Requiem
03/04/20 03:24 AM
101.185.82.147
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The issue with using IS manufacturing is when or even if the clans have updated them to produce clan tech.
Operation Revival Logistics
Initially
Each Clans’ Factories within the Kerensky Cluster would produce their Clans required items;
They would then be warehoused until their all inventory numbers required for all products reaches a designated amount – at this stage they are all bulked together – additional items such as Mechs, Elemental Suits and Fighters are added – Those replacement personnel would also be added;
They would then be loaded onto their Clans respective merchant dropships and be taken via merchant Jumpships to a central space-station who would then transfer then to the more larger Jumpships (smaller number of large capacity jumpships = efficient use of resources) that are then used to transport all the goods and services to the Inner Sphere;
Travel along the exodus road – 6 months;
Upon arrival they are disembarked onto a second Space-station where they will be unloaded onto their respective Clans’ IS merchant Jumpships, and to be transported to either their hidden warehouses, within the deep periphery, or directly to each individual captured world for delivery as required by each units inventory requirements (bulk breaking as required).
To complete this process – 7 to 8 months (minimum) – for an invasion logistics requirement this is very long and care must be taken the IS do not learn of its routes – if cut it will cause severe problems to every invading clan force. (Not that TPTB ever considered this an issue to begin with!)
However there will always be a need for certain items – such as weapon consumables
At this stage each individual Clan has two options – either establish a hidden factory within the deep periphery ( where again there is a time lag between ordering it and receiving it) or convert an IS facility to Clan Specs (reduced time to delivery) however you will have to assign an increased garrison or build a new one from scratch (call in the Worker Caste from home to ship and build it) (IS - Psy-Ops – de-program their workers get them to defect!)
Being a blinkered Clansman as to the ability of the average IS warrior I doubt they would even consider / believe any IS force could take anything from them – thus why not build it (safe as if it was still within the Kerensky Cluster). AS the only real threat is another Clan issuing a Trial of Possession for their factory, as it’s not as if an IS force would issue a Trial of Possession for it?
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And any real damage done to warships would be permanent, as the IS did not have warships at this time. Maybe the alt might, but not canon.
Mass Aerospace fighters from space (against the warships and ant target on the ground in the absence of any warship) as well as mass conventional fighters and bombers (Dropships lands away from the target next to a long stretch of straight road – send them in and pound it flat with gravity bombs! – then leave). In the canon they have massive amounts of conventional fighters! (as shown in the recent forum post concerning this topic)
ALT UNIVERSE: Or you could just retake the world – kill off the garrison with a commando / ISF strike and just walk in.
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Training to be a MechWarrior
IS Cadet training starts at about 13 – however House Universities do offer courses for older recruits (assume 16 / 17) ie. a more intense short course – by the time they graduate and are posted to a unit they should be around 20 / 21.
However Hanse also had training within the military (Prior to 4th SW - Justin Allarad was in charge before getting shot out of his ‘Mech (Spider) by a Rifleman – and then court marshaled) – (so these individuals would be 22 – 25 when they start and 24 – 27 when the finish training?)
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How many people were actually in the resistances in the history of Terra? Maybe .001 percent if that? No more then a couple thousand.
Refer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_during_World_War_II
Dutch – autumn 1944 – 300,000; Polish Home Army – Late 1943 – 400,000 – soviet numbers were also similar to this as well as the Yugoslav; French – 200,000; Plus a further 300,000 others. (In Europe alone approx 2,000,000 from the five biggest Resistance groups – so when you factor in all the smaller groups this will be vastly increased)
Retaliation –
didn’t work in France – 10 June 1944 Oradour-sur-Glane (642 of its inhabitants)
didn’t work in Italy – 24 March 1944 Fosse Ardeatine massacre (335)
didn’t work in Russia - https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/einsatzgruppen
The only time it did work was in Poland when they assassinated Reinhard Heydrich – one of their own collaborated to save his and his family from reprisal – however post WW2 he was hung for treason.
Didn’t work in China – Nanking comes to mind – this act just made the Chinese fight harder against their oppressors.
History is littered with retaliation against the people by the strong – Robyn Hood for example / Roman Quintus Varus in the Black Forest – next to none of them ever succeeded.
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So what happens if you do manage to kill off all the garrison at once? Even though it is highly unlikely, what comes next?
This would have been set up in advance via Black Box Transmission – whereby a relief force would arrive and take over the security of the world in question – or you could play dumb and say they defected to the IS hiding all trace that they were killed off, the IS could then leak a transmission stating that the unit defected as a cover story.
Or if you are in the DC – very nasty food poison and say they were told not eat the blow-fish, it’s their fault they didn’t prepare it correctly!
I am sure there could be other excuses you could use as well.
Plus killing of a great deal of garrison troops all at once on multiple worlds throughout all of the Clans Invasion Corridors will shock them to their core as to their belief in how the war is progressing!
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The lack of hope would keep some from resisting. With the FRR, the only way they could even attempt to retake worlds is with the DC/FC sending in the forces.
In my Alt following the year of peace (now renamed the year of preparation) I have added the FWL and the ComGuards to the fight – so its not all doom and gloom
Plus with Black Boxes you can sent updates as to how the wider war is going – keep up the morale of those still fighting – they have not been forgotten about!
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being 5 or so jumps deep behind the border
What did we learn from the Canon war of 3039 – use non standard jump points to get into position to attack your enemy when they least suspect it.
I would also like to add – diversions are sometimes very necessary to carry out strikes upon other more important targets!
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The masses want a peace, and to make a living. Having their children being trained, but still able to contact them would be enough for most families.
Where did this ever work in a modern battlefield within the 20th / 21st Century?
As for partisan leaders – some may seek to keep their power but with the return of their Houses government this will be difficult – run for election based upon your war history may work.
For those who want to keep it by force – what do their people think about this? As well as the people on their planet? – you could always make him / her a noble and give them the world thus making them part of the Houses aristocracy.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/04/20 01:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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The game is in error calling the clan invasion route, the exodus road. A large chunk of the exodus road goes around the north east quadrant of the IS. Something the invasion route does not do.
As for moving the items to a station, then disbursing it to the proper clan, I think that is a little wasteful. Just have the proper clans merchant ships pick it up from a depot at, or very near the factories. Doesn't mean they don't have the parts depot on a station some where, it just seems like too many transfers.
I guess I should have added to not having warships, the fact that only Sol had functional warship facilities. This is where any damage to a warship would be permanent. Unless the IS clans had yardships in the IS. And even then, with taking those factories on the home world, supplies would dry up.
So it comes down to what I was getting at. One of the big issues with the 'foster' system would be the lack of contact with their children. For some, or on some worlds, this would actually be beneficial other then the lack of contact. For the poor, they would be learning skills beyond what society would allow, if testing shows that.
Now with the resistance, add in the fact that the closest help may be 30 light years away, or more. It isn't like there is a country within a few thousand miles. Not saying it would never have people, I am saying it would never be enough to liberate a planet by itself. And most would not join. They would support, but not become one of the fighters.
The clans would return, and retake the world, and with that, really punish those living there. They would know the idea of a unit defecting isn't likely. Especially those of the blood lines they came from. It is a dire insult to them, even if the person isn't bloodnamed, to suggest they would do so. And with others, the clans can tell the difference between food poisoning, including the type, over say a gun shot or slit throat. The bodies would be required for them to believe anything. DNA testing will be done.
Minor issue with the FRR recovery set up. The FC definitely would NOT allow other nations to have access to the black boxes. Just would not happen. This is tech they would need in the future, when national hatreds flared again. And all KNOW, that would happen. Not only would it allow enemy units to coordinate on your worlds, but also bypass any security at HPG locations to send out information on your defenses.
The war of 3039 was not where they learned to use uninhabited systems to strike at the enemy. They were using that long before this time. Even in the 1st war, they used it. Most the strikes on Hespertus, had the forces using uninhabited systems. Most deep raids tend to use them as well. And almost any raid, uses non standard jump points in the target system. Even if it is not around the target world.
Elections work only for those positions that can be obtained by election. Being a duke or higher can not be achieved this way. Prince titles as well as king and emperor are forged in conquest. The lure of even the title is far more powerful then most realize. And those successful, or sneaky leaders, will be tempted. Some will seize upon the thought. Most worlds want independence from the houses, but want support as well. Negotiations are needed at times, when the populace don't want the return of the overlords sent by the house.
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Requiem
03/04/20 03:55 PM
101.185.82.147
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As for moving the items to a station, then disbursing it to the proper clan, I think that is a little wasteful.
Centralized distribution point Vs. having many Jump-ships wandering the Kerensky Cluster picking up “parcels” or inventory.
In my opinion the latter is the wasteful.
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……the 'foster' system would be the lack of contact with their children. For some, or on some worlds, this would actually be beneficial other then the lack of contact. For the poor, they would be learning skills beyond what society would allow, if testing shows that.
And what about all the children from good homes, the other 99%. How are they going to accept being pulled from good loving families and thrown to the cold and emotionless system the Clans believe is best for them? How are their loving parents supposed to react?
War to the death comes to mind here or have I been lied to by every movie / TV series on this subject?
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Now with the resistance, add in the fact that the closest help may be 30 light years away, or more. It isn't like there is a country within a few thousand miles. Not saying it would never have people, I am saying it would never be enough to liberate a planet by itself. And most would not join. They would support, but not become one of the fighters.
Highly disagree! We are all in the same boat – hang separately or together.
Plus with Black Box technology, hidden units very close by and limiting Clan Access to ComStar HPG you can assure there is a good chance of this plan coming off successfully.
