Requiem
05/13/22 02:05 AM
101.185.82.214
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How is it that WOB
Technological advancements are as much about luck as intelligence …
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HPG Range
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator
Super-HPGs – standard is 50 light year limit – super has a range of nearly 1,000 light years …
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Mercenary Raiding
I would assume it is dependent upon the target as well as the security – that is the probability of achieving their objective – I would also like to add, what is the probability the mercenary raid is just an elaborate ruse, and it has been determined that the mercenary unit is expendable un this case, to allow a house unit to attack the true primary target.
I would also like to add that raids, almost never result in the planet changing hands – that is unless there is a very small population, and the planet is also insignificant.
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Alt. Universe – Mellisa killed during the Silver Eagle incident
Black spot on the Kell Hounds, what happens to Dan Allard and Patrick Kell?
Com-Star – everyone keeps on allowing them to get away with it, ever thought of what would happen if they were caught in the act?
This would change the entire IS history from this point on …
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Kincaid Storyline
Are you suggesting the following? https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Proprietary
As it involves smuggling into the CC.
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… and let the second and PGCs take care of the rest
Second Line Touman and PGC – problem available forces – three quarters the way to terra and you will run - even with PGCs there are just not enough!
In addition no one even considered the psychological impact an open society has on a closed society
Then there is the issue of a command unit raid – Clans have never had to prepare for such an eventuality.
So, all in all most garrisons will not be that well protected.
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WOB … combat against the Clans
Sophistry ….
Command decision to proceed requires entry into the Second Star League as a member.
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those items were not in the game before then
At what point are technological improvements allowed in the game?
As Clan weapon systems were not in the game before then, thus they too should not be included … so no omni, no toads …
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the annihilation of the Jaguars was done to end the war
Sorry but at this point I just can’t stop laughing at the absurdity of this …
The only way you are ever going to end the war with the Clans is when their culture and their iron born warriors are all destroyed.
Also the initial operation was to destroy all the Clans (that had not switched sides) within the IS – it had absolutely nothing at all to do with the Home Clans (for now).
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why would the clans retreat into the periphery
Because these Clans had been defeated militarily and they had lost all worlds they had initially conquered.
Thus their only next stop would be the periphery.
The sibko system does not work when compared to the IS academy system.
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Isis Marik
Still do not believe this will work.
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Freeborn villages
Which one ? As most would just consider them mobile targets.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/13/22 12:03 PM
45.51.181.83
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Might be better if you went back to ignoring the thread, as the responses are going further and further off the track from the posts.
In a lull, you want to keep pressure on the enemy. Raids are a good way of doing so, with keeping the losses down.
Being a merc, you have a good idea on which employers will drop you on a world then leave you. Others will do as they can to make sure any survivors make it back with their units. And no. Raids normally don't result in the conquering of worlds. It is done to prevent the enemy from catching their breath. Force them to spread out more as well as sending resources to fix the damage.
Comstar would use the same lie as most would. Melissa was not using her real name when traveling. They got intel suggesting this person that looked like here was an assassin on the way to kill Hanse Davion. Or even suggest she was a casualty as they were after someone else.
And Comstar was caught a few times. Proving it, and punishing them is the problem, as stated in the past.
The items Kincaid was selling to the CC at that point WERE illegal. This is not the case of sales before the SL tech. To my knowledge the ban was only on SL tech. So a normal LRM ton was ok, but swarms, thunders and such weren't.
Doesn't matter the numbers of the PGC, the fact is the front line DID NOT hunt down every last person fighting them before they moved on. They said their conquest was done and left the clean up to others.
To fight the clans, WOB needed to join the second league? That makes no sense. They could have attacked the clans instead of Comstar. There was time between their formation and the formation of the second League, they could very well have hit the clans. They didn't. So no. The lie that they were there to fight the clans was proven by their actions. And then the hit the states that upset them with nukes. Nothing against the clans.
Improvements can be made in the game. The issue is real time line verses the game. Had the improvements been in the game from the start, the entire history of the IS would have been different. What would have happened if SL tech was found before the Helm Core? Not all of it, but say a single weapon system. Kept to the spec ops, and destroyed if the unit was not going to make it. The entire ER line of weapons could have been done with a single breakthru of the line. Even in 3025, the swarm missiles would have devastated more then a few assaults by hitting multiple targets. The assault on Defiance in the Grey Death Legions book for instance. The mechs are said to have been sent up the ramp shoulder to shoulder. Against the stacking rules, but the swarms would have done more damage then a normal launcher. A thunderbolt doing the same thing.
So during WWII taking out Germany, the rest of the Axis had to die as well? They didn't surrender? The clans own traditions allowed the IS to destroy one of their own, then fight the rest in a trial of refusal. The IS only had the forces available to take on one clan. I do agree that challenging the others in a case by case fight to take worlds should have happened. This is where WOB could very well have fought the clans as they stated. The FRR definitely could have been the realm they could have done that with, as they were not freindly to the FC. And they did not seem to have issues with the clans joining the IS.
Because these Clans had been defeated militarily and they had lost all worlds they had initially conquered.
This statement alone says you have no clue on what canon has, and what you project into it thru the alt. The only clan defeated was the Smoke Jaguars. The Falcons, Wolves, and Bears retained their worlds. This is why people say you don't know what you are talking about. When did these three clans lose their worlds? Last I knew of, two of them were fighting on Terra to become the Ilclan.
The situation Karagin presented can work. But it does not follow your vision, as it removes Isis from the picture, destroying what you envisioned. That's fine. It was what his group did. No one has to even read it, much less follow it. It is not being touted as the only logical solution to use.
Mobile targets? How are they mobile when they have farms? Targets, they might be, but mobile is not correct. And there are villages that are NOT employed by the clans. Those living in them are not employed by the clans.
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Requiem
05/13/22 07:32 PM
101.185.82.214
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Raiding
Careful, careful … raiding, during a pause, could be used as a pretext to restart conflict by the House that is ready to do so.
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Melissa
If it can be proved that ComStar knew who she was – the repercussions will be staggering.
This is the point plausible deniability no longer works!
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The ban was only on SL tech
There is, therefore, a ban on advance technology.
However, even maintaining a supply chain for spare parts with Rival Houses is an insane proposition.
As what this suggests is that the entire IS economy is in a protracted recession for hundreds of years – to which any sane government would consider ridiculous. Any sales is, therefore, placing their long term safety and security at risk. Sorry, but I consider this another black hole of the game, as each House should maintain their own military industry complex which is used exclusively for the security of their House.
House Lords security / military units, due to their oaths to their House, will be able to purchase directly from their own House’s military industrial complex in a manner similar to a military unit requisition.
Mercenary units, however, will have a hard time of it. Spare parts will require either a secondary market comprising battlefield salvage or obsolescence or a contract that provides spare parts from their employers as part of their remuneration contract.
Logistical top ups from a House’s military to the secondary market will also occurs due to part obsolescence / long term wear and tear. When older parts are extracted and replaced with new as there may be some life left in these parts if they undergo reconditioning. That is where the part has been stripped or disassembled, cleaned, and has had any damaged components replaced prior to being sold on the secondary market.
Though once again secondary market sales should be for in House mercenary units only as once a mercenary unit moves House, they will lose access to the old / gain access to a new logistics system.
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front line units DID NOT hunt down every last person fighting before they moved on.
And in so doing allows for a unit to undertake guerrilla warfare – retaliatory strike against the remaining garrison (usually only a trinary). Which in turn will require front line units to return – and thus slowing any advance.
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To fight the clans WOB needed to join the second league? That makes no sense.
Really? So you expect the WOB to operate within the Deep periphery on their own with no allied logistical support from either the existing 2nd Star League SLDF Logistical support as how are they supposed to operate within the IS fighting the clans at this point in time?
There is also the point of time – from ComStar’s first contact to the reformation where WOB splits from ComStar at what point after this does the WOB military become a sufficient sizeable force to thereby be considered activated for combat?
Lets put this another way then, in WW2 jargon – we had Allies and Axis powers – and we also had those that were neutral. So, the question is, are neutral countries allowed to initiate and engage in combat against either the Allies or Axis powers as a separate war form the main war and still be allowed to be called neutral from the main war – as this is an altogether different war?
What this is demonstrating is how infuriating the Jihad really is, the plot is so convoluted that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when you break it down to its constituent parts.
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Improvements in the game
Once more the black hole of technological improvements needs to be considered – what is realistic and what is best for the game given that the IS has the Helm memory core and should also have had Wolf’s Dragoons assisting.
Difficult call to make.
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The IS had the forces to take on one clan
Sorry but once again I really have to question the absurdity of this.
We are expected to believe that there is a 15 year period of truce and no one is underrating a total war rearmament program – whist at the same time introducing conscription in an effort to prepare for a total war against all the IS Clans.
Remember the Clans mindset is that of the Mongol / Spartans – war with them is inevitable, as war is the cornerstone of their society. There is no living side by side with them in peace as they will always desire a state of war – peace is an anathema to them.
Any realist will come to the conclusion – war to death of one society or the other – there is no middle ground anymore when it comes to Clan society.
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Trial of Refusal
Question – what does the great trial of refusal mean to the clans and to the IS?
What is it the clans had to give up and what is it that the IS gained in real terms?
Should the clans have retreated from the IS and returned home as the validity of the invasion was now null and void?
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projection through the alt.
Lets consider this shall we? Basic Proforma – not including IS political issues behind the scenes – wars between SL members / assassinations (just the usual issues)
CC no longer exists – it has been amalgamated into the FC
Wolf’s Dragoons has actually done their job and assisted with the redevelopment of IS technology
The Helm memory core has also assisted with the redevelopment of IS technology
By this point warships should have returned to the IS (that is even if they became extinct in the first place!)
The invasion commences …
Low priority worlds are conquered with alacrity …
However, once a sizeable populated world that has been assisted by their House to maintain / develop a high technological output – that Clan is now in a war of attrition, combined arms tactics should have swamped whole Clan units – their ability to replace lost warriors due to the sibko system should have started to hinder them.
Their ability to maintain consumables for any weapon system should have also become apparent – the logistics chain is too long for any effective and timely re-supply – sooner or later the majority of Clan’s Omnis will have to switch to primary energy weapon configurations.
Sooner rather than later a Navy war will erupt between the Clans and IS warships …
At this point IS forces would be initiating combat against their logistics fleets – at the same time freeborn Clansmen will be defecting – the lure of an open society where their skills will be highly prized will be too much for many … this will result in a skills shortage – at the same time guerrilla warfare in the rear is also reducing the numbers on the front lines …
There will come a point in time that the Clans Advance will Stall …
Also way earlier than that of Canon the IS will form a united front against the Clans – the 2nd Star League is formed including the 2nd SLDF.
Reverse engineering of Clan technology will commence in earnest
Total warfare logistics and military conscription will commence throughout the IS …
The idea that ComStar assists the Clans never occurs … as reports of their society proves an anathema to their beliefs … the schism never occurs as religious dogma and modernists agree that they need to work together to ensure the safety of the IS, and in so doing promote the Work of Blake as a religious belief within the IS through their good works in battle as a Templar Military Unit …
Attrition warfare will over time wear down the Clans (sibko resupply numbers are become ineffective against the force depletion reports) – Units within the Clans have to be folded into one another as losses become unsustainable in order to maintain operational groups.
