BattleTechWiki talk:Project BattleMechs

This article is within the scope of the Project BattleMechs, a collaborative effort to improve BattleTechWiki's coverage of BattleMechs. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

Archive

Unseen

How do we feel about putting up Unseen 'Mech images? I personally think it's a very bad idea considering the Harmony Gold lawsuit, but these are also rare images that are impossible to find unless you have the original TROs. Comments? --Scaletail 15:26, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

A little late. I have already scanned and put in most of the unseen images. Anyway, in their original form, that is what the 'Mechs did look like, and it is still connocaly (sp?) correct to use those images. CJKeys 00:47, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

The Project Phoenix images can be uploaded over them. That's not a major issue and should only take a couple of hours at most. Yes, I agree with you that this is what those 'Mechs looked like in 3025, but they look different in 3067. Personally, I like having the Unseen images up there because it gives newcomers to the game the ability to see them and know what those of us who have been around longer are talking about. My only concern is about the legality of post those same images. --Scaletail 12:26, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

As far as I know our use of them is fair use as we are using them as examples of the 'Mechs as they were originally done and not for profit. Additionaly, there is no risk to Fanpro or InResMedia as we are not afiliated with Fanpro, InResMedia, or with WizKids. If we need to update notes on each of the images, it is not that hard and we can do that but we do not need to delete them from the pages of this project as their use here does meet the standards for fair use. CJKeys 13:56, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

Works for me! --Scaletail 15:51, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

Candidates

Sorry to put myself into this talk, but I like to know how can I candidate myself to the Project BattleMech? I am the guy who made the inicial Vulture page, and I think I can do something useful in this project.

Nothing special is required, just add your name to the group as indicated at the top of the page. On a related note, you can sign your talk posts by typing four tildes at the end of it. --Scaletail 14:54, 18 May 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, just come on board and welcome aboard.CJKeys 23:47, 18 May 2007 (CDT)

Inner Sphere Mechs are Done

After working on this for around seven months I am proud to announce that all of the mainstream Inner Sphere 'Mechs that have a TRO entry are finished. I know as the game goes on this will be a continuing process but now we are oficially ahead of the curve on the Inner Sphere 'Mechs and I'm sure the Clan 'Mechs wont take too long. The Solaris VII 'Mechs are a creature unto themselves, and once I actually buy Map Pack Solaris VII, I will start working on those as I have already scanned images for them. I would like to congratulate the whole team. Without everyone here, we wouldn't have ever gotten this far. So don't be suprised if you also get this on each of your discussion pages. CJKeys 00:52, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

Famous Pilots

How about a section--along with "description," etc.--entitled "notable pilots?" There, we could include info on famous (or infamous) MechWarriors. Scaletail 15:03, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

I can agree with that. I dont want us to end up just copyign the notabel pilots out of the tros though. I woudl think pilots like Phelan Kell, Jamie Wolf, Victor Stiener Davion, etc. Those who are main storyline charachters who are big wigs and woudl be known throughotu the Inner Sphere, not just someone that is featuerd n a book and pilots a wraith if you knwo what I mean. CJKeys 22:45, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

I definitely would not want to just copy the featured pilots out of the Uprgrade TROs. Most of them are not notable at all. I think any character that is notable enough to warrant a article devoted to them would also be worthy of being noted as a famous pilot (and I mean a real article like Peter S-D, not a one line blurb like Nonda Toolipi). I think that the 'Mechs that were used by Solaris champions can also be noted. Scaletail 08:35, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

So, akin to the Peder Smythe discussion: What counts as a sufficiently notable character? While I do agree that pointless nobodies from the TROs should not be included, I strongly feel that characters who do have an entry in this wiki should be crosslinked, and that anyone who features prominently in a novel, game or sourcebook deserves mention. Mind, the mention of a given pilot in the 'Mech entry should be kept as short as possible, and link to the character's entry. But I think it does in fact belong there. Frabby 01:44, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Similar to my opinion on that previous discussion, I do not think that BTW is a place for lists. Given that outcome of that discussion, I believe that our earlier notability requirement for a notable pilot needs to be tightened up, since any character can now have an article written about them. I'll agree with CJ's statement above that main characters should be included, although I would be slightly more inclusive in saying that any character who is the main character of a novel is notable enough to have a section written about them. --Scaletail 18:51, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

