't you happy" and it's a great line. Really good. The thing is yes they did listen to the idea, but they put a spin on things that made the idea non-ideal. And again a lot of this comes down to who was in charge of what at the time and events going on with legal and blow the game took when FASA collapsed. I can see many of the same attitudes with some of the new PTB with their stance on several issues or their idea that their work is wonderful, all the same issues we have seen before.
The game offers a ton of things to go running off with and some even could be used to explain a lot of the whys and whatnots, issue is can it be done in a way to add to the fun or not? We both have seen that when we have to correct what should be a simple reading of the source books and seeing that retcons happened, or how a point was forgotten that now needs to be fixed and we can see the rich colorful backstory that is there but not used.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/12/22 08:30 PM
101.185.82.214
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Not sure why having a family stake in a company would automatically mean anything.
Economic stability – provides leavers the Government can use to implement fiscal stability upon key worlds.
Managing the Nobility (Peerage) – economic control over key worlds provides a degree of control over key nobility.
Managing the Military Infrastructure – control over key military procurement boards assists with the internal stability of the realm.
And lastly as this is a Neo-Feudalism setting the ruler will require to be wealthier than that of their Nobility in order to retain their position. They can use their personal wealth off-book to assist or harm key nobility / citizens to ensure political control over the realm. Also establishing Manors / Estates with all the mod cons on key worlds is expensive …
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Economics / Military Industrial Complex - Exports within the Game and R&D within the Game
Unfortunately, when it comes to economics within the game it is very cut and dry and never takes into consideration how the governments can use their policies / strategies to assist economic advancement – that in turn assists with increased production numbers / R&D / Education / Medical Development etc throughout the entire economy. This in turn has a vast impact upon the size of the military and the consumables they have access to …
As for Military Industrial Complexes ability to export within the game. This have been totally mismanaged (in my opinion). First each corporation will require an export license … which in turn will require government oversight as it should be illegal to sell to anyone, who is not attached to their House’s military, advanced technological equipment.
Thus if you are a long term Mercenary unit then there is a possibility you can purchase Mechs from your employer House.
Selling cross-border, however, should only be Used Second / Third grade equipment only and never advanced technology … and again will require export license … and again should be for a limited number of cases eg. your House is supporting a pro your House guerrilla warfare / coup within enemy territory as seen throughout the 20th / 21st Century.
Consider the Cold War – US forces only obtained access to the most advanced Russian Fighter when the pilot defected landing the craft in Japan – and then they were forced to return it, though in pieces following the quickest assessment possible.
Or can you see a swap China’s most advanced fighter for America’s stealth fighter / bomber? As this is what is being considered here.
As can you see the military industrial complex selling new combat tanks on a lot the same as new civilian vehicles? As this is what is being suggested … so come on down to crazy Dave’s new Mech Lot and we will set you up with the new Mech, no deposit … and we provide access to loans at low interest …… Really?
Thus this idea that one House would sell Mechs to another House is an impossibility – each House should be reliant upon their own Military Industrial Complex for the manufacture of their weapons.
The only time this will laxed is due to a strategic alliance – eg. The NATO alliance – if you a member you are allowed access to other members military industrial complexes. In this case the “Weapons Kits” provided by the FWL during the Clan Invasion.
As for military R&D – Yes corporations and the military can undertake independent R&D that will hopefully be used to either drive sales whist protecting the realm.
However, each House’s “Pentagon” would have a military procurement division to which they would set the criteria by which new vehicles would be required …
Thus if a new Mech is required for the House military it would state … omni-mech … and then the specific purpose for the mech. The prototype Mechs would then undergo independent tests to determine the superior model … prior to being selected for mass production for the House’s military.
Thus the Black hole of military procurement / R&D really needs to be looked at and rectified.
As for backroom deals – good-luck with that – the last time that was considered was the Iran Contra … also sedition / treason laws will now need to be considered.
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The Clans did not bother hunting down all units …
If they were on the run then the Clan commander had no choice but to continue the running battle until victory was secured.
The only time they didn’t bother is when they believed all resistance had been removed … ie. they went into hiding for an extended period of time … ie. The Clans were never thorough when it came to analysing post combat analysis, a point that was never really exploited within the game when it came to removing front line forces / leaving behind small garrison unit … so yes I agree the Clan’s never understood House guerrilla warfare tactics.
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WOB, Terra and the Clan Invasion
The planetary invasion of Terra concerns the Legitimacy of the WOB from a quasi-religious-fringe group to that of a major player within the IS.
The reason they never fought the Clans was twofold …
1. Their enemy, ComStar, would finally undertake war against the Clans … thus devastating the ComGuard – as they get weaker WOB gains in strength attitude …
2. and more importantly … the FWL, who provided them sanctuary, was not engaged in war against the Clans.
Thus, politically, they would only go to war if the FWL also declared War on the Clans and units were moved into the combat zone.
