NathanKell
06/11/02 09:44 PM
24.44.238.62
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And now, for Tirade #347...
Waste.
The Operation Audacity Typo thread reminded me of one (by no means the only, but this is enough for now) the nonsenical aspects of the Clans that chafe like a blister.
For a society that "abhors waste", the Clans are masters at making sure that, once a battle is begun, there will be the maximum possible destruction...of both sides! This comes from two aspects:
1. Bidding
2. Zellbrigen
Now, the latter can be (perhaps) excused as due to the rather infantile preoccupation with their barbaric, chest-thumping, he-man (etc.) concept of honor and glory. But the former in large part lacks that excuse (other than the he-man, chest-thumping, see-how-good-I-am bit). It serves to make sure that, by using the least possible force required to beat the enemy, the victor suffers nearly as much.
Example 1, with both rules in effect.
A trinary from Clan Stupid Squirrel challenges Clan Conan to a Trial of Possesion for a base. Clan Conan, after much fratricidal bidding, decides to use a trinary (that knows it's better than its opponent, so no support is needed) to defend. The warriors (not soldiers, warriors--and they revel in the term!) of the two trinaries engage each other; on the whole the fights are equal. At the end of the first round of "Honor Duels" a star's worth on either side manage to kill each other off, while a further star's worth on either side are eliminated by their opponents, leaving a star on each side...of seriously damaged units. In the second round, the two remaining stars slug it out, leaving only a couple mechs (or power suits) standing. The winner doesn't matter, since both sides have lost.
Example 2, with sanity in effect.
A trinary from Clan Stupid Squirrel challenges Clan Grownabrain to a Trial of Possesion for a base. Clan Grownabrain destroys them from orbit. Err, they send a cluster or two in response. Either way, the end is the same--Clan Grownabrain has emerged victorious with only half the waste of the above encounter. For even less waste, it could have sent out a few clusters of Targeting Computer/Pulse Laser equipped mechs and disabled the Stupid Squirrels' units for salvage.
I hope you get my drift 
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
06/11/02 10:26 PM
63.173.170.213
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Following that, here is an idea....remove the rules on Clan combat, ie throw the book out the window, and allow them to fight all the time like the Inner Sphere...I don't think there is any need to state who would win if this was done...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
06/11/02 11:02 PM
209.242.100.230
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Some Clans (exteme Wardens) have grown up and discarded those foolish rituals.
If the orbital bombardment idea were used often, all humanity would be Snow Ravens, or dead.
meow
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NathanKell
06/11/02 11:19 PM
24.44.238.62
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And I didn't think there was any need to state that this has jack to do with game balance and everything to do with believability / consistency.
Who's talking about game balance? Not me...I'm talking about holes in logic big enough to drive an Atlas through...
Did I say "Let's all be little Clantech munchkins"? No. I said: for a society based on the avoidance of waste, why be wasteful? Or, is this wasteful or not?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
06/11/02 11:22 PM
24.44.238.62
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General Note:
This topic has nothing to do with munch nor game balance nor I-want-to-play-Clan-with-no-rules thinking (read: munch).
What it is about is what I feel is one of the major glaring inconsistencies of Clan society: the value placed on avoiding waste vs. the value placed on bidding and zellbrigen.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Acolyte
06/11/02 11:32 PM
64.180.255.235
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Game balance ended with the double heat sink. The clans just destroyed the balance of power in the universe and polerized into good and evil. Which side is which depends on perspective, of course, providing that you're not a fully upgraded with clan tech inner sphere munchtech unit.
I like the shadowy no one is a good guy universe of 3025. It's why I had hopes for the MW Dark Age. Too bad they have no plans for a source book......
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Karagin
06/11/02 11:56 PM
63.173.170.28
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I wasn't talking about balance either, I was trying to say their rules of combat are there so they feel important and given their history they seem them as godsend since it prevents the full scale barbarianism of their early history.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
06/11/02 11:57 PM
63.173.170.28
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Bombing a planet is fine and great but what good is wrecked world?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
06/12/02 12:52 AM
209.202.47.12
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Consider this scenario, however...
Clan Massive Militia sends a Cluster to defend a position.
Clan Overkill sends 3 Clusters to wipe them out.
Clan Massive Militia reinforces with 1 Cluster of Reserves.
Clan Overkill commits 2 Clusters of reserves.
While this massive, 3 month battle gets played out, Clan Massive Militia brings in Jumpships with 4 more Clusters
etc. etc. etc.
Sounds like a tad bit more waste than 2 Trinaries facing off
Simply put, the "honourable" bidding system requires that both sides stick to their original force, thus preventing escalation. In the long run, this saves resources.
Of course, it's only natural that such a system (especially in a warrior caste society) would evolve into an "honor" competition.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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novakitty
06/12/02 01:35 AM
209.242.100.230
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A wrecked world is favorable over a productive world used by an enemy. Plants can be seeded on a dead world (if it can support them) and mines can be built on one whose mines were destroyed. Raw planetary resources can be harvested by anyone with the initial resources neccessary to do so (which varies), so it is tactically better to keep planets uninhabited until your own forces have need to expand.
meow
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Cray
06/12/02 06:21 AM
64.83.29.242
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I've ranted about this exact same thing before.
Deploying extremely excessive numbers is not wasteful at all compared to neatly matched combats, and orbital bombardment of enemy ground units is EXTREMELY cost- and material-efficient...for the bombarding side. The bombarders destroy about as much of the enemy as they would have with ground troops, but for only the cost of fuel for the fusion reactor(s) that powered the naval energy weapons.
Though that's outside Clan traditions. Within the Clan way of fighting (warrior dueling warrior), bidding and Zellbriggen (sp?) make sense. Once you decide fighting waste is more important than fighting for honor, you get back to the preceding paragraph.
Though the downside to this "massive overkill" is escalation. Oh, well. That just leads to the "first strike" concept and "local, overwhelming superiority before they can get in reinforcements."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/12/02 06:38 AM
64.83.29.242
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>While this massive, 3 month battle gets played out
The battle should not last 3 days, let alone 3 months, particularly if one side or the other has space travel. Spot enemy bases, make orbital hops to enemy bases (15 minutes from point A to B), trash enemy bases. There isn't time to bring in reinforcements.
If the battle did last months then, yes, I see the escalation problem, but there's no reason for a side with temporary, local excessive numbers and space travel to not thrash an opponent [1] in BT.
[1] Sneaky guerillas excepted.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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SuperCharger
06/12/02 08:10 AM
12.83.76.215
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<<
Bombing a planet is fine and great but what good is wrecked world?
>>
Well, the Task Force Serpent people didn't completely wreck Huntress, and they used limited orbital bombardment (to save the ineffective Lyran general's butt). You don't have to destroy the whole world, as long as your enemy's forces aren't all holed up in the factory complexes full of goodies...
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Cray
06/12/02 09:00 AM
64.83.29.242
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Orbital bombardment affects a very limited area, particularly given the numbers and concentration of BT forces. A few strikes against military bases will destroy the entire (few clusters' worth) of defenders. A couple of churned kilometers out of millions is nothing. Commercial logging and mining do a lot more damage.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
06/12/02 01:26 PM
63.173.170.47
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So you are limiting the use to a small area wow...that isn't realy going to bring a planet to it's knees.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
06/12/02 01:31 PM
63.173.170.47
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For orbital bombardment to cower the populus you need to hit cities and other thing close enough to the civilans so it is they who force their military to surrender.
Blast a field army is all fine and great, but that just means the other spread out and you have a gurrillea war to fight once you land. Blasting a couple of the cities and then laying waste to the gather armies would be more effect and the end results is cowered populus and you can take over the planet with out having to much trouble from pratisans and such.
Besides, in this game only warships can do bombardment and even then it's only with their weapons, Focht's idea of tossing astdroids at a planet is more of what one would be doing long before landing the first unit of his army.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
06/12/02 01:33 PM
63.173.170.47
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While what you suggest is excellent for the Inner Sphere the Clans won't do it. They will pick a site and fight over it tell one side has one then all is over with and done and the loser goes home.
So using an IS template on the Clans is wrong.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
06/12/02 02:00 PM
24.44.238.62
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And what does this have to do with the dichotomy of Clans' bidding and Clans' abhoring of waste?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
06/12/02 02:01 PM
24.44.238.62
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And is this not wasteful?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
06/12/02 02:05 PM
24.44.238.62
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I'm not talking about the system so much as the wasteful bids themselves.
If you know your opponent is coming with a trinary, and is constrained by bidding, why not go the route that entails the minimum waste--bid a cluster for defense?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Cray
06/12/02 02:17 PM
64.83.29.242
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I know Clans won't go for it. I mentioned that in my "Bravo!" reply, above. I was speaking in general terms along the lines of what would be least wasteful, not what the Clans would do.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (06/12/02 02:21 PM)
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Cray
06/12/02 02:20 PM
64.83.29.242
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Exactly the point. A limited area bombardment will bring the planet's military to its knees. Or rather, to its grave. I don't want the rest of the planet on its knees. I want healthy, tax producing infrastructure and people.
