His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/17/15 04:11 PM
172.56.20.160
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What are the current rules where infantry interacts with battle mechs?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Firestarter
01/17/15 04:28 PM
24.94.45.124
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Yeah they die.
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Firestarter
01/17/15 04:28 PM
24.94.45.124
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Sorry thats not really an answer I should not have posted that.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/17/15 05:48 PM
172.56.21.219
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Quote:
Firestarter writes:
Yeah they die.
I dont think battlemechs are that easy for infantry to defeat!
There has been some comments here about that infantry not being so easy for mechs to kill anymore but I don't know the current rules since I dont have the latest rules books.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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KamikazeJohnson
01/17/15 06:29 PM
24.114.25.18
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There's a chart in Total Warfare which outlines the damage done by each type of weapon. Small and Medium Lasers now do 1 dmg, Pulse Lasers do 2 additional dmg. Heavy weapons like PPCs and AC/20s can do 3-4 dmg. Pretty much only MGs, Flamers, and Small Pulse Laser do significant damage.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
01/17/15 08:48 PM
75.80.239.165
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So basically all the battles that had infantry in the old day would have turned out different with the new rules. A mech like an awesome would never be able to defeat an infantry company in heavy woods. And even worse city fighting.
I didn't know the damage ranges, but several times it was mentioned that they made infantry hard to beat with anything energy weapons equipped. Even an LBX cannon doesn't do much against them.
This would seem to imply you would have to destroy a city or sent in your own infantry to take it. Your mechs and tanks would be nothing more then targets.
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KamikazeJohnson
01/17/15 10:24 PM
24.114.25.18
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
So basically all the battles that had infantry in the old day would have turned out different with the new rules. A mech like an awesome would never be able to defeat an infantry company in heavy woods. And even worse city fighting.
I didn't know the damage ranges, but several times it was mentioned that they made infantry hard to beat with anything energy weapons equipped. Even an LBX cannon doesn't do much against them.
This would seem to imply you would have to destroy a city or sent in your own infantry to take it. Your mechs and tanks would be nothing more then targets.
Just make sure a suitable portion of your force is equipped with MGs and SPLs. It is unfortunate that the rules change means that many canon events now strain believability...Infantry are now far tougher and more dangerous than is stated or implied by...well, pretty much any BT writings...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/18/15 02:09 AM
172.56.10.212
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Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:
Infantry are now far tougher and more dangerous than is stated or implied by...well, pretty much any BT writings...
As it should be. I never liked the rules where a mech could wipe out hundreds of infantrymen within minutes.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
01/18/15 05:10 AM
75.80.239.165
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Honestly, the entire history of the innersphere would be different now. There were so many times that simple militia would have done more damage to an attacker, that they would not have been able to advance without repairs. The whole kurita drive into davion would have turned out different.
And this is not saying anything about their rct's. And scenrio packs like infantry being tossed against the invading clans.
I do agree ones heavy armor for infantry came out they should not have died that easily, but honestly. A single laser should cut thru flesh and bone without a problem when it destroys armor that was meant to handle the abuse.
And mechs like the urban mech are useless against infantry. A single platoon of 28 men would destroy and urbanmech. The urban mech doing a whole 2 points of damage, vs the 7 to 14 points for the infantry. And that would be foot infantry. Motorized or jump would kill it quicker.
Partisan or rebel units would actually make mech warriors afraid to enter forests and such to search for them. Merc units would not have been so hot to do it either. I would love for those in charge to refight their battles with the new rules and see just how different the innersphere would be, and how much the clans would have lost instead of rolling over the innersphere with only infantry defenses. The elementals would have been used a hell of a lot more.'
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/18/15 06:52 AM
172.56.11.65
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All they would have to do is say that the mechs had supporting infantry and that the mechwarriors got all the glory in the battles and that the infantries roll was just out right ignored.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Cray
01/18/15 05:24 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:
Infantry are now far tougher and more dangerous than is stated or implied by...well, pretty much any BT writings...
I disagree. Every appearance of infantry in novels and BattleCorps fiction had them surviving impossible odds whereas pre-Total Warfare rules would turn entire platoons into pink mist in a couple of shots of any BFG. The classic Gray Death Legion trilogy is a good example where infantry died at the speed of plot, not the speed of rules. TW brought the infantry death rate into line with fiction.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (01/18/15 05:27 PM)
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KamikazeJohnson
01/18/15 09:38 PM
207.161.146.219
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Quote:
Cray writes:
Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:
Infantry are now far tougher and more dangerous than is stated or implied by...well, pretty much any BT writings...
I disagree. Every appearance of infantry in novels and BattleCorps fiction had them surviving impossible odds whereas pre-Total Warfare rules would turn entire platoons into pink mist in a couple of shots of any BFG. The classic Gray Death Legion trilogy is a good example where infantry died at the speed of plot, not the speed of rules. TW brought the infantry death rate into line with fiction.
But in the examples you're referring to, you'tr dealing with "Hero" characters, those who routinely "survive impossible odds"...it's what makes them worth writing about. I was referring to the millions of nameless, faceless schmucks who get mown down by the battalion every time they so much as smell a 'Mech, known to history only as Battle statistics. Ok, so I can't get specific here, due to my shamefully limited reading, but I recall some of the older rulebooks and sourcebooks talking about the relative weakness of Infantry on the battlefield.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
01/18/15 11:23 PM
75.80.239.165
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Most militia were created to slow down an enemy in order to bring in the defenders mechs, sometimes from off world or even out of system.
Most mechs enjoyed engaging infantry due to their relative lack of firepower and they die quickly. With the newer rules, it is VERY possible a mech like a spider would die when fighting infantry that it could not keep it's distance from, suce as heavy woods.