Slowly but surely the Clan Horde will be forced back into the Periphery … at the same time IS omni tech should be seen on the front lines …
IS expeditionary SLDF units are created to hunt down the Clans and to find their Home-worlds – prior to a full invasion.
Comstar’s five hidden worlds have assisted in creating a new military to assist in hunting down the Clans
Both Falcon and Wolves will be deemed a failure by the Home Clans – either absorbed into other Clans or eliminated outright.
At this point new colony worlds will be need to be established – the IS will grow – and there will be multiple wars between the new SLDF and that of all the Clans (Home Clans will commence war) throughout the Periphery between the two realms.
Logistics chain will continue to be an issue for both sides
Also if the Cats or the Bears switch sides – given the size of the Leviathans compared to their total population – Only a very small fraction of their population will be saved – the remainder will be divvied up amongst Home Clans (after they have been sterilized – same as with Clan Wolverine civilians) … over time their society will be absorbed into one of the Houses and only rudimentary traditions will remain as the majority of Freeborns will reject the old Clan ways leaving the warriors isolated and alone …
Over time Jump distance must increase to decrease time to IS / Clan Home Worlds so that both sides will attack each other as the distance between the two realms is far to great / you would need a hundred-year war just to map and wage war to get from the IS to the Clan Home Worlds
Multiple new states within the deep periphery will be formed – either Clan or IS as they will continue the war over time as hate is passed down from one generation to the next …
The Sibko system will either have to be ramped up to allow more warrior graduates or the Clans will have to allow more freeborn to become warriors – this in turn will require a political shift in the Clans as Freeborn may now become named and rise to the position of Khan due to the numbers required to prosecute the war … this will also require a reformation of the Clan Society as a whole …
– Though sooner or later the greater population of the IS will prevail … Clans will be conquered, those evil parts of their culture that have not been removed will be removed for all time … The Clans will become something different.
For a time, there is peace … however this will not last as the Clan Dream of empire remains … and sooner or later someone will pick up the torch and the war will be on again …
Also how many times have I stated that I reject canon history – thus the idea of two clans fighting on Terra to become the ilClan becomes a ridiculous proposition based upon incredibly poor writing.
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Farmers
Consider the psychological rationale behind the German Einsatzgruppen, racial purity and the idea of us and them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/13/22 08:35 PM
45.51.181.83
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Raiding was done by all houses when they were trying to rebuild in both 1st and 2nd war. The 3rd war was a lot more raiding. SO when did it reignite a war?
Repercussions? The DC found out Melissa was on the Silver Eagle. And the Kell Hounds found out the DC knew she was there. Explain why Comstar would have to answer for anything.
WOB had their own logistics, as well as Terra before the clan truce. The FRR would have done what it could to get help, as Comstars involvement was only helping at the end of the first invasion. They had the map of the IS, which meant uninhabited systems that could use, as well as other intel. Saying they couldn't engage the clans is basically a cop out. During that entire time, even up to and past the second league formation, they could have hit the clans. Even if they were hiring out as mercs. The DC and FRR wouldn't have an issue with it. The FC might have, but if they pushed the clans back, then they could look the other way.
So yeah. WOB could very well have hit the clans before the SL reformation.
Gee. War to the death, yet the concept of destroying the enemy by any means is deemed wrong? Which do you support? You said the 1st and 2nd wars should not have been so destructive, yet the need to wipe out the clans means to do that.
The clans had a Mongol mindset, yet did nothing while part of their society was destroyed, and even said that is wasn't their fight until the trial. They agreed to the trial and consequences of it.
The trial was to end the invasion. It was not set to give back lands that were already taken. It also did not set a time limit before a new war could be started. The clans gave up their push to Terra for a while, while the IS gained a rest from the invasion. What is so complicated with this?
Let's consider this. The conversation is about canon and the statement of the ALT has no bearing here, and needs to be left out of it. Argue canon faults with canon logic.
As you said that the Falcons, Wolves, and Bear lost their property, they should have retreated into the periphery. THAT DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE CANON STORY. So most of the arguments coming up is pitting someone's made up story against canon. Canon is written up in the published books, not made up on the spot so only one person knows what is going on. And yes, the alt has changed when facts were brought up in discussions.
As stated, LEAVE ALT out of this thread.
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Karagin
05/13/22 10:33 PM
70.118.172.64
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How much trade goes between the Clan holdings and the bordering IS powers? And what happens when a Clan merchant vessel appears in say Davion system that has never seen the Clans other than on the tri-vee reports?
Wonder if they batter for things, like materials, heavy metals other goods, or is it a cash transaction.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/14/22 02:10 AM
45.51.181.83
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I doubt it would be cash, as the clans don't seem to do anything other then credits. Especially since they can't spend IS money in the clan home worlds. This may have changed as the years went on.
I would think that a vessel would set off alarms, just because it was not the nations ships. The nation in question may well try to shoot down the jumpship and dropship without proper identification.
The question of resources would go back to the question before, on if there could be a shortage in solar systems. A temporary need of materials until mines can be done would be about all the need for ores. Granted, they may still need extra as they build more things then they could find ores for a while.
If the game reported correctly, the Bears needed food for their holdings for a short while, as their governing skills were in sufficient to meet the needs, at first. Again, this is questionable due to the self sufficient outlook that was recently put forth.
In general, I would say barter did happen, even with the supposedly not needed supplies. We know the Diamond Sharks did, but how did they come up with how much a clan erppc costs verses IS stuff?
Funny things with this, is I could see the Sharks buying IS ammo, and selling it to the Falcons to keep them in the fight. 
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Requiem
05/14/22 05:48 AM
101.185.82.214
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Raiding aka depredation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(military)
The purpose of a raid may include:
To destroy specific goods or installations of military or economic value;
This example demonstrates when the attack can only be considered to be deeply disturbing by utilizing a WMD …
2760 – A nuclear weapon is detonated on Demeter. Sparking a border war between the Capellan Confederation and Federated Suns.
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Repercussions
ComStar would have to answer for leaking the information as to Melissa’s covert travel identity and itinerary … which participated to the hijacking of the Silver Eagle.
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Saying they couldn’t engage the Clans is basically a cop out.
First, at what specific time did the new WOB military force become operational to undertake military operations?
Second, Politics must be considered – How will the members of the 2nd Star League react to the knowledge that the WOB has manufactured a vastly superior military force? Also in addition to this how will they react when they are told that ComStar maintained hidden worlds, which maintained all of the Star Leagues hidden technology during the dark ages of the Succession Wars, in order to manufacture such a vast military force? The backlash of which will be considerable.
Third, How will each of the individual Clans react to WOB’s new military.
At a basic level these questions will have to be determined prior to any combat operations upon the Clans. As these answers will have long term effects upon the WOB, how they are perceived, as well as their ability to remain within the FWL and finally their ability to become a member of the 2nd Star League (ultimate short term goal!).
So it is not so much a cop out as it is an information gathering exercise prior to becoming public knowledge.
As how many times has the military kept projects hidden for the fear that when the public became complicit as to their activities, they would demand they are shut down? This is what is going on here.
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Military War – Political Aim
War is as much concept as it is conduct. Before entering a war, politicians are required to provide clear goal(s), as this will provide the military with an exit ramp / conclusion of war – what are we fighting for knowledge.
Succession War – Goal: Attain the position of First Lord of subsequent revitalization of the Star League.
The only realistic method of achieving this is to acquire your enemies worlds (resources – people and technology) as undamaged as possible - make them you own – thereby allowing your forces to continually increase in size and scope to a point in time in which your forces will conquer the IS in as pristine condition as possible – as this will provide legitimacy as to your (and your future generations) right to rule the Star League.
Remember the right to rule will require the new First Lord to be seen as upholding the values and morals of the Star League in order to rule. The use of WMDs will just make you and your progeny to be viewed as dictators on the same level as Stalin and Hitler for the mass genocide of worlds through the use of WMDs.
Clan War – Goal: Two parts – First to reacquire ALL lost worlds to the Clans during their initial invasion; Second – attempt to maintain a peaceful cohabitation between the Clan Home Worlds and the Inner Sphere.
Unfortunately, due to the Clans psychological indoctrination as to the sate of War to achieve all political goals – Mongol / Spartan theology based upon a complex list of rules and traditions that underpin their very way of life. The inner sphere is left with one undeniable conclusion the clans will never stop waging war until they have achieved mastery over the entire human race.
Therefore, what this will eventuate into is a genocidal war to destroy the Clans until the point in time they change their society’s values and give up on the idea of war is the solution to everything.
Even though the new SLDF attacked only one Clan I would like to point out what happens on the conclusion of the 15 years truce – all belligerent IS Clan forces will recommence their war – thus yes, their societal rules can be used, however, at the end of the day they will revert to combat for the sake of combat in achieving all their pollical aims / goals.
Thus leaving all of their neighbours with one scenario – war to stop them, and in this case this will only occur when the Military Society has been removed and replaced with a civilian one – which in all likelihood will be achieved only when all their military personnel are dead.
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The trial was to end the invasion.
How fantastic! (satire) Lets stop the war for 5 minutes and then commence a second war and state they two have nothing in common … (satire one again)
Once again we receive pitiful writing as the trial puts the war on pause for an undeterminable time frame … what a load of BS.
There should have been some quantifiable measure to winning – such as all Inner Sphere Clans had to now return home to the Clan Home worlds and giving up on their newly conquered territory … they lost so they leave … as if they had won the opposite would have been a resumption to the war and in all likelihood all Home Clans would have been allowed to fight. Thus, in all reality it should have been made into an all or nothing scenario.
Sorry but I find this point to be incredibly pitiful writing ….
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THAT DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE CANON STORY
Thus by this argument the canon story is inviolate and can never be criticised as everything that happened is without fault.
If the canon story was written to publish books then they should have made it into a better story as this would have ensured the continuation of the game (as per Black Library – Warhammer, Warhammer 40K etc).
Hence the need for a rewrite so that it can compete against Black Library, rather than hidden away on the net.
Question – how are we going to make criticisms without providing examples as to how it can be improved upon in our opinion? As if it is inviolate then no one can make criticisms to begin with.
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How much trade goes between the Clan holdings and the bordering IS powers?
Answer – with those Clans who are actively engaged in belligerent activity – None.
With the sole Clan that is there only to undertake merchant activity – This is where military psy-ops and LOKI would step in. Aim – provide them with a variety of ‘goods’ that are designed to de-program Clan freeborn from accepting their current way of life in order to desire a more rewarding IS life that is closer to the former Star League than that their military overlords have lied to them about. i.e. the aim of the game is to start a rebellion on the Clan home worlds – Freeborn Vs. Trueborn.
Question – how can a Clan merchant vessel (and its crew) be unaware of their origins until they view other vessels of the same class on a tri-vee report?
Is their mass amnesia – also if the IS military noticed a new class of Jump-ship wandering around don’t you think they would board it to find out what is going on?