After toasting the local military from orbit, you send in the garrison troops, which should be hordes of infantry. Tens or hundreds of thousands, depending on the local population.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
06/12/02 05:34 PM
63.173.170.26
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You are missing the point, so what if you defeat the military...some one will turn gurrillea since you didn't cow the populus.
The best way to that is destory something they will notice and that would be a city...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
06/12/02 05:37 PM
63.173.170.26
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You are not listening...the Clans setup their rules of combat after seeing the horrors of war first hand on levels that most never see.
Their forefathers faught Amaris and his goons to liberate the Terran Hegemongy. In doing so they saw all kinds of horrors and desturction. Then later on they ended up fighting their own civil war and revisiting those same horrors and barbarous acts.
Thus Nicholas setup a system that would vent the warrior drive and not wipe out the whole system of government at the same time.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
06/12/02 05:41 PM
63.173.170.26
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Simple, destorying one city to cower the planet is a lot cheaper then blasting the whole planet.
But again, all of us are trying use logical thinking here and that doesn't always work with the given system.
We know the Clans would rather fight one on one duals, for both reasons of warrior prowless and less waste, instead of turning the guns of the whole star on a single target.
The idea of them use orbital bombardment is the same, the Jags used in on a city a that had rebelled. Once the city was destoryed, Turtle Bay, the planet citizens stopped their rebellion mainly do to the utter shock. Thus, the loss of one city saved the lives of millions of others. To the Clans this would be fair trade off. While to others the act would be barbaric and wrong.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
06/12/02 05:56 PM
24.44.238.62
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But this is precisely what I'm saying--one-on-one duels are *not* less wasteful than combining fire. In fact, they're far *more* wasteful, because it leaves the victor nearly as destroyed as the loser.
What I'm saying is that bidding low and zellbrigen don't jibe with "less waste." What I'm asking is what reason(s) could the Clans have for favoring bidding low and zellbrigen OVER avoiding waste?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
06/12/02 05:57 PM
24.44.238.62
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Yes.
However, that system is very wasteful.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
novakitty
06/12/02 06:06 PM
209.242.100.230
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Yes, more of the forces sent into a combat will be damaged or lost than in conventional warfare.
However, if both sides adhere to the rules of honor, the total amount of forces sent in will be much smaller than those used in conventional warfare. Both forces lose a star, instead of one force losing a cluster, and the other suffering some damage to their galaxy.
meow
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Karagin
06/12/02 06:11 PM
63.173.170.26
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I gave that reason to you. The two lower the cost be turning the fighting into a contest, thus the over all damage is done to a smaller group of combants and the fighting is limited to them alone.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
06/12/02 06:13 PM
63.173.170.26
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No it is not. The battles are fought among a set number of warriors. That is it. Not whole armies tearing up the landscape. A small group fights and then when one side is defeated or surrenders the battle is over. A lot less are killed and the damage is localized to only the units that actually fought.
Thus they keep things on a smaller scale meaning that the death of a few warriors ends the fighting with out millions killed.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
06/12/02 06:15 PM
63.173.170.26
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In the case why not big your entire army to defend?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
06/12/02 07:33 PM
12.91.116.73
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>some one will turn gurrillea since you didn't cow the populus.
That's what the thousands of infantry are for. Blowing up a city most people on the planet never went to won't bother them as much as soldiers on every street corner and kicking down every guerilla's door. Warships can't even find guerillas unless they're the stupid hide-in-obvious-wilderness-camp sorts.
>The best way to that is destory something they will notice and that would be a city...
Only Clans, Capellans, and Snakes do that. I have no intention of playing any of those factions.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/12/02 07:38 PM
12.91.116.73
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>Thus Nicholas setup a system that would vent the warrior drive and not wipe out the whole system of government at the same time
But that system is wasteful. Ironic, considering the Clans' penchant for avoiding waste.
Really, they should've just set up some sporting events, emphasized energy-sapping efforts like colonization and industrial growth, and eschewed war all together.
Nicholas was one sick puppy. A warrior society indeed.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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NathanKell
06/12/02 07:41 PM
24.44.238.62
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Bingo.
Me, I cling to the brain fever argument. And I figure it was a heck of a lot more infectious than one would think (i.e. it got to Jerome Winson, et al.).
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
06/12/02 07:43 PM
24.44.238.62
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I am not arguing against the idea that small battles are less wasteful than large battles.
What I'm arguing against is the (nutty) idea that, in a battle of *any* size, combat between equal forces is less wasteful than combat between outmatched forces. It isn't, plain and simple.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Cray
06/12/02 07:43 PM
12.91.116.73
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Yeah, it is wasteful, because:
1) The Clans fight in the first place when other people would've settled matters at the negotiating table or with mud wrestling or something else not involving the tremendous waste of mechanized warfare.
2) The Clans funnel all their culture's wealth into war, which is an utterly non-productive pursuit. Waste.
3) The Exodus society had no need to turn to continuous war after the Exodus Civil War did. The Clans have embraced continuous waste.
Avoiding army-level combat for smaller scale combat in the name of avoiding waste is missing the forest for a tree.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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NathanKell
06/12/02 07:44 PM
24.44.238.62
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Once again, this is not about the size of the forces.
This is about the ratio of the sizes of the forces, and the manner in which those forces fight.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
06/12/02 07:46 PM
24.44.238.62
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However, total losses are greater in a 1:1 ratio fight than a 3:1 ratio fight.
Let's take this for an example: 1 star vs. 1 star, or 1 star vs. 1 trinary.
The total losses of the former engagement are greater than the total losses of the latter. It's that simple ("n-squared law").
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Spartan
06/12/02 07:51 PM
172.141.125.77
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This is all true. However the losses are limited to the military rather than thrown upon entire populations. I.E. it's more wasteful to destroy a city rather than a couple of mech stars. The waste avoidance is a couple of steps removed but it is there in one way or another. The point wasn't to avoid military waste and horror but to avoid inflicting those things upon civilians.
But then it doesn't always work out like it's supposed to... *cough*Turtle Bay*cough*
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Cray
06/12/02 08:14 PM
12.91.116.73
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>However the losses are limited to the military rather than thrown upon entire populations
The Clan concept missed the forest for the trees. The post-Exodus Civil War SLDF exiles had no reason to fight at all.
>But then it doesn't always work out like it's supposed to... *cough*Turtle Bay*cough*
Shoot, the Clans have forgotten the whole protect-civilians-from-war idea. They slaughter their own laborers at the first whif of a rebellion.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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NathanKell
06/12/02 08:19 PM
24.44.238.62
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How did people get the impression I'm for bombarding cities?
All I'm talking about is how it's wasteful for clans to fight battles with even forces, and it's wasteful for clans to use zellbrigen.
And how that's a contradiction of the Clans' stated objective of avoiding waste.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
06/12/02 08:20 PM
24.44.238.62
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Gotta love how the whole Ares Conventions / Legitimizing War theme gets played out again and again, right?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
06/12/02 09:20 PM
4.35.174.250
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I hate to say this, but you've got it all wrong.
Yes, Zellbrigen is wasteful, thus why it has been largely dispensed with once the Clans started fighting real war again.
(But at the time, honorable combat was considered the purpose of a warrior's life, and therefore not wasteful.)
The Batchall, however, is not.
It is merely a formalization of sane warfare:
1) You commit the forces you believe necessary to take an objective (the final bid)
2) If that proves insufficient, you call in the reserves (the semifinal bid.)
3) If even that proves isufficient, you can commit your last reserves (the initial bid) though by this point, the battle is probably already lost.
Batchall is simply a way to avoid overcommitting your forces, which can be a very serious blunder.
The side-effect is that it CAN (not will, CAN) limit the scale of conflict, a good thing from the perspective of waste.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
06/12/02 10:00 PM
63.173.170.147
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How is it wasteful? A small force is used to fight another smaller force...thus whole armies are not fight each other in an area the size of Washington.
The losses are limited to the two forces and their machines and pilots thus the rest of the army on each side is still intact.
I don't see this as wasteful.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
06/12/02 10:02 PM
63.173.170.147
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The idea I think you are missing is that two equal forces should cancel each other out. By this I mean that the losses on each side should be the same.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
06/12/02 10:04 PM
63.173.170.147
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If you say so, I disagree and think you are missing the point, but you and Nathan have made up your minds and thus we are going circles.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
06/12/02 10:19 PM
24.44.238.62
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Are you familiar with what is known as the "N-squared law"?
It states that, over time, the advantage conferred by numbers increases itself.
A good summary, geared for naval combat buffs (I am one, I admit) but applicable in general nonetheless, is here, at warships1.
The idea is this: if, at the beginning of a battle there is a disparity of forces, that disparity increases over time. If you start the battle with a 4:3 advantage (numerical or otherwise) this does not mean the battle ends with you suffering 3/4 the damage of your opponent; you suffer far less (and there are equations to prove this): 34% damage.
