Requiem
04/15/20 05:05 PM
1.158.222.248
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Because it would destroy the FC. Stopping all future plans for what to do with it.
Then create your fictional universe where all Clans attack at once on a broad front!
Just remember that the number of supply ships that would be so problematic for the Clans it is beyond their capability currently.
Also ,as the idea that clans no longer bid for anything anymore please rewrite their complete society.
And due to the size of the invasion (and no Beta testing) Fed-Com and DC elect to use atomic weapons against every Clan unit from the get go as they have no other choice but to do so – Jihad on steroids!
Congrats great game!
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the books it says it was continued under Victor
This means the program was there – and yet he still went ahead and ordered it to be implemented – an act of utter barbarity!
This shows that Victor is a monster at this stage! There are some lines even a House Lord should never cross and he did – at this stage he is the equal of CC’s Maximilian Liao!
Katherine may have her faults, but she never went this far! She was always the better choice – this is why at this stage rather than succeeding she should have removed Victor from the board, PERMANENTLY.
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You know from the future story line that the clans are coming, so you do what you can to counter it in 3025 or sooner?
Wolf’s Dragoons were ordered by their Khan to do this …… circa 3019-20 meeting in the Deep Periphery.
Canon may have them doing nothing but in reality something should have been done other than Natasha forming her own Cluster with Trinaries and using it within the IS prior to the Clan’s arrival.
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If the FC had those resources,
And yet the resources of the Fed-Com should have been far more than given – The CC should have fallen in the 3039 war.
And sooner or later the ghost units would become known to Davion agents – as well as their origins – thus putting ComStar once again in the cross hears of the Fed-Com.
As for the FRR – it should have been only half the size, as there is no way the Lyrans would just give up their half of the FRR just because the Archon was having fun of the DC’s predicament in a press briefing.
Those worlds were won by Lyran Blood – and only by the loss of further Blood would they ever give them up!
Canon once again lost the plot with the formation of the FRR!
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That is what got him to stop the war.
Economics (due to ComStar’s interference) not military forced the war to stop – otherwise the CC should have fallen during the 4th Succession War.
And yes ComStar’s plan was also to save CC.
At this point is where the Black Boxes should have become a priority for Fed-Com – thus their mass production would have started shortly hereafter.
Also at this point in time every house should have realized ComStar’s perfidy towards all the IS Houses – thus every house should have begun a program to train people to take over every HPG from ComStar if they attempted such an action against their House!
Thus in the future with Comstar’s betrayal of the IS to the Clans there is a very real possibility that both the Fed-Com and DC would have Nationalized all HPGs – and removing ComStar HPG from their realm if they do not tow the line!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/16/20 04:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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Utterly barbaric to do something like have someone be the poster child for a foreign ruler, in order to keep your people from being attacked on another front, knowing full well most of your troops are focusing on the clans? Unlike his sister, he was not doing it to take the rulership road from Thomas.
The second part of this was, he needed to make sure the flow of refit parts continued to the LC portion. Katherine was the one that would benefit most from this continuing. Yeah. Good idea to kill the golden goose, which meant the clans didn't get kicked out. Hmmm.
Maybe you need to reread the entire discussion about the clans attacking en masse. Doing it the logical way, like you been saying, they would not have agreed for only 4 clans to have a shot at becoming the ilkhan. This is the way it would have been done if it was a real logical war. Don't like it? Most don't like the truth like this, when it negates someones idea of how to make it all more realistically logical.
Given the leaders of the IS at the time, who would actually believe a story of the SLDF coming back to remove the houses from existence? Liao? He was out of touch with reality. Hanse? He might. But then he would have been more likely to dismantle the dragoons. Katrina? She wasn't happy that the dragoons jumped ship before the end of their contract with the LC, The FWL? Even without the MIIO agents stirring up trouble, they were too unorganized to do much. The DC? Takashi had them to brittle to withstand the might. Given that, I can see why he would look for another way.
Think about the FC and comstar for a second. Do you really think the other houses are going to cry foul, when they are benefitting from such actions? Do you think they would even believe it? If the FC would have tried to accuse comstar of anything, they would be at a very harsh disadvantage at that point.
And to mass produce the black boxes would definitely have the other houses finding out about them much sooner. Had to pump out several hundred thousand units like that and not be seen.
Have you ever heard the question of how many can keep a secret? Just one. With each person being told about them and even worse, learning how to use them, the secret escapes even quicker.
One note that seems to be missed with the idea of taking over the HPG network. Only comstar knew how to run them. So seizing them was possible, but not being able to run them.
Comstar was basically neutralized just after operation scorpion. That is when the concept of not knowing how the HPGs work was hammered into the game.
How do you train to run something that no one you know of, can use?
It isn't a skill you just pick up and learn it like shooting a gun. It requires more then just aiming at another world. If you can figure that one out by itself. The black box isn't so strict.
Now, with the stories in the game, Comstar does not have the HPGs aligned up to other worlds all the time. They shift where it is going. So how do you know you even got it to the right place? They could very well be trained on another world, or the people there don't know how to send anything back? This isn't something like throwing a football.
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Requiem
04/16/20 07:36 PM
1.158.222.248
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The ends do not justify the means. Especially when the ends result in a situation as disastrous as what resulted, The FWL and the CC attacking – loss of access to refit packs.
I find it very difficult to understand how anyone could still stand up and say what he did was the correct course of action - politically or morally.
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Maybe you need to reread the entire discussion about the clans attacking en masse.
Canon – both the Fed-Com and the DC have extreme difficulty with dealing with just two Clans – how will they fare with 5 times (and may be more, depending on how / where the lineup is structured).
So please elucidate me – how are the Fed-Com and the DC expected to deal with this larger invasion force without going for either the Clan’s Jump-ships or using nukes?
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who would actually believe a story of the SLDF coming back to remove the houses from existence?
When you receive interrogation reports from multiple POWs all collaborating the same story? … when you have the Dragoons also collaborating the same story?
Question if you found out what ComStar was up to (providing military information to the Clans) how are you going to get them to stop? Or are you just going to ignore it? Or do we start up another shadow war with comstar once again?
By this time the entire Fed-Com and a good majority of the DC should have black box technology – to think the entire IS House spy units hadn’t put long term spy(s) into ComStar and they didn’t obtain all the information to run the HPS to their handlers – who then used the information to train House teams to work them – is a little naïve. Especially when they have just gone through a shadow war with ComStar? Just one person in the right place and your House could have a complete understanding of how to operate a HPG … it is just that easy.
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Do you really think the other houses are going to cry foul, when they are benefitting from such actions?
This is just the FWL because the CC should have died in 3039 – so this is three quarters of their entire net being taken away.
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Do you think they would even believe it?
Yes …. Proof obtained if presented correctly can be used correctly.
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And to mass produce the black boxes would definitely have the other houses finding out about them much sooner.
DC already have them …. So again that just leaves the FWL.
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With each person being told about them and even worse, learning how to use them, the secret escapes even quicker.
Then how does any country keep any secret about any topic?
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That is when the concept of not knowing how the HPGs work was hammered into the game.
Then what happened post Fortress Republic – when ComStar is finally destroyed? Do the families of each HPG stations just go private and keep the money and the knowledge in house?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/16/20 08:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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Since Victor did not kill Joshua, just keep Thomas thinking he was still alive to continue to get equipment needed for the troops on the clan line is much better then opening up millions to die from petty jealousy. Starving millions that don't agree with you, while telling the military to put down insurections with force. Killing your own family is much better. I can see that now. NOT!
Not saying it was the best course of action, but it did keep the refit kits flowing for a while.
You have forgotten the fact you said it wasn't logical they way they had the clans invade, and when I point out what would have happened if they did, you don't like the results? The accusation that the clans were favored, yet only enough to threaten the IS, not obliterate it was sent in, how is this favoring the clans? It favors the IS. I don't mind that logic isn't held up with the inclusion of all the clans. But saying they would not do this, or would do that, as they were Mongol hordes, and not want to face the truth about what would have happened if they did, well don't bring it up.
What POWs? The clans invaded after the Dragoons stopped sending intel. Again. Knowing it all and trying to change it with knowledge they would not have at that time isn't going to work. So when they got their orders, in 3019, who would believe they were part of the SLDF of old?
So you haven't read the history of the IS, as well as Comstar. The houses did NOT get people into Comstar to learn how to operate the HPGs. Maybe not skimming the information but actually reading it might stop all the misunderstanding of the fictional story of the game.
It is easy to con the people that run the communications network of the entire IS? ROM is very efficient in making sure the story is correct.
If someone had done so, then Comstar would not exist, as their hold on interstellar coms would be history. The use of the black boxes is probably why the shadow war wasn't a complete smear of the MIIO and LOKI. And with this, Comstar should have gotten ahold of the black boxes as they wiped out intel agents that had them. It isn't like the movies where someone screams or steps on a branch just before killing the agent.