As I said with the rct's The new rules would allow the infantry to be better then tanks, and even rival the 'all mighty' battle mechs. Crits wouldn't be removed from vehicles or even lessened, but with this, infantry would annihilate alot of main battle tanks like the dreaded demolisher. The ontos would fall pretty easily as well, since it might do a whole 8 points if all 8 medium lasers hit. Wow.
Both tanks make the 'kings' of the battlefield sweat when spotted, even though they might be out of range and can't do much.
If I recall someone stating it, missles aren't much more effective, meaning the srm carrier would probably die from an infantry platoon without much of a problem.
And Cray. Novels do not follow rules most of the time. They seem to run more of the rpg version of the game that allows a single infantry man to damage a mech, were last I checked, the rules did not allow it. Using the gdl as an example. In days of heros, alex tagets the arm of a battle master. No targeting computers on his mech, but hits with both arm mounted medium lasers. How is this possible, when the battle master was moving? Also, most novels have the mech pilot being able to make shots with a rifle, not even a sniper could to and take out a mech with a single shot. Not to mention stupid logic that says an srm infantry unit only does 14 points of damage with 28 men in it. Ammo carrying is an excuse but that would mean only 7 soldiers using an srm, and that does not cover the ones they show have 2 missles in it.
Another good example of novels obliterating the rules would be cassie southern from camachies caballeros. Single handedly she takes out a locust. Not the fact the mg's should rip her up before she gets close, or the medium laser doesn't vaporize her at range, but she stops and waves to get the pilot to follow her. Nothing in the rules would come close to explaining how the mech didn't make a pink mist out of her.
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ghostrider
01/18/15 11:28 PM
75.80.239.165
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Hell, Kai Allard, someone that never had elemental armor training until he was forced to join up with the jade falcons during comstars operation scorpian. He used it better then those that had been using it for 20 plus years. This is clan warriors we are talking about. Even with their skills sliding, that would be like me jumping into a combat fighter and out performing the trainers without know much of the controls.
They make good stories, but none of it based in the rules of the game.
Hell, the rules don't really tell you how to evade the enemy when you eject. That should be run as a single infantry unit, being up to the enemy wether you leave the field alive or not. Or even free or captured.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/19/15 12:27 AM
172.56.40.130
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Well since a single infantryman can take out a M1A2 main battle tank with a TOW missile I have no problem with 28 infantrymen taking out a mech or tank.
You don't defend your tank with the main gun from enemy infantry troops. You defend it from enemy infantry troops with your own infantry troops.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
01/19/15 02:39 AM
75.80.239.165
|
The point is, the game went from a demolisher wiping out infantry units with a volley to now wasting every last shot and not being able to kill one. Not all units have infantry with them, and honestly an assault that doesn't intend to hold ground probably won't.
Now with vehicle crits it is possible the a single rifleman could destroy a tank with one shot. Unlikely, but possible. That same rifleman has less chance, though a small one to wipe out a mech as well. It should not be anywhere as routine as the newer rules suggest.
The issue is when dealing with weapons that are designed to rip apart metal plates and such, should do scare damage to someone in even flak armor. The elemental armor from the clans changed that. A simple quick sweep of a laser should kill more infantry then a single person. Even a small laser. Novels are canon supposedly, but there were a few to suggest an anti personal mode to energy weapons that pulsed the normal lasers as a lower power setting to do just that. I believe is was in the fedcom civil war for one of them.
I am saying the whole history of the innersphere would be very different had they had these rules in effect when they came out with 3025 items. More then a few scenario packs had infantry in them, and they relied on them dieing quickly from the bad boys with energy weapons. Overheating an awesome to kill a single infantry platoon is rediculous.
Now, when the tank fires back, does it kill more then one person in a spread out unit? The main gun, not the machine guns.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/19/15 11:30 AM
172.56.10.198
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Mech and vehicle weapons are designed to do massive amounts of damage in small concentrated spots to penetrate hardened armor plating. That kind of damage does not do much to large numbers of small bags of hamburger spread out all over the place.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
01/19/15 08:37 PM
75.80.239.165
|
I understand that. Problem is they went to far the opposite direction. How many infantry die when a battleship shell goes off in their area? Explosives are supposed to be effective against lightly armored targets. I don't mind the gauss rifle killing one maybe 2 soldiers since it is basically a singe bullet shot.
Auto cannons are supposed to fire a burst of rounds and with the 'scatter' from the recoil do more damage to infantry. Or so goes the theory on why ultra cannons have issues.
I would think they could be akin to a large slow firing machine gun.
I agree that it should not kill like it used to.
Energy weapons are different on how they do damage. I do not see why you couldn't just sweep the beams across the field to kill infantry. As I said, they are not carrying battle mech armor on them, so would not need to have the length of time needed to kill them like a mech would.
And that is not even saying anything about splash damage from missiles, and even cannon fire.
Artillery has no problems, yet isn't the cannon ammo the same type? Just doesn't go as far?
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/20/15 09:03 AM
172.56.16.66
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Lasers fire a very powerful and very short burst of energy that is why it only kills one solder. Now pulse lasers fires mutable bursts of lower powered energy that is why it can kill more infantrymen. It has to do with the length of time the laser is actually actively firing.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
01/20/15 08:08 PM
75.80.239.165
|
Setting a lower power output would allow the laser to fire longer. But as I said, several of the novels have stated there is an anti infantry setting to them, allowing for use against more then just one person.
Without anything like this, the entire canon history of the innersphere would not be as it is today. Most units being used are mech forces for assault with tanks being used as back up. In a city, with a regiment of intantry running around, even an assault company would fail to take it. They would fall back with heavy losses do to the simple fact that mg's aren't really standard issue. Flamers tend to be on lighter mechs. Though it may explain why the original canon mechs tended to have more then later models.
The new rules swings the imbalance to the other side.
And trying to say that infantry units are on the edges of the hex, well that is using the rules against themselves. I would say that 2 separate infantry units adjacent to each other on the borders are one clumped unit since I say they are in the middle of a new hex pattern to avoid cheating. But that is going too far the other way.
