Durango
07/12/02 09:40 PM
24.164.47.91
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In reply to:
D>Scale is enough In fact, it's too much.
Problem is, if you're using miniatures rules, there's already scale conversions.
Again. It's not the minis that make CBT. It's the rules and the record sheets.
Again, I already commented on this.
In reply to:
D>What you seem to be ignoring is that it is more than just Karagin who says so.
C>So just because 100 (or 1000) people hold the same opinion, that makes them right?
No, it simply means that it's more than just Karagin who feels that way. If you recall, you said,
"Because YOU, Karagin say so right?"...which was patently incorrect. I just felt like taking the opportunity to point out that you were wrong. (Although, truth be known, I've done it so much now it's getting old...kinda like I'm always doing that.)
In reply to:
D>but there was a massive backlash at Wizkids when we all first heard of it
C>No? REALLY? It's not like I didn't report on it at GenCon 2001.
Really. I'm suprised that you don't remember...oh, but wait...this is an overreaction, a melodramatic ploy to be sarcastic. Heh. But then, because I was pointing out that you were wrong, I'm sure that this was just your petulant reaction to being wrong. Sux to be wrong, don't it?
In reply to:
D>We're out here, trying to stop the spin.
C>If you say so. It sounds more like disgruntled griping because the world doesn't work the way you think it ought to, to me.
I say so. And it sounds like you resent people would attempt to counter the spin, to me. Funny how that works, eh? More viewpoints than just your own out here. Suprise!
In reply to:
C>And "quit in disgust at the insult"?
It's a GAME for chrissakes. You know. A hobby. A passtime. It's not like it was your kid or something.
Well, no. Not to me, anyway. But there are people out there who had a GIANT investment in it. Why don't you go tell them? I haven't quit yet. But they have, and I've read letters from people like them on other boards, and in the e-Bay descriptions when they dumped their collections.
In reply to:
D>But I don't think that Battletech enjoys a single thing about it.
C>You're free to THINK whatever you want. Just as I'm free to tell you when you're wrong.
You're free to TELL me that you THINK I'm wrong. In fact I'm not, but feel free to tell me that you think I am. And accordingly, I'll feel free to correct your misguided thinking, or ignore you, as the case calls for.
In reply to:
D>Sure, lower barrier, but it will NOT have the result of putting kids into the Battletech market.
C>And you know this HOW?
Educated guess, based on gathered facts.
In reply to:
D>They could have, at first, but they didn't want to.
C>What would have been the point? It would then have merely been an adjunct to the CBT game. Take a look at what happened to other adjuncts.
BattleTroops
AeroTech
CityTech
Solaris7
BattleSpace
All of them pretty much BOMBED.
WK already had a basic game mechanic in click-base that was selling VERY well. Why sit there and slap together something else?
I'm aware of all this. I merely said that they COULD have done it that way.
In reply to:
D>My GOD, I have been saying this from the beginning. And I have been right, all along.
C>Don't mind the guffawing. That's just me laughing at your delusions of self-importance.
No, it's ok, go ahead. I've gotten used to your over-inflated egotism.
In reply to:
D>Yes, go ahead and gloat...the propoganda has disgusted and discouraged yet another previously loyal fan.
C>You're loyal?
Pfft.
Heh. Well, let's put it this way...I'm not advocating an opposing system which will snuff out my game.
Besides, you haven't discouraged me yet. Disgusted sure, but you haven't discouraged me.
In reply to:
D>Because they did everything in their power (short of giving up profits) to snuff us out.
C>Yeah. They're trying to snuff CBT. That's why they licensed it out for continued development and expansion.
Ah, there you go again, not reading what I'm typing! I said, "short of giving up profits"...the only reason FanPro was given any license was because it resulted in royalties...that'd be profits, you see?
PAY ATTENTION.
In reply to:
D>Nobody can see why, even though I point it out everywhere I go
C>So you run around going "It isn't CBT! It isn't CBT!" and be thanked for it?
Well thank you Captain Obvious, but we already KNEW that.
No, no! Thank YOU for that snide remark!
In reply to:
D>Ok what I just heard was "They're going to plagarize whatever they can use for this new pseudo-Battletech ruleset, but damned if they'll let you use your minis."
C>What plagiaism? They own the IP for the universe and game systems.
I notice that you addressed the plagarism part.
In reply to:
D>Which, of course, means that people who get started playing with Overpriced Cheap Plastic will have zero reason to buy anything from FanPro.
If they only want to play MW:DA? You're right.
If they begin getting drawn into the universe more and want to play a game with more depth? Then they get pointed to CBT.
Except why would they do that when they can play pseudo-rules with the OPC they already have? More likely, they'll be pointed to the new pseudo-rules by...WIZKIDS.
In reply to:
D>Sorry, FRIEND.
C>Well. First off, I'm NOT your friend. I don't know you. And, from your conduct here and elsewhere, I probably don't want to. So cut the smarmy BS.
Ooh! (fret, fret) What will I do? Chas doesn't want to be my friend (worry, worry)
Whatever.
In reply to:
D>I'm gonna stay right here, making sure people know what they're doing when they support this new farce.