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The clans would return, and retake the world, and with that, really punish those living there.
They can try!
If this is occurring on multiple worlds at the same time as well as a push by the IS upon their front lines would they even have the forces to consider regain worlds in their rear.
Plus by the time the IS consider implementing this plan wouldn’t it be realistic that they are going to put multiple units (RCTs) upon each of these worlds? In addition – enough conventional fighters / bombers / VTOLS to really put a crimp in any Clan re-invasion.
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They would know the idea of a unit defecting isn't likely.
Would they? This is really where the game falls down once again – the belief that people from a closed society when they experience an open society they decide to defect – look at the massive evidence in recent history that backs this up.
The Clans do not have political officers – commissars – to keep every-one in line.
Just because the canon completely ignores this topic doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen in reality.
Those who belong to a blood-line are warriors and they are in control – they are the problem – what about everyone else from the Freebirths in PGCs who are not allowed to fight and are only used as a battlefield clean up service. What about the workers, the merchants the scientists – they are completely undervalued within Clan Society, however within the IS society they would be highly valued.
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…..the clans can tell the difference between food poisoning….
Can they? When looking at their police force (thugs in all but name) – (failed elementals who use their muscles more than their brains) – has anything been written that they have access to CSI? Are their medical officers been trained to look for the subtle signs that an autopsy would look for?
The majority of their medical sciences is concerned about Trueborn jean forging and Battlefield repair – it does not seem to allude to crime investigation that you would see within the IS.
PS – all DNA testing will do is tell you the identification of the corpse – a full toxicology report will be required and all that will tell you they died by eating blowfish – which is what the people told you they died of – they died by their ‘own’ misadventure when eating something dangerous ie. getting a rush by doing something dangerous – something that you would attribute to thrill junky MechWarrior that many of the Clans True-born are considered to be …..
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The FC definitely would NOT allow other nations to have access to the black boxes.
Too late DC already has them – Battle for Lutherin – message sent to Hanse Davion!
For all others – FRR, FWL and ComStar Units can be assigned a Fed-Com Communications Team (who have a Black Box) to send a message for them when required.
Also remember all messages would not be in the clear they would be heavily encrypted!
Consider Bletchley Park WW2, consider all the code breakers within all the militaries.
Consider large scale alliances such as NATO – how will they communicate on the battlefield if and when they are required to do so?
In this case the IS has remade the Star League as well as the SLDF – how are units within the SLDF (NATO) supposed to communicate with each other – it is easy when they have access to a HPG or do you expect a pony express via Jump-ship?
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The war of 3039….
It may not have been the first use of this tactic …. it still doesn’t say that it can’t be used again within the Clan Invasion war …. It is a good tactic that should be used as it is not something the clans would expect, just as Hanse did not expect it in the 3039 War.
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….the populace don't want the return of the overlords sent by the house.
Not all of the aristocracy are bad – many of them are actually beloved by their people(when you read all the House Books / one off game books etc.) – thus it must be taken on a case by case basis.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/04/20 07:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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Other 99%? You think the main population on worlds are rich?
Not even close. Even the name Steiner-Davion doesn't mean rich.
Those with good homes would be upset about anything they didn't like. A curfew that requires their children to be home by 5 pm would get them in an uproar.
What was that? 200k from France out of tens of millions? History has shown that most people would not join the resistance. Even in the face of what WWII brought about. And no matter how well planned, someone would be in their armor/mech when the strike goes down. Otherwise you leave a huge logic gap. There is no way the clans would leave shifts without someone on guard. It may only be a single elemental or mech warrior, but it would be something.
Actually, the IS would not be putting multiple RCTs on a world to liberate it. If they had them available, with transportation, it would be better to have them destroying the main force of the clans. Barring warship activity, they would rather destroy the front line forces, then deal with the second line and garrison units. With the exception of one of the leaders being taken in combat.
Still setting up the middle of the game with end game knowledge. Even with the Dragoons information, they still did not know how many forces they faced. The Dragoons mission was intel in the enemy territory. Not preparation for the invasion. It would be smart for the clans in increase production as soon as the Dragoons left and not let them know anything when they reported in. The stupid thing is this did not happen. The crusaders would be increasing their forces no matter what. As it was said. It was only a matter of time.
Think about it. Do you think a society that was racially (DNA) pure wouldn't look for oddities in someone that died without wounds? It would be a major investigation to make sure the entire line was not flawed.
The FC did not know about the DC having them until after the Dragoon meeting. As this is supposed to be before that, it wouldn't even be mentioned. Also, letting Comstar know they had it, would be giving comstar the keys to the Palace on both capital worlds. Not that comstar would be part of this.
And now the kicker. Your version has the 3039 war with the CC. So the DC would not acquire them.
Or are you looking to make the same mistakes you say canon does?
The use of common communication devices among allies is normal. The codes are the key. That does NOT mean they will give up their special devices and codes. Dead drops and such would remain a secret for their intel apparatus, with the allied ones being different.
Honestly, I would expect both types of communications to be used in the new SLDF. There will be secret missions that require a pony express, as they may well be bringing personnel/equipment to the field as well as messages. Also for those in systems without and HPG. No matter how close allies are, they will never give up all their secrets to each other. If the alliance sours, what do you have to stop from being taken out?
Use the full sentence for your responses.
Negotiations are needed at times, when the populace don't want the return of the overlords sent by the house.
WHEN the populace. Not the populace don't want them. The WHEN is the key here. As with Anduriens, There is a chance to change how they are treated as a whole. No more status quo. You will provide us with the funds to create our own defenses, at the level we choose. Not leave us defenseless as was done to allow the world to be taken. Doesn't matter what was going on, only our world is important.
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Requiem
03/05/20 05:51 AM
101.185.82.147
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Other 99%? You think the main population on worlds are rich?
Socio- Industrial levels are available; https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Universal_Socio-Industrial_Index_Rating
Socio-economic conditions are not, though the socio- industrial table may give an overview as to an average person I doubt this could be taken as proof as to anyones overall living conditions.
Certain worlds at particular times are described in detail when they relate to an individual story or when they are discussed at within House Books, however again not in very great detail.
Suggest leaving this to individual GMs
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What was that? 200k from France out of tens of millions? History has shown that most people would not join the resistance.
Population of France in 1944 – 138,397,345
Those within the resistance – 400,000
% of population within the resistance – 0.3% of the population were active resistance members
Worlds within Jade Falcon Invasion Corridor Population – and estimated minimum resistance numbers
Black Earth – 187,710,000 ………………….. 563,130
Somerset – 238,000,000 ……………………. 714,000
Hot Springs – 1,553,325,000 ………………. 4,659,975
Sudeten – 2,350,100,000 …………………... 7,050,300
Remember this should be considered as a base number – when each Clan starts taking children conservative estimate – times these numbers by a factor of who knows how outraged the world is (GM perview).
However, even with a 0.3% the numbers are large enough to destroy Cluster sized garrison on the smaller populated worlds to galaxy size on the larger!
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There is no way the clans would leave shifts without someone on guard.
Consider the basic Garrison – One Trinary Mech (15) + One Star Elementals (25) and two point aerospace (4)
Or how about a Cluster of Mechs on their own (45)
three basic shifts each 8 hours long – plus you need to accommodate for days off to rest – even a true born could not keep up this schedule for long ….
Then there is the issue of base security – how good are they when they haven’t actually had to conduct a security drill since the time they started initiating Trials of possession.
With a squad of trained marksman you could easily pick them off either one at a time or in groups when they stray outside (un-augmented) – then there are bombings (IEDs) etc.
What could be considered here is an example of either WW2 or Vietnam!
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Actually, the IS would not be putting multiple RCTs on a world to liberate it. If they had them available, with transportation, it would be better to have them destroying the main force of the clans.
Again with issue of transportation? Haven’t we been on this merry-go-round too many times?
At the start of the Clan Invasion … the following IS Houses would have the following ……
Fed Com – 280+ Regiments;
DC – 99 Regiments; and
FRR – 16 Regiments.
By the time of the year of peace – which I have renamed the Year of preparation
ComStar 50 Regiments; and
FWL – 66 Regiments
Will be included into the Clan Invasion War
Please remember the Clan Invasion is only about 1/3 the size of the 4th SW – so there will be more than enough Jump-ships.
Towards the end of the second wave beginning third wave you will see more than one RCT unit in front of the Clans Invasion – by the end of the third wave this will be ratcheted up once more – the clans will therefore have to increase their forces to keep pace with increase of the IS or face total destruction of their force assigned to take the world. Thus more damage on both sides – sooner or later the Clans logistics / sibko system will implode – with just to reserve Clans they do NOT have the forces to fight an attrition war – they have no concept whatsoever as to a psy-ops war (aimed at thie non-warrior caste members) – they have no idea as to fighting partisans – the have no ability whatsoever to properly garrison their forces – many of the Clans do not have enough warships to properly guard their logistics fleets – their merchant Jump-ship numbers are critically low, take them out and their ability to advance will be stopped …..
There is more than enough targets on the board to go after an many are not their warrior forces….
It is time to say the Clans invasion of the Inner Sphere is very poorly planned for and executed …. There are just too many plot holes that indicate they were inept in understanding how to hold onto the worlds they took as well as when it comes to understanding logistics.
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Even with the Dragoons information, they still did not know how many forces they faced. The Dragoons mission was intel in the enemy territory. Not preparation for the invasion.
