Editing Talk:List of BattleTech Print Novels and Anthologies

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== Name of page ==

The name of the page doesn't seem to match its content.  Shouldn't this be titled "List of BattleTech Print Novels and Anthologies"?  Either (i) renaming or (ii) splitting off anthologies into their own directory/list page would seem to make sense.  Does anyone have a preference between (i) or (ii)?  I am leaning towards (i) myself. --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 20:18, 28 October 2021 (EDT)

: I'm liking (i) also. If there were already an anthologies-only list (I tried 3 permutations), I'd stick with it, but there isn't. 
: Since the primary point of the list (which has to be maintained in parallel with the same categories) is to summarize the product showcased ''with'' a cover image, I can understand why short stories are not included in this list.--[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 06:36, 29 October 2021 (EDT)

::In surveying the list, I found that [[The Spider and the Wolf]] is also in this list.  This appears to qualify as either a comic (and also short fiction).  So a slightly broader term seems approrpiate.  I am thinking "List of BattleTech Print Fiction" will expand such enough to encompass such without extending to include sourcebooks as well.  (Note: "Literature" is a possible alternative to "Fiction", but "Print Literature" could be considered to encompass promotional materials, i.e., pamphlets, flyers, etc.)  So I am leaning towards "Print Fiction" here.  But I am open to others' thoughts.

::Side Note: This may have ramification for the naming of the corresponding foreign language lists, e.g., [[List of BattleTech print novels in spanish]], if or when they include anything beyond novels.  So it is reasonable to consider what term would define the collection of novels, short stories, and anthologies in a general context.  "Fiction" seems like the appropriate term in the general context as well.  --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 09:07, 30 October 2021 (EDT)

:::I would remove the Spider and the Wolf. I do not have access to the wikis metadata but I am pretty sure "List of BattleTech print novels" will be one of our highest hitters for google searches, thus a major source of newbies finding our wiki I imagine. And as another secondary consideration beyond the foreign language lists would be the fact that most short stories do not have cover art, and as they outnumber the novels, it would mean the article needs a redesign. Since the article design is uniform across the novel lists and looks good. I would say "Don't fix what ain't broken" rename it "List of BattleTech Print Novels and Anthologies" and leave it at that.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 09:19, 30 October 2021 (EDT)

::::Good points, Dmon.  The searchability factor (both for internal and external searches) is definitely a strong argument for "Print Novels and Anthologies".  Including short stories would indeed mean some rework of the page.  However, the number of print short stories (meaning short stories that were published individually in print form) might actually be quite small.  In fact, are there any beyond [[The Spider and the Wolf]]?  I do not know.  In any case, simplicity (avoiding a major revamp of the page's content) and searchability would argue for "Print Novels and Anthologies".  --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 11:26, 30 October 2021 (EDT)

:::::There was a time when products, even novels, were physical products by default. That time is over, but I'm having a very hard time reshuffling and redefining the wiki structure around this. This article is a good example for the problems that come with the paradigm shift in publication - new novels are coming out, but "print" has lost all relevance as a distinguishing property. In that sense, this article is of largely historical value, not so much as an up-to-date representation anymore. I'd still like to keep it. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 04:52, 31 October 2021 (EDT)

::::::Frabby, your comment raises some interesting thoughts, which I will raise in a separate section. --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 14:46, 31 October 2021 (EDT)

==Removing "Print" from "Print Novels and Anthologies"==
I am wondering if it may make sense to simply remove the word "Print" from the title of this page, i.e. retitle it "List of BattleTech Novels and Anthologies" and then redevelop (gradually) as needed, say by adding sections or entries for novels/anthologies not currently contained.  I surmise that none of what is given here would need to removed.  Any recent or forthcoming novels/anthologies not included could be added as individual entries (or as their own section if needed for sake of formatting or grouping).

With individual short stories still excluded from this list, it would have a well defined niche and it would not be inundated by the sheer volume of short stories. (If a short story directory was desired, such could be formed as a separate page (if someone had the desire/will), but otherwise [[:Category:Short Stories]] works as a short story directory.)  

Such would be a natural companion to pages like [[BattleTech boxed set]], [[Mapsheet]], and [[Miniatures]].  I believe someone is seeking to create something similar for rulebooks as well.  Defining these kind of summary pages by type (rather than type and format) seems to make more sense to me.  [FYI: The summary article [[Mapsheet]] is an example of a page that started out being devoted to physical products but which now includes both physical and digital products, so perhaps its example may be helpful.]

This is an initial idea.  I haven't thought through all the logistics yet.  In particular, one question I don't know the answer to is the following:

:Q1: How many novels or anthologies are there that are purely digital (with no print or print on demand option)?