And with this, another issue just came to mind. Comstar should have had access to the SLDF sneak suits, and would have upgraded them during the 300 plus years.
During the 4th war, when it became apparent Comstar was protecting the CC, who would cry foul? Oh yeah. No one. The intel shadow war started. So your kidnapping claims may well have happened, but they were killed or rescued before any information was gotten from them. Yeah. ROM would kill them before allowing Comstar secrets out. And without the black box, the HPG is the ONLY way to get a fast message out saying pick me up when their jumpship is in a different system.
Also, reread the point that the FC and DC did take over the coms once they were hit with operation scorpion and how they couldn't operate it. So why would they be able to do so before then? And don't forget. It was Walterly's hand picked aide that let the word out that operation Scorpion was going to happen. Have to look up the name.
The FC didn't learn the DC had them until the hit on Luthien by that clans. So again. Having the whole story, then retconning what you want into the past to try and remove the truth isn't going to happen. So if they started mass producing them right after Katrina handed some over, the other houses would have known about them. Which would have changed the entire 4th war. The other houses would have gotten suspicious of the coms being used by them.
So keep the timeline straight. This is a good part of why you are not understanding why things were done the way they were. They can't use the force to see into the future.
Uh, let's see. The Republic came about AFTER the houses got ahold of the HPGs. The fact Focht opened up the libraries to the IS would probably have information on how to build and maintain the HPGs. It would also stand to reason that they were taught or had some members of Comstar show others how to operate them. So when the Republic was formed, they would already have a working knowledge of the HPGs. It may well have been a condition to leave comstar running them as well.
I am wrong on the part of the IS not getting agents deep into comstar. Sharilir Mori, the DC agent that informed the DC about the operation was a very high positioned person.
And according to the wiki, more then a few stations out right refused to follow the order to shut down on their own.
Edited by ghostrider (04/16/20 08:56 PM)
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Requiem
04/17/20 12:10 AM
1.158.222.248
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You have forgotten the fact you said it wasn't logical they way they had the clans invade
All the Clans invade in their own corridor – being an IS lord, how are you going to stop it? – nuclear weapons?
Please explain …..
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What POWs?
When they invaded ….
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ROM is very efficient in making sure the story is correct.
Then why is the history of spy’s littered with the “Mata Hari” ….. and the double agent? ….. they cannot be accurate 100% of the time.
It is only when the existence of the spy becomes known will ROM be able to act, and by then it will be too late – the information will be in the hands of Hanse Davion!
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Comstar should have had access to the SLDF sneak suits, and would have upgraded them during the 300 plus years.
And provide the IS with proof that they had been hoarding advanced IS technology? …. Sorry I do not think so.
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During the 4th war, when it became apparent Comstar was protecting the CC, who would cry foul?
Hanse Davion and Quintus Allarad …. And their entire spy network!
Canon – Black Boxes exist – it is only the numbers that are in dispute!
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Operation Scorpion
“called for insurrections on all Clan occupied worlds administered by ComStar, to tie down all garrisons, as well as complete HPG Interdiction of the Successor States, to be conducted concurrently with the Battle of Tukayyid.”
Sharilar Mori
‘a complete halt to all HPG traffic across the Inner Sphere, to be maintained until the Great Houses agreed to Waterly's concessions and allow ComStar become the administrative arm of their governments’
Anyone could see this would never work!
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the other houses would have known about them.
Knowing of their existence as compared to having one are two completely different arguments.
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The Republic came about AFTER the houses got ahold of the HPGs.
So they are able to gain control over them way into the future but they are not allowed to some years earlier?
Sorry but no I cannot see how this would work?
Again another black hole in the game world as it was never truly explained.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/17/20 03:49 AM
66.74.60.165
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Explain what? You said the invasion wasn't logical. I told you why I agreed, After that, there was a long set of posts screaming that the IS couldn't handle it. Then I hear the Mongol ways would allow 4 clans to invade for the right to rule them all. Yet that is exactly what wouldn't happen. Now. Hopefully this is simple enough to end this issue. There is nothing more to explain on this subject.
Again, trying to favor the FS. Best look again. The DC had a spy that could have gotten them the information they needed to run the HPGs. So no. Not in the hands of Hanse Davion. In the hands of Takashi and Theodore. And let's not forget Thomas was part of Comstar as well. So it would stand he would have had the knowledge already. Hanse is 3rd to last in this aspect.
Maybe the 50 regiments of Star League mechs didn't say anything about them hording League tech? They could build warship engines without any issues. They had their own jumpships that no one else had any clue of how the inside of the design looked like. Yeah. I guess the sneak suits would be the only thing that would show this.
I guess they could gain control over the HPGs. I mean their time machines were working great, so why not be able to do something before you have the ability to run it. Makes pure logical sense. What a laugh. And again. THEY DID take the HPGs earlier. Just couldn't use them right. Yeah. Another black hole. You just want to continue the failed argument. But then the rest of us don't have the ability to see into the future to change it now.
Maybe they should have dropped a nuke in WWI. Oh wait. They didn't know how to make it until WWII. So what is wrong with this picture?
They should have known how to make nukes back when France ruled England, or during the building of the pyramids. Maybe the cavemen horded that secret and took it to the grave when they died.
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Requiem
04/28/20 06:25 PM
1.158.222.248
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“When the rules no longer hold any validity they must be disregarded.”
The idea that the Clans / the Inner Sphere Great Houses can create vast Empires circa 3050 is laughable.
Even using a WW2 template for the Clan Invasion, in attempting to rewrite the Clan Invasion – due to a lack of confidence in any of the underlying assumptions therefore requiring a complete restructuring of the Game and the Universe it complies with is hard to comprehend.
When one of the major issues that must be considered is what technology is available per world and how this affects the military per world.
Tharkad’s Population 7,000,000,000 in 3061 – socio Industrial Level A
Consider a country today, its population / technology, and then considers using this as a blue print, per say … Germany for example – population (2020 close to) 83,400,000
Thus Tharkad alone is approximately 84 times the size of Germany – then consider Germany’s current military …..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army
then times this by 84 ….. ie. Tharkad alone should have 15,600 conventional fighters if we hold to this assumption ……
Or look at the Terra today 7.8 Billion – Tharkad could be consider to be comparable to Terra today in size of the economy / Industry available …..
This alone would prove the scope available to the inner sphere as to conventional military vehicles – consider adding together the entire world’s military (currently) and you should have a size of Tharkad’s conventional forces available.
Only a whole Touman of an entire Clan should be considered too be able to take a world of this size and even then the damage inflicted to this Clan’s entire Touman should guarantee its destruction.
Currently the only restriction to invasions are the number of ships (Jump and Drop) available
Over time therefore War should have become almost obsolete within the Battletech Universe as only back water worlds who have a low population and a low socio industrial level could be considered a viable target, as any other world with a high population / technology should be able to create a vast conventional military that could fend off any invasion (unless Battlemech Regiments attack forces are in the size of small armies 30 – 40 RCTs or nukes and warships (orbital bombardments) are considered in taking a single world of this size and technology).
The idea that even a technologically advanced culture such as the Clans are able to take and hold such a world as Thakad (similar population size / technology) becomes ludicrous. Only a whole Clan’s Touman can be considered to take a world of this size – and then the idea of governing it, if taken, then becomes impossible unless a minority of the locals assist the Clans and all the Lyran forces have been defeated. (And yet the partisan war would just be starting …..)
Sorry to say but I am no longer convinced as to the argument the Inner Sphere’s and the Clans military could be considered to be so small as given - the idea that a single Clan could take and hold an empire as large as the 3150 maps becomes all but impossible considering their ridiculously small population per Clan.
(Though when attempting to read novels from the 3130’s era I have nothing but contempt – I was unable to read to the end Fortress Republic novel before throwing it at the wall – I have thus come to the conclusion to give up on the history of Jihad onwards)
Thus why I am attempting to re-write the game world into something I can believe in ….
That said I have come to conclusion to re-write the Clans with a SLDF origin story … my alternative to the ‘Clans’ therefore:-
The Clans – If they could be rewritten into another format what would it be? What would you choose?
Their creation:-
Why would people (civilians not soldiers) undertake an exodus and become refugees – ans:- war, economic or environmental;
The Exodus - I cannot understand why would Kerensky would choose only to save his military, and at the same time abandon the people he was promised to protect? Why would the military abandon their homes and their families after they have spent such a considerable amount of time and blood regaining them only to just up and leave? This is completely illogical assumption as to its viability (in my opinion)!
In my opinion there is therefore only two real choices –
First, the exodus should have been people / military form Amaris’ Rim Worlds Republic; or
Second, DURING the Amaris / Kerensky war people from within the Terran Hegemony fled the war…. Were unable to find a new world to settle and thus fled IS for parts unknown.