The Dragoons reports must have been pretty inept given the number of forces each Clan included –
When you have planets with populations in the billions and as shown just eleven worlds within the Jade Falcon corridor have a combined population of 102 times that of their own population in Clan space there is something severely wrong when it comes to the size of the elemental detachment in attempting to hold onto any planet …
Plus you would have thought any report would have included a reasonable TO&E as to each house’s current units and tactics – Vehicles, VTOL, Conventional Aircraft / Bombers, infantry levels (support weapons as well as available weapons that could damage Mechs and Elementals (SRM + Inferno) etc. …. And yet they didn’t …..
Plus you would have thought they would have been supplied with each House Lords Psychological profile as well as each houses cultural profile – they should have understood many of the clan social norms would not work in the inner sphere thus they should not have even attempted them – they should have also understood how to treat people in the inner sphere – and yet they didn’t!
Plus they should have worked out that any use of a Warship within the IS would result in a nuclear attack by the House in question …. And yet they didn’t …
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Do you think a society that was racially (DNA) pure wouldn't look for oddities in someone that died without wounds? It would be a major investigation to make sure the entire line was not flawed.
What would happen when the Dr. told the warrior that their comrade died due to something they ate? Hushed up?
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The FC did not know about the DC having them until after the Dragoon meeting.
Message sent re: Invasion of DC Capitol world ….
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As this is supposed to be before that, it wouldn't even be mentioned. Also, letting Comstar know they had it, would be giving comstar the keys to the Palace on both capital worlds. Not that comstar would be part of this.
During the Year of Peace, renamed Year of Preparation, and the subsequent reforming of the SL and the SLDF …..
Concessions will be have to be made - If you want to coordinate the SLDF units within the Invasion Corridor and within the Deep periphery you will have to provide Fed-Com personnel together with Black Box Technology – no matter how damaging it may be in the long scheme of things. It would be detrimental for the new SLDF if you don’t ….
That is unless ComStar has a solution regarding their HPGs one each world whereby a unit can contact the HPG station covertly and they will send the message ….
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And now the kicker. Your version has the 3039 war with the CC. So the DC would not acquire them. Or are you looking to make the same mistakes you say canon does?
Refer - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Box
The DC obtained them before the 3039 war.
Also during the WW2 – information sharing by the allies was common practice – the end result information – not how they got the information, there will always be secrets held by one house over another no matter how close they are!
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WHEN the populace.
They do not have the political power to make demands from their house lords. How feared are LOKI and the ISF / O5P? and are they deserving of this reputation?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/05/20 12:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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Well the Dragoon intel may well have been inept, but I think it was more ignored by the crusaders, and as the last one was near 3020, years old. So any TO&E would be out of date at best. Units get destroyed and replaced, normally with different units. Also size changes with this. And the attitude of the clan warriors being gods among the IS doesn't help.
This is not including the SL tech being put to use on these units as well. Additional units, such as new RCTs such as the FC ones, may not have been added.
This does bring up a few questions. If the Dragoons last went to report after they left the LC employ, there is no real way the clans would have had them report the 4th war. The Outbound light would be the only intel they had on it.
Then again, you have to question a freeborn, even in the Wolves, being given command of warships.
The people of the FRR staged many revolts and such, so the fear of the ISF wasn't enough to stop it. Why does that have any effect on worlds trying to keep from returning to status quo, after they go independent? They would push for better terms for their worlds, if the leaders are not greedy, to full massive upgrades to their own personal lifestyles. The DC would be less inclined to grant most of that, but they have given in to demands before. So it isn't like it is unknown.
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Requiem
03/06/20 01:06 AM
101.185.82.147
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The Last updated authentication of information provided to the Clans was 3020 – and the Clans invaded in 3050 – 30 years of outdated information and they decide to rely upon the information gleamed from those upon the Merchant Class Jumpship Outbound Light?
There is something seriously wrong with the Clans when they decide to invade with such outdated information. Why didn’t the send in a second or third small force with the aim of locating the Dragoons and requesting an updated intelligence report one / two year(s) prior to the invasion?
In not requesting this information their belief in themselves must have bordered on that of the zealot.
As any normal military information would request all of the most updated information to hand.
Walking in blind is no way to start an invasion!
And as for the Dragoons preparing the IS for the invasion this was equally non-existent. As the Dragoons had six warships why didn’t they use them during the Clan Invasion?
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The people of the FRR staged many revolts and such, so the fear of the ISF wasn't enough to stop it.
A demonstration is one thing …. declaring independence is another.
How many leaders stood up and gave speeches on their eventual liberation? My bet not many ……
The DC would look at the individual and determine if they are useful for the future of the Dragon ….. we all know what happens to those who are not useful.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/10/20 06:18 PM
101.185.82.147
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Second Inherent Weakness of the Clans
The Protracted War on a single world
Within the Kerensky Cluster – there are circles of equals the battle is fought very quickly – any injured / Dead people and damaged ‘Mechs / elementals / aerospace fighters can be quickly recovered and acted upon will all due alacrity by their PGCs.
However within the IS – where the entire world becomes a “Circle of Equals” and they are run around vast areas for long periods of time …. How can they
- Feed their people in the field;
- Supply medical attention to people in the field;
- Repair damage to Mechs and Elementals in the filed; etc
On a protracted basis when the Clans do not have vehicle teams (support personnel and vehicles) as all IS units have permanently attached.
Wouldn’t this mean that every Clan unit on protracted missions would have to move their Drop-ships on an almost permanent basis to fill in for these units?
What happens to these units when the IS targets their dropships first – removing their support bases – and then leads them on a merry chase again for a second extended period of time – how can clans units look to all the needs of their warriors whist in the field for extended periods of time
- where an IS unit is more than capable of working with?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/15/20 05:19 AM
101.185.93.54
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When considering the completeness and accuracy of the Dragoon information contained within their first missive (3020) – to obtain a ‘canon invasion’ of the Inner Sphere the information must have been heavily modified so as to not unduly alarm the Grand Council.
However, in the event it is accurate it should have caused a major conflagration within clan society as to their ability to conquer the inner Sphere given their numbers in comparison to that of those within Clan Space – Garrisons alone would pose a major issue – as well as how their closed and extremely hash society(s) could ever be imposed upon an Inner Sphere people from a psychological / sociology point of view.
Other issues that must be addressed – such as the Inner Spheres use of attrition warfare versus the Clan’s Blitzkrieg style of war (and how this will affect their sibko replacement numbers) will also be needed to be addressed prior to the Invasion of the Inner Sphere.
To that end they (The Grand Council) would require multiple 5 year updates as well as detailed information on certain topics so as to establish a detailed military / civilian intelligence report – thus a semi-permanent communications network should have been established with the Dragoons (and with the Inner Sphere).
However when you factor in the number and types of units assigned to the invasion it is clear that the information provided by the Dragoons was completely under analyzed by all the Clans (even the Wolves) – this can only mean the Clans do not have a dedicated military intelligence – who if used would have recognized the shortcomings of the Clans invasion shortly after 3020 and as such could have put in place measures to increase their militaries to rectify these shortcomings
As such ….
Each Clan will need – a dedicated Military Intelligence unit; MP unit to deal with insurgents and a dedicated team to administer these worlds –
They will also require a shift in the way they deal with non warrior’s – the way IS people expect to treated by a conquering entity must be similar to that of any House unit – if they (the Clans) try to impose their will the people will rise up en mass and a massive number of warriors will die not in combat but at the end of hunting rifle.
True-born Mech Warriors should remain as is but they need to taught to respect non-warriors and to undertake cultural sensitivity training ….
True-born Elementals should have increased by a factor of 10 - 20 at a minimum – Mass dropships and jumpships should have been created for this dedicated purpose
True-born aerospace pilots should also be increased by a factor of 10 – with a new larger Vengeance Class Dropship.
Their retraining – changing from a circle of equals to a world battle that could last months if not longer
But the real issue should be each Clan’s Free-born military – their PGCs –when you consider that each Clan is expected to conquer at a minimum of 100 worlds (whose populations can be 10 to 20 times that of even the largest Clan on one world alone) poses a massive issue – how do you garrison all these worlds if you are the Clans? – Strategy all large populated worlds must be garrisoned by True-born Clusters with PGCs to deal with their insurgents – and the smaller populated worlds must be garrisoned entirely by their enlarged numbers of PGCs units who’s internal structure must be modified to reflect this necessity.
PGCs
Mech Warriors in numbers similar to that of their True-Born numbers
Aerospace fighters in mass numbers to the changed amount.
However, rather than elementals – infantry in old Star League era power armor (similar to the Grey Death’s) – with weapons similar to the Star League Infantry and in numbers comparable with that of many RCTs – plus they must also be trained in anti-partisan warfare (As they will be given the dirty job no one else wants – dealing with future insurgents)
To this end both True-born and Free-born forces would also require support units and vehicles whilst within the field.
Thus if they do not recognize this by early 3020’s the numbers they can produce would be minimal for a protracted war within the Inner Sphere is doomed to failure.
And as such their need for mass medical frigates – where upon mass invasions with Inner Sphere forces they can shuttle their wounded to these MASH frigates for immediate medical attention.
The old guard Crusaders would never accept this – the new guard Wardens would see the necessity of reform otherwise they are doomed to failure …..
Thus I ask prior to the Inner Sphere invasion should there have been a Clan civil war between the Crusaders and the Wardens with an aim to reform themselves prior to the invasion?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/15/20 05:57 AM
101.185.93.54
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Question – If the Dragoon information was heavily redacted what happens when each Clan arrives within the IS and finds everything not as per the Dragoon information said it was.