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Retry
01/24/15 10:45 PM
76.7.225.145
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I'd expect a city defended by a regiment of infantry to be difficult to take over, considering that a regiment consists of roughly one thousand men, or ~40 BT infantry platoons. Big walking things are poor at securing places with little doors, and anti-mech weaponry frequently isn't ideal for non-mech units.(Not exclusively, ofc. See HAGs, LB-X ACs, AP gauss, Vee-scaled plasma weaponry, frag missiles, and all artillery weapons.) If infantry is common, powerful, or both, anti-infantry and infantry-defense capabilities SHOULD be a design consideration for a mech.
Infantry in battletech are kind of weird, in the sense that their weapons are simultaneously powerful and pathetic. A relatively small number of autorifle equipped infantrymen can rip through an assault mech if it foolishly walks into their path, which is hilarious considering that it's a small-arms weapon. But, at the same time, said weapon has a range in BT of under one hundred meters. This is acceptably low for targeting armored units like tanks and mechs, as such small bullets will rapidly lose kinetic energy as they travel and probably shouldn't do significant damage as such for balance and logic purposes. The problem is that they retain the nerfed range brackets for lighter class units such as low armor grade support vehicles, exoskeleton suits, and other infantry platoons, meaning their MECH-Maulers have a humorous effective range that rivals the rifled musket.
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Karagin
01/25/15 12:19 PM
70.118.139.48
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Lets' stop right there, you guys are thinking of line units only, regiments and battalions have three to four line units aka the combat side and one/two units (called companies or troops) that are headquarters and support aka the fuelers, the medics, the mechanics the supply folks etc...so not all of that thousand soldiers are going to be fighting.
On top of that you forgetting that anti-mech/tank weapons are not included with the normal BT infantry setup, it's added in and thus not that common.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/26/15 01:40 PM
172.56.7.120
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A regiment should have no problem at all taking out unaccompanied mechs or tanks within a city. Not with infantry rifles but with things like satchel charges, grenades, rockets launchers, RPGs, high power rifles, and so on and so forth.
Things like the Panzerfaust, Bazooka, RPG-7, LAW, and other such weapons have been quite affective at anti armor attacks within cities. They take little in the way of extensive training in their use and are extremely cheap to supply to troops. Under a 100m such weapons have a 95% chance of hitting a slow moving target when one knows how to use it and has the time to properly aim the weapon. Within a city few armor assets can keep a range farther than 100m from possible hiding spots of troops that might have such weapons.
The best way to take a city is to send in your infantry and hold back your mechs to take out hardened well defended targets as they are found by your own infantry.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/11/15 02:33 PM
172.56.10.68
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Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:
There's a chart in Total Warfare which outlines the damage done by each type of weapon. Small and Medium Lasers now do 1 dmg, Pulse Lasers do 2 additional dmg. Heavy weapons like PPCs and AC/20s can do 3-4 dmg. Pretty much only MGs, Flamers, and Small Pulse Laser do significant damage.
What damage does MGs, Flamers, and SPLs do to infantry? I don't own TWF to look it up.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
02/11/15 07:15 PM
76.89.120.217
|
I would like to know the spl's myself. As it looks like, all pulse lasers do 3 points. It would be beyond stupid if the small laser does more then the larger ones.
I know you don't have any control over it, so don't think that was directed at you.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/12/15 12:20 AM
172.56.38.153
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I can see why all pulse lasers would do the same amount of damage to infantry no matter the weapons size. There is only so much area that the pulse laser can cover but there is more power behind each laser pulse as the weapon gets bigger.
Look it this way say a small pulse laser would put a hole the size of a dime through a person. That would be quite fatal so kills the trooper. Now a large pulse laser can put a hole the size of the persons head into the trooper again quite fatal. Both attacks are fatal its just that the large pulse laser leaves far less of the body to be scraped up to be put into the body bag. The bigger the weapon the more over kill there is to the person that was hit.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
02/12/15 03:44 AM
76.89.120.217
|
I was referring to the small pulse laser. For some reason, it sounds like it does more damage to infantry then the other ones. This would not make sense. I guess I will have to look in the novels to see where it stated several mechwarriors were using anti personnel mode on the energy weapons.
But anyways, this last bit was about the small pulse.
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CarcerKango
02/12/15 12:51 PM
64.251.51.246
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Well, the Small Pulse I imagine would have a higher fire rate due to the lower amount of power required, and the old Mechwarrior games seem to support this...
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TigerShark
02/12/15 01:18 PM
12.130.166.32
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Infantry are far too strong in modern BT. A single Clan platoon armed with Mauser IIC rifles (what is that, 28 damage/turn max? Average of 15?) can take out any IS 'Mech ever made if they have a decent motive system (jump or mechanized). Unless you specifically build your scenario to deal with these platoons, you're borked.
This isn't even beginning to mention stuff like squad weapons like Heavy Lasers (12 hex range), squad PPC, etc. or puffing up their Anti-Mech skills to a 3 or 2, where they can pop a 'Mech's leg with the greatest of ease.
And all this for the low, low price of under 300 BV. Hell, you could take a 3/4 Mauser 960 Jump Platoon (around 260 BV) and do 19 damage/turn with a 1/1/3 movement profile. And that's in 2750!
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Akalabeth
02/12/15 04:29 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
I was referring to the small pulse laser. For some reason, it sounds like it does more damage to infantry then the other ones. This would not make sense. I guess I will have to look in the novels to see where it stated several mechwarriors were using anti personnel mode on the energy weapons.
But anyways, this last bit was about the small pulse.
Small Pulse laser does 2d6 damage to infantry. Same as the machine gun.
Flames do 4d6
Light and Heavy Machine gun do 1d6 and 3d6 respectively.