For me ….
As for Kerensky and the SLDF – pyrrhic victory – they virtually destroyed themselves winning against Amaris. As such they were unable to stave off the ravages of the First Succession war – Kerensky and the SLDF should have gone down fighting within the Hegemony against the Houses, and their attempt to take the throne by force.
Thus (in my opinion), the ‘Clans’ should have come from Amaris and the RWR – which would make more sense given their lack of any humanity and their desire for racial superiority and their use of human ‘slaves’ (Castes other than Warrior) to create their society. Thus the Clans could remain in their current incarnation except for the point of being part of the Rim Worlds rather than being a part of the SLDF.
The decision to Invade then also becomes more plausible – re-establishment of a new Rim Worlds republic – both a political and military objective that can be considered to make some sense. As it makes considerably more sense than the war games the current clans are playing – fighting to be the first to take Terra to become the Il-Clan …..? Politically and militarily, this never really made any real sense to me! Fighting for the sake of fighting shows only how the SLDF completely lost their founding ideals from the egalitarian Star League.
As for individual Clans – I would convert them into Roman Legions – Clan Wolf thus becomes 1st Legion - Clan Wolf – and as for the Il-Khan, this person becomes “Amaris” (in the same way Caesar became a title from a name.)
And the Clans become a single military unit ….. and due to the environmental conditions upon the worlds they currently reside it has become to survive – thus the decision to return to the Inner Sphere to once more re-establish the RWR – to re-colonize their lost worlds – worlds that are more conducive to a prosperous life ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/30/20 05:23 AM
1.158.222.248
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What will this mean for the Universe …..
An Invasion of “Terra” scenario for most invasions would eventuate …..
Thus for any future invasions you would have to actively research your target world as to their Lord’s dedicated military forces that has been built up by on-world manufacturing facilities.
This would therefore require an amendment to the socio economic value A to ?
Where A gives you access to all new Vehicle designs for your house
B the last TRO; …… all the way to the bottom of the list where all you have is a civilian vehicle with an old AC/5 welded onto the back of it ……
And the size of the population will also be used as a way to determine the Infantry per world and their access to support weapon systems
Plus it would also mean all of the Houses / Clans would have to increase the size of their Battlemech units to Army size Groups.
It would also make all raids far more dangerous than previously thought about.
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/30/20 05:23 AM)
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ghostrider
04/30/20 07:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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The DC would not have become a thing had the populations really been considered. It is a realm of conquest from the beginning. If people went on the guerilla side of the conflict, the amount of troops to invade a single world, would have been far more then they would raise and move to attack. This was before mechs were even made.
Considering the numbers of people, the Terran Alliance would have never even tried to keep the colonies in the fold. Population is bad enough, but when you add distances like a single jump to multiple jumps, you just can not even believe you can keep anything by force. Well, not without local support.
The ENTIRE jumpship and dropship designs have to be redone and upgraded to far larger versions, with Warships looking like the average for a jumpship, but far more dropship hardpoints. And with this, the entire HPG network would probably never have been consolidated, as each would be ruler would seize the stations as soon as they started a fight. No call for help would be very helpful in the initial stages at this point. Then false information would help reduce those available as well as increase the arms the revolt would have. Understrength units walking into 'friendly' areas comes to mind.
Supply lines? Yeah. Good luck with that one.
I doubt the IS states would have formed, as there is no real way to enforce any sort of military action against more then one world at a time, and each would be a nightmare with that.
So I would suggest watching how far you go along that route.
It will show you why almost all of the scifi stories with far flung planets isn't as appealing as some would think. And wars would be more raids then full invasions. The numbers needed far exceed what can be moved, and even then, how many will be willing to go from defending their home world to attacking someone else?
Not that it isn't a bad idea. Just one that has issues on it's own.
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Requiem
05/01/20 12:43 AM
1.158.222.248
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The DC would not have become a thing had the populations really been considered.
The great houses formed due to economic and self defense treaties – Naval forces (protection from Nuclear Armageddon).
Large Populations require large food production capabilities and as a consequence a large transport capabilities - it also necessitates a Large schooling and healthcare etc.
Thus with any large society they should also have a large military force at the bare minimum infantry and conventional vehicles in proportion with the population of the world.
During the age of the Star League there were legal restrictions as to their size. However with the fall of the Star League every vehicle production business could very easily re-tool to produce military lines and over time these should become massive for highly socio industrialized worlds (A) and a reduction in size (quality of vehicles etc.)from B to C etc.
The idea that the only true military force is that of the Battlemech cannot be considered to be factual. (even though ever book takes this as fact!).
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Considering the numbers of people, the Terran Alliance would have never even tried to keep the colonies in the fold.
Naval power has always been and always will be the king of the Battlefield, and as such they always had the largest Navy.
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Population is bad enough, but when you add distances like a single jump to multiple jumps, you just can not even believe you can keep anything by force. Well, not without local support.
It comes down to the technology and the size of the population of the world – as well as the size of the invading force.
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The ENTIRE jumpship and dropship designs have to be redone and upgraded to far larger versions, with Warships looking like the average for a jumpship, but far more dropship hardpoints.
To maintain an effective economy within the inner sphere the number of Jumpships / Jumpship production facilities must be increased by an exponential amount.
The HPG network is a main stain of the universe – economic / military development – they cannot be removed.
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I doubt the IS states would have formed, as there is no real way to enforce any sort of military action against more then one world at a time
Against highly developed worlds – given the level of Jumpships available within the current battletech universe – this would be all but impossible – against Periphery worlds with little to no population / development – these become viable targets.
This is the point given the current technology 20th Century / early 21st Century technology upon every world at a minimum – if there is a sizeable population there WILL be a sizeable military backed up with a sizable conventional armor / VTOL / Air with regiments into the hundreds. Why – every world must be self sufficient – thus taking the logic to its natural end they must also have a massive infrastructure to support that population.
i.e. If they have an earth similar population of 7 Billion then they must also have all the industries that earth does right now! – add them all together and it becomes clear as to the size of an earth relative world has right now – the only questions would be as to the number of BattleMech units they would also have.
In all reality I believe that every world, with a sizeable population and a high socio-industrial level, should have their own …
Battlemech Manufacturing facility
Jumpship Manufacturing Facility
Some kind of orbiting space station to facilitate trade with large Dropships that are unable to land on the surface of the world they orbit.
It just does not make sense that worlds (within the Battletech Universe) whose populations are comparable with Earth (now) do not have access to these facilities.
Thus in all reality the Battletech universe’s military as given are incredibly under strength.
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I doubt the IS states would have formed, as there is no real way to enforce any sort of military action against more then one world at a time, and each would be a nightmare with that.
Again – economic reasons would force individual worlds to form an empire as well as a strong Navy. (Protection from the other realm’s Navy).
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So I would suggest watching how far you go along that route.
How can we not go down this route? When you have a population of 7 Billion on one world – this is comparable to Earth now – how can we not say this world MUST have a massive industry base to keep it operational – thus it MUST have a vast Army to protect it which also has a vast armor / VTOL / fighter support base (as we have now). Q.E.D.
Thus the majority of every world which was attacked during the clan Invasion could have kicked them off given their own forces on their world if they just use 1 galaxy per world? In all reality the entire games core basis must be held up to and say this just does not make sense, the idea that the limited fighting forces as per each House book is all they have becomes a ludicrous concept. What these numbers represent is what they can transport given the minimal number of jumpships available – it does in no way represent what is on each world.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/01/20 01:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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If worlds are self sufficient, wouldn't that tend to run counter to needing off world support or supplies?
The need for an interstellar trade fleet wouldn't really be needed, except for sales of thins you have extra of. So with a good defense network/navy, there is no real need to rely on others.
With each house, there has been several times where a civil war/reunification war was fought, and this would allow large amounts of 'independent' worlds to throw off the government that isn't on the world. Feudalism only goes so far, which it something I think the game really doesn't dwell into. The unification into large realms would fall apart under it's own governmental weight.
With the canon game, the explanation of why each world doesn't have battlemech factories is plausible. Having them wiped out, and couldn't keep them rebuilt does make sense.
Dropships might be an issue, where Jumpships would definitely be an issue. The elements for the F-K core would be the down fall of keeping a jumpship yard in all systems. You would need to change the resources for each system to allow such a 'luxury'.
Didn't say don't go down the road. Just watch how far it goes. As stated, there would really be no way to get the forces to other worlds in the numbers and timely enough to really do much more then just destroy the factories and livelihoods of those living on that world. How many men stormed Normandy, and it was still a blood bath. And that wasn't the only place there were battles going on. And here is were the game has it right. It is very difficult to defend against an enemy that can get their bulk of forces down about anywhere on a world. Yes, some worlds are limited, such as a lack of landmass, but in the most part, using Terra, you have plenty of places you can get down forces. Then again, there are plenty of places a defender can hide.
