ghostrider
01/25/20 07:05 PM
66.74.60.165
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Mistake one. Thinking the enemy will blindly stumble into a trap set for them.
Mistake two. Thinking the enemy doesn't have the ability to see the trap ahead of time.
Mistake three. Assuming the enemy will go after the target you think they will in the first place.
The clans were not after depots or factories, but the actual military. There would be no need to have a forest fight if the troops weren't there. The idea of taking a capital on a world is still valid, but the clans are more likely to drop directly on it, then approach while on the ground.
Still not understanding the invaders were not going to have the front line forces control the worlds they took, but to have the PGCs do it?
And it was wise of them not to get into the nasty side of things as this is supposed to be a pg style game. R or X ratings would be there with the full descriptions of slavery, or assassinations being forced into the play side of it. The back story is meant to encourage anger against the enemy. Not cause the player to act like that. It is supposed to be the players are rising above the dirty combat role. But again. If playing the role of an assassin is your idea of fun, it doesn't mean we need to have it rammed down our throats.
The Vlad/Phelan point was when Vlad faced off against the Kell Hounds in his Timber Wolf, and Phelan had the Wolfhound. Where Phelan thought a single large laser hit should rip internals up as there was no way in the IS that a mech could hold and fire all those weapons at once, without shutting down, and have armor to spare. Then he ejected. Vlad was pissed off Phelan even got a hit in. But more to the point, the writer said Vlad had a weapon covering all the approaches except straight up the middle. Every weapon on the Timber Wolf, in most configurations can it straight in front of the mech. Example of the writers not following the actual game rules.
The commander on the world? The military one, or the political one? Both would have arguments about what is their orders, and one or the other has to win out. It isn't always the one you want it to be. Most of both sides would err to protect as much as they could. I mean a simple 15 mechs should be taken out with a vehicle battalion. Even a reinforced company of mech should win. Oh yeah. They didn't know the invaders strengths, and by suggesting they had forces in place means the fortune tellers was wrong. The local forces would not win the battle.
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ghostrider
01/25/20 07:26 PM
66.74.60.165
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Again. You have to know the attack is coming. Something that seems to elude you. In the opening waves, the defenders only found out about the clans when they were in the process of attacking their troops. The soothe sayer concept doesn't work in Battle Tech like it does a magical fantasy game.
Also, most units on garrison duty do not have dropships grounded for the express purpose of moving the units around. And even with that, it takes a while to load them up. But I guess the next defense would be having them pre-loaded so they can be moved on a moments notice. Most on world battles tend to have the units move by land, unless it has oceans separating them.
While asking them to move the battle, just ask them to surrender. That is just as likely to happen.
First off, there is no straight lines to systems.
Now the big one. They did not head straight towards Terra. If that was true, then the invasion corridors would only have run thru the FRR and not expanded outwards. More then a few attacks went back towards the periphery to clear up the revolutions and forces missed/bypassed. Have you even read the books and seen the way the story was played out? A lot of your comments seem to question this.
Wow. Maybe the implementation of those battle plans is how the clans beat them? Hit a battalion at a time and not the entire regiment? Or that the implementation has forces scattered all around the world. I mean the Germans had to guard the entire African coast, not just Normandy. Or did they move all their units to cover just that area? That's right. History doesn't account into this when it is against the wishful path of things.
And there wasn't months before knowing where the clans were going. They didn't even know what fell or when for the most part.
Only advanced warning came from ships that were jumping when the invaders came in for a while. More the a few worlds didn't know the worlds near them had fallen before the clans were dropping on their heads. But again. That would mean actually reading the stories. Or maybe understanding what they meant..
So you will place all your units in space, as they can drop anywhere on the planet? Sorry. Normal infantry don't survive without air, and vehicles need to be sealed to be in a void, much less floating. Guess 3d tactics isn't a strong point.
All warrior leaders got back into the battle in the IS house histories when needed. That is how a lot of archons/princes died in the succession wars. The fact Victor gave the power to run the government and would resume upon coming back wasn't abandoning them. If he was abandoning them, he would have gotten back or stayed in clan space and said I abdicate. No where did that happen.
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ghostrider
01/25/20 07:42 PM
66.74.60.165
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Case in point – did you see Hanse Davion jump in a Mech during the 4th Succession War or did you see him remaining on New Avalon together with his best and brightest people directing the war?
Seriously? The fact he jumped into his Battlemaster and went after the bogus Death Commandos himself, alone, doesn't count?
Though he did learn from his brother's Ian's death. He didn't run off into the main fighting, as he had to deal with the Combine and other issues. Victor thought he had two solid people in position of power before heading off to the clans. And how many of the lords felt a sigh of relief when he was set to lead them, and not someone else?
I don't think Melissa would abdicate to Katherine. She would have taken over the throne until Victor got back. Katherine was not viewed as a real leader in the FS portion. Being raised in the FS portion, and having his father emphasize on military tradition may well have hurt his standing with the LC portion. If not for manipulation of the press, Katherine would never have taken the throne. And to point out, Katherine did meet with Vlad outside of known media. But then if that isn't a case of treason, then nothing would be.
And yet, he did allow his people to survive by removing the threat of the clans invading again, or at least the push towards Terra. Had the Civil war not happened, then the FC would have removed the Falcons and Wolves after the refusal war. Oh wait. That nerfed the IS so the clans could take over later in the story line. What garbage.
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Requiem
01/25/20 10:01 PM
1.158.235.15
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Mistake one. Thinking the enemy will blindly stumble into a trap set for them. Mistake two. Thinking the enemy doesn't have the ability to see the trap ahead of time. Mistake three. Assuming the enemy will go after the target you think they will in the first place. The clans were not after depots or factories, but the actual military. There would be no need to have a forest fight if the troops weren't there.
Mistake one – thinking the enemy WILL NOT stumble into a trap; The ability to survive a trap depends on your enemies unpreparedness.
Mistake two - thinking the enemy has the foresight to see a trap in advance; and
Mistake three – setting the right bait –As stated the Clans were after the military – so use yourself as the bait – egotistical and vain are but some of their individual characteristics.
Your opinion of the Clans is based upon propaganda and not actual fighting prowess when an IS force is properly prepared for an upcoming engagement. As stated previously attrition warfare is the bane of Clan warfare – their Sibkos DO NOT have the ability to engage in a protracted war, where as the IS can.
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Still not understanding the invaders were not going to have the front line forces control the worlds they took, but to have the PGCs do it?
Question when were PGCs allowed into the IS … post Tukayyid … so from the start of the invasion till then how did they control a single planet. Also what is the make-up of a PGC – how many warriors does each contain? Still not enough to control a world …. when you compare it to some that have infantry in the thousands and vehicles in the hundreds and conventional fighters also in the hundreds …
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And it was wise of them not to get into the nasty side of things as this is supposed to be a pg style game. R or X ratings would be there with the full descriptions of slavery, or assassinations being forced into the play side of it.
… and this is the Clan you want to fight for? This is who you believe should rule worlds? … if they are “the big bad enemy”, then aren’t the IS forces supposed to win in the end?
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If playing the role of an assassin is your idea of fun, it doesn't mean we need to have it rammed down our throats.
Where did I say that? …though there are assassins in the game and yes you can play them … one of the Battletech magazines has a good article about the Ninja Black Cats of the DC.
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The Vlad/Phelan point was when Vlad faced off against the Kell Hounds in his Timber Wolf, and Phelan had the Wolfhound.
First, Phelan’s ‘Mech has been extensively re-built by Clan Techs to Clan level technology.
Second, The GM RPGing this probably asked for explicit answers as to what each character was doing at the time – and yes a person can (in a ‘Mech) put the heads up display aiming dot to each torso side of the ‘Mech and not down the middle!
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The commander on the world? The military one, or the political one?
You would follow the “Chain of Command”, so is a political representative a part of the chain of command, can you show me where a World Ruler comes is in the Chain of Command as I am a little ‘fuzzy’ when it comes to this as I haven’t seen the rank of world lord within the rank structure.
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Oh yeah. They didn't know the invaders strengths, and by suggesting they had forces in place means the fortune tellers was wrong. The local forces would not win the battle.
Then please explain Wolcott – this is an example of how to win the question that should be asked is why more didn’t use the same tricks from then on out … TPTB playing favorites again?
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Again. You have to know the attack is coming. Something that seems to elude you. In the opening waves, the defenders only found out about the clans when they were in the process of attacking their troops.
Even within Wave One a Commander of any Military upon any world would have pre-arranged plans for the defense of the planet.
Even Taft realized the need for Military Preparedness …
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25106660?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
… to think otherwise is ludicrous.
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They did not head straight towards Terra. If that was true, then the invasion corridors would only have run thru the FRR and not expanded outwards.
Look at an invasion map … no, it looks like a straight line from their initial invasion entry point!
As for missed / bypassed – did these worlds have any military forces on them?
When they missed /bypassed why did they do it? Didn’t they go straight for the most prestigious military unit in front of them? So again put out the right bait and they will bite!
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Wow. Maybe the implementation of those battle plans is how the clans beat them? Hit a battalion at a time and not the entire regiment? Or that the implementation has forces scattered all around the world.
Levity and supposition …
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the Germans had to guard the entire African coast
Please re-read history of WW2. Africa was fought over by the Axis and the Allied forces … they never won it to guard it!
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Only advanced warning came from ships that were jumping when the invaders came in
Question: After centuries of almost constant war - when an invasion or a war starts would the defending House have in place a signal (via HPG) to be sent to their entire military – otherwise how else would each House’s military be prepared for the upcoming war? And how would each Houes’ Lord know that a war commenced ….
Same here, they are invaded – HPG Message sent out … House Lord knows … military knows …
All units put themselves on a war footing …
Military starts preparing for the oncoming war … military information begins being sent from the front line to GHQ … GHQ sends information to those units it deems necessary.
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The fact Victor gave the power to run the government and would resume upon coming back wasn't abandoning them.
There are different forms of abandonment (an absent parent comes to mind) … so what are the attributes of a good politician …
https://www.news24.com/MyNews24/The-Qualities-of-a-Good-Politician-in-a-Democratic-Society-20130831
- securing, protecting, promoting good governance, accountability and welfare of all citizens-the governed.;
- required to implement social reforms and policy measures that contribute to the general welfare of the populace;
- Good and dependable politicians are delight to serve the people and consider themselves as servants and people their paymasters. They represent the hopes, aspirations and the interests of every citizen in the state;
- A faithful and effective politician is trustworthy and reliable;
- a good politician is integrity and technical skills to handle those challenging assignments, fiscal matters, policies, plans, projects, ideas and initiative solutions to problems;
- A transparent politician is nearer to his people and meeting them to understand their problems; and
- Have to use your talents, skills, experiences, honesty, integrity, challenges and constraints with the positive effect that we can have in touching other human lives. Politician must leave his constituency better than before elected.
Does any of these points represent Victor’s characteristics?
Honestly the only time he is in government he starts a war with the FWL and the CC when he tries to swap the FWL’s Lords dying (and then dead) son for an imposter … how merciless and vial action was this?
At this stage he is showing that an imposition of being far more evil than that of his sister and all for his own personal political needs!
And the next time we see him in a political setting is at the First Whitting Conference – where he agrees to assist the DC by attacking the Jaguars only and he completely ignores his own (currently his Sister’s) people who are under the yoke of the Jade Falcons and the Wolves … if this doesn’t show him to be incompetent as a politician what does?
The rest of the time he is away with his army, so in any sensible government how is he being an effective ruler?
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The fact he jumped into his Battlemaster and went after the bogus Death Commandos himself, alone, doesn't count?
No it doesn’t, he saw someone attacking aon his Capitol and he did the only thing he could, so he set out to defend what was right in front of him. He didn’t go swanning around within the Draconis Combine or the Capellan Confederation war zone within his BattleMaster as Victor did during the Clan Invasion and onwards ….
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And how many of the lords felt a sigh of relief when he was set to lead them, and not someone else?
… and how many Lords and common people were praying that the Clans didn’t kill him whilst he was in his ‘Mech leading the Revenants.
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don't think Melissa would abdicate to Katherine. She would have taken over the throne until Victor got back.
… the above premise stated that Victor was dead (KIA) or the Lords of the FC refused to acknowledge him as a candidate for the Throne.