C>If you behave yourself, you'll stay here. If you want to rant and rave and proclaim the end of the world, that's up to you. Have fun.
Well, judging by your conduct and the absolute lack of action, I'd say that this board grants far more lattitude than CBT...but then, Warner's little Napoleon complex can't really exert itself here, can it?
Instead of warning me indirectly about making sure I behave myself, perhaps you could examine your own conduct. As Warner might say: Luke 6:41-42 "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?"
Heh. The bible is such a powerful tool, used properly...but then, he knows that too. At least, one of his identities does.
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Warner_Doles
07/12/02 09:42 PM
206.27.48.9
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Man, that gets old fast.
That you would continue to lash out at me attack me at every opportunity. Even after I made my last statement to you on the incident you are using to fuel your hate and desire to make life miserable for me. Yes its getting old.
Interesting...is this the same e-mail addy your alter-identity uses?
Yes it is. There is no altered identity. Never has been. You've just seen my authoritative side because of the incident. But what you are doing here far exceeds anything I've seen in a long while. And this, these actions you've taken against me is what you call... "Christ like?"
Prove it.
Don't have to. "We will know them by their fruits." You can quote all the scripture you want Dave, it still doesn't remove the fact that the only one here that has been posting ugly and hateful remarks has not me when it concerns the both of us.
Hence... I turn my cheek...and again and again and again...
I will say this one more time in hopes that you will see and understand before everyone else...(including Scott who has made some similar thoughts: (put it to email Scott if you want to know).):
That I came down on you for your conduct and treatment of a member of the message board, an administrator and another human being that was trying to be helpful to you. Yet you saw it as an attack much like you are assuming that Chas is doing to you (Let me tell you, Chas has not even let go yet. He hasn't come even close. When he goes off neither you nor I or anyone else on this board stands a chance against his keen and dangerous tongue.), when he isn't. He is showing you great patience. I didn't show you patience because I have zero tolerance for people attacking others in the manner you did. You may not have seen that, but a great many did and my email box filled up because of it. Maybe I should have taken it to a PM but I didn't. That's my mistake and I was wrong for that. I can accept my mistakes and own up to them. I have never shied from that and never will.
I believe that if you put aside all the animosity and anger and truly look at my message you’ll understand that. And to show you that I just didn’t single you out, I did the same thing with a good friend of mine, Erich. My dressing down for his conduct. And you can read his reply to what I said here. Erich understood what I was saying and my intent.
Dave you want to hate and make know that you hate MechWarrior Darkage and let the world know it. Have at it. I’ll stand behind you and support your right to do so. I spent almost 15 years of my life defending this country so you could have that right. What I will not defend or stand is some using their opinion and voice to cause pain for someone just because they have that opinion. As I said to you, ‘[I] I will not put up with this from anyone on this message board JUST BECAUSE ITS YOUR OPINION. Because your opinion does not mean you can speak to people in the manner as you just did.[/I]’ I have said to many others. I hold that standard to myself. And when I screw up and say something I shouldn’t I am wrong. I believe I have tried my best to be restrained in the face of what you have been doing since your letters to me. Had I not, well…the old timers here on Sarna know what I am capable of being if I did. And I don’t plan on ever allowing that to happen.
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Durango
07/12/02 10:16 PM
24.164.47.91
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quote] D> (To Warner) What? No? Why not? Because that's the one little bit of power you can exercise here? The fact that you can withhold information as well as preventing it from occuring elsewhere?
C>E-mail Jordan C/O the CBT line developer. Randall Bills. His e-mail addy is on the CBT site. Simply request that your message be forwarded to Jordan.
As long as you're not deliberately rude and crude, it'll go through. These guys are NOT inaccessible.
Honestly, if I thought it would do any good, I would.
You and I both know it's way too late to have any effect. But then, I'm sure that other people petitioned for the same things that Karagin and I have been talking about, right? And what good did it do? None. So the only thing left to do now is to complain.
In reply to:
D> (To Warner)Or have you already been told by your god what the "plan" is?
C>What was the term?
Ad hominem attack?
Yes, that's right! (See? You CAN learn!)
And as you said before, "You have no ground to stand on."
I know you're a mod. I know you could have banned me before now, and I have to admit, I'm suprised that you haven't. However, at this point, I'm pretty convinced that it's merely because arguing and making your points strokes your ego, and you like that.
I can make ad-hominem attacks just like you do. So what do you say we knock it off and try to be civil, without the implications of how much the other guy is a moron for his opinion?
In reply to:
C>All we're saying is that we should welcome MW:DA players as fans of the same universe. You don't have to like them. You don't even have to respect them. Just acknowledge that they have a like that is similar to one of your own.
Stand together or hang separately (though not with quite the threatening connotations that could be attributed to it).
Quite simply, if you hate MW:DA and it's developers so much that you alienate MW:DA players, yes, MW:DA will suffer. But CBT will suffer as well. Because of a perception of elitism. And in the end, the entire BT Universe will be hurt by it.
THAT is what Peter meant when he said that we should hope that MW:DA does well. If MW:DA fails simply because it's boring and nobody wants to play it, CBT won't really be any worse off.
