Editing Policy Talk:Images

__TOC__

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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived discussion of the included proposal. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>''
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==Policy creation==
=== Gallery test ===
Generally there should only be one image of the unit in the infobox.

If there are more images you'd like to add to the page feel free to do so, but remember that it's easy to overload the page. For this reason please try to put the images below the text content of the page. 

If there are more than four images ''(It seemed like a nice number)'', the images are very large, or you just want the page to look nice, please consider adding a "Gallery" section to the page. This will do a few things:
# Present the images in a nice, consistent way.
# Keep the images and text separate so Editors can find what they're looking for.
# Add a link to the Table of Contents so everyone can see your images easily.

To create a Gallery, all you need to do is edit your page and include this code:
<pre>
====Gallery====
<gallery>
File:IMAGEFILENAME|Image caption text
File:IMAGEFILENAME|Image caption text.
</gallery>
</pre>

The ''[[Warhammer]]'' page uses this method to bring the images together. Here's the code:

<pre>
====Gallery====
<gallery>
File:WarhammerInternalSchematics.jpg|The internal schematics of a ''Warhammer''. Note the pilot on the right.
File:Warhammer.jpg|''Warhammer'' from the cover of the original box set.
</gallery>
</pre>

And here's what it looks like:
====Gallery====
<gallery>
File:WarhammerInternalSchematics.jpg|The internal schematics of a ''Warhammer''. Note the pilot on the right.
File:Warhammer.jpg|''Warhammer'' from the cover of the original box set.
</gallery>
-------
===Discussion===
'''This is just a sample to kick off a discussion.''' It isn't actual policy yet, even though that word appears in the header. (I did this so [[User:Revanche]] could take a break from writing policies for a while.)

Please feel free to add comments to this page, but please do so ABOVE the "gallery test" heading. Thanks!

====To Be Discussed====
# What kind of images are allowed?
# Attribution of images?
# Copyright? (Should fit within [[BattleTechWiki:Copyrights]] policy)

==== Comments====
Okay, first off, I think [[w:Image_use_policy|Wikipedia's image use policy]] is a must read for research purposes. A number of their policies have to do with copyright issues, which are different for us. In the interest of not reinventing the wheel, I think we should use:
*Always specify on the description page where the image came from (the source) and information on how this could be verified.
*Use a clear, detailed title. Note that if any image with the same title has already been uploaded, it will be replaced with your new one.
*Crop the image to highlight the relevant subject.
*The images in the gallery collectively must have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject. Images in a gallery should be suitably captioned to explain their relevance both to the article subject and to the theme of the gallery, and the gallery should be appropriately titled (unless the theme of the gallery is clear from the context of the article). Images in a gallery should be carefully selected, avoiding similar or repetitive images, unless a point of contrast or comparison is being made. Just as we seek to ensure that the prose of an article is clear, precise and engaging, galleries should be similarly well-crafted.
*However, Wikipedia is not an image repository. A gallery is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article, and a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the above paragraph
*Note that it is not recommended to use animated GIFs to display multiple photos. The method is not suitable for printing and also is not user friendly (users cannot save individual images and have to wait before being able to view images while other images cycle round).
*Articles may get ugly and difficult to read if there are too many images crammed onto a page with relatively little text. They may even overlap. For this reason, it is often a good idea to temporarily remove the least-important image from an article and queue it up on the article's talk page. Once there is enough text to support the image, any contributor is free to shift the image back into the article. If a contributor believes such a queued image to be essential to the article, despite the lack of text, he or she may decide to put it back in. However, he or she should not simply revert the article to its previous state, but make an attempt to re-size the images or create some sort of gallery section in order to deal with the original problem.
--[[User:Scaletail|Scaletail]] 00:25, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:I agree with all those points, particularly #1 (Always specify on the description page where the image came from and how that can be verified.) and #5 (<s>Wikipedia</s> BattleTechWiki is not an image repository).
:As for pages becoming too ugly and difficult to read, that's why I suggested
:#That there be only one image in the infobox.
:#That we encourage the use of a '''gallery''' tag to hold all the images. This is particularly important with 'Mechs that have a lot of variants, like the ''[[Warhammer]]'' and ''[[Archer]]''.
:Originally I said to use a '''gallery''' only if you had 4+ images, or wanted to make it look nice, but if we keep the pages consistent that would be better.--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 16:03, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

==== Guidelines, Take Two ====
# Images should be relevant to the article and in some way contribute to understanding the article.
# [[BTW]] is not an image repository. Just as you write high quality article text, include high-quality images. (You can put links to the images on the article's discussion page until you've got a good version or you want feedback.)
# When appropriate, images should be cropped to show only the relevant portions. (Don't include a full ''[[Warhammer]]'' image if you're only discussing the [[SRM-6]].)
# Images must have a relevant and descriptive name. 
##Image names like '''mech.jpg''' or '''bookcover.jpg''' are not useful.
##If you upload an image that shares the same name as an image already in the wiki, the new image will replace the second.
# The image's description page should list the source of the image. (That's why the file upload page has that big textbox labeled '''Summary'''. {{emoticon|;)}})
# Images in an article should have a descriptive caption, unless they're in an infobox.
# "Infobox pages" (used by combat units, combat commands, and weapons among others) should only have one image in the infobox. All other images on these pages should be contained in a gallery.
## Avoid using repetitious images in the gallery unless you're comparing differences.
## Images in a gallery should '''always''' have a descriptive caption.
# Images on pages without an infobox should appear next to or near the topic they're discussing. For example, the [[Colonel]] page shows the rank insignia for each faction is shown near the header. Maps in the [[Fourth Succession War]] article would be included in the relevant section for each front or wave.