So Victor is not coming back from this he is either dead physically or politically.
So who is the next person to take the Throne? The rules of succession state it Katherine ….
Also her taking the throne is way before the canon event of her meeting Vlad – so in all probability she would never have met him.
I would also like to point out that Katherine (The ruler of a House) meeting Vlad (The ruler of a Clan) to form a military alliance against a common foe is not treason – it is what you would expect from a ruler. Otherwise both her Mother and Father as well as her Grandmother (on her mother’s side) would also be on a change of Treason when they decided to merge the two realms together.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (01/25/20 10:02 PM)
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ghostrider
01/25/20 11:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Wolcott solution only applies to worlds like it. And the clans have since then learned from that assault. Not many other worlds could come close to that.
And seeing the battlefield from orbit, gives you an idea of what is there. The clans dropped onto Wolcott thinking the DC wasn't deceiving them.
Now mistaking the clans to suggest every single one of them is the same is a mistake. The Wolves, and to a lesser extent the Ghost Bears were better set up. The Bears screwed up by not allowing the people enough freedoms.
Timing is off again. The PGCs came in long before Tukayidd was even offered.
Maybe you didn't really understand the entire Succession wars. ALL houses did bad things. All houses were the evil in the eyes of their neighbors. Even the FS had taken prisoners and treated them worse then slaves. IE, Melissa sending the FS troops out of the Terran March before Lyran troops were even dispatched, if you need something new. I don't deny they are extremely harsh, but again. It isn't the first time the 'enemy' was like that. Katherine did the same thing when she took over. Delaying stuff? Nice way of making people suffer for saying they don't like their current ruler. That's right. Katherine had the right to be the dictator, because she took over. Freedom gives you the right to say you don't like the government. It however, does not give you the right to start violence just because.
The constant push that the game needs to have assassins and such in it, suggests that is the play style you want. The only way it 'needs' to have them is in the back ground. Players should not be forced into doing so, though that is a paradox as Head Hunting is such a thing. The only 'right' reason presented is it is against enemy commanders. They should be aware of that. But if you want to get technically, declaring war is sending out your units to kill the enemy.
You really think the writer had play tested the fight with Vlad/Phelan?
Maybe the Duke of the March? Guess the archon ordered the Skye Uprising, or other revolts were ordered from the appropriate capital. Hanse much have ordered Michael Hasek to give information of the FS to the CC. And more then a few world leaders were political hacks that had no clue on how the military operates. Some didn't even bother with it.
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ghostrider
01/25/20 11:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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Even a reinforced company of mech should win. Oh yeah. They didn't know the invaders strengths, and by suggesting they had forces in place means the fortune tellers was wrong. The local forces would not win the battle.
Ok. Where do you get Wolcott from this statement? This was a common misconception the forces had when dealing with the clans. One for one, the clans were that much better. Where in normal fights with other IS nations, a 2 on one advantage tended to go with the person with 2 units to the enemies one. When dealing with the clans, this turned out to be a deadly mistake. So expecting your battalion to take out a trinary of omni proved to be the wrong way to think. So losing units in chunks meant over all your superior numbers didn't do a lot.
Still not getting a clue on this? Pre arranged plans were set up against the IS forces. Spreading out your units so a single strike can't kill them all, and knowing their target was needed. After the leaders got together and learned the clans ways, this changed. The thing is, so did clan tactics. They avoided the large garrisons, only to hit it once they had no supplies coming in. Oh wait. They did that?
And all the planning does nothing when the first time you know of the invader is when they are firing on the units themselves? Precognition isn't something the game has in it. So you want to add that in again?
And you should go look at the way things are set out in the game universe. The RCT's were even split to cover multiple locations, which is how Pirates and such can raid a heavily guarded world. You might have 108 mech on a planet, but how many are guarding this mine, or that water source? A single country on Terra would be a night mare to guard. Just as you keep saying about the clans garrisoning the worlds they took. Now. How many forces do you use to guard the ones you got. Gonna be over an hour to get any ground forces there, as they will NOT be sitting on dropships. And non mech units will take even longer to deploy, once the dropship is grounded.
The entire list has the same answer for Katherine. It wasn't for the people, but for her. Victor used the excuse to stop the enemy from bothering them again. Katherine did it to expand her power, then would have caused all realms to fight the FC, with some of the FC going into a civil war at that point. Had she been voted to the first lord position, this would be the outcome.
Timing yet again. Having a contingency in place and having Comstar block all outgoing transmissions seems to have Comstar winning that one. The black boxes were NOT sent out to every commander and planet. No one figured Comstar would stop sending in unimportant worlds. Then it got to the important ones, and they had figured out Comstar was enforcing a black out. so again. How do you send out a message before you know the enemy is there?
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ghostrider
01/26/20 12:01 AM
66.74.60.165
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Merciless to whom? The Marik family? Yeah. That is true.
To his people, trying to buy time to avoid a full fledged war. Not so much.
And that plan was not initiated by him, but by his father. In the books he even states he was against it, but left it going because Hanse knew better. Oh yeah. The fault was not letting Thomas know sooner. Katherine would have used Joshua to blackmail Thomas, even knowing he was dead. That is the kind of leader you think is the best for the FC?
So in order to be a politician, you can not agree to help others in order to get help back? With the Jaguars done, and had the civil war not happened, they could have gone after the Falcons and Wolves and such. Might not have been as peaceful with the DC with that going on, but the DC would be obligated to help the FRR while the FC took care of 1 by themselves, and the second one helping the FRR. That is not saying people in the FC wouldn't be mad. But it does sound like a solid choice to get peace in the IS, and the new SL.
Actually, the rules of succession do allow the current ruler to choose their heirs even if they are not the next in line. Katherine's lack of military training would be a good reason to avoid her. The FS requires it, while the LC was supportive of it. The other children could well have been promoted. If it would stick, I don't know.
But it is surprising that you state the lord could refuse Victor, but yet they couldn't do so with Katherine. Pet project here?
Hanse knew it was a death sentence to engage the enemy with his single mech.
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Requiem
01/26/20 05:05 AM
1.158.235.15
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The Wolcott solution only applies to worlds like it.
If the Clans have since learnt from the assault then why can’t the IS forces also learn from the same assault?
How many worlds don’t have an area of land that restricts a Clans weapon range / movement advantage and allows for similar strikes as per that of Wocott?
Also how many commanders would customize their battlefield landscape? So unless the Clans want to sit outside and do nothing they are not going to get very far very fast. So whoever loses their cool first will lose their battlefield advantage ..
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Timing is off again. The PGCs came in long before Tukayidd was even offered.
Sarna.net – Ulric Kerensky – “the use of Provisional Garrison Clusters, which were technically not part of the invasion bids”
So some-time between July to September 3052 - Clan Wolf began using them – However The Jaguars were using them before this.
Question – when did both of these Khans decide to request these forces, as it takes 6 months or more for them to arrive from Clan Space.
And if their allowance is a technicality then why can the IS declare a trial to remove them?
Again if this is not TPTB favoring their pet clans on a technicality then what do you call this?
As even in defense they will be required to engage in battle which goes against the original bidding …
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ALL houses did bad things.
And how many of the original House Books discussed these “Bad Things”, and were these ever to be incorporated into the game?
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Freedom gives you the right to say you don't like the government. It however, does not give you the right to start violence just because.
There are some who would disagree …
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The constant push that the game needs to have assassins.
If assassination is so bad then add it to the list WMDs, Orbital Bombardments and whist you are there kill off all Commando / Special forces ….
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You really think the writer had play tested the fight with Vlad/Phelan?
Yes
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Even a reinforced company of mech should win. Oh yeah. They didn't know the invaders strengths …
Infantry Sensors with a range of 50Km for radar (at the minimum) + in addition to all other sensors that are available; and
Optical sensors – eyes mk 1 – depending on the binoculars and the position you are located can be even greater than 50Km.
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This was a common misconception
The misconception is starting with a two to one advantage – it is usually three to one.
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They avoided the large garrisons, only to hit it once they had no supplies coming in.
Doesn’t this statement go against their principle of racial superiority? So, no I don’t believe it.
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Precognition isn't something the game has in it.
You do realize you brought this idea into the discussion.
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The RCT's were even split to cover multiple locations, which is how Pirates and such can raid a heavily guarded world.
Sorry … but no , this premise doesn’t work ….
First the pirates would have to arrive via a pirate point as a Jump at the Nadir will alert the planet of the arrival of their ship through the wake they produce on re-entry;
Second, this is why you have a wing of aerospace fighters on alert duty (stuck in a drop-ship orbiting the planet – and on a rotation basis) at all times upon a heavily guarded world. Also as stated previously how many conventional fighters and bombers can a heavily guarded world have?
So I may have 108 Mechs on a planet spead out everywhere, but how many fighters does a pirate have is a better question - air superiority and being bombed to the stone age by waves of bombers comes to mind here.
And again … this is just supposition, it is not fact!
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Katherine …. wasn't for the people, but for her.
True, but how many people knew this … and of those who knew it how many would say it … and if they did say it, how many people would believe them given her very carefully crafted public image?
Where-as Victor allowed a child to die in hospital without informing his parents and then decided to cover it up by replacing the dead child with a substitute …
So who had the better public image at the start?
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Timing yet again. Having a contingency in place and having Comstar block all outgoing transmissions seems to have Comstar winning that one.
ComStar’s blackout policy related to worlds taken by the Clans – it did not relate to worlds that were coming under attack by the Clans sending out invasion warnings. As what would happen if proof was held that an invasion transmission was sent out and yet was never received by the Houses GHQ?
I would also like to point out that it wasn’t until Focht was sent as a ComStar Representative (Diplomat) to the Clans and a formal treaty was entered into did ComStar start its plans of darkening messages to and from the Clan OZ.
So yes the initial invasion warning was sent and it was acted upon, to think otherwise is getting a little far-fetched.
As for the Black Boxed – Canon has them being a rare item – however when a major house like the FC has a secret war with ComStar and you expect the FC not to put in place contingencies when ComStar retaliates is again far-fetched – any sane person would have a Black Box assigned to every Premier Military unit within the FC ASAP.
As for the DC and their Black Box technology – who knows what they would do?
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Victor
Even if his plan was to avert a war, not doing everything in his power to reunite a father and son as the son lay dieing in hospital, and then replacing the son with a substitute is an extremely ruthless and cold hearted decision, even by Katherine’s standards.
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And that plan was not initiated by him, but by his father. In the books he even states he was against it, but left it going because Hanse knew better.
Question: What was the “real reason” for operation rat against the CC – Could it be that the Capellan Chancellor wiped a man’s mind, programmed him with Hanse’s life data and sent him to New Avalon to replace the real Hanse Davion – so disgusted was Hanse that he designed Operation Rat and destroyed half of the CC in revenge (as seen in last book of the Warrior Trillogy when he sent a message to the CC with Hanse and the double at the same time.
So Hanse had a deep hatred of the ideas of doubles – so could this plan just be a hypothetical to which his gather never read – it was just found by Victor and he thought it was his father’s but in reality it wasn’t!
So,
Sarna.net Hanse Davion – “Died 17 June 3052”
Sarna.net Victor Steiner-Davion – “With Joshua Marik's failing health, Victor instituted a plan of his father's to replace the boy with a double by 1 April 3056”
So his father had died nearly four years previously – Victor just assumed it ws one of his father’s plans – he was against it, and yet he ordered it anyway?
So, if he didn’t get caught how far would he have taken this?
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Katherine would have used Joshua to blackmail Thomas, even knowing he was dead. That is the kind of leader you think is the best for the FC?
No she didn’t need to blackmail Thomas to get what she wanted – All she needed to do was set up a priority Jump-Ship route from New Avalon to Thomas as quickly as possible and be there nursing Joshua all the way – if they made it in time he would owe her a very big favor (even though she would say he didn’t) for the care and humanity she showed in getting his child to him with all due alacrity – Whilst back home the Media of the FC would be praising her for her humanity, love of family and chare given to a sick child.
Fast forward to a Whittling Conference in the future, to elect the next First Lord, – given the care Katherine has shown to his family would Thomas be more likely or less likely to vote for her based upon her assistance to his family in the past.
Remember sometimes you get greater dividends by acting the angle than that of continually acting the devil.