Also given that unless the Clans have ‘acquisitioned’ IS currency from worlds they have ‘acquired’ then the only rational form of transaction would be the barter card, and a good merchant can note tells to determine if a product has wealth or not – at the end of the day it is instinct and knowing what has and does not have intrinsic value … as well as knowing what is rubbish and what is not as many merchants deal in rubbish when they know they are dealing with a rube who has no knowledge of a products true wealth.
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Buying IS ammo to keep the Falcons in the fight
Problem – does FC ammo have the ability to fit in Clan weapon systems – as above we were arguing over the retooling of IS ammunition plants so as to allow Clans to use them.
Thus is this ammunition a specially made custom order ammunition?
Also when using IS explosives the bang will not be as big thus wont their warriors curse the defective ammunition and by extension the Clan that sold them the defective junk in the first place – thus wouldn’t the Falcons want payback (revenge) for the defective consumables?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/14/22 10:41 AM
70.118.172.64
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The shortage doesn't mean a system, if I can get more of say cobalt from your planet than I do my normal sources, well it makes more sense to get it from you. Or I could trade for resources to then turn around and trade those off for something. Lots of scenarios.
Yes, the Sharks would do that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/14/22 12:06 PM
45.51.181.83
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A raid is not using nukes to destroy a target. It is sending in forces to hit the target, though it may well still leave radiation depending on the target. The houses have been raiding each other throughout the 3rd war and beyond. The DC used suicide troops to raid borders during the lull between wars to prevent repairs of those border worlds.
WOB first official use of their military to hit Terra, taking it from Comstar. The were posing as the 21st century lancers if I recall.
How did the members of the second SL take to learning WOB had the military? What does the 2nd SL have to do with WOB hitting the clans anyways? They could have hit the clans before it was made. They could have hit it after as well. They didn't. So their stated purpose was a lie.
Each clan would deal with it as they would any other military force in the IS. Destroy it when they could. They would have to deal with the new tech, and that would be about it. Which in game terms means the clans would have gotten that tech and made it better (I dislike this part).
WOB had full access to Comstar intel before and after they took Terra. They had access to everything Comstar stole from the houses involved with the clans. Had they struck the clans and started defeating them, atleast 2 of the houses would have been more favorable on their outlook, for a while. They would be seen as the knights they wanted to appear to be.'
Civilians, and the house leaders, are worried that what ever was hidden would be used against them, to subjegate them into becoming slaves to those that have the hidden labs.
Acquiring their resources, and trying to obtain that goal quickly do not go hand in hand. Taking out as many soldiers as you can, to force your enemy to surrender was the goal during the first war, and the 2nd war did not learn from the mistake of the 1st war. As the 3rd war came about, the concept of having to take the enemy's resources was forced on the combatants, as they were having problems rebuilding. The is the game history. Not as logical as it should be, given other logic issues, but generally accepted.
The right to rule comes from being the top dog. The use of nukes and such will be smoothed over when you write history of the action. No matter what you do, you will never be fully accepted by the entire population of even your own nation, much less the entire IS.
Now. Where did the clans lose ground during the invasion? You keep claiming this, but where in the canon history did the clans lose this ground? The Jaguars are the only clan that lost their territory. And were destroyed, so they couldn't get it back. Where in the books does it state the clans lost their territory? They didn't.
Yeah. War, or threat of violence is not the mainstay in two of the IS houses, with the third example of WOB notwithstanding. Oh yeah. Let's not forget the pirate organizations with this at well. The clans are correct with the trials concept. It does promote might over right, but then all strongmen organizations do this, but it also limits the damage done and removes most of the issues of hold outs. During the fight, you don't walk over to where civilians are hiding at and stomp on them for the hell of it. Poison and other things are not used to make sure that if you lose, the facility is useless.
Gee. Didn't the succession wars do the same thing? Isn't that was all reoccuring wars did in history? The same piece of land fought over time after time is common place. There is nothing in clan history, except the Ilclan prize for Terra, that had a fight give a physical prize like land, immunity to further trials. There was always a time limit for that. The IS had to know that before they went in to demand the refusal trial. It isn't like humanity has not stopped fighting over property since history started, so why would it happen now?
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ghostrider
05/14/22 12:32 PM
45.51.181.83
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The war was stopped. That is quantifiable. The worlds at the new border were able to do something other then prepare to be hit, at least for a while. Rebuilding forces and training new soldiers could happen without the need to rush them to the front lines.
Thus by this argument the canon story is inviolate and can never be criticised as everything that happened is without fault.
Criticized is one thing, out right lying to try and twist the truth is another. This is very much appearing to be that canon is unknown, and promotion of an alt is being done. If you can't get your canon facts straight, then stop posting in canon threads. The clans did not lose ground to be forced into the periphery. Not sure why this is so hard to comprehend.
It was stated this is a canon discussion. Posting things that are lies, and suggesting they are the truth is the problem.
Belligerent activity? Like invading the CC for the 4th war? For trying to become first lord by killing your enemy? Any war that the primary objective is to seize lands and resources just because you want them? The clans did have a reason for invading the IS, besides make more money for the developers. They were trying to restore the SL with their views.
The clan vessel's crew being unaware, wasn't the question. It was how would the IS worlds deal with the clan vessel.
The timeframe of when the trading was taking place also changes the answer to what the IS would do with a clan vessel in their area. The initial invasion would have immediate hostile response to it, while 3100's would have more communications before a major response. There was no time frame stated in the question.
Given the game does not go into the actual differences of the ammo sizes, and all the fluff suggests that you can use ammo from the enemy, then it would be you can use it.
As stated before, the IS/clan ammo isn't what causes the difference in damage and range. There is nothing stating that the ammo changes these. It just appears the weapon itself does this, which is completely illogical. Look... Canon logic to show canon logic is incorrect.
I know they did it to keep the game simple, but this is stupid. And why didn't the IS change the LRMs so they were like the clans and didn't require the minimum range?
Where in the rules does it state that an AC 10 round is more powerful for the clans then the IS version? This is the issue.
Food would be a major thing the clans traded for, at least at first. The warriors would not be growing any, and shipping it from the home worlds leads to many problems.
As stated, currency would be an issue when you can't come up with a trade value. I mean how many bushels of apples would pay for a clan double sink, or endosteel?
I really don't see H-bills doing it, and even C-bills being unlikely.
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Requiem
05/14/22 09:12 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Cobalt – supply issues
What does your long-term contract with a multi-planetoid metals and mining company require of you would be a more informative issue? As if you have a short term or even one-off contract this will open any company to access control – what happens when another company steps in and agrees to pay more for all the Cobalt in your area – in the end the price could become so prohibitive that it could destroy the finances of the company / the company can no longer gain access due to the exorbitant price. This then will affect sales contracts … which in turn can lead to a massive drop in share price … as well as a possible hostile takeover.
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Raiding
Sorry but I disagree, the definition of a raid includes the destruction of specific goods or installations of military or economic value – it does not include how the destruction occurs, in this case by utilizing either plastic or a nuke. The result is the same and this is just an issue regarding semantics as to type of explosive used.
By definition, a raid did occur, and it resulted in a war.
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WOB conquest of Terra
And here I thought we were discussing the Manei Domini (Omni-tech / Power Armour etc.) and not a unit posing as mercenary unit – which is using outdated and old equipment.
The members of the second Star League would have already known that they have access to these weapons as the knowledge regarding the ComGuard has become know since the end of the Federated Suns Interdiction.
They could have hit before the Manei Domini was made? Again this is a political issue as to how ComStar, and the other members, would react. Also if you want to use shock and awe wouldn’t it be for the best to keep your cards close to your chest?
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the clans would have gotten that tech and made it better
So the clans are now going to implement cybernetic interface systems into their warriors also? Or are they going to call them abominations and desire to kill them off as they have an issue with regards to genetic racial purity.
That is by adding mechanical bits on they are no longer pure in their genetic makeup.
Consider Dr. Who episode – Remembrance of the Daleks.
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Insidious Knights
Think this through …
Taking the image as bold Knights … similar to that of the FWLs … with all the trappings and the sir and dame …
Then add in the master as their Templar Lord (new name – like Focht)
They would have the ability to make converts all throughout the war zone and the DMZ- anywhere they go
They would be viewed as liberators, heroes of the 2nd Star League…
If they have a hospitaller unit with them they would have been seen in a very favourable light – feeding the hungry, saving the sick, repairing the damaged … even championing the cause that having a prosthetic does not make you any less of a human, it does not need to define who you are …
If a news agency reporter were attached the reach of their positive message as to the sanctity of Blake would extend to near all planets in the IS over time … and again would be viewed favourably …Over time their influence (and power) could rival any religion …
The question is what do they do with that influence and power? A silent invasion of ideas ….
However, to do this will require the right nexus point – time and circumstance when entering the stage!
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Taking out as many soldiers as you can, to force your enemy to surrender was the goal during the first war
And this is where everything falls off the rails. Not only are your forces nuking enemy combatants they are also nuking enemy civilians whist at the same time your enemy is using nukes like M&Ms in retaliation.
All this proves is that as a leader of such a military this individual is not worthy of the title of First Lord of The Star League as they have demonstrated that they would rather reign over a vast field of nuclear ash and biological dead zones that contain only the dead rather than actually demonstrating their ability to rule as is expected of a First Lord.
Thus any leader caught up in this is litter better than a Stalin or Hitler … you cannot just re-write history, those who lived through it will condemn their names for all time …
What this also demonstrates is that who ever wrote this has no real idea of what they are writing and are attempting to be sensationalist for the sake of being sensationalist.
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Where did the clans lose ground during the invasion?
Cannon is inviolate thus cannot be questioned, all hail cannon!
Question what happens when a Clan invasion unit is attacked by the vast number of Combat Vehicles every world can manufacture?
Sorry to say but they will not last very long!
Once again pitiful writing as an excuse for historical events – time to add in all the facets of IS war and then see how the Clans fare against them …
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The Clans
So how does it feel living in a clan society if you are not a warrior and all you are and ever will be is a nameless cog that is never allowed to deviate and is never allowed to have your own thoughts and is never allowed to pursue your own dreams?
Also remember what was written within the 1st Somerset Strikers Book re the Clans …
Also, as for civilians, how are those at Turtle Bay?
Quote:
Clan History
1st What happed to those individuals who wanted to live their lives prior to the establishment of the Clans? What did Nicki do them again? And why did many fears he would become the new Amaris?
2nd Clan Wolverine
Also wars are fought with a clear objective in mind – the Clans however fight for the sake of fighting they are little better than barbarians who use their “war games” to justify their superiority when in all reality they little better than you common thug.
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The war was stopped
Really? And how long between then and the next? Also remember one of the aims of this war is to remove all of the Belligerent Clans from the IS … so as to return the people back to their original states and not to leave them under the yoke of the Clans permanently.
Which demonstrates one again the writers and their characters “Victor” etc is more than willing to through a vast number of people into a tyrannical society just for their own whim. Sorry but this once again demonstrates a very badly written opera …
However as for Victor’s character when you do a deep dive you realize how pitiful he really was.
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out right lying to try and twist the truth
Really? There is cannon and then within the title of my works there is Alternative Universe (called AU for short – suggest you google it as it is a legitimate style) thus right from the beginning the reader understands that the author will be diverging from the original to create their own.