I'm going to expand these soon, but I wanted to get my thoughts down before they run away.
I used the numbered list to make it easier for editors to comment. (Personally I find it easier to say "I don't agree with rule 7.1" than "I don't agree with the tenth bullet item." or whatever.)
--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 14:09, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
:Can you please explain "...as well as how that source can be verified"? How would that be different than providing the source & page? --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 18:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
::I can best explain it by saying "Oops!" Originally it was in a different order and I guess I didn't update it completely. Removed offending fragment.--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 19:10, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

==== Copyright Tags====
Wikipedia has a lot of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags image copyright tags] that automatically add the license of the image to the upload. Does anyone know if BTW has these (or something similar)?--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 16:03, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:We don't, mostly because it's not necessary. Every BT image is owned by Topps, under license to CGL. There's only a smattering of images that don't fall under that. --[[User:Scaletail|Scaletail]] 00:49, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

==== Nutshell content ====
{{nutshell|<br>1. All images '''must''' adhere to the BTW [[BattleTechWiki:Copyrights|Copyright Policy]].<br>2. Images should explain how they meet the [[BattleTechWiki:Copyrights|Copyright Policy]] on their description page. <br>3. Images should have a source or attribution that can be verified listed on the description page.<br>4. Images should be relevant to the article.}}
Any changes I should make?--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 19:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:In order for 1 & 2 to work, we would need to amend the copyright policy. Images owned by Topps, Inc. don't fall under GFDL. I agree with 3 & 4.--[[User:Scaletail|Scaletail]] 00:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
::OK. So how about this:
{{nutshell|<br>1. Images should be relevant to the article.<br>2. Images should have a source or attribution that can be verified listed on their description page.<br>3. There should be only one image in the Infobox, other images should appear in a gallery.<br>4. Images in a gallery should have a descriptive caption.}}
::--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 13:29, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Yes, I like these.--[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 13:46, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
::::I like it. --[[User:Scaletail|Scaletail]] 15:48, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

==== Status ====

Mbear, it appears that the policy discussion is winding down. If you agree, I'll write up a consensus review for the decision phase, as the final step before the policy is written. --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 11:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
:Sounds good.--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 12:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

====Possible Image Policy Page====
Based on the feedback I've received, I put together the following sample showing what would appear on the Policy:Images page.--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 14:15, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
-------
{{nutshell|<br>1. Images should be relevant to the article.<br>2. Images should have a source or attribution that can be verified listed on their description page.<br>3. There should be only one image in the Infobox, other images should appear in a gallery.<br>4. Images in a gallery should have a descriptive caption.}}
===Guidelines===
# Images should be relevant to the article and in some way contribute to understanding the article.
# [[BTW]] is not an image repository. Just as you write high quality article text, include high-quality images. (You can put links to the images on the article's discussion page until you've got a good version or you want feedback.)
# When appropriate, images should be cropped to show only the relevant portions. (Don't include a full ''[[Warhammer]]'' image if you're only discussing the [[SRM-6]].)
# Images must have a relevant and descriptive name. 
##Image names like '''mech.jpg''' or '''bookcover.jpg''' are not useful. Image names like '''CloudCobra-StarCommanderInsignia.png''' and '''TRO3075-CoverImage.jpg''' are useful.
##If you upload an image that shares the same name as an image already in the wiki, the new image will replace the older one.
# The image's description page should list the source of the image. (That's why the file upload page has that big textbox labeled '''Summary'''. {{emoticon|;)}})
# Images in an article should have a descriptive caption, unless they're in an infobox.
# "Infobox pages" (used by combat units, combat commands, and weapons among others) should only have one image in the infobox. All other images on these pages should be contained in a gallery.
## Avoid using repetitious images in the gallery unless you're comparing differences.
## Images in a gallery should '''always''' have a descriptive caption.
# Images on pages without an infobox should appear next to or near the topic they're discussing. For example, the [[Colonel]] page shows the rank insignia for each faction is shown near the header. Maps in the [[Fourth Succession War]] article would be included in the relevant section for each front or wave.

===Galleries===
For pages with an infobox and a lot of images please consider adding a "Gallery" section to the page. This will do a few things:
# Present the images in a nice, consistent way.
# Keep the images and text separate so Editors can find what they're looking for.
# Add a link to the Table of Contents so everyone can see your images easily.

Using a gallery is particularly useful on pages where the unit has many variants and images of them, like the ''Warhammer'' page.

To create a Gallery, all you need to do is edit your page and include this code:
<pre>
====Gallery====
<gallery>
File:IMAGEFILENAME|Image caption text
File:IMAGEFILENAME|Image caption text.
</gallery>
</pre>

The ''[[Warhammer]]'' page uses this method to bring the images together. Here's the code:

<pre>
====Gallery====
<gallery>
File:WarhammerInternalSchematics.jpg|The internal schematics of a ''Warhammer''. Note the pilot on the right.
File:Warhammer.jpg|''Warhammer'' from the cover of the original box set.
</gallery>
</pre>

And here's what it looks like:
====Gallery====
<gallery>
File:WarhammerInternalSchematics.jpg|The internal schematics of a ''Warhammer''. Note the pilot on the right.
File:Warhammer.jpg|''Warhammer'' from the cover of the original box set.
</gallery>