However, if MW:DA fails because of exceptional negative attitude from a group of CBT players evoking negative attitude in MW:DA players, then CBT will eventually be in trouble as well.
Because nobody likes playing their favorite games with people who are rude and negative all the time (there's another term, but the profanity rules....)
You make a lot of sense, with all this.
I have said before, that I feel it would have been better to let Battletech fade out and die than to suffer a satire of Battletech which is played with plastic dolls.
I WANT TO SEE IT LIVE...but not as a cheap knock-off. CBT will never die, with the dedicated fans still there. But it will be reduced to a bunch of die-hards, if Wizkids projected plans take effect.
When you flood the market with cheap plastic knockoffs...when you create rules to use those knockoffs as if they were real minis...
Bah. I've said this, you won't read it, you refuse to acknowledge simple cause and effect.
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Durango
07/12/02 10:22 PM
24.164.47.91
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In reply to:
A> Never could find a copy of "Aftermath". I'd love to see the rules set for it.
I'd love to be able to show my copy to you. It really is a rocking game, so underplayed. (But then, that's FGU for you, isn't it? *sigh*)
(Y'all excuse me while I diverge from the topic at hand for a moment...)
I've played Aftermath! on and off since 1985...it was more popular during the Cold War. It has an absolutely realistic set of rules. You gotta love a game which provides a formula for determining weapon damage based on muzzle foot pounds.
(We now return you to "On Topic")
In reply to:
A>As to resources - I'd be surprised if you couldn't find some people that have them and would let you borrow. This is a branch off of the Open Source commnity, basically applying the same mindset to RL problems as opposed to computer problems. Try it and see!
That's great news! It's nice to hear that when Wizkids finally drives CBT into the background, there'll still be those out there who will have these resources.
Very encouraging.
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novakitty
07/12/02 10:31 PM
209.242.100.230
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What was that old bit of advice...
Oh yes "You can either light a candle or curse the darkness"
Action does not insure results, but inaction insures failure.
meow
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Durango
07/13/02 12:05 AM
24.164.47.91
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In reply to:
C>Put it this way. I can only give you information based on what is said in public. However, you SHOULD be able to glean tidbits here and there as I go along, even if I don't coime out and say it.
Erum...that's not what I was talking about...but ok.
In reply to:
C>As for your "point". That WizKids wants to tank metal mini production from Iron Wind.
Ludicrous. They get very nice royalties from Iron Wind. Allowing you to play CBT with MW:DA figs is merely them giving you an option they need not have given you.
The flip side of that observation is that the more assistance they give to those who want to play with their Overpriced Cheap Plastic pieces, the less incentive there is for people to buy metal figs. Your contradiction, while obvious, has consequences. Those being, less people buying metal figs means less profits for IWM. Eventually, they'll HAVE to fold. THEN, Wizkids will be the only one making "official" Mechwarrior figs...and that means MORE profits for them.
So you see, claiming that Wizkids doesn't want to see IWM "tank" is specious, because if IWM does tank, Wizkids stands to make more than they do having them for competition.
In reply to:
D>What does it cost to make that mini? Pennies? What do they sell it for? Dollars?
C>Why not e-mail them and ask how much tooling costs for a production run of a single mini type costs. I think you'd be surprised.
And, simply because they produce a figure for...oh...for the sake of argument...costs $0.50 to tool, stock, make, paint, package, and ship, they should only sell them for $0.51?
Of course not! They're a business. If they don't make a profit, they're OUT of business.
I'm not saying that they're not entitled to a profit. (That's un-American!) I'm saying that they are making FAR too much, and selling an inferior product to do it, AND they're using a collectible scheme WHILE they're doing it. I object to the WAY they make their profit, and the way they shuff off cheap plastic on kids.
In truth, it doesn't affect me a whit...I won't be buying any anyway. But I can't stand buy idly and let this c rap just flood the market, either. I must DO something. Kids are getting ripped off, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I will intercede on their behalf, as well. (Aren't I noble? Not.)
In reply to:
C>Again, if you want to see a cost to profit ratio, ask the company. I think you'll find that they're making nowhere near 1500% profit.
I don't expect them to reveal that information to me...not with any degree of truthfulness, anyway. (That's like asking a thief if he actually robs people. Of course he does! But he's not going to TELL you.) Well, Wizkids might tell you, you're in on it. But they certainly wouldn't give ME any further ammunition to use against them!
I can't believe you suggested that! What, do I really sound that gullible? (Don't answer that.)
In reply to:
C>Yes.
Ok, I asked you not to TELL me that! 
In reply to:
C>Metal figures cost more. On an equal basis. However, the size difference of the two scales makes direct comparison impossible. Go ask Iron Wind how much it would cost to dupe a couple of the MW:DA figs in metal at the same scale.
I can guarantee the mini will cost considerably more than $8.
Perhaps on an initial run. Further duplication would drop the price considerably. (A simple concept in economics.) But I still don't see the point; why are we arguing about this again?
Lessee...you said:
"As to overpriced. Look at the prices of your metal minis again. And look at what you get in a starter and a booster for MW:DA. Then tell me about "overpriced"
Then I said:
"At least the metal figures cost more to make and that's why you pay slightly more...but then you get what you pay for."