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Requiem
05/01/20 03:09 AM
1.158.222.248
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If worlds are self sufficient, wouldn't that tend to run counter to needing off world support or supplies?
Behemoth – Dropship – Mass 100,000 - Cargo – 74,972 tons (68,013,454Kg)
An average person can eat 2.5 to 4.5 Kg per day – thus to even supply enough food for 50% of the population of a single Earth like world at 7,000,000,000 people world for one day @ 2.5 KG per person you would require 129 Behemoths per day and 100% of the world thus 258 per day.
Can you actually say there is any combinations of worlds that can manufacture and supply this amount and have it delivered?
Thus, this becomes an absurd concept.
All colonized worlds must be close to 100% self sufficiency when it comes to food – if not the excess population must be transported to a world than can support them – that is unless you decide to allow the excess population to just starve.
Interstellar trade (given the limited number of Jumpships and dropships available) can be said to be used to transport luxury goods only (given the limited amount of cargo any one ship can transport).
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Feudalism only goes so far
Yes – most Dukedoms (like those of the FS Marches) could quite easily declare independence.
If taken to its logical conclusion there could have been about 100 fiefdoms the size of the Isle of Skye all throughout the Inner Sphere – though again the trump card of the Navy comes to mind, for those that are capable of producing a larger navy than their neighbors they could readily conquer them and expand in size. Thus reducing the Initial 100 down to something more manageable of 14 to 15 Dukedoms.
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The unification into large realms would fall apart under it's own governmental weight.
Not so – Historically the bureaucracy on each world would just have to report to its regional control world and that to the central command world – it is just two more levels – it should be simple – especially when you consider their entire government is run by computers not by people (just as we have now)
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With the canon game, the explanation of why each world doesn't have battlemech factories is plausible. Having them wiped out, and couldn't keep them rebuilt does make sense.
Completely disagree – even with late 20th / early 21st Century Technology we can create mega factories that can create massive numbers of vehicles on a production line as well as the computers that go into them
Creating a BattleMech assembly line is not that much different – the only real problem is the exotic materials used to manufacture them – however if substitutes could be found then the idea of Mass production per world becomes a reality.
This is the only limiter – materials.
And this is why every mega corporation would have their own survey fleet looking for every find they can so that they can send in the miners to get it.
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Dropships might be an issue, where Jumpships would definitely be an issue. The elements for the F-K core would be the down fall of keeping a jumpship yard in all systems. You would need to change the resources for each system to allow such a 'luxury'.
Then how were they able to do this during the Star League Age?
Over time every House should be able to manufacture to achieve the pre-Star League Numbers – by 3150 it should have become a reality. But what we got was something far more depressing a Science fiction game without the science fiction.
This is just it – every major world should have its own production / repair yard built into their space-station above the world – Commerce – to transfer people and goods – with a constant stream of shuttles from the planet to the station.
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As stated, there would really be no way to get the forces to other worlds in the numbers and timely enough to really do much more then just destroy the factories and livelihoods of those living on that world.
Not so – every major world invaded would have to be on the same scope as the Terra invasion (a Normandy) – backwater worlds would require far less to invade.
Finally the game can evolve from small to the massive!
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It is very difficult to defend against an enemy that can get their bulk of forces down about anywhere on a world.
And Rommel is once more proven correct – you must not let them get off the beaches.
As for hiding – they would have to take out all satellites first – then there are the massive number of AWACs / Radar that can pinpoint a LZ – that is unless someone decides to create a stealth drop ship.
This is the true reality of the game – there must be massive conventional forces on worlds that have a high population and a high socio-economic rating – they must have a massive infrastructure to keep the people fed etc (requiring a massive logistics trucks trains ships etc.) so by extension there must also be a massive conventional military (armor / VTOL / fighter).
Q.E.D.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/01/20 10:39 PM
1.158.222.248
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What is required now is a standardization factor based upon population and socio-economic rating to determine minimum conventional forces available ….. given that the Inner Sphere has been in a state of almost constant war for a extremely long period of time I believe this should be considered to high …. Especially if some worlds have a national conscription of all individuals between the ages of 18 to 23 – and then they are placed on a reserve status for a further 5 years (thus if required the world has the possibility of increasing their military’s infantry size quite considerably – overnight).
Each world must have a degree of uniqueness but they also must have a standard army as dictated by their Liege Lord who demands of their Aristocracy a standing army to defend their world in the event of an attack – and who can defend their world until reinforcements can arrive.
This is the true missing army of the Inner Sphere and that is somehow overlooked by the present TPTB – every world must have their own self defense force, the question is the size of their TO&E – and their access to available technology?
Each individual world must be considered unique … however, each Great House must have a list of vehicles they have access to – this should them be uses as the basis for each worlds technology with more recent technological developments allowed to only A and B socio economic worlds and every 5 years (or there about) be allowed to reduced socio economic worlds and so on and so forth.
The size of every worlds military should also be a factor of their population.
This will also have a unique side effect when it comes to the clan invasion – many more clans must participate in the invasion however a reduced number of worlds can be invaded per invasion wave as when it comes to an invasion of a large world with a high socio industrial rating an entire Clans touman must be applied to the invasion of this one world ( as per the Invasion of Terra).
Also when it comes to invading Capital worlds – DC Luthien – the two clans complete Toumans must be used for the invasion – where the invasion will last over a year to fight from beginning to end …..
However the basic differences for the IS –
Lyrans – more larger tracked tanks – panzer etc are used
FWL – move overall vehicles – all size etc.
CC – more aerospace / VTOL than any other House – most advanced fighters
FS – standard number / size – standard mix of everything
DC – more smaller hover are utilized
Periphery – more smaller easy to maintain vehicles (ICE) – older fighter / vehicle classes
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/03/20 06:26 PM
1.158.222.248
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… and thus the entire clan invasion becomes highly questionable as well as the entire games history into question, when you consider that the entire forces available to any of the Houses is just their own regular military and any available mercenary forces - The idea that the World’s Lord and Government of a planet would not have a standing military each, given that they have been in a state of constant war since the fall of the Star League, is quite without doubt ludicrous.
It then comes down to the size of any military force that each could have and that could be considered realistic given the worlds overall population, socio-economic situation and economy’s GDP and the wealth of the Lord in question.
Given an earth standard population of 7bn and a similar economy it is quite realistic the Government of this Battletech World they could quite conceivably be maintaining a massive conventional fighting forces – that somehow never made it to the canon Clan invasion battlefield and just rolled over when the standing army was pushed off world (on every world that was invaded?) makes little to no sense.
The entire game-system of determining a viable world and the forces used to invade and conquer any world must now be reassessed.
As is it is very hard to believe such a very small military per house would even be considered viable.
The only way the Battletech scenario could be considered is if the Inner Sphere is reduced in size to that of the size of Lyrans – Skye province – EVERY world has undergone multiple nuclear strikes in which no major cities remain and the population of EVERY world has been reduced considerably – thus the lack of technology (back to 1960’s in 3020’s and by 3050 and increase to 1990’s to early Star League (depending on the world) technology and by 3060 can we say a return to Star League era tech for every Inner Sphere world?
Sorry to say but I am now lost when it comes to the size and composition of any worlds true military strength.
New Avalon - Just over 7bn in people – A rated (except for raw materials) – and somehow it only has such a very small standing army - 3 RCTs at best?
Luthien – 7bn people at the time of the clans invasion – all A rated (except for raw materials and Agricultural dependence) – and when the clans invade the war was only Mech to Mech? – sorry to say but I find this entire scenario now completely implausible – where are the massive civilian transport vehicle manufacturing businesses who keep the flow of the economy moving with all the goods and services required by a population of 7bn who at the same time would be producing conventional military vehicles?
Is there something wrong with the core concept of the game with regards to the small amount of military units available?
To me the answer is yes – the number of units available to every world due to their population and technology must have been included into the game – the lack of it is now a huge black hole that I cannot reconcile with.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/04/20 12:17 AM
66.74.60.165
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Starting to drift back into the developers didn't have a clue for anything. This is where it starts having issues.
As it is very likely, the developers did in fact think about the numbers of people that would be required for a real invasion and hostile take over, the fact had to be toned down to make the game playable.. Every sci fi game to date has ignored the fact that when under attack, more then just the reserves would come to fight.
Now as this is about mechs, not sludging thru hundreds of thousands of infantry, it is understandable that they overlook that fact. The game does have militias and standing local armies, but they tend to be on more important worlds.
The fact that the supply chain is lacking real numbers shows why dropships and jumpships are just not right for the economy, much less the military strikes. Case in point. The books says that Hespertus does not grow enough food for the Defiance factories, much less any other population on that world. A real siege would stop the flow of needed food, and water, as the planet is supposed to be dry, would be a prime reason any naval weapon based platform should be found there at the very least.