===Consensus Review===
Consensus of this emerging policy has led to the following conclusions:
#Only one image is to be used per infobox.
#If more than 4 thumbnail images (not counting one displayed in the infobox) are to be included, if the article is too small to allow an easy fit of additional images or if the images are over-sized, a gallery of images will be inserted following the primary text of the article (but before the references section). [The demo code be included in the policy.]
#All images uploaded to BTW are required to have the source (with page number) included in the '''Summary''' field of the "Upload file" page.
#All uploaded images are to be titled with a name specific and clear to the image depicted. Consideration should be given to previous images uploaded that bear the same name (as they will be written over, if the name is not varied).
#The image to be uploaded should be cropped to highlight the relevant subject.
#The images in the gallery collectively must have encyclopedic value, relevant to the subject and add to the reader's understanding of the subject. Images in a gallery should be carefully selected, avoiding similar or repetitive images, unless a point of contrast or comparison is being made. 
#All gallery or thumbnail images (outside of the infobox) must include a caption relevant to the subject.
#It is not recommended to use animated GIFs to display multiple photos.
#If too many images are present in relation to the text (including those within a gallery), the least-relevant images may be 'stored' on the article's talk page, until that time the article has been suitably lengthened to accomodate more images.
#BattleTechWiki is not an image repository. Each uploaded image shall be used within at least one article (or its talk page).
#Thumbnail images (those outside a gallery) shall be placed closest to the relevant information within the text of the article. [Demo code will be provided to create thumbnails in the policy.]

====Consensus Support/Non-Support====
Please state either your '''support''' or '''non-support''' for this policy, per the listed "Consensus Review" points:
* '''Support''': definitely a worthy policy; I also support a general Files policy that would incorporate many of these same points. Good work, Mbear. --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 14:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
* '''Support''': seems fine to me. --[[User:Neufeld|Neufeld]] 19:18, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
* '''Support''':But I'm biased.--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 19:29, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
* '''Support''': I think it's good. --[[User:Scaletail|Scaletail]] 01:07, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

'''Consensus Summary:''' Proposal passes. Closed on 06 April 2010 
|-
| style="text-align:center;" | ''The above is an archived discussion of the included proposal. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>''
|}


==Thumbnails==
Speaking only for myself, I really hate having the thumbnail images that just float around part of the article. Drives me absolutely insane.--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 11:54, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
:I can live with that (your insanity). Personally, when well-done, I do like them. That's why I move some to better fit next to the item they visualize. And don't think I didn't notice that you brought this up minutes (minutes!) before I was announcing the new policy. --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 12:00, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
::Yeah, I figured you were OK with me going nuts. I tried to remove the floating thumbnails by encouraging the use of a gallery, but oh well.--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 14:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
:::"If it weren't for those meddling kids..." Seriously, though, I'm gonna go live with the policy here shortly and if we had wanted (which this ''we'' doesn't) to cut out thumbnails, we should have said just that. But, with so many Wikipedians here, I think you'll find people who favor thumbnails as informative visuals. The gallerys seem like a good place for "Oh, by the way, here are some more images of a ''Warhammer''". --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 15:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Those are all good points. Like the Capellans say, "You can't win them all." {{emoticon|:)}}--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 15:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::Are you sure they say 'all' in that phrase?--[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 17:57, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

==Providing sources==
I don't know if this belongs to this policy or not (please discuss), but we obviously need to stress it more that pictures need to have their source stated upon uploading (preferably in the comments section on the file page). This appears not to be the case for a great many pictures uploaded so far, and citing sources is very important for the credibility of this wiki - all the more considering that fan art is positively allowed here, so me must be extra cautious to provide full references. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] 17:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
:Nutshell #2 & Guideline #5 state just that. Maybe we need a user warning template aimed at the user who has uploaded images past the policy's unveiling. I'm loathe to hit ''every'' image uploaded in the last 3.5 years with a tag, especially as they wouldn't be seen as easily as {{tl|cn}} is in an article.--[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 18:01, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
::Should teach me to read before I write - plainly overlooked this at first glance. Well, as it turns out the entire image gallery was apparently ripped from an unsourced site that took its pics from various computer games (= apocrypha) and all over the internet otherwise (= default to Fanon). Putting aside the question whether or not having pretty pictures for no particular reason (and bar any BT-related information or context) is in itself desirable on BTW, I fear this just proves that we *do* have to tag each and every picture from the past 3.5 years. Quality over quantity... [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] 18:08, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
:::Well, Wikipedia does it, so...
:::Ahem, [cough, cough]...will you be building the template? I'll be glad to assist however I can and can review the wording, if you like. --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 18:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Image files are a different animal from articles, because they are typically uploaded only once and never modified/edited by others. Past experience also shows that often a single editor will upload a load of images in a short timeframe as personal project of theirs. So the "right" way to address this would be a friendly reminder on the editor's talk page for all of "his" images together. Not sure if/how a template would be of use here.
::::My proposal is to change the Upload File special page in some way to the effect that a file will not be uploaded if you don't enter text into its "Summary" box, and make it clear in the text on the upload page that BTW wants (requires) a primary source to be stated with every image file upload. (I think we need NicJ to do that tough). [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] 09:31, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::I think that is something that can actually done by Admins, with CSS. I'll pull Ebakunin into this. Oh, and I like this idea better than another template. --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 11:07, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::What I can do is embed code for a template into the textarea of the upload page. That way, going forward, the uploader will need to fill out the template before uploading the image. The template will look something like the summary section of this page: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Viper_probe_droid.jpg. However, I can't go back and apply the template to older pictures. --<span style="font-family:Courier">[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]]</span> <sup>([[User talk:Ebakunin|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Ebakunin|contribs]])</sup> 14:46, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Excellent, Ebakunin. Thanks!--[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 11:36, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Done. You can see an example [[:File:Malicious_Intent.jpg|here]]. Go to the [[Special:Upload|Upload a file]] page and you'll see the template in the textarea, ready to be filled out. If you have any questions or suggestions ask away. Thanks.--<span style="font-family:Courier">[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]]</span> <sup>([[User talk:Ebakunin|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Ebakunin|contribs]])</sup> 21:22, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::It looks great and provides an easy format for the uploader. Great turnaround time, too. Thanks. Is there anyway to prevent uploading when the format is not used? --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 23:27, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::Yes, but it will take a while to code. When I have some free time I'll take a look into it. --<span style="font-family:Courier">[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]]</span> <sup>([[User talk:Ebakunin|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Ebakunin|contribs]])</sup> 00:49, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::Never mind. It was easier then I thought. {{emoticon|:P}} --<span style="font-family:Courier">[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]]</span> <sup>([[User talk:Ebakunin|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Ebakunin|contribs]])</sup> 03:22, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::: Sure? i just tested it and had no problems uploading it? Or did you not yet build in the code?--[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 06:09, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::As in I already added the code. If you try to upload a new image without using the image template you should get an error notice and be prevented from finishing the upload process. --<span style="font-family:Courier">[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]]</span> <sup>([[User talk:Ebakunin|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Ebakunin|contribs]])</sup> 17:23, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::Got it. The template is required to be in there, but we can't make them fill it in. It 'inspires' them to provide the necessary information. Can we also put a statement into the template that says something like: "The uploader bears the responsibility of assuring the use of the image falls under the terms of Fair Use." Maybe have a link to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use WP article] on it? --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 18:25, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

