general information part 2

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ghostrider
06/16/16 01:53 AM
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The thought came to me about apcs moving troops, but haven't seen any with extra storage for ammunition the troops would use.
I know the game doesn't really deal with infantry running out of ammo, so it gets over looked.
Has anyone thought of making an apc design that deals with this? I know most would think an ammo carrier would be the idea, though not sure if a different unit from the apc would be a good idea. It would be targeted just for not looking like the apc.
ghostrider
06/20/16 05:10 PM
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thought came to me and I thought I would find out if there is any basis for it.

What would people think about an internal structure that weighed more then normal, but had a better strength to it, and maybe allowed more armor to be added to the mech frame?
Almost like hardened armor but being a structure material.
It might allow 3 points of armor instead of 2 per structure, and weigh say 1.2 times the normal skeleton.
Akalabeth
06/20/16 07:38 PM
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There's already a Hardened Armor Equivalent for Internal Structure:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Reinforced_Structure

Modular Armor can increase the armour above normal in a given location.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Modular_Armor

Having internal structure mount being capable of mounting more armour doesn't really make any sense. Particularly if mounting limitations have to do with surface area. Having a stronger skeleton doesn't enable more armour to be mounted. Only a bigger skeleton, which would be a bigger mech. If you want more points than normal just use Hardened Armor.
ghostrider
06/21/16 12:54 AM
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Thickness of armor comes into effect.
Otherwise, how would you explain ferrous fiber and hardened armor?
Reinforce adds to critical protection and doubles internal structure. For some units the double weight of the structure isn't worth the risk. For some, ie missile boats, it may well be worth it.
Now surface area is WHY armor has so little protection per ton on things like warships. Too much area for the ton of armor to try and protect.
Also, this would not throw off a mechs balance like the modular armor does.

Having internal structure mount being capable of mounting more armor doesn't really make any sense.
Why do vehicles do so?

I had thought about giving the heavy structure a bonus for physicals, like +1 for light, 2 for medium, 3 for heavy and 4 for assault. Kind of like using lead in a pipe over a normal pipe.
Had also thought about gaining an extra critical spot using it, but that might be too far.

Now I would like to know where it says a stronger skeleton doesn't enable more armor.

And a thought about hardened armor and modular armor. Isn't that adding more points to the structure?
You can double the armor with hardened which is doing what was said makes no sense. Modular adds 10 points.
Akalabeth
06/21/16 01:51 PM
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Hardened armor isn't thicker. It's harder. The name should be a give away
Ferro armour takes up critical space. It's bulkier

Battlemechs aren't vehicles.

Another problem with the idea is that your structure would invalidate existing rulesheets because it would require the sheet to have more armour dots than it would currently, 50% more .You'll notice that Hardended Armor and Hardened Structure are designed with that limitation in mind. They don't change the number of dots, merely how they behave.

It doesn't say anywhere that surface area is a limitation of mounting armour, it's simply the pattern. There's bulky armour, there's hardened armour, but there's no rules or mechanic for layering on extra armour outside of modular armour, and layering on extra regular armour is what your item would be designed to do.
ghostrider
06/21/16 02:15 PM
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You misunderstand the concept. It would not add to extra internal slots to be hit in the original idea. Even the idea of an extra space for items would not really affect the sheets. Simple have it for something that does not affect the unit, like maybe case for innersphere mechs.

Ferro armor takes up critical space and is bulkier. Is that not along the lines of thicker?
This would suggest they went internal instead of external for the additional armor.
The idea with the heavy internals is that there is some extra space for securing armor to the structure, would allow thicker armor to be secured to it.
This would be based on the concept that the connections for armor on normal structure can only support so much armor. Instead of a single 2 inch piece of frame, you might have two 1 1/2 inch pieces of frame to connect to. Granted taking some extra internals might be needed.

Along these lines, there would be weak points in armor where the structure doesn't reinforce the armor in a normal frame. Using a skyscraper frame as an example. The main supports are not every 16 inches like a house is but full floors, I want to say over 8 feet from each other, but not sure on this.
The heavy frame would have some extra pieces to go in between.