Look up "n-squared law" or Frederick Lanchester (the theorist behind it) in any search engine and you should find some helpful information.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
06/12/02 10:23 PM
63.173.170.147
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I followed what you posted and I am giving my opinion based on the facts given to use from the canon text.
But as I said I don't agree with your take on this and feel that nothing I say is going to change your mind on this so I am bowing out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
06/12/02 10:25 PM
209.202.47.12
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Simple...
Everyone would know that you insist on winning at any cost, so next time someone challenges you, they would bring enough troops to outnumber your entire planetside defensive force 3:1 or so, and commit all of it. Or at least equal numbers, since presumably the attacker is "honourable". The long-term result? Instead of risking a single Trinary in each of two Trials of Possession, you handily destroy the first attacker's forces, and then fight on even terms with your entire force for every battle for the rest of time.
It's kind of like the "prisoner's dilemma"...you can win this battle handily right now, but be forced to field a much, much larger force, and therefore take much heavier losses, for every future battle, or you could "play by the rules", and commit only a smal force each time, just like everyone else.
Not to mention that after a few large battles, your forces would likely be heavily outnumbered by Clans that fought using only minimal numbers of units.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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KamikazeJohnson
06/12/02 10:33 PM
209.202.47.12
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>>Avoiding army-level combat for smaller scale combat in the name of avoiding waste is missing the forest for a tree.<<
I agree with you...the same sort of thing happened under the Ares Conventions. In general, military encounters did less damage than they had previously. Therefore, military actions are a much more feasible answer to a number of problems. Therefore, more military action. Therefore, roughly the same cost, since governments are willing to commit a total of x amount of resources to military actions.
Naturally, it never occurs to any one to simply stop fighting.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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KamikazeJohnson
06/12/02 10:52 PM
209.202.47.12
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Zellbringen, of course, eliminates the n-squared law, since at any point in the battle, the numbers of active units are even, so at the end of the battle, the side with the larger force should be left with exactly that difference as their margin of victory, which kind of defeats the purpose of a huge advantage in numbers. Although I suppose a large numerical advantage allows for better area control, preventing flanking manoevers, etc. The larger force also has more flexibility to choose who takes part at any given time, further minimizing casualties.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Greyslayer
06/13/02 03:50 AM
137.172.211.9
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Clanners from birth are taught to waste (their birth in fact is a point in wastage).
Clan warriors are born of metal wombs, genes matched between generally two closely match relatives (inbreeding which can leed to problems in later gene-pools) to get the desired triats. Spending massive amounts of resources to produce 1 single sibko (not to mention such things as using warrior ashes to 'feed' the featus).
During their upbringing many are 'weeded' out, badly injured or killed through the continual trials that are close to 'real life' as possible (rather than spending lesser resources on very close simulations). Their graduation is in fact a darwinism in itself with some clans (like Steel Cobra) lucky to have 1 member per sibko graduate. The amount of trained personnel and materials destroyed in this is sheer looney-bin material.
This is before the 'wasteful' combat begins. Also the objective of combat is wasteful. Clanners being such as they are would fight to the death for ownership of Alexander Kerenski's 300 year old used hankerchief rather than something of tactical or strategical importance *shrugs* must be good to be mental eh?
Greyslayer
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Cray
06/13/02 06:23 AM
64.83.29.242
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>How is it wasteful?
Clan society endorses violence to settle disputes that other cultures would have settled peacefully. By fighting in the first place (with big or small groups), the Clans are wasting resources other cultures would have put into more constructive venues, like colonization, industrialization, housing, rock concerts, motorsports, and the NFL.
That the Clans avoid large scale warfare is a moot point. The Clans are on a continuous war footing that generates the same level of waste with or without big battles.
The Clans:
1) waste their finest materials and technology on war machines, and waste a large percentage of their resources on war machines
2) spend enormous amounts of resources (relative to their nations' size) on warriors who are nothing more than glorified welfare cases (i.e. produce nothing in return for the investment in them)
3) Effectively continuously throw all those resources into trash incinerators (use them in war) rather than get something out of them
And this avoids the "waste" of large scale war? It amounts to the same thing.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (06/13/02 06:38 AM)
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Cray
06/13/02 06:26 AM
64.83.29.242
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Next time Clan Rabid Rabbit and Clan Frothing Ferret fight over the rights to DNA of the Ubermunch bloodname and, in doing so, destroy a total of 8 omnimechs worth 100 million C-bills, ask yourself:
Had this been resolved peacefully, what could the Clans have done with that 100 million C-bills/~$300 million?
By legitimizing violence to resolve disagreements, the Clans are incredibly wasteful on a per capita basis. See Greyslayer's post about a waste regime.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/13/02 06:30 AM
64.83.29.242
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>The side-effect is that it CAN (not will, CAN) limit the scale of conflict, a good thing from the perspective of waste.
That's fine, but the Clan implementation is still screwy: they use mechanized warfare to settle disputes other people would've settled at the negotiating table. An ironic waste.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
06/13/02 06:48 AM
63.173.170.205
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If you say. I disagree with your postion on this but I can see that nothing I say will get you change your mind so I am bowing out of the topic.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
06/13/02 06:50 AM
63.173.170.205
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Again as I have said the small scale is where the least amount of damage to the whole group is done, but you and Nathan can't or won't see that. So seeing how we are again covering the same ground and beating it into dust I am bowing out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
06/13/02 07:26 AM
137.172.211.9
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'rock concerts, motorsports, and the NFL.'
Wow you just named three things even MORE wasteful than the Clan system of combat  .
Greyslayer
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Cray
06/13/02 07:55 AM
64.83.29.242
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Exactly. I have to admit that societies that nominally avoid the waste of mechanized warfare to settle business and family disputes are not necessarily pictures of thriftiness.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/13/02 08:17 AM
64.83.29.242
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Actually, we're talking about different topics.
You seem to be focusing on combat. Yes, small scale battles inflict less damage (i.e. waste less) than big ones.
I'm trying to point that even small scale battles are wasteful compared to the alternative (peaceful conflict resolution).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
06/13/02 08:21 AM
63.173.170.205
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No same topic, different views on it and neither of us want's to objectivelly see the other's side. So I am ending my input and leaving it as it is...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
06/13/02 08:35 AM
64.83.29.242
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Could you at least show me how we're talking about the same thing?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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novakitty
06/13/02 09:34 AM
209.242.100.230
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Do not take this the wrong way, but humanity has never been good at peaceful resolution of disputes.
Historically, peace follows victory in war.
meow
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Karagin
06/13/02 09:36 AM
63.173.170.205
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Go and re-read my posting, it should be very clear that we have been talking about the same topic from the start, but it seems that is not the case and since I am tired of saying the same thing over and over and have you or Nathan tell me I am wrong because you feel other wise is getting old.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Spartan
06/13/02 09:47 AM
172.171.162.65
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>>How did people get the impression I'm for bombarding cities?
I didn't get that impression. That was just an example of how they go against the basis of their philosophy. I'm not trying to say what the practice is but rather what the theory behind it says.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Spartan
06/13/02 09:56 AM
172.171.162.65
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>>they use mechanized warfare to settle disputes other people would've settled at the negotiating table.
But remember the vast majority of the Exodus fleet was military personnel. The only thing they've known for, what was it, a decade? was war. The only way they really know how to handle a dispute is to fight it out. War is what they know.
Also, they're competing for limited resources. There were originally 20 clans fighting for the resources of 5 worlds. In Btech terms that's not much to work with. And when you have a society founded by soldiers, well... the result is "civilized and honorable" warfare.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Spartan
06/13/02 10:00 AM
172.171.162.65
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In spite of my arguments to the clanners defense I think it's not a bad idea for them to waste their resources. The quicker they start to run out, the quicker they have to actually do something about and that for them means go to war with the IS. War with the IS means the Houses will need mercs, and hence I can be employed.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Cray
06/13/02 01:17 PM
64.83.29.242
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Oh, absolutely. The post-Exodus Civil War SLDF exiles had a chance to be free of WAR. I'm sure they'd need a decent police force by 3050 and would have plenty of criminal violence had they followed a traditional capitalist/democratic route after the War.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/13/02 01:21 PM
64.83.29.242
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[edit: this reply seems to be to a since-deleted post]
Y'know, had the post-Exodus Civil War SLDF Exiles chosen a path that endorsed using violence in the "Clan Way" only for important international/civil rights/defense issues, I might even praise the way they limited violence.
But they use violence to settle every sort of dispute, and set up a society divided (originally) 20 ways to encourage "international" disputes. Legitimized, encouraged violence in a society that saps all its productivity in the name of a deadbeat warrior caste...that's absolutely the wrong way to go about minimizing the waste of warfare.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (06/13/02 01:30 PM)
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Cray
06/13/02 01:29 PM
64.83.29.242
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>But remember the vast majority of the Exodus fleet was military personnel. The only thing they've known for, what was it, a decade? was war? War is what they know.