I do like the idea of notable pilots. I also believe they shoudl be either extremely well known (ie Bounty Hunter, Kai Allard-Liao) or they should be the movers and shakers of the universe whio like to run around in 'mechs (Victor S-D, Theodore Kurita). As far as personell who are key to a novel....they may be notable int he novel but they might not be more then an average pilot in not so average circumstances in respect to being a 'Mechwarrior. I also woudl like tro see the pilots get only a couple of sentances instead of a paragraph as the reason they are notable should be foudn int he bulk of thier own article, not within the BattleMechs article.CJ 23:34, 3 April 2008 (CDT)

Other Technical Information

Hey guys. I've noticed the great work that's gone on with the 'Mech stuff, but I noticed that the more 'technical' details (like number of heat sinks, in particular) seems to be missing on the 'Mechs. Was it a conscious decision to not include that information? I noticed the same thing with the entries in the MechWikia pages as well. The reason I mention it is that while we say things like "On the Panther 10K2 variant, the heat sinks were swapped out with double-strength heat sinks...", but that doesn't tell someone how many beyond the basic 10 were double-strength. This is just one example of information that might be nice to add. Just my $0.02. :) Bdevoe 08:07, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

I signed on to the Project kinda late, but I believe it was never the intention to provide enough information to be able to fill in a record sheet (for that, you can go to chaosmarch.com). Rather, the project focused more on the description, aiming for a technical readout-like write-up. CJ can correct me on whatever is wrong, but that is my assumption. Scaletail 10:18, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

Scaletail is more less spot on. The Sarna wiki entires, and the ones I worked on previously in Mechwikia, are intended as a general TRO like description of the 'Mechs that can give the reader a good idea abotu the 'Mech. As far as sites that provide carbon copies of the record sheet info there are a few that already do that. CJKeys 00:59, 7 August 2007 (CDT)

That sounds fine and I didn't expect that an attempt would be made to provide the entire record sheet. You're right in that there are plenty of sites/applications that do that already. Maybe there's just two things I'm thinking about - weapon locations and the number of heat sinks. Some weapons replace existing limbs (like the MLaser on the Valkyrie) and some systems are in addition to limbs/hands (like the PPC on the Panther, although that's not "droppable"). It could simply be mentioned in the Armaments section. I do think the addition of heat sinks to the InfoBox would be nice, though. You're not providing location of the heat sinks, but it would give someone with some similarity with the game the ability to evaluate some of the variant pros/cons. Again, just my $0.02. :) Bdevoe 11:24, 7 August 2007 (CDT)

I understand what you're saying, and I don't see how more information can really be a bad thing. I mean, if we're going to put up images of the Unseen, we can post technical data. I think descriptions like "giving the 'Mech heat problems" should give you a general idea of the heat sink status of any given design. In my opinion, if we are aiming for a description of the 'Mech, that should be sufficient as the exact number of heat sinks is not vitally important to a 'Mech compared to its weapons. For that matter, I'm not sure the exact tonnage devoted to armor is vital, but the information is provided on most designs. I guess I'm sort of ambivalent about it. If you want to do the work, I won't stand in your way, but it's quite low on my list of things to do. Scaletail 16:40, 7 August 2007 (CDT)

*laugh* Fair enough. What I propose is that we add heat sinks to the info box. We're missing a bunch of other things as well - targeting system, communication systems, etc., but I think heat sinks as a field by itself would be fine. If CJKeys agrees to that, I'll make the adjustments to the InfoBox and start adding that data. I only have the 3025 and 3050 TROs, so anything beyond the 'Mechs in those would have to be added by someone else. For 'Mechs in those TROs, though, I would commit to adding that information myself. Thoughts? Bdevoe 19:55, 7 August 2007 (CDT)

Change format?