Thus, it in no way is lying or twisting the truth, the author is expressing their own alternative fanfiction – that has been surging for many years.
The true issue, is if I was to guess, is that many of the scenarios I have developed have a created a far more invigorating and exiting history than that of the original.
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They were trying to restore the SL with their views
i.e. a war of conquest to impose a tyrannical government with communist ideas of a dystopian universe of say 1984, clockwork orange etc.
that in no way can be considered having the same ideals as that of the original due to a complete lack of understanding / empathy towards the human spirit.
Oh yes, this is a wonderful objective (satire once again).
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Food would be a major thing the clans traded for, at least at first
Don’t you mean steal … as what we conquered is ours, thus we can just take it kind of mentality when it comes to communal property owned by communist state.
As in all reality they should have been running low in the initial stages of the invasion given that the next logistics fleet could be up to six to twelve months distant and given that no one ever decided to consider Clan logistics within the game. Thus you can make it up as you go.
And again – how many banks currency can the Clans take, from world they have conquered, and use for currency on other worlds to acquire goods if they thought they could do so?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/14/22 10:34 PM
70.118.172.64
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War in the Inner Sphere has all kinds of levels. From open warfare between the houses to rivalry between merc units, to corporations trying to put their competitors out of business by all means possible. Then throw in the shadow wars between the intel services and you have war as a daily part of life.
Event the pirate raids are war, but the catch is war is a racket and in Battletech, it's down to a science. Lives are cheap, Battletechs are not. Everything comes down to money or resources or both in some cases.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/15/22 01:35 AM
45.51.181.83
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Get a new dictionary, or maybe reread what raids cover. It isn't just about blowing things up. Raids can include, but not limited to kidnapping people, stealing prototypes and other things, taking research materials without destroying a facility. There are raids done by the FBI and other law enforcement agencies around the world. Where raids do include blowing things up, it is not limited to doing such things.
The claim that WOB was in no position to hit the clans without being part of the 2nd SL was the discussion. Even with being part of it, they did not hit the clans, so the entire idea they were made to destroy the clans is false.
Just stop. The clans using Enhance Imaging tatoos, which is a cybernetic interface was done. Saying they wouldn't shows you have no idea of the canon story line. Best just put the alt completely away and reread all the canon books before posting again, as things are being posted that are completely false.
Oh yeah. Forget reading between the lines and comprehensive reading. Those haven't done any good as well.
Moral victory does not put you on the throne. Making sure everyone fears you enough to put you there is. This is war. It is NOT a political office won by the most popular vote.
You did not answer the question. Where did the three remaining clans lose ground? I can say that Victor pulled a Death Star out his butt and won the entire battle by himself, but that has no reality in the game story. What if they released all the monkeys from the zoos around the IS and sent then to fight the clans? Did they? Did the monkeys win or lose? Oh wait, it never happened. So answer were the three clans lost ground or go away. The constant falsehoods are getting old again.
Somerset is retcon material. It was done to include the cartoon crap into the canon line. As such, it is about useless as the other books actually deal with the clans, not just some video made up to make Adam Stiener look good.
How are the civies doing that were in target areas of almost any war? The IS used nukes and other things in their bid to become the new ruler of all. The only way to avoid death is not to war. And when attacked, you have no choice.
But to answer your question, they died when Amaris killed Richard and started the war that destroyed the SL.
There is always opposition to any changes. That is not saying they are wrong or right, but the only thing they could have done was get out before it went into effect. The fact a civil war destroyed most lives right before the clans were instituted is why they were accepted. If you don't like this fact, then give back your psychology major as people will agree to a lot of things to get out of a constant war.
Where in any of the writing was it said the Trial of Refusal was a war to remove the clans from the IS? Where is this even hinted at? The trial to was stop the war at that time. Everyone knew war would start up again, and it started with the FC civil war. Then other conflicts broke out.
If the goal was to remove the clans from the IS, there would not have been task force Serpent. It would have been a broad front push against all the clans at the same time. Which would have cost far more lives then what happened. It would have meant hitting all the clans with limited forces.
So where was the agreement to stop wars between nations after the SL fell? Did anyone agree to it?
The canon story was being discussed and was said it was only canon. The statement of the clans losing ground was stated in a manor as to make is sound like that happened in canon. To post something that is not in the canon line, is to be lying about the canon story. Multiple times the subject was only canon. And yet the continuation of canon being wrong because of someone's alt says it is comes back. Multiple times it was said to use canon facts to argue against canon facts. This justifies the suggestion that if it isn't canon, then it is a lie when discussion canon. Simple logic. It was also said to leave the alt out of the conversation. If people want to hear about it, they will comment in the multiple threads put up for it.
Wasn't the SL trying to force the periphery to join them? Sounds close to the same thing. And communist isn't the correct example. The clans did not decide everything was owned and share by everyone. They decided that military might ruled. Dictatorship is closer, though a few others are even closer.
Steal? The clans did not raid other worlds around them for food. They did what all conquerers do. The take everything for their concept. When there isn't enough, then they have to do something like maybe trade for more, and go to war for it.
There was another idea that came up with the self sufficient and the need to trade. Not all foods would be grown on each world. Trade would be needed to get in a variety for the people.
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Requiem
05/15/22 05:31 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Raiding – Get a new dictionary, or maybe reread what raids cover.
When I suggested the following website, as noted above, I actually thought it would have been perused … rather than being ignored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(military)
as it contained the following,
The purpose of a raid may include:
- the demoralize, confuse, or exhaust the enemy;
- to ransack, pillage, or plunder;
- destroy specific goods or installations of military or economic value;
- to free POWs;
- to capture enemy soldiers for interrogation;
- to kill or capture specific key persons;
- to gather intelligence.
Quote:
the entire idea they were made to destroy the clans is false
And yet again no comprehension of what was written above,
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Manei_Domini
First Paragraph under the heading Jihad … “These forces were initially raised, trained and equipped for a genocidal showdown with the Clans, as most of their augmentations are aimed at besting the genetically enhanced Clan warriors.”
Thus as stated above YES they (The Manei Domini) were created to destroy the Clans.
Quote:
Enhanced Imaging tattoos
Question are Enhanced Imaging the same as cybernetic implants? As cybernetic implants don’t have the limited shelf life that EI has and they are more just a tad bit more invasive as they are prosthetics …
Quote:
Moral victory does not put you on the throne. Making sure everyone fears you enough to put you there is.
Yes you can consider Machiavellianism and the Dark Triad, however, consider Confucius
What is there to fear? Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall. The way of the superior person in threefold: virtuous, they are free from anxieties; wise they are free from perplexities; and bold they are free from fear.
Thus in the quest and desire for power through fear, the more the leader utilizes fear, the more control they believe they need to feel safe … i.e. Stalin and the Soviet State …i.e. Hitler and the German Nazi state …
Then consider the Empire of Liberty (Thomas Jefferson), as well as the introduction of freedoms through the implementation of the Magna Carta (1215)
Take a guess which systems tends to last longer … due to the simple fact people tend to believe in an instruction that empowers them to better people rather than living in continual fear of their own government and their own fellow citizens who tend to inform upon others in an effort to prove their loyalty of a fearful state.
Also consider some of the Greatest … King Arthur for example …
Quote:
Where did the three remaining clans lose ground?
Why do I need to consider a completely ludicrous invasion that has more holes in than Swiss cheese?
Consider the Falcon Wolf War – at this stage where they have both virtually obliterated each other why didn’t anyone take advantage of this and rid the IS of these two once and for all?
And I am expected to defend the indefensible proposition that this story, at this point in time, has merit?
Quote:
Somerset
And yet the main characters within this story both become pivotal figures in their respective Cannon House history – so are they Canon or are they fluff that should never have progressed, as they cannot be both at the same time.
Still does not change the fact that the opening description of the Clans paints them as little better than Amaris’ forces.
Quote:
The Is used nukes
To get this in perspective … It was the Jaguars who used the first WMD, and it was the Falcons who threatened to use the Second … and yet here we are expected to believe that the IS would not retaliate in kind … what an absolutely believable story this is! (satire once again)
Quote:
people will agree to a lot of things to get out of a constant war
Sorry but you have lost me, please re-write in a way that can be understood as how do you get a causal link between what Amaris did and that of Jaguars did centuries in the future?
Quote:
Refusal
This was me putting my two cents in … when you consider what the objectives of the 2nd Star Leagues’ SLDF military aims should have been.
Quote:
hitting the clans with limited forces
Shouldn’t this read …’hitting the clans with vastly increased forces.’
At this point Task Force Serpent is not what is required … what is required is an expanded Operation Bulldog, the shock and awe of defeating all the remaining belligerent Clan forces would have placed the remaining Clan Home World Khans on the back foot … and would have led into a second Clan Invasion War … something that would have been far more believable than that of the Jihad …
Quote:
Agreement to stop IS wars
This would have been agreed upon as part of the agreement to form the 2nd Star League and the 2nd SLDF – their aim of which was to remove the Clans from the IS and thereby return all captured worlds (and by extension their peoples) to their Inner former Inner Sphere House.
Quote:
Communist isn’t the correct example
What are the important characteristics of Communism?
- Abolition of private property. Tick Ownership is by the Clan – all goods are officially the property of each clan.
- Collective ownership of means of production. Tick, centralized economic system
- Central planning. Tick, Clan Council – overarching administration of everything work targets
- Elimination of unfair gaps in income. Tick – Clan society is largely moneyless – workcredits – only the merchant caste has access to currency – Kerensky to allow the exchange of goods without having to barter.
- Provision of necessaries of life. Tick – grade determines access to amenities – including housing, transport and health care – the state decides based on your work if you need higher caloric intake, public transport, bicycle to vehicle …
Everyone is expected to work – even school-age children take apprenticeships and vocational training to supplement their education – and if they cannot they starve. This helps explains why the mortality rate is much higher among Clans than in the Inner Sphere.
And this is supposed to be the ideal Star League Era lifestyle – what a complete and utter load of ___________ !!!!!!!!!!!
And this is the system that many of you want to fight for?
Sorry but given the definition they are most definitely communists through and through.
Quote:
steal
Comprehension of what was written – my Clan conquered this IS planet, therefore everything is now owned by the Clan – we need meat, that farm has a cow – I will send the elementals to retrieve it.
An IS farmer demanded payment – thus the elemental took his head for impertinence to a warrior.
We have our meat and the Freeborn have been taught a valuable lesson.
From the point of view of the IS – theft of property.
Quote:
not all foods would be grown on each world
If the food is not being shipped to another clan then the merchant clan will just ship it as per the direction of the warrior caste.
If going over clan border lines – sell for Kerensky’s (unit of merchant currency).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/15/22 11:59 AM
45.51.181.83
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Where does it say that you must use explosives to perform all raids? And it doesn't say you have to use 1000 pound bombs or cruise missiles to do the ones that might need it.
And I can say that Amaris was a kind person. Isn't true, but then political statements tend to tell you what you want to hear, and not what is actually going on. Do you think WOB would not have been attacked if they came out and said their goal was to create the SL with them running it?
You can't figure out if the EI tatoos are cybernetic implants? The cause the host to go nuts in a short time, so they aren't? Don't cybernetic implants help organics interface with computers better among other things?