Wouldn’t they be looking for someone to blame for the lack of information – ie the Wolves themselves – as it was their dragoons who doctored the information they were sent to obtain.
So right from the get go the other Clans should have censured the Wolves for their error - similar to that of the Clan Jade Falcon Vs Wolf war post 15 years of cessation to the Invasion?
The Wolves have little friends in the invasion – what if the other Clans demanded their removal form the Invasion and the immediate activation of the two reserve clans for their perfidy?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/15/20 12:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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I don't think the information was redacted so much as just out of date. 30 years is a long time for things to change, especially for clan warriors. That is more then most careers for those warriors.
As most already believed before the Dragoons were sent, that the information would be inaccurate, and down right wrong to begin with, I don't see many actually believing it. So this is even more of the idiocy of the situation. I would think they believed the Outbound Light crew more, as they were interrogated to get information.
I would think that as they started to bog down and lose more forces, they would look for any other reason then the IS was better then they thought, or they were over confident with their own abilities. But then, how many of them actually sent out their own recon? Waste would be the first thing to come to mind, but you are talking about intel on the enemy. If you don't trust the main source, why would you not send in something smaller to find out if the info you are getting is correct?
The clans did try something similar to your removal question. Censorship of Ulric himself with the treason charge.
But one possible reason why they would not try, is the fact that the clans unanimously chose for the wolves to be part of the invasion. To even try, would bring questions to why they even allowed them in, in the first place.
I know it was written like this to move the story forward, but what if the Wolfhound's ejection system wasn't a full cockpit, or a stray shot had actually killed Phelan? Maybe even Vlad just stepping on him to hide the 'shame' of even being hit by an IS pilot?
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Requiem
03/16/20 05:22 AM
101.185.93.54
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Timing – two missives were sent to the Grand Council - are just not enough .....
What information should have been included in these reports:-
Historical – all information regarding all of the Great Houses from the Exodus until the most recent developments;
Successor States – Major individuals, Companies, Military, Economic etc - Outlook for the next 5 years, 10 years and 20 years;
Sociological – an understanding of every world within the IS as per Successor state – their population, government, wealth, industry, trade, religion, belief structures …. Etc
Military – As per Successor States – Size of forces – Type of Forces (Mech, Aerospace fighter, Conventional fighter, Armor, Infantry Sea Warships) – Strategies – Examples of Battles – Battle history – timing when responding to a situation (war) – how fast can they move forces from one border to the next – Numbers – how many and type of graduates can be generated in a single year ;
Psychological profile of existing leaders – how they react – what to expect of them when you invade;
Media – what issues are currently trending / or in the past;
Communication – Interplanetary (Comstar); Planetary etc.
Technological development – current level of technology as well as expected future technological development – Military Industrial Complexes – how quickly can they build / rebuild industries / weapons as well as the type of weapon systems – logistics routes and general numbers
Transportation numbers – Number of Jumpships / dropships as per each successor state – what percentage of this can be expected to be used against an invasion?
Education – how educated are the people of the inner sphere;
And these topics are just the basics ….. a massive amount of detail is required prior to any invasion ….
Clearly, Wolf’s Dragoons did not have a dedicated team this extensive to produce a document this extensive. Plus if they did begin collecting all this information wouldn’t one of the Houses spy agencies notice what they are doing?
And in addition the Clans did not understand the information supplied – for if they had they would have understood that even with all the Clans invading at once they may be able to take a fare percentage of the Inner Sphere but there is no way they can hold the inner sphere – the number of their forces that would be required to garrison the majority of the worlds they hold, when they all revolt at the same time, will cause their military to implode – also they do not have the Jumpship / Dropship numbers to support such an endeavour - the do not have the industrial might to even consider such a grand aim – also their bureaucracy / police force required - they just do not have the numbers – when IS individual worlds alone have a population of 10 to 20 times that of individual Clans alone.
Then there is the issue of a 6 month minimum Logistics chain when they just started the invasion – and as more waves occur the logistics chain time will increases as the number of worlds are acquired - so that by the end of the 4th wave the you could quite easily be out to 10 – 12 months turnaround when it comes to logistics (dependent upon number of jumpships assigned to your Mecrchant caste).
How anyone can think the Clans can achieve their stated goals of Inner Sphere Conquest is beyond me?
The numbers are just not there to conquer and to hold what they conquer!
In my opinion if there is an invasion the overall aim of the Clans needs to be changed to something more realistic and achievable!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/16/20 12:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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In one of the wiki entries is said one of the clans brought up the fact that the last intel data was old and out of data. If I get ambitious, I will find that information and post it.
But here is a little more fire for the fuel. The FS portion of the states, is older then the information on the LC. The Dragoons left the FS for the CC after about 5 years. They had gone to report during that time. I want to say the LC was the last house that information got sent on. That was the one 30 years old. I don't think the DC was reported on, other then normal intel. No in depth coverage like the others.
Most of the things listed that should have been part of their information is things the clans wouldn't really care about. Military numbers, tech levels, and how they can move that being the main things they would be concerned with. The smarter clans would have been looking for some of the rest.
The Dragoons only did a real deep report of their current employer, which seems to be missing here. As I did not see anything about what was reported, the assumption it wasn't extensive is risky. For some things, I would suspect most of the clans would think numbers and such were bloated, as the Dragoons were freeborns in the Wolf clan.
The population size doesn't matter for most of the clans as they are used to their just being there, cowering the populations around them. This is something that seems to have been written in, to give the clans an achilles heel. And with the statement of How anyone can think the Clans can achieve their stated goals of Inner Sphere Conquest is beyond me? Can be answered rather easily. They were not trying to conquer the IS, just Terra. The erroneous thought that its fall would cause the houses to surrender. So the scope wasn't as outrageous as hinted at.
Now without actual numbers of what the clans had beyond the invasion forces, it may well be far less time to move supplies into the IS. They may well have had Lithium-Ion batteries as well as a large command circuit. A few power stations to charge the batteries would speed up the trip alot, as well as just having another jumpship waiting. With the implications in the books, it may well be they could have had several per invasion clan going on.
One more thing. It is possible they had large warehouses closer to the IS for necessities, or very common parts, like Armor and ammo.
The wolves had supplies coming in with a far greater quantity then the other clans. Is this because of larger ships/fleets moving the supplies? Or was it more fleets moving the stuff?
They made the gamble of making stashes deeper in the IS to do their blitz.
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Requiem
03/16/20 04:54 PM
101.185.93.54
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Quote:
the clans brought up the fact that the last intel data was old and out of date.
Population figures just increase
Sociology - psychology does not change
Fighting styles do not change as well as the duration of battles within the IS - numbers should be considered to increase over time – especially when it comes to vehicles, VTOLs and Conventional fighters
Economic – Logistics – transport capabilities are reasonably stable
The main issue would be Warships – have they begun remaking them by the time of the invasion?
How dangerous is it to commit a major invasion when your intelligence is spotty and outdated at best?
This is completely unrealistic to believe the Clans would invade based upon outdated information – how do you make your attack plans based upon outdated information?
So how do you garrison a single planet with a population of 20 times your entire Clans population?
Creating your information based upon each Successor State at the same time as you have a contract with them and not updating it when you move on is completely illogical. Information must be continually updated as to all topics being investigated – you never know when it may be necessary to update do to a new media release.
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Most of the things listed that should have been part of their information is things the clans wouldn't really care about.
If this is so then they have completely forgotten how important information is when waging war - all of this information is of vital importance – if they cannot trust the information provided there is clearly a problem here!
How are you going to garrison a single world who’s population is 20 times your own clans population if you do not understand their sociology – economy – religion – social understanding of how to treat them so that there will be a minimum amount of resistance etc
If you jus blindly walk in and demand they act like their own Clan serfs and within a caste system you are looking at an entire world going to war against that Clan Garrison unit – one night of rage and there will not be a Clan garrison.
It just does not hold water – two out of date missives is just not enough – if this was the case there must have been more problems than was just glossed over by the Canon history. It just doesn’t make sense at all!
Sorry to say but the canon history, in my opinion, is just too simplistic / too limited / has way too many plot holes to be considered credible.
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The population size doesn't matter for most of the clans as they are used to their just being there, cowering the populations around them.
And
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They were not trying to conquer the IS, just Terra.
The size of the garrison due to the size of the population when attempting to keep them pliable will deplete their numbers on the front line. So that over time they will run out of forces to continue the invasion. If you look at the numbers each clan bid to invade with you will see that if there was a sixth wave every clan would have run out of forces to continue with a seventh – every one of their units would be required as a garrison force – thus you would have to strip worlds of their garrisons (now making them vulnerable to attack / insurgency) plus the logistics chain would now be well over one year to get supplies from the Clan Home worlds to the front making their logistics stretched paper thin. So they would end up destroying themselves through over extension – Napoleon in Russia / Germany in Russia once more!
The numbers are just not there – they do not have the numbers to even reach Terra – the only way is if they activate more clans to take over worlds so that they can have surplus units to continue the advance – but in doing so doesn’t this increase the amount of infighting within the Clans at the same time – a point the IS will take advantage of?
The plot hole and the scope of the implausible nature of the history is just too great to be considered accurate.
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Now without actual numbers of what the clans had beyond the invasion forces, it may well be far less time to move supplies into the IS. They may well have had Lithium-Ion batteries as well as a large command circuit.
6 moths travel time from Clan Space to the IS – then dependent upon the number of Jumpships you have for your Merchant navy to transport goods to every world – or even just go to the front can be calculated based upon distance – with every new wave you increase the time required to get to the front – even with Lithium batteries it will take time or you could cause a miss jump and that ship just disappears, it is not as if you can use them permanently.