Which you then replied how the metal figures cost more, if you make them the same size as Mage Tech figures. Which I agree, it would...but that's not the scale I was talking about. I don't play in that scale, and if Wizkids had been savvy enough to make the new minis in metal, they wouldn't have made them that scale either. (Like you said, too expensive.)
What a monstrosity it would be! A heavy one, at that. Kind of like the museum pieces. THAT would be cool. (Durango relishes the concept)
OMG...I have a metal fetish. Wow, I never realized that before now. (Hmm...I don't know about this "venting" being cathartic, but definitely is causing introspection.)
(Realizes topic is wandering)
ANYWAY...you say that your Starter pack is a cheap way to start an army, I say that the metal figs can be just as cheap, if not cheaper. Not to mention they are of higher quality.
In reply to:
C>If the level of detail can be duplicated at all. There are some things you can do in plastic that cannot be done in spin-cast metal.
You mean superfluous detail, like Dragon's Head claws? Other useless "neato" parts which are going to fall off and get lost, anyway?
In reply to:
C>As for your "value" argument.
Value is a subjective benchmark.
What may hold value for you, may be crap to someone else. And vice versa.
If value were so subjective, as to be useless as a metric, then a great deal of things would simply not sell...and some things would sell no matter what. I think you're trying to discount it's importance simply because it's a major chunk of my point. So...stop that.
In reply to:
C>You're telling me that YOU THINK I'm wrong.
C>Yes. In some cases. In other cases, where your facts are messed up, I'm flat out telling you "You're wrong." There's no "I think" about it.
And yet, I'm still not wrong. You must not be doing something right. Perhaps you need to spin reality a little more? (That seems to be the MO for Wizkids...)
In reply to:
C>CBT will continue...Wizkids doesn't want to poison IWM & CBT...
D>Funny, that's not the way it seems, especially when you add up the things which have been happening.
C>Your perceptions are not what we're discussing here. We're discussing ACTUALITY.
I covered this above.
In reply to:
D>...you can use Mage Tech Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in Battletech, but not vice versa?
Correct. Because of the integral nature of the mini to MW:DA, importing minis from CBT would be detrimental.
Whereas minis in CBT are not even necessary. They're merely a luxury. You can make do with proxies, cardboard counters, etc. CBT isn't dependent on integrity of the model base the way MW:DA is.
...plans are in the works to make rules so that you won't need to buy any resources from FanPro to play Battletech with your Mage Tech figures.
Of course. Again, since minis are not integral to CBT, the MW:DA figs are little more than proxies. Their scale can be adjusted for in CBT minis rules and actual mechsheet representations can be created for them using CBT construction rules.
OK, you responded to what I typed, but you didn't bother to stop and take in the implications. If you stop, and actually consider them together, you'll see what I was on about. Those two together spell disaster for real Battletech, done with metal minis.
In reply to:
D>There are others on this board who would seem to agree with you.
C>And there are those who would agree with you.
(Does double-take) Ah, thanks. Is it just me or was that a somewhat formulaic response?
In reply to:
D> But to me, if you're playing Battletech with dollies, then you're not really playing Battletech.
Thanks for damning all those who collect BT-related materials simply because they're BT-related.
Sorry, but like yourself, I call 'em like I see 'em. If you play with plastic figurines that look like dolls, you ARE playing with dolls. I say that about any dolls, 'Mecha or not. I have a bud who collects "Death angel" (Amorla-re-on, or something like that) action figures, and I give him a hard time about his dolls, too. He takes it in stride.
Dolls are dolls, dude.
In reply to:
D>Remove support from Mage Tech and give it to FanPro! Vote against the atrocity with your WALLET.
C>And this is, again, what I've been saying all along. If you don't like it, DON'T BUY IT!
Just stop ragging on those people who WOULD buy it. Because it hurts you and CBT just as much as it hurts the person and game you're ragging on.
Ok, the advice to "vote with your wallet" was to those who don't have enough motivation to do anything more than just vote with your wallets. To those of you who feel that's not enough, I encourage you to talk to your local congressmen & representatives, and explain that Wizkids Collectible scheme is little more than legalized gambling for kids. They will answer, they answered me. Also, if you get the chance, explain to the fund providers (PARENTS) what a rip-off this game is. With your help, we'll snuff this thing out before it gets going.
But hey, amigo, I'm glad we can agree about the simpler course of action.
In reply to:
D>How can you dispute my arguments when you haven't even addressed my point?
C>I have. You simply fail to allow yourself to accept my point of view.
Really? Perhaps then, you can prove that you have, by paraphrasing my point.
In reply to:
D>Yes, yes, sarcasm and ad-hominem attacks.
C>And you have zero room to make such accusations.
Correct, good sir! Are we ready to knock it off? Or should we continue the sniping?
In reply to:
D>I want to hear you admit that making pseudo-rules for Mage Tech figures is going to be bad for FanPro. Admit it.
C>Get ready for a long wait. I have said, nor will I say any such thing.