Did Confucius try to take over the entire world to become ruler? Was he under attack by other nations doing the same?
He became a religious leader, but did not rule the nation.
And how do most start. Thru war. You can switch to a non aggressive stance once you are in charge. It is to become the leader of all, ruling afterwards is different.
You do not have to defend the story. Just don't put in false facts when talking about it. This is simple. If you can not leave the alt out of a canon discussion, stay out of the canon discussion.
The reasons for not invading were given. I think they are weak at best, but that is the canon story line. The statement the other three clans lost territory is completely false.
Adam was bound for some recognition for being Nondi Stiener's child. The story line it presented was false until a retcon.
As the IS knows what happens when nukes are used, the leaders decided to avoid setting off another round of fighting like the 1st and 2nd wars. Isn't that learning from history? The IS also did not know how many, or if the invaders would resort to using nukes if they were hit by them. And with that, the use of naval weapons being considered WMD means that they would be banned from house arsenals. That is a logic flaw.
How does a casual link like people will do many things to get out of a constant war go with Amaris and the Jaguars? Maybe they decide to stop fighting or agree to them ruling to avoid the anguish caused by their war? But then the statement was about all wars, not just those two. Dictatorships have a lot of people that just live with the ruler being in place, instead of rising up against them. This is simple human actions in that type of situation. The world is full of examples.
State it as such. Saying that removal of all clans was what the trial of refusal was about is a straight up falsehood. For someone that wants to appear as a writer, the concept of using words to make a point seem to allude you. They should have, or should have been part of, would turn that from a false statement to an opinion. I am not a writer, and I know this. And back to the statement, keep alt out of this. It has no bearing, as no one here but you knows the entire story. At least canon is printed and all can read it.
The forces in Bulldog that didn't go with the task force, has to be returned to their posting to protect from further aggression as well as repair themselves. I do agree that at least some limited strikes to remove the others should have been ordered, but that might have been seen as taking on all the IS clans, not just one, creating a huge problem for the task force. The logic of not striking the others is accurate.
If not for Katherine, they may well have started hitting the other forces once they got back to the IS. Victor losing his throne while dealing with the clans meant no one could lead a multi nation force to do so. And Katherine never tried to push out at least the Falcons. So think about that before complaining that the other clans were not kicked out.
On a side note, should could well have gotten the WOB to start the process, at least to recover LA worlds.
The task force is limited resources. So hitting the clans with limited resources was implied that mean the Jaguars and Strana Mechty. I guess that needed to be said.
Lack of clan understanding shows thru again.
Depending on if trueborn or freeborn depended on where the children went. Those that flushed out of warrior training, went to apprenticeships. Some freeborns were trained as warriors in most, but not all clans.
The fact that starvation was not written about in the books, this statement doesn't hold up. Those that rejected the clans entirely would, as they had to grown their own food.
What cash did the clans use? I don't remember seeing anything of the sort.
The examples given for communism is also the staples of other governments. Private properties was more rentals. Your position gave you rights, and when you lost that position, you lost those rights.
The fact that the clans were NOT the same thing as the SLDF that they went out with, but was a take over government, the facts are inaccurate. And I do not see people saying it is the absolute best government.
One more fact. Communistic governments do have private properties. Otherwise ogliarchs could not rise up and own resource processing faciites and homes.
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Karagin
05/15/22 03:38 PM
70.118.172.64
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When looking at things, I doubt the WoB was ever really going after the Clans. Old Thomas Marik had way too much baggage to want to go for the Clans, not as the number one enemy. Given how the second the things turned on them, he ordered the release of the information that the current Thomas was an imposter, and here is how it gets me, we never see how they (WoB) convinced the whole of the FWL and other Houses to believe it. That is an issue in the plot/storyline, which makes me wonder how much faith TPTB have in the fans if they don't realize we are going to tear into things and ask questions, etc...
The EI tattoos are indeed surgically implanted, hence the Implant that is used to describe them. The SLDF stopped being the SLDF when their own Civil War broke out. At that point, the SLDF died. Old Nicky's 800 warriors broken into 20 Clans were all set up to make sure they didn't fall back into the old ways, (debatable if that actually worked given how the Clans view things), and to also revenge over the death of his father's dream.
The events of Bulldog were a bit overplayed, The idea was good, but the way it was written was not so good. The fact that they threw around the concepts of asymmetrical warfare in just about every other paragraph told me when I read it and even now, that the writers had just recently at the time gotten a full understanding of it and wanted to use said new knowledge and boy did they show that off. Then add in the very poor writing for the Jaguars and the piss poor comment made by Stackpole at GenCon over you should have picked a better faction, is telling on where many of TPTB are at FASA saw their relationship to that of the fans.
Picking the Jaguars to go after was fine, but what was stopping the Falcons from going after Lyran worlds? Or the Bears from attacking as things moved on? Yes, we know the writers didn't want those events to happen so they didn't, makes perfect sense. Once Bulldog was over we should have seen Protomech tech showing up in the hands of the Inner Sphere and both ComStar and WoB, but nope we didn't. The capture of Huntress should have gotten the Task Force members all the technical data the Jaguars had, along with the techs who could explain it all and correct me if I am wrong, but the Jaguars treated their non-warrior classes like a little better than slaves, so why did TPTB not have more of the locals jumping to join the Task Force since they had better chances with them, oh wait, I can hear a defense now, but the techs wouldn't want to go because of all the brainwashing about how evil the Inner Sphere was and soo...some would risk a new evil over one that treats them as worthless trash.
Katherine was more worried about power and bringing her brother down. She believed SHE was one who should rule everything. She was a petty fool who should have been shot by Vlad verse captured.
The Trial stopped the war, but it never was about removing the Clans, because that would not be logical. It was about limiting them and keeping them in one area of known space.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/15/22 05:32 PM
45.51.181.83
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Well written history lesson.
Nicholas created a society that was needed at the time. As with most, someone corrupt got into a leader position and changed the way things were supposed to go. It went from the all the castes having some say into how things ran, to the warrior caste being the overlords. The Wolverines opposed the change, but in order to avoid the newly formed clans from falling back into the old ways, the clan needed to be purged, as they did not want to adhere to the new government.
I could see a poor excuse that the Bears or Falcons didn't do anything, as the Wolves were ready to pounce, in order to get out of their corridor. Weak, but possible. We should have seen more action on the Wolf/Falcon borders anyways. The Wolves seemed to have lost the least amount of troops, and as stated, would want to expand their borders, as well as hinder the Falcons run to Terra when the truce ran out. As the clans didn't know what was going on, they should still focus on the end of the truce.
Once task force Serpent went into the periphery, I would assume that the clans would have been nervous. Not sure of the intel gathering, but having several regiments of troops, with warship support disappear into their back sides and supply lines.
The logic flaws, such as the techs and even normal people of the Jaguars not wanting to go to the IS is debatable. Not matter what, a couple of centuries of being told the houses were the evil that drove out the SLDF had to influence their decision. To try and get into another clan, or head to paradise, even with the brain washing would have been difficult.
No outside information or help does remove the hope of freedom.
I can see the trial did give hope that once the houses recovered a little, they could start going after the others. If the clans kept to their word, they could slowly hit back. Other things prevented such action. No matter what, Katherine was not the person to lead what should have been. Instead, the pressure to make all in the FC bow to her, caused the civil war.
In politics, I believe the simple concept of I don't care if you like me or not, support the nation, which also means not trying to use force because you don't like me. When a ruler of a nation, like in the game, there is no democracy in the game. So voting the nations leader out isn't an option. Violence is about the only way.
One last point. The queen of England does NOT have full control over her country.
Thanks for bringing up the history. I don't think I could have done it as well, Karagin.
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Karagin
05/15/22 05:54 PM
70.118.172.64
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Just offering insight. Yes, I could see the whole brainwashing part being the rendering issue with the tech, but I could also see the CapCon troops taking some by force and not giving them a choice, something that they (the techs) would be use to,
Stil the captured tech specs and other industrial items would have come back, so the Inner Sphere Houses should have gotten a better idea on how to fix some of their broken industrial items or on how to build Clan tech stuff without the need to for costly R&D. Quick history lesson, TONS of German WW2 stuff that was capture after the wars were studied and the information went into making things Western Allies wanted to be made, made better. All of the rocket and jet technology was a big prize and put to use as fast as possible. Just one example.
The salvage from the battles alone would have been a boon to the surviving Bulldog forces and the fact that they had the new IS Omnimechs that could handle Clan tech meant that they should have taken the plans and example of weapon systems back. Guess that was something either the PTB forgot, missed, or felt was just too logical so it couldn't happen because alien space bats didn't tell Victor to think of it. Along with all the other IS force commanders being idiots and not thinking of it. And some how the FWL forces and the CapCon side didn't have SAFE or Maskoriva agents along for just such an event or two...
Yeah the trial would indeed give hope to the IS and they would have been at each other throats again, but not as quick as we saw. The Combine would be more invested in reentergrating the worlds captured from the Jaguars as well as getting the Nova Cats integrated in and figuring out how to work with them, that would be a full time effort, plus watching the Bears and the FC borders. They wouldn't be jumping to play with others full time.
The Fed-Com clearly had issues. The whole Civil War was a mess from how it was presented, interesting and could have been milked for more years in real time, I think.
Then we have the other events, CapCon going after the St Ives and everyone being okay with it because CapCon was some how NOT breaking the new SL charter and all...yeah that's totally logical. And using SL troops do most of the fighting...yeah logical, oh wait no, no it wasn't at all. That action should have fractured the new SL right then and there.
Then the whole clone of Marik's son, cool story line/plot point, interesting look into how Victor was still living in daddy's shadow, and instead of him using the new info, that old Tommy wasn't the actual father, and Victor being savvy enough to go and talk with him or have a trusted colleague bring up the issue and what Victor was or wasn't going to do, nope somehow it all blows up into a new round of fighting and is then used by the WoB, wait what, they already knew he was a fake, yeah the more I look at things post Bulldog the more I see why my liver hates me at times.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/15/22 06:03 PM
70.118.172.64
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Moral victories only work in history books, even for the Battletech universe setting since each power presents itself as the MORAL righteous savior of humanity, blah, blah, blah. The only victories that matter are the ones that your side wins and keeps winning in order to defeat your enemies.
Victor failed to see this and it cost him, well everything. Sunny boy saw it but failed to understand it and while he regained things, he didn't really make the CapCon a superpower either. Katherine never understood it, nor did she understand the geopolitical setting she was trying to play in. She was good at regicde and that was about it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/15/22 07:26 PM
70.118.172.64
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Let's jump to the current timeline, so Alric has Terra, and the Wolves are the ilClan, yet not all the Clans are playing that game, not yet. And the Houses could really care less. Lyrans are going after Falcon worlds, wonder how that's going to play out for him and the remaining Falcons.
The Jaguars are back, pretty sure that's going to be the controversial thing for the other Clans and the Combine. Speaking of the Combine they have seriously put the hurt on the FedSuns and don't seem to be getting ready to give up anytime soon. And the CapCon is looking to lock horns with the ilClan and its military, that might be a bloody nose for both.