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A few power stations to charge the batteries would speed up the trip a lot
Problem:- the number of ships in the merchant fleet in comparison to the number that can be recharges at a single time (one?) Plus, how long does it take to recharge using a power station in comparison to using your sails as isn’t this dependent upon they type of star used?
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One more thing. It is possible they had large warehouses closer to the IS for necessities, or very common parts, like Armor and ammo.
True …. But this should also allow my Fenrir forces to find and remove them – something the canon game completely overlooked as an alternate game!
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The wolves had supplies coming in with a far greater quantity then the other clans.
No, they were using IS sources to supplement their own requirements as well as (as you pointed out) putting depos in advance of their fighting units so that when they arrived they would find a hidden depo to assist with the continual invasion. However what wasn’t discussed is what happens when these depo’s are discovered by an IS unit in advance of the Clan attack? Somehow they all miraculously remained hidden to the IS forces (TPTB once more?)
Another plot hole?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/16/20 04:55 PM)
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ghostrider
03/16/20 05:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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250 plus years of doing the same old thing, asking what troops defend what, makes you forget things like knowing the full amount of troops that can be called upon.
With the trueborns, they didn't care much about their own freeborns, so why even try to show any sort of caring to the IS ones? Just kill anyone that doesn't accept their superiority and authority. This is before they found out the IS wasn't like their own. They would continue to rise up against invaders, especially cruel ones.
History, with psychology, would be changed so their new subjects would conform to clan phylosiphy or be removed. No one challenges the warrior class.
As said before. The clans have had their little sterile fights, so anything outside of that puts them at a severe disadvantage. It would have been far worse if the IS had the tech beyond the SL crap they had.
The Ion-Lithium batteries are able to be fast charged. That means a much shorter wait time. This also means you can charge them up with fusion core output. As for how many can be charged at the same time, I don't know. I haven't seen anywhere that there is a limit. Just how much time it takes. I would think how much charge the station has/can make would decide this. Also the Diamond Sharks had jumpships come in with the invasion fleets. These are not listed as invasion ships, but you can bet they were full of equipment.They would be the most likely to set up something close to a command chain, in order to get profits going quickly.
The game did not overlook it, but used numbers you don't agree with. The clans did have raiders hitting their supply lines, but the clans didn't catch them. More then a few pirates showed up with clan equipment. The lack of canon ships kept the IS from doing much with this. But the insistance that the IS had all sorts of extra ships cause the belief they missed, ignore, overlooked, didn't want the clans lines to be hit. There was some opportunities here that should have been exploited but weren't. And I can see why, though I don't really agree with some of it.
The main things the clans could use was non military supplies like food and clothing, while anything military would have to be very limited. You can not strap an IS ERPPC on an omni and expect it to perfrom like the clan ERPPC. Missile launchers are a complete no go, as the clan versions were half the wieght. Ammo and none upgrade materials such as normar internal structure and armor being limited.
Also reread the part of the story line where Ulric DID have more supplies coming in, as he knew the IS would not be the short fight the others thought. This is part of why they got ahead. Less ammo weapons, means less ammo needed. No running out of lrms part way thru a wave. Most of the clans still hadn't learned that during the truce fight.
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Requiem
03/17/20 07:42 AM
101.185.93.54
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Quote:
250 plus years of doing the same old thing, asking what troops defend what, makes you forget things like knowing the full amount of troops that can be called upon.
For a society that places such high regard on tradition this is a real misnomer – didn’t the clans study any Kerensky / Amaris battles?
With the arrival of the first Dragoon missive didn’t they study the battles contained within in minute detail?
There is something seriously wrong with the Clans if they didn’t study this information – so why didn’t this foible be carried over to the Invasion? A complete lack of Intelligence gathering should have cause some major blunders during the invasion.
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History, with psychology, would be changed so their new subjects would conform to clan phylosiphy or be removed. No one challenges the warrior class.
No this an inaccurate statement ….
• Sparticus;
• Quinctilius Varus where are my Legons?
• Boudica / Boadicea;
• Joan the maiden;
• Mahatma Gandhi;
• Muhammad Ali …..
And the partisans throughout the entire human history ……
The warrior class is only strong as long as the people allow it to be strong – once the people remove this (assassination, IEDs, poisoning etc) they will find themselves the servants of the people!
Has any warrior society survived the test of time?
How can a few hundred warriors control a world whose population is in the billions?
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It would have been far worse if the IS had the tech beyond the SL crap they had.
Huntress? The defection of Clans Nova Cat and Ghost Bear? The capture of Clan technology as well as their technicians?
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The Ion-Lithium batteries are able to be fast charged.
Via their engines – over time this will cause problems …..
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Diamond Sharks had jumpships ….
From Sarna.net …. eight jump-ships ….
So not than many …… initially.
However over time as the attacking Clans expand their invasion corridor they will need more Jump-ships to ensure logistics to ensure a timely delivery.
Where is it written that the Clans were attacked by IS raiders? Was it just along the borders – Falcon / Jaguar or did they move into the centre Wolf and Bear?
Their supply lines are just way too long – once cut they will quickly run out of consumables leaving only energy weapons.
As for the wolves – “Ulric increased the flow of supplies and took the daring chance of forward deploying supply caches in enemy territory.”
From where did he get these supplies so quickly – why didn’t IS forces capture them when they were deployed in enemy territory, or how about moving these vast supplies in the first place ….
Where are my Fenrir forces in finding the Clans hidden supply depos hidden within the deep periphery?
Just allowing the Clans to win all the time is not what I would consider an accurate history ….
As for the other Clans if their logistics are this tight where is it affecting the clans performance at this time if they only have two reloads per mech? Surely the IS forces can quickly deplete these numbers – then what happens next?
This a complete nonsense of a history created for children!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/17/20 01:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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Study old League battles? Surely. But actually worrying about treachery in their trials wasn't high. Except for a few students, and a few other times, the art of one on one seemed to be the normal. After generations of being instilled in this concept, why would you think anyone but the Dark Caste wouldn't follow it? By the invasion, this was almost forgotten.
Arrogance has a lot to do with it as well.
For over 250 years, no one challenged the clan warriors. What happened before people left Terra has no bearing. Only the 'recent' history is required. And again. In the old days, there were nations around that would help with revolts, not those that are the same or even worse then your ruling body is. No help from the outside.
How does anyone control more then just a few? Fear. This is historically the main way empires rose. After a while the fear lessens or the rulers do enough that death is preferred over being a subject comes around by masses that are willing to do something. This is basic history and psycology.
How does things in the future, change the initial invasion? All military units being of upgraded tech, not the mismatched garbage the IS had when the clans invaded, would have changed the outcome long before the Huntress trip. It may have even resulted in the assault on the clans worlds before what would have been the truce fight. The Star League may not have been reborn if the clans were stopped cold. Only out of the threat of another invasion did the SL get traction to become a reality. Without the 'need' for it, I seriously doubt it would have reformed. But then with better weapons earlier, it may well have been a whole different IS by the time the clans came. Might even be IF they came.
Actually, space stations could beam over energy to the Ion-Lithium drives to fast charge it. Part of why recharge stations were important in the original SL. And while the risk was increased the more you used it, you could use this method a couple of times, then sit in one location doing the slow charge, removing the threat, much like using the MASC system. It may well be ok to use the double jump method going thru systems that just did not warrant a station in them, ie completely useless for the most part. Some would say any material can be mined for use, but costs being the main reason they ignore that.
The pirates, which I believe Morgan's Valkyries were one that had clan mechs. They were a complete bane to the Falcons, as the were raided by the Valkyries, and could not take them out. Basically what they did when the Valkyries raided the IS.
Ok the name is wrong. Susie Morgraine-Ryan of the Greater Valkyrate was the group the ended up with a full lance of working omnis. The did get defeated initially, but rallies the pirate bands into the New Belt Pirates. They are the end result with the omnis.
Edited by ghostrider (03/17/20 01:20 PM)
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Requiem
03/18/20 06:14 AM
101.185.93.54
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Quote:
Study old League battles?
Even in today’s military academies many ancient battles are considered
• Second Punic War – Battle of Cannae
• Hannibal, Scipio Africanus
• Caesars win over Vercingeterox – Gallic Wars
• Mongol invasion of Europe
• American Civil War
• WW1 and WW2 especially some of the Generals – Rommel for example
• Elastic defense in depth - Manstein.
• Patton – Battle of the Bulge
• Many of the battles Korea – Vietnam (French and American)
If the Clan’s have forgotten to train their people as to the basics they deserve to be out maneuvered when it comes to fighting on a world by world basis rather than within a designated circle of equals – and using dueling tactics.
Such a lack of training should have been evident during any major engagement.
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How does anyone control more then just a few? Fear. ……This is basic history and psychology.
Where has this ever worked?
• Vietnam
• WW2 Germany and Japan?
And then going all the way back to the Roman Empire
Long term I can’t think of any successful forces using fear as a weapon to control the masses.
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How does things in the future, change the initial invasion?
