Editing Talk:List of BattleTech products
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Line 102: == Betas == == Betas == We need to add the beta versions of Combat Manual: Mercenaries and Interstellar Operations on here, as they're both official products even if superceded. I have digital copies of both somewhere, if I can dig out the right memory stick, but I don't have a hard copy of the beta version of IO that was released at one of the US cons - has anyone here got such a beast? I seem to remember reading it had a slightly different catalogue number and price. We need to add the beta versions of Combat Manual: Mercenaries and Interstellar Operations on here, as they're both official products even if superceded. I have digital copies of both somewhere, if I can dig out the right memory stick, but I don't have a hard copy of the beta version of IO that was released at one of the US cons - has anyone here got such a beast? I seem to remember reading it had a slightly different catalogue number and price. − − == Merging the PDF products into the main product line. == − With the vast majority of product now being released in PDF format I feel it is time to merge them into the main products list rather than maintain their status as an "offshoot". I for one have not bought a physical BT book in years.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 11:29, 27 November 2018 (EST) − :I think by now I agree. With print on demand around the corner (and tiny print runs for GenCon releases which I suspect are print-on-demand already) the idea that physical products are the premier product line no longer holds true. We still need to decide on which product is the "lead" product on this list because I wouldn't want to list every combo release twice (once for EPUB, once for physical product). My suggestion is to go with whatever gets published first, but treat the physical product version as the primary one within articles. (And there should only be one article per publication regardless of wether it's print, PDF, or print-on-demand. Provided that the product is truly identical, that is.) [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 12:07, 27 November 2018 (EST) − ::My view is that we should continue to treat the physical products as the premier products, but I'm all in favour of merging the PDF-only products and physical ones together into a single product listing. I think the physical books are always going to be the premiere editions, because as much as I adore the PDF-only products (particularly series like ''Touring the Stars'' and ''Field Reports 2765'') there are two important distinctions for me with physical products; firstly, they always seem to be the larger products, and secondly, it's print products that push the overall plot narrative forwards. The bulk of the PDF products are infill or very specific looks at minor areas - the metaplot doesn't get driven forward by them. − ::I think we should stick with a single article for each product, but it would be worth expanding the infobox to allow us to record multiple editions within a single article and single infobox, and I'd suggest reviewing the template for product articles to include sections where different editions (and the differences between them) can be discussed. [[User:BrokenMnemonic|BrokenMnemonic]] ([[User talk:BrokenMnemonic|talk]]) 02:43, 28 November 2018 (EST) − :::Other than price and release date, I do not think we have had any products that are significantly different between Print and PDF versions (feel free to correct me) so updating the infobox could be as simple as duplicating "First Published" and "MSRP" and have (Print) and (PDF) in parentheses. As for what to use as premier products in terms of Wiki use, [[Shattered Fortress]] likely sets the standard for how major physical releases will be handled in the future. Small run at a Con, Digital edition and then wide release Print. With the advent of POD we may even lose the wider physical release in the next decade. I propose that we use the whatever is first published for wider consumption as the basis for any Moratorium restrictions because the vast majority of people who wait for the Print copy over PDF are doing it by their own choice and we should not let that restrict us as a wiki. − − :::Also with HBS and CGL now giving out future release dates (I an happy about this) might it be an idea to develop a new "upcoming product" tag that allows us to set up product pages in advance but allowing for a "This may Change" aspect.