If any have an answer to this question or you have further thoughts on the idea of removing the print distinction for this page, please share.  --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 14:46, 31 October 2021 (EDT)

:Having thought about it for some time, yes, I agree this is the way forward. The article should ditch the publication venue and publisher and should be transformed into "BattleTech fiction publications" - essentially a subset of the "BattleTech products" article, and organized in much the same fashion, most importantly by year instead of publisher or product line. Also, besides listing every novel, novella and anthology in the fashion already established by this article I want a rundown of published short stories (links!) for every anthology, treating each year of BattleCorps as an anthology unto itself. That should result in a complete fiction rundown, except for sourcebook fiction/rulebook fiction. We may discuss adding these in too once the bulk of the article restructuring is done.
:Comments welcome. If nobody objects I will simply start reworking the article in a few weeks' time. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 01:17, 8 March 2023 (EST)

::Hello Frabby.  It is clear that you have been cooking on this for a bit.  Here are some immediate thoughts.
::1) I would strongly concur with the idea of removing the ‘print ‘ constraint.  I don’t think the issue of format (whether something is print or digital) should be a top-level separator.
::2) I do like the idea of creating a unified page to address both long fiction and short fiction.  (That would make this into a fiction portal.)  I surmise that the amount of short fiction will pose some logistical questions.  (I see 632 article entries under [[:Category:Short Stories]] entres.)  Using concise lists/tables for short fiction (without giving synopses for each short story) may make that viable.  Your idea of subdividing BattleCorps by year would also seem to help.
::3) In terms of adopting a ‘by year’ in place of the current ‘by publisher’ or ‘by line’ method at the top level, I am somewhat cautious.  I think that there is some merit to the ‘by publisher/line’ classification.  It is easier to give context to the group coming from a single publisher/line when they are grouped.  For instance, having the novels that were originally in German grouped together would make it convenient to give one quick statement about the line’s background and its relation to canon.  Whereas having those intertwined with other publishing lines would complicate that.  Also, the ‘by publisher/line’ method might be more compatible with (and permit integration of) the foreign edition lists, such as [[List of BattleTech Print Novels in Spanish]] and [[List of BattleTech Print Novels in Hungarian]].
::These are some immediate thoughts. (I may cook on item 3 a bit more.)  I am interested to see/hear further comments.  --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 18:58, 8 March 2023 (EST)
:::In effect, we need to create a Fiction Portal.
:::I suggest we don’t cover all short stories with a summary like we do for novels; just give the story's name plus a one-liner at best or the article will explode.
:::As for foreign language editions, these are only relevant (imho) where original fiction was produced. As far as I know, that’s only true for the German novels plus a bunch of Japanese (graphic?) novels; all other foreign language editions are just translations.
:::(Not) Sorting by publisher: Suggest to approach this just like on the Products page. Perhaps use a sortable table. Coincidentally, going by year by and large also means going by publisher anyways. In addition, I would keep the Overview section explaining who was publishing what and when. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 01:38, 9 March 2023 (EST)

::::Either a Fiction portal or a Fiction landing page.  By the way, check out [[Portal Prototype]] for a preliminary example of a ''portal''.  For an example of what I would call a ''landing page'', see [[Miniatures]].  As I have thought about it, a portal should not be the list page itself, but a reasonably brief overview and directory to the area, almost like the main page but over a smaller area of the wiki.  (It would be an on-ramp for readers and editors.)  Of course, it would link to the appropriate 'list of' pages.
::::I wonder if it will make sense to create one fiction list page or whether it might be better to create two: one for novels and a second for short stories and anthologies of short stories.  When I was creating the miniatures lists, I realized that the list of Iron Wind Metals miniatures was simply so large that it had to be split off into a [[Miniatures - Iron Wind Metals|page of its own]] or it would become unwieldy.  I suspect that a similar scenario might occur for short fiction.  Also since we have the foreign editions on their own pages, it is already the case that it won't be a full fiction list by itself.  With them subdivided, I think it would be reasonable to adopt (and easier to enforce) a terser format/style for the short stories.  Also, it would seem reasonable to also include short stories from rulebooks and box sets if a page was purely devoted to a list of short stories.  The portal page would then help people understand the interrelation of the full group of pages.  --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 17:39, 9 March 2023 (EST)
:::::1) What is the difference between a Portal page and a Landing page (or a masthead, for that matter)? I was under the impression that we sort fields of subjects into Portals. An existing example would be [[BattleTechWiki:Spacecraft Portal]]. I'm not actually sure if we have other portals right now.
:::::2) I see your Portal Prototype is already built as a Fiction Portal page. I like that. Do you mind if I edit that portal page directly?
:::::3) Finally, I suggest we move this talk to [[Talk:Portal Prototype]]. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 05:27, 10 March 2023 (EST)
Yes, let's move the conversation about the Fiction portal over to [[Talk:Portal Prototype]].  So I will answer questions 1 and 2 there.  Also there is a separate item that I will spin off into its own section here. --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 07:45, 10 March 2023 (EST)

== Literary Product vs. Creative Work ==

In discusssing fiction, one distinction that may be helpful to keep in mind is the distinction between a ''product'' and a ''creative work''.  In the context of novels, each product consists of one creative work (with omnibus volumes being an exception).  For short fiction, we have anthologies (which are one product) consisting of multiple creative works.  So it will be important to define whether we are seeking to index the various literary ''products'' or to index ''creative works''.  For short fiction this is an important distinction to thresh out.  (Note: This page is currently set up to index literary products rather than works of fiction.)

For miniatures, there was a similar issue.  A ''miniature'' is generally a component of a product.  But there were products that were simply one or more miniatures.  The category [[:Category:Miniatures]] concerns the miniatures as components while [[Category:Miniature Sets]] references products principally consisting of miniatures.

I think we may need to make a distinction between literary products (the unit for retail or distribution, whether print or digital) and literary works (the unit for purposes of indexing fiction), especially as we expand to consider short fiction.  This is also a way to resolve the handling short fiction contained in other products.  A piece of short fiction is in many cases a component of certain products (and worthy of being indexed within fiction) but it is not a standalone product.  --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 08:39, 10 March 2023 (EST)