Karagin
06/13/02 08:21 AM
63.173.170.205
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No same topic, different views on it and neither of us want's to objectivelly see the other's side. So I am ending my input and leaving it as it is...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
06/13/02 08:35 AM
64.83.29.242
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Could you at least show me how we're talking about the same thing?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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novakitty
06/13/02 09:34 AM
209.242.100.230
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Do not take this the wrong way, but humanity has never been good at peaceful resolution of disputes.
Historically, peace follows victory in war.
meow
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Karagin
06/13/02 09:36 AM
63.173.170.205
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Go and re-read my posting, it should be very clear that we have been talking about the same topic from the start, but it seems that is not the case and since I am tired of saying the same thing over and over and have you or Nathan tell me I am wrong because you feel other wise is getting old.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Spartan
06/13/02 09:47 AM
172.171.162.65
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>>How did people get the impression I'm for bombarding cities?
I didn't get that impression. That was just an example of how they go against the basis of their philosophy. I'm not trying to say what the practice is but rather what the theory behind it says.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Spartan
06/13/02 09:56 AM
172.171.162.65
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>>they use mechanized warfare to settle disputes other people would've settled at the negotiating table.
But remember the vast majority of the Exodus fleet was military personnel. The only thing they've known for, what was it, a decade? was war. The only way they really know how to handle a dispute is to fight it out. War is what they know.
Also, they're competing for limited resources. There were originally 20 clans fighting for the resources of 5 worlds. In Btech terms that's not much to work with. And when you have a society founded by soldiers, well... the result is "civilized and honorable" warfare.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Spartan
06/13/02 10:00 AM
172.171.162.65
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In spite of my arguments to the clanners defense I think it's not a bad idea for them to waste their resources. The quicker they start to run out, the quicker they have to actually do something about and that for them means go to war with the IS. War with the IS means the Houses will need mercs, and hence I can be employed.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Cray
06/13/02 01:17 PM
64.83.29.242
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Oh, absolutely. The post-Exodus Civil War SLDF exiles had a chance to be free of WAR. I'm sure they'd need a decent police force by 3050 and would have plenty of criminal violence had they followed a traditional capitalist/democratic route after the War.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/13/02 01:21 PM
64.83.29.242
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[edit: this reply seems to be to a since-deleted post]
Y'know, had the post-Exodus Civil War SLDF Exiles chosen a path that endorsed using violence in the "Clan Way" only for important international/civil rights/defense issues, I might even praise the way they limited violence.
But they use violence to settle every sort of dispute, and set up a society divided (originally) 20 ways to encourage "international" disputes. Legitimized, encouraged violence in a society that saps all its productivity in the name of a deadbeat warrior caste...that's absolutely the wrong way to go about minimizing the waste of warfare.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (06/13/02 01:30 PM)
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Cray
06/13/02 01:29 PM
64.83.29.242
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>But remember the vast majority of the Exodus fleet was military personnel. The only thing they've known for, what was it, a decade? was war? War is what they know.
Warriors of Kerensky makes it clear that the SLDF exiles had burned the craving for war out of their blood by the time the Clans pacified the Pentagon worlds. That was another 20 years of war that killed off (IIRC) 25% of the SLDF exiles.
The demilitarized SLDF folks were quite ready to accept any "peaceful" rule, including Nicholas's.
>Also, they're competing for limited resources.
I absolutely do not accept this argument. The SLDF exiles had NO human competition for literally hundreds of thousands of cubic light-years around them. They had vast mineral wealth for the taking. Did they build mining colonies? Did they build scout ships? Did they build factories?
Yes, some. But they also wasted a huge amount of military effort stealing resources from their neighbors. After the Pentagon campaign, every mech they built, every warship they maintained, every battle they fought was a criminal waste of resources.
The destruction of a Clan trinary represents the investment needed to almost build a jumpship or a couple of dropships, or a factory, or housing for thousands of people.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/13/02 01:34 PM
64.83.29.242
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I've re-read your posts and you did not once address how much would be saved had the battles (big or small) not taken place to begin with. Can you quote that message?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/13/02 01:35 PM
64.83.29.242
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Hey, I like that thought chain.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
06/13/02 01:47 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>That's fine, but the Clan implementation is still screwy: they use mechanized warfare to settle disputes other people would've settled at the negotiating table. An ironic waste<<<
Actually, they just cut to the chase a lot faster.
Since such issues are rarely actually SETTLED over a negotiating table. They just fester and then you eventually get a war.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
06/13/02 02:03 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Clan warriors are born of metal wombs, genes matched between generally two closely match relatives (inbreeding which can leed to problems in later gene-pools) to get the desired triats. Spending massive amounts of resources to produce 1 single sibko (not to mention such things as using warrior ashes to 'feed' the featus). <<<
Normal human gestation requires hundreds of man(well, woman)-hours. How is the iron womb more wasteful?
Trueborn sibkos do not experience any problems resulting from inbreeding.
