BattleTechWiki talk:Project Planets/Planet Overhaul

Era Specific Data

This is a great idea for a project! Is there any formal consensus on adding time periods to the displayed information, especially for the nearby planets section? With the new handbook series, a lot of the written history has been canonized with really nice maps by Øystein Tvedten. Among the many potential periods not displayed, nearly all Inner Sphere and (near) Periphery planets (excluding the Draconis Combine, which has not been published yet) have faction info for:

The birth of the Star League (2571)

The end of the 1st Succession War (2822)

The end of the 2nd Succession War (2864)

The beginning of the Jihad (3067)

...and this list does not even mention Dark Age dates or maps at the founding of each Great House. The Succession War data may be really vital to add, since borders really change and planets disappear (albeit over the course of decades). I realize this is a huge amount of work if done by hand, but I just though I might ask.--S.gage 02:21, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Eeeeh, I'm afraid you may be a bit disappointed in us, S.gage. We're actually going to be doing away with those massive nearby planet/ownership tables because we know the current ones are as flawed as the coordinates and 2-jump maps also being used. The intention right now is to replace the 2-jump map with a cropped image of one of Øystein's maps, so that neighboring worlds are easily identified in a manner that is recognizable to anyone who has ever seen an official BattleTech map. The coordinates will be using an extrapolated method that matches up with Øystein's maps and the tables are being done awy with because we just don't have the capability to check each planet within 2 jumps and for each period. I'm not ruling out the possibility someone may want to do that work and re-add them in, but the Overhaul is going to clean up all suspicious data and either correct it or remove it.

Ownership is still being worked out: BrokenMnemonic has been doing extensive prep work for the Overhaul by reviewing (and uploading) maps, and then re-writing the Ownership section to reflect more periods of who owned what when. Ideally, we'd use concrete dates to indicate a change in ownership, so the traditional ownership list may make way for a narrative form...but we're still in the early stages on that. So, in that way, we hope to make ownership data more informative and complete.--Rev ^{(talk|contribs)} 11:42, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not disappointed in loosing the 2-jump maps, on the contrary I'm really happy there is a reasonable consensus on what to do with the history of planets on BTW. Ownership can get pretty complicated, so may I propose a solution (one that I don't particularly like but I'll propose anyway)? On worlds with little change in ownership (ex: El Dorado), we could just put the date of ownership change (although by the same token, a planet that never changes hands might be confusing if there is only a founding date...).--S.gage 16:05, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it's much of a secret that many of the initial policies on here I derived directly from Wikipedia, and even now, the admins often refer to existing WP prolicies to help guide BTW. I've been looking at w:Puerto Rico, as an example. As an island, it's changed hands a number of times. Instead of a list of ownership change-overs, the article breaks up the history section into periods of control, which makes sense to me. However, as many (if not most) planets don't have canon histories, just representative maps, these sections could start out quite bare. For example, using your El Dorado) reference (not a true recounting; for example purposes only):

==History==

===Federated Suns===

El Dorado was founded prior to 2750, by which point it fell under the adminstation of the Federated Suns' Draconis March.

===Federated Commonwealth===

The system was incorporated into the Federated Commonwealth in 3040.

===Federated Suns===

The system reverted to the Federated Suns in 3067, upon the absolution of the Commonwealth.

Now, El Dorado, of course, has a lot more information to put in the three respective sections, but many systems won't. However, the presumption is that 'someday' more information will become known and included, and this format will help guide it into the respective location, right? Your comments?--Rev ^{(talk|contribs)} 16:28, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

With all the lost worlds I've been adding in courtesy of the new Handbooks, there are also a lot of worlds out there that have entries like the one for Conwy - which makes for sadly sparse entries. BrokenMnemonic 17:23, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

ETA: You can see a prototype of the kind of local region map I've been playing with on the Joyz entry. BrokenMnemonic 18:14, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Joyz is a great example. The red dot shows thru clearly from the thumbnail and the surrounding region, thanks to your shading, makes it clear as to its general location to all but the least familiar readers of the Inner Sphere.--Rev ^{(talk|contribs)} 19:48, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

System Naming

Okay, I expect ClanWolverine101 to chime in here, but I'm seeing a potential issue: in the mockup for Sarna, the existing article does not provide the star's name. As the Overhaul is primarily transferring existing data from one format to the other, it is not up to the Overhaul team to research the stars' names. So, since these are system articles, what is Sarna's star's name, if unknown?
I'm thinking that CW101 was on the right path: the default should be the famous planet's name, with the famous planet taking on its orbital number, until the star's name is determined. Once that is known, the famous planet looses the orbital number, all other unnamed planets get renamed to the star's name (with orbital number) and "bob's your uncle". For example: Unknown Star Name:

• Sarna (star)
  • Sarna I
  • Sarna II
  • Sarna III (famous)
  • Sarna IV

Discovered Star Name:

• Omri (star)
  • Omri I
  • Omri II
  • Sarna (Omri III)
  • Omri IV

Comments? --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 18:43, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

This seems a good start to me. Obviously, in 97% of all cases, the planet will have the same name as the star, just with the roman numeral after it. (And usually, not even that. Luthien is called Luthien, not Luthien IV.) Heck, the vast majority of systems only have one inhabitable planet.