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Steiner family and Defiance
Have a look at the shareholder rolls of the current military industrial complexes and the rise of private contractors within the military. The Steiner family therefore must retain control of the military even if they too must become private contractors at the same time.
It is all about control of the military – who’s hand is on the whip?
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when the story was done, mobile HPGs were not in the game
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator#Mobile_HPG
“ … the 50-ton model, introduced in 2655, is installed upon large spacecraft …”
… and the Amaris Civil War commenced 2766 ….
Thus command HQ for House Forces upon a ‘large spacecraft’ is achievable whilst nukes are being used upon planetary bodies.
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opportunities lost
Second Star League exploring the periphery – rather than kicking out just the Jags. All non SL clans should have retreated back into the periphery. The New SLDF would then have to be sent in to explore the periphery to find them and again remove them ….
This could have been incredible (rather than going down the Jihad) …and could have started the second clan war etc.
WOB tech proliferates all House militaries, this could have been a far more adventurous game than that of the Jihad!
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If not for the civil war saga the DC would have been in as bad of shape as the CC
As a kurita joined the Cats this should have established a reproachment between the DC and the Cats – which should have assisted the DC to rapidly advance their tech to Clan levels over a shorter period of time.
Their military should have been a match for all others – just the same as the Bears assist Rasalhague, and in so doing making them a powerhouse within the IS.
Making it impossible for the FC to engage them in full combat ‘at this point in time’.
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5th Succession War / Isis shot
1st what happens to the 2nd Star League and their SLDF when it comes to containing the Clan threat – as this will shatter the new Star League – also due to the Clan Threat will the DC assist the FC in forming an alliance to keep the Clan threat under control – the enemy of my enemy is my friend type of alliance? Also has the FC separated back into two Houses due to Victor being stupid?
2nd where is the Wedding – also on Terra as per FS and LC? This will have problem with the idea of an assassin.
3rd what is the response of the Clans to a 5th Succession War – sit back and do nothing – or do they continue their invasion thus opening multiple fronts at the same time.
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Clan Technology – employment – Military R&D
Yes, I agree a more detailed understanding of Clan Technology is required (vastly increase in the number of books required) especially when you first need to consider what was transported from the IS to their new Home Land via exodus fleet – as written it appears as though the majority of their weapons were being transported rather than civilian vehicles and factories to assist with the recolonization of vast number of people upon new colony worlds. As this will direct their development for the first 100years of their new colony.
Employment – This is a Totalitarian Communist Government, therefore by definition there is no unemployment as everyone within the state is automatically assigned their employment position upon completion of their education.
Everyone outside the sate is an enemy of the state and as such a target to be eliminated.
Also a detailed explanation as how Clan military R&D is conducted would be appreciated as when waging trials within the clan home worlds R&D would be understandable, however, once contact is made with the IS how is this undertaken – do clan engineers visit the IS or does IS salvage be sent home for analysis – thus creating a juxtaposition when it comes to any response to new IS weapons.
Problem is – Money – TPTB need a new white Knight to take over the business bring in a vast number of new people and reinvigorate life into the game … and hopefully people who understand military and socioeconomics etc would be helpful – I would also suggest a complete rewrite of a majority of the history would be a good first step as the majority of the history as is is painfully full of holes (in my opinion) that do not flow as they should to produce a well balanced and comprehensive history that actually makes sense.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/12/22 08:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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How is it that WOB, after a few decades have increased the range of jumps, yet the tech leading clans could not do that in a hundred or so years? Even the HPG range was never breeched. Both have major military applications, which would be something they would have wanted. Batchalls would still be done, but having an enemy clan force show up when they were outside normal range and no warning given, so you wouldn't have some force ready to counter it comes up. Going thru a pair of jumps, even with the Lithium drives, would still give you an idea of where they might be. But having a longer range before hitting the IS would shorten they number of jumps needed.
The work to the ECM suites would have been done before the clans were formed, as the batchall, and hiding for that fact, was against their concepts. So I do agree this line of development is wrong.
For the smaller merc units, a full war is not ideal or even necessary to keep employed. Heavy raiding has left all sides depleted, yet the nations don't want to let the others catch their breath, so hiring mercs would be the way to go. Depending on how good they do taking out the enemy might actually lead to worlds changing hands.
The story of your group has a lot of things that would work well. Have you tried avoiding the FC entirely? Like having Mellisa killed during the Silver Eagle incident? Might be Comstar that does it, and frames the DC, which was already assaulting the ship. Without this, the CC might still be hit, but not as badly, and Walterly could not use it as an excuse to be able to seize power. This would change the entire clan invasion. If Melissa was killed, there would be no Victor or Katherine to lead to the Civil war. The Comstar/WOB break may not have happened.
This could lead to all the houses banning together to take on the clans without being hobbled by Comstar giving away their positions.
It would also mean that the 3039 war would have been far different, or not happened. The FRR may not have been formed, leaving the DC to deal with more of the clans then what they did.