(Settles in for a long wait.) It's ok, I have the time. Because you won't say it now doesn't mean that you won't admit it after FanPro stops making real Battletech materials, or after IWM folds. And you will. Because they will.
In reply to:
D>But they are not more "detailed". Detail is in the lines of a mini, in the intricate carvings of a piece of metal, which show things like access hatches and weapon ports.
C>Thank you for your self-serving definition. Unfortunately, detail means more than just lines carved into the exterior of a piece.
Detail: a small part; item (Webster's dictionary, closest definition to what we're talking about)
Only by the most literal definition of "detail" can you be right. I prefer the more figurative (no pun intended, though the word does seem appropriate) definition. In any case, I'm still right, despite your insulting use of the expression "self-serving".
In reply to:
D>You can reproduce the ugly Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in metal, in the correct scale for about the same price as any other real Battletech mini.
C>The problem is, they can't be used for MW:DA then. And if you think that you can duplicate all those minis at the same price point, be my guest. Again, I recommend you talk with Iron Wind before making these assertions.
It's academic really. I merely said that to refute your claim that you couldn't. The fact that you practically concede the point is good enough for me.
In reply to:
D>Kind of useless information
C>There's no such thing as useless information.
Especially when it's marketing hype, eh?
In reply to:
D>Admit it. We're two of a kind, on opposite sides of a coin.
C>Don't ever deign to compare yourself to me. You know nothing about me. Merely a few short lines on one individual point of interest.
Trust me, if I were like you, you'd have been banned from here as well. Instead of me taking the time and effort to try to discuss things with you.
Oooh! He brings up THE BAN! I think I struck a nerve, there, eh? Yeah, we share traits. You and I both love to be right, and to argue until dawn. Still think we're dissimilar?
In reply to:
D> No problem. It helped me to prove my point.
C>Talk about twisted logic. Telling someone "I don't know what I'm talking about." means you win the argument? O-kaaaay!
Well, lessee...you said:
"Part of the reason for [the jump in the story line] was, and is, that the current story line had more or less written itself into a corner. Novels were beginning to fall, more or less, into the same general outline as the story line progressed. And while many people would willingly pay big bucks to see Victor Davion come, see, and conquer until the end of time, it was getting old. Both from a readership standpoint, and from the standpoint of the authors."
And I added,
"Plus, Mike was feeling a little put out that he wasn't getting enough money. Not to mention that the previous publishers were cramping his style by limiting the number of pages per novel. He said so himself, in his letter to the masses..."don't diss me, there's money to be made here"..."just go sell your cheeseburger heartattacks and buy this new game [implied "you livin'-in-your-parent's-basement, workin-at-the-Burgershack-geeks, I make more money than you'll ever SEE in your lifetimes, so just shutup, losers"]"
To which you replied:
"And I'd like to know exactly how much experience you've had working in the business as an author. It'd make your arguments on this much stronger than they are."
And I said back:
"I don't have to have any experience, everything I said can be gleaned from reading Mike's own words. I rest on HIS case."
And you responded:
"Thanks for at least admitting this."
Meaning, "Thanks for admitting that you don't have to have any experience, and that everything you printed came from Mike's own words."
And I responded, "No problem. It helped me to make my case, and thanks for being so civil about loosing this particular point." I never said I don't know what I'm talking about, I said I didn't have to, since Mike already made my case for me. And you thanked me for it.
PAY ATTENTION.
In reply to:
D>And then I figuratively shoved your face in the mud by pointing out that in fact, there WAS something from stopping me from playing metal figures in a Wizkids game
C>No you didn't. You made an inference that it did. Inference is not the same as fact. Nice try though.
Oh, stop. Semantics. You lost that point. Just be a man about having mud all over your face.
In reply to:
D>...it's a different game because they designed it that way. They could have just as easily made it in the correct scale. (Blam...pieces of silly reason fall to the ground)
C>You should stop dropping reason that way. It's not nice. They didn't make iit the same scale to:
A: Differentiate the game.
B: Allow them to add more detail their their mechs
C: Control the distribution of the game, and thus maintain control over production.
Ah, finally you come up with some reasonable logic. That's a nice change, by the way, I applaud you.
But I'm still right. They COULD have made it the correct scale. (Unless you'd like to change the laws of physics, and make it physically impossible for them to have done that, I'm still right.)
In reply to:
D>...there's just as much detail in metal as in plastic...more in some instances (Blam! more silly reason pieces fall)
C>I never said there couldn't be. However, very few mechs have the level of detail given to them that most of the MW:DA pieces have.
Let's see what you said: "Maybe because they wanted to up the scale to provide more details in the minis than was possible at the CBT scale."
Hmm...sure sounds like you were implying that there couldn't be. (That word "possible" kind of makes it sound that way.) But, I'll let you have this one. Other people can read and decide for themselves. If ANYONE is still reading this.
In reply to:
D>...if they made them all with attached bases, how could you confuse them with the metal ones? (Blam!)
C>And how long would that have lasted until somebody forged them.
And this couldn't or isn't going to happen anyway? At any rate we were talking about during production...not aftermarket. Just concede the point.
In reply to:
D>If FanPro wasn't producing royalties for Jordan, they'd be out of business...capise, pisano?