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 05:38, 28 November 2018 (EST) − − ::::The last hard-copy of a Battletech book I bought was a second hand copy... and here in Spain getting hard-copies is complex unless I directly buy them to USA pages, with the cost it has. Now, I've been seeing that now we have two types or products: PDF only (ones that are never going to be in hard copy) and potential hard copy ones. The first ones are covered as now, but not the second as tracing prices and dates and a few things, two potential options kill the template. I would suggest (as I'm not an expert with these templates) two have duplicated the relevant fields to cover PDF and hardcopy, and I would one a field like Printed on Demand (Yes/No) to represent that they have sometimes printed on demand (We have no information on how this process is going to go, how often is that going to happen, and so on). − ::::It was also asked to merge the products in the corresponding years: here again fully agree that this is the best option. I would also suggest to add to that list also the small section of BattleCorps Products, as we cover some 3rd party products and the ones from BattleCorps are solid ones (or were at their time).--[[User:Pserratv|Pserratv]] ([[User talk:Pserratv|talk]]) 06:09, 28 November 2018 (EST) − − ::::I agree with Dmon's thoughts above. I too haven't purchased a physical Battletech book in years, maybe even a decade now, and the only differences I've noticed is between older hard copies and PDFs with the removal of 'unseen' imagery. Any differences important enough to note could be written in a 'Differences between print and EPUB versions' section. As far as when to end the moratorium period, perhaps it could be based upon whether we have a fixed date for print release or if it's likely to remain EPUB-only for the foreseeable future.--[[User:Orwell84|Orwell84]] ([[User talk:Orwell84|talk]]) 04:14, 29 November 2018 (EST) − − Ok so I think we agree on including PDF products, and that the article should get an overhaul. Does anybody know if there's a character/size limit to articles here on Sarna.net? − − While we're at it, I would like to add in BattleTechnology issues, novels and BattleCorps publications - at least the individual BC stories; BC INN articles like MilSpecs or Isle of the Blessed aren't covered in individual articles and should be covered summarily under BattleCorps. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 04:40, 29 November 2018 (EST) − − :As per your question on size of an article, no idea, but the [[Solaris City]] one is big, and it is like this: − Display title Solaris City − Default sort key Solaris City − Page length (in bytes) 124,021 − --[[User:Pserratv|Pserratv]] ([[User talk:Pserratv|talk]]) 05:03, 29 November 2018 (EST) − − ::::Merging into one list is good. What about adding a "Product Type" (Print, POD, PDF, EPub, etc.) category to the table to denote the medium(s) in which the product was offered? Maybe change the "Description/Type" column to avoid confusion, unless there's a better term for product type.--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 14:49, 1 December 2018 (EST) − :::::That particular approach may prove unworkable. As you correctly point out there's considerable overlap with "Description/Type". This is indeed where such info belongs, in parantheses perhaps: e.g. "Sourcebook (PDF)" or "Novella (EPub)". Sometimes the point is moot, e.g. miniatures or boxed sets. Conversely, I can't come up with an example requiring an additional field. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 17:07, 1 December 2018 (EST) − :If the source material adds something to the exist lore, then I say we should merge it in.(Will9761) − ::What is this merged product going to look like. Some of the PDFs have different features than printed ones. -- [[User:Wrangler|Wrangler]] ([[User talk:Wrangler|talk]]) 22:53, 3 December 2018 (EST) − :::Could you give some examples I could take a look at, please? [[User:BrokenMnemonic|BrokenMnemonic]] ([[User talk:BrokenMnemonic|talk]]) 02:51, 4 December 2018 (EST) − :I have let this sit for a month and nobody has said no to merging, just a matter of how. − − :For now I will merge the tables based on the info at hand. Once that is done I will give you all a poke and we can see if we can find a way to include differences between PDF and Print/Print on Demand.