== Clarification ==

I would like to suggest a clarification to the second clause in Guideline #2 regarding usage in articles. I would like to propose that text be added to clarify that an article that is simply a gallery of images does not qualify as "an article". I would submit: {{Quote|BTW is not an image repository. Just as you write high quality article text, include high-quality images. Each uploaded image shall be used within at least one article (or its talk page). "Articles" consisting solely of images do not qualify.}} --[[User:Scaletail|Scaletail]] 00:25, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
:Agree with your point, although I'm not sure if the policy really needs to be written any more clearly. Plus, brevity is also important in policies. I do suggest, however, to replace the "should"s with "must"s in the text just to be absolutely clear. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] 10:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

== Fair Use ==
A couple of points came up on the CGL forum that I think need to be discussed. This policy predates me, and it's not something I've ever taken an interest in, so I'm not sure what the history is, but here are the things that came up:<br>

1. ColBosch highlighted here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=56773.msg1305322#msg1305322 that the Sarna policy on Fair Use is out of step with US copyright law. Assuming that Sarna's hosted on servers in teh US, I think someone with more understnading of US law than me is asked to review the policy and confirm if we're adhering with US law or in breach of it, and propose any changes that need to be made if the latter is the case.<br>

2. Adrian Gideon/Ray highlighted here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=56773.msg1305405#msg1305405 that he doesn't think either anything PGI related or any PGI-related imagery (I'm not completely clear on which) should be mixed in with the articles on Sarna. Given his position with CGL and expertise, I think that should become a rule/policy here, and I think it should be clarified whether he's referring to imagery or everything PGI-related.<br>

Thoughts? [[User:BrokenMnemonic|BrokenMnemonic]] ([[User talk:BrokenMnemonic|talk]]) 14:35, 17 March 2017 (EDT)

:To begin with, I don't think we're in any trouble at all because the commercial IP owners know of and tolerate this wiki, which anounts (at the very least) to free advertising for their products and a community service for their customers. Sarna thus doesn't rely on Fair Use. That said, I actually think Fair Use would apply - but my grasp of US or international IP law is weak. I feel it's a non-issue.
:Ray's comment, as I understood it, was simply meant to say you shouldn't mistake PGI content for CGL content, as only CGL can define canon. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 15:59, 17 March 2017 (EDT)

::Personally I think Ray is correct and PGI content should not be mixed with canon articles [[User:Dark Jaguar|Dark Jaguar]] ([[User talk:Dark Jaguar|talk]]) 17:25, 17 March 2017 (EDT)
:::Well yes, PGI content (except Hero 'Mech fluff...) is apocryphal and needs to be marked as such, to clearly segregate it from canonical content. But beyond that, it's not "less apocryphal" than other official-but-not-canonical content. It does fall under our [[Policy:Notability]] and under Sarna BTW's purview. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 02:59, 18 March 2017 (EDT)
::::Yes it is apocryphal, but the inclusion of that material type has also never sat that well with me. Always thought it should have a separate article. I know the problems with that, it's just me wanting to see more of a separation between content somehow. I don't have a huge problem with it. On that matter the "apocryphal article marker" is fine, but I personally think the in article "Contents starts" marker is way too big and distracts from the overall article completely. [[User:Dark Jaguar|Dark Jaguar]] ([[User talk:Dark Jaguar|talk]]) 06:43, 18 March 2017 (EDT)
:::::With regards full separation of video game items, so do already have some with the [[MechCommander]] items; [[MechCommander 2/BattleMechs|BattleMechs in MechCommander 2 and its mods]] for example. Another option aside from separation is something akin to Game Rules tagging
<div class="gamerules">
like so, to make apocryphal content visible without so "aggressively" breaking up the page as the current start/end tagging does.
</div>
:::::[[User:Cyc|Cyc]]  ([[User talk:Cyc|talk]]) 07:03, 18 March 2017‎  (EDT)

::::::I like that idea, although it probably should be discussed elsewhere - perhaps the apocryphal information could be displayed like this? [[User:Dark Jaguar|Dark Jaguar]] ([[User talk:Dark Jaguar|talk]]) 11:45, 18 March 2017 (EDT)
<div style="background:#FFFF8B; border: 1px solid #A2A200; padding: 0.5em 1em; margin: 0.5em auto; overflow: hidden">
<p style="font-size: 80%;">The following information comes from '''apocryphal''' sources; the [[canon]]icity of such information is uncertain.<br></p>