Battletech doesn't make sense. It's a ruleset of exceptions. The SPL does extra damage to infantry because the weapon is normally beyond useless. So it's given an exception to make it worthwhile.
You guys really ought to just pick up the rules so y ou know what's actually happening with the rules and can discuss the finer points that way. The PDF Total Warfare is only 15 bucks on drivethru RPG. Price of a lunch with beer.
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ghostrider
02/12/15 11:47 PM
76.89.120.217
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Thought normal mgs did 4-16. I guess the changed that as well.
Now why the hell would the small pulse do more damage then other pulse lasers?
It just seems stupid to true and balance crap, then throw in something completely out of whack because of some garbage.
As for buying the newer rule set. First of pdf files for 15 bucks is crap. If your system dies, such as the hard drive on my last one did, you lost your info. Second, having to boot up or spend another 20 bucks printing it out is garbage.
Third, not everyone has the funds for this to begin with. I know 15 bucks isn't a lot, but when you don't have money for lunch, well you get the point. And not everyone likes beer.
And fourth, some of us got tired of them pushing the next set of rules before the current ones were finished. I stop buying new rule sets with mechwarriors 3rd edition saying everything was going to be changed in 4th edition, coming soon. Saw that only after I got it home and started reading it. 20-25 bucks to see they were throwing the rule set out yet again.
This is why I stopped buying other game sets, like D&D. Hated how they changed alot of how the game is played.
And using the rules we like is fine, but how do you deal with things here if you do not understand the rules?
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Retry
02/13/15 12:51 AM
76.7.225.145
|
Quote:
TigerShark writes:
Infantry are far too strong in modern BT. A single Clan platoon armed with Mauser IIC rifles (what is that, 28 damage/turn max? Average of 15?) can take out any IS 'Mech ever made if they have a decent motive system (jump or mechanized). Unless you specifically build your scenario to deal with these platoons, you're borked.
This isn't even beginning to mention stuff like squad weapons like Heavy Lasers (12 hex range), squad PPC, etc. or puffing up their Anti-Mech skills to a 3 or 2, where they can pop a 'Mech's leg with the greatest of ease.
And all this for the low, low price of under 300 BV. Hell, you could take a 3/4 Mauser 960 Jump Platoon (around 260 BV) and do 19 damage/turn with a 1/1/3 movement profile. And that's in 2750!
You're comparing top-of-the-line, the absolute best of the best possible Clan infantry technologies, and comparing it to IS mechs with considerably inferior technologies.
Their anti-mech skills have a poor chance of success, one which rapidly drops off as the infantry battle group begins to take damage. Simply getting close enough to pull one attempt off is incredibly risky, even in city and other cumbersome environments. Doing so successfully is simply a crapshoot, and while they can be extremely helpful at times, the difficulty of pulling anything off at all completely offsets the advantages you get.
The absolute maximum range an IS squad can have is 6/12/18, and it requires at least an 8 man squad size to wield the ER Heavy Laser. AFAIK no standard IS platoon can actually wield it due to the 8 man limitation. So the absolute best you can wield is a normal heavy laser, which is powerful with a 5/10/15 range bracket but the encumbering armament set will slow down infantry squads without mechanized movement(which take half damage from small arms but double from mech-grade weaponry).
Various technologies exists that minimize the effect of PBIs making them either highly splatterable or little more than annoying fleas.
Ferro-Lamellor Armor:A clan armor type that reduces the damage of all weapons by 1 point every 5 points, reducing damage by AT LEAST one per cluster hit. With the way PBIs resolve their damage, they are some of the hardest hit units and have their damage, at minimum, halved by FL.
Artillery:In both artillery pieces and cannons variety, the range and splash damage of these weapons simply murders any infantry not in a building, in which case the artillery simply levels the buildings.
Plasma-variety weapons:Basically supercharged flamers, both the plasma rifle and cannon provides one hundred kilograms of death at ranges that "light" infantry (no secondary weapons, at most have ranges of 3/6/9) cannot reach, and only the absolutely most capable "heavy" infantry (secondary weapons, maximum 7/14/21 range for one of the clan lasers) can slightly exceed. Generally takes two hits at most to absolutely decimate a PBI platoon, only one to render it extremely crippled. The plasma cannon in particular deals no damage to mechs, meaning you can shower a swarmed ally mech to rid it of the small PBI fleas with little side effects for your mech... not that the infantry are likely to succeed in swarming in the first place.
Tiny Gauss Rifles:AP Gauss and Magshot are basically anti-infantry gauss rifles that have the range of the best "light" infantry while being lightweight and still very deadly to said infantry, especially if mounted on a BA squad.
Alternative ammo:Frag Missiles for LRMs cannot be outranged by any infantry unit without towed guns, and devastate said infantry on a single hit. Standard Autocannons can use flechettes that similarly devastate infantry. The simple ammo swap works on many IS Introtech mechs when the more advanced options are not available.
A-Pod:Anti-infantry pods can be activated against infantry in your own hex. They don't deal much damage themselves, but the infantry that you kill can make it considerably more difficult for swarming infantry to successfully swarm in the first place, and decreases their firepower in general permanently.
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TigerShark
02/13/15 03:32 AM
104.49.175.97
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Sorry, but the Mauser IIC is not "the best of the best technology." It's the standard rifle for Clan infantry and Solahma. You also have things like the Federated Long Rifle and such. If you think Infantry weapons aren't strong, you're welcome to try them out in a MM game. Without stacking your army in preparation with a full Lance of Anti-Infantry or something, you'll lose badly.
Also, if you're opening up the realm of Advanced-level tech, then Infantry have access to IR, Sneak and Mimetic camo, making them incredibly hard to hit. You say Ferro-Lamellor, well, that opened up a whole other door.
So do try a game.  I'll bring, say, a Company of Infantry + a few Mechs or VTOLs or whatever.