Military Intelligence – every five years from the dragoons so 20 to 45 – 5 missives
First the entire garrison question must be addressed - massive amount of PGS would be required to such an extent that their numbers would be greater than that of the True borns
Second the numbers and structure within each Cluster / galaxy would have to be changed
Third the fighting style of the clans would have to be changed
Fourth sociology of the clans would have to change in regards to the Inner Sphere – the idea of Castes as well as Fostering would have to be nerffed – caln warriors wound need to undertake a cultural sensitivy training
Fifth all clan personnel traveling to the inner sphere would have to undertake a couse to familiarize themselves with the norms of the Inner Sphere
Sixth 10 years prior to the invasion an expedition will be needed to be sent to the deep periphery to establish multiple Clan colonies to assist with the logistics requirements of the invasion
Seventh Massive amounts of HPG Space stations will be required
Eighth two massive Space stations will be required one in clan space and the second in the deep periphery to bulk break all inventory requirements for each invading clan
Ninth Logistics – massive Merchant navies will be required to ensure the logistics chain of each invading clan
Tenth – support fleets – medical frigates – jumpship repair ships
Eleventh – massive warehouses of Logistical supplies
Twelfth – Sibko numbers – massive revaluation given a loss depletion report whilst fighting within the inner sphere – either go to an academy style format or allow fore through via their trail of position – massive replacement numbers will be required due to the amount of expected deaths whilst in the IS – Elementals for example must be increased by a factor of 20 to 30 prior to their invasion aerospace pilots must be increased by a factor of ten
Thirteenth – support vehicles for their entire forces to ensure adequate logistical support whist in their field
And this is just the minimum amount required on the list due to the massive amount of information supplied by the Dragoons …..
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The Star League may not have been reborn if the clans were stopped cold.
Correct …..
With the creation of the Fed-Com, with the elimination of CC this leaves three Houses ….
At this stage there must be a major debate between the Wardens and the Crusaders
If it comes to light that Victor (as a child) will have an arranged marriage with Isis – and the Fed-Com will be merged with the FWL. The issue of continuing the invasion comes into doubt ….
Expect a Clan Civil war between the Wardens and the Crusaders …. As to the continuance of the invasion …. So depending on who wins will determine the next step ….
However if the war is won by the Wardens --- Fed-Com and FWL defeat the DC --- there is now a possibility that the Clan Colony within the Deep Periphery will make contact with the new Star League in an effort to join ….
If the Crusaders win – all remaining Crusader Clans would regroup – rebuild and then invade at the same time …..
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Space Stations
How many remain within the IS – also if the Clans are going to build HPG stations are they going to built a recharge function into them to decrease the logistics time to the deep Periphery.
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Morgan's Valkyries
Never heard of them ….. and not on Sarna
Susie Morgraine-Ryan – first I have read this, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/18/20 11:38 AM
66.74.60.165
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Still stuck in the past? Ancient wars on Terra have some tactics that are used, but where in any of those battles did you have the ability to bring in forces from other worlds? In system on up to light years away? Where you can strike and run within minutes, yet take down large chunks of the city with a few units? Or drop those units from orbit? Not one time shots like missiles or bombs.
With this next section, I would suggest you reread your posts before hitting the continue button.
Military Intelligence – every five years from the dragoons so 20 to 45 – 5 missives
When did the Dragoons top sending intel? 15 years after they got to the IS? Say 3 times with the 5 year window.
Also the math is off. 20 to 45 years is not 5 missives. It is 4 to 9. They arrived in 3005 and stopped sending in 3020.
But in all of this, how can you change the beginning of things when the end hasn't been done? Applying the end results to change the battle that hasn't even occurred yet is the problem with most of the responses.
This is like saying the Japanese did execute the German scientists that helped get the A-bomb working. Just to change the end result that could not have been known at the time of them bombing Pearl Harbor. That is where most of the misunderstanding seems to be coming from.
Cultural sensitivity training. Really. Who in the clans would have any knowledge of this, much less care about freeborns? Do you honestly think the trueborns would treat the IS barbarians and better then their own flesh and blood?
As you like saying about the superior race. They do not bother with things like how others feel. They are to rule or they are to destroy all that oppose. Getting along with the lessers isn't an issue. This is why they all fail. Piss off enough people and they all come at you at once. Not separately.
Why do you think every HPG is in space? Most are on the ground. So recharge stations are not added to them. They can be completely separate things. And planned out right, you only need a recharge ever third jump. Full recharge for normal drive and batteries, jump twice, recharge the batteries at the third, jump and do normal recharge. You cut out 2 out of every 3 weeks.
As the edited part of the last response says, I got the name wrong. The New Belt pirates were the ones with the clan omnis. They were formed from the Greater Valkyrate, which Susie was in charge of, but was destroyed in the initial clan invasion, with other pirate groups joining them.
The actual name of the unit before the Greater Valkyrate is Morgraine's Valkyrate,
I thought Morgans, not Morgraines. That is my mistake.
Edited by ghostrider (03/18/20 11:40 AM)
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Requiem
03/20/20 01:03 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
Still stuck in the past? Ancient wars on Terra have some tactics that are used, but………..
These tactics form the basis upon with all others are formed …. they allow those that study them to understand why one force wins or looses ….
A concept every great tactician must understand – the ground – the people – the weapons technology – the logistics – some concepts never change …..
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The Dragoon Missive
Cannon – two missives ….
and, (3045-3020)/5 = 25/5 = 5
Question if they stopped sending responses why wasn’t a second reconnaissance mission sent? Clearly the Clans have no concept whatsoever as to what Military Intelligence Represents.
Any military requires a clear understanding as to their target and their capabilities. Without this clear understanding the clans are running blind and they deserve whatever happens to them …. Ie their first attack group will be obliterated within the first 3-5 years of the war.
J. Robert Oppenheimer – Born New York City April 22 1904
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Cultural sensitivity training. Really. Who in the clans would have any knowledge of this, much less care about freeborns? Do you honestly think the trueborns would treat the IS barbarians and better then their own flesh and blood?
This is where military intelligence comes in together with psy-ops – if the clans do not treat the people of the IS with dignity and respect the same way as the DC and the FS do when they conquer each other’s worlds you are going to end in Ireland during the time of Troubles scenario and they have never had the forces or the knowledge to police this scenario.
If they cannot recognize this on their own (ie their own failings) before they enter the inner sphere from the military intelligence they have gathered – again they should suffer the same consequences due to their actions.
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Why do you think every HPG is in space? Most are on the ground. So recharge stations are not added to them.
Go back and re-read …. Discussing Clans HPG space stations placed along the exodus road and ending at each entry way into their invasion corridors to allow communication with their advance invasion fleet all the way back to the Kerensky Cluster and the Hall of Khans to report on battle updates and logistics requests – they are in space and they can have a recharge station attached.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/20/20 01:57 AM
66.74.60.165
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Were you trying to say 5 misses? As in didn't report in that time?
It sounds like you were saying each intel update was a missive.
There is different levels of winning or losing wars. You can win military victories, but end up losing wars. And vis versa. Knowing how to position water fleets is great, but when there is no water sources or worse, nothing near those sources, the skill is pretty useless. In air combat, especially space, most ground commanders use front/back left/right for combat tactics. They forget up/down as well.
But to suggest that ancient battles would decide the outcome of battles in the future with tech that isn't even around yet, isn't going to work as well as you would hope. Any of those historic battles listed did not have to deal with orbital bombardments, or even the enemy being able to drop more then infantry from any height. A mech unit can halo drop behind your lines or one units that are relatively alone. A unit of even a lance is far more deadly then an infantry battalion during all of those wars. And you don't have to worry so much about supply lines when doing so. You land, and pick the unit back up to rearm and drop elsewhere.
And with this, a single shot can change the outcome. In ancient wars, that wasn't really the case. A properly run military would have second and third in charge be able to take over. But in the game, it can destroy your most powerful unit.
In the ancient wars, you didn't have to worry about an enemy running literally over you, stomping on you and your unit until you are paste.
So they create a solid platform, but are not the end all for game tactics.
For a unit that is out to control a place or destroy it, there isn't much needed to know how the people will react. Dictatorships tend to do that. Follow my orders or die. Very few were overthrown without some sort of outside help. So few that it is foolish to even think of trying unless you have everyone rise up at once. And that isn't likely to happen.
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Requiem
03/20/20 03:25 AM
1.158.222.248
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Consider reading
https://www.hoover.org/research/why-should-we-study-war
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/23/20 07:40 PM
1.158.222.248
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Natasha’s Black Widows
Situation, during the War of 3039 Natasha Kerensky utilized her Black Widows on Hall against the 18th Marik Militia – what was so unique about this battle was her units configuration – rather than each company comprised of twelve ‘Mechs, was now comprised of fifteen and termed a “trinary”.
This unique configuration would remain for the next eleven years and would be noticed by every unit that they engage ….
Fast forward eleven years and the Clans Invade – and what is noticed is that they too operate in a fifteen Mech Company which is also called a “trinary”.
At this stage every intelligence organization within the Inner Sphere should have been requesting answers from Dragoons and Natasha …..
But it appears that she has skipped Outreach for parts unknown …… and why she would return to the Clans when for the past 45 years she has been fighting in the Inner Sphere as a mercenary and she is now in her sixties (past here use by date and should be assigned to a Solhama) – and a Totalitarian Regime (so her belief in the freedoms the people of the Inner Sphere have must be brought to question when by her actions she believes it would be best to put everyone into a Caste – or was it her plan all along to get her Wolves to fight for the Inner Sphere as seen by Phelan’s Khanship).
But I digress – at this similarity why didn’t Hanse demand a Court of Inquiry in which Jamie Wolf would have to explain his actions as it is clear at this point that his Dragoons do have a relationship these new Invaders.
All of these Wolf units as well as their people who were off world at this point in time should have been put under lock-down until this issue was resolved.
So why, as per the Canon, did they do nothing?
Can we say oops once more?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/24/20 02:58 AM
66.74.60.165
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Have you actually read the books?