All information could then go into the  box itself?
</div>
<br>
:::::::1: We have CGL's current art director, [[Special:Contributions/Brent_Evans|Brent Evans]], contributing to the site, including uploading the ''Incubus II'' image. (Assuming someone didn't start an account with his name.) Does that show some sort of implicit permission?<br>

:::::::2: A less intrusive "Content Starts" marker would be a good idea if we're keeping the video game content combined with the BattleTech content, and perhaps a separate "Apocriphal Image Gallery" below the BattleTech gallery? I wouldn't mind seeing the video game content completely separated. I don't consider the MechCommander 1/2 content truly separated, though. There is separate data but the links to the 'Mechs take us right back to the BattleTech entry. Any images are combined with the BattleTech content.--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 11:48, 18 March 2017 (EDT)

::::::::I'm open to a discussion about improving the apocryphal tags. But that belongs into [[Template talk:ApocryphalContentStart]] instead.
::::::::As for CGL people using this wiki, that's cool. It certainly reinforces my impression that the site is positively toleratd, and thus not in any legal troubles (real or theoretical). But it cannot be construed as any form of endorsement. Sarna is and wants to be an unofficial fan project only, and doesn't seek any official ties or responsibilities to the IP holders. This works both ways and protects the IP owners from Sarna hosting unseen art or third-party stuff.

:::::::::So, at the moment, the situation is:

:::::::::1. We're not actually complying with US copyright law on fair use, so we shouldn't adding the fair use icon to every image, and

:::::::::2. We're operating in a space where we haven't been asked to remove the art, but we can't ask to use the art because that will almost certainly result in the answer being no (as I'm guessing whatever distribution rights CGL paid for when they bought the art didn't include third-party distribution) so we really don't want the question to be asked.

:::::::::It sounds to me as if our use of the fair use tag is incorrect, and they should be removed from the images, and discussing the use of art on Sarna anywhere on the CGL forums or within hearing distance of someone senior in CGL is asking for us to be told to cease & desist. [[User:BrokenMnemonic|BrokenMnemonic]] ([[User talk:BrokenMnemonic|talk]]) 18:44, 18 March 2017 (EDT)

==  "edit or modification to an image"  ==

Looking for guidance on this specific policy line: ''"Please note that any edit or modification to an image technically constitutes fan work, requiring attribution to the last editor (usually in addition to the original artist) and eliminating the image's canon status."''

I ask this because of this:<br>
<u>Original canon</u>
* [https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/archive/0/04/20190202210935%21LXX_Corps.png]
* [https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/archive/e/e8/20190202211813%21XXVII_Corps.jpg]
<u>Colorized non-canon</u>
* [[:File:LXX Corps.png]]
* [[:File:XXVII Corps.jpg]]
<u>Present Articles</u>
* [[LXX Corps (Star League)]]
* [[XXVII Corps (Star League)]]

Gruese introduced me to Flamestalker, a member of a fan BT art team on Discord. Flamestalker makes colorized versions of canon unit insignia, based upon the existing canon artwork and with the descriptive colors. He was seeking someone here to discuss adding his fan creations. I was skeptical of ''what'' he was planning on uploading until he showed me these examples and what he intended. We went thru the policy and I felt the above quote--specifically the last part ("''...requiring  attribution to the last editor (usually in addition to the original artist) and eliminating the image's canon status''), as well as the line "''Unless it was specifically created for BTW to improve an article, the relevance of fan work is generally questionable''"--allowed the original b/w art to be replaced by his art. I gave him the guidance, "improve canon art, not create it out of whole cloth" and instructions on how to upload to Sarna.

Frabby has pointed out that fan-art needs to be labeled as [[:Template:ApocryphalImage|Apocryphal]] (though that is not discussed on the policy page). I feel the policy ''does'' allow for this art as an improvement to an article, but I'm not certain tagging it as apocryphal, within the article itself, is beneficial.

My suggestion to Flamestalker was that when he upload a new version of a file, he add "colorized by Flamestalker" to the summary line, so that the original art attribution remains. I've also tested the Apocryphal tag to the image and it seems to work well there; when a person wished to find the attribution for the image, they are notified the image (as displayed) is apocryphal (and my summary indicated that applies to the colorized version).

Feedback?--[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 11:24, 6 February 2019 (EST)
:Personally, I don't like the idea of putting ''anything'' fan-created in with the canon articles. Folks tend to not pay enough attention to see the apocryphal tags (or whatever other notation) and they could inadvertently influence canon. But, this isn't my site and the policy is set. That being said, I think tagging of the images as you have shown in the examples is the best we can do without making a page look bad. (MWO images should be tagged the same way!) I would like to see the colorized notation in the infobox on the file page, but I can't think of a good way to do it. It should not be placed in the artist field because that will remove it from the [http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Missing_copyright_information missing copyright information category]. Also, if the artist is using colors based on canon descriptions, those descriptions (with proper references) should be added to the parent article so users can verify on their own. If there is no specific source, the colorization is a new creation and not an improvement, so I don't think it belongs here.--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 18:10, 7 February 2019 (EST)