Let me first congratulate you folks on what you have achieved here! This said, I suggest the TRO format be abandoned, or at least significantly improved, because you (we) can do better than that. To correctly catalogue all BattleMechs I suggest a template along these lines (the same could in fact be used for any vehicle, fighter or spaceship):

• Generic Chassis information

(Very general description of the type: Chassis code (e.g. WSP for all Wasp variants), date of creation, known factories/producers, "core" variant, special stuff like OmniMech, command module, difficult to maintain, etc.), history, known users and proliferation on a scale from 0 (extinct/very rare) to 5 (common), special boardgame rules pertaining to the model (like flipping arms on Rifleman or piloting penalty on the Javelin), unseen

• Variants
  • sort variants by origin: official alternate model by original manufacturer, house modification, inofficial typical field modification
    • For each single variant: Exact designation, rundown of tech base, configuration, known production centers, reasons for the variant/modification, who invented the variant; descriptive armament text
    • Link to IIC version, if applicable (which should be treated as a different 'Mech, not a variant)

Also, the Chassis code (i.e. WSP for Wasp) should redirect to the BattleMech entry. Frabby 02:48, 8 August 2007 (CDT)

I fail to see how this is different that what has been done. Most BattleMech entries contain a date of production, a description of the 'Mech, and, where possible, its design history. We have made the decision not to simply copy the "famous pilots" from the TRO upgrade series, and I do plan to update some of the 'Mechs with famous pilots (like Victor Steiner-Davion in Victor and Daishi). I don't see how we could possibly do a number-based "proliferation" scale, as that info is nowhere I know of. Despite descriptions in the TRO that mention things like "this 'Mech's reactor shielding occasionally fails with no warning," there is no difference in game rules. If you want to start a House Rules article for the Javelin and indicate that you give it a +1 to piloting, that's fine with me. I also would have no objections to creating flippable arms and working that into the descriptions of 'Mechs for which that applies. The variants are currently sorted in alphanumerical order, which I believe works and see no reason to change. As for the other info on variants, as much of that as is possible is there. There is info on their armament, but there is usually no information on where these things are produced (if different). Some of that is changing, like in TRO:PP, but there's certainly no way that it can be done for every variant because the info simply does not exist. As for the IIC variants, they are all linked, but the pages for most of them have not been created yet. Scaletail 08:24, 8 August 2007 (CDT)

I agree with Scaletail on this. We are not attempting to create a "Janes BattleMech Guide" but are attempting to create entries on BattleMechs that tell you enough about them so that you know about the base version of the design and you also get information on each of the variants. The IIC Mechs are seperate. A link and breif description is privided to them under the varaints section because in the end, even though the 'Mechs are different enough to be a new design, they are also a variant upon the original design so they are both a variant and a new design. They havent been completed yet and once they are completed they will have thier own articles. The listing of variants should be done alphanumericly as this is the simplist and most encyclopedic way of doing this for reference. Additionally if you look at the faction list maintained by Peter Lacasse there are some varaints that are used by multiple houses because of trade agreements and alliances such as the Concord of Kapteyn and the Fedcom as well as the period of relative peace between the Draconis Combine and Federated Commonwealth rump state. As far as special board game rules and availability the availability is hard to place as most designs have more less proliferated greatly in one house or another and have some numbers outside of thier home state including some designs that used to be exclusively old SLDF/Comstar and the special rules for designs were never conon rules. The only thing that some 'Mechs have special is that they can flip arms without lower arm actuators in both ars which may be notable but isnt a requirement. I would like to state to end my response that the current format that is used gives a great deal of information to the reader without becoming so specific as to only appeal to the technophiles within BattleTech. The generality of the format also allows for the fact that even though we get the game specs for 'Mechs and also some historical information; In many cases, especially with the designs introduced since 3060, we really dont know much more then what the technical readout tells us. CJKeys 00:40, 9 August 2007 (CDT)

Faction Categories

FIVE-one asked a question that I've been kicking around for a while, so I finally decided to ask it. When categorizing 'Mechs by facion, do we want to give them all of the categories it would fall under per Combat Operations, or do we want to categorize it by the producer? While I can see why ComOps is the point of origin for this, I don't think we should use it to categorize 'Mech articles. It should be classified by the producer/creator. For instance, the Eagle is produced in the FWL, but sold to the CC. Since it is usable by the CC, it is listed under CC in ComOps, but it's not a Capellan 'Mech. Anybody else have an opinion? --Scaletail 21:40, 13 December 2007 (CST)