It was said in print, Natasha returned to the clans during the recall because she was the ONLY bloodnamed person in the unit. She felt it was her duty, as she could do more to stop in then being in the Dragoons.
Now with canon, the lack of intel was horrible. But still you don't believe it. Written in a lot of books and yet the belief that they were omnipotent and could see all, including the future.
Let's see. The Dragoons have been reliable mercs for the entire time they were in the IS, and they did tell the IS that the clans sent them. As there has not been any treachery from the Dragoons against the IS, and their fierce killing of their own, suggests they have broken away from the clans. People do that at times. History of humanity and such.
Arresting them would have done what?
Pissed them off? Get them to sign on with others, while boycotting you?
Maybe even get the other houses upset with you, as they liked the service they have gotten.
The whole idea of this is bordering racism.
Someone comes from a location, then that location goes to war with you, so that means those that broke from them are guilty that their home lands attacked.
So that would mean genocide of anyone living on the worlds taken as all worlds should be in a constant revolt.
And they did things. Just not successful, like getting spies deep inside the inner workings of the Dragoons.
Some of them were arrested before and after the IS knew they were clan. Normal crimes. Not persecution because someone else did something.
But I do agree that there should have been more suspicion when the clans invade with the Widow's configuration.
Does that mean Comstar was part of their invasion plan as they use units with 6 in them? Are they some secret Star League? Must be. Wait. WOB used that configuration... GET THEM!
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Requiem
03/24/20 06:57 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
Natasha returned to the clans during the recall because she was the ONLY blood-named person in the unit. She felt it was her duty, as she could do more to stop them than being in the Dragoons.
This is only achievable via three ways
(i) Rank – and only as Khan – The Khan is the only person who can make policy changes to the Clan (Being a Totalitarian Regime it comes with some major flaws);
(ii) Sabotage – internally putting the ‘kybosh’ on the entire operation from within; and
(iii) Spy – the ability to acquire sensitive information that will hinder their advancement into the Inner Sphere.
In all reality, given her age as well as the company she has kept for the past 45 years – her political power within the Wolves would rank one step over a Sur-rat. Making it highly unlikely she would get anywhere with the Wolves …. Plus once it became common knowledge within the Inner Sphere she is with the Clans and is operating within a front line unit the bounty on her head would be astronomical – plus many units would head hunter from the get go!
Thus her ability to survive would be next to nil long term!
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the lack of intel was horrible.
Worse than horrible …. It is nonexistent being 30 years out of date!
As written within the books, it completely overlooks this fatal flaw …. yet again!
The writing should have reflected their non-existent intelligence!
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The Dragoons have been reliable mercs for the entire time they were in the IS, and they did tell the IS that the clans sent them.
Yes, during the year of “peace” …. So what about before this? From the day any IS unit received intelligence that they describe their 15 Mech Companies as a ‘trinary’ this should have identified the Dragoons as having a relationship with these new invaders – and as such they should have been brought before a Court of Enquiry within the earliest days of the invasion – and when id didn’t occur it shows TPTB were playing with reality once again.
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Arresting them would have done what?
Japanese civilians during WW2 – Potential fifth Colum? – Finding out the Truth would be a start.
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Pissed them off? Get them to sign on with others, while boycotting you?
Loose Outreach and everything on it for a START. – When the only contract in town is against the invaders what are they going to do?
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The whole idea of this is bordering racism.
How? Sorry but I don’t understand this.
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Someone comes from a location, then that location goes to war with you, so that means those that broke from them are guilty that their home lands attacked.
How? Unless they can explain their position to the powers that be – ie. Hanse Davion.
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So that would mean genocide of anyone living on the worlds taken as all worlds should be in a constant revolt.
You have lost me again … please explain again with this statement and the following paragraph .
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there should have been more suspicion when the clans invade
Arrest followed by a tribunal at the minimum
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Does that mean Comstar was part of their invasion plan as they use units with 6 in them?
Six was the original SLDF Lance complement – Company was therefore eighteen …. So anyone using this configuration would have been seen as nostalgic …. The only other time this configuration was used was by Hanse’s special light units when attacking Goliaths ….
No matter how this is sliced, this is a major stuff up – every intelligence agency within the Inner Sphere would demand the Dragoons explain themselves, given their apparent connection to the enemy, within the opening months of the war. By not doing so shows a complete lack of understanding as to military intelligence / Policy procedures.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/25/20 03:19 AM
66.74.60.165
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You forgot one very important thing Natasha could do to screw up the other clans. Become a warrior and fight against them. Trails of refusal and Grievance comes to mind. Ulric could have used her to destroy most of the others opinions of how easy it would be to take the IS.
Non intelligence?
The people that made the game, and you not only bought it, but continue to buy it, yet you say it's garbage?
Wow. That's just messed up.
The lack of intel was on all sides of the conflict. Or just out of date before they get it. But to have any sort of game, it has to have poor intel as well as sensors. There would be no way to ambush a unit if they had real sensors.
Loose Outreach? Mistype something?
The bordering on racism is suggesting that the Dragoons be arrested and convicted on the actions of someone else, just because they are clan. No real trial here, just arrest them. This is on top of them being one of the most reliable mercs showing when they say they broke away from the clans, it would be taken as the truth.
The Dragoons DID tell them what was up. A little late, as they should have said something when the clans first hit the IS, but then the knee jerk reactions like the ones you are suggesting, would doom the IS to lose. Sending troops to take out the Dragoons, means hurting yourself, and the only ones that KNOW what is up. So cut your nose off to spite your face some more here.
The idea of genocide of worlds would be the logical outcome of not trusting someone because they aren't from your entity. So the clans logical end to the suggestions put forth, would be kill everyone on the planet, so you don't have any revolts coming up. They aren't us, so don't trust them at all.
Interesting that they changed the SL lance to 6 units, when everything in the books points to 4. Dropships having a factor of 4, with almost everything else doing the same. So when did they change this? I know it's retconned in.
A lack of policy?
Do you not understand a thing about the world and the way it works?
You deny everything, and lie like hell for military intel. Otherwise, you might as well just sign over everything you own, and become the leaders pet.
I agree, there should have been some major inquiries as well as harsher actions to find out what is up, but arresting them and putting them on trial is too far. If you were going to arrest them, you would not do it in public. Even with that, arresting the ENTIRE Dragoons would be impossible without a fight. Something all sides want to avoid.
If they got up to 5 regiments again, 3 to 1 suggests 15 regiments to take them out. Not including their warships. And this also is saying that no other house steps in to help them. This fight is the worst outcome that could happen at the time of the invasion.
But again. Still clinging to canon for some reason.
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Requiem
03/25/20 07:56 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
Become a warrior and fight against them. Trails of refusal and Grievance comes to mind.
How? When as a warrior of a military unit you require your immediate C.O.’s approval (Chain of Command) – so depending upon her immediate rank and then the unit she is assigned to, this will limit her ability to do nothing other than what she is ordered to do by her immediate C.O.
Quote:
Ulric could have used her to destroy most of the others opinions of how easy it would be to take the IS.
Doubtful, like Phelan she will be seen as an aberration not an example of the existing Inner Sphere warrior – plus if he did it would be like putting a target on her back politically; every Clan Wolf warrior would immediately resent her (Office Politics), so her political standing goes from one above sur-rat to sur-rat.
Quote:
Non intelligence?
Clans should have had no intelligence regarding:- If they hadn’t captured the ComStar Vessel Outbound Light ….
- They wouldn’t know where the best place to start the invasion corridor would be – it is just by happenstance that it was right on top of the FRR – as they should not have known that the FRR even existed, as far as they should have known it was either part of the Lyran Commonwealth or the Draconis Combine – for they would not even known the existence of the Fed-Com. Thus as they did obtain the Outbound light they might have a rough understanding.
- Existing units experience / size / weapons / strategy etc – all can change in 30 years
- Where the borders currently are – are they in Fed-Com / FRR / DC space and as such what would the sociology of the population be
- How many maps as to the terrain upon every world could they have and how out of date could they be – also what about any structural changes made by the local garrison?
- Population densities could have changed in 30 years <and yet in the canon version this was never even considered a factor.
- Also what is in front of their invasion how many units? Who they are , their composition, their experience
- How about how long it would take to move forces around so that in steed of fighting just one RCT you are now fighting two or even three all hidden on one world laying doggo ….
- The idea of moving an invasion fleet forward and you have no idea of what is there when you arrive shows a complete lack of understanding
- What about the IS sending forces parallel to the invasion corridor to attack your rear – they have no flankers whatsoever looking out for this thus opening their rear to attack and the possibility of cutting their logistics
- They have no idea as to the production capabilities the IS is able to produce – thus they have no idea if the IS can out produce them and as a consequence fight a war of attrition.
- They have no idea as to the number of graduates that each state can produce each year – attrition warfare implications
Do I really need to go on – stepping into the IS without a clear understanding as to their full capabilities is completely ludicrous!
As for the Inner Sphere forces ….. everything about the Clans to start with and over time less and less …. Especially once that capture their people and they want to become your bondsman and then they want to tell you everything …. (as seen in the 1st Somerset Strikers)
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There would be no way to ambush a unit if they had real sensors.
This is why you have ECMs
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Loose Outreach? Mistype something?
Not at all – Outreach is in Fed-Com (Suns) space and if they did anything that could be considered treasonous – Hanse give-th Hanse take-th away.
Being considered a 5th Colum unit for the Clans would qualify as treason – so explain yourself before a court of enquiry or else!