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So in order to be a politician, you can not agree to help others in order to get help back? With the Jaguars done, and had the civil war not happened, they could have gone after the Falcons and Wolves and such.
A FC politician cannot assist the DC in removing the Jaguars first, this is unconscionable.
The only action any politician would accept is the retaliation against ALL of the invading Clans at the same time.
Thus the need to rebuild new anti clan units with new IS Omni Tech – new IS Omni vehicles, new IS Power Armor, new IS Aerospace, new IS Warships etc …
Politically it is impossible to consider going as early as they did and with no real technology and no new anti-clan military units.
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Actually, the rules of succession do allow the current ruler to choose their heirs even if they are not the next in line.
Prove it! …my proof at the end of each of the original House Books we have a document entitled eg. “The Davion Line of Succession and Partial Family Tree” in which we see the line of succession going from Parents to Children from 2200 onwards …
If you are going to site Adam Steiner during the Jihad I have written a forum on that stating (and proving) the illegality of such an action – what we see here is a Coup by the Military over the Legal Successor of the Lyran Alliance.
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Katherine's lack of military training would be a good reason to avoid her. The FS requires it, while the LC was supportive of it.
How hard would it have been to give her reserve training whilst at University that would then comply with the FS rule – plus Yvonne never had it and she was appointed as Regent until her son could take the throne.
So the point is?
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But it is surprising that you state the lord could refuse Victor, but yet they couldn't do so with Katherine.
As staged above … rather than killing her mother (as she did not need to it) she sent her assassin after Victor, as a back up she also had her spies find incontrovertible proof that Victor has gotten Omika pregnant and an issue was formed.
Thus the next legal successor of the FC is now a half FC / DC child – The Draconis March would see this as treason – the Capellan March could go either way, Skye would have a fit and many planetary lords in the middle would also have a fit.
Whist at the same time Katherine’s people within the FC media demonize him to such a position that it looks as though either Victor and his half bastard child are removed from the line of succession or the FC could fracture into many small states (similar to that of the FWL in the future) Melissa would have but one action – remove Victor – preserve the FC (and for the SLDF anti Clan alliance) – then announce Katherine as next in line for succession ….
As for Pet Project … yes, she is by far a better character than Victor – Paradise Lost – Being Bad is more fun than being good?
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Hanse knew it was a death sentence to engage the enemy with his single mech.
On a world where you have how many royal units assigned as a security detail permanently?
Plus the cadet corp if how far away – and how many ‘Mech do they have – and how many teachers are also Mech Warriors?
No, he knew it was just a question of time before he was reinforced – and he got it in the form of Team Banzai.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/26/20 01:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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There are worlds that have things that do reduce range and stuff. Trell 1 had the metals that interfered with the sensor arrays, and that seemed to be on more worlds. And I would bet it was used. But there is only so much you can do with a few kilometers of lands verse almost an entire planet. The trick of changing names worked only a few times, then the clans stopped most of the challenges as they no longer trusted the correct information to be given. The bs of the whole thing was the inability to find the clans before they opened fire most of the time. And I will say it again. It was bs that they could only be found once they opened fire.
What do you mean use the PGCs? In assaults or as garrison units? It was mid 3050 that they were deployed by the Jaguars.
If I know right, Wolf had them on their way before they ok was given, and the fact the Jaguars had them there quickly would suggest they had the units close by such as on the periphery worlds waiting.
As for declaring a trial to remove the PGC's, that may well be why the IS only refused the war itself. Each clan would have to be fought to remove their forces. Not sure if they understood they could have required all clans out as Isorla. Though it might cause them to have to fight multiple clans in order to do so. The Jaguars were to stop the war.
They were not the basis of the game, as it was not set up for the succession wars, except the 4th. And yes. Planets are still irradiated, and the Kentares Massacre still hasn't recovered from that order. Other worlds still suffer from radiation around areas. Now if you were able to fight the succession wars, or even the Amaris war, then they would be. And all the original house books discussed the bad things. It was a backdrop, not the main story.
Those people that start violence because they disagree with the government normally, but not always, are strong man thugs. They want to use basic terror tactics to make all obey them without question. A few would be within their rights as the government uses eminent domain without any sort of a trial. Basically move in and confiscate the item, usually lands.
Ok. When, besides head hunting, has assassinations been ok? They have always been illegal that I know of. A lot get overlooked, as no one wants to admit they enjoyed it happening to some, but it doesn't change the fact it has been illegal. Spec ops are a grey area here.
You really haven't read the story have you? During the later parts of the invasion, the books all say the clans started bypassing the heavy military planets to hit other, then deal with the military, once those worlds were taken. Weither you agree with it or not doesn't change the fact it was written like that.
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ghostrider
01/26/20 01:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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The range of sensors for infantry far outreach those of the mechanized units in the game. That has been shown. Now having someone man them every second of the day isn't likely. Also, they would have to be in place to begin with. And again, the economy comes in here. Otherwise, most of the attacks during the succession wars, and all raids would have always been detected.
Misconception of numbers. How many of the scenarios has two almost equal strength units fighting each other? You rarely have anything that is over powered for long on one side or the other. So 2 to 1 isn't normal, 3 to 1 is only for big assaults, if you can get it.
And with that, it might be why the wars didn't go far. Few would have the 3 to 1 to do much. And numbers of nation units is misleading, as you need to have defenders everywhere.
I don't remember saying that the IS would be sitting or set up defenses before the clans attacked. I don't remember saying the planetary forces would be close together at the time of a clan attack. I did not say that plans should be set in motion to counter future events. So how is it I brought in precognition, other then to show the 'solutions' to canons problems was just that. Using the end results to change the parameters to chance the end result.
Not all worlds had fighter carriers orbiting them. Some didn't even have more then a lance. Now I did say RCT, so that is my fault. But it is known that their fighter wings have been sent off to do things without the ground forces. So I will give you that one.
RCTs have had a single lance guarding other worlds as they AO was regions, not just a single world. Even in the same system, they were guarding multiple worlds. Militias work for some things, but having front line troops make people feel safer, especially if the location doesn't have anything else.
There is some patrols and such that happen, but for the most part, the unit is in stand down mode. You will NOT be keeping everything you have on high alert all the time. Especially on a back water world.
From one example, it is suggested that a raid lasts less then a day. Detection, which is the weakest link in the game, has to be done as the raiders come towards or even drop from orbit. The next step is sending out recon to see what is there. Then responding with units closest to the raiders, with some units being moved to assume the moved off units guard duties.
Fighters are not the end all for preventing raids, or destroying the enemy. It is a very big factor in it, when dealing with dropships.
As what would happen if proof was held that an invasion transmission was sent out and yet was never received by the Houses GHQ?
Got to love this one. There has been multiple times that information never reached the houses HQ because of Comstars restricting it. The entire interdiction was one of those. The only thing that saved the FS was the black boxes, which mysteriously appeared then vanished when it no longer suited the writers.
And yet it was Katrina that found them, yet the LC couldn't keep contact with the FS? There is another loop hole for you.
Katherine would have blackmailed Thomas. It does not say did blackmail. Two words made the response moot.
Project Gemini was started soon after Joshua was brought to New Avalon. It was insurance to keep the weapons refit packages going to the front lines, as well as new equipment needed to fight the clans. Victor only left it in place. Again, it seems you have either not read the stories, or maybe forgot them all.
As a leader, you do things you don't like, as it is supposed to help the general population. Rationing in times of emergency being a big one. You want to divert all that is needed, but that creates issues elsewhere. And for most leaders, not profitting from every last thing is against their wishes. Diplomatic issues tend to be another big one.
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ghostrider
01/26/20 02:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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Ok. As they didn't write it in, or maybe decided to create new issues to avoid it, there is the probability that they were going to oust the other clans but never got the chance. The FRR, then the DC were in the most dire situation with the clans. The FC had the entire FS area pretty clear from invasion, but moving the troops from the FS to the front line would take months, possibly years without stripping the commerce areas again. Logic would suggest that compromise was done in order to get the counter assault done. It may well be the voting in the SL pushed for that, and 3 to 1 vote would do so. The FC being one vote, not two, but still out numbered by the others. To deny that vote, would be to destroy the League.
Actually, Katherine was more cold hearted. She just used the Joshua incident to put her brother in a bad light. Even though casualties from her actions were not written down, you can not tell me people didn't die from her 'delayed' shipments or riots started by her. Even the outright assaults that started before the actual civil war. But those don't matter, as it puts Katherine in a bad light. Victor was not perfect, but then none of the leaders were.
The first one that comes to mind wasn't Adam for jumping the next in line, but house Kurita. Even the SL had an issue that jumped the first child. It happens for the lesser leaders in the houses as well. But as suggested, Katherine failed the FS requirements to take over. She got them afterwards.
The point is, she was not qualified to run the FS at that time. You want the DC to strictly follow Bushido, but not require the same thing from Katherine? How is that keeping everything consistent?
One shot is alls it takes to kill a mech. Granted for the head it has to be an ac10, ppc, gauss rifle, or ac 20 and critting the cockpit. Plus you are talking engaging multiple units at once, with back up not being around for a short while. It makes a great story of being a hero, but if it was reality, I doubt he would have gone out alone.
And yes. I do understand there was security at the NAIS defending the place, so technically, he wasn't alone.
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Requiem
01/26/20 08:14 PM
1.158.235.15
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Here is where I have issues …
That the majority of worlds that were invaded by the Clans (post Wolcott) didn’t have a single area of land large enough to restrict clan movement and range.
Once it was understood the Clans had an understanding of Unit designations (House / Mercenary / Green / Elite) surely it would be expected that every designation would change to maintain security, even the Clans should have understood this. But what was not discussed, and should have been, is how the Clans came by this information (Pre Outreach Meeting with Wolf’s Dragoons). Wouldn’t there have been an investigation into the possible sources of this information?
As for giving up on challenges – this is how the IS has been operating for centuries, and is something the Clans have never done, so why don’t we see problems with the Clans when they attempt to establish and intelligence unit regarding IS units (which would be incredibly difficult for them to establish)?
Also culturally – How would their warriors accept being transferred from a battle position to an administrative position? Whereas within the IS military there are many roles that are never seen within a Clan military – specialists in the field - Intelligence, Psychological Warfare, Electronics Warfare, Communications, Cryptology, MP – Interrogations etc, Commando – behind the lines demolitions / assassination / information / people retrieval, even the IS spy should have run rings around any clan version of a spy ….. etc
Plus the scope of weapons available to the IS in comparison to the Clans … during the invasion they didn’t have artillery, infantry numbers were vastly different (so why can’t they have an anti elemental weapon?),The Clans didn’t have vehicles, The Clans didn’t have VTOL, They didn’t have conventional fighters / bombers, They didn’t have sea surface and submarine vessels …. Etc
In addition to hold a planet they would have had to use IS police departments etc …. So how many decided to go quisling and how many not per world … partisan activities?
The invasion, as written, is about as believable as the usefulness of a wet paper bag …
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What do you mean use the PGCs? In assaults or as garrison units?
This is also another problem in the game – believing the war only occurred on the front lines and that no forces were sent into the rear – for information gathering, raiding clan supply depot established within the IS, indentifying Clan reinforcements before they have been assigned to a unit (capture / kill), disrupting their logistics and attempting to retake worlds lost – causing front line forces to be sent back and slowing their advance …
Thus having PGC who are “technically” not allowed to be involved in combat (or is it the technicality is that they are not allowed on the front lines expanding their Invasion Corridor) within the IS are now confronted with an IS unit are they just to back off or are they allowed to engage in combat? Also can a PGC accept a challenge – “With what forces do you defend this world …”
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If I know right, Wolf had them on their way before they ok was given, and the fact the Jaguars had them there quickly would suggest they had the units close by such as on the periphery worlds waiting.
…and yet another good reason s to why my Fenrir Forces (IS forces sent into the Deep Periphery to disrupt their logistics) would have use, discovering a second army within the Deep Periphery would have been of great importance …. So when you ask someone like Jamie Wolf (Wolf’s Dragoons) or a Clan POW (possibly a Bondsman within the IS) what this means, I would like to ask could the IS have demanded a challenge then and there regarding the Clans use of PGCs within the IS, ie. they use their own rules against them, could they have fought the idea of PGCs by challenging each Clan individually?