As for the argument of not fitting in with the model of the game most of the new tech doesn't. Before they changed the rules, the only place you could have double the armor points on a mech was the head. Now hardened allows twice as much on a mech, and modular allows an extra 10 points in one section. This did not follow that train of thought.
Nor did others. The gauss rifle destroy the heat/range/damage concepts of weapons that came before. Hell the iatm combines alot of things into one unit. That goes against the doctrine as well.
The only difference is, I am not part of the design crew.
Akalabeth
06/21/16 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Even the idea of an extra space for items would not really affect the sheets.


Quote:
It might allow 3 points of armor instead of 2 per structure, and weigh say 1.2 times the normal skeleton.



This requires changes to the record sheet. Because again, your idea would allow battlemechs to carry up to 50% more armour points. Which would also require that the armour dots be resized because right now in some locations they're maxed out space wise for the blank (ie 100 ton) record sheet.

If you've changed your idea to instead enhance physicals and not allow extra armour then obviously that would not apply. But any item that allows additional armour points would require changing the sheets.
ghostrider
06/21/16 11:15 PM
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I did overlook max armor one the big boys. For some stupid reason, I was thinking lights and mediums being the ones to use this. Like surviving a gauss slug on a 20 tonner.

The idea of the extra physicals was in addition to the rest of the idea.

As for additional armor points, doesn't modular armor do the same thing?
Modular Armor adds ten points of standard armor protection to a unit in a particular location.
I would think this would require changing the sheets.
ghostrider
06/22/16 12:48 AM
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You suggested you have to change the sheets, but you could run the armor like hardened for the extra points. If you have 6 points above the max armor in that area, you note +6 and half fill the armor points for those as you take damage, then revert to full fills after you do the 6 points of damage to fill the armor damage from the extra. No need to redo the entire sheets.
I suspect they do something like that with the modular armor.

As for the idea of crit hiding, I would think it would be limited to multi critical units, so say a double sink could hide a crit in the 'phantom' area. Or say a normal ppc would be marked as 2 crits with the third hidden by the structure. Maybe limit it to specific body parts, such as torsos only, or maybe limbs.

These are ideas for it. Not the final draft, as some might be more valid then others.
Akalabeth
06/22/16 04:07 PM
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Yeah I don't know modular armour works offhand either.
Just something to consider when you're designing your equipment.

Generally structural equipment doesn't impact other equipment. So having the structure affect the armor will be more complicated than the stuff already in the game. You might want to limit it to just one or two effects. Though some of the newer stuff is already more complicated. Heavy Armour in particular which has about 4 different rules/effects.
ghostrider
06/22/16 04:33 PM
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This is not the end result. It was just seeing if any others think it might be something worth exploring, expanding, or burying as an idea.
If you look at the iatm system, it has streak, idf, as well as multiple ammunition types that change range and damage.
So combining things isn't out of the question anymore.
Hell, it could be said to be reinforced endosteel composite.

As alot of things posted, they were put up to get input from others.
The options are there to see what, if any, would be something to run with.
Akalabeth
06/22/16 04:56 PM
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I know it's not the end result, that's why I'm giving you feedback. Pointing out things you need to consider. Like the question of how you will represent extra armour on the sheet, something you admitted to not have considered for larger units. And also pointing out that it's a bit complicated.

How complicated do you want it? What niche in the construction system will it fill? How does the cost or abilities compare to other equipment with the same or similar effects? All questions to consider.
CrayModerator
06/22/16 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Akalabeth writes:

All questions to consider.



Yes, yes. Very good. No arguing, just discussing and a healthy review of an idea. This moderator is happy with the current turn of conversation.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
06/23/16 12:41 AM
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If you print your own sheets, simply coloring the spots you would use to represent the extra armor like hardened armor to represent the spots above the normal max. Half fill per point of damage, then when you get to normal spots, fill them completely as normal.
It was suggested a little earlier that you could just write +(number) above/beside the areas that are above max and use that to show the points.
Do we have an example of the modular armor sheet available for all to see how they did that?

Honestly, any new item causes complications with the system. Some more then others.
All advanced weapons caused issues when the came out as well as armor and electronics and such.

You could make up several new forms of structure and use one advantage on each. The extra weight verse reduced weight needs something to make it more appealing.