Warriors of Kerensky makes it clear that the SLDF exiles had burned the craving for war out of their blood by the time the Clans pacified the Pentagon worlds. That was another 20 years of war that killed off (IIRC) 25% of the SLDF exiles.
The demilitarized SLDF folks were quite ready to accept any "peaceful" rule, including Nicholas's.
>Also, they're competing for limited resources.
I absolutely do not accept this argument. The SLDF exiles had NO human competition for literally hundreds of thousands of cubic light-years around them. They had vast mineral wealth for the taking. Did they build mining colonies? Did they build scout ships? Did they build factories?
Yes, some. But they also wasted a huge amount of military effort stealing resources from their neighbors. After the Pentagon campaign, every mech they built, every warship they maintained, every battle they fought was a criminal waste of resources.
The destruction of a Clan trinary represents the investment needed to almost build a jumpship or a couple of dropships, or a factory, or housing for thousands of people.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/13/02 01:34 PM
64.83.29.242
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I've re-read your posts and you did not once address how much would be saved had the battles (big or small) not taken place to begin with. Can you quote that message?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/13/02 01:35 PM
64.83.29.242
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Hey, I like that thought chain.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
06/13/02 01:47 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>That's fine, but the Clan implementation is still screwy: they use mechanized warfare to settle disputes other people would've settled at the negotiating table. An ironic waste<<<
Actually, they just cut to the chase a lot faster.
Since such issues are rarely actually SETTLED over a negotiating table. They just fester and then you eventually get a war.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
06/13/02 02:03 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Clan warriors are born of metal wombs, genes matched between generally two closely match relatives (inbreeding which can leed to problems in later gene-pools) to get the desired triats. Spending massive amounts of resources to produce 1 single sibko (not to mention such things as using warrior ashes to 'feed' the featus). <<<
Normal human gestation requires hundreds of man(well, woman)-hours. How is the iron womb more wasteful?
Trueborn sibkos do not experience any problems resulting from inbreeding.
>>>During their upbringing many are 'weeded' out, badly injured or killed through the continual trials that are close to 'real life' as possible (rather than spending lesser resources on very close simulations). Their graduation is in fact a darwinism in itself with some clans (like Steel Cobra) lucky to have 1 member per sibko graduate. The amount of trained personnel and materials destroyed in this is sheer looney-bin material. <<<
Clan selection is actually decidedly NON-darwinian. MOST of the rejects are weeded out before they are even in danger of injury, and put to more productive tasks.
Wasteful in the MASS-production of WARRIORS, perhaps, but hardly abnormally wasteful of human life.
>>>Also the objective of combat is wasteful. Clanners being such as they are would fight to the death for ownership of Alexander Kerenski's 300 year old used hankerchief rather than something of tactical or strategical importance *shrugs* must be good to be mental eh? <<<
CLAN is not the same thing as STUPID. Most trials ARE conducted over things of tactical or strategic import, and Kerensky's 300 year old used handkerchief has been recycled thousands of times already.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
06/13/02 02:06 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Yeah, we go to war over liscencing agreements (trial of possession for a design) all the time! My boss had to kill 15 men with his bare hands in order to get permission to manufacture those little electrode clips we sell with our EEG equipment. And rights to genetic lines? Don't get me started. In order to get the rights to produce a sibko with her present husband, my sister had to fight several members of his clan in mortal combat! <<<
The two types of trials you are considering are a small minority of the total Trials fought.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
06/13/02 02:08 PM
64.83.29.242
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>Since such issues are rarely actually SETTLED over a negotiating table.
What do you mean? Thousands of business deals - acquisition, buy, sell, trade - are settled over the phone and negotiating table daily.
The Clans go to war over that stuff.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/13/02 02:09 PM
64.83.29.242
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>The two types of trials you are considering are a small minority of the total Trials fought.
Yeah. Nicholas was a very sick person who set up an artificial environment - 20 "nations" - and set them at odds, then encouraged them to fight to settle matters. A criminal waste.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/13/02 02:11 PM
64.83.29.242
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>CLAN is not the same thing as STUPID
Not entirely. Just mostly, and the flaw is right at the beginning when Nicholas didn't demilitarize the Clans after the Exodus Civil War was over.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Tron
06/13/02 04:01 PM
64.152.169.40
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They only go to war for military hardware. Hell once they realized how good Elementals might be the clans who built them didn't initiate a trial but got their merchants to buy them. Plus if you consider the how the clans are severely lacking in the areas of covert ops, trials are significantly the most efficient way of getting weapons tech from other clans. Also trials are small scale affairs so the waste isn't happening when you think of the improvements to war it brings into the futre (atms, er lasers, elementals, etc.)
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."-Kosh
We are a race that has the ability of going beyond the boundries placed on us. The question we should ask ourselves then is whether or not we should go beyond those boundries?
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Cray
06/13/02 05:28 PM
12.91.114.184
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>They only go to war for military hardware
No, they go to war for mining colonies, land, factories, cities, etc. In 2859, soon after developing the omnimech...
"After equipping most of Alpha Galaxy with omnis, the Coyotes embarked on a campaign that swiftly won them exclusive control of five worlds." pg41, Warden Clans.
THEN the Clans fought for control of the omnimech, but fighting for those worlds had nothing to do with claiming military technology.
Further, Coyote and Hells Horses have both fought a punitive war simply to punish a Fire Mandrill Kindraa. Coyote launched punitive attacks on Cloud Cobra on half a dozen worlds in 2948 - that had nothing to do with trials of possession. It was vengeance. pg41-42 Warden Clans.
>once they realized how good Elementals might be the clans who built them didn't initiate a trial but got their merchants to buy them.
No. pg41 of Warden Clans: trials were fought for Elemental technology and even presided over by an ilKhan.
>trials are significantly the most efficient way of getting weapons tech from other clans.
1) That the Clan trial system minimizes waste misses the forest for the trees: the Clans never needed to be separated into feuding factions to begin with. If Nicholas hadn't artificially separated the Clans, they would never waste resources on trials to get military secrets from each other because there wouldn't be "others."
2) No, trials are not the most efficient way. Consider the price of the destruction of a star of omnis in a trial vs. lawyer fees negotiating or suing for rights to a technology. 50 million C-bills in trashed labor, resources, energy and factory space vs. 1 million C-bills in salaries.
Only within the Clan culture do trials save materials because Clans wouldn't consider lawsuits or commando raids. From an outside perspective, the Clans are a hypocritically wasteful culture.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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novakitty
06/13/02 06:19 PM
209.242.100.230
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I would suggest you reread the message Alexander sent on his way out. He had intended to return, with military force, to restore the Star League. However, the Clans lost an understanding of what war truly was as a result of the combat trials that were intended to keep them in top shape.
As a side note, just because only a few members of any sibko become mechwarriors does not mean that all the others die. Some die, but many are transfered to the civilian populace. Not all training was done with live rounds.
meow
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Cray
06/13/02 06:47 PM
12.91.138.229
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>I would suggest you reread the message Alexander sent on his way out. He had intended to return, with military force, to restore the Star League
That in no way changes my last post. Big Al sent that message before the slaughter of the Exodus Civil War.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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KamikazeJohnson
06/13/02 07:28 PM
209.202.47.12
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>>That the Clans avoid large scale warfare is a moot point. The Clans are on a continuous war footing that generates the same level of waste with or without big battles.<<
So in the end, the Clan system is not exactly wasteful...while it is highly unlikely that their constant skirmishes are less wasteful than less frequent large-scale battles, their is also no evidence to suggest that they generate more waste. It seems likely that the overall amount of waste due to military action is roughly equivalent under either system.
As I pointed out elsewhere on this thread...it is essentially impossible to decrease the cost of warfare by adhering to a set of "rules"...less destructive combat means they can afford to fight more. The only way to reduce the cost is to stop fighting...and neither the Clans nor the Inner Sphere, or even the Star League, really, have ever managed to do that.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Cray
06/13/02 08:07 PM
12.91.126.187
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>So in the end, the Clan system is not exactly wasteful
It's extremely wasteful compared to a peaceful society. Otherwise, I agree with you.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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TenakaFurey
06/13/02 08:14 PM
195.92.168.173
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But he *wanted* it that way.
He wnated the Clans to return - eventually - to the IS, and conquer it. To do that he needed battle hardend troops - hence the clans to have someone to fight with, competition to ensure rivalry and growth and Trials to ensure that the best prospered.
He wanted the clans to remake the Star league in the image of his new society - not remake it in what he veiwed as a flawed, self destructive society too focused on the needs of individuals rather than the whole.
EJL
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NathanKell
06/13/02 09:21 PM
24.44.238.62
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And so he made a society concerned with the needs of neither its individuals nor the whole.
I really, really like the brain fever idea--it's painful to think a person, with no other signs before, would be that nutty.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Nightward
06/13/02 10:03 PM
132.234.251.211
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Pardon? Kerensky left the Inner Sphere to protect it from destruction at the hands of his SLDF. The Clans were intended to return to the Inner Sphere, but not, as you seem to think, to conquer it. The Clans were supposed to return to the IS to show it a better way. Granted, the Clans have some problems, but when you look at nut-jobbers in the Inner Sphere (Maximillian Liao, Jinjiro Kurita, Stefan Amaris, Kali Liao, Katherine Steiner-Davion..I could go on) at least in Clan society only warriors are expected to fight and suffer. Some Clans-like the Jaguars-forgot that, attacked civilians, and were wiped out for it.