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As for declaring a trial to remove the PGC's, that may well be why the IS only refused the war itself. Each clan would have to be fought to remove their forces. Not sure if they understood they could have required all clans out as Isorla. Though it might cause them to have to fight multiple clans in order to do so. The Jaguars were to stop the war.
And yet Jamie Wolf and many of his Wolf Dragoons would have known this ….. as well as any Clan POW (now possibly a Bondsman…)
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It was a backdrop, not the main story.
… and can it not be within the backdrop of the Clan Invasion … Kentares Massacre brought about the FS reversal against the DC …. So when the cannon states that there is Jaguar Slavery, then where are the DC retribution / liberation forces – the common people’s outrage and demand for vengeance – the upswing in partisan activity, no matter the cost, on Jaguar held worlds?
Two dimensional writing again … leaving out the “Bad Bits” so as to pave the way for the overall aim of allowing the Clans to remain within the IS permanently? (who’s a good pet Clan force then?)
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Those people that start violence because they disagree with the government normally, but not always, are strong man thugs.
Film … Red Dawn (Both versions) …. The Guns of Navarone …. Defiance …. The Train ….
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When, besides head hunting, has assassinations been ok?
Commando operations – sniper; Quislings; Reinhard Heydrich ….. as for it being illegal, has anyone ever been before the ‘old bill’ for these actions during war?
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During the later parts of the invasion, the books all say the clans started bypassing the heavy military planets to hit other, then deal with the military, once those worlds were taken.
This doesn’t change the fact that worlds, that had military forces on them were attacked – and these worlds were then given more time to prepare for an incoming invasion, thus more traps, more preparations …. So what would happen if the IS won these worlds … there will be a gap between one area and the next within their conquered territory …
The movement table suggests that VTOLs can only fly above wooded areas - so what would happen if you sent your infantry in and took the top off many trees so that you create an area where a VTOL can hover and be hidden from sight.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/26/20 10:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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As stated before Wolfnet was working before the Dragoons got into the IS. But one alternative possibility would be that the HPG network still had back doors from the original SL. So they got into it before Comstar started helping them. And with Comstars help, they had a huge benefit to understanding where the IS forces were and defensive positions.
The IS didn't give out challenges for fights, with the exception of some commanders agreeing to duals and such.
Hanse talked about the idea of sending their elites against the clan garrisons, while holding the omnis with what ever they could. He hoped they could take the worlds behind enemy lines and get the clans to halt forward movement to retake those worlds. This failed as the clans were not worried about taking worlds as much as taking Terra itself.
Guess being a garrison unit, and not assaulting other worlds hasn't sunk in. The PGCs or even other forces not bid into the battle, were not to take action against an enemy except for self defense. And they didn't play the garbage of sitting in the enemy's path to suggest they were defending themselves.
It would be foolish to think the clans didn't have reinforcements on the way. If for no other reason, then to guard supplies and take over garrison duties. The question would be when and how much. In canon, the risk of sending out raiders into the periphery was too great. Outside of canon, well depends on your outlook of what resources you have. Your alt has things like dropships and jumpships being as common as meteors hitting a world in an asteroid belt.
Jamie was in the IS for almost 50 years. In that time things can change. The idea of the rules of the invasion may well have been beyond even his guesses. He would know the basics of troop fighting skills and weapons for the most part, but not the over all battle plans. Yes, some pieces would be predictable, but not the general planetary assaults. Exactly what clans and how they would get here. And the Exodus path could not be that big of a part in the invasion. As said before, that would have them coming in from the AO direction.
Given the 'evil' combine overlords, who is to say the populations didn't want out from under house Kurita? For some, a new face behind the whip helps deal with the every day life. Not likely among all the population, but could help root out rebels.
Red Dawn was natives fighting a foreign invader. But I guess I should have said THIER government.
Yes the enemy would have more time to create traps and such, but in return, you are not dealing with a simple trinary. You would probably be dealing with a cluster or even galaxy, which meant far more units then you were hoping for. It is also possible that the Advanced Probes showed the clans a lot of them, making them useless. I don't know.
Now the VTOL idea might work in some games, but battle tech is limited in that as only the novel writers can do that and not break the rules. Basically any VTOL below the tree tops is considered to have crashed. Just like cranking back your mechs torso to give your arms more range, or driving a spike into the head of an elemental armor. Even the ability to blow up a pass by over heating a mech with no ammo, as the explosion creating a sympathetic blast from charges in the pass, yet fusion engines don't blow up.
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Requiem
01/26/20 10:24 PM
1.158.235.15
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The range of sensors for infantry far outreach those of the mechanized units in the game. That has been shown. Now having someone man them every second of the day isn't likely.
This is the military … they will stay there as long as they are ordered to do so … WW2 English Air Spotters … Radar Stations … or how about warships / submarines, their sensor operators don’t need to be there all the time do they?
As for being in place to begin with – this is all part of the SOP preparedness for an invasion and for any infantry unit ….
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… most of the attacks during the succession wars, and all raids would have always been detected.
Yes many should have been detected by both sides … this is why many of the battles should have been similar to the NATO war games … or any modern War Games Operations which is conduced to evaluate the preparedness of your forces as well as training to operate in concert with your allied forces ….
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…. Misconception of numbers ….
The 20 year handbook has the FC at over 260 Regiments and there were still many years between this book and the Clans Invasion … so there should have been even more created in this time …
You have the Invasion and what do you see – one on one fighting is near but pointless given their range, speed, armor, and piloting benefits
And during the invasion you do not see a build up of forces to counteract these advantages ….
You have the one year of peace
And yet again past this point you still do not see a build-up of IS forces / preparing the worlds to counteract these advantages ….
Then you have the 15 year truce and still you do not see a build-up of forces … to counteract these advantages ….
Would any sane military General consider taking on the Clans with a 1:1 ratio?
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And numbers of nation units is misleading, as you need to have defenders everywhere.
What is misleading is belief you needed a vast military upon all your borders at all times –
With the agreement between Hanse and Theodore during the earliest days of the invasion this became moot.
With the Kells and the Wolves defense of Luthien this was once more proven to be moot.
With the signing into existence of the new SL and the establishment of the SLDF this once more became moot
Fighting 3:1 against the Clans is very possible ….
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Not all worlds had fighter carriers orbiting them. Some didn't even have more then a lance.
Modified Union, Modified Overlord ….
How many satellites ….
And on the ground how many conventional fighters and bombers? How many VTOL? ……..
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RCTs have had a single lance guarding other worlds as they AO was regions, not just a single world. Even in the same system, they were guarding multiple worlds. Militias work for some things, but having front line troops make people feel safer, especially if the location doesn't have anything else.
Again this is but pure supposition … no general would divide their forces to such an extreme … this is BS.
Has any military in any age divided their forces like this?
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You will NOT be keeping everything you have on high alert all the time.
Yes I will for those that are within two / four jumps of the Invasion Corridor, and yes they will have a pre-arranged combat location, they will concentrate their forces, they will have every sensor ready to opera on a moment’s notice.
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F ighters are not the end all for preventing raids, or destroying the enemy. It is a very big factor in it, when dealing with dropships.
And this is wht RCTs have elements from every military organization attached to them – with the exception of Naval Vessels (sea).
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As what would happen if proof was held that an invasion transmission was sent out and yet was never received by the Houses GHQ?
In the first wave how many worlds were attacked – and they all would have sent out an invasion warning – if none of them were received by GHQ what would each Houses Lord do to ComStar in retaliation …. An interesting question … but at the earliest stage of the invasion even ComStar did not know who they were so why would they stop multiple invasion warning messages?
Also, each House has a Precentor and a Precentor’s power is related to the number of worlds under their care, and I addition to this one of their primary duties is maintaining their precious image of being a humanitarian organization that does not take sides.
So if they were caught doing this to every great house at the same time – their complete and utter destruction as each great House Nationalizes those HPGs within their Empire.
Though the real question should be what would those who have decided to work for ComStar do if they were asked to betray the people / the sate they have lived with for so many years – would they obey and stop the message or would they send it on – and the more HPGs that are ordered to do this, isn’t there a chance of a new schism within ComStar over their refusal to obey a clearly illegal order by the First Circuit or by the Primus or by individual Precentors?
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yet the LC couldn't keep contact with the FS
…and yet Katherine built a serried of HPG stations so that she could talk between the two capitals in real time?
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Katherine would have blackmailed Thomas.
Blinkered vision of Katherine?
My version of her is an individual who is far more devious that a individual who no matter the situation goes for the most evil and illegal strategy … who wants to hurt people every second of the day, just because she can ….
Sorry, but this is not my vision of her … there are many evil females within literature / films that could be used as inspiration when creating a vision of who she is ….
Sarna.net – Operation Doppelganger – “After Joshua died in 3057, Victor Steiner-Davion was afraid that Thomas Marik would stop providing these military supplies. With this thought in mind, Victor ordered the creation of a double for Joshua Marik to disguise his death.”
Victor is in charge …the buck stops with him … he must take total responsibility for his actions and this is not a Diplomatic issue it is a selfish act designed to help his military over that of everything else!
Trying to put a positive spin on his actions will not work, that is unless you agree that everything Katherine did is equally a positive action that is supposed to help the general population!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (01/26/20 10:47 PM)
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Requiem
01/26/20 10:48 PM
1.158.235.15
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There is the probability that they were going to oust the other clans but never got the chance.
No, the books were clear on this point when the military council reported to the Star League members – only one Clan.
A point no politician from any of the Houses could have accepted – it is political suicide – you might as well have called each leader on the Star League “Muggings” !
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Actually, Katherine was more cold hearted. She just used the Joshua incident to put her brother in a bad light.
Sorry but I disagree … Victor did this all to himself and he deserves what he got!
If there are no casualties written down how can we say there any to begin with?
Who has the final legal authority over all of the military? The ruler of the House? So if a unit says no, and disobeys her orders, is she allowed to send in the MPs / Military Unit to arrest those Officers and Enlisted Personnel who have defied her legal orders?
Or are you saying any military unit at any time is allowed to defy any order given to them by an Officer of a greater rank?
i.e you are allowed to go rogue at any time and work for any other Lord that you want to do so?
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The point is, she was not qualified to run the FS at that time.
And Yvonne was? Both before and after she was married?
The point is Katherine did get her qualification – when and how she got them is immaterial – the point is she did get them …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
01/27/20 12:46 AM
1.158.235.15
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Wolfnet was working before the Dragoons got into the IS
Correct, but there are two incarnations of Wolfnet …
First, there is the Wolfnet of Wolf Dragoons who’s abilities surpass all Inner Sphere Houses and ComStar’s Intelligence Agencies abilities;
Second, there is the Wolfnet of Clans Invasion who’s abilities is little more that getting out of a wet paper bag.
Question: why would ComStar allow Wolfnet into their inner Sanctum? What was in it for both of them?
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The IS didn't give out challenges for fights, with the exception of some commanders agreeing to duals and such.
Wolcott.
In defeating the Clans you must use every weapon you have in your arsenal as well as any flaw your enemy has presented to you to win. And one of the Clans biggest Flaw was their challenges … Theodore Kurita proved as much.
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Hanse talked about the idea of sending their elites against the clan garrisons, while holding the omnis with what ever they could. He hoped they could take the worlds behind enemy lines and get the clans to halt forward movement to retake those worlds. This failed as the clans were not worried about taking worlds as much as taking Terra itself.
Where is this written?
If the Clans are not worried about worlds then maybe they should be worried about the logistics chain.
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The PGCs or even other forces not bid into the battle, were not to take action against an enemy except for self defense. And they didn't play the garbage of sitting in the enemy's path to suggest they were defending themselves.
And you expect me to believe this? … especially when you consider the average Clan warrior’s psychological profile – regarding their desire to be in combat, proving them-selves, so that they can be marked as a ri-star, and then obtain a Blood-Name ….. and finally their genetics will be used for the next generation.
This is BS …. Any Clan Commander, even a PGC’s, would want to be right in the middle of the hurricane ….
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It would be foolish to think the clans didn't have reinforcements on the way.
And what about their initial bid … what about their honor … guess the Clans didn’t understand the concept, what they did understand though was obfuscation of the rules in order to win …
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Your alt has things like dropships and jumpships being as common as meteors hitting a world in an asteroid belt.