And just to make the moderator unhappy..

you ^(&$(@#)@$)%*@#)$&@#&$)@(*)(&%*#%(*&)#(%*&
ghostrider
09/03/16 03:56 AM
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Ok. New information has come to light about the record sheets having issues with the new equipment.
The compact engine as well as the small cockpit would require different sheets as they open up crits that the sheets do not have available.

Just something to show even the game has things that change the sheets.
ghostrider
09/05/16 02:13 AM
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Wouldn't a mech get knocked down if hit by an artillery round?
The standard tube shots do damage to target hex, as well as those adjacent to them as well.
The sheer force of having 90 meters of damaging force hit you, should be more then enough to take even a quad off it's feet.

That is over 180 feet from one end to the other, with max force in the center.
And the units don't block the damage on the opposite side from where they got hit.
Even the lowly thumper doing 5/2 damage means 45 meters away would still be hit with 2 damage.
CarcerKango
09/05/16 10:15 AM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Wouldn't a mech get knocked down if hit by an artillery round?
The standard tube shots do damage to target hex, as well as those adjacent to them as well.
The sheer force of having 90 meters of damaging force hit you, should be more then enough to take even a quad off it's feet.

That is over 180 feet from one end to the other, with max force in the center.
And the units don't block the damage on the opposite side from where they got hit.
Even the lowly thumper doing 5/2 damage means 45 meters away would still be hit with 2 damage.



Well, remember that it's not necessarily all the actual blast radius. The outer edges of the affected hexes could just be the danger zone for shrapnel or whatever, which could be why you get the damage dropoff instead of consistent impact damage throughout. You don't have to be caught in the blast to suffer from it :P
ghostrider
09/05/16 11:42 AM
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It was about being at ground zero, not the adjacent hexes.
The outer edges was to emphasize just how much force might be in the blast.

And depending on the direction you are hit from would make it even more likely to bite the dust. Leaning forward for a run only to have it hit from the rear... But I originally thought of just standing there being hit. Granted the thumper isn't the same as the long tom but should be enough to dump you on your **** even in a 100 ton mech.
happyguy49
09/05/16 07:01 PM
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If a mech is at 'ground zero' of a Sniper or Long Tom regular hit, or even one hex away from a Long Tom hit, it most definitely COULD get knocked down, as it will take 20 or 30 points of damage and must make a PSR to avoid falling. But it wouldn't be a default result; these are big huge walking tanks that are less likely to be knocked down by a shockwave than soft meatbags.
ghostrider
10/20/16 12:54 AM
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The question of how hardened armor affects control of a unit made me think of a few more questions.
The suspension should be better for heavier vehicles, so wouldn't a heavy vehicle with a max speed of say 30 kph, should not lean nearly as much as say a 10 ton unit going 100+ kph doing the same turn?
With that in mind, wouldn't speed be a major factor in when a unit needs a drive roll or the penalty of doing so?
The cruise/flank speed itself doesn't seem enough to determine this.

A well designed unit should have the armored plating far enough away from the motive system to allow full range of motion without being interfered with.
This does NOT suggest the end result is made to work well, verse be as cheap to make as they can and still work.
ghostrider
12/07/16 11:52 PM
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The idea of having piloting rolls for damage taken based on the units weight came up in a conversation.

It was asked after seeing the tag your it mech.
Since 20 points of damage to that unit basically kills it, yet for an atlas, it is just over a single ton, or under 2% of the body weight, why would both suffer the same effects? Even surviving hits in a lighter mech, they are effected the same.

Should the damage piloting roll be based on the units weight, along with, but not just how much damage it takes?
That would mean a 20 ton mech taking say a large laser or even medium laser hit might fall over from the damage done, as the gyro doesn't compensate for the weight loss, while a banshee would just shrug it off.

I would think the gyro would be set for what the unit is designed to deal with, and would be thrown off if that is greatly changed. As the total weight would be the key here, it sounds like the generic damage roll is off some.

Yes, I understand the 20 points was a fast generic fix for it. But the game has evolved beyond that.
happyguy49
12/08/16 05:18 AM
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There aren't any modifications to Pilot Skill Rolls based on unit weight that I am aware of, but there are rules in the new books that make it even harder to avoid falling if you've taken even more damage. From my Tac Ops PDF page 23

"For every 20 Damage Points a unit takes, it receives a +1 modifier. For example, a unit that takes 40 to 59 Damage Points receives a +2 modifier, a unit that takes 60 to 79 Damage Points receives a +3 modifier, and so on."