>>>During their upbringing many are 'weeded' out, badly injured or killed through the continual trials that are close to 'real life' as possible (rather than spending lesser resources on very close simulations). Their graduation is in fact a darwinism in itself with some clans (like Steel Cobra) lucky to have 1 member per sibko graduate. The amount of trained personnel and materials destroyed in this is sheer looney-bin material. <<<
Clan selection is actually decidedly NON-darwinian. MOST of the rejects are weeded out before they are even in danger of injury, and put to more productive tasks.
Wasteful in the MASS-production of WARRIORS, perhaps, but hardly abnormally wasteful of human life.
>>>Also the objective of combat is wasteful. Clanners being such as they are would fight to the death for ownership of Alexander Kerenski's 300 year old used hankerchief rather than something of tactical or strategical importance *shrugs* must be good to be mental eh? <<<
CLAN is not the same thing as STUPID. Most trials ARE conducted over things of tactical or strategic import, and Kerensky's 300 year old used handkerchief has been recycled thousands of times already.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
06/13/02 02:06 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Yeah, we go to war over liscencing agreements (trial of possession for a design) all the time! My boss had to kill 15 men with his bare hands in order to get permission to manufacture those little electrode clips we sell with our EEG equipment. And rights to genetic lines? Don't get me started. In order to get the rights to produce a sibko with her present husband, my sister had to fight several members of his clan in mortal combat! <<<
The two types of trials you are considering are a small minority of the total Trials fought.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
06/13/02 02:08 PM
64.83.29.242
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>Since such issues are rarely actually SETTLED over a negotiating table.
What do you mean? Thousands of business deals - acquisition, buy, sell, trade - are settled over the phone and negotiating table daily.
The Clans go to war over that stuff.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/13/02 02:09 PM
64.83.29.242
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>The two types of trials you are considering are a small minority of the total Trials fought.
Yeah. Nicholas was a very sick person who set up an artificial environment - 20 "nations" - and set them at odds, then encouraged them to fight to settle matters. A criminal waste.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/13/02 02:11 PM
64.83.29.242
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>CLAN is not the same thing as STUPID
Not entirely. Just mostly, and the flaw is right at the beginning when Nicholas didn't demilitarize the Clans after the Exodus Civil War was over.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Tron
06/13/02 04:01 PM
64.152.169.40
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They only go to war for military hardware. Hell once they realized how good Elementals might be the clans who built them didn't initiate a trial but got their merchants to buy them. Plus if you consider the how the clans are severely lacking in the areas of covert ops, trials are significantly the most efficient way of getting weapons tech from other clans. Also trials are small scale affairs so the waste isn't happening when you think of the improvements to war it brings into the futre (atms, er lasers, elementals, etc.)
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."-Kosh
We are a race that has the ability of going beyond the boundries placed on us. The question we should ask ourselves then is whether or not we should go beyond those boundries?
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Cray
06/13/02 05:28 PM
12.91.114.184
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>They only go to war for military hardware
No, they go to war for mining colonies, land, factories, cities, etc. In 2859, soon after developing the omnimech...
"After equipping most of Alpha Galaxy with omnis, the Coyotes embarked on a campaign that swiftly won them exclusive control of five worlds." pg41, Warden Clans.
THEN the Clans fought for control of the omnimech, but fighting for those worlds had nothing to do with claiming military technology.
Further, Coyote and Hells Horses have both fought a punitive war simply to punish a Fire Mandrill Kindraa. Coyote launched punitive attacks on Cloud Cobra on half a dozen worlds in 2948 - that had nothing to do with trials of possession. It was vengeance. pg41-42 Warden Clans.
>once they realized how good Elementals might be the clans who built them didn't initiate a trial but got their merchants to buy them.
No. pg41 of Warden Clans: trials were fought for Elemental technology and even presided over by an ilKhan.
>trials are significantly the most efficient way of getting weapons tech from other clans.
1) That the Clan trial system minimizes waste misses the forest for the trees: the Clans never needed to be separated into feuding factions to begin with. If Nicholas hadn't artificially separated the Clans, they would never waste resources on trials to get military secrets from each other because there wouldn't be "others."
2) No, trials are not the most efficient way. Consider the price of the destruction of a star of omnis in a trial vs. lawyer fees negotiating or suing for rights to a technology. 50 million C-bills in trashed labor, resources, energy and factory space vs. 1 million C-bills in salaries.
Only within the Clan culture do trials save materials because Clans wouldn't consider lawsuits or commando raids. From an outside perspective, the Clans are a hypocritically wasteful culture.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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novakitty
06/13/02 06:19 PM
209.242.100.230
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I would suggest you reread the message Alexander sent on his way out. He had intended to return, with military force, to restore the Star League. However, the Clans lost an understanding of what war truly was as a result of the combat trials that were intended to keep them in top shape.