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 08:25, 2 January 2019 (EST) − − ::::::To my previous suggestion of adding another category (column) to denote whether a product is physical or electronic, "Medium" is the best title I can come up with (suggestions welcome). I certainly don't mind putting PDF, EPub, etc. in parenthesis in the "Description/Type" column as Frabby suggested. Examples of these are here: [[User:Cache/Product_List]]. Any differences between a print and PDF product should be addressed in the individual product pages, not in this list. --[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 20:13, 22 January 2019 (EST) − :::::::Looking at it I think I like the description/type one best as it keeps the table that little bit slimmer (I have noticed the larger tables do not work very well on mobile devices)--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 20:30, 22 January 2019 (EST) − − CGL has just [https://bg.battletech.com/news/coming-soon-to-print-on-demand-the-wars-of-reaving-battletech-activity-book/ announced] that they will offer out-of-print sourcebooks in a print-on-demand format; ''[[Wars of Reaving]]'' being the first sourcebook offered in this fashion. They basically intend to go all the way right down to the original housebooks (not that I expect that to happen anytime soon, but the intent is explicitly stated).<br />I think this step is the last nail in the coffin for a distinction between physical and digital products here on Sarna. Miniatures will remain physical-only products and computer games will remain digital-only products, but beyond such outlier cases the lines are now so blurred as to be negligible. Will have to look into article and category structures here to see if the change goes beyond what we already discussed and agreed. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 03:11, 16 April 2020 (EDT) − − :I believe it was inevitable and if I am honest a good move by CGL. I think the last physical book I bought new may of been [[TRO 3075]] way back in 2008. Anything physical I have bought since has usually been obscure things like [[MechCommander - Prima's Official Strategy Guide]] with the sole purpose of making Sarna articles. I do not really think we need to change much from our end if they eventually plan to do thew whole line.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 06:11, 16 April 2020 (EDT) − − ::"''They basically intend to go all the way right down to the original housebooks...''" Out of curiosity, is there a source for this statement? I read the announcement and Cubby's comments on the official forum but didn't see that. Seems like a pretty big stretch to do the original House books considering the massive art removals and other things to do with 30-year-old products. --[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 17:30, 16 April 2020 (EDT) − − ::: Never mind... [https://bg.battletech.com/news/coming-soon-to-print-on-demand-the-wars-of-reaving-battletech-activity-book/ found it]. Color me potentially impressed. --[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 17:40, 16 April 2020 (EDT) − − I think we seriously need to rework and expand this article. "Physical product" is no longer a useful criterion, as CGL are increasingly relying on EPUB releases plus PoD which is blurring the lines as discussed above. Consequently, I feel we need to include all digital publications here, not only from now on but going back to, eh, whenever it started - 2003 I think. And while we're at it, all novels and all BattleCorps fiction. Let's go all-in. Because I cannot come up with a meaningful reason why this master catalog should be limited in any way anymore. (Well, third party miniatures are poorly covered on Sarna.net BTW as-is and would be a chore... but in an ideal world even these would have to be included, being game supplements.) I suggest a format similar to [[2019 Clan Invasion crowdfunding campaign#Rewards]], using the fields "Product" (this field to include the product code, if any), "Year", "Producer", "Item Type", and "MSRP". Let's find out the article size limit... [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 16:17, 22 August 2020 (EDT) − − One more thought: Would it be feasible/sensible to divide the product list into one list of gaming products, and a separate list of fiction? [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 15:27, 23 August 2020 (EDT) − − :I think it would be useful to be able to divide the list between gaming products and pure fiction, or to at least have a way of tagging things that are pure fiction, because I suspect there's probably a subset within the BattleTech fandom who are interested in the gaming products - the crunchy bits - and not so much in the fiction. If it's a case of one more tag or field, that doesn't seem like an excessive burden when adding the data if it provides an additional element of usability for at least part of our audience. [[User:BrokenMnemonic|BrokenMnemonic]] ([[User talk:BrokenMnemonic|talk]]) 17:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT) − − ::Added Frabby's suggestion as [[User:Cache/Product_List#Proposal_3_.28Frabby.29:_Remove_Division_by_Date.2C_Separate_Fiction_.28Novels.2FNovelas.29|Proposal 3]] on the previously linked page. I like it, but there are some questions: 1) What exactly are you looking for in the "Item Type" column? 2) Should MSRP be listed for all available types (Print/E-book)? 