Edited by TigerShark (02/13/15 03:38 AM)
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ghostrider
02/13/15 03:48 AM
76.89.120.217
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Might have to set the scenario better then that tiger. Retry is one that plays mm, but with his alt timeline units. The hardened armored lpl carring 100 tons beast with ecm/cews items and battle armor battalions.
Curious, but when did they so clans use the mauser 2? Old data, and the clan invasion didn't have the information in it.
And retry, you are thinking straight infantry just running out the swarm or kneecap a mech. Done right, they will have alot of little traps that would increase their chances, such as pit traps and hidden bunkers and such.
Yes there is anti infantry weapons that can be used, but the key here is, do you have it when you need it?
Mot scenarios involve mech against infantry. Having your own infantry with you makes it easier. But most of the canon ones don't give you that ability.
With the way they nerfed infantry, it would almost be better to play them then mech pilots.
In some ways, it would be more exciting.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/13/15 07:40 AM
172.56.5.201
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It sounds like they devoted a couple of dozen pages of the new books just to infantry for it to get as complicated as your making it out.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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wolf_lord_30
02/13/15 09:28 AM
166.216.165.91
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It does sound like that
. I guess they're trying to go 40k on everyone:P
I remember when citytech first came out. The infantry had access to the equivalent of a mech mg, small laser or srm 2. They were used to help defend cities,but other than that, they were toast. I remember using them just because I liked the pictures of the regular infantry. But other than being there to harass a mech, they weren't good. I could see why some people would want infantry to be better than that,but come on now. A squad of 21 guys vs a 30 foot tall armored monstrosity that moves faster than them and their smallest weaponry can blow them clean in half, while your own fire bounces off it ineffectually. Yeah, I would rather be in my mech laughing at the poor guy trying to play hero as he desperately runs towards me with a satchel charge.
Yes, there have been instances of infantry destroying mechs. Traps come to mind, but not often will they have time to set them up properly and they will still probably lose a few guys at least. I think I read about it in one of the Grey Death novels. Mechs move at a decent speed overall and have access to dropships. Those infantry better know where the mechs are really coming from and traveling to. Satchel charges work too, but they have to get close enough to the mech without being shot, so hopefully there is a Stalker of your own occupying the other mechs attention. I'd even hope for an Urbanmech at that point to draw fire away from the infantry.
And then there was the game Battletroops. Focused on the infantry against other infantry. But they had rules for taking on mechs. Even though the cover had a couple of guys standing over a smoldering Archer, when you actually tried that, those 2 medium lasers in the front and 2 in the back were pretty dangerous.
So if you really want to destroy an enemy's mech, bring your own. It was tagged as the game of armored combat and mechs are the kings of the battlefield. Now maybe they've changed the rules a bit, and maybe I should get current material, but after 3058, FASA ends and I liked the FASA game. I have played MegaMek and infantry can be hard to hit sometimes, but I didn't run into any mech killers out there. I ignored around 5 squads or so and vaporized 3 when I was finally free to do so, meaning no mechs were around to shoot that turn. Yes, they hurt the mechs, but not enough to cause for concern.
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ghostrider
02/13/15 12:12 PM
76.89.120.217
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The way wolf lord is describing them, is the typical infantry.
Now alot of people take it as the infantry in the grey death legion, some of the lancer rcts, and spec ops are typical on the battle field. They are not.
Satchels seemed to be the favorite way to knee cap a mech. But that was bolt from cover, plant charge and get out. The only novel person that didn't have something else distracting the pilot was cassie southorn from camanche cabelleros. Even though it was interesting reading, it was too much for one person to do.
And with that, they talk about emergency codes to open cockpits from the out side. Now wouldn't you want your anti mech infantry to know those codes and possibly kill the pilots keeping the mech intact?
I am not saying there shouldn't be ways infantry can take down a mech, but it should not be as simple as the newer rules say.
Anti mech infantry is rare and expensive. The newer rules don't make them that way.
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Akalabeth
02/13/15 04:07 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
TigerShark writes:
Sorry, but the Mauser IIC is not "the best of the best technology." It's the standard rifle for Clan infantry and Solahma.
So why are official Clan Foot Infantry armed with Gauss SMGs?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Foot_Infantry
The Mauser IIC is only depicted on heavy and assault infantry. Both of which are described as being compromised of Elemental phenotypes.
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
As for buying the newer rule set. First of pdf files for 15 bucks is crap. If your system dies, such as the hard drive on my last one did, you lost your info. Second, having to boot up or spend another 20 bucks printing it out is garbage.
Third, not everyone has the funds for this to begin with. I know 15 bucks isn't a lot, but when you don't have money for lunch, well you get the point. And not everyone likes beer.
And fourth, some of us got tired of them pushing the next set of rules before the current ones were finished. I stop buying new rule sets with mechwarriors 3rd edition saying everything was going to be changed in 4th edition, coming soon. Saw that only after I got it home and started reading it. 20-25 bucks to see they were throwing the rule set out yet again.
This is why I stopped buying other game sets, like D&D. Hated how they changed alot of how the game is played.
And using the rules we like is fine, but how do you deal with things here if you do not understand the rules?
Well most of your discussions seem to revolve around technology that you don't have the rules for. Would it not be easier to simply get the rules?
Total Warfare has been the rules for some 6-7 years now. You can re-download PDFs from a place like DrivethruRPG as they're updated or if you lost your own backup. As for printing it out, well you can just reference it on a tablet or PC.
DriveThruRPG has in the past had sales for the rules PDFs at 5 bucks a pop.
If you want a print copy, maybe you can find a second hand one on sale. I would only get Total Warfare and Tactical Ops. Tech Manual is needlessly large and a waste of time. ATOW only for RPG players and Strategic Ops doesn't have enough base-game rules to justify the cost in my opinion.