(If you start using many or all of the new optional rules it has the potential to make your home game a LOT more complicated; beware.)


Edited by happyguy49 (12/08/16 05:44 AM)
ghostrider
06/13/17 02:07 AM
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Not sure if they changed this in the newer rules, but an IS xl engine is destroyed with 3 hits?
I am talking about salvaging it, not wiether it removes the mech from the game. I know vehicles are removed after one hit, but not sure if that destroys the engine in salvage as well.
ghostrider
08/18/17 02:04 AM
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Had a few questions come up, and figured someone here would have an answer.

Does a mechs gyro consist of spinning wheels?
If so, do they stop when the mech is powered down?

I thought about it as a dropship the unit was in crashed, and several mechs were prone or in an odd position when they were started.
We did not know if the gyros would say the odd position was upright, or if you had to shut down and restart once they were upright.
We used penalties in the piloting of the mechs when the enemy showed up, as few wanted to shut down the mechs to reset the gyros. This also meant movement was nerfed, as trying to keep a mech upright, when it says you are on your front because it started on it's back is difficult to deal with.
phobos101
08/21/17 08:19 AM
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Hello, First post here, but I think I can weigh in on your Gyro question, Ghostrider, as I have some experience working on ship gyros in real life.

So From the Battletech Tech manual, the Battlemech Gyro has two parts.
The first part is the balance sensor. This could be a spinning mass (unlikely, as these are looking pretty dated in 2017), laser ring, or a few other types. Generally if a large, military grade gyro, such as those used in ships has been off for a while, they will need to be calibrated, which includes manually inputting which way is north, which way is up, and giving it time to settle. this can take anywhere from a half hour to a few hours. I think this would be especially true after space travel, when the gyro would be calibrated for another planet's conditions, and has probably been powered down for an extended period of time.

The second part is the force generating mechanism. This is described as consisting of a set of spinning flywheels, which are braked in order to obtain what Newton would call an "equal or opposite reaction" to maintain the Mech's balance. Importantly, in order to work properly, this reaction wheel system requires accurate input from the balance sensor. This means that if the Techs and pilots have not had time to follow the complete start up procedure, or have been forced to input some less than perfect parameters in order to get moving before the arrival of enemies, then yes, the Mech's ability to move and balance may be negatively affected, at least until Techs have time to get the Mech on level ground, give it an accurate bearing for true north, and give the electronics time to warm up and settle.

I hope this sheds some light on the matter.
ghostrider
06/17/18 03:08 AM
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Can some explain to me why fusion engine vehicles need shielding?
Supposedly, there is no radiation from the engine itself.
The engine itself would be shielded in the first place. Otherwise, mechs would be pumping out emissions while being paraded in towns around the IS.
Well something other then the developers put it in to make vehicles less of a threat.
ghostrider
06/17/18 10:20 PM
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Another question came up.
What does a lithium battery for jumpships weigh?

The discussion on how they install them was brought up, but more interesting is where do the jumpships get the weight to install what is thought to be a multi ton battery system. A warship can removed a few weapons, but without a redesign of jumpships, there isn't much other then losing docking collars that would explain how it is done.
Retry
06/18/18 12:53 AM
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L-F batteries weigh 1% of the jumpship's/warship's mass.
ghostrider
06/18/18 01:49 AM
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So what do they give up to compensate for the extra weight?

The idea of refitting the jumpships already in operation came up, and we are having issues figuring it out.
Station keeping thrusters would have to be updated.

Which need to be asked.
Did they redesign the jumpships to have the L-F batteries on them if the customer wants them?

I will assume they would still build the old models no matter what. The price being the reason as commercial interests do not need to double jump.
ghostrider
06/22/18 01:31 PM
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The question of nukes being used against ships is up, and the idea of them being used against spacestations came up in a conversation outside of this board.

As nukes only do one capital point, how effective are they against those very stations?
The stories of the history of the IS, including the League, suggested nukes were used to wipe out most space stations, including habitats. This sounds a bit contradicting.
The only reason we could think of at this time was it sounded cooler then using other weapons.

It would have been easier to use the other missiles to destroy those stations, and even same ammo by using the energy naval weapons.

Maybe someone could shed some light on this.
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