3) Do you want authors listed with the fiction or keep it as simple as the other products?--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 19:28, 24 August 2020 (EDT) − − :::With separate list, I meant separate articles. Games and fiction seem to be two distinct and separate pillars of BattleTech, but I fear that separating them would defeat the purpose of having a summary list of BattleTech products. We could perhaps fudge it by leading all fiction products with "Fiction" in the Item Type field, e.g. Fiction - Novel, Fiction - Short Story.<br />Thank you Cache for the "mockup" comparisons. I find that I disagree with making the product code a link because it is a nightmare to update such links whenever CGL or their distributor(s) decide to change them.<br />Another thing is that product code should perhaps be its own field after all, as the entire article is essentially becoming an Excel sheet. Authors shouldn't be listed here though, because that really only applies to fiction in a meaningful sense.<br />As for "Item Type", I'd expect a limited number of brief descriptors here such as Rulebook, Technical Readout, Novel, etc. - thinking about it, it may actually not be worth to catalogue here if something comes in hardcopy or digital form. Except for MSRP, which I feel is a useful data point here. Hmm. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 07:02, 27 August 2020 (EDT) − − == How do we order the products within a year? == − − How do we order the products within a year? By time of appereance, by type, first pure battletech, then other stuff (games, clothing, pins, dice...)?--[[User:Pserratv|Pserratv]] ([[User talk:Pserratv|talk]]) 10:21, 17 June 2019 (EDT) − :Up until now it was sorted by firm, then product number. The firms in turn were sorted (based on gut feeling) by how close they were to the license, with computer games and original foreign language products the last entries. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 14:12, 17 June 2019 (EDT) − ::Me and Wrangler have been doing it between us for the last few years... So the more current stuff is generally done in order of release, can't really speak for anything older than about 5 years old though. − − ::There was talk of making them sortable, <strike>it just has not been done yet</strike>.[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 17:16, 17 June 2019 (EDT) − :::Now sortable--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 17:30, 17 June 2019 (EDT) − ::::Got the point. Thanks!--[[User:Pserratv|Pserratv]] ([[User talk:Pserratv|talk]]) 03:23, 18 June 2019 (EDT) − − == Boxed Set vs. Board Game vs. Game System == − − This product list is nice resource. I have been looking to clean up and uniformize some of the type designations and category tags for the various products. In my survey, I have encountered three different category tags that significantly overlap in terms of meaning: [[:Category:Boxed Set]], [[:Category:Board Games]], and [[:Category:Game Systems]]. I notice that this list tends to favor the term `Board Game', while `Boxed Set' tends to be favored elsewhere. A definition for `Boxed Set' exists in [[:Category:Boxed Set]], but I am curious if there are working definitions for the other two in the context of Sarna. [The term `Board Game' can be defined somewhat differently in different gaming circles. For instance collectable card games and collectible Clix miniature games could be considered `Game Systems' but I surmise that there would be debate about whether they are `Board Games'. Also, some would not classify purely miniature based (i.e., hexless) wargaming as a board game, but would classify hex map based play as a board game. (The latter is done on a game board, the former is not.] − − So do you consider the term `Board Game' synonymous with `Boxed Set'? or with `Gaming System'? If you see a clear distinction, what would be your definition for `Board Game'? Moreover, what value or rationale is there in using the term `Board Game' as a product type? − − I pose these questions as a starting point for discussion and I would be interested to hear perspectives. [I see that there have been a number of past discussions regarding type designations connected to this page.] --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 00:48, 28 June 2021 (EDT) − − :Afaik, the simple truth of the matter is that the terms were never properly defined, nor was a standard established (beyond simply going by precedent) for what terms to use in this list. I agree that it is desirable to have that. Open to suggestions. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 02:08, 28 June 2021 (EDT) − − :Great discussion topic, Dude RB, and I agree with Frabby that the entire system needs a wash. If I had to kill two of those three categories, I would keep "Gaming System". I'm not sure what the importance is in identifying a particular product as a board game, even if it were not muddled by a "brazillion" different & individual definitions for that. Similarly, "Boxed Set" doesn't seem that important enough of a distinction (to me) to set it in opposition to "Gaming Systems", though I'd be open to an argument as to how it might need to be set aside as a sub-category of "Gaming Systems" (maybe in opposition to stand-alone rulebooks). --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 07:39, 28 June 2021 (EDT) − − ::This is helpful to know. I think it may be best to build a classification scheme and then come up with nomenclature to match. As I have been thinking about this, I have found it helpful to think about games through three tiers: Systems, Products, and Components. A `Game System' is the whole collection and ecosystem of what would be considered the game. (Examples of Game Systems would be BattleTech, Alpha Strike, BattleTech: The CCG, MechWarrior: Clix, and the BattleTech RPG.) A `Game Product' is a specific product that is created and sold (so has a product code) that has direct involvement in gameplay. (Examples of game products would be intro box sets, rulebooks (print or electronic), sourcebooks, TRO's, and miniature sets.) A `Game Component' is a specific object used in a game. (Examples of game components would be dice, individual miniatures, individual maps, and individual AlphaStrike cards.) Certain products (like Rulebooks) may consist of only one component, while others may have multiple components. − − ::I think that "Game System" should be defined in this higher level way, thus it is a category, but it is not a `product type'. The term "Board Game" tends to blur the distinction between System and Product. [When there is only one product tied to a system (e.g. [[The Succession Wars]] and classic non-BattleTech board games) this blurring is a non-issue.] But when there are multiple products within a system, the distinction becomes important to make. A similar issue occurs for rulebooks. (The 'rules' define part of the system but the 'rulebook' is a product.) I do think it important to distinguish between products that are rulebooks (with nothing else) and intro box sets, which is a combination of a rulebook and sufficient game components to play the game. − − ::So I think that there is a place to have a product type that denotes a product that contains a rulebook and foundational game components (e.g., maps, tokens, miniatures, dice, record sheets, etc.) needed to play the respective game or game expansion. But what to call this is a key question. "Boxed Set", "Intro Box Set", "Game Box", and "Game Introduction" are potential terms. I am starting to grow fond of the term "Game Box" for this purpose. (It would encompass [[The Succession Wars]] which is very much a single product game, the various intro box sets, and Clan Invasion which is not an intro but an expansion.) Other suggestions for what to name this product type? Other thoughts in general? --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 18:39, 28 June 2021 (EDT) − − :::After letting this simmer a bit, I think "Board Game" is the more appropriate term for the 'type' field of products that serve as a core game box or a game expansion. (The category "Game System" could be defined as a cateogry for articles that concern the whole of particular game ecosystem. For example [[BattleTech (board game)]] is about a "Gaming System" (so the article should be retitled.), while the specific product [[BattleTech, Fourth Edition]] is a "Board Game") An issue with the term "Boxed Set" is that the term is defined by it packaging and not its function (For instance the Reinforcement Products such as [[BattleTech Reinforcements 2]] seem to be called box sets as well are they sold in a box.) − − :::So my proposal would be to (1) convert any product types listed as "Boxed Set" to "Board Game" and (2) merge the category [[:Category:Boxed Set]] into [[:Category:Board Games]]. Note: I think that term "box set" or "boxed set" can still be used (say in the case of [[BattleTech boxed set]]). So my proposal simply applies to the type and category for product pages. Please feel free to share your thoughts. --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 23:48, 24 October 2021 (EDT) − − :::One slight revision: As far as product types go, I will reserve "Board Game" as the type for products that are stand-alone board games that are not intended to be expanded (e.g. [[The Succession Wars]]), but use "Board Game Core" as the type for the products that are board games are purposely open to expansion and combination with other products. (This also helps further distinguish the product from the entire game system.) The category "Board Games" would still be the proper category