There are supposed to be agriculture worlds scattered around the IS just to produce food for other worlds. This sounds off, as the cost for transporting such food would cause worlds that buy it to have outrageous prices on them.
With the recent rash of armed conflicts in the world, a lot of militaries are having an issue filling their ranks. Now put that in this situation. People are trying to work their lands or other jobs to feed their families. Getting into the military is more likely to get you pulled off world to guard someone elses lands. Even militias and such get moved from time to time. It wasn't just the concentrated weakness that does this.
Rebuilding after a raid is hard enough, but to have a full blown fight go on is even harder. Governments have more then just defense they have to deal with through out their entire nation. Taking out construction vehicles every time they show up to do the work starts the chain. Supplies being destroyed and such. With high tech, taking out those experienced in rebuilding comes to mind. It isn't just the military or ruling houses that murder people because they don't or do want something done. A rival business may well do so, in order to force their company to get the contract, as the other one obviously can't get it done. This isn't a fantasy game where everyone rides unicorns. Solaris is an extreme example, but something that happens on all worlds.
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ghostrider
05/04/20 12:32 AM
66.74.60.165
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The example of mega factories being built doesn't fit in the canon universe. Or maybe it does. Try and find a new Yugo. Oh yeah. That factory was blown up in their civil war, and couldn't be rebuilt.
With sites being nuked, you can't just rebuild what was still intact.
Even normal bombs and naval weapons, the site could well be beyond redemption. And that isn't even getting into destruction of mine and other resources needed.
The SL needed new resources, so those worlds near Terra should have been hard to rebuild without outside sources. Well when your supplies run into a trickle, there is only so much you can do with the little you have. And as all feudal societies tended to do, the political and rich people got their stuff worked on first. And I am not talking real defenses, but more of the gold armor sitting in the display case concepts.
Now going with the need for more infantry and such to take and hold a world. How many 7 billion pop worlds are you going to take and hold? What ratio of infantry to civilians do you need? 1 in ten means 700 million soldiers stuck on that world. 1 in a thousand? Would that be too little? How many hostile worlds can you really hold like that?
With this example of 10 to 1. You have lost 1/10th of your population to just garrison the other world. Not soldiers, because I seriously doubt you have that many on your entire world before hand. The training alone would say this isn't going to be the case.
Which is why I said to be careful.
3 RCTs on New Avalon is like that as they are well behind the lines, with the troops needed more elsewhere.
But that is the garrison units. What isn't there is units rotating in for refit, or R&R, as well as just being moved to a new world. Training happens there as well. So 6 RCTs worth of troops would be more likely.
And that very issue you were harping on with the clans is very true with rebuilding the houses. Supply lines will be hit and hit hard. The enemy that did the hit is going to know you need certain parts. And will make sure you don't get them as best they can. Try and build a city without power, or heavy equipment. Mechs can only do so much. And that is IF they have hands.
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Requiem
05/04/20 05:14 AM
1.158.230.207
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the fact had to be toned down to make the game playable
1. Battleforce;
2. Creating a game whereby your unit is part of a larger War;
Both are a viable course of action.
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Every sci fi game to date has ignored the fact that when under attack, more then just the reserves would come to fight.
Warhammer? Satr Wars? Even D&D? …..
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Now as this is about mechs, not sludging thru hundreds of thousands of infantry, it is understandable that they overlook that fact.
What happened to the 4th Succession War?
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The game does have militias and standing local armies, but they tend to be on more important worlds.
And this makes sense … how?
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Hesperus does not grow enough food for the Defiance factories
Population 3025 – 55,000 – this is quite understandable considering the population of an entire planet is less than that of a small town. The majority of people would be working in the plant, there is next to nil working in the field / food processing. As such they could easily stockpile massive quantities of food in the event of a siege.
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a lot of militaries are having an issue filling their ranks
Dependent upon each world’s individual economy …. Plus their law – National Service is applicable to many countries, so why not on many worlds as this would make common sense when you have been at war for the past 200+ years …..
Thus each GM must make this call on a per world basis ….
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Rebuilding after a raid is hard enough.
SOP – however with a massive conventional military the probability of a raid will decrease considerably.
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The example of mega factories being built doesn't fit in the canon universe. Or maybe it does.
With 7,000,000,000 people on one world – explain how they build vehicles for the people of the entire world or how about a cannery for food even? An earth equivalent world say otherwise.
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With sites being nuked, you can't just rebuild what was still intact.
When was that last nuke used? Over 100 plus years – so this doesn’t hold water!
How many ithr worlds have the technology so all you need to do is just rebuild it – it would take the entire IS (every world and every city and every school / university) to be destroyed at the same time to get this situation – and as it never occurred it cannot be considered a viable scenario.
Also not all aristocrats were me first – the people last – many looked after their people before themselves
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Now going with the need for more infantry and such to take and hold a world. How many 7 billion pop worlds are you going to take and hold?
How many did the Clans take or at least try to take? Where was the logic then? It is quite easy to say you could have 100’s of infantry and conventional armor units and thousands of conventional fighters / bombers / VTOLs on these worlds – so really good luck on even attempting this ….
Which is why the game has an issue when this is looked at carefully.
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3 RCTs on New Avalon is like that as they are well behind the lines, with the troops needed more elsewhere.
And so you don’t believe a capitol world should be adequately garrisoned?
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Training happens there as well. So 6 RCTs worth of troops would be more likely.
So far away from the front lines – sorry but I do not think so – R&R need to be close enough so that they can be sent in ASAP in the event of a full scale invasion – and not 3 months away by Jump-Ship.
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And that very issue you were harping on with the clans is very true with rebuilding the houses. Supply lines will be hit and hit hard. The enemy that did the hit is going to know you need certain parts. And will make sure you don't get them as best they can.
Isn’t this the reason why you have marines – as well as a navy with mass aerospace fighter protection – and when on ground this is why you have the army to protect the heavy equipment!
So try and attack – and any house unit should have an adequate defense depending upon its importance.
This is just it the reality of mass populations and socio economic conditions must be considered – it creates a void when it is not considered for many worlds.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/04/20 12:03 PM
66.74.60.165
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Battleforce seemed to be the answer to Warhammer for making large battles playable, faster. Playing the original BattleTech is far more fun.
Battleforce is more armor and weapons then movement for deciding who wins.
That is correct. Warhammer, Star Wars, D&D, as well as others don't come close to really showing what population does when under attack. Even without direct physical violence, they can resist an enemy. Granted, not as effective as using a weapon, but still works. The 'dirty' war is what comes from the population calculations. Might well be why most games stay away from that.
The 4th war had mechs being the big planet takers. It looks like they realized the CC worlds would not sit still without boots on the ground, and mechs just don't cut crowd control.
How does the world work? Money and politics. Look at the budgets for countries and see just how much is spent on defense, and where most of that is sitting at.
As one example suggests, how do you stockpile food, when it isn't grown in quantities that can be shipped out as such? So 55,000 behemoth ships required at least once a year if not more to move the food, if you can find it. No scout jumpships can hande the behemoth, so that cuts out more then a few jumpships. So do the math and make up the Defiance manifest of what they had and need. Simplicity ignore facts, but there are times when it has to in order to make it playable.
Each game master can have advanced combat robots and skip mechs entirely if they want to. But this isn't a discussion about that. This is a discussion about logic being in the forefront of wars. There is no real way to enforce every person serving the military mandate. The sheer size of some worlds would make that impossible, as the budget really doesn't allow for that. The cost in weapons alone for infantry would screw them up. But actual budgets don't exist in the math being done here. The government has so much money popping out their backsides that they can afford to buy what ever they want. Which isn't real.
Raids will happen, no matter how big your army is. It may not be your city/world, but it will happen. And once they have to hit you, and can't do it without losing a lot of units, they will resort to more simple means. Nukes and dropping meteors, after taking out those defenses comes to mind. Infiltration and shutting down detection is another. Bombing those facilities if they have to. There would be total war, not the limited stuff of the game. Replacing the tech prevents a lot of it from being destroyed. And the people working it? Even more expendable.
How does say the tribal African countries rebuild, or even build a mega factory without outside help? If just relying on their own people and resources, they can't keep something going, as they will be raids from others. If nothing else, just to make sure you don't have it. This is not saying they are incapable of attempting it, but the fact is, they are still in the war tribe idealism. It is the same thing as the rest of the world, but more violent then others.
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ghostrider
05/04/20 12:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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Another point on the factory situation. How many car manufacturers are in the world today? How many are in direct competition of each other?
How many would not continue to rebuild factories in areas that they would be constantly damaged and need security to try and prevent this? None that I know of. They would build in a safer location and ship in the product. Charge more for having less costs. Sounds like business?