You apparently haven't got a clue who FanPro is. They're the maker of one of the largest RPG games in Germany. Even if they lost their CBT and SR licenses tomorrow, they'd still be in business the day after (and the year after, etc).
Again. Big blunders like this on your part are because you simply don't take the time to check your facts before making ludicrous statements.
Of course, you knew what I meant, but you insist on attempting to sharpshoot me merely to make your point. But just incase you weren't actually aware of what you meant, I meant "out of the business of making CBT materials". Sheesh. If it weren't for semantics, you'd have no case at all!
In reply to:
C>As to the rest of your post. Let's just use the term "circular arguments". I won't even sully the term "logic".
You're essentially saying: "I want it this way because they could have made it this way, because they should have made it this way, because I want it this way."
Ho ho, so you CAN'T answer my questions, and this is the way you dodge having to!
For those of you who don't want to backtrack I answered Chas' questions, and asked him to answer mine. I also asked him to answer Karagins questions, and I outright predicted that he would attempt to dodge them.
And look at this, he summarily dismisses them and refuses to answer them. WHAT A SUPRISE!
Massive loss of points, Chas! You are really suffering here!
In reply to:
C>That's not something you can argue. Because there's no sense in it. It all boils down to "You didn't get what you wanted.
It is true, I didn't get what I wanted. But that doesn't mean there's nothing I can do about it.
In reply to:
C>Thanks for your attempts at conversation. Don't be too disappointed if I don't address you any further.
Hah! Running away when I point out that you can't answer my questions? Suffering HORRIBLY! COLOSSAL loss of integrity points!
In reply to:
C>I think I've had my fill of banging my head off a brick wall.
I imagine that being unable to assail my points would do that to you. But it's ok. I dismiss you. Begone. Run back to your Wizkids Mouthpiece website.
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Chas
07/13/02 01:13 AM
66.187.6.93
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That's Durango's main problem. He enjoys cursing the darkness too much to be bothered to strike a match.
He'd rather argue around a point (basically repeating himself the entire way and avoiding straight answers). Then, when people throw their hands up in disgust at the sheer nugacity of it, he throws up his hands and proclaims "victory".
Ah well. Every group has a few like him.
It's usually best just to humor them. Eventually they'll just go away.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Acolyte
07/13/02 01:54 AM
142.179.27.248
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How do you figure? Did they change their mind and actually let you see what you're buying before you buy it?
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Khan_Robinette
07/13/02 08:19 AM
216.24.109.78
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 Yeah Iguess some people just need a little ego boost now and then.
I may as well admit that my wife has convinced me to try MW:DA at least for her sake and the sake of th eother girls in the group who think Battletech has too many equations.
HOWEVER
I am not stopping the old game. Like I told her, once or twice, but she buys the minis I figure that was fair...I bough all of the minis that she uses for Battletech.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Chas
07/13/02 12:33 PM
66.187.6.89
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In the secondary market, you're going to have roughly 4 grades of minis.
Green - 1 chevron
Veteran - 2 chevrons
Elite - 3 chevrons
Unique - Named
You'll also have varying levels of common and uncommon in each. Pretty much every piece should be available in more than one ranking.
In this case, if you're just interested in the mini type and using it for CBT or saving it for display (say a Spider), then you can collect one of the more common minis, in the secondary market, and not have to worry about paying umpty-bajillion dollars for some super-rare named figure.
If you're playing MW:DA, and you want more powerful figures, then you're going to have to pay whatever the market's going rate is for such minis.
Also, at the seminar, they were asked about unit packs. With all the particular pieces from a given faction/unit. It didn't go over well for MK, but BT's different dynamic (and the fact that it was suggested they be released at the same time the boosters are released) will make it easier to collect specific units without resorting to the secondary market.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Durango
07/13/02 01:45 PM
24.164.47.91
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In reply to:
W> (turns other cheek, ad nauseum)
D> Man, that gets old fast.
W>That you would continue to lash out at me attack me at every opportunity. Even after I made my last statement to you on the incident you are using to fuel your hate and desire to make life miserable for me. Yes its getting old.
Welp. I never knew you before the day you wrote me that nasty note. Or one of your other personalities did, the Authoritative personality. Besides, you KNEW your board was not the only board! How could you not realize that I would take my case elsewhere? Did you think you could (or order someone else to) press that little BAN button and I'd simply dissapear from reality?
What did you expect? Honestly, Warner, what did you expect? I'm not one of your Privates/Sailors/Airmen, I'm not one of your kids and I'm not subject to YOUR RULE, except in your little domain...which I'm not in any more.
In reply to:
D>Interesting...is this the same e-mail addy your alter-identity uses?
W>Yes it is. There is no altered identity. Never has been. You've just seen my authoritative side because of the incident. But what you are doing here far exceeds anything I've seen in a long while. And this, these actions you've taken against me is what you call... "Christ like?"
Ok, I'm here, "getting real" with you. I didn't even KNOW you before you flamed me. Or any of your...whatever, alternate personnas. Maybe you're not really a schizophrenic, or a spit personality. But when you lash me out of one side of your mouth and then come out all high & mighty from the other (and blame ME that YOU had your DAUGHTER read that flame I wrote back), you sure sound like there's more than one person in there...or using your account.