I fail to see where you get this "Clans waste things" from. The Trial protocols limit the amount of warirors used to obtain their objective and the impact upon the opposition. What use is there in taking a sledgehammer to a flea? None. You will get it eventually, but the effort wasted in the swings where you missed it is harly going to balance that.
I guess it's a difference of opinion. I cannot see how the Clans "waste" anything in their military caste. But I know that I will not be able to convince anyone else, so why bother?
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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novakitty
06/13/02 10:40 PM
209.242.100.230
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"so why bother? "
Simple, if we did not argue back and forth endlessly while no one is willing to consider the other's views, we would not have near as many posts in this forum. Apparently unproductive arguments make the forum seem larger and more active than it really is.
meow
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Nightward
06/13/02 10:51 PM
132.234.251.211
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Is that not waste? 
I have looked at other's views on the subject and can see nothing that has not been raised in the BattleTech fiction. What the Inner Sphere thought about the Clans did not affect me then, and it does not affect me now.
I believe that mopst are suffering a knee-jerk "Clans=EVIL SCUM WHO HAVE COME TO EAT MY CHILDREN,", or something similar, reaction and are simply bashing the Clans because they can.
As I said, nobody is perfect. Look at the House militaries. 70+ regiments each, and yet in 3049 when the Clans arrived they could not do anything to stop them. That strikes me as waste.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
06/13/02 11:02 PM
132.234.251.211
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Pardon? Has anyone other than myself read the Field Manual or Clan sourcebooks that were published? At the start, the Clans worked together.
When the Jade Falcons and Smoke Jaguars got pissed off because they could not win the Kerensky legacy from the Wolves and the Coyotes and Wolves worked together on OmniMechs and Elementals, sparking arms races, *THAT'S* when things went wrong.
The Blood Spirits were somewhat of a UN Peacekeeper/Aid force until they got bitten for it.
I could go on.
What the Kerenskys may or may not have intended for the Clans is immaterial. The Clan Councils and Khans chose to walk their own paths.
I don't hear anybody complaining about the first Kurita's brutal campaing to subjugate about a quarter of the known galaxy. I didn't hear anyone whine when Kali Liao unleshed *NERVE GAS* against *CIVILIANS*. OK, the Clans have problems. So does everyone else. And although it may be anathema to you, so does your own United States. Nobody is perfect, and besides-this is fiction. Who cares? Read another book. Terry Pratchett and David Eddingas are both good...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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novakitty
06/14/02 12:02 AM
209.242.100.230
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It is amazing what a little brainwashing can do. Objectivity destroyed in favor of agreeing with everyone else.
In a discussion of politics, I was harshly attacked when I suggested that a representative govenment might not be the best (due to typically short life spans) when I mentioned the word "dynasty" they really went out of control.
meow
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Nightward
06/14/02 12:12 AM
132.234.251.211
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Nope. I'm pretty much the most stubborn person you will ever meet.It is just that when a battle is hopeless, I do not fight it. It is nort worth my time or effort. I have my opinion; others are welcome to theirs, so long as they don't try to force it upon me.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Greyslayer
06/14/02 01:27 AM
137.172.211.9
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Waste is not necessarily death. Someone who spent most of their life learning say science to become a beach bum is a waste.
Waste = leftover resources after final product is produced.
Sure not all are tested in the Trial of Position but neither are those that tested only fight each other. Given as they are to have weapons that chop heads off ... how often does a tried and tested warrior get himself killed from a lucky shot from a 'testing' cadet. Such a system is wasteful (especially given that this can happen to 3 such people against the same target in the same 'trial')....
Before this though physical trials such as hand-to-hand combat, small arms and survival training are taught. Reading the first and second of the Aidan Pryde novels help give a good insight into their methods of training and just what can happen to those during trials and tests.
Now don't get me started on Bloodname trials....
Greyslayer
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Greyslayer
06/14/02 01:28 AM
137.172.211.9
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Of course, who else but the Lyrans and Clans would a merc make a killing off salvaging overpriced hulks .
Greyslayer
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Greyslayer
06/14/02 01:46 AM
137.172.211.9
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Actually you have been saying over and over that you were leaving this thread ... anytime soon would be good ;P.
Those of us thinking the clans in essence are wasteful are putting and are prepared to put facts on the table. I've seen little of this from our opposition on this topic. Maybe they would prefer conflict to discussion?
Greyslayer
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Cray
06/14/02 06:41 AM
64.83.29.242
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>But he *wanted* it that way.
I know. That doesn't change my last post in the least, though.
Nicholas's idea of a model Star League society wasn't necessarily the best, or even a contender for the "sorta kinda remotely okay idea" category. What he set up squandered the isolation, incredible resources, technology, and peaceful (after the Exodus Civil War) setting the exiles had in the name of producing some good warriors. The tradeoff was not worthwhile.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Spartan
06/14/02 10:12 AM
172.166.145.220
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>>The demilitarized SLDF folks were quite ready to accept any "peaceful" rule, including Nicholas's.
But what about the non-demilitarized ones? The special chosen few who got to be warriors?
But you are right they shouldn't have been fighting over their resources, they *should* have shared and explored for more that would have been more cost effective and less people would die. But they didn't, and therefore must fight over limited resources.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Spartan
06/14/02 10:24 AM
172.166.145.220
|
About your rant about what the clans did originally and what they do now can be anwsered by the title of this particular offshoot of the thread: Clan implementation is still screwy.
As for what the Kuritans did, or the Liao's, or even the US they're all related arguments but immaterial to this particular discussion. If wanted to we could argue all day about the unethical actions of *every* government that ever existed in reality or fiction.
>>Nobody is perfect, and besides-this is fiction.
You're right no one is perfect. Perfection is a journey not a destination. And it being fiction is what makes it fun to argue about, we're not discussing something that touched, and killed, real people but fictions of our imaginations. Hence, we hurt no one. And at any rate these long threads are often the most fun arguments. And we've been doing this for years. At least as long as I've been coming to the board.
>>Who cares?
I do.
>>Read another book.
I just finished the latest Star Wars novel. And now I'm starting on "Debt of Honor."
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Edited by Spartan (06/14/02 01:51 PM)
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Bob_Richter
06/14/02 01:21 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>The Clans go to war over that stuff.<<<
ONLY when the matter can't be settled peacefully, which is when war happens in real life, too.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
06/14/02 01:24 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>1) That the Clan trial system minimizes waste misses the forest for the trees: the Clans never needed to be separated into feuding factions to begin with. If Nicholas hadn't artificially separated the Clans, they would never waste resources on trials to get military secrets from each other because there wouldn't be "others." <<<
And there wouldn't be any military secrets. Soon there wouldn't be any military. Useless government programs die fairly quickly.
>>>2) No, trials are not the most efficient way. Consider the price of the destruction of a star of omnis in a trial vs. lawyer fees negotiating or suing for rights to a technology. 50 million C-bills in trashed labor, resources, energy and factory space vs. 1 million C-bills in salaries. <<<
The destruction of a star of Omnis is NEVER complete, nor does a trial even USUALLY involve that much force.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
06/14/02 01:27 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Yeah. Nicholas was a very sick person who set up an artificial environment - 20 "nations" - and set them at odds, then encouraged them to fight to settle matters. A criminal waste. <<<
That depends. If your objective is to create an army ever-ready for war, there is little better way to do it.
That was clearly Kerensky's intention.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
06/14/02 05:40 PM
12.91.138.149
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>Soon there wouldn't be any military
Right. Nations have never found needs to maintain militaries for decades in peacetime.
>The destruction of a star of Omnis is NEVER complete
Irrelevant. The material loss far outclasses the cost of peaceful resolutions like lawsuits. Expend a ton of AC ammo, you've spent the annual income of a wealthy laborer. Wreck a gyro, you've spent the annual income of 20 laborers.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/14/02 05:46 PM
12.91.138.149
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Ri-i-i-ight. Clan Coyote tried every peaceful venue to conquer the 5 planets it grabbed after developing the omnimech.
Many other cultures - the US, for example - wouldn't even go to war when peaceful means of resolving, say, a dispute between two mining companies over rights to a mine, or two drug companies over rights to a drug patent, or two states over their exact borders (well, not in 220 years or so, anyway).
The Clans were set up to artificially promote "international" conflicts that never needed to happen in the first place.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/14/02 05:50 PM
12.91.138.149
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>That depends. If your objective is to create an army ever-ready for war, there is little better way to do it
There are many better ways. Avoiding the artificial division of SLDF exiles into feuding Clans for one and just running regular training exercises (live fire and not). Live fire exercises are hardly more stupid than what the Clans do and they avoid wasteful conflict over Kerensky's hankerchief and the like.