The reality for the what was the FWL, well it's a mess, not seeing them do much of anything for a while. The Periphery is doing its own thing of staying right where they are. New powers come and go.
As for the other known groups, mercs are still around, some more pissed off than others, and some just there for the fighting and glory.
As I have said before, lots of opportunities for the players to really dig and enjoy things, as long as we are given time to do so, and that is supported. One reason everyone liked the 3025 settings, was it got support, and it wasn't rushed. Clans came along with got time to digest that. Everything else, oh look new TRO, oh look new TRO, oh look..oh look new plotline oh look whole new game with click bases, we can see which version folks wanted there...
The reality right now is the PTB could do a lot and give us one hell of a Renaissance (no pun) of the game and setting and really move things along to a stronger point.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/15/22 09:21 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
(The) … use of explosives to perform raids?
When ordered to perform a demolitions raid how is this then to be undertaken without the use of explosives? And when ordered to use a particular explosive (including a WMD) are you going to disobey? and then what if you are subsequently brought up on charges – disobeying orders, dereliction of duties, and cowardice in the face of the enemy (to start with) during your court-martial trial? …
Quote:
WOB … came out and said their goal was to create the SL with them running it?
Question – what were the events that brought on the Jihad era?
Could it be the dissolution of the 2nd Star League and thus the 2nd SLDF who’s remit was the destruction of the Clans, to which was also the religious dogma objective (their Saint’s Prophesy - Blake) of the Manei Domini, thus disobeying the will of God ….?
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Cybernetics
Clan Medical Technology … Advanced regenerative techniques that enables them to regrow nearly any body part (organic) Vs. WOB Medical Technology … Advanced cybernetic techniques that enables them to replace with advanced machinery nearly any body part (metallic).
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Confucianism
Semantics again?
Do you expect the Clans to be around for 3,500 years, as by the year 3000 that is how old Confucianism will be … also what percentage of the population are a part of Confucianism compared to that of the Clans?
How many countries have an official creed / religious belief that is endorsed by their state?
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Just don’t put in false facts when talking about it.
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Adam Steiner
And you complain when my information deviates from canon …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nondi_Steiner
Children – Lisa, Ivan and Richard
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Adam_Steiner
… descended from the Simon Borge-Steiner a cadet branch of the main Steiner line, thus placing him about 8 to 10 generations separate from the current main family.
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Isn’t that learning from history?
When one side uses WMDs usually the other reciprocates in kind other wise if nothing occurs this just emboldens the one who used the WMDs to threaten their use again and again in order to dominate others …
Isn’t this what we have learnt from history?
Warships are the biggest gun on the battlefield and they have used them twice – as wouldn’t a House leader come to the conclusion that doing nothing will only embolden Clan warriors to use them again, and again … that is unless you have a bloodhound and an Ouija Board as well as oracles of Delphi, or entrails to read that may provide the information as to the Clans future use of WMDs …
Question – at the time of the use of Clan warship weapons as WMDs how many warships did the IS have (ans. – nil), or how many Drop-ships were converted to PT (pocket) warships to engage clan warships (ans. – nil)? So how can naval weapons be considered WMDs and be banned from House arsenals when they do not have them to start with? Yes, therefore, this is a logic flaw? As the only WMDs IS Houses maintained at this time are either nuclear, chemical, or biological.
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Dictatorships have a lot of people that just live with the ruler being in place, instead of rising up against them …. The world is full of examples.
What happens to those who do not have guns when they rise up against those who do? As isn’t this why guerrilla warfare / resistance military forces and the supply of military weapons from sympathetic governments occurs?
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The Great Trial of Refusal
Question – what is the polar opposite event – what occurs if the Clans are victorious? What happens next?
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If not for Katherine … Victor losing his throne … meant no one could lead
Really?
Whitting Conference of 3061
Katherine was attempting to become the next First Lord …
ComStar was placed in the position of casting the deciding vote …
Focht Resigned and Victor succeeded him, as Precentor Martial, and subsequently voted against Katherine
Theodore becomes first lord ….
Therefore most definitely yes, Victor is in a position to lead a second campaign against the Clans – what is stopping him is the collective will of the entire members of 2nd SL to undertake a war so close to “the conclusion” of the invasion through the Great Refusal.
Problem is any realist would tell you that the Great Refusal is a sham, it is just a piece of paper, the same as that between WW1 and WW2 and during the WW2, the period that would become to known as the Phony War – an unjust peace – and if you study history then you will clearly understand that an unjust peace leads to an unjust war …
The real issue is that Victor commenced a civil war based not upon hard facts as to Katherines wrongdoing but on his personal animosity toward her. That is in all reality she was a far better ruler of the FC than him and his personal ego got the better of him when his brother was ‘assassinated’ (kidnapped). What would have happened if the investigators on the ground had discovered that the bomb was a cover for the kidnapping would have changed everything – but he went off at Katherine half-cocked with no proof whatsoever and placed the IS and the 2nd SL in a position that it could not respond to the Falcon Wolf War … Thus rather than keeping harping on it is all Katherines fault the true fault lies with Victor and his insufferable belief in Military solutions achieve results (i.e. yes he most definitely has a Napoleonic psychological complex.). History should judge Victor as being a very poor leader, abandoning his post as First Price, to go swanning about as unit commander of a military unit, thus in all respects Katherine had no choice but to assume the throne to stabilize the House politically, economically, and militarily.
And this the truth regarding this period of time … “So think about that … [why] the other Clans were not kicked out.”
As for WOB – again they required to a member of the 2nd SL before they could act – also we do not know if they were ready as a front line combat unit at the start of The FC Civil War.
Quote:
Lack of Clan understanding shows through again.
Yes I agree, if you go to https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans
Then go to the sub-heading Goods and Services, 3rd Paragraph starting with Civilian caste members … Keep reading and you will come across …. “Everyone is expected to work …”
The fact that starvation is written about means that it does stand up.
Cash – Look under the Sub-heading entitled High Finance …
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Communism
Then put forth a definition and prove it!
Who owns the rental properties – the state or other private individuals?
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Position gave you rights
For the political elite i.e the Warrior Caste this provided them rights – however can this be said for all other castes?
Suggest looking at the sub-heading entitled Law and Order and through the use of “brutal authoritative measures” – remind you of the old NKVD?
And just as the Soviets had deportation so too the Clans had the Prinz Eugen (Alcatraz) Facility.
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and I do not see people saying it is the absolute best government
What happens to those that say it is not a great government?
Quote:
communist governments do have private properties. Otherwise oligarchs could not rise up and own resource processing facilities and homes
Education system – google search would have helped here …
Communism – Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic – Government 1918 – 1990 Federal Marxist-Leninist one-party parliamentary socialist soviet republic
Russia – Government 1990 onwards – federal democratic state …
These are two completely different government systems …
So when deciding to join the clans may I suggest getting out the Clan variant to the hammer and sickle flag, crack open a bottle of Vodka, and start learning the Clan variant to ‘The Internationale’ as the Clans are most definitely an example of a neo Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic set within the BattleTech Universe.
‘The Internationale’ in English - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcXNXKtu8z4
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As with most, someone corrupt got into a leader position and changed the way things were supposed to go ….
If you read Betrayal of Ideals you will see that Nicholas’ idea of the Clans went exactly to plan as it was he who corrupted and destroyed any remnant of the SLDF, post his father loosing the plot completely and becoming a petty dictator during which the entire SLDF suffered PTSD during the Exodus …, in his plan to destroy everything this father cared for due to the fact that he was never acknowledged by his father whist on Terra … Thus what we see is a deeply disturbed individual, possibly psychotic, who’s only aim is to destroy the SLDF and convert it into something Amaris would recognise (yet on a vastly more disturbed level of psyopithy).
Quote:
a couple of centuries of being told the Houses were evil …
And yet the black market should have provided them with illicit goods from the IS – such as vids – courtesy of Psy-ops teams that should have made them to question what they were told … and once doubt sets in … how long until the revolution starts?
Quote:
The Queen of England does NOT have full control over her country
No kidding, it’s a constitutional monarchy.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/15/22 10:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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As the original statement went, not all raids required explosives. That does not mean all raids can be accomplished without them. When stated raids can be done without blowing up worlds, the first thing was that was posted back was basically that was impossible to do.
The Jihad came about as WOB was pissed that they could not become first lord by blackmailing everyone, or intimidating them with their forces. So they went out of their way to show just how much like Amaris they actually were. Bombing worlds in a fit of rage.
Where does it say that implants that help control machines is not cybernetics? Where does it say that only robotic limbs is cybernetics? Might need to actually read dictionaries. The definitions coming up suggests the comprehensive and reading between the lines is not working well.
Yeah, you reverted by to semantics with Confucius post. The response was ruling nations in the time they were alive. Religion has done so in only a few cases, and they seem to turn corrupt quickly.
I made a mistake in thinking Adam was Nondi's.
False facts yet again. Warships were used only once in the game. The second was extortion. Had the government stood up to the Falcons, it would have been found out as a bluff. So again, the statement of being used twice is false.
And yet another false fact with the number of warships the IS had. Comstar had a few, but they were not known to the IS. It would also appear WOB had a few as well. They didn't build them when in the FWL before the truce.
And yet massive uprisings don't happen when weapons are supplied to those in oppressive governments. Now with the clans, where are these weapons coming from? Foreign governments didn't exist in the clans home worlds. The bandit caste stole their weapons and supplies. Yet the masses didn't rise up to threaten the clans leadership, Which is the whole point of this scenario. There was no outside help for 200 plus years.
The clans would send out challenges to the Ilclan, and probably work on taking all the IS as clan property. Why does this need to be said? Go bark at the developers.
Katherine would not have given any forces to the push to remove the other clans. She figured he would use them to take back his throne, as Sun Tzu took back the St. Ives. With that, Sun Tzu would not have sent troops either. Marik and WOB were concerned that Victor would take on WOB for Terra. Does any of this make sense? Also, Katherine was involved with the Wolves, so any such push to remove them would have shown she was a traitor to the IS. OOOOOHHH NOOOOO! Katherine was a full blown traitor to the IS?
I'm sorry. Did you read the same books everyone else did? Not your own made up ones, but the actual story line that Victor did not want to start the civil war, but was forced into it as Katherine was doing everything she could to hurt him, or remove him from all power? Anymosity? Victor could well had lead the forces from task force Serpent to remove Katherine by heading straight to the throne room, and most would have followed him. He stepped aside to prevent the deaths of some many people, which Katherine went ahead and took trying to secure her treasonous usurping the throne.
Katherine had no choice but to manipulate Yvonne until she stepped down? Instead of trying to keep the FC together, she schemed to destroy it. After she had done so, she found out she could have taken it all instead of destroying it, and started the civil war because of it.
And using your own words, Katherine did not try to take the first lord position by helping Victor take on the FWL. Had they done so, the CC and FWL would have been hurt a lot more then the LC. But no. She kept the LC out of it to hurt her brother. Yeah. Obtain the first lord thru conquering the enemy. That didn't happen here.