home. ("Board Game Starter" is another contender that came to mind, but this would then necessitate the use of "Board Game Expansion". "Board Game Core" has the benefit of being able to include expansions as well without needing to separate starters from expansions. But this is something that can continue to be refined. Alternative suggestions for the term "Core" are welcome to be shared.) --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 08:07, 25 October 2021 (EDT) − − ::::I like the use of the word "Core". However, how about "Core Game" as a suggestion (vice "Board Game Core")? − ::::Technically—and I know there is some debate about this—when I think "board game", I'm thinking of things like Monopoly, Clue, etc. BattleTech's core game rules (currently ''BattleTech: A Game of Armored Combat'') tend to be regarded as a "tabletop game", which ''may'' be a subset of "board games", while ''A Time of War'' would be neither "board game" nor "tabletop game", but a "roleplaying game". On [https://bg.battletech.com/books/core_rulebooks/ CGL's site] all of these "core" games are referred to as "Core Rulebooks". I think I'm suggesting that maybe we use "Core Game" or "Core Rulebooks" for the category. --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 10:33, 25 October 2021 (EDT) − − :::::I do like "Core Game" for type as well. It is a good suggestion. I think that [[The Succession Wars]] should definitely be described as a Board Game. But separating out [[The Succession Wars]] from the rest seems advised. Otherwise, BattleTech, BattleForce, AlphaStrike, BattleSpace, AeroSpace, BattleTroops etc., are technically right on the boundary between a board game and tabletop wargame. If it is played on hexsheets it can be formally considered a board game but without hexsheets it really is not. I do think downplaying the "board" portion is good. It would be nice to make the product distinction clearer. I think that "Core Game Set" may give that final distinction. So my revised plan is now as follows. − − :::::(1) Convert the type of each "Boxed Set" to a "Core Game Set", with the exception of designating the type of [[The Succession Wars]] as a "Board Game" − :::::(2) Use the category "Core Game Sets" to replace both "Boxed Sets" and "Board Games", i.e. to denote products that serve as a playable game module. (Note: The category "Core Game Sets" may possibly even subsume the starter sets for MechWarrior Dark Age, but I will have to take a look.) − :::::(3) The category "Game Systems" can be used for articles on game system overviews/summaries (as opposed to specific products). − :::::--[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 18:50, 25 October 2021 (EDT) − − ::::::Sounds like a plan. --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 10:17, 26 October 2021 (EDT) − − == Product Type Classification Tree == − − Expanding upon the former item and in connection with clarifying certain product types, it seemed appropriate to build a [[Product Type Classification Tree]]. So I have drafted one. This reflects an attempt at putting the types used in the current list into a visual organizational form, but it reveals some spots needing smoothing out and clarifying. (Some may well be old issues and some may be new.) I will start by posing the following question(s) − − 1) Are there any product types that this fails to include or improperly represents in the current state of things? If so, what are they? − − 2) What `product types' do you feel satisfied with (i.e., which feel settled and well-defined)? Which do you feel need work? − − --[[User:Dude RB|Dude RB]] ([[User talk:Dude RB|talk]]) 22:18, 1 July 2021 (EDT) − :Replied in the Tree talk page. [[User:Frabby|Frabby]] ([[User talk:Frabby|talk]]) 02:45, 2 July 2021 (EDT)
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== Betas == | == Betas == | ||
We need to add the beta versions of Combat Manual: Mercenaries and Interstellar Operations on here, as they're both official products even if superceded. I have digital copies of both somewhere, if I can dig out the right memory stick, but I don't have a hard copy of the beta version of IO that was released at one of the US cons - has anyone here got such a beast? I seem to remember reading it had a slightly different catalogue number and price. | We need to add the beta versions of Combat Manual: Mercenaries and Interstellar Operations on here, as they're both official products even if superceded. I have digital copies of both somewhere, if I can dig out the right memory stick, but I don't have a hard copy of the beta version of IO that was released at one of the US cons - has anyone here got such a beast? I seem to remember reading it had a slightly different catalogue number and price. | ||
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