:: "''this isn't my site and the policy is set.''" Correction, Cache: your opinion ''does'' matter; this is how policy is set or updated. Admins work with Editors to achieve consensus. Your response is helpful/critical to that process.
:: Clearly, I think the articles are improved with such well-crafted art as in my examples, especially over the original b/w images, so I won't belabor that point. I do agree with you that the colorization should be based on canon descriptions of the insignia, with references on the file page or in the summary.
:: Would you please clarify, just as a test of a possible policy update: if the two examples above did not have reference to the color source, would you prefer the original b/w images instead for the respective articles? --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 10:14, 8 February 2019 (EST)

:::Yes, I would prefer a b/w image to a colorized image not based on a canon description. If the unit logo colorization is not based on a canon description, and multiple fans wish to show their stuff, how are we to determine which fan-colored image is (most) appropriate? If the green and yellow coloring of the LXX Corps logo doesn't suit me (assuming those colors are not canon) and I wish to make it purple and blue, then who is correct? What if those colors ''are'' canon but I would like to alter it with different shades of green and yellow? There are amazing colored images of TRO units done by fans that look better than the plain b/w images, but we don't allow them, right? Why is that? The more I type, the more I talk myself out of allowing even colorized images based on canon colors. --[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 12:36, 9 February 2019 (EST)

::::Reasonable argument. And if the insignia's colors are described, but only the b/w image exists, how do you feel about a fan-created image?--[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 13:54, 9 February 2019 (EST)

:::::It feels bad to condemn such fan work. But we have to draw a line somewhere, and canonical b/w illustrations being colored by fans does cross the line for me. Even if there is a canonical description of the color(s), details like the exact shade and composition would still be totally arbitrary. And I'm always concerned about possible accusations of "jumping to conclusions" on Sarna - like the recent Arms of Thor crest discussion over at the BT forum. Allowing any fan-made content opens up our flank to that kind of thing. (And Mendrugo is one of the community's best data miners/analysts - normally you can simply take his word for BT facts.) [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 14:05, 9 February 2019 (EST)

::::::Ah-kay; I know when I'm beaten. If interest in setting up "agreeable standards" develops, I'll pick up the banner again, but in the meantime, I'll ask Flamestalker to stand down.--[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 16:47, 9 February 2019 (EST)

:::::::I don't intend to restart the discussion on this topic. I ran across some examples of what I believe are acceptable additions of fan art, and I wanted to put them here for any future discussion (as I will likely forget where they are).

:::::::*[[:File:Kali-Yama_Weapons.jpg|Canon Kali Yama Logo]]  
:::::::*[[:File:Kali_Yama_Weapons_Industries_Logo_copy.png|Higher quality fan recreation]]
:::::::*The [[Free_Worlds_League_Military#Military_Ranks|FWLM Rank Insignia]] are also higher quality recreations of canon images in ''[[Field Manual: Free Worlds League]]''.

:::::::They're both recreations of color canon images where there really isn't any guess-work involved. In my opinion, those are acceptable additions of fan art. The FWLM Rank images were labled as [[:Template:Fanon|Fanon]] years ago, and I am about to add it to the Kali Yama image. I believe that is more appropriate than [[:Template:ApocryphalImage|Apocryphal]].
:::::::--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 19:24, 19 March 2019 (EDT)

== Image Source Requirements ==
The policy states that "Images must name their source," under [[:Policy:Images#Images_must_name_their_source|Image Tenets]]. Then in the [[:Policy:Images#Uploading_guide|Uploading Guide]] further down the page is asks for the page number, when possible. [[:Template:Image_summary/doc]] adds one more requirement: "The source of the image. Should include the book name ''and year'' from where the picture was taken." Would it not be appropriate to specify '''source''', '''year''', and '''page''' in one location within the policy? I believe it also would be appropriate to provide a link to the template in the policy and repeat those requirements in the template.--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 17:15, 25 August 2020 (EDT)
:I haven't worked with images much, but I'm ''always'' in favor of having clear policy statements like the one you suggest, and aligning tools and templates with policy. [[User:Tosta Dojen|Tosta Dojen]] ([[User talk:Tosta Dojen|talk]]) 11:58, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

:I've edited the [[:Template:Image_summary/doc]] to indicate the pages and years are optional, as the [[:Policy:Images#Uploading_guide|Uploading Guide]] implies. The policy should ''require'' a source, so that (even if vague) someone can put in the effort to verify. However, we won't remove images if they don't ''have'' pages numbers and years, which simply serve to make the verification easier. Good catch. Thanks for helping make the policy more useful.--[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 20:38, 22 May 2021 (EDT)

==Lead Image for Infobox==
This has cropped up elsewhere already. I think we need to find user consensus on the following issue, and include it in the Image policy: What is the "lead" image that should be put in the infobox? I am specifially asking about articles about units like 'Mechs, aerospace fighters, vehicles, etc.

The problem: There's a gazillion images for some units. And by now it's almost random which image ends up in the infobox at the top of the article. TRO image, Reseen image, RecGuide image, old art, new art, what have you. I feel this random mixed bag approach is... untidy. I want a standardized approach. My proposal:
* Infobox should always the the ''first'' canonical TRO style image that was published, or the first image if no TRO image exists. (This will typically be TRO3025 unseen)
* Add a gallery for (other) depicitions of the same unit: cardboard token images from game boxes or Reinforcements, new art in subsequent TROs, reseen, nuseen, iconic cover art, 3rd Ed. plastic mini, official mini (unpainted).