What black market? The clans did not have contact with the IS on the home worlds. Only a few units sent in for recon had contact. So again, false information being put up to try and support a fake position. Only after the trial of refusal happened, did the 'black market' have any influence on the clans home worlds. Unless you are trying to suggest the Diamond Sharks were the black market? Who were their buyers?
Oh yeah. Psy ops teams. That didn't exist during the time frame laid out in the statements. So who knew where the clans went right after they left the IS to the time the began the invasion? Who made that trip to perform the Psy ops during that time?
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ghostrider
05/15/22 10:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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My opinion has been stated a few times on why the IS didn't take clan tech. It would have made further attacks on the whole IS ineffective. So to allow things like the Jihad, they had to limit weapons to pea shooters again.
Every war tends to do the same thing. Pure greed start wars, but all leaders try to hide behind the patriotic stance or religion saying it was their solemn duty to kill the enemy civies in order to take what they wanted.
Now that is not saying those that are attacked are innocent, but they don't try and take the enemy's lands most of the time. A few times one is attack was from things like trying an assassination or stealing things that set off the other.
All the IS houses were based on taking lands from others. Wars were fought to create the states. Even the LC had a few conflicts to 'unite' them.
The point of Thomas not being Joshua's father, should well have been made public, as Thomas tried the grieving father role. Granted, it would have been looked down upon at first, but then Victor did not deny the replacement. This could well have set off the Comstar/WOB conflict. This would have shown something was up in Comstar, which would have destroyed the little trust the IS had for them, and really caused issues for WOB. To find out Comstar had pulled Thomas out and kept him alive and rebuilt him some, would have caused the rest to freak out. Then to find out the fake Thomas was a plant, and was friendly to WOB would have caused major issues for WOB. The basically did what Victor was accused of.
It might be interesting to see how that story line would have turned out, had it happened.
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Karagin
05/15/22 11:21 PM
70.118.172.64
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The freak out by the FWL, who according to canon, because of their dislike of anyone with cyborg implants or other similar items should have been enough to toss out the WoB. But here is another case of the canon being ignored. IF Victor had exposed things right after the opening attacks against him by Marik and done so with say an apology that yes he did keep the double ruse going, here is why and now he is going to come fully clean and boom the current Tommy is not the father and in fact not even related to the Marik family. I can agree this would have shattered a lot of plans for a lot of groups.
The idea that the IS would have gotten the tech for Clan specs doesn't mean they get Clan weapons magically, they would still need to build or retool factories, and that takes time, not an overnight thing. I would say that if they had taken the tech, by 3078 or 3080 we would see the first full run of stuff from IS factories and we would also have seen a lot more of the older stuff upgraded since they would be able to repair and reopen older lines with the new industrial tech.
As for a black market within the Clans, sure Dark Caste would be running it but it would not have IS stuff in it, it would be their home world stuff. Now the IS Clans would have a black-market but that would be a mixed bag and the competing factions with in the under world would still be trying to do what they were doing BEFORE the Clans to took the worlds.
See yet another area the PTB didn't really go into. We never got to see full how the Clans dealt with the crime syndicates in LC worlds or how the Bears or Wolves dealt with the ones on their conquered worlds and would the Dark Caste have followed on the heels of the invasion, all of this was another lost possibility of scenarios and stories for books.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/16/22 03:03 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Commencement of Jihad
The WOB do not want to rule, as Quoted by Saint Conrad Toyama https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Conrad_Toyama
“The truly ambitious do not seize the throne; they push others to do so and then rule from the shadows.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tharkad and https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Word_of_Blake
“With the dissolution of the Star League, however, the interpretation of a prophecy that the dominant faction of the Word believed in was destroyed, which provoked them into violence.”
The Prophecy regarding their ascendance concerns spreading Blake’s truth to the rest of the Inner Sphere. They believed that heretical elements had denied them their rightful position as Templars spreading the good word (as prophesied by their Saint) – and in their wrath they went to war to ensure the fulfillment of the prophesy.
Military
– 3058 Militia – 8 divisions
– Conquest of Terra – 10 divisions
– By the beginning of the Jihad in 3067, the Militia is rumoured to contain over 40 divisions …
Quote:
Cybernetics
In this case it means the cyborg.
Quote:
semantics – warships were only used once in the game
Turtle Bay
Palmyra Disaster
As for ComStar and ComGuard – did anyone consider within the First Circuit that their navy should join the either the FC, DC or Rasalhague whist Focht was undertaking a secret mission to the Clans?
Still does not change the fact that a WMD was utilised and the IS Leaders did absolutely nothing to protect their citizens from a future strike.
Quote:
uprisings don’t happen when weapons are supplied to those in oppressive governments.
Can you provide an example?
Where are these weapons coming from? – Home Guards, hidden manufacturing facilities, the House they promised allegiance to, corporations smuggling them in …
As for the Clans – they can fudge the figures whist producing them for their warrior overlords, hidden manufacturing facilities …
Quote:
Masses didn’t rise up to threaten the clan leadership
You do realise that to ensure a successful revolution the revolutionary military must be as well equipped as that of the Clans Military – that is Mechs, Aerospace, Power Armour, and Warships …
Or, all clan scientists change the DNA of all warriors over a three generation period that once activated will either kill them outright with the introduction of a harmless chemical in their food or drink or will turn them into obedient slaves due to being addicted to a chemical that keeps them alive as long as they obey.
Quote:
Katherine would not have given any forces to the push to remove the other clans.
Really? … you do realize if she can organise the destruction of both the Falcons and the Wolves (Post Falcon Wolf War) this would make her incredibly popular within the FC and the IS and would also prove to a lock in her desire to be the next First Lord …
And as for her dealings with the Wolves … unless they can her assist her, she really wouldn’t care about destroying them. Also any prisoners can become Bondsman, to her personally, and thus be used against her enemies …
So YAYYYYYYY Katherine is the saviour of the IS …
Quote:
Victor did not want to start a civil war
Then who was his doppelganger who was in a FS uniform, in front of a Camera, making a declaration of war against Katherine?
Quote:
Katherine was doing everything she could to hurt him
And how many people within the IS know this?
Quote:
utilizing task force serpent for his own end
Which would legitimize her position as the Head of the FC, and would ensure that he would not become Precentor Martial when Focht Resigns and would also ensure ant relationship with Omi is now impossible …
Quote:
Her treasonous usurping of the throne
Sorry but all legal and above board when Yvonne stepped down for her older sister who is legally 2nd in line for the throne as Victor neither has a wife or a child – though where she did her military service to become the head of the FS might need explaining.
Quote:
helping Victor take on the FWL
Er …. Is this the Joshua incident – Operation Guerrero? In 3057 where as the Whitting Conference occurred in 3058 thus by remaining neutral it assisted her cause for First Lord and ensured that Victor could not attain the position.
And this in no way assisted to promote her position as a woman of peace and Victor’s as being treacherous in the same light as a previous Liao.
Quote:
What Black Market?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Diamond_Shark#Merchant_Marines
First wave built a trading fleet – 8 Merchant JumpShips
Who undertook commerce with Clan garrisons.
By the Third wave – an additional 6 Merchants were added and were also “trading non-military goods directly with native business …”
It was only later that they agreed to head home due to internal clan warrior politics …
How many re-supply ships visited the IS and how many took home souvenirs of their voyage as most merchant marines do?
So the question is what were they able to smuggle home to the clan home worlds and what do you think they could have got for it with simple barter when they got home – or in the case of vids from the IS how many copies did they make and sell on the black market for goods, just as every enterprising individual would when faced with the prospect of a better life through access to a monopoly of entertainment goods…
So again a real position put up to support a real position!
And as for psy-ops teams – we have them now so why would they become obsolete in the future?
Quote:
why the IS didn’t take clan tech
Delusions when it comes to reality?
Quote:
Thomas not being Joshua’s Father
And destabilize the IS just as the 2nd SL was being formed? The aim is to form a coalition to fight against the Clans not destroy your only chance before it begins.
Also, in cases like these it is better to put the information to one side, and then use it when you need to ensure compliance when it is needed most.
Quote:
FWL and cyborg implants
Toss out the WOB – problem was this was being completed in secret so how would the FWL know?
Victor has no concept of what is to be a father – if he did then he would have realized the utter barbaric act he had committed upon Thomas.
Quote:
When the IS gets clan weapons
Depends upon the complexity of the technology – however one to two years post commencement of Invasion sounds about right for mass production to commence and with a complete understanding of all clan tech 2 years after Huntress and them for complete diffusion throughout the IS – 10 years after Huntress.
Quote:
crime syndicates
As long as they stay out of sight they would not have any problem what so ever – The Mr Plod of the Clans id more the punch first – rather than displaying any intellect kind of Coppa.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/16/22 11:04 AM
45.51.181.83
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So WOB didn't want to rule, yet the very response shows they did. Ruling from the throne, or directly behind it is the same thing. You give the orders and everyone else follows it. A mouth piece set up to take the blame and be assassinated has been done before.
If you mean cyborg, then say cyborg. Cybernetics covers a lot of things. This is like saying water, but meaning fresh water, not ocean water.
The Palmyra Disaster was long after the 3050 to 3060 time line. As your argument is about the clans using warships during that time, this does not count to that argument. If you want to try, then I guess all the houses that used warships in the game need to be run out. That would leave maybe Comstar left.
How many dictatorships are in the world today? In the game, the CC is one such nation that oppresses their civilians. They have outside forces providing weapons, and yet not many uprisings. The CC provides weapons to rebels, yet the citizens in the FS didn't go into uprisings. All the houses have provided weapons to rebels, yet most don't result in the massive uprisings. Same with the periphery.
And there are nobles that suppress their populations and yet don't result in major uprisings.
You do realize that to ensure a successful revolution the revolutionary military must be as well equipped as that of the Clans Military
So the discussion of uprisings in the clans was pushed, yet this just comes out? Wonder why there aren't going to be uprisings in the clans?
Love that little word. IF. Katherine couldn't do so on her own, and refused to give Victor ANY access to more units, so instead of being the great ruler, she becomes yet another one to fall to greed and self importance. The clans would have been pushed back, and the FC ruler of the IS, had she not been delusional and thought only she could rule. Had she helped Victor, not tried to humiliate him, the FC would be in charge of a new SL, or just be in charge of the IS.
It is very possible, that had Katherine not turned on him, should would have been the power behind the throne.
Well lets see. How many IS people went back to the clan home worlds with the Sharks? Oh yeah. Must have been billions that were all special ops propaganda forces. The only psy ops going on was what Chandy and a few others were doing. Sending luxury goods to pervert the clans. This is canon facts. There was no one going back to preach about freedom, which is what has been pushed. Once Serpent got there, then just talking with the masses, would have shown better results. But there wasn't this push to get agents onto the home worlds to pervert the clans.
Thomas was a replacement. The same thing he accused Victor of. As the story say, Victor was NOT going to allow the replacement to actually get on the throne, unlike the supporters that put Thomas there. Do you know why the rest of the nations allowed Victor to lead the troops? Because they trusted him more then anyone else to do the job and not try to use those forces to attack rival nations.
So the fact Thomas was not Marik, was something that caused the IS to become very unstable. Look at what he did with WOB's Jihad. Removing him would have stopped that, or had started the war that much earlier. But then that was WOBs wanting to rule, not fight the clans.