Again, show me where the exact numbers each House possess – as well as their class – for both Jump and Drop ships.
All any-one has is their own personal supposition based upon very rough calculations used within the 4th Succession War – however as the Helm Memory Core has been cracked open as well – then we have a period of economic growth, as the Technological Grade is steadily moving towards “F”.
Therefore as technology has now surpassed that of the Star League the ability of corporations to manufacture items such as Dropships and Jumpships has now returned to the Inner Sphere – and then we have 10 years of peace, so in that time what has truly been rebuilt and in what quantities?
This is where the game was let down once more TPTB did not due due-diligence in that time so as to prepare the IS for what was to come. Ie. they really stuffed the Beta testing! The timing of the invasion as well as the writing’s quality was completely subpar with way too many holes – the game could have been so much more if just a little more thought was entered into it – just look at the plot developments that all of us that have contributed to this and other Forums on sarna have come up with – a vast array of new and exiting areas from which to explore the Clan Invasion. (and isn’t this want we all want more and varied, exciting and new missions from which to send our forces on?)
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Jamie was in the IS for almost 50 years. In that time things can change. The idea of the rules of the invasion may well have been beyond even his guesses.
Two resupply missions … in which he is required to supply his vast intelligence he has amassed so far. So would this not also be reciprocal? In that the Clans would want to keep him appraised of any new developments back home, otherwise how can he be pre-pared when (if) the invasion arrives.
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And the Exodus path could not be that big of a part in the invasion.
Then how did Jamie and his Dragoons get to the IS. And why did “they” make sure he didn’t retain a copy of the map once he arrived, a map from the IS to the Clan Home worlds – otherwise Jamie could have just given it over to the Leaders of the IS at the Outreach Conference.
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Given the 'evil' combine overlords, who is to say the populations didn't want out from under house Kurita?
If the Kuritan state was that evil please explain why Turtle Bay’s ordinary citizens as well as their yakuza assist the Heir to the Throne in escaping capture by the Clans?
As for quislings – yes there will always be some, but we all know what their fate will be.
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You would probably be dealing with a cluster or even galaxy, which meant far more units then you were hoping for
No the same principle stands! But it all comes down to commander Vs. commander and their individual strategies to win.
And remember what Patton said, old blood and guts himself ….”No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.”
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Now the VTOL idea might work in some games, but battle tech is limited in that as only the novel writers can do that and not break the rules.
Sorry but this is a complete load of BS. Prir to you game write them all down – Hex No. XXXX – VTOL Hidden drop point – hidden VTOL Path through light woods from Hex No XXX through XXX and entering out XXXX
Hidden Pill Box at XXXX, Vibro - Mine field Located at XXXX to XXXX – Infantry spotter located at XXX etc etc.
As for the remainder of your ideas … just establish house rules and make sure everyone knows them from the get go so there are no bad losers. So, not a problem at all.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/27/20 01:19 AM
66.74.60.165
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There was a major build up of forces on the clan front. The DC moved most of the units on the border with the FS, and the FS did the same. It was this movement of forces that lead to Victor not being able to take on Katherine sooner, as she confiscated most of the jumpships that moved those units.
Objective Raids: Chuckchi- militia only
Gallery- militia only
Aur- militia only, and this world was where Defiance was getting a lot of their fusion engines from.
Gibbs- one infantry company and militia
NAIS Cadet units- 1 batt on New Earth, 2 batts on Oliver
Gulkana-militia only
Kirklin- militia only
Campbelton-local militia only
Loyalty-local militia
Not DMM or CMM militia but the ones that were raised from the planets populations. There are more in other books but don't know where they are.
Now. You think you shouldn't have large numbers of your military on the borders? So they should be in the capital drinking with the house leaders while the border worlds get pounded, because it will take a few weeks to months to get there? Logic fail? Part of your ops to protect your borders would have units there as much as possible. Deterrence being the idea. But the enemy will gather up forces to hit you anyways. Can't have you thinking of doing the same as well as putting your plans, such as traps and such behind or even out of the picture entirely. The reason for a lot of border raids. But then I would guess the capital is the only world worth protecting. You would lose quickly with that one.
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ghostrider
01/27/20 01:57 AM
66.74.60.165
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Peter and Arthur were trained as well. So Yvonne should not be the first pick in that. Wow. There were more then just Katherine, Victor and Yvonne in the family? Imagine that.
Or are you saying any military unit at any time is allowed to defy any order given to them by an Officer of a greater rank?
There are times when this is an absolute yes. Being ordered to kill prisoners because you don't like the way that look comes to mind. Also, when you get orders from a colonel to do one thing, and your captain decides to order something in complete contradiction to those orders. I will say special missions as well.
Why would anyone allow a rival intel network into their midst? Infiltration being the main one I can think of.
Before the clans, how many times did rivals challenge each other before an attack? In the Battle tech universe?
One of the novels has that in it. Might be during the Wolf meeting. I believe he was talking to Justin Allard on the firing range.
I will have to look it up, but I believe comstar was in contact with the clans before they got into the IS. And the fact that the few coms that did get thru were thought to be in error as all the other com traffic from those worlds seemed to be in stride of normalty. And it isn't the first time Walterly's control had stopped messages from reaching the FC. Only this time she did it to the DC and FRR. Moving against Comstar was bad without the clans. With the clans, you might as well become a bondsman. At least at the time, you didn't know they weren't any better then Comstar.
Showing you lack understanding of the clans again? The PGC's is the last stop before Solemha. They were eager to show they still had it, but they would not risk breaking with the traditions of the clans. Most would die from trials called by the front line units if they had. Aidan was one of the oddities, but then that is because he was a martyr put up by TPTB. He would have been stripped and kicked to the Dark Caste if not outright killed for his deception. You will believe what every you want. This is how the game was set up.
Why would the IS know, much less care about the bid put in? They were being invaded, and were doing what they could to defend themselves. There had to be reinforcements coming from some where.
Increase in ships, that went to dealing with more interstellar shipping of items around the IS. The houses only buy so many of them as well as big companies, and the rest are sold to those that normally don't have the funds for them. Mercs and independent pilots. And how many of those increased numbers didn't make it back from the 3039 war? We know of at least 5 that the DC lost.
The idea that the clans wanted Jamie to be informed is forgetting a major point. Only the Wolves were confident in the Dragoons. The other clans suspected they would run as soon as they could. Only a few knew Kerlin Wards orders, so didn't know they didn't desert.
Where does it say the clans made sure Jamie didn't have the complete exodus road map to get into the IS? And what route did the clans take to invade? The part where they go past the northeast or the 1 to 3 clock position still happened?
Also, the path was out of the way, and the leaders would be more concerned about protecting their people at that point. Also, I don't think Jamie or the older ones wanted anyone to know that. The only way to stop the clans was to defeat them in combat. Hitting them at home would only get more of them into the fight. The corridor was agreed upon, but having strikes while the others were still at invading would have set off the other clans to come down the path and take on the IS from the 3 o'clock or AO position. Something that would have destroyed any sort of organized defense.
House rules does wonders for the group you are playing with, but others don't agree with them. Especially when you destroy their plans. Much like a hidden position. Each group has their own version of when you see them. For some, the AP would be needed, while others suggest you see them when you get into weapons range.
The quick start up to a fusion engine is against their own rules. It takes a while to get the reactor running right. Not 10 seconds. And even idled, without some other means to mask it, you would still detect something out there.
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Requiem
01/27/20 04:54 AM
1.158.235.15
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Again this is where everything falls down …
The twenty year update, however, indicated the following ‘Mech Regiments for each house…
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Free Worlds League 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Duchy of Andurien 6 Regiments
Magistracy of Canopus 12 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Total D of A / M of C 18 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Taurian 14 Regiments
Alliance 3 Regiments
Other Periphery 10 Regiments
Comstar 50 + Regiments
The Clans however consisted of:-
Clan Wolf – 807 Battlemechs; 1610 elementals; 582 fighters; 2 warships; 82 jumpships; 242 dropships
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships
Ghost Bears 12 Clusters (60 Trinaries) 2 Warships; 27 Jumpships
Smoke Jaguars 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
Steel Vipers 7 Clusters (35 Trinaries) 1 Warship; 13 Jumpships
Nova Cats 9 Clusters (45 Trinaries) 14 Warships; 23 Jumpships
Field Manual: Federated Suns (pages 174) and Lyran Alliance (Pages 165) (3062) - and how many regiments remain? way less than half?
Field Manual: Draconis Combine (3062) (Pages 176)– and how many regiments remain? Near 80 sound about right?
So how is the DC have a loss depletion report of 20% in the last 12 years and yet the FC has a loss depletion report of somewhere within the range of 55% to 60% + for the same period of time?
**** PS: and yet it looks as though the same amount of pages were assigned to each book for their military – so are we now supposed to assume that the number of units that survived the Clan wars is proportionate to the number of pages assigned to each Houses Field Manual! ****
(Remember the Civil War Starts November 3062 – so this cannot be a factor for the loss …)
So having only militia upon some worlds is a complete load of BS ….
Also if the PGC were so important to assisting Clans keep control of their worlds please explain the following ….
Clan Jade Falcon PGC (3059) (as per Sarna.net Clan Jade Falcon Touman / Binary
6th PGC – 1 Binary
9th PGC – 5 Binaries
10th PGC – Unknown
5th PGC – 5 Binaries
9th PGC – 5 Binaries
Aerospace Binary – 20 fighters
Armor Binary – 20 Combat Vehicles
Infantry Binary – 50 Elementals of 250 conventional infantry
This is a very limited …. Even if the 10th was also 5 Binaries and they were all infantry – that’s only 5,250 conventional infantry – This is not even 2RCTs worth of Infantry? So for the Jade Falcons the introduction of PGCs can in no way explain how they could keep all of their worlds under control ….
So how can you effectively control all your worlds, circa 3062, with such a pitiful addition to your Touman if this is a representative across the entire Clans?
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You think you shouldn't have large numbers of your military on the borders? So they should be in the capital drinking with the house leaders while the border worlds get pounded, because it will take a few weeks to months to get there?
Really … how droll!!
Peter … FAIL … retired to a monastery on Zaniah III … so he couldn’t do the job at all!
Arthur … FAIL …. James Sandoval had brainwashed him … then killed off, yet no body found … and no one bothered to add him back to the series in any form whatsoever, so his character was about as important as watching paint dry.
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Or are you saying any military unit at any time is allowed to defy any order given to them by an Officer of a greater rank? …. There are times when this is an absolute yes.
OK, did Katherine ask these unite to kill POWs ? No As for rank – Highest rank wins! Unless you have a document stating you are to ignore all further orders whilst on mission. So did Katherine make these orders? No
Did these units accept orders from outside the normal chain of command – someone who is not even a FC citizen (ComStar)? Yes – so is this legal? No ….is this a charge for a court-martial? Yes … could this be Mutiny? Yes.
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Solahma. They were eager to show they still had it, but they would not risk breaking with the traditions of the clans
Even if you are in a PGC don’t you want to die in a blaze of glory – serve your clan to the bitter end before you are sent to the ignominy of a Solahma unit!
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Why would the IS know, much less care about the bid put in?
Use their own rules against them, psychologically, show their rules / way of life / how they live / what is important to them are ineffective – especially to their Lower Castes – show them there is a better life than remaining as a Clansman … get them to defect on mass …
How good is their military if you cut out their maintenance crews (even a fraction of the total – how could you explain it to those that remained behind?). Counterforce Tactic – target military infrastructure.
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There had to be reinforcements coming from some where.
So just cut their logistical lines. My Fenrir force.
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…. interstellar shipping…. We know of at least 5 that the DC lost. (3039 War)
Between 3039 and 3050 how many were remade?
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Kerlin Wards orders
Sarna.net – Kerlin Ward – “he had them surreptitiously prepare the Spheroids for the eventual Crusader onslaught which he considered a distinct, yet still distant possibility, orders that the Dragoons would proceed to carry out as instructed”
So, how great was their “preparing” the Spheroids? Not very ….to next to none sound about right?
And if Kerlin gave them these orders cant we assume that he would have also told them everything – so this point is now turned around!
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Where does it say the clans made sure Jamie didn't have the complete exodus road map to get into the IS?
Logic would dictate this.