Edited by Akalabeth (02/13/15 04:13 PM)
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ghostrider
02/13/15 04:13 PM
76.89.120.217
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When did the clans start arming their non elemental infantry with decent weapons?
Infantry especially solahma were disgraced warriors from other fields. They were meant to do nothing more then soak up some enemy fire, especially ammo before the main engagement of the good units.
Elementals were the best equipped infantry style troops.
But I can see them adapting since the innersphere had so many infantry units, and some of them did decent against he clans themselves.
Though this is the first I have heard of gauss smgs.
Wouldn't be the first time they added in something like that.
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Akalabeth
02/13/15 04:16 PM
64.251.81.66
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Some clans, particularly Ghost Bear and Hell's Horses likely use infantry more than most so they're better equipped.
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TigerShark
02/16/15 05:24 AM
104.49.175.97
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Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
Quote:
TigerShark writes:
Sorry, but the Mauser IIC is not "the best of the best technology." It's the standard rifle for Clan infantry and Solahma.
So why are official Clan Foot Infantry armed with Gauss SMGs?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Foot_Infantry
It says "ad hoc" right in the title of the infantry. So unless most of the Clan infantry are put together for specific missions (an "ad hoc" basis), then those are not the standard, Clan infantry.
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TigerShark
02/16/15 05:27 AM
104.49.175.97
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
When did the clans start arming their non elemental infantry with decent weapons?
Infantry especially solahma were disgraced warriors from other fields. They were meant to do nothing more then soak up some enemy fire, especially ammo before the main engagement of the good units.
Elementals were the best equipped infantry style troops.
But I can see them adapting since the innersphere had so many infantry units, and some of them did decent against he clans themselves.
Though this is the first I have heard of gauss smgs.
Wouldn't be the first time they added in something like that.
Because the Clans abhor waste? Because they're not going to create a "worthless, barely functional rifle" factory. These weapons need to come from somewhere and they come from Clan factories. The Clans don't make factories for trash. Everything has a purpose.
That's also assuming that all Clans view infantry as a waste. The Steel Vipers only allow Trueborns as infantry. So the question would be, "do we throw away sacred, Trueborn blood with suicide weapons?" Probably not.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/16/15 10:28 AM
172.56.0.169
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I was looking at http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_Submachine_Gun and found that it brakes laws of nature.
It says that it uses subsonic (slower than the speed of sound) ammunition for silent firing. But then it says that it can defeat most personal body armor. I'm sorry but you cant have it both ways. You cant have subsonic ammo that has the kinetic force that can push its way through hardened body armor.
I am assuming this is another case of the rule, "You have to throw logic out the window because this is Battle Tech game."
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
02/16/15 11:48 AM
76.89.120.217
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when they first were introduced, clans did not care about old, flushed out warriors, which their non elemental infantry was. Most of the warriors themselves were looking to die gloriously in battle. Wasting top of the line weapons on units meant to waste the enemies ammo and generally annoy the enemy, is not something they would consider.
Now you say they made the weapons for their infantry, but there is a simple way of getting them the weapons. Caches. Usiing still functioning weapons from the past.
Now the point of the Steel Vipers does bring up the fact that there are exceptions. Hell's Horses use alot of vehicles, while the Snow Ravens have a heavier fighter presence.
Now take a step back and look at how they view those infantry. They failed as mech, aero and elelementals. So they already have a large taint on them, that would cause their genetics to be put in the do not use section.
Only because of ego are the allowed to still serve. Most 'real' ie trueborms, don't want a freeborn touching anything they use like food. They don't want them around.
But as you shown, their are exceptions.
As for the gauss smg, I thought for a weapon to be a gauss it projected hypersonic rounds. So that might be another bending of the laws of physics, or is this just definition?
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/16/15 12:43 PM
172.56.34.89
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No you can have subsonic gauss weapons. They are utterly pointless but it is possible to have a gauss round going that slow.
Most gauss weapons would be supersonic and not hypersonic. You would need to have a very long barrel and very powerful magnets to accelerate the round to mack 5 to be at hypersonic speeds which most gauss weapons cant devote that much weight or power to. Also supersonic speed would be good enough for most uses for a gauss weapons. About the only time where you would need hypersonic or High-hypersonic speed for a gauss weapon is with the miles distances between combatants that your dealing with in outer space. Hypersonic to High-Hypersonic is from a mile per secant to five miles per secant.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/16/15 12:44 PM
76.7.225.145
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Quote:
TigerShark writes:
Sorry, but the Mauser IIC is not "the best of the best technology." It's the standard rifle for Clan infantry and Solahma. You also have things like the Federated Long Rifle and such. If you think Infantry weapons aren't strong, you're welcome to try them out in a MM game. Without stacking your army in preparation with a full Lance of Anti-Infantry or something, you'll lose badly.
Also, if you're opening up the realm of Advanced-level tech, then Infantry have access to IR, Sneak and Mimetic camo, making them incredibly hard to hit. You say Ferro-Lamellor, well, that opened up a whole other door.
So do try a game. I'll bring, say, a Company of Infantry + a few Mechs or VTOLs or whatever.
The clans have a considerable number of primary weapons that is not the Mauser IIC, and I have yet to see a single piece of fluff that calls the IIC a standard clan rifle for all infantry units. More frequently, I've seen it referred to as a weapon for elite unarmored infantry units like out-of-suit Elementals. And NEVER have I heard of it being connected to Solahma units.
Regardless of it's usage, it IS the best of the best technology. No other primary weapon deals that much damage at such great ranges.
1.37 damage per rifle at 3/6/9 range. The next most damaging primary weapon is the Mauser 1200 LSS at 1.04 damage per rifle at 2/4/6 range. The Mauser IIC enjoys a nearly 25% damage increase, and a 50% range increase, over the IS's most damaging weapon.