Did you read the same books everyone else did? The replacement would have 'died' when things calmed down. Everyone knew Joshua was not going to survive his ailment. In all that time, Thomas never tried to see his child. So where is the outrage to that?
The FWL knew what was going on, as the worlds they operated on where having issues with WOB. Thomas told them it was nothing. Hmmm. The leader of WOB covering for them. And yes, I know at the time, the FWL didn't know Thomas was their leader.
Really think the crime syndicates would not show up on the clans radar? Their love for guns would have set off hunts for those that had them. Citizens, with the exception of maybe hunters, would not be allowed to own guns. This is the clans we are talking about. So an assault rifle, smg or some such would draw the clans down upon anyone using such an item. Also, the clans would be looking for smugglers bringing in weapons to arm insurgents. So maybe a rethink of this subject is in order.
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Requiem
05/16/22 04:48 PM
101.185.82.214
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So WOB didn’t want to rule, yet the very response shows they did.
Deep sigh … no what they wanted was to fulfill a religious prophesy, in which would expand their religion – and Saint Blake’s Teachings, and to do that they needed the Star League to be reformed. This is why they were returning a warship to Tharkad – as a peace offering to plead with them to once more reform the League …
When rebuffed they could see no other way to fulfill the prophesy but to conquer all Capitols – kill all House Lords and replace them, then rebuild the Star League to ensure the prophesy is fulfilled.
The entire Jihad is to ensure a religious prophesy is fulfilled through the Star League …
And yes I too find the plot very convoluted …
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Cybernetics
You ask for accuracy of cannon writing, then when provided …look at the following site
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Manei_Domini within it the term Cybernetics is used describe the enhancements provided. Whereas a more accurate term is Cyborg. I am just utilizing the canon terms provided by TPTB writers – as requested by you, if you desire change may I suggest you take it up with them.
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Palmyra Disaster
Originally stated there was only use of one Orbital bombardment (period) … where as correct statement ‘one orbital bombardment within the Clan Invasion Period’ ….
Question – How did any of the IS house lords know that this was going to be the only strike as no one was contacted regarding this? Sorry but I stand by my assertion that this is incredibly pitiful writing that produces a wake of absolute stupidity thereafter when it comes to the major character’s development at that point in time.
If you put warships in the game then you need to also place a restriction in the game otherwise everyone will utilize them – much like nukes – they are in the game and sooner or later they will be used as a first strike weapon all the time by some …. So how do you remove this from the game if you don’t like it? Once in then it is too late to stop proliferation …
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dictatorships – and yet not many uprisings
Can I put in … ‘that we know of’, as how many secret organisations and criminal gangs may be working behind the scenes to bring the CC down?
Also, indoctrination process / vast army of secret police / vast number within the population are informers must first be recognised and fixed prior to any uprisings.
And most uprisings require heat and pressure – and the writers have yet to apply this to their story – so we get meh …
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Clan uprisings
The problem is that if you want a clan revolution story the best way to go about it is through the dark caste that has been secretly building a massive military over the past century or two in order to free humanity from the Clans.
And I really cannot see the writers putting this in any time soon … or for that matter the return of Clan Wolverine to free them …
So, unless people write it themselves not going to happen as the writers are way to enamoured with their creation to nerf it any time soon – even of the Clans represent all the darkest, hateful, destructive, repressive part of humanity … i.e. a dystopian nightmare!
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Katherine and the Clans
In all reality the cannon writing is not the best and at that time they believed their pet clan forces could do no wrong and if they did then they could fix it in two seconds flat (rebuilding their numbers from other clans) and the IS would never take advantage of the situation – which is once more as about realistic as a cat flap in a nuclear submarine.
Sorry but once more the writers leave the reservation to, in my opinion, a place that should be, to a place where you just want to bang your head against the wall …
Katherine could never be the power behind the throne, it is just not in her DNA. This is where if you want an evil Katherine in the game – then do it and don’t stuff around with this tepid cannon version. The only person keeping her from the throne is Victor – this is the only person that she needs dead so any assassination plots will automatically centre on him alone!
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psy-ops
How many merchant marines do you know that don’t collect souvenirs / entertainment products ? the answer here is none.
The real issue is not how many IS psy-ops people went to the clan home worlds – it is how many books and Vids went home to the clan home worlds – it is the concept of an idea a vision a hope a dream. Once a new idea has taken root within the people of the clan home worlds then watch the sparks fly … how big is a clan computer and how large are their memories – how many millions of books / vids can be maintained on a single computer?
Then dissemination of ideas throughout Clan home worlds via the black market this is what will start the progression for change ….
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Trusting Victor
Really then what was Marshal Morgan Hasek-Davion doing?
In all reality he was the only one within the story pushed forward to it … in reality if you look at his character closely you will realis he is not that great a warrior and is also a pitifully flawed individual … the only reason he was given the job was he was the son of the fox and people were hoping that the apple did not fall far from the tree …
As for Thomas – he was actually doing a good job in the FWL so why would you create waves that could tip the boat over if don’t have to do so … and removing him would not have stopped the WOBs jihad …
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where is the outrage
In the death of a child where you are not allowed to be there for the passing, when it could have been rectified – he could have been sent home to be with the ones he loved before the end - there will be outrage.
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Clan crime syndicates
The average Clan Copper is not that bright, most are little better than thugs – so as long as all weapons remain hidden and out of sight no one is really going to go looking for them.
It is all about keeping them hidden until the day the revolution commences …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/16/22 09:18 PM)
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ghostrider
05/16/22 07:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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Religious prophecy runs with ruling everything. This runs into the only religion that can be done is the one we are in. All others need to vanish. And once we are all that is left, we make the rules. Sounds like trying to rule it all. Nothing in the history of WOB suggests anything other then becoming the ruling entity of the known galaxy, even the clans. The excuse using the clans was how they were going to gain support until it was too late to stop them.
The problem with cybernetics being used in the posts is that you said the EI implants were not cybernetics.
The argument for the clan invasion to remove warships from the scene said there was two incidences of clan warships bombarding worlds. There was only one bombardment. The Palmyra incident came far after the invasion was over.
Every nation has those that are trying to bring down the current government. Most will never get further then a local shoot out. It will not be the masses uprising.
The only known clan uprising might, and I say might, be considered was the Wolverines. And it wasn't an uprising, so much as the controlling people moving to remove them from a position to start a full uprising, before they knew to.
Sorry. I thought all leaders, according to you, was in the race to be the first lord. How does allowing an effective enemy retain leadership position help that? You praise Katherine for trying to do so, yet not saying Thomas should have been set into a civil war? The entire history of the FS and FWL relationship was spies causing resentment against house Marik in the FWL. Didn't matter if they were good or not. Other leaders were constantly doing the same to all other leaders, with the DC and CC doing it to their own subordinates. Showing Thomas wasn't Thomas, would have given Victor a boost of support from the FC citizens, even with Katherine trying to sabotage his efforts. It may well have cause the FWL to revolt completely against the Marik family. This would have destroyed the WOBs support in the FWL, and maybe even started the Jihad early, or stopped it entirely.
Where in the books did it say Joshua would survive the trip home? Everything I read, says when Victor took over the FC after Katherine assassinated her mother, Joshua would not survive the trip. And it is very doubtful Thomas would have visited New Avalon. But again. Where is the outrage that Thomas never went to see his 'son'?
The use of weapons would bring the searches. They do not have to be seen, but just used. This would cause the clans to do a search, which may include, but not limited to them slowly killing innocent people until the perpetrators are given up/surrender. They would search everything until the weapons are found. Clan troopers are not stupid, they are just not used to dealing with life outside of the clans. There is a difference.
Most people don't check their vehicles for explosive devices, until the get a threat. It is just human nature.
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Requiem
05/16/22 09:17 PM
101.185.82.214
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Religious prophecy runs with ruling everything
Groan!
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orbital bombardments
So do you believe that the House leaders were correct?
That is to say – We will allow the Clans to retain their warships, in which they can utilize an orbital bombardment at any time they desire – even on our capitol worlds if they desire – as the use of nuclear armaments is no longer part out defence strategy?
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insurrection
It comes down to social heat and pressure – the greater of which will inflame the insurrection against the government – however in the Battletech Universe this must transcend worlds.
What occurred with the Wolverines was a long time coming – what it really shows is how cowered the other clans had become … and how they had lost sight of their oaths when they were once apart of the SLDF.
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how does allowing an effective enemy retain a leadership position help that?
Simply put the era of the Succession Wars are now on hold until the Clans have been dealt with. At this point in time leaders must hide their knives and work together in order to combat the new enemy that is threatening all the IS.
It does not suit anyone if you destabilize the alliance in the interest of personal gain – what this just shows is how deranged a leader you are.
With the removal of the Clans we can then return you to your normal broadcasting station and the Succession wars
can recommence once again.
What is your long term strategy in dethroning Thomas what next?
Who will take the throne – will there be a civil war – how does this help you when you need the FWL to fight the Clans
What if you just sent him a note that said I know who you really are …. Lets have a talk … and then see what compromises you can get out of him to keep you quite. Putting him on leash may be more beneficial in the short term …
Also destabilizing the Alliance only assists the Clans
Also at this stage in history no one even knows that ComStar will split in two and in so doing form the WOB
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Where in the books did it say Joshua would survive the trip home?
Even with a command circuit in place I doubt he would have survived the trip- however that is not the issue – the issue is that you took action as soon as you knew and you did everything in your power to get him home in time – this is what truly matters here.
Victor allowing him to die alone shows what an utter __________ he truly is.
By asking about the outrage – suggest asking someone who is a father to begin with.
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The use of weapons would bring searches
So you let them find one or two – is not as if they have the intellect to actually understand that there are multiple vast hordes of weapons that have been established and hidden.
Just finding one or two and they would be happy and then say job well done now lets go and beat someone for the fun of it ….
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Clan troopers are not stupid
Really? – they would stick out so badly wherever they went. They do not have the ability to blend in and their use of language and understanding of how to use local slang words, let alone understand the history of and the importance of local sports teams to blend in when you have to discuss the local game / team members at the pub ….
As for checking for explosives – this comes down to who you are and how paranoid you are ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/16/22 09:19 PM)
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Karagin
05/16/22 09:49 PM
70.118.172.64
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It is clear that we are having a very odd conversation here. Two of us are using canon and pointing out issues, but keeping things grounded in what could be done logically and the other side is playing made-up Fan Fiction to counter everything. That is what I am seeing.
Joshua would not survive the trip home, which is already established. Anything else is fan fiction. My comments on the organized crime on Clan worlds were an attempt to show that some things would go back to normal on many worlds. Or close to it. It was not an invitation to run off on a what-if fan fiction scenario. The Clans would crackdown anytime the crime groups did anything that brought them to any major attention. Even the Dark Caste treads lightly.
WoB wanted to reinvent mankind, they wanted to save it from itself and they wanted revenge on the Hosue Lords for destroying Star League, etc...and they wanted power, the power to remake everything in their twisted version of Blake's ideas. Just like every dictator and crazy prophet has wanted to do since the city-states were formed along the Tigris and other rivers. Dressing up domination in religion doesn't change what it is.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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