If Jamie did have a copy why didn’t he give it to the IS Leaders when they were on Outreach – He was given orders by Kerlin Ward (above)
Second, have a look how paranoid the Clans were with the Exodus Road coordinates when Trent provided the IS with the Exodus Road navigational data. Can’t we assume a similar level of paranoia when the Dragoons were sent to the IS – what would happen if they got it from the Dragoons!!!!!
As for the three O’Clock position exit – have a look at the final coordinates and you would realize that leaving at 12 O’Clock would be faster.
If Jamie thought attacking the Clan Home worlds was such a misstate then why didn’t he say so when the new SLDF came up with attacking the Jaguars and attacking Huntress at the same time?
House rules are just that house rules – as long as everyone within the house is on the same page what is the problem?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/27/20 12:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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Might be the FC lost so many units was from having more territory hit, and sending more units into the FRR. Could be the social generals lost that much before the real generals got involved. Could be they got caught in space and wiped out by the warships. Might be all of the above, or none of it.
Guessing someone forgot to reread the numbers on units, and dropped some from the books?
Katherine ordered them to attack their own defenders a few times.
Let's not forget, Katherine didn't inherit the throne but took it, and Victor only allowed it to remain that way to avoid another fight. Her actions continued up to a point that had the FC ready to rebel without him stirring the pot. Omni's death finally got him to get it started from his point, but the civil war started before that. Katherine did order troops against those across the FC that were looking to see if their orders were legal. She sent direct orders to them, which isn't following the chain of command. They were sent out to oppress others that said no to her.
Dying in a blaze of glory is something that would be the end result, but your main goal is to do something to be moved up, and even have your genetics used in the future. A blaze of glory isn't always where you succeed. Running out and dying, and leading to a loss has been done in the past. You might personally kill 5 or more enemies yourself, but that is nothing if your side loses.
The initial bid was for units, not personnel in them. So bidding in the entire Falcon Guard, meant they could continually fill it with replacements. And I don't think they would do the most likely underhanded idea of increasing the original size of the unit to bring in more. If the IS had known about the bids and what they left behind, it would have sent panic throughout the IS. As suggested, you would not even attempt to take on an entrenched enemy with less then 3 to 1 odds. Yet the clans were doing so with 1 to 2 odds most of the time. And honestly, I am not sure if that was just mech numbers, or all military units. Without artillery and spotters, the clans outrage the IS, so sitting in your fortress won't work for long.
And the skills for rolling dice do have a huge impact on a battle. A simple roll of 5 verse a 4 on 2d6 changes a lot. So the rules of the game tends to dictate quirks with battles, if they actually fight them out. I don't believe most of the battles were fought. Just a verdict
We could assume Kerlin told them everything, but that would actually be a case against keeping things consistent. Jamie was a freeborn. Kerlin telling him everything would violate more then a few protocols and even clan society standings. He would have informed him of what was needed, but not tell him that much more. Natasha would probably know more about the rest then Jamie when they first left.
Part of their job was to evaluate the IS forces. After that, it is guessing, as he couldn't outright say the SLDF lives and wants to destroy the IS without risking the entire IS hitting them. If the Dragoons were from that army, then they would have to have advanced tech. Warships would be a great prize for any house that could take them. If not, then to avoid others having them, destroy them if possible.
Next point. If anyone from the IS got into the high command and was a spy, the information Kerlin gave them, may well have fallen into the IS hands. That would be a disaster to their entire reason for being here and actually try to launch a sneak attack on the clans home worlds.
Given the time the Dragoons took off for refits, and given the trueborns distaste for freeborns, I would think the refit took place on the clans home worlds. Otherwise, they had operational bases in between the IS and the home worlds. So deleting the exodus road map couldn't have been done. Or would have been remade if escorted by another clan force.
One possible reason with the reformed SL is the fact it was not a sloppy couple of RCT's being sent out to stir the hornet's nest. It was a 'unified' force with all different nations in it, with the express purpose of showing the clans, they were not going to win this. Might well be, the units sent out were tested by Jamie or he had seen what they could do. Also, the warships Comstar put into the effort would allow the task force a much better chance to actually pull it off, verse having to rely on fighters and assault dropships. Not capital weapon carrying dropships, but normal Avengers, Achilles and others.
Then again, he might have been against it, but the writers never added that into the story line.
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Requiem
01/27/20 05:19 PM
1.158.235.15
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Field Manual: Capellan Confederation (pages160) (3062) -48 not including St Ives 3
Twenty year update - The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments (puss the 4 MAC I removed) Total 30
So How does the CC be able to generate 18 new Regiments?
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Field Manual: Free World League (pages 160) (3062) – 61
Twenty year update – 66 Regiments
So how did the FWL loose 5 when they are considered one of the armories of the IS – producing mass amounts of refit packs?
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Guessing someone forgot to reread the numbers on units, and dropped some from the books?
The FC military lost 60% and the CC gained 60%
From these Field Manuals forward the game has been rigged – the history as written IS A LIE! – This is a military game based upon the premise of military strength, if the number of units allowed within the game is in error then all else that comes after it is wrong. So 3050 onwards is all in error of what it should be!
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Katherine ordered them to attack their own defenders a few times …. They were sent out to oppress others that said no to her..
And when did she give these orders and against whom? – During the Civil War and against units that had declared publicly that they are now rogue units – they obey a former FC lord who no longer has a legal standing within the FC and had since sworn loyalty to ComStar! Ordering rogue units to come to be brought to justice and brought to heel is a legal!
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Let's not forget, Katherine didn't inherit the throne but took it, and Victor only allowed it to remain that way to avoid another fight.
And taking the throne is wrong? How many siblings or close relatives have taken the throne by force within this medieval setting? Katherine’s own grandmother took the Lyran throne – and if Victor really wanted the Throne then he could have taken it to the courts – or he could have taken it to the people – his only choice wasn’t only the use of military force when he returned to the IS from Huntress and Clan Space!
(If he was a true House Lord though he would never have gone – again a House Leader does not have a place on the battlefield – his place is on the Capitol world ( incompetent ruler who wants to play soldier!))
Killing Omika (physically) was based upon spite and was beneath her (Katherine) – as stated previously if you really wanted to hurt Victor at this stage it would have been far more damaging to prove that she had given birth to Victors child – She would have to flee her position within the House Honor – the Black Dragon society would send assassins after her – Her father would be pressured to disown her at the very minimum or kill her himself (Disrupting the Tranquility of the Realm – Treason).
If she did flee – she has only two places she can go – her brother and the Spirit cats or Victor.
If she goes to the Spirit Cats can her brother protect her? Or will there be a war between the DCMS and the Cats over Omika! And how this would hurt Victor that he is unable to protect her! (plus how damaged the DCMS could be at the end of this? Katherine could then exploit a weakened DC in the future)
And if she goes to Victor his entire legitimacy for being the true ruler of the FC will be disappear overnight ie. the stool will be kicked out from beneath him whilst he is standing on it – and even if she doesn’t go to him his political power will evaporate in many important circles within the FC – Sandovals and the Draconis March / Capellan March / Skye at the minimum!
This is how a true political power, such as Katherine, would destroy her political / military rival! You find their greatest weakness and you then expose it for all the world to see and then you let the media and Omika’s family / realm kill her off without even lifting a finger.
Again we have two dimensional writing in killing Omika off – far more devious to expose her sins!
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Dying in a blaze of glory is something that would be the end result …. You might personally kill 5 or more enemies yourself, but that is nothing if your side loses.
This is the Clans we are talking about, it is not the DC, Clan psychology would suggest that dying in a blaze of glory no matter if you win / loose is the correct thing to do!
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he initial bid was for units, not personnel in them. So bidding in the entire Falcon Guard, meant they could continually fill it with replacements.
I agree … but where in that bid did the PGC’s come in?
I disagree about understanding the bidding process …. As above the IS FC and the DC should have more units than allowed, even to the point of having a 3:1 ratio ….. if you can prove to the Clan civilians that their leaders disobeyed their own tenants wouldn’t this shake their trust in them? …. Wouldn’t this prove that their leaders use politics to get their way rather than abiding to the rules … it would get many people thing about their right to rule at the minimum, and in the future this way of thinking could bear fruit, as it did with the scientists, but in this case it would be far more than just the scientists starting a revolt.
How many issues throughout history have been determined by trial by combat!
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Kerlin telling him everything would violate more then a few protocols and even clan society standings.
How can you get your man on the ground to get things done if you restrict their knowledge as to what is required.
If their job was to get the IS ready – protect their interests – then why not slip information to all military industries regarding constructing advanced weaponry.
Also warships – without them the IS is wide open for conquest if it is decided it will be a naval war - so why not provide information to allow the IS to build warships?
The Wolves however did nothing when it comes to “getting the IS ready for the invasion”.
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I would think the refit took place on the clans home worlds.
Resupply took place in deep space at a pre-arranged point in time – thus allowing Jamie a minimum amount of time he is missing from the Dragoons and from IS spies who are keeping an eye on him.
So again the Exodus Road map is gone – however he does have a star map up to a point ….
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Then again, he might have been against it, but the writers never added that into the story line.
Correct … we will never know
A united new SLDF destroys one of the Clan’s main reason for invading. The optics of putting the Cameron Star on their ships and vehicles and demonstrating that they are united (and even have Clans who have joined) will undercut the clan’s own political rational – plus it would play well with the Clans civilians – again psychological warfare by placing ideas into their civilian castes.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/27/20 07:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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I want to say the CC and the Trinity Alliance had issues with resources to build units. Once they started working together, they got things done. That would also have to be government factories that were made on Victoria and others, as normal commercial factories would require payments, which the CC seemed to rarely pay. Granted, it does look like someone added when it should have subtracted the numbers. One other possibility was Comstar was able to get the FWL to help out the CC, or maybe WOB as they did help refit the Achilles and make the CC's warships. Might also explain the missing regiments in the FWL. Ask the developers and fact checkers.
When Victor finally decided to start his push, there had been more then a few fights that destroyed worlds. Thorin being one of them. I also want to say Katherine had a few assaults on the Draconis March worlds as well. A lot of troops still believed Victor was the rightful leader. And with this, Victor choose to run the Comstar military to avoid the fight. So he did use another option. One not listed. Katherine pushed for the fight, as she tried to tighten her control over the FC. Omi was killed to hurt Victor, since he was making headway against her forces, and that was in the LA. Yet even without him running his troops, they were still keeping Katherines forces from destroying them.
History has many examples of siblings taking the throne by force or deception. Very few of them were for the better. Only when the whole community rose up to help the defeated sibling did it mean the new ruler wasn't liked by any.
Not sure how having a child would change his legitimacy for being the ruler, though it would be very embarrassing in some circles. In others, it would bring hope that the child would one day remove the DC from being a threat and the Steiner-Davion line would rule there to. Being heir to Hanse and Melissa, makes his legitimacy solid. It does NOT rule out, being overthrown. But as you suggested. The courts would be required, making it a long battle to do so. Something Katherine wouldn't want. And with Victor returning the hero, he chances would drop dramatically.
Plus it wasn't well know Omi had a child. He only found out with an autopsy report given to him. The statement was something like scarring the is normally attributed to child birth. It did NOT say she had a child.
The PGCs is part of their Trials. Screaming they are illegal suggests you don't understand this. Front line units aren't for defense unless they are being attacked. Or rarely ordered to engage in a defensive action. They will wait until the PGC's or who ever is doing the defense to die before moving out.
How many issues throughout history have been determined by trial by combat!
Funny. The complaints of the trials is this brought to life. Might makes Right. Doesn't mean it was the best person won.
Information on what they needed to know to do the job is one thing. Everything implies things they don't need to know, like how many forces the Falcons have at that moment, as that would change in the future. Even if the clans are upping production isn't necessary at the time. But I can see part of the issue of why the Dragoons didn't give out tech. Given the wars fought while the Dragoons were in the IS shows they would absolutely try to kill each other with it, and hurt themselves even more. There was no set date to when the clans would invade. And there wasn't any message sent to the Dragoons the invasion was on it's way.
I find it unlikely there weren't copies made of the jump points. Some one would definitely violate orders as they would need a way to get back home if the mission goes south. Unless they changed the text in newer books, I want to say it was suggested they got it fixed in deep space. But here is a side point. Where did they do it? It isn't like you would do that work on dropships or even warships. A station or base is most likely.