I've counted THREE so far: Authoritative Warner, Pious Warner, and Adolescent Warner (the one who acted like Death Coyote). This one I'm dealing with right now sounds like a bit of Pious and Authoritative Warner, is this the real you?
As far as my actions against you...yes, I have been persistent. I admit it. But I don't feel particularly guilty about it, and you're right about another item, they are certainly NOT "Christ like". I will pay for that, but not to you. I did apologise to your family and specifically your daughter, as you requested...even though it wasn't ME who forced her to read that letter. Don't bring my relationship with God into it, just because you wear yours on your sleeve, just below that other "badge of authority" you're so fond of showing off (the spot where the stripes were on your shoulder).
Dude, I don't know you. All I see is what you demonstrate, and the hypocracy you preach. You condemn me for my ad-hominem attacks, and you spare Chas...why? You don't see the double standard?
If you say, "Well, David, you started it first", then I guess the adolescent Warner is the one who maintains control. (And besides, my name is DAVE.)
In reply to:
D>Prove it. Let me back on to CBT.
Don't have to. "We will know them by their fruits." You can quote all the scripture you want Dave, it still doesn't remove the fact that the only one here that has been posting ugly and hateful remarks has not me when it concerns the both of us.
Hence... I turn my cheek...and again and again and again...
No, you don't have to prove anything. All you have to do is play the role of the oppressed, the accused, the abused and maligned, and I play right into your hands by responding to your letter.
But your actions belie your words, if you really were the forgiving type, you'd find a way to get me back on to CBT. Especially if I "promised to behave"...except, I'm not really interested in being there any more, I can't deal with the level of oppression, accusation, abuse and malignment from the MODS.
Anyone who says anything about Wizkids (or JW) NOT good, not approbate, insufficiently reverent, gets banned. Well, that's NOT my opinion. And so I was squeltched. I already showed the entire conversation, Warner...even you admit that you had some culpability in this scenario. Just because I talked about JW's CUPIDITY...because I said he was in it for the money, period...I was banned. And that's censorship, Warner. And you know it.
In reply to:
W>I will say this one more time in hopes that you will see and understand before everyone else...(including Scott who has made some similar thoughts: (put it to email Scott if you want to know).):
That I came down on you for your conduct and treatment of a member of the message board, an administrator and another human being that was trying to be helpful to you. Yet you saw it as an attack much like you are assuming that Chas is doing to you, when he isn't. He is showing you great patience. I didn't show you patience because I have zero tolerance for people attacking others in the manner you did. You may not have seen that, but a great many did and my email box filled up because of it. Maybe I should have taken it to a PM but I didn't. That's my mistake and I was wrong for that. I can accept my mistakes and own up to them. I have never shied from that and never will.
Ok, I tried to examine your links, I got:
We cannot proceed.
We encountered a problem. The reason reported was:
Access Denied.
...which is funny, way to re-inforce the fact that you banned me. Ha, ha. But I ain't smilin' and I'm not laughing.
Listen. When you ban someone for expressing an OPINION, you are excercising CENSORSHIP. I did not INSULT JW. I did not INSULT Peter Smith. The WORST you can accuse me of is being confrontational, and as for your charge of Trolling, I didn't start new threads, I replied to existing ones, with my opinions. (Expressed factually, admittedly, but MY OPINIONS.) Did you see Chas insulting people, being aggressive and clarifying that it was merely his "opinion"? But you ignored him and went after Karagin and me!
In reply to:
W>I believe that if you put aside all the animosity and anger and truly look at my message you’ll understand that. And to show you that I just didn’t single you out, I did the same thing with a good friend of mine, Erich. My dressing down for his conduct. And you can read his reply to what I said here. Erich understood what I was saying and my intent.
Ok, wait. You say you don't act hypocritical? You say you have "zero tolerance", but you look the other way when Chas does it? Then you say you treat all people fairly, even your "friends"?
Dude, I don't believe you! But you don't have to PROVE ANYTHING, do you? I bet Erich, whoever he is, simply did not have the balls to stand up to you! Or, he *IS* a good friend and doesn't want to TELL you how much of a mini-despot you act like, and simply backed down. Ask him sometime.
I think if you TRULY examine yourself, you will see EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I don't expect you to, but...try.
In reply to:
W>Dave you want to hate and make known that you hate MechWarrior Darkage and let the world know it. Have at it. I’ll stand behind you and support your right to do so. I spent almost 15 years of my life defending this country so you could have that right. What I will not defend or stand is some using their opinion and voice to cause pain for someone just because they have that opinion. As I said to you, ‘ I will not put up with this from anyone on this message board JUST BECAUSE ITS YOUR OPINION. Because your opinion does not mean you can speak to people in the manner as you just did.’ I have said to many others. I hold that standard to myself. And when I screw up and say something I shouldn’t I am wrong.