Do you even agree that this is a problem, and if yes, do you agree with my proposed solution? Comments please. :) [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 05:22, 19 August 2021 (EDT)

:I don't agree its a problem, however I won't oppose a unified policy.--[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 07:21, 19 August 2021 (EDT)

::Seems reasonable to me. I think if the infobox is the initial entry then the art should be too.--[[User:ReinhardtSteiner|ReinhardtSteiner]] ([[User talk:ReinhardtSteiner|talk]]) 14:29, 19 August 2021 (EDT)

:::Adjustments for odd cases may be helpful, if this policy is put in place.  Several [[Technical Readout: Irregulars]] 'Mechs come to mind: new 'Mechs whose first illustrations are of secondary militarized modifications of their primary forms. If later art depicts, say, a normal St. Florian instead of a weaponized one, the later art may be most representative. [[User:Tumult&#38;Travail|Tumult&#38;Travail]] ([[User talk:Tumult&#38;Travail|talk]]) 14:57, 19 August 2021 (EDT)

::::I don't agree that it's a widespread problem, but there ''are'' issues with some articles, notably the ''[[Banshee]]''. I prefer having the "best" TRO art relating to the infobox model at the top of the article. I know that "best" is subjective but I don't see that it has become an issue (to the point of edit wars or the like). Using only the ''first'' TRO-style artwork leaves us with greatly outdated images that some users might not even recognize. Sourcebooks, adventures, Field Manuals, and other books contained mini-TRO's for units before they were later incorporated into a combined TRO. Much of this art is terrible, and some... well... the ''[[:File:Battle Cobra Bloodright.png|Battle Cobra]]'' and ''[[:File:Broadsword-class DropShip Bloodright.png|Broadsword]]'' from ''Bloodright'' haven't been uploaded to Sarna until today... probably because nobody likes them. But they ''are'' canon, and they ''are'' the original TRO image.<br />''TRO:3055'' and ''TRO:3055 Upgrade'' feature the same variants, one with significantly better/updated artwork. Some of the "Classics" are a straight retcon of the Unseen (retcon means that the Unseen images are no longer canon, right?) while others are just modernized art for the original, non-Unseen, 'Mechs. In both cases I prefer to see the newest TRO art in the infobox. The ''Banshee'' is a rare case where the original model (the 3E) was surpassed in popularity so much that a variant (the 3S) became the featured model in the most recent introductory TRO. In the ''Banshee'''s case, I support changing the infobox to reflect the ''TRO: Succession Wars'' write-up of the BNC-3S and using the RecGuide artwork. This also means rewriting the article and moving the 3E description to the variants section.<br />The point on the galleries is basically describing what is currently being done, as far as I can tell. For the most part, galleries are ordered TRO images first, then others. TRO images are "mostly" ordered alpha-numerically by variant designation but maybe could stand to be ordered chronologically (real world). i.e. Original depiction, 2nd, 3rd, etc.--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 18:42, 19 August 2021 (EDT)
:::::Wile they ultimately don't convince me to change my mind, Cache's arguments are good. (In fact it was his reasoning that first made me consider there may be other ideas out there beyond my own. ;) ). Also, it seems like this could be a bigger picture issue about article structure and, like I said above, whether or not there is a "lead variant" of 'Mechs. The current article structure and Infobox practically demands one. I think I'll go and rebuild the ''[[Archer]]'' article to showcase my thoughts.
:::::Oh, and Rev: I feel this wiki is badly in need of some standardisation, in many article families. I take it you don’t agree? [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 02:03, 20 August 2021 (EDT)
::::::The 'lead variant' issue is probably a larger one than that of which image to use. The optimal infobox might have a field to note what variant is pictured - less weirdness from using modern art, less Irregulars trouble... [[User:Tumult&#38;Travail|Tumult&#38;Travail]] ([[User talk:Tumult&#38;Travail|talk]]) 02:55, 20 August 2021 (EDT)
:::::::I agree that standardization is needed, but I'm in favor of making it "preferred" vs "required". Allow for a bit of flexibility. Another thing to think of is that with changing the article structure, there will be a ton of work updating them all. Will it simply be changing the infobox, or, since the entire article is structured around the current format, will it have to be rewritten? Building a standard around what already exists and fixing the handful of outliers is the path of least resistance. (Though I am curious to see what Frabby has in mind for changes.) I too have thought that it would be nice to be able to add a note for the variant pictured. Standard image embedding allows mouse-over text to be added. The way the InfoBoxBattleMech template was created removes that ability. (Is there a way to also allow the normal embedding format? e.g. '''<nowiki>[[image:sample.jpg|150px|This is only a test.]] </nowiki>''' gives mouse-over text of "This is ony a test.") It's not a huge deal considering that the amount of times one image has been used in multiple products to represent different variants will lead to some confusion anyway, but it'd be nice.--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 16:36, 20 August 2021 (EDT)
::::::::I agree with Cache that the lead variant issue is likely a bigger one than the image one, Strictly sticking to the lead image issue though, I believe that using the unseen is the wrong way to go for several reasons. The main one being that the unseen images are no longer correct. The official images are the ''Classics'' from the Kickstarter and the Reseen.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 16:54, 20 August 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::The practically-retcon of the unseen poses an entire new problem of course. Should we consider it a "reset" and use the first now-canonical image? And which would that be? This is so messy that I'm inclined to not go there in the first place, keep the unseen Duane Loose TRO3025 art in the infobox, and build the article from there. A case could be made though that a new-canon image must be placed at the top of the article for unseen 'Mechs.
:::::::::Another point I'd like to make is that in my opinion, Sarna users will be most familiar with the ''oldest'' 'Mech images. I personally don't agree with the argument that using the oldest image by default could be confusing or misleading in any way. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 02:08, 26 August 2021 (EDT)
A similar issue has crept up with the different covers for the current rulebooks - should the infobox display the first cover (this is what we've done so far) or the most recent which may change at the drop of a hat, forcing Sarna editors to respond to CGL's artistic decisions with haste to keep our info current? [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 09:15, 17 September 2021 (EDT) Edit: Umm, oh yeah, you probably held off until I did the ''Archer'' workover as announced. D'uh. I'll do that now. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 09:17, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::We have articles that use thumbnail images - such as the [[Touring the Stars (series)]] page. If it'd be of use to those browsing the wiki, we could always look to take the images of the variants from the gallery in each article and include them as a thumbnail next to the description of the 'Mech variant they represent? [[User:BrokenMnemonic|BrokenMnemonic]] ([[User talk:BrokenMnemonic|talk]]) 16:31, 23 February 2022 (EST)