So what, if anything, remains of this if it was deep space?
Also, I doubt anyone but the Wolves would have gone out to meet them. Most thought they were disgusting freeborns that couldn't figure out how many apples were in a bushel, much less figure out how many units the IS had or could make.
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Requiem
01/27/20 09:36 PM
1.158.235.15
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Granted, it does look like someone added when it should have subtracted the numbers.
Between the 20 year update 3050 and the Field Manual 3062 we have a span of no more than 12 years, the CC have only a few real BattleMech Manufacturing facilities ….
Sarna.net has their main facilities as ….
Hellespont ‘Mech Works on Sian; and
Earthwerks Incorporated on Grand Base, Calloway VI, Keystone, Tikonov
And yet House Liao Book – Has Earthwerks on Tikonov and Grand Base – Hellespont on Sian – Kallon on Nanking.
Sorry to say but TPTB once more interfered with the game by providing the Capellans with units they were incapable of manufacturing and manufacturing facilities that never existed and they were incapable of building.
So, if the Capellans can manufacture at such prodigious numbers then can anyone explain why the FWL, DC and FC cannot match or outperform them as the CC were considered to possess the least efficient facilities with the entire IS cira. 3040.
There are no writings between 3040 and 3062 that can explain this other than TPTB have manipulated the game for their own ends – that CC empire that which we see in 3150 to replace the pathetic CC post 4th Succession War – and should have been eliminated in 3039.
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Katherine pushed for the fight, as she tried to tighten her control over the FC.
She really didn’t need to push for a fight (as stated above) – Plus remember Katherine’s greatest weapon is not the BattleMech it is the Media and the relationship she has with her people …
This is where the books also become very two dimensional once again – To kill off Victor all you need to do is prove that he has an alliance with the DC – and this can be proven with that of his and Omika’s son – once proven his days of being a FC Lord is all but done!
With proof in hand all she needs do is leak it to every large media organization and Victor’s days as a FC Lord are done!
Starting a civil war here was foolishly written plot development – but TPTB must have their endless war - no matter how badly written it is.
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Not sure how having a child would change his legitimacy for being the ruler
A child provides stability to the realm – as there is now a legitimate successor to the throne.
Victor is the first born and as such he is the legitimate successor when his parents die – and when he dies his first born is considered to be the legitimate successor – the only issue is that Victor and Omika must be married, otherwise the child is a bastard and has no legal standing.
That said – the DC might consider saying that they were married so as to put Victor and Omika’s child on the FC throne in the future - and in the near future a DC / FC alliance and merging of realms (and military) could be considered.
Katherine on the other hand would say the child is a bastard and as such has no legal standing to take the throne.
Thus in the future there could well be a war for the succession of the FC throne when Katherine dies – her successors Vs. Victor’s and Omika’s child – FC Vs. DC.
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Being heir to Hanse and Melissa, makes his legitimacy solid. It does NOT rule out, being overthrown.
Yes he (Victor) is the legitimate successor of the FC – However if his Dukes forsake him, as they would if it could be proven that he had a child with Omika – then he would have to abdicate his and his illegitimate child’s right to the throne – or risk a Civil War between himself and his vassals (who remain loyal) and that of his Dukes who want him gone and support Katherine’s right to rule!
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The courts
Unfortunately the game never really got into this so there is no way of determining how this would play out. Creating a vast and vibrant backdrop of the Battletech universe was never TPTB’s strongpoint.
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Plus it wasn't well know Omi had a child. He only found out with an autopsy report given to him.
You do not need an autopsy report to determine if a woman has given birth!
This again shows a very one dimensional view of the writers ability – during pregnancy the pelvic bones become more elastic and once a woman gives birth her pelvis increases in size – one decent photo of Omi when analyzed will indicate she has given birth, so just go back in time with these photos until you suddenly have a nine month gap and look at who was around at the beginning and what you will find is Victor – then you can just make up the documents / witnesses – as any medical examination that would be ordered to refute it will prove that she has given birth to a child.
All you need to do is let the media feed itself ramping up and up the feeding frenzy until it cannot be denied!
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The PGCs is part of their Trials. Screaming they are illegal suggests you don't understand this.
Really … show me where within the Jade Falcons original bid of 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships where it stated that a PGC was included within the Touman
Refer to Sarna.net – Clan Jade Falcon Touman and the earliest PGC mentioned is in 3054 Phi Galaxy with the 9th and 10th and saying this is legal is saying you could bring in anything and everything you wanted for defensive action from the Clan Home Worlds – so how is this honoring the spirit of the original bid? This is but a "technicality" a political tool by which you get your way it is, and has never been, an act a true paladin would consider or accept.
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The complaints of the trials is this brought to life. Might makes Right. Doesn't mean it was the best person won.
So then, what is a circle of equals within Clan society?
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There was no set date to when the clans would invade. And there wasn't any message sent to the Dragoons the invasion was on it's way.
They were given an order to prepare the IS … they had no idea as to when the Clans would invade, though they knew that they would sooner or later invade given the number of people adopting the Crusader philosophy over time … so what do they do to obey the order given to them …. absolutely nothing comes to mind here! So how does this help the IS?
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I find it unlikely there weren't copies made of the jump points.
It comes down to how good the security is on every ship the Dragoons had when they took to the Exodus Road and the IS.
Yes I agree a space station is likely …and it is still out there ready to be found and used once more …. or was used by one of the Clans during the invasion as a supply relay station for the front lines ....
so my Fenrir forces could find it and maybe even take it .... what goodies could be found within its computer core with regards to the Dragoons - what security video files could there be? <Possible new story arc that could lead your forces from the depths of the Dark Periphery all the way to Outreach itself and the Dragoons themselves>
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disgusting freeborns
? – ComStar Explorer Corp. ? or one of the few remaining explorer corps. that are beyond the Periphery looking for new worlds.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/28/20 12:07 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue might be that Calloway and Keystone are in FWL at 3050 and 3063 according to the wiki. Now sure if they were suggesting that is where the factories owned by Earthwerks or not.
Nanking was part of the FS/FC for both those time periods as well. 3079 is the little time it spent in the CC again, then went to the ROTS.
So something is very wrong with this picture entirely.
Having a full media control was how she got away with pushing people and worlds up until a point where enough had been destroyed by her to find out the truth. People believe the pretty face over the local lords that tax them and they don't see much in return, even though that pretty face is the one taking the taxes from the local lords. It's how the media works. The Don Henley song Dirty Launder sums that up well.
The birth. It is the way Victor found out he had a child. Otherwise, he didn't even know that, and he was working with Comstar for a long while. The Pillar of Order or your Spirit cats may well have hidden the birth from others. The autopsy was given to Victor as a courtesy of the DC government. How well it was kept, I don't know.
Maybe the idea of what a bid is, has you confused. The bid is the forces you will use to fight for the object. After the battle is over, so is the bid. Hope that simplifies this.
Might does not mean you are right. The circle of equals means someone won or lost or both lost. It does NOT determine if you are able to do a job, or what ever. It just says you won or lost the priviledge to say you are.
The Dragoon's were the disgusting Freeborns in that statement. Except for Clan Wolf and a few members of the other clans, they did not believe the Dragoons should have been sent. Their idea would have shown them as outsiders almost immediately, as most trueborns can't hold their tongue for a long time around those they believe are inferior.
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Requiem
01/28/20 01:28 AM
1.158.235.15
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So something is very wrong with this picture entirely.
Agree …. The numbers are all wrong, there is no way the CC could have generated all these additional forces in such a short period of time.
There is something very wrong when it comes to the TO&E of the CC circa. 3062.
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Having a full media control
A lot can be said about Katherine – her ability to manipulate the media is one of her strong assets.
It’s a shame she didn’t use it more often against Victor – he is so out of his depth when it comes to the media.
This is why I suggested that rater than using the assassin she informs the IS of Victor & Omika’s Child – Born sometime around August 3060 – Remember she informed Victor in a round-about way (that he didn’t pick up on) that she was with child when he left to join the 2nd IS fleet that was on its way to Huntress (Late Nov. Early Dec 3059) …. And then The Great Refusal (so + 9 months = August 3060 or there about)
This is where sara.net Wiki Kitsune Kurita made a mistake he was not born in 3063 it must have been somewhere around August of 3060.
And the FedCom Civil War began November 3062. – so Kitsune would be a little over 2 years old …
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Maybe the idea of what a bid is, has you confused. The bid is the forces you will use to fight for the object. After the battle is over, so is the bid.
May be I don’t understand all the enounces …
The bid: Terra
The Forces: As given above (That do not include PGCs)
The Time Limit: ?
Since they (The Clans) never reached Terra when does the bid end? As they began bringing in PGCs in 3054 when they were still fighting to enlarge their invasion corridor. When is OK to bring them in as the needed ilKhan’s OK to allow this …
Sarna.net wiki – Ulric Kerensky “Leo Showers attempted to slow the Wolf Clan's progress by refusing them the use of Provisional Garrison Clusters, which were technically not part of the invasion bids. But PGCs were traditionally not part of the bidding process, as they were usually only used in defense. Also, his own Smoke Jaguars were already using the second-line troops, and the other Clans were requesting they be allowed to use them. Challenged by Ulric on these points, Showers was forced to back down, allowing the Wolf Clan PGCs to begin taking positions throughout their ever-growing occupation zone.”
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It does NOT determine if you are able to do a job
Trial of position …to become a warrior….. the blooding;
Trial of position … to obtain a Promotion……sarna.net wiki Trial of Position
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The Dragoon's
And yet Natasha is trueborn Iron Womb child.
And gaining invaluable reconnaissance information is considered a basic tenant of all military strategy ….and yes there was contempt for them being sent in the first place. The mission was given to the lowly freeborn.
And yet how was the information received at the time …. And then once they had invaded they may have realized the information supplied was not all that useless they thought it to be.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/28/20 12:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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Here is another equipment loop hole. How is it a mech's fusion core heats up while the mech is moving, but a vehicle doesn't? To my knowledge it is the same engine?
As stated in my last post, Callaway and Keystone are not in the CC, but in the FWL. This alone means anything made here would not send their entire production to the CC, even if the DC demanded it. So someone got the locations or number under the wrong house.
The bid ended when the clans were defeated on their home worlds. But it does ask, did the truce affect it in any way?
I can see where it might be seen that each world taken, could not be garrsoned with the PGC as the bid for the invasion was running, but I don't think the clans really had that large of a campaign, where they took multiple worlds or had a long running combat. I want to says the closets in the history we see is the refusal trials the Wolves fought against the invasion, though the refusal war would be the second.
Having the skills to fight in a battle, doesn't mean you have the skills to lead or even control units in that battle. Those two Trials of Position is one warrior on one warrior, with the 3 arrayed against the one fighting one on one. Unless the petitioner attacks multiple mech, or passes them, they will not shoot the pettitioner. The best shot in the world isn't likely to be able to even plan a mission with all the details. They might be able to learn after a while.
As stated, the clans had sent in others to recon the IS. Most of the Khans would have viewed the information with suspicion, as they doubted the Dragoons would be able to do the job, such as not knowing what to look for. Now Wolfnet's information would be a little bettter recieved. The Dragoons would basically support what Wolfnet had said.
I say this as Wolfnet found out facts that not even some closest to the source knew. Also, the Dragoons wouldn't know the troop positions of their employer on the other side of their realms, and possibly even in the military district they were in.
As for Natasha and informing your troops, you do not tell them that they will hit say the Falcons in order to upset the Jaguars. Even when she was a star Colonel, that was outside of the information required to do her job. BUT, that doesn't mean those that were freindly to her, wouldn't say more then they were supposed to.
Actually, the example would be very likely to the rest of the Dragoons.
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Requiem
01/28/20 06:09 PM
1.158.235.15
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How is it a mech's fusion core heats up while the mech is moving, but a vehicle doesn't?
Sarna.net wiki Essay: BattleMech Technology – Engine Cooling System
“Fusion engines also have their own integral cooling system in addition to their regenerative cooling systems. These other cooling systems are separate from the rest of the 'Mech's Heat sink network. Liquid nitrogen jackets are used over key components, which allows minimal engine operations without having to activate the external Heat Sink systems. Any more use of the engine requires the larger cooling capacity of the main Heat sink and regenerative systems.”