IF that were true. IF it were true, that I spoke WRONGLY to Peter Smith, then why did I not get a warning, FROM HIM, instead of summarily banned? I know why, it's because I am anti-Wizkids. You say you'll defend that right, but your ACTIONS speak louder than your words. I was BANNED. That's the bottom line, isn't it Warner?
You won't put up with anyone's opinion, but you turn a blind eye to Chas when he uses that excuse...not only that, you condemn Karagin and I while condoning him!
How can you say that's not hypocritical?
In reply to:
W> I believe I have tried my best to be restrained in the face of what you have been doing since your letters to me. Had I not, well…the old timers here on Sarna know what I am capable of being if I did. And I don’t plan on ever allowing that to happen.
Ok, any old-timers want to tell me what he's capable of? Since he won't display it any more?
In reply to:
W>(Let me tell you, Chas has not even let go yet. He hasn't come even close. When he goes off neither you nor I or anyone else on this board stands a chance against his keen and dangerous tongue.)
Yes, I know he hasn't been expending any, as I seem to just brush off most of what he says, effortlessly. I'm not even impressed yet. But I guess I don't have to worry about that, as he has already run away from three direct questions...I guess I'm LUCKY that he didn't use his "keen and dangerous tongue" on me, eh?
But then, my "conspiracy theory" is that you both were told not to let any Anti-Mage Tech messages go on for too long...while at the same time, being told to praise it as much as possible. Which I imagine galls him, that he has to give up on the thread or risk anti-Mage Tech rhetoric.
By the way, who is Scott?
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Warner_Doles
07/13/02 03:36 PM
206.27.48.9
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Dave... You win. You want to spread vicious lies about me, have at it. One day though, we will meet and I will explain to you how wrong you are and when I am done you will see that.
You want to use this message board for your own little ground to pollute with the likes of Eric Johson and the others that think like you do, have at it.
Dave my opinion about you is up on my site have a look if you please so you know what I truly think about you. Since I would never waste my friends bandwidth for that here anyway. Go here and read it for yourself.
I have tried to make amends but I see that you, one who claims to be a Brother in Christ, does not have the ability to forgive. Since you want to use scripture to make me look bad and state your case, I offer to Romans 12: 9 - 21 to read. If that does not help you, then you must read Galatians 5: 25 - 26 and if that doesn't give you a wake up call, then read 1 John 2: 11 - 24.
I tried to make amends. I wanted to make amends. Yet you spit in my face. So I'll turn this over to the Lord and let him deal with you. There is nothing there for me to worry about, as I will dust off my feet and walk away from you secure in the knowledge that my heart is right and clear. I have done as instructed by Christ. Now you have to answer for it to the your Lord.
One last thing... If you have a problem with Chas you need to take it up with an Administrator... that is Nic. But since he has already read through most of this iirc he has had no problem with Chas. Oh and while you are attacking Chas with your wit and hate, if Chas got tried of all of this and you, he could simply pull the plug and all of this would simply go away. He has that kind of power because the server is HIS domain.
Good by Dave. I hope that one day you will see that you allowed hate to rule your heart. Anything else you want to say to me send me an email please. I don't want to waste Nic's bandwidth with the kind of things YOU have been spewing out. I wonder what your children will think about your conduct here.. I bet they would be proud!
God Bless you Dave Staples I certainly hope that he will open your eyes. Good Bye.
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Acolyte
07/13/02 04:10 PM
142.179.27.248
|
Secondary market huh? In other words: no I will not be able to see what I'm buying. I have to let someone else take the risk and, if they don't want it, buy it from them.
I do like the unit pack idea. How much would the Kell Hounds cost?
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Greyslayer
07/13/02 07:53 PM
63.12.141.171
|
'By the way, who is Scott?'
That would be me, probably.
I have suggested to you in private and public that you should get over it. They only seem to want 'warm and fuzzies' over there, and if that is the case then why continue to bang your head against the wall?
Warner does know where I stand on MW:DA (or at least I think he does), he should also know that I refuse to post or even visit CBT. Also at this time he should also know that I still follow (or at least try to follow one of HIS rules .... Do not bring things that happen on other boards HERE).
Until the past week or so we hadn't had a serious flame war in awhile. It didn't stop us from 'discussing battletech' with opposing viewpoints it just lacked the certain elements that have caused flame wars in the past.
Get over it, bury it or just plain swallow your pride and move on. Things should improve once you have done this.
Greyslayer ... aka Scott
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PeterSmith
07/13/02 11:31 PM
64.108.202.124
|
"I have to let someone else take the risk and, if they don't want it, buy it from them."
Something like that.
If you ever have gone into a game shop, or visited a convention, and seen (for example) Magic cards being sold individually, that's an example of the secondary market. I've seen the same thing with Mage Knight figures at every convention I've been to, ever since its introduction.
"I do like the unit pack idea. How much would the Kell Hounds cost?"
I like the idea too. But I think they're still kicking the idea around, have not set a price yet.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Chas
07/14/02 12:17 AM
66.187.6.89
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And, on that cheerful note 
Let's just close the thread.
It's already gone on WAAAY longer than it probably should have.
It's already gone to 250+ posts? I think the subject of my little trifle of a report is pretty much hashed-over to death.
Thanks for the interest guys.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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