As a side note, just because only a few members of any sibko become mechwarriors does not mean that all the others die. Some die, but many are transfered to the civilian populace. Not all training was done with live rounds.
meow
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Cray
06/13/02 06:47 PM
12.91.138.229
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>I would suggest you reread the message Alexander sent on his way out. He had intended to return, with military force, to restore the Star League
That in no way changes my last post. Big Al sent that message before the slaughter of the Exodus Civil War.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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KamikazeJohnson
06/13/02 07:28 PM
209.202.47.12
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>>That the Clans avoid large scale warfare is a moot point. The Clans are on a continuous war footing that generates the same level of waste with or without big battles.<<
So in the end, the Clan system is not exactly wasteful...while it is highly unlikely that their constant skirmishes are less wasteful than less frequent large-scale battles, their is also no evidence to suggest that they generate more waste. It seems likely that the overall amount of waste due to military action is roughly equivalent under either system.
As I pointed out elsewhere on this thread...it is essentially impossible to decrease the cost of warfare by adhering to a set of "rules"...less destructive combat means they can afford to fight more. The only way to reduce the cost is to stop fighting...and neither the Clans nor the Inner Sphere, or even the Star League, really, have ever managed to do that.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Cray
06/13/02 08:07 PM
12.91.126.187
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>So in the end, the Clan system is not exactly wasteful
It's extremely wasteful compared to a peaceful society. Otherwise, I agree with you.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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TenakaFurey
06/13/02 08:14 PM
195.92.168.173
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But he *wanted* it that way.
He wnated the Clans to return - eventually - to the IS, and conquer it. To do that he needed battle hardend troops - hence the clans to have someone to fight with, competition to ensure rivalry and growth and Trials to ensure that the best prospered.
He wanted the clans to remake the Star league in the image of his new society - not remake it in what he veiwed as a flawed, self destructive society too focused on the needs of individuals rather than the whole.
EJL
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NathanKell
06/13/02 09:21 PM
24.44.238.62
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And so he made a society concerned with the needs of neither its individuals nor the whole.
I really, really like the brain fever idea--it's painful to think a person, with no other signs before, would be that nutty.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Nightward
06/13/02 10:03 PM
132.234.251.211
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Pardon? Kerensky left the Inner Sphere to protect it from destruction at the hands of his SLDF. The Clans were intended to return to the Inner Sphere, but not, as you seem to think, to conquer it. The Clans were supposed to return to the IS to show it a better way. Granted, the Clans have some problems, but when you look at nut-jobbers in the Inner Sphere (Maximillian Liao, Jinjiro Kurita, Stefan Amaris, Kali Liao, Katherine Steiner-Davion..I could go on) at least in Clan society only warriors are expected to fight and suffer. Some Clans-like the Jaguars-forgot that, attacked civilians, and were wiped out for it.
I fail to see where you get this "Clans waste things" from. The Trial protocols limit the amount of warirors used to obtain their objective and the impact upon the opposition. What use is there in taking a sledgehammer to a flea? None. You will get it eventually, but the effort wasted in the swings where you missed it is harly going to balance that.
I guess it's a difference of opinion. I cannot see how the Clans "waste" anything in their military caste. But I know that I will not be able to convince anyone else, so why bother?
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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novakitty
06/13/02 10:40 PM
209.242.100.230
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"so why bother? "
Simple, if we did not argue back and forth endlessly while no one is willing to consider the other's views, we would not have near as many posts in this forum. Apparently unproductive arguments make the forum seem larger and more active than it really is.
meow
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Nightward
06/13/02 10:51 PM
132.234.251.211
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Is that not waste? 
I have looked at other's views on the subject and can see nothing that has not been raised in the BattleTech fiction. What the Inner Sphere thought about the Clans did not affect me then, and it does not affect me now.
I believe that mopst are suffering a knee-jerk "Clans=EVIL SCUM WHO HAVE COME TO EAT MY CHILDREN,", or something similar, reaction and are simply bashing the Clans because they can.
As I said, nobody is perfect. Look at the House militaries. 70+ regiments each, and yet in 3049 when the Clans arrived they could not do anything to stop them. That strikes me as waste.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
06/13/02 11:02 PM
132.234.251.211
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Pardon? Has anyone other than myself read the Field Manual or Clan sourcebooks that were published? At the start, the Clans worked together.
When the Jade Falcons and Smoke Jaguars got pissed off because they could not win the Kerensky legacy from the Wolves and the Coyotes and Wolves worked together on OmniMechs and Elementals, sparking arms races, *THAT'S* when things went wrong.
The Blood Spirits were somewhat of a UN Peacekeeper/Aid force until they got bitten for it.
I could go on.
What the Kerenskys may or may not have intended for the Clans is immaterial. The Clan Councils and Khans chose to walk their own paths.
I don't hear anybody complaining about the first Kurita's brutal campaing to subjugate about a quarter of the known galaxy. I didn't hear anyone whine when Kali Liao unleshed *NERVE GAS* against *CIVILIANS*. OK, the Clans have problems. So does everyone else. And although it may be anathema to you, so does your own United States. Nobody is perfect, and besides-this is fiction. Who cares? Read another book. Terry Pratchett and David Eddingas are both good...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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