And, y'know, Kerensky's intention wasn't necessarily a good one.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/14/02 05:54 PM
12.91.138.149
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>But what about the non-demilitarized ones? The special chosen few who got to be warriors?
800, less combat losses in the Pentagon campaign? 800 people out of 3 million survivors? Let them play with their mechs and tanks. 3 million people can support a militia of 800. A small militia with some brute military force would be good for keeping the peace after the civil war, too.
>But they didn't, and therefore must fight over limited resources
There's no "must" in there. If the Clans held to their "waste not" ideal, they would've started conserving resources by not fighting at all, leading back to the explore/colonize phase.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
06/14/02 08:39 PM
210.50.60.205
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Hmm. I came off a lot more confrontational than I intended. Many apologies.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Spartan
06/14/02 10:03 PM
172.140.62.207
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none needed.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Nightward
06/15/02 06:03 AM
210.50.62.226
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OK. My other responses to this thread have either been:
a). Rambling.
b). Incoherent.
c). Weak, or
d.) All of the above.
So now I will attempt to structure an argument that is coherent, concise, and strong. Here goes nothing:
“For a society that "abhors waste", the Clans are masters at making sure that, once a battle is begun, there will be the maximum possible destruction...of both sides! This comes from two aspects:
1. Bidding
2. Zellbrigen.”
I will reply to the bidding part first. What you have missed in your bidding rant is the part that precedes it; the Ritual of Challenge. This is obviously based on medieval challenges; the challenger declares his (or her) lineage, declares what they want as isorla (which could be anything from wanting to win an argument to Annihilating an entire Clan), and invites their opponent to meet them at a specified time and place. Choice insults are usually hurled at this time. The challenged party can either decline the challenge, bringing a loss of honour (not something you would want as a Clan Warrior) or accept the challenge and declare the weapons to be used. If it is a military campaign, at this time the challenged party will declare the forces they will defend with. The attackers then go away and bid for the honour of leading the attack. The object of bidding is to come as close to having the minimal force to win. This is a test of both courage and ingenuity. The very process of bidding reduces waste by ensuring that the best commander for the job wins it (or at least, if not the best commander, the one with the biggest balls, so to speak) and should have little trouble dealing with their opponent. The best commander will loose fewer warriors in the ensuing combat, and should know how to get where they are going with minimum fuss. The very action of attacking with less than all available forces reduces waste; how much more fuel ad time is required to prepare and move a Galaxy if a single Star can do the job? A Galaxy on the move would be a good object lesson in power to an opponent, but if you can do it with a Star, what’s the point? This situation can be demonstrated early on Operation revival, where the Wolf Clan would send in one or two Trinaries to take out an Inner Sphere regiment. Twenty-odd OmniMechs could destroy four times as many Inner Sphere machines, so why mobilise three Clusters (roughly numerically equal) to do the job?
In short, attacking with minimal forces reduces *POTENTIAL* waste, not actual, physical waste. It is up to the individual commanders to minimise waste of personnel and equipment; this is not part of the bidding procedure and to attack bidding as wasteful is simply missing the point.
Now, on to Zellbrigen. No-one doubts that a WarShip orbitally bombarding the enemy, or ganging up 20:1 will reduce the time spent in the fight, but what exactly is the point? Imagine how much material is wasted f a WarShip bombards the target? First, you have the energy or ammunition used in the barrage, then you have the damage done to the target. As well as flattening any inconveniently placed, nearby mountain ranges, you have just obliterated 'Mechs, Elementals etc that you could have collected as salvage. And if you missed and set a forest on fire, or smashed a major city by mistake, what then? You have to waste more resources putting the fire out or rebuilding the city, and then you have to expend more effort getting your newly-acquired civilians to trust you. That is a lot of effort to go to. And in the ganging-up example, is it not likely that when the enemy falls, that a missile cluster or AutoCannon volley will miss the target? Could not it have been used later? Yes.
So, is it not better if like attacks like? One 'Mech against one 'Mech. One WarShip against another WarShip. Again, in this situation it is up to the individual warriors to limit the wasteful expenditure of material; the process of Zellbrigen is already limiting waste by insuring that inappropriate force is not used.
This has the side effect of promoting personal honour, and allows Warriors better chances at gaining the chance to compete for promotions and Bloodrights.
Another thing that was brought up is the Sibko/Warrior Training methods used by the Clans. It is true that not every Warrior that is created, or every Freebirth that tests into the Warrior caste will pass their training. Is this not the case with every education system? If a Warrior fails, they have done so. The system has not failed them. They have failed in the system. I seriously doubt that a single failure would be enough to warrant expulsion from a Sibko, even in the Blood Spirits. Warriors would be given extra chances. They would be allowed to re-take the test after extra training. They would be placed on probation. I seriously doubt they would be expelled from Warrior training for incorrectly spelling words in an essay. Expulsion would be a last resort, used if a cadet consistently fails tests or does something that required truly inspired stupidity to achieve-such as demolishing their Khan’s HQ with a mis-placed missile volley.
So only a handful of cadets make it through. This is the case everywhere. In today’s world, not everyone finishes High School. Fewer go onto tertiary education. Even fewer go on to earn post-graduate degrees. How many people have Ph.D.s? Not many. Why? It’s hard to earn one. You have to be one of the very best, most dedicated people in your field. Would that not be the case within warrior training as well? I believe so.
Now, on to the Trial of Position. Some Clans (the Steel Vipers) require their cadets to square off to even get into the Trial. When they are there, they face one 'Mech of a lighter class than theirs, one of the same class, and one heavier. Some Clans (again, the Vipers and Spirits) require their cadets to face heavier machinery. Defeating one opponent earns you the post of Warrior, two the position of Star Commander, and so on and so forth. Other sub-Castes face similar challenges. There is a very real chance that a warrior or cadet could die. Same as in a real fight. In this way, the Clan insures that the very best cadets become Warriors. To become a Warrior means that you are better than a Warrior who already serves in the Touman. If a Cadet falls, it means they could not improve the Clan by joining the caste. And if a Warrior dies, it means that they were probably fading- I mean, they got killed by an eighteen-year-old cadet.
Granted, if a Warrior dies or a cadet fails, all of the material and time taken to get them there is wasted. But let’s assume that the person who lived through the fight was just 10% better than the one that did not (not unreasonable, since the other failed.). We will assume that that warrior will fight once a month (not unreasonable, given the tensions between the Clans) and that their career will last ten years (the average “lifespan” of a Warrior). This means that they will use *1,200%* less ammunition in their career. Their 'Mech will require *1,200%* less repairs. They will cause *1,200%* less loss of life for their unit members. And they will gain *1,200%* more objectives for their Clan. Stack all those together, and you see why having a slightly better Warrior is a good thing. I’m no mathematician, but that’s how I see things working. If I’m right, though, that is a lot of waste saved by that warrior. Now imagine how many Warriors serve in a Clan Touman. Then think about how many Warrior generations have served. How much waste has been saved then?
Further testing out for positions only reinforces this. Only the best gain command rights, so this further minimises wasteful loss of material and life.
Another Clan feature that was attacked was the Trial of Bloodright. Death and dismemberment is a real risk here. But it ensures that only the very best Warriors earn their Bloodnames.. Since Warrior training improves the quality of each generation, it makes sense to give them the very best of the past generation. Each slight improvement in quality reduces potential waste.
In sum, the Way of the Clans is geared to reduce *POTENTIAL* waste. By using the best available, they limit what could be wasted. By using minimal force, they limit what could be wasted. By fighting one-on-one, they limit what could be wasted. The Way of the Clans is good; what individual warriors do causes waste.
I’ll finish off with something my woodwork teachers drilled into my head (no, not literally): “Measure twice, cut once.”
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
06/15/02 08:19 AM
12.91.138.114
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>No-one doubts that a WarShip orbitally bombarding the enemy, or ganging up 20:1 will reduce the time spent in the fight, but what exactly is the point?
Reduce your side's losses and thus waste.
>Imagine how much material is wasted f a WarShip bombards the target
Eh...it ain't MY material.
>This has the side effect of promoting personal honour, and allows Warriors better chances at gaining the chance to compete for promotions and Bloodrights
As if those were worthwhile goals. Bragging rights and a last name.
>Now, on to the Trial of Position
Monumental waste: live-fire combat.
>We will assume that that warrior will fight once a month (not unreasonable, given the tensions between the Clans) and that their career will last ten years (the average “lifespan” of a Warrior). This means that they will use *1,200%* less ammunition in their career. Their 'Mech will require *1,200%* less repairs. They will cause *1,200%* less loss of life for their unit members. And they will gain *1,200%* more objectives for their Clan. Stack all those together...
And thus you see how enormously wasteful the Clans' system of legitimized combat is. How much fighting do you have to do to get 1200% savings in spent war material?
>Further testing out for positions only reinforces this
More waste.
>The Way of the Clans is good
Their whole system is geared for criminal levels of waste of very expensively built war machines.