Ah, even around 3025, there was not a time of a hundred years that a nuke wasn't used. And with the idea that all the planets would have a much larger military base, would mean invaders would have to cut the numbers down, otherwise they would not have the troops to hit a second world. Sounds familiar?
A 100k invasion force is alls you had to take over a country(world). No way to reinforce it, as that is all you have to attack with. Maybe even defenders in there. So one world requires more then that to take, and yet, you have 4 more worlds to take, just to keep your world safe. There is your numbers game you want.
And even with the greater numbers, the idea that all of them are guarding only one facility gives rise to illogical deployment as well as the increase in raids as you are so far away from targets, they can take and destroy it quickly and be gone before you can get there. And not all raiders are from outside of your governments reach.
Losing information starts resulting in the noble elite rise in the universe. Those with it, are less likely to spread it around, as it is a powerful tool you can use to become the leader. Teachers become harder and harder to find and employ. They become a target, so your enemy doesn't have your level of tech. A slow bleed can happen, though as said in other threads, specialized tech is the hardest to stop, as no one will be willing to help others maintain it.
Again. ALL games have issues when you look at just how many troops needed for occupation in an area that has a hatred for an invader. The question of how many worlds can you take isn't about the clans or the game. You wanted to use pop numbers to determine defense. Now show us where that is more preferable over the glossing over them to make the game fun.
Also, with this, the ENTIRE history of the game would be changed from the moment the first colonist landed on the first world outside of the Sol system. So the game's setting would be completely different.
With every world making everything they need, why would they want to have a ruler above them, when they could take the spot themselves?
What is adequately garrisoned? Keeping the enemy from penetrating that far is a better idea, as that means other worlds don't require the adequate garrison. Meaning more troops for the front defense line as well as invading the enemy. This doesn't support trying to suggest more defenses forces will allow the game to be the same, or even fun.
It was questioned why vehicles were in huge numbers, but mech on mech action seems the main attraction. No one really wants to chew thru a dozen tank companies, just to reach a single goal. They want mech on mech action. I don't like that idea, but agree with the concept. To hit a target, a lance on lance of mech is more fun then playing the grinding game of lance of mechs on a company of vehicles.
Having massive armies would be great, but the costs are why you don't for the most part. Then add in trying to keep all worlds up to 'par' with tech and even manufacturing as well as other services makes it even more unlikely, as rebuilding any losses means even more money that you don't have. And without running rebellions from the taxes required to get those funds, there really isn't much of a way to do this.
On paper, it sounds great. I do agree that there should be more defensive units, but without adding in the reality of what it costs, it goes to the other extreme of the problem. Not enough, to far to many.
Again. Consider the number of troopers per population ratio. Not to invade, but defend.
After a while, the money spent for a huge military gets questioned, especially when company, not enemy, propaganda takes hold.
Why should you suffer the station wagon, when your neighbor has the lush new SUV that self drives? Demand your new SUV today.
This alone causes so much disruption, and it is the very thing companies do. This is what you wanted for the clans, but yet isn't being figured in here.
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Requiem
05/04/20 05:37 PM
1.158.188.5
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Battleforce = Macro and Battletech = Micro;
Battle for Terra – how is this considered not to be a viable game, when what I am considering is that every world’s battle must now be considered from this point of view?
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Warhammer, Star Wars, D&D, as well as others don't come close to really showing what population does when under attack.
Sorry but I disagree – Role-playing games can easily have this situation – miniatures can also have this situation when you take it into a city tech type (or other) game. Just create a new game piece called unarmed / armed citizen and move them around the board –running from / to the battle in the same war infantry move then just come up with some house rules for them.
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Might well be why most games stay away from that.
WOB – Nuclear, Chemical, Reeducation Camps, etc
Caleb – and what he did
Yes they really do stay away from that!
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The 4th war
Atlas – how many battles show the movement of armor and infantry and not just the Mechs
This is what is lacking – this Atlas should have been the template for all future books when discussing future battles – why was this model dropped – too difficult to produce?
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How does the world work? Money and politics. Look at the budgets for countries and see just how much is spent on defense, and where most of that is sitting at.
3-5% of GDP is not a difficult question to answer – it is also not difficult if you look at the population / socio economic factor of a world and make a determinant based upon a rough template based upon the House you come under and the types of vehicles that you can have (templates in the back of the 4th SW Atlas have them) – Infantry 1 to 2% of population are your standing army is also readily quantifiable – then placing them near cities / important sites is also easy to determine and place on the board.
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Defiance
Hesperus population - 55,000 people x 4.5 Kg (max food) x 365 days = 90,337,500Kg per year;
One Behemoth = 68,013,454Kg;
So all I need is two per year if they are completely unable to make their own food – or I move farmers to the world and set up a dedicated food transport system and hey presto after a short period of time they are completely self sufficient.
Which could have been done very easily on the day it opened for business. So why it took 200+ years to set up a dedicated food system for this facility is the real question that needs to be answered.
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The government has so much money popping out their backsides that they can afford to buy what ever they want. Which isn't real.
This is why you create templates to simulate a hypothetical world within each of the Great Houses as what they do / do not have access to …..
1 – 2 % of population given = standing infantry; then divide this by the number of people in a Regiment = No. of regiments – then divide this by three and this will give you the number of frontline units in comparison to support units you have of the entire world – then assign an equal amount to every important city / site.
Armor / VTOL / Aerospace – as per template you created for your House unit based upon population of world / socio economic values …. Not that difficult!
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Nukes and dropping meteors, after taking out those defenses comes to mind.
WOB Jihad era onwards – prior to this was only used (Chemical) in the CC – so unless you want the entire IS as well as ComStar against your unit, you will not use this tactic.
Plus there are rules of war when it comes to civilians and the destruction of civilian property.
It comes down to the era you are in and the level of damage you wish to inflict – which is a players / GM discretion.
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Periphery
The periphery rebuild has always been difficult – lack of education; spare parts etc – look at how the 3 world operates now as an example. Suggest you also look at China’s one belt one road policy to how they are assisting African countries modernize they are assisting many Countries over the world to modernize / assisting with governance / heath-care etc – so why not the other great houses – CC Sun Tzu and MoC is an example.
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Business Market Viability
Market viability – Companies move their production facilities to where they can generate least costs – maximum profit.
The same can be said of the IS – major companies will move their facilities to worlds that offer them financial incentive to do so – or the Government decided to build and own their own and retains them as such – rather than selling them off which has become a trend in the last 30-40 years to gain quick revenue.
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invaders would have to cut the numbers down, otherwise they would not have the troops to hit a second world.
If you want to go down this scenario that is your prerogative – me I would bypass for a more realistic objective that I could take and hold. Unless you want to put in the maximum effort for just one world that is.
As for raiders – they will now have to contend with the local forces – considering the size of some of the Lyran Tanks this could end up being quite lethal.
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Losing information
Consider the number of libraries established and availability of information in the star league.
Then consider the number of world that were destroyed in the Succession wars and the number of Worlds that were never touched – Capitol worlds even, the loss of information as espoused by the game CANNOT be considered viable there are just too many schools / universities / business training facilities on too many worlds that were never hit during any world for the entirety of all knowledge on every wold to just deteriorate over time, this is just not plausible, it is not possible in an interstellar society with thousands of worlds unless you bomb EVERY world / space station / warship / Jump-ship back to next to nothing – restricting access to information because you fear the populace is a CC way of doing things – it is not the way of the FWL, FS, LC as it is bad for business and only hurts the realm in the long run.
A better educated society has a greater chance of improving the economy, being more stable, producing better weapon systems and establishing a higher functioning military.
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What is adequately garrisoned?
It will now require gamers to actually think about their next move – rather than just blindly rushing in – they will now how to actually research their target and work out in advance if they have the forces to get the job done – or they come up with a strategic plan as a work around.
“No one really wants to chew thru a dozen tank companies, just to reach a single goal.”
Then work out a plan so you don’t have to! Or create a weapon that has made all vehicles other than Mechs / Aerospace fighters / Elementals obsolete!
Otherwise recognize that on worlds with high populations / high socio economic factors that it will be undeniable that you will have to face massive numbers of conventional forces.
Or just stick to the idea that the Universe is meant to be Fun and in no way should it ever be realistic and we should just ignore anything that comes close being rational as fun trumps rational every time.
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Having massive armies would be great, but the costs are why you don't for the most part. Then add in trying to keep all worlds up to 'par' with tech and even manufacturing as well as other services makes it even more unlikely, as rebuilding any losses means even more money that you don't have.
1 to 2% of GDP is too much money to establish a dedicated military force – and is too much to maintain and keep operational – then how does every major country on Earth do so today? The same would hold true for every world within the Inner Sphere and beyond – population / socio-economic development = 1-2% and even up to 5% military with weapons as per their level of technology.
This is not an unreasonable cost that every world cannot accommodate eg. NATO requirements.