Well, I think some Clan 'Mechs were listed in other Clans because many 'Mech designs are widespread throughout the Clans due to many Trials of Possession and battle salvage. Otherwise, when a foreign is present in a "foreign" Clan, it does not automaticaly mean the 'Mech is produced in this Clan.In my example (the Kodiak, a totem 'Mech), the design is only produced by Clan Ghost Bear. --FIVE-one 03:00, 14 December 2007 (CST)

Since I wrote the original commentary as I was getting ready for bed, allow me to clarify. There seems to be two different ways we could categorize 'Mechs:

1. By all factions that have access to them (as is essentially done with the "General" categories). This means that even if a given faction does not build a design, then it may still be listed because it trades for it (or whatever) in significant enough quantities. The advantage of this is that is can be done using the Force Faction Tables listed in Combat Operations (or the web whenever the new one gets done). The downside is that 'Mechs again end up categorized all over the place, especially with 3025 'Mechs that now have all kinds of exclusive variants, which means they will end up with a dozen or more categories.
2. By producing faction. This would (in my mind) essentially necessitate a bastardization of the info in ComOps with some 'Mechs being "General" (available to all factions- Clan or IS) and others "belonging" to one faction.

This is an issue that I have basically tabled because I believe the members of this project were waiting to finish all of the 'Mech articles before we decided what path to take, but I think we are sufficiently close to completion that it is something we can discuss. I prefer the second way, myself. It may (may!) be slightly more problematic in certain instances, but I think it is the more appropriate way to deal with this here. --Scaletail 15:00, 14 December 2007 (CST)

This essentially tackles what I intended to do with a section about "proliferation" in my above suggestion to improve the 'Mech templates. For a roleplayer like me, any 'Mech could show up anywhere if it can be explained by a feasible backstory. Some unusual cases are even canon: A particular Black Thorns warrior is a fugitive from a Capellan Warrior House who brought his Raven 'Mech, and vice versa a WH Hiritsu warrior rides one of three Tomahawks in the Capellan Confederation in the novel Binding Force where the history of the 'Mech is even explained in some detail. Any 'Mech design could turn up as salvage, anywhere. It comes down to the fact that no table or categoy could ever do the proliferation justice, regardless of wether they are categorized by producer, designer, or whatever. It will always be a grey area and should be noted as "proliferation" in each individual 'Mech entry. Frabby 15:23, 14 December 2007 (CST)

I see the problem with listing a 'Mech within a certain faction (solely because it served in that faction's military) as one of over-saturation. I can acknowledge that /will/ become a problem, if the standard is any single mention of a 'Mech type within a faction merits its inclusion as /available/ to that faction as a whole. However, like the faction lists of ComOps and the ones placed in the newer tomes, there is value in a User being able to see what unit types a faction can muster.

I'd suggest a compromise somewhere in between: if the only mention of a unit type ('Mech, ASF, whatever) is that of a Hero one (i.e., the unit itself becomes a character because of its uniqueness), then it is not 'fielded' by that faction. Instead, units are only fielded by a faction if the canon suggests they are included in military formations and are not assumed to be special because of their uniqueness. Ex: Sergeant Milhouse of the 25th Lyran Whatevers pilots a family 'Mech (of the PIB-27 Puss-In-Boots variety) that he brought with him when he defected from the Kuritans. However, the canon mentions the same battalion fields that 'Mech type because of a large cache found back in 2927 and they've been keeping the formation suitably supplied. In the first case by itself, the Lyrans don't field the PIB-27, so the article would't merit be categorized with the Lyrans. However, in the case of the second, the article would. In other words, if the only mention is of 'Mechs being fielded because of singular, unique reasons, they don't warrant being categorized as that faction's. --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 16:05, 14 December 2007 (CST)

Frabby, I don't know what you intend to do with "proliferation," nor what you expect anybody else to do. Perhaps if you could give an example, or tell me where this information could be found it would help. I don't think this will be an issue if we choose to base our decision on a canon source. ComOps has a list of what factions field significant quantities of what units, so we can use that as the guide and nothing else if we would like. I agree that every faction fields at least one of almost every 'Mech in production. For example, there are Dragons all over place. I suspect that the FedSuns field a somewhat significant number of them, but it is still thought of as a Combine BattleMech, so BTW should reflect that. Similarly, any unit that is not listed under the "General" list in ComOps should be categorized by the producing faction(s) only. --Scaletail 19:19, 15 December 2007 (CST)