At the 3/6/9 range bracket, the second most damaging primary weapon is... the Mauser IIC w/ Inferno, at .9 damage per rifle. The third most damaging primary weapon at that range bracket is the Radium Sniper Rifle at .36 damage per rifle. The Mauser IIC has nearly three times the firepower of the second best 3/6/9 range bracketed primary weapon.
That, my friend, is the very definition of "Best of the Best". There is a reason that the IIC has almost twice the BR of the next best weapon.
Infantry can be very strong, but in order to be respectable on the modern battlefield they need to have a weapon such as the Mauser IIC, which gives good damage AND range brackets. And then, just having an advanced yet still lightweight weapon for taking out infantry (AP gauss, esp. on battle armor. Plasma Cannons can be attached coaxial to a fusion tank with some sinks to spare. Even standard LRMs and SRMs make real short work of infantry.) will reduce their threat significantly by converting their flesh to jelly, and they're beyond screwed if you do decide to deploy a couple tailor-made counters such as Piranhas.
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Akalabeth
02/16/15 03:25 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
TigerShark writes:
Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
Quote:
TigerShark writes:
Sorry, but the Mauser IIC is not "the best of the best technology." It's the standard rifle for Clan infantry and Solahma.
So why are official Clan Foot Infantry armed with Gauss SMGs?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Foot_Infantry
It says "ad hoc" right in the title of the infantry. So unless most of the Clan infantry are put together for specific missions (an "ad hoc" basis), then those are not the standard, Clan infantry.
Does this unit say ad hoc?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Mechanized_Infantry
Or this?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/AA_Mechanized_Infantry
Or this?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Anti-Infantry
Of the Rifles presented, it's the most prevalent. But being the standard rifle doesn't make it the standard weapon.
The foot infantry article suggests that most foot infantry are solahma and therefore appropriately armed. Dedicated infantry may be better armed but mainly clans are resource poor and lack great equipment, they might be armed similar to the bandit caste infantry at worse.
Ghost Bear. Hell's Horses. Both favour infantry, one has inner sphere leanings. Other clans hold infantry and all non-mech forces in disdain and wouldn't waste the resources.
Edited by Akalabeth (02/16/15 04:21 PM)
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TigerShark
02/17/15 08:20 PM
12.130.166.32
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Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
Does this unit say ad hoc?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Mechanized_Infantry
Or this?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/AA_Mechanized_Infantry
Or this?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Anti-Infantry
Of the Rifles presented, it's the most prevalent. But being the standard rifle doesn't make it the standard weapon.
The foot infantry article suggests that most foot infantry are solahma and therefore appropriately armed. Dedicated infantry may be better armed but mainly clans are resource poor and lack great equipment, they might be armed similar to the bandit caste infantry at worse.
Ghost Bear. Hell's Horses. Both favour infantry, one has inner sphere leanings. Other clans hold infantry and all non-mech forces in disdain and wouldn't waste the resources.
None of those are standard infantry for the Clans. lol You're citing them because they're the only published Clan infantry we've been given, but they are rare or unique variants to a faction.
...Or maybe you honestly think the "Jade Falcon Police" are what gets deployed onto the battlefield during trials?
Edited by TigerShark (02/17/15 08:20 PM)
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Akalabeth
02/17/15 09:06 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
TigerShark writes:
None of those are standard infantry for the Clans. lol You're citing them because they're the only published Clan infantry we've been given, but they are rare or unique variants to a faction.
So you're claiming to know the standard infantry for the clans despite it not being published?
Right. Thanks for the theories, I'll stick with the facts.
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wolf_lord_30
02/17/15 09:25 PM
166.137.244.36
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Actually, they are specialized units. They probably just never wrote down about their conventional infantry. It stated specifically hells horses, ghost bear and jade falcon. Not any other clans, and infantry more unique to those 3. I'm with tigershark on this one. Yeah, you send a police force used to massacring civilians and putting down mild uprisings against mechs and tanks, no, that just wouldn't be wise. Besides they've come out with great pics of infantry for ghost bear. Or was it elementals? Now I don't remember. Anyways, the point of that is they just have infantry and that's that. Not just those 3 specialized units.
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Akalabeth
02/17/15 09:43 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
wolf_lord_30 writes:
Actually, they are specialized units. They probably just never wrote down about their conventional infantry. It stated specifically hells horses, ghost bear and jade falcon. Not any other clans, and infantry more unique to those 3. I'm with tigershark on this one. Yeah, you send a police force used to massacring civilians and putting down mild uprisings against mechs and tanks, no, that just wouldn't be wise. Besides they've come out with great pics of infantry for ghost bear. Or was it elementals? Now I don't remember. Anyways, the point of that is they just have infantry and that's that. Not just those 3 specialized units.
The point is that all of the examples given in the TRO are specialized. None of them are generic clan infantry so to say that generic infantry is equipped with specific equipment is simply theory.
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wolf_lord_30
02/17/15 09:57 PM
166.137.244.36
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I should've reread the posts before commenting earlier. Do the rules say what regular clan infantry are armed with? If it doesn't and just gives you choices then you're right, it is all just theories. But if it doesn't give you a choice, such as riflemen are armed with rifles or jump troops armed with small lasers, you have your answer for what the generic infantry are regularly armed with.
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Akalabeth
02/17/15 10:17 PM
64.251.81.66
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Fact is, clan conventional infantry has been characterized as solahma and exclusively second line for the vast majority of clans. So I would not be surprised if the majority of clan infantry is foot with basic autorifles or similarly substandard equipment.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/17/15 11:16 PM
172.56.31.222
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If I recall what I read in the BT novels standard Clan Solahma Infantry carry something like the Federated Long Rifle.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
02/17/15 11:54 PM
76.89.120.217
|
A good source for what the clans used for infantry units might be the original wolf's dragoons. They had infantry when they came to the innersphere. That may be a sign of what a clan that dealt with infantry in a kinder spot light then clans normally do, would equip them with.