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The bordering on racism is suggesting that the Dragoons be arrested and convicted on the actions of someone else, just because they are clan. No real trial here, just arrest them.
This is war and they have shown they were once Clan and are now behind their lines – what if they are just sitting doggo and are 5th Column – the damage the dragoons could cause to the Fed-Suns / DC manufacturing facilities could be considerable if they chose to attack – they must be placed under lock and key until they have proven themselves part of the IS – to do otherwise is just asking for it
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This is on top of them being one of the most reliable mercs showing when they say they broke away from the clans, it would be taken as the truth.
And how does any of the Leaders of the IS know this unless the Dragoons themselves prove it?
Quote:
The Dragoons DID tell them what was up. A little late, as they should have said something when the clans first hit the IS, but then the knee jerk reactions like the ones you are suggesting, would doom the IS to lose.
No … if approached rationally you could get a rational court of enquiry … however, if you send a cowboy expect the OK Corral.
Quote:
The idea of genocide of worlds would be the logical outcome of not trusting someone because they aren't from your entity. So the clans logical end to the suggestions put forth, would be kill everyone on the planet, so you don't have any revolts coming up. They aren't us, so don't trust them at all.
Isn’t this the idea that the future Clans came up with in 3150?
Quote:
A lack of policy?
This is where a little research is of assistance …. https://definitions.uslegal.com/m/military-court-of-inquiry/
Thus how a Court of Inquiry works, “such courts are not judicial tribunals …. It is instituted solely for the purpose of investigation , as an assistance to the President, the head of the Department {in this case the First Prince – Hanse Davion}, in determining whether or not any further proceeding, executive or judicial, ought to be taken in relation to the subject ”.
So what happens here … Hanse either sends a message via HPG or an Officer to the Dragoons on Outreach, there he has a sit down with Jamie – they have a discussion where the officer requests Jamie have a sit down with Hanse to discuss the similarities between the Clans and that of the Natasha’s unit – they also request to have a talk with her … then find she is not there, they then ask where she is …. thus it now becomes imperative that Jamie sit down with Hanse and explain the situation asap.
Until the talk between Jamie and Hanse is over the FCAF MAY quarantine Outreach with a fighter screen (and with a Black Box) – so what happens next is up to Jamie and the Dragoons. Or they MAY just do nothing considering all the years service he has provided the Federated Commonwealth. (Individual GM decision?)
PS – the Warships are still outside of the Inner Sphere and hidden away.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/25/20 04:05 PM
1.158.222.248
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Sun Tzu The Art of Clan Wars
Where’s the Playbook for the Fed-Com and the DC when combating the Clans?
By the start of the Third Wave wouldn’t you expect that the Fed-Com, FRR and the DC would be starting to developing an anit-clan Playbook something similar to Sun Tzu The Art of Wars Quotes?
A Combat Doctrinal Shift - each battle – each new clan person defecting / taken prisoner / made bondsman – more information should be added to the list – more changes should be made to the way the Inner Sphere retaliates ….
Where Clans have technological advantage the Inner Sphere must have numerical / tactical advantage – vehicles, armor, VTOL, conventional fighters / bombers, infantry, artillery … gang up on them en mass at a time and a terrain of your choosing – increase the ‘Mech lance from 4 to 6;
Where Clans have range superiority the Inner Sphere must restrict – choose your ground with care;
Where Clan’s utilize Warships …. The Inner Sphere has – Regimental Aerospace Combat Wings (RACW) – Bing Wings (and either nukes or their own warships from the get go);
Where Clan’s utilize a small number of Elemental Infantry Support …. the Inner Sphere has Infantry en mass (mass Battalions per world) …. the Inner Sphere has sniper rifle development corporations / they have SRMs (Infantry support MRMs at an earlier stage?) with inferno rounds (a higher temperature Inferno round?), partisans, commandoes and internal security force assassins;
Where the Clans are moving in a predictable straight line … the Inner Sphere has time to make every world in front of them a Kill Box – increase the number of RCTs per world … turn every word into a pyrrhic victory … and remember the Clans have no training against man-made Pillbox and their ilk – a camouflaged kill box trap;
Where the Clans terrorize the worlds (people) they capture with the implementation of draconian society …. the Inner Sphere has partisans, assassins, IEDs, commandoes, security force assassins … the Clans have a complete inability to garrison any world they capture - where the Inner Sphere knows what happens to a garrison that does not have an adequate base security force;
Where Clans use their PGCs to garrison captured worlds they are ill prepared for an attack by Inner Sphere forces in their rear … reclaiming lost worlds … cutting supply chains … providing freedom to “Free-born” warriors who now fight for their freedom from their former Totalitarian Masters ….
Where the Clans utilize a long chain logistics system, a system that is rife for cutting …. make your enemy weaker and mane yourself stronger at their expense …. Find it and cut / capture it either in the Inner Sphere or the Deep Periphery (remember the Lyrans use of orphans to damage Jumpships in the past);
Where the Clan’s utilize a Sibko system, this produces a Sibko reinforcement curve …. the Inner Sphere has attrition warfare and mass production of support weapons – including people;
Where the Clain’s utilize a Sibko training system the Inner Sphere has Academies and Boot Camps …. (1.) Removing warriors anyway you can until they reach a mathematical tipping point – lost warriors is greater than their ability to create replacement numbers …. (2.) In training their warriors they create duelists proficient in the Blitzkrieg …. they are not however prepared for the duration battles the Inner Sphere has come to expect …. They do not have the on ground support mechanism Inner Sphere Units are use to …. They only have their Dropships (Logistic support/ repair and maintenance support – as such their Dropships are now a primary target for capture / destruction ….. during the long battle;
Where the Clan’s society is based upon a Totalitarian Regime ….. the Inner Sphere’s is open and free …. consider their logistical support and their technical support …. consider the Inner Sphere’s use of Psy-Ops teams – consider assisting them to desert to freedom;
Where the Clan’s warriors revere all things Star League era …. They are ill prepared for the truth as to the people’s freedom during this era …. When confronted by the truth that their society is the complete antithesis of what the Star League stood for …. How will their people (non warriors and warriors) react? Could we see an uprising as people demand their freedom from such a Totalitarian regime?
And remember whilst the Inner Sphere is acting behind the scenes they have access to Black Box technology to bypass ComStar;
Remember the Inner Sphere can reverse engineer any clan technology … given resources and time ……
Remember what happens to collaborators …….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/26/20 03:17 AM
66.74.60.165
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Wow. Lacking imagination with the use of Natasha. Multiple trails of possession with her leading the troops would be a prime example of her being used against the crusaders. She might have to get an ok from Ulric, but I don't see that being that hard to do.
More human psycology being used. An old worn out useless warrior wiping out your best troops would be very embarrassing to anyone that is constantly losing to them. Puts a real bad light on the clan and their blood lines when they do it at will.
Interestingly enough, the clans learned about the 4th war as well as the Fedcom being made. The question is how? The 4th war was used to prevent an earlier invasion. The Dragoons being part of it, but after they last report makes you have to ask how. Then realize the Dragoons could NOT have been the only intel gathering mission. Or maybe Wolfnet was still sending intel. This is the part where the GM has to make the call. Not have it printed.
The word is lose, not loose. Lose means to go missing and remove from possession. Loose is opposite of tighten.
They were clan so they need to be arrested. Sounds like you would never hire anyone that has come from a society that has been in conflict with yours. So in Australia, you would never allow Japanese citizens to do ANYTHING in the country, as they came from a nation that tried to destroy the country. See how stupid this sounds?
Prove themselves? The long history of reliable service says a lot. But how do you think they should prove themselves? Turn over everything they have including the warships and all high level tech? That isn't going to happen, and to even ask would be insulting to any unit that relies on secrets to keep going. Including your own nation.
Did you forget that Hanse talked directly with Jamie Wolf on multiple occasions? Do you think they did not discuss a few things beyond what to eat while shooting the breeze? Not saying there were any good answers, but it had to be done. I am sure Ian had Hanse talk with them before they were hired.
Defecting clans men? Not likely, as they were still all warriors.
Bondsman? When did the IS even find out about this? It isn't like the warriors would say much.
Taking prisoners? You need to win and keep the prize in order to do that. Which didn't seem to happen in the earlier stages. At least in canon.
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ghostrider
03/26/20 03:28 AM
66.74.60.165
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The unit Wilson's Hussars tells you what happened to anything dealing with VTOLs. They were purposefully nerfed and left out of the game as much as possible, as it showed just how poorly mechs combat them. So it was not used for masses VTOLs attacks before the clans, why would it be used after the clans showed up?
Still not believing the IS didn't have the troops or the resources to move them, as well as the ability to strip worlds of defenses in canon. The alt might let you take cow patties and shoot them out at high speeds, to kill warships, but the canon doesn't. As this is an argument about why canon didn't do this or that, the alt doesn't exist.
Now here's something to consider. Has Comstar hacked into local networks and gotten the names of those that might be part of a resistance movement? So the clans would know more about it then you would think? Since Comstar would eventually take over themselves, it would be wise for them to have such lists.
Kind of funny saying draconian methods, as the DC DOES such things. So the difference wouldn't be that different. Might even be less harsh on some worlds.
As was said before. The IS DID reverse engineer clan tech. The excuse to not use it was the costs. So it isn't the question of IF they could. In this case it is TPTB preventing it from being used. Which is bs, but then as I said with this. They could not come up with anything to over come an IS with clan tech easily. WOB couldn't have done it if the nations had clan tech running. They got to the point that only greater numbers would threaten the IS. So aliens would be the next thing.
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