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updated technology
The costs of updating technology – Canon stated that the costs of establishing Clan tech was so prohibitive no one could do it within the IS as an answer as to why the IS could not create Clan weapon tech.
Sorry but I find this to be trite – Yes every House would initiate such an initiative even to the point of going into debt with a massive bond rollout – over time economies of scale would kick in, especially when every fighter, vehicle and mech has become an omni weapon system – maintenance / procurement costs would decrease over time – Large initial outlay, however over time (up to 50 years economically) the massive savings would make this a viable economic / military option for any Inner Sphere House.
So in any real IS setting every Great House should have acquired a new SUV – what was suggested within Cannon has no real place in a sane economy / military.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/05/20 02:23 AM
66.74.60.165
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You want larger games that take days to make a single move, that is your choice. Most of the players would like to end a combat in the night they started in. So having 2 million people per side singularly moving isn't fun for most of us.
Games may well stay away from dealing with the dirty side of war, is not talking about nukes and such. It is talking about torture(interrogation), assassination, and other things that most consider completely horrible. Though assassination seems to be something video games love, ie sniper games.
There were a few that showed infantry and armor. I want to say two were pure infantry and armor, no mechs. Start playing the RPG if you want to get into the infantry actions. As a whole, most aren't fond of armor fights, infantry is much lower on the scale. Armored infantry might be worth it, as they can take out a mech.
Where money goes was about the need of troops, verse where they actually go to guard things. The rich and politically graced get the troops to guard them, long before those that actually do the work, like farm. Now with your 5%, you had better hope you are making a lot, because a few million just isn't going to cut it.
I love this next one. Why didn't Defiance create water on a world that was water poor to begin with? Maybe it used the iceburg method to get more there, and when that company was destroyed, they didn't have any alternatives. So being self sufficient isn't possible. Unless you know of some way to turn dust into water that we don't know about, it isn't that simple.
And maybe there was a chain going, and it was blown to hell as well. Not just the ships, but the worlds where the items come from. Maybe checking out some of the countries that are always in some sort of civil disorder might explain why they can't rebuild.
But then that would take the argument out of the conversation quickly. Better just ignore that and continue to take pot shots to see what might stick.
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ghostrider
05/05/20 02:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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This is why you create templates to simulate a hypothetical world within each of the Great Houses as what they do / do not have access to …..
I asked for something like this from a single company and it was refused to even attempt to do this. So why is it being brought up like it wasn't covered before? Show us the numbers for Defiance before suggesting it is easy and needs to be done with all the worlds. Honestly, I don't know even a tenth of the worlds in the game.
Trying to twist things again? This is not a unit sending meteors and such against other worlds, but the full planetary governments looking to make life easier on their troops. This very thing is why the huge armies were taken down with nukes and such. The high and mighty concept of not using them, is great, when you don't have the enemy wiping out everything you care about. You talk assassinations and such, yet wouldn't use a nuke against an incoming ship in space? I really doubt that. Your way of life is ending. You said the populations would rise up against an invader, well here it is. You need to take the world to avoid future attacks on your world. You can't do it in a fight as this is making it sound like. You don't have 3 to 1. You are lucky to have 1 to 1. Superior tactics can only do so much. It seems extreme, but dictators would think nothing of wiping out populations that could stop them from gaining more power. The IS would never have formed beyond the Terran Alliance. They found out that very issue when they tried to keep the planets in their fold. They did not have the numbers of troops to even try. Gee. Maybe reading that again might explain why they got away from the need of such high numbers. The Amaris war should explain the rest.
I would answer the China thing, but that is real world politics.
The whole answer to companies moving assets to make money is the very reason why all worlds don't have everything. You answered it, yet couldn't figure it out yourself? The question to why all worlds didn't have every sort of industry on it? No profit in it.
It isn't realistic to want to destroy someone's ability to destroy your forces easily? Take and hold means a full fledge fight, and that means only one world could ever be your target. That does not allow you to expand thru defending yourself, or even being the aggressor. So the only thing left is to surrender to the first enemy that comes at you. That is realistic. It is the very reason you try and get allies, as you can not go one on one much, much less take on more.
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ghostrider
05/05/20 02:56 AM
66.74.60.165
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Losing information isn't always about the enemy of your nation restricting access to that data. The powerful people wanting to rule would start keeping things like how to make a laser rifle out of the publics hands. Then restrict it to certain people, and eventually make it only available to their own business. Once that gets taken out or a virus destroys the information, then what? The information was removed from the library by YOUR OWN commands. It doesn't happen over night. But it eventually does when dictators come into power. Chaos promotes plenty of dictators. All ready to remove your ability to make war. So no weapons, you lose.
The game Battle Tech was not meant to be an economic nightmare game. It was meant to take stompy robots against your friends and hope by the end of the night, they aren't upset you stomped them of vis versa. If you want to start a full economic set up and such, then go for it. To be honest, you should always be reconing the enemy for an easier way of doing things. But there comes a time when you have to hit or get hit. For some things, you don't have the sit and wait choice.
Maybe you are looking for a game of accountants battling it out for the next promotion. BattleTech isn't it.
They do gloss over things a lot, and the main things that upsets me is them saying this works for us, but not for you.
Massive armies and the 2 percent isn't the same thing. Also, how many countries with the larger armies aren't in debt?
And now comes the nasty part. What is large enough for your lands maybe more then someone elses can afford, or be laughed at as a joke, as that covers only part of their army. Not all worlds are equal. Some were formed from those wanting to be away from the rat race. Others were done on pure profit margins. Neither would do well in the arms race. Pure profit would simply find a new area to exploit, as the cost of doing business in a war doesn't work well for non violent businesses.
Not sure why the clan tech issue is being brought up again. No one is arguing the bs of this scenario. This is the very sort of subject that annoys me. We can do it, but you can't. And if you have the option, then the next wave will have to be something bigger then the last one, as there is only so many super weapons that can be had, and once you can destroy a planet with one, then the threat tends to cease very quickly. Just destroy the worlds that are launching the attacks. The bigger gun concept runs out of the next bigger gun quickly.
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Requiem
05/05/20 07:34 AM
1.158.188.5
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You want larger games that take days to make a single move, that is your choice.
Question, how was the original invasion of Terra fought and how about invading the WoB held Terra?
Key battles – key units.
Plus you can use battleforce for the larger battles if you want ….
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Games may well stay away from dealing with the dirty side of war
What is the point of an AC2 other than as a sniper – plus how else are IS infantry supposed to engage elementals except at a reasonable range with a sniper rifle or a shoulder mounted MRM (Inferno)
Nukes / Chemical weapons are not part of the darker side of war?
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Infantry and armor
They are included in the game – time to get used to their existence – or ask TPTB to create a weapon that killed off Armor and conventional forces (Infantry/armor/VTOL/Fighter – bomber – recon prop engine);
Plus Infantry - time to create your own (House) rules as I did to provide a greater flexibility on the battle-field – more types more movement)
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Now with your 5%, you had better hope you are making a lot, because a few million just isn't going to cut it.
For an earth relative world of 7,000,000,000 people – and remember GDP increases at about 2 -3 % per year (though it can go backwards, but it is extremely rare)
Google – GDP of the world – 2019 – $US 86,598.83 Billion - 5% = $US 4,329.9415 Billion per year Budgeted amount
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Why didn't Defiance create water on a world that was water poor to begin with?
That is not what the Hesperus socio economic table says ….. A-A-A-A-B
And Geography –
has four major continents and innumerable small island chains and archipelagos in its shallow oceans….. thus distillation plants plus long underground pipes …. the northern hemisphere offer tolerable living conditions; particularly at an altitude of 3000 or more meters where the atmospheric pressure is closer to 1 bar (as opposed to 3 bars and more in the jungles) and the ambient temperature is around 30 degrees Celsius
Plus with a population of only 55,000 – Hydroponics + Aquaculture + Chicken yards + Northern hemisphere for larger animals.
Self sufficiency is readily achievable….
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I don't know even a tenth of the worlds in the game.
This is why I respect Sarna – good source of information on every world. Thus when writing a game research the planets in the area – and make up those that are hidden within / lost to time in the old Terran Hegemony when you use your unit as an archeology unit for lost / dead worlds that no one has created yet.
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Nukes
And how many have the Jihad era?
You only use them when there is no other way forward – ie. the response to Turtle Bay – if the IS has warships nukes are not required but without them they are the weapon of last resort ….
If you want to use them and go against the rules of war then that is your choice.
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No profit in it.
Yes , small populations with a low socio economic rated world – all others would have access to a level of technological development. So research these periphery regional worlds and see which should be abandoned for more profitable worlds.
If worlds become too inhospitable they should be abandoned.
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Take and hold means a full fledge fight, and that means only one world could ever be your target.