Had Nicholas merged the SLDF exiles into one big, happy nation rather than 20 feuding neighbors, incredible amounts of waste would be avoided. Destruction and absorption of whole Clans was epic waste, gunning down rioting civilians rather than breaking out firehouses and teargas was epic waste, stealing from their neighboring Clan rather than building their own mines, factories, and colonies was epic waste, investing in a continually maintained military to fight their sibling exiles was epic waste, and the whole Clan command economy is just wasteful...it just goes on and on and on...
The Clans reduce waste *for both sides* when they go to war over such matters by limiting the scale of the warfare, but they miss the possibility of reducing waste for their side alone with overwhelming firepower or avoiding the waste of warfare by not fighting at all by never having been divided in the first place.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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KamikazeJohnson
06/15/02 01:41 PM
209.202.47.12
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I have read over the many posts to this thread, and have seen the issue tackled from just about every possible angle. I find it very interesting that with the number of different views, I don't think anyone was actually "wrong", since each point was valid from the given perspective. Having never read the novels, or many of the Sourcebooks, I learned a great deal about the Clan system, and a few new thoughts have occurred to me (a daily occurrance, I swear!)
Anyway, here's my take on the whole Clan Wastefulness issue...if I make any glaring "historical" errors, feel free to correct me.:)
First of all, the core of NathanKell's initial tirade (which seems to have gotten lost in this fascinating debate) wasn't merely that the Clan system is wasteful, but that that wastefulness in inconsistent with "a society that abhors waste." An important thing to remember is that that descriptive implicitly refers to "unnecessary waste"--a point I will return to later.
The main arguments presented were as follows:
1) The bidding system is wasteful, since it maximies casualties among the victors.
2) Zellbrigen is wasteful since it eliminates the "n-squared" law of numerical superiority.
3) Bidding isn't entirely wasteful since it limits the scale of engagements.
4) The Clan Socio-political structure is inherently wasteful, since it encourages constant warfare.
5) "Moderated" warfare is still more wasteful than peace.
I think a good place to begin an exhaustive analysis is wityh Nicholas Kerensky, the guy who caused all this. It's fairly clear that the society he created is extremely wasteful, at least militarily (I wouldn't be surprised if civilian life is incredibly efficient...they have to conserve resources so the military can waste them, after all). However, I think the important point is that he believed that what he was doing was the best thing for his people. He may have been wrong, but that's what he believed. Over time, the entire population has become convinced that their way of life is more or less necessary to fulfil their destiny. So, although any Clanner with half a brain knows that their system is wasteful relative to a peaceful society, they accept that waste, since the military society is necessary i.e. no unnecessary waste.
Now, given that a military society generates a repulsive amount of "necessary" or "acceptable" waste, it is a natural step folr them to want to minimize the cost of combat without limiting the frequency of combat (since frequent combat is necessary training for their "destiny", remember). Hence bidding, which has several effects. First, it prevents escalation by limiting forces to those stated in advance. Second, it enhances creativity among the commanders, since they must worry about the composition of their force, rather than just the size, in order to undercut their bidding opponents. I could imagine a bewildering variety of forces and tactics being tried out in order to win with a very marginal bid. This has the general effect of improving the overall efficiency of the military in future engagements.
The down side to bidding is that it maximizes losses among the victors. 2 vs 2 leaves a sigle tattered 'Mech at the end, while 4 vs 2 leaves 3 untouched and possibly one battered 'Mech at the end. Cluster vs Trinary has an even more dramatic saving compared to Trinary vs Trinary. HOwever, if a Clan got a reputation for always attacking at 3:1 or 4:1 odds, no defender would send just a single Trinary. Rather, a defender would send a large enough force that the attacker would be unable to achieve a 3:1 advantage. The end result? Cluster vs Cluster rather than Trinary vs Trinary...a hefty price for a couple easy early victories.
Zellbrigen, OTOH, is wasteful, since numerical superiority has absolutely no effect on the losses sufferd in battle. However, "honourable" combat is a necessary side-effect of a Warrior-cast society, so that wastefulness can also be shrugged off as "necessary", but there are nevertheless some advantages. Consider this: on an IS 3025 battlefield, a 1/0 pilot in a Stalker is wreakinh havok everywhere he goes. What happens once the enemy realizes how dangerous he is? All out gang-bang, of course: the entire enemy force dumps everything they have on the unfortunate hero, reducing his fearsome 'Mech to slag in at most three rounds. An expensive, very effective 'Mech is destroyed (likely with very little left to salvage) and an elite 'Mechwarrior is quite possibly injured or killed. Consider a Clan analogy: A 1/0 'Mechwarrior in a Timber Wolf is the most feared presence on the field. He engages several 'Mechs in sing;e combat, destroys each in turn with only minimal damage, and goes home when there's no one left to fight. The very effective Timber Wolf remains operational, and the elite 'Mechwarrior survives to contribute hos expertise and genetics to the next generation. A Darwinian system to improve the overall efficiency of the military, since superior 'Mechwarriors in superior 'Mechs win battles with far fewer losses, and therefore less waste.
It seems to me that, while the Clan socio-political structure is wasteful by its nature, rules such as bidding have appeared in a marginally successful attempt to minimize the cost of wafare. ("Marginally" because less costly battles means more battles). Other traditions, such as Zellbrigen, are wasteful, but an automatic result of the S-P structure, and are still not without advantage.
(But don't get me wrong, I completly agree with Cray's thesis that they'd be better off if Nicholas had been a hippy treehugger..."peace and love, man...."
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Cray
06/15/02 02:06 PM
64.83.29.242
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Within the confines of the Clan system, the Clan combat system DOES reduce waste.
It's when you look at the Clan system from the outside that it looks appallingly wasteful.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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NathanKell
06/15/02 03:34 PM
24.44.238.62
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Yep.
A thoughtful treatise, and one I agree with.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
TenakaFurey
06/16/02 06:52 AM
195.92.168.166
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AK left the IS to protect it from the SLDF.
He - not NK - set up a society and NK watched it fail and fall into the same hell he'd seen on Terra.
Which was why he wnated to change it. He believed aggression, war and so on were a antural consequence of humanity.A ny attemptt o suppress it woudl only create problems furtehr down the road. Insteda, the society he created sought to channel that aggression through the Trial system.
In this way, he also hoped to produce skilled, hardened warriors who would be able to re establish the Star League in the image of his new society - one without the flaws that had caused the first to fall. So, IMO, the crusaders have the right idea in that they wre meant to invade, but have forgotten the reason for the exercise.
As for saying the Jagaurs were wiped out for attacking civilians - no. The IS powers couldn't have cared less. They chose the Jaguars for a number of reasons. That in doing so they establisehd the war cry "Remember Turtle Bay" was a side issue.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
06/16/02 06:59 AM
195.92.168.166
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Had Nicholas merged the SLDF exiles into one big, happy nation rather than 20 feuding neighbors, incredible amounts of waste would be avoided.
- I believe AK tried this first. Didn't it fail?
;-)
EJL
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Cray
06/16/02 07:31 AM
12.91.120.163
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Big Al tried it when the SLDF exiles were a bunch of forcibly demobilized soldiers who suddenly found out farming and being colonists wasn't all that fun.
Nicholas got to work with 3 million people exhausted by 2 decades of warfare and thus were willing to accept even his rule. All the barriers to Big Al's happy society were gone.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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novakitty
06/16/02 11:47 AM
209.242.100.230
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There are always reasons for humans to fight. The 3 million in question might be happy with peace (as a change from constant battle), but their children, or maybe grandchildren would find more reasons for war.
Read up on history before declaring what the species will do. Peace as a result of exhastion does not last.
meow
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KamikazeJohnson
06/16/02 12:25 PM
209.202.47.12
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>>Peace as a result of exhastion does not last.<<
That may be true, but it is a great way of establishing unity in the first place. With no outside enemies, it would be easy to demilitarize a society, limiting future troubles to riots or less. Future generations may have plenty to fight about, but without any kind of structure labelling "friend" and "enemy", a full-scale conflict is unlikely.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Cray
06/16/02 02:59 PM
12.91.128.157
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>There are always reasons for humans to fight. The 3 million in question might be happy with peace (as a change from constant battle), but their children, or maybe grandchildren would find more reasons for war
Don't mistake an urge for violence as an urge for war. The Clan society was artificially arranged to generate as much society-level conflict (war) as possible. A unified society almost certainly would have had criminal violence as children forgot the horrors of the Civil War, but without artificial division into feuding Clans, it would have been limited small scale (individual) criminal violence...not war.
Why do you think a unified, post Civil War Exodus society is immediately going to turn into a clone of an unstable Central or South American nation?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (06/16/02 03:04 PM)
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Greyslayer
06/16/02 05:26 PM
137.172.211.9
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'd.) All of the above.'