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The bid ended when the clans were defeated on their home worlds.
OK – The Great Refusal was fought on 23 April, 3060.
Clan Wolf – Garrison Clusters – Epsilon Galaxy (3051-52)
Clan Ghost Bear – Kappa, Xi, Omicron, Pi Galaxy (3059)
Clan Jade Falcon – Phi Galaxy (3054) Epsilon, Lambda, Mu Galaxy (3059)
Clan Smoke Jaguar – Garrison Clusters – Zeta, Kappa, Nu, Psi, Omega Galaxy (3052 – 59)
Clan Nova Cat Touman – Garrison Clusters – Xi, Omicron Galaxy (3054) Chi Provisional Garrison (3054-59) PGCs (3060) Zeta Provision Galaxy (3062)
Clan Diamond Shark Touman – No PGCs, No Garrison Clusters
The majority of which is before 3059…..
(I would also like to point out the the Jaguars were supposed to have introduced PGCs before that of the Wolves - and yet the sarna.net wiki does not support this - is there an error somewhere in this data?)
Tyra Miraborg slammed her Shilone into the Dire Wolf on 31 October 3050 – however this only required a new ilKhan to the invasion ….so how could this necessitate the addition of PGCs?
My thinking regarding the bid – Each Clan Bid has a certain amount of units to fight their way from the start line to Terra, where they will battle whomever is guarding it, for the right to be called the ilClan. This Bid included all forces necessary not only to fight your way through, but to also Garrison the worlds your forces conquered within your Invasion Corridor - thus keeping them open and secure.
So how can you break the bid and ask for more Garrison units if they were not included in the original bid?
The original bid was supposed to include all Garrison units!
Why do they need additional forces – mathematically the opening bids DO NOT WORK to continue the invasion and at the same time Garrison every world conquered.
As shown previously when doing the mathematics based upon the original bid numbers. To garrison every world captured with a minimum of a Trinary unit every Clan runs out of their units available forces to continue the war way before they even get close to Terra. (I completed a full Excel sheet for the Jade Falcons, and it showed me that it did not work, even when you assume their numbers remain at 100% constantly – No battle casualties whatsoever!)
Thus we have the idea that Clan’s are allowed a “Technicality” to bring in additional forces - PGCs / Garrison Clusters - to allow them to garrison worlds in the rear so that it will free up enough front line forces to continue their advance / continue their Invasion to possibly conquer Terra.
Why? TPTB did not think it through when they came up with the original bid numbers. So they created a patch to get around this error – even if it means violating the rules they created for their Clans. So, the invasion was not thought through before TPTB began publishing books and once they found the error a band aid was decided to fix it in the form of a “Technicality”.
This does not surprise me – over half of the FC forces does missing, 20% of the DCMS is gone, the CC are given an additional 60% to their military that makes no sense whatsoever! The Mathematics of every House and every Clan is not working from 3050 onwards – it is like it is just made up with no real validity behind it! The mathematics of the game does not even come close to explain how the clans can retain fighting with their available numbers when they have Sibko system as a reinforcement system. In reality their sibko system works well for Clan wars on their Home Worlds using a bidding system – but once you move this system to the meat grinder of a total war system within the IS their Sibko system just falls over – so, when will common sense work here?
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Having the skills to fight in a battle, doesn't mean you have the skills to lead or even control units in that battle.
Correct … and this is where the Clans (and the Game) falls down again … their system of gaining promotions is through combat, this means that the most vicious and most deadly combatant wins promotions, no matter their experience in combat. They do not favor the person who demonstrated the greatest intellectual capacity, the person who understands unique tactics and strategies / understanding logistics when fighting a war … etc. Their entire premise of thought when it comes to warriors is younger is better … older (more experience) should be kicked to the side …
Whereas the IS system (for the most part) people are promoted who have a very long track record of excellence, people who understand every nuance including logistics … The older may not be on the front line but their experience is invaluable when conducting war.
The Clan system is suited for very fast shock and awe tactics …. but when a Clan force is bogged down in a protracted battle the inexperience of the Clans hierarchy should be shown to quite ineffective, and yet this is never shown within the game. Why? Wouldn’t this disrupt TPTB overarching plans to establish massive Clan Empires with the IS by 3150? Again I am not impressed with this two dimensional writing of the Clan Invasion. Post year of Peace there should have been a WW2 Italy – Albert Kesselring – Campaign from then on, and yet what do we get?, more of the same …. again, I am not impressed with the limited writing ….
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As stated, the clans had sent in others to recon the IS.
So, can anyone explain how these “others” received a complete exodus road map? And how did they keep under the radar whist within the IS … also what would happen if the Dragoons noticed them and knew who hey were? Confirmation of information is very difficult – the Dragoons have access to Great House’s Information – Unknown “others” do not have this access … sorry but I do not see these others confirming much of the Information supplied by the Dragoons, they have been within the IS for over half a century and understand the IS …. These “others” appear to be short timers, any information they gather would be heavily blinkered as to what each of their Clans want to find in the IS and not what the IS really is …..
I would also like to ask didn’t anyone ever go rogue and want to stay in the IS as the Dragoons did – so why didn’t they tell someone? Someone like Uncle Chandy would have taken them (Clan defector) seriously ….. or did the Dragoons have an assassination squad to keep people from going "rogue"?
Question – was Wolfnet a separate unit or were they attached to the Dragoons as part of the Dragoons?
As for Natasha – she was brought up on charges of treason when she returned to the Clans.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (01/28/20 06:26 PM)
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ghostrider
01/28/20 07:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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I left out the vehicles FUSION engine doesn't heat up. Walk/cruise +1 heat, Run/flank +2 heat. It can't be friction from the parts moving, otherwise distance would determine that. Urbanmech 2/3. Spider 8/12.
It may be that the clans figured out their inability to continue the war after Tyra did her suicide run. I would also suspect that the clans started losing more units when getting deeper into the IS. Better defenses as well as better units more often showing up.
A thought to ponder. Blood names would be where the viciousness is at peak. It is those warriors who passes on the genes to future warriors. Promotions aren't so bad, as it seems the pilot starts off with a bigger mech then the first warrior he faces, or has in the novels.
Might want to look at it as the evolution of the clans from the inexperienced long term fighters, to the packs that they seem to devolve into, was the main story arc for the clans. Corrupting influences in the IS would do that. Also, reading the stories, the clans were already shifting to lies and dishonorable tactics to win fights.
First off, thinking they got a road map may well be completely wrong. Simple dropping off the agents in the periphery and having them go from there, would mean no one has the maps but the jumpships that went back home.
I would think more then a few went rogue, as the lure of luxury tends to destroy peoples motives. Wiether the Dragoons had some or if there were roving ones sent by the clans is interesting. But doubt it. Anyone smart enough to do recon would know that saying anything about the descendants of Kerensky would get them arrested and tortured.
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Requiem
01/28/20 09:00 PM
1.158.235.15
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vehicles FUSION engine
Again …understanding how it works please read …. Sarna.net wiki Essay: BattleMech Technology …. As how an engine works doesn’t change if it is in a ‘Mech or a vehicle.
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It may be that the clans figured out their inability to continue the war after Tyra did her suicide run.
Yes, this can be considered plausible … none of the khans believed in the Dragoon Reports and ,as a consequence, they under bided in an effort to be allowed to be part of the Operation Revival … so now they needed to call upon their reserves to ensure their forces reach the target world of Terra. <The problem is this was “Technically” against the bidding process – and as everyone was in the same boat everyone agreed to ignore the rules>
However, if they had looked at a simple star chart and had given the idea of garrisoning worlds any thought whatsoever they must have realized they would need a vast garrison army - even if it was only a Trinary (Triad – one star each ‘Mech, Elementals and Aerospace) per world.
I would have also asked how they thought they could control a world with populations in the billions with only such a limited force?
I can only assume that every clan was blinkered by their own society - based upon the Caste System – they must have assumed that every person who was not of the warrior caste was a lamb to be bossed around – they would just do as they are told, as they do on the clan home worlds.
Oh! How wrong they were!
If an entire world wants you gone …. You really need a vast infantry force (hopefully backed up with vehicles, ‘Mechs and aerospace) to hold all critical points upon a single world. (Especially when you attempt to change IS culture to Clan Culture – Fostering for example)
Plus when you bring in the idea of IS ‘commando forces’ raiding such a limited garrison the need for additional ground security support will become even more important.
Then when you tack on the idea of replacement personnel from Sibkos – the idea of keeping you people alive as the Loss Depletion Report increases indicates that over time you could have a problem when it comes to replacement personnel.
<There is also the side issue of what happens when a closed society meets an open society – especially with regards to the non-warrior caste members assigned to assist the warriors on garrison duty>
<Plus the idea that ComStar would assist the Clans with administrating world right from the start is completely in error – there must have been a period between when the invasion started to when ComStar began assisting the Clans>
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I would also suspect that the clans started losing more units when getting deeper into the IS. Better defenses as well as better units more often showing up.
You would have thought that this was the case, but the canon writing doesn’t support this assumption
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Blood names would be where the viciousness is at peak.
I am in agreement …. Viciousness within battle would become a character trait …. It is a wonder they didn’t produce more psychopaths!
There is also one point missing, when and who are allowed to challenge for a promotion? Is it only in times of when your superior shows weakness / looses a battle? Otherwise once you have earned the rank you cannot be challenged for it?
As if you allowed a challenge to be called any time your own forces would pretty much decimate the Clan in a bid to gain a higher rank – anarchy would rain supreme.
Although after a serious loss the remaining Clan Unit could turn on itself – accusations of cowardness would be rife within any Clan Unit as individuals would see this as a way to gain a promotion – they could decimate whatever is remaining in a bid for rank – remember they are supposed to be Mongol and any weakness / loss will not be tolerated – it must be excruciated less it affect the whole.
Thus when the IS starts winning how would the Clan survivors take it – who would take the blame for the loss and how will they rid themselves of such a taint?
Unfortunately the writing is once more two dimensional on this point ….
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Corrupting influences in the IS
This is what happens when you are conditioned to believe you are the best … and then you are beaten by those you once considered your inferiors ….. anger has a way of eating you out from the inside, leaving only base anger aimed at your tormentor ….
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the clans were already shifting to lies and dishonorable tactics to win fights
This is understandable, they would sooner or later have realized that in order to stay alive they would have to adapt to the IS way of war.
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road map
How does your unit get around within the IS?
How do they get back to be picked up for their ride home – as punctuality would be required?
What if the Jump-ship was captured?
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going rogue
Yes a few would go rogue …. The question of the technical expertise and knowledge should be considered … and yes to remain free they would have to keep their mouth shut in regards to the Clans, however sooner or later someone should have been caught and interrogated … it comes down to the interrogator and if they believe what they are being told.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/28/20 10:44 PM
66.74.60.165
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No. But a fusion run vehicle doesn't build up heat. A moving mech does. Why?
Now probably was the issue. Most of the Khans thought the IS people would cower from the clans might, so they would not need garrison troops. They were used to their own citizens. Yes. They were that out of touch with the IS practices.
Did they change a nova to triad?
If I know right, you can challenge for any rank, though most would not try to jump from warrior to Khan in a single action, but there were exceptions. I believe they were even able to challenge to use specific mechs. But they had to be approved by the higher ups, to avoid unnecessary waste.
The Jade Phoenix series had the commanders on Tukayyid for the Jade Falcons arguing who got the limited artillery to take some bridges. The might well be an example of the chaos starting.
I want to say the shift to lying started before the invasion, though took off once they got some IS populations under wing. All clans, not just the Falcon... underwing 
I don't think they were worried about a jumpship being captured when bringing in the earlier scouts. I believe they got concerned with the large invasion forces. I would think standing orders for these scouts would be self destruct. It may well be, they had several ships wasted in sitting at rendevous points in order to do another leg of the trip. Not likely as it would be considered a waste. One idea might be the clans were pirates that dropped of the operatives during raids, with planetary systems being hacked to add in the agents as natives.
The idea of sending back information might be several things. First would be transmissions, like a jumpship sends out a code to a pager type set up to say 'hey, we are in system', to having a dropships meet them in the dead of the night situations. Not sure.
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