Quite the opposite – what it means is that research will have to be undertaken to find targets that can be taken given the forces available.
It would go a long way to explaining why border movement been next to nil over the past 2 centuries of war?
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Lot Information
Seen any lost information within the local University Library? All I have seen is extensions after extensions … together with massive databases as to good web sites in providing massive information ….
How many true dictators have there been in the IS?
Sorry, but all there needs to be is one library and you can repopulate all the other libraries in ten years – and how many universities are there throughout the IS – tens of thousands is a very realistic figure and then there a re the public libries in any decent city so now we have libraries in the hundreds of thousands. Then on top of that any decent company would have their own library based upon their specific purpose …. Engineering, business, law etc.
So getting rid of all the knowledge – on all the worlds – good luck with that!
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The game Battle Tech was not meant to be an economic nightmare game. It was meant to take stompy robots against your friends and hope by the end of the night, they aren't upset you stomped them of vis versa.
And after 35 years with how many books – what is it now?
When the game does not make sense it must be fixed – and given the amount of pot holes evident within the game someone needs to point them out and see if they can be fixed.
Plus isn’t it the desire of every gamer to make the game more in their image?
Plus researching every world in your game and customizing them – based upon population, socio-economic conditions, history, religion etc. military wise is half the fun.
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Not sure why the clan tech issue is being brought up again.
1. To make the invasion a little more realistic;
2. To make the battles more realistic - given time it would become necessary to bring more clans into the war – expand the war into new areas to explore (as I have provided);
3. To create more IS Omni etc.;
4. Allow the IS to evolve over time
5. Crete more and diverse gaming strategies to fight against the invasion
6. Etc etc.
What I have created is a far more diverse and rich gaming scenario than that of the Canon game …. with far more areas of opportunity for game exploration ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/05/20 12:30 PM
66.74.60.165
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The AC 2 isn't so much a sniper, as it rarely kills a unit with one shot, but more of the longest range weapon that mobile units could use for a while. A Gauss Rifle is more of one, as it does have a high ability to kill with a single shot. No head can withstand the slug and live. For the normal Gauss rifle. The light and heavy change this.
A sniper weapon is used from the shadows to kill people. Then the sniper moves in stealth to get away or set up for more shots. They are normally not detected.
WMDs are part of a darker side, but it is a general engagement thing. Not that they are good, but it isn't stalking a single or even multiple targets for removal. And with this, having to kill innocent folks that get in the way, just because, tends to put a lot of people off.
The whole concept of WMDs and snipers supports the saying of kill a single person you are a murderer. Kill 10,000 and you are a conquerer.
Your conclusions are off again. Infantry and armor has always been used in the game. You can play any unit, including civilian air if you wanted to. The game focuses on the mechs, but as most players started doing, they may combat teams. CCTs are probably the largest unit you are doing to do, as the play time is what tends to prevent more. Battleforce tried to help speed that up. I want to say some of the adventure packs had pure infantry or armor battles you can play. So they are not totally ignored, just not in the spot light. As it should be, the game focuses on what the majority of the players want. And a majority is just slightly over half.
For all that of trying to put up water purifiers, they all need to be guarded. Otherwise, then enemy just needs to sabotage them to force the world to have to suffer. Something like this is why the argument of needing to guard everything was done. For the company that has multiple dropships coming in, the cost of import may well be cheaper then having their own water purifiers. Doubtful, but possible.
Might want to rethink the rules of war. Kill or be killed. Those that are dead, and those that are still surviving. The law of nature. Man has tried to limit things to the 'conventional' weapons, but in the end, when it is you or them, you sort to what ever you can. Traps comes to mind. They don't really care WHO is there, just that they do their job. And for some rulers a single nuke on your concentrated forces base is acceptable. Might even cause the populace to avoid angering you, as you are just as likely to stomp them out.
Morally correct? No.
Oddly enough, the use of nukes doesn't seem to have the stigma in games as biological or chemical weapons.
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ghostrider
05/05/20 12:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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I wasn't talking periphery worlds when saying the profit margin would prevent all worlds from having things like mech plants. Ship yards are even more expensive and unnecessary in every system.
The reason why the Terran Hegemony had so many could be resolved by profit driven thoughts. As the IS grew, so did the distances needed to be traveled. Now being the 'closest' to the customer would have advantages of being the one most would stop at, as traveling deeper into the Hegemony would be taxing.
This may well have even started with the Terran alliance, as they needed ship repairs closest to the border worlds so they could respond quicker.
Inhospitable. Interesting term. If you can't live there without equipment, then it should be just that. Most of the worse offenders were colonized for materials. Also, why terraform a world? They are generally inhospitable, so besides needing the minerals, why even bother? Domes work well for keeping people 'safe' while working there. Also goes to reason why some worlds In the IS were not abandoned after being nuked. Well besides having listening posts on them. Yet they still keep going. Part of why there are so many targets that have to be guarded.
The reason why the borders were pretty stagnant was because of the forces required to take and hold worlds. You take 3 worlds, and lose a few in return. This very seesaw in the game just doesn't show the issues with population control or massive movement of infantry. It deals with mechs. Well mechs can't really take or hold cities. But very few people want to play a guard in the middle of a hostile city, trying to keep peace. So it is very understandable that the game isn't focused on it. Now with the change of infantry from the original introduction of them changes the outcome of battles that were not retconned, as they would destroy the game as it stands. More then a few worlds would have needed more forces, as well as losing more to take them. Mechs that is.
Not sure how many libraries has a book that tells you how to build a nuke. In fact, I want to say they are banned. Same with how to do the same with other types of weapons, such as a stinger missile or chemical/bio weapons. The formula for the CHOAM armor is another that would be missing from libraries. At least public ones. Though I guess library is easier then information depositories.
What game that has the earth being invaded by aliens that have destroyed more advanced empires, and can't wipe out the defenders of Earth make sense? How does an invader with energy shields that can not be penetrated by physical means, get stopped by normal slug throwers make sense. Same thing with fighter sized craft having weapon systems that are better then full battleships?
After 35 years, the game is still about stomping on each other with mechs. Economics is back ground to most, as they just like to play. For those that want more depth, then yes. It is lacking on information. But to make money, you focus on what the majority wants. No matter how you want to say otherwise, that majority seems to not care at all about economics of the game, as they want to stomp on each other, and more then a few don't care about if they have repair parts, much less if they can even get them. Magic has the unit up and running for the next battle.
So bagging on the game developers isn't doing what you think it is.
It would be nice to see the developers say something like their scope in the 80's was off, and that they will be upgrading some of the support ideas to really fit the scope of the IS, but that isn't likely to happen.
I just want the rules fixed so they are consistent, and not the we can do this, but you can't concept.
The destruction of the FC, and now the FS puts those that like the state into a frenzy, yet they now have to deal with it being like the CC. On the defensive. For those that love the DC, it is something that allows them to feel they are finally making headway.
The whole ordeal with it is shrouded in bs, but oh well. I get to take my mech and stomp some enemies.
Basic and devoid of a few things? Very much so.
If you run a merc unit with the economy, then yes. More information can be used. But how many really use it the way it is put out? Roll the dice to see if your part is in stock? How much for it? You have another battle coming up, and need the reactor fixed, yet the dice said no. So do you change that result so you aren't fighting with the engine hit?
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Requiem
05/05/20 07:24 PM
1.158.188.5
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So large scale games can be established – it is just a question of organizing them into multiple smaller scale battles and applying the win / loss – damage to the next game if necessary – having many people fight many / many games to determine an overall winner ….
ALL WMDs should be banned!
Everyone should be allowed to play the game in such a manner as they desire – however when reading all the novels etc regarding the Clan Invasion all you get (for the majority) is Mech on Mech – this is a complete load of BS – have a look at Twycross as an example two RCTs + Merc and all you read about is a couple of APCs and a couple of squads of engineers laying explosives in a cliff wall to close the Gash.
Twycross has a population in the vicinity of 1,000,000,000 and a socio economic level of B
Where are all the armour / artillery / aerospace of the RCTs – where are the Twycross Military units armour / Infantry / fighter / bomber etc?
In reading this doesn’t it read completely off kilter as to what should have been on the world and what should have been used against them?
This is the problem with the majority (near all) of the Clans battles – they read as Mech on Mech only and they forget all conventional forces that should be available. Thus the Clans should have lost many more battles than the few that were written about – their complete lack of support vehicles alone restricts their Mechs Movement with regards to resupply and medical assistance – why was this never discussed and was completely ignored?
Why was every world’s own military just ignored? This is the point isn’t it – the entire history of the Clan invasion onwards reads as if the only forces anyone has are limited to just a few House units only and no world has any significant military, even Capitol worlds, where they have populations in the billions and have a socio economic rating of A. Sorry but I cannot accept this it just does not come across with any validity. This is why I cannot believe in the history as given from 3039 onwards