I know you could ARGUE that Terra, Mars and Sol could all have their own articles, but you could just as easily argue that they all be one article, called "Terra". Why? Glad you asked : Look at a map of the battletech universe. You can find them in most of the novels, and also the Solaris VII boxed set among many other products. Now look in the center of that map. What do you see? I see a place called "Terra". Not Sol. Not Mars. Not anything else that might be inhabited in the so-called "Sol" system. Just "Terra". In fact, you would be hard-pressed to find any mention of "Sol" until the Jihad era. It wasn't the "Sol Alliance", it was the "Terran Alliance". When people discuss the Dragoons' attack on Mars, they say Mars, in Terra's system.

Make sense? I'm fine with whatever the majority decides, but I've long been the guy saying "Why make three articles when you can do the same job in one?" ClanWolverine101 20:01, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

• CW, I can't show with a citation (at the moment), but I'm certain Terra's system has been identified as Sol somewhere. I'll provide it, when I can.

Oh, its come up in the Jihad era books, I'm sure, but I think you will agree those are pretty recent. Can you find one older? ClanWolverine101 21:41, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

As for one article instead of three, Frabby agreed with you and he convinced me. I think this new format allows for that. In the end, especially because of the "home system" being so rich, it'd be wrong to attribute all that richness to one article on Terra, and then break Mars, Venus & Jupiter out as separate articles. In reality, it's the system that is rich with details. Redirects to Terra (the planet proper) will solve most everyone's confusion as to what is meant when the planet is referenced (in an article).--Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:41, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

• I know this is probably a bone question, but if we don't know anything about the system or the orbital number of the planet, does the system entry simply go with the planet name, with no numbers? BrokenMnemonic 20:13, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

That's a good question. Okay..I need to work on a flow/decision chart. Thanks (take that sincerely or sardonically...your choice. --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:41, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes - if we don't have that information (such as number of planets in system, orbit of inhabited planet), then we cannot provide it. Frabby 20:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

• Revanche is spot on here. Keep in mind that System name may be different from sun name(s) which in turn may be different again from planet/moon/space station name(s). One (apocryphal) example that springs to my mind is the Weisau system: Its twin suns are named Orpheus and Eurydice, and the inhabited planet is called Brimstone, according to the Worldbook series article in BattleTechnology. Another is the Viborg system - the BattleCorps story Pirates of Penance suggests that it doesn't have any inhabited planets; its key colony is a massive space habitat named Penance in the Viborg asteroid belt. Wernke/Talon is another well-known example.

How many canon sources can you find where that is the case, not counting Sol/Terra? ClanWolverine101 21:41, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

It is incorrect that "the vast majority of systems only have one inhabitable planet" - HB:Liao states the CC as of 3025 has 217 systems with an average of two populated worlds in them (426 worlds in the 217 systems); similarly, the Duchy of Fenestere mentioned in HB:Davion encompasses 18 planets in (only) 5 systems. Keep in mind that there appear to be numerous minor settlements on different planets or moons. Frabby 20:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. I would submit that many of those were probably not "naturally" habitable. Meaning, like Mars, they were converted. But still - Quentin has two habitable worlds, and is a fairly major system. We treat it as one article. ClanWolverine101 21:41, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Observations

I just started an offline draft of a new-template pattern entry for Rollis, and I've come up with a couple of observations and niggles that I thought I'd mention...

• InfoBoxSystem and InfoBoxPlanet both have an image field. I'm guessing that one of these will be for the galactica map, and one for the planetary flag, if it's known - is that correct?
• Planet Update boxes: Rollis has planetary information available from two different eras, drawn from two different sources. I think this information has value - it potentially shows how populations and planetary levels have changed over time - but I don't know if the template allows for multiple InfoBoxPlanetUpdate entries. I think it probably should, but I don't know if you can repeat a template more than once in an article. I notice that in the Sarna article, there's the one info box, but each field has (3067) and a reference next to the information, which makes the box look a bit... cluttered. I think it would be better to expand the InfoBoxPlanetUpdate template by adding a "Year:" field, which can have the reference applied to it rather than to every entry. Most planets are either going to have no specifics (because they've never been printed up) or are going to have more than one, because the majority of planets that are important enough to have this sort of detail are important enough to be updated in later documents. I'm not sure how this would work, but what I'd like to be able to do for Rollis would be to do something like this:

{{InfoBoxPlanetUpdate#1
| year                = 3025 <ref name="HL:TCCp75">''House Liao (The Capellan Confederation)'', p. 75, "St. Ives">
| ruler               = Lord Mathus Overton
| capital             = 
| population          = 5,619,000,000
| USIIR               = 
| hpg                 = A
}}
{{InfoBoxPlanetUpdate#2
| year                = 3067 <ref name="HB:HLp81">''Handbook: House Liao'', p. 81, "St. ives"</ref>
| ruler               = Duchess Candace Liao
| capital             = 
| population          = 5,900,000,000
| USIIR               = A-A-B-A-C
| hpg                 = A
}}
{{InfoBoxPlanetUpdate#3
| year                = 3079 <ref name="OCCp2129">''Objectives: Capellan Confederation'', p. 2129, "St. ives"</ref>
| ruler               = Empress Marisa Tomei
| capital             = 
| population          = 4,600,000,000
| USIIR               = B-B-B-A-C
| hpg                 = A
}}

• At the moment, under the new template, the system histories are going to come fairly high up in the article. That's not an issue itself, but at the moment a lot of entries have the system history details after other details, such as the planetary data, garrison data and the like. Stylistically, I think the new way of doing things is a better way of doing things, but in practise it means a lot of references need to get copy and pasted back and forth, because the original citation (the garrison unit entry, the planetary ruler entry, etc) will now be further down the document than the system history. It's not a drama, but it's a bit of a pain moving them back and forth and checking that they've ended up back in the right order of precedence. Is there a trick here I'm missing to make it easier?