Honestly, the 4th war might have started from Melissa being killed. The merger may still have happened, but no marriage.
Just curious on this. The group I play with hasn't done the what if beyond the clan invasion.
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ghostrider
05/12/22 09:13 PM
45.51.181.83
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Did you miss the Kincaid storyline? Defiance had sold things to the other houses in the past, and only had a problem when the Helm Core items were being sold. Not a single house besides the CC wanted the CC to be able to buy any of it, including the mercs hired by the CC.
Going by using only what the realm produces, means the CC would have died long before it did, with the DC being on a very defensive stance. And this doesn't even cover the periphery getting involved. The MoC only makes a few mechs, and the Shadowhawk being the heaviest of them. The OA even less.
With the OA, we know both FS and DC were selling them mechs. The same thing goes with the DC and LC selling to the FRR. We also know houses were supplying rebels in other nations. Some were handed over to the enemy as a means to ransom their warriors back, or buy forgiveness.
This also means that the CC and FWL would never have a new Atlas, as neither one of them made it.
And even before the FC merger, the DC was selling the CC mechs. Jenners were some of those mechs.
Some tech was exclusive to specific houses. The C3 and light gauss being but two of them. The DC did not really integrate the C3 in their equipment, so battle field salvage wasn't possible.
Again, read the printed word, not the between the lines concept, of the clans and how they fought. Once the government surrendered, and even at times when the leader of the planetary invasion said it was over, did they say it was over. This did NOT mean active fighting was still going on. The front line moved on, and let the second and PGCs take care of the rest. As this means fighting dezgra units, the front line was happy to leave them.
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ghostrider
05/12/22 09:38 PM
45.51.181.83
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So your own statements tell the lie of WOB being bred for combat against the clans. They hit Comstar, while Comstar was fighting the clans, and refused to participate until the FWL was involved sending units. And yet this didn't tell you that they had were not going to fight the clans, meaning their statement was a complete and total lie?
Get a hold of the books printed BEFORE the retcon of things like the mobile HPG. There was no such mention in the original TROs or house books. They were fitted into the game afterwards, as the history was trying to be filled out. There is no mention of SL equipment and gear before TRO 2750. It was made up to make that book.
Those items were NOT in the game before then.
The annihilation of the Jaguars was done to end the war. To hit all the clans would have caused even more destruction, so the alt has no place in canon discussions. The Jihad is roundly stated as crap. It should not have happened.
To attack all the clans at once would have caused the IS to lose the ability to use a trial of refusal for the invasion. The reason given is correct. To destroy one clan, the main clan pushing for the invasion, and had the Ilkhan with it, was seen as a war between the two. Hitting the others, would have cause more to become involved, and the IS could not handle that, especially when in the deep periphery and at the clans home worlds. So Task Force Serpent would have been lost, and the only way the IS would know about it is when the clans renewed their offensive. Or some of the members showed up as bondsmen.
And why would the clans retreat to the periphery? Because the Jaguars lost battles? This is showing a lack of understanding the clans ways of thinking. They would hold until the last warrior. They would kill as many as they could to defend even the worse worlds. It is their way of life.
The Cats were not giving the DC their tech. It was stated as such multiple times. And with FC would have had that tech and have been making it, if not for the garbage of costs. Given the costs of the earlier wars, the cost of the clans weapons were nothing compared to that. And with that, you don't think the other clans would have engaged the Cats to remove their dishonor for joining the IS? Especially the DC? History shows the DC willingly engaged in wanton destruction and unnecessary killing of non combatants. The act is what would set them off, not the fact freeborns died from it.
Wow, comprehension and reading between the lines was lost here.
' One that gets Isis Marik killed the day of the wedding. And even though the "I dos" had not happened yet, she is shot in a manner that prevents that from happening and the wedding is attacked as well, an enraged Sonny Boy blames Victor and uses this to have Marik attack the Fed-Com with him. WoB uses their control of the Marik HPG net to send out highly doctored footage of the events, and "captured" Fed-Com commandos and others all are seen confessing to the plot, etc...this causes issues with the Fed-Com. Kat, while in on the plot, uses this to push that her brother is a danger and should be stripped of his rule.
as more info comes out Marik tries to pull out of the war, the WoB let leak his an imposter, and they parade another imposter of Thomas,
Does this sound like WOB or Sun Tzu was urging the assassination? How is it possible? WOB owned Terra at this time as well. HMMMMM?????
Even being held on a different world, it could still happen.
A second instance of not understanding the clans ways. There are multiple freeborn villages that had nothing to do with clan employment. They farmed their own food, and kept out of the warriors way as much as possible. These camps were probably recruiting grounds for the bandit caste, which is a fine example of those not employed by the clans. The warriors didn't care about them, as long as they did not bother the trueborn warriors.
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Karagin
05/13/22 01:49 AM
70.118.172.64
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Nice, I had a very good discussion on the pros of a mobile HPG and why it's not really a major retcon and the ether ate it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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