A Bid in no way means that the rest of the unit does absolutely nothing. In fact most challenges require the commander of the force to issue a challenge to a defender who gives up the force they are defending with. This allows the commander who brought usually more than enough attacking forces to lower his forces to a more honourable level. All the forces involved still need to be transported, maintained and so on so even not fielding units is wastage. Why not just declare 1 week ahead that you will challenge certain sites with certain units where you have said certain units and transport what you need only in those bids? Certainly less wasteful and within the constraints of their wacky system.
'This has the side effect of promoting personal honour, and allows Warriors better chances at gaining the chance to compete for promotions and Bloodrights.'
So under that system the most competent at wasting material is given promotion? Just because they can kill and waste does not make them a good leader (maybe a good politician but they never rate highly anyway). Only larger-scale battles are where leadership in the form of strategy come into play for clanners so under there system of small combat where can they learn such a thing without having the large-sized conflicts that certainly waste alot?
'When they are there, they face one 'Mech of a lighter class than theirs, one of the same class, and one heavier.'
That is clan subjective and also some basic rules were issued that gave out something like this:
5 tons lighter to 5 tons heavier as first mech
5 tons heavier to 15 tons heavier second mech
15 tons heavier to a unit of 100 tons for third unit.
As a personal system we preferred the old Ghost Bear one you are in a Vulture and you fight
either a Vulture or a Loki in your first fight
from a Loki (rare) up to a Mad Cat in your second
Executioner in your third (they were just sooooo common in the assult class for Ghost Bear there was little point of another mech) .
Experience of the troops you faced also went up as far as we could tell.
'They have failed in the system. I seriously doubt that a single failure would be enough to warrant expulsion from a Sibko, even in the Blood Spirits. Warriors would be given extra chances.'
Actually that would be a rare case. Aidan Pryde was given a second chance and that is basically 1/2 of the story in the 3 novel series is about how it wasn't the case that they can test again. I am not sure on all clans but most I think would not allow re-testing.
'Granted, if a Warrior dies or a cadet fails, all of the material and time taken to get them there is wasted. But let’s assume that the person who lived through the fight was just 10% better than the one that did not (not unreasonable, since the other failed.).'
Scenario:
Two Cadets:
Boris Gun 3 Pil 4 Thor D
Micky Gun 3 Pil 4 Thor Prime
They fight similar opponents:
MW Cindy Gun 3 Pil 3 Loki A
MW Billy-Bob Gun 3 Pil 3 Loki Prime
You will notice one has a better chance of completing his task than the other just based on the variants of the mech selected (one has a targeting computer while the other fights a tougher variant). I fail to see something as common as this would give the cadet a 10% improvment over the person they defeated or even the person that failed to qualify.
'Further testing out for positions only reinforces this. Only the best gain command rights, so this further minimises wasteful loss of material and life.'
So not necessarily those with best intelligence or even any real ability to give orders are needed, just pure intent to destroy each other. Cool, I thought the neanderthols were extinct for the same traits ..... *shrugs*
The number of words used does not necessarily change the outcome of an argument Michael at least you tried numbers to support your arguments this time .
Greyslayer
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Bob_Richter
06/17/02 03:54 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Had Nicholas merged the SLDF exiles into one big, happy nation rather than 20 feuding neighbors, incredible amounts of waste would be avoided. <<<
Maybe. But just look how much is wasted in American society. The amount we spend on styrofoam containers for our hamburgers could run the entire Clan military on an annual basis. We spend more money on LAWYERS than the Clans do on 'Mechs and Men combined.
Clearly, it would have been difficult to organize a more conventional society that wasted LESS or maintained military readiness in the absence of threat.
But we've had this argument before. Care to go another round, or shall we just agree to disagree?
>>>[orbitally bombarding or using overwhelming odds will] Reduce your side's losses and thus waste. <<<
Only if such an uneven match can be gained. You and I both know this leads to wasteful escalation.
So, in the short term, you may have a point, but in the long term, this leads to and incredibly wasteful arms race.
>>>Eh...it ain't MY material.<<<
Actually, it is. You just destroyed a significant portion of your isorla: Combat machines, fine warriors, etc. Valulable properties, to say nothing of the inevitable collateral damage.
>>>As if those were worthwhile goals. Bragging rights and a last name. <<<
As opposed to...securing a source of oil your country doesn't even need?
Keep in mind that Clan "Warfare" is just TRAINING. Any excuse to fight is a good one, as the real objective is to make warriors and heros, not to gain Kerensky's Dirty Underwear (by the way, this is the sort of thing only Goliath Scorpions fight over.)
>>>Monumental waste: live-fire combat.<<<
*NOT* a waste. The most realistic training in the world is no match for actual veterency. You want statistics to prove it?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
06/17/02 06:29 AM
64.83.29.242
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>Maybe. But just look how much is wasted in American society. The amount we spend on styrofoam containers for our hamburgers could run the entire Clan military on an annual basis.
I doubt it. Clans have a military about 1/10th the size of the US's. At the same price-per-soldier, that would mean the Clan military consumes about $30 billion annually. Would you show the figures indicating the annual US consumption of styrofoam fast food containers amounts to $30 billion?
>We spend more money on LAWYERS than the Clans do on 'Mechs and Men combined.
The comparison doesn't work. Paying lawyers just results in redistribution of wealth that the lawyers will put back into the economy. Clan combat results in permanent destruction of labor- and resource-intensive war machines.
>Only if such an uneven match can be gained. You and I both know this leads to wasteful escalation
That depends on the timing and when both sides call the war quits.
>Actually, it is. You just destroyed a significant portion of your isorla: Combat machines, fine warriors, etc. Valulable properties, to say nothing of the inevitable collateral damage.
What, Clans fight other Clans in the cities now? Collateral damage amounts to some churned up, uninhabited landscape.
As for isorla, that doesn't necessarily offset my losses from traditional Clan combat. The savings of orbital bombardment or overwhelming numbers are more likely to do so.
>As opposed to...securing a source of oil your country doesn't even need?
The excuses the US finds to go to war aren't necessary wise ones, either. However, at least the US got something that will be eventually useful out of the deal. Oil is certainly more useful than bragging rights.
>Keep in mind that Clan "Warfare" is just TRAINING. Any excuse to fight is a good one
No, most excuses for the Clans to fight are goofy ones predicated on the goofy plan to conquer the Inner Sphere, leading to a hypocritical amount of waste.
>*NOT* a waste. The most realistic training in the world is no match for actual veterency
This presumes the need for veterans. The SLDF in exile was isolated from military threats. It needs police and SAR groups, but there's nothing to fight around the worlds settled by Kerensky.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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novakitty
06/17/02 11:59 AM
209.242.100.230
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"The comparison doesn't work. Paying lawyers just results in redistribution of wealth that the lawyers will put back into the economy. Clan combat results in permanent destruction of labor- and resource-intensive war machines."
Wrong, most of a mech can be salvaged after a typical battle. Only in the case of a reactor explosion is the entire mech completely lost, and even then, the raw materials are just redistributed later on the same world where the combat occurred.
meow
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Cray
06/17/02 12:47 PM
64.83.29.242
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>Wrong, most of a mech can be salvaged after a typical battle
I didn't say mechs could not be salvaged. I said the money given to lawyers goes back into the economy. Mechs, salvaged or new, remain unproductive money sinks.
And please remember what a destroyed mech means. You don't salvage spent ammo, ablated armor, shot-up gyros, destroyed engines, or evaporated cockpits. Put some numbers on those expenses. Millions of C-bills when the engine and/or CT is destroyed, hundreds of thousands of C-bills for a new cockpit, 30K to 60K C-bills for a ton of LRM ammo...all spent in seconds of combat. You might get a salvaged mech for a new one, but it won't be inexpensive.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
06/17/02 05:44 PM
137.172.211.9
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Actually the destruction of the CT means the unit is just scrap. You would have to get a new CT to be able to rebuild the mech.
I am curious as too how people can equate the same expenditure in the US compared to Clan expenditure. The military in the Clan is a 'life', from birth to death quite otten that is all a person knows. The resources expended in bringing up personnel from that early a start is hard to compare to a system where someone joins at ages 17 to 43 (I think). Currently the US does not expend alot of 'solid' military resources (units such as tanks and aircraft), compared to clans who can lose Warships, dropships and aerospace fighters all in a single engagement. Pro-active combat vs Ammo expenditure militaries are hardly a effective comparrison.
Greyslayer
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Nightmare
06/18/02 10:46 AM
194.251.240.107
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>>Wrong, most of a mech can be salvaged after a typical battle.
But many clanners consider salvage barbaric, don`t they? Dishonorable enough that they might not want to touch a mech that`s been repaired with salvaged parts, since it`s less than pure.
OK, I got that idea from reading the briefings etc in MechWarrior 2 way back when I used to play it. They said that Natasha Kerensky even ordered her forces to use salvage in order to keep fighting, implying that it was a very unpleasant thing to do.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Cray
06/18/02 11:27 AM
64.83.29.242
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No, I think Clanners are quite hot to salvage what they can. They've got the whole concept of Isorla (sp?), getting battlefield loot. And omni-tech makes it easy to get good parts off a mech. In their hypocritical way, the Clans are quite good about reducing waste.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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