Having read this discussion a couple of different times, I have come up with another solution, as I dislike the current situation. I understand that people want to know generally what factions field what units in significant quantities, and it's something that I agree should be included, though I still think a numbered system is unrealistic. I also believe that trying to use categories to provide this information is simply not up to the task. The compromise would be to put this information in the body of the article. In addition to the design history and stats in the "Description" section, we can also include info about what factions field the unit (based upon the tables in ComOps and more updated info). This then allows us to condense the categories and only put 'Mechs in one faction category. --Scaletail 18:32, 29 July 2008 (CDT)

Project Units?

Given that most of the BattleMech articles have been completed, I was wondering what the project's members thought about expanding the scope of it. Obviously, work will still need to be done on the 'Mech articles long after all the ones that are currently in existence have articles, but I believe that the standards created here can be applied to almost any unit. For this reason, I propose expanding Project BattleMechs into "Project Units" (the name is certainly not set in stone), under which all articles for units would fall. This would include 'Mechs, combat vehicles, aerospace fighters, JumpShips, DropShips, WarShips, ProtoMechs, and battle armor. I believe the main advantages of this would be using what has already been done on the BattleMech articles to create new unit articles without having to reinvent the wheel, as well as presenting a unified feel for all articles on units. --Scaletail 11:08, 21 December 2007 (CST)

I absolutely agree. You guys accomplished so much while I was deployed, it is simply amazing. Its got my support. (Guess the project would need a new user banner.) --Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 13:10, 21 December 2007 (CST)

Age of Destruction Era 'Mechs

I would like to create some Clan exclusives 'Mechs, that I use to fight with in Mechwarrior : Age of Destruction. However I don't have any photo from any TRO about those, seen there is no TRO speaking about those beasts, only 'Mech dossier which are given with their 'Mechs. Those contains some impressive images I might add if you allow me to do so, with a link to the original dossier .PDF on Wizkids Official Site. I already have 3 entries I can create : Shrike (like Melvina Hazen's one), Gyrfalcon and Eyrie plus the Jade Hawk. I can do so with other Clan exclusives like the Sun Cobra, Wulfen and Warwolf (Clan Wolf), Karhu (Clan Ghost Bear/Rasalhague Dominion), Cave Lion (Clan Nova Cat/Spirit Cats; Ocelot is already done). (I'm not sure but I think the Ghost can be added as a Clan Nova Cat one.) --FIVE-one 14:17, 5 January 2008 (CST)

We haven't yet decided what we want to do with with the MW:DA/AoD 'Mechs, but I think most of them can be included using the same format we have now. TPTB have hinted that a new TRO may be on the way soon(ish), so I think we will eventually have the info to fill in whatever gaps exist. I'd say go for it, and if you run into any significant problems, ask for specific help. --Scaletail 15:23, 5 January 2008 (CST)

Cool, the only question I would have is how to handle the references from the dossiers. --MEC 17:58, 5 January 2008 (CST)

While I don't play AoD or own anything from it, I have seen a lot of the stuff WK put up on their website. I would recommend using the title of the card ("Jupiter Technical Readout card", for example) and providing a link to the .pdf on the website if its available. I see that the alphanumerical designation of the card has been used, but that's personally of no use to me, though more info cannot hurt. I'm not sure how much sense that makes, but hopefully I'm not way out in left field. --Scaletail 18:19, 5 January 2008 (CST)

I propose that DA/AoD variants of 'Mechs are placed into their own section. Agree/disagree? --Scaletail 18:18, 14 May 2008 (CDT)

Video game entries

This has been put off, but, since the issue has come up, I believe it is time to address what to do with video-game exclusive 'Mechs and variants. I personally believe that any variants that do not have corresponding stats in CBT should be given their own section and denoted as video game-only variants. 'Mech articles on video game-exclusive designs should be clearly and prominently labeled as such. I give the floor to everybody else. --Scaletail 18:54, 28 January 2008 (CST)

What exactly do you mean by Video Game only, like mechs from Mektek that were modded into MW4, like the Gesu, Deimos, or the Thanatos XMT? --Quicksilver Kalasa 22:34, 18 August 2008 (CDT)