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TigerShark
02/19/15 12:52 AM
104.49.175.97
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Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
Fact is, clan conventional infantry has been characterized as solahma and exclusively second line for the vast majority of clans. So I would not be surprised if the majority of clan infantry is foot with basic autorifles or similarly substandard equipment.
Please cite a source stating that all Clan Infantry are classified as Solahma. Would be interesting to see where this is coming from. AToW has the Mauser 960 as the SLDF's attempt to standardize weaponry and that was continued in Clanspace. But no production details. Doesn't really say either way.
Edited by TigerShark (02/19/15 01:03 AM)
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Akalabeth
02/19/15 06:48 AM
96.49.50.102
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Quote:
TigerShark writes:
Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
Fact is, clan conventional infantry has been characterized as solahma and exclusively second line for the vast majority of clans. So I would not be surprised if the majority of clan infantry is foot with basic autorifles or similarly substandard equipment.
Please cite a source stating that all Clan Infantry are classified as Solahma. Would be interesting to see where this is coming from. AToW has the Mauser 960 as the SLDF's attempt to standardize weaponry and that was continued in Clanspace. But no production details. Doesn't really say either way.
I said they were characterized as solahma not that they were all, 100% solahma.
But if you want something similar:
"Conventional infantry exists among the clans, but the extra-ordinary ability of Elementals has made such infantry units the province of solahma or freeborn warriors ." (FM:Warden p11)
Also bear in mind that in ATOW the Mauser IIC is an Encumbering weapon which weighs 12kg and costs 18,000 cbills. 18,000 cbills, compared to 120 cbills for a Federated Long Rifle. The other clan energy rifles, the ER and the Pulse are a mere 2,000 cbills. This is also more expensive than the mech-mounted ER Small Laser which is 11,000 cbills.
Because the Mauser IIC is encumbering, it means that anyone carrying it will have their movement costs doubled and will become tired more quickly. If they're also exceeding their weight allowance, they will be very encumbered with triple movement costs and fatigued by anything other than walking. There's a reason why 3 of the 5 examples carrying Mausers in 3085 are elemental phenotypes.
If the average strength of a freeborn infantry man is 5 and his encumbrance threshold is therefore 30kg, then carrying a Mauser IIC (12Kg) + Standard Kit (9.5kg) + Satchel Battery or Military Power Pack (2.5 to 5kg) means that he will be very close encumbered by both his weight and the weapon which would make him next to useless. If he's only 4 strength (as the standard mechwarrior presented in the book), he would automatically be over his 20kg limit.
Jump Troops are worse because the jump pack is 30kg and encumbering so anyone with a jump pack and a mauser IIC would be overloaded.
So why exactly would the clans equip their freeborn or washed out soldiers with a weapon which is both extravagantly expensive and will also limit their ability to operate?
If talking exclusively clan energy weapons, a more likely candidate would be the Pulse Laser Rifle which is 2000 cbills, half the weight, and can actually perform burst fire.
Edited by Akalabeth (02/19/15 08:01 AM)
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TigerShark
02/22/15 11:08 PM
104.49.175.97
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...And the "province of solahma and Freeborn" line is instantly negated by Clan Steel Viper. So, since they only use Trueborns, does this fall under the same logic?
While your reasoning is sound, it's based on that line and that line alone. The only info we have on the Mauser IIC is that it, like the 960, was an attempt at standardizing infantry weaponry. If your reasoning is valid, they would not have bothered to upgrade a "solahma weapon" with a Clan-grade rifle and factory (factories? We don't know). The old 960 Assault System could have EASILY been duplicated, just as the Auto Rifles were duplicated.
So why bother making an up-graded version? O.o And why bother making a new factory for it? If it's only going to be used by the Ebon Keshik, that's a huge waste of resources and that's not very Clan. In a similar situation, the Clans put massive resources into upgrading Vehicles, which are seen as "less-than-honorable" tools of combat. Again, if the logic held, the Clans would be fitting vees with IS-grade weapons, not expensive Clan versions.
Fact is we have no canon example of what "standard Clan Infantry" look like, since they probably vary from assignment, from which Clan is fielding the infantry, from whether they're in the Inner Sphere or in Clanspace, what facility they're guarding, etc.
EDIT: You're also forgetting that the Bearhunter is an encumbering weapon and that seems to be slapped onto one of the most expensive and useless BA types possible. So I don't think the Clans give a toss about whether a squad can move well or not.
Edited by TigerShark (02/22/15 11:18 PM)
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ghostrider
02/23/15 03:25 AM
76.89.120.217
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Honestly, for the clans there is no real standard except trueborns are the ONLY people worth a damn. All the rest are servants.
Thought just came to mind. Even the rct's of the federated suns, then federated commonwealth wasn't completely standardize, yet they were probably the closest. Infantry used what ever was available, though guns ran along similar lines.
The federated long rifle is a good example. I am sure each house, and probably each region in their area used local manufacturers, but I doubt they were producing the exact same weapon. This would be like saying every sniper uses the 50 caliber rifle, when police swat teams probably don't. The risk of killing someone behind their target is too great. Not to mention ammunition variants.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/23/15 08:44 AM
172.56.11.12
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In a far more realistic game capturing an enemies ammo dump would be for the most part worthless. Every manufacturer of a type of weapon would make the weapon only be able to use their ammo so only they could supply the ammunition for that weapon unless the state demanded standardization of all ammo from all plants with in their boarders.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
02/23/15 04:38 PM
76.89.120.217
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The is very true to a point. Military commanders are stupid with not allowing their troops to use the enemies weapons against them. You know they will have ammo for their own weapons, while your troops have to go back to base and grab more.
I understand that by not limiting your troops they could very well get scattered and taken down piecemeal, but losing them because they ran out of ammo is much worse.
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