==Proposal to Expand Policy Regarding Images as References==
To better support good references from Apocryphal (but still official and popular) sources such as Video Games, as well as other sources such as cartoons, I ask for consensus on modifying the Images Policy as follows:

First, that the existing policy be made a subsection under the "Images as Sources" section to be entitled "Official Proclamations", and that another subsection be added, as below:

<div style="background-color:#FFFFE0; border:1px solid #666; margin:1.5em 0 .5em 0; padding:0 .5em 0 1em; -moz-border-radius:.5em">
====Screenshots from Video Games, Cartoons, Etc.====
Some (typically Apocryphal) content can only be referenced from inside a video game or from watching a video.  In these cases, a screenshot may be used as a reference.  Where possible, the image should be cropped to show only the information needed for the reference. The source information should be as specific as possible, giving the mission name and/or in-game location of the information where applicable.  The "artist" should be the username of the person who took the screenshot and "Screenshot".  The license will vary, but typically be "Fair Use".  If no articles link to such an image as a reference, it should be put to use or removed, though "What links here" should be checked as well as "File Usage".  

;In keeping with existing policy for Fanon, only ''official'' products should be used for screenshots.  Third-party Mods, player-designed in-game loadouts as distinct from "default" and "stock" configurations, and similar should not be used.

Finally, an Image Source should be the last resort: use an image as a source only if no other valid reference for that information is available.  A user's manual, an official website, and of course an official sourcebook all should trump an Image Source.

<pre>
{{Image summary
| summary = a concise but informative description of the screenshot, and the statement, "Image retained for use as a source for citation."
| artist = the creator of the screen-capture (usually the editor conducting the image upload) 
| source =  what game or video it came from, including specifics about mission, game element, or episode.  
| licensing = {{Fair use}}
}}
[[Category:Apocryphal Reference Screenshots]]
</pre>

An example of a page that uses references from screenshots, and two screenshots used as references therein:
* [[Bull Shark]]
* [[:File:Stock BSK-MAZ.png]]
* [[:File:Bull Shark Origin.png]]
</div>

Please discuss here or on Discord! --[[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 17:32, 8 March 2022 (EST)

===Comments===
: Conditional '''Support''': Other than removing the last sentence regarding lack of use (redundant, since that already applies to all unused imagery), I support this policy as worded. It is "conditional" in that ''if'' there is feedback to come that may persuade otherwise, my support may change. Should there be wording about the default placement in the infobox or gallery...or is that also redundant? --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 19:53, 8 March 2022 (EST)
::I put that bit about unused images in because that rule is too often observed more in the breach.  I won't fight to keep it there, but...well, it's an ongoing issue. Whole other topic.  As for the gallery, I feel that is more "good practice" than "policy", there may be other methods. [[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 19:56, 8 March 2022 (EST)
:::Roger all. --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 20:57, 8 March 2022 (EST)
:Bringing this over from Discord: a valid concern has been raised that this will degenerate into posting mods, or someone posting the loadout on their favorite Mech, and so forth.  I think we need to emphasize that this is only for '''official''' work: taking screenshots that show third-party mods is Fanon, and thus not for this Wiki.  Showing the default or stock loadout for an in-game 'Mech is acceptable, but do not upload pictures of (and I have done this) the Five-Gauss Rifle Annihilator.  That's ''fanon''.  On a related note, and I think for ''all'' uses of images as sources, we should consider Image Sources to be the Source of Last Resort: if there is a more traditional, official reference available, use that instead of an image.--[[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 21:03, 8 March 2022 (EST)
::One other thing that I feel needs to be clarified for the record: MechWarrior: Living Legend is a Mod, and as such would not be eligible for this policy as written or as I intended it.--[[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 18:39, 14 March 2022 (EDT)

:::1) I think it could get overly messy having a gallery loaded with reference screenshots within the article. I like the links in references. Some images may be specifically needed in the article. Otherwise they could sit in the "Apocryphal Reference Screenshots" category.<br>2) In both sample images (Bullshark) you have your username in the artist field as well as the source field. I think "User: Talvin (screenshot)" belongs in the artist field but can be removed from the source. No need for the duplication.Looks like you covered that in the proposed policy but I want to be sure. For aesthetics I prefer using parenthesis around screenshot.<br>3) File names. I'd like to see them start with the article name plus additional descriptors. This will keep them grouped when displayed in the category. "Stock BSK-MAZ.png" would be changed to something like, "Bull Shark BSK-MAZ Loadout.png". "Bull Shark Origin.png" is fine as-is.--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 21:55, 22 March 2022 (EDT)

::::It's late for me, but tomorrow I will see about bringing the example article to the standard you suggest and we can discuss how it looks.--[[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 22:01, 22 March 2022 (EDT)

::::There.  How's that look now?--[[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 09:01, 23 March 2022 (EDT)
====Citing Images====
This is a separate subtopic that would also affect the Policy currently in place: how to cite the images!  My example above is one possibility.  We can explore other possibilities.  Dmon suggested something in Discord, and I will leave it to him to add it here in his own words.--[[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 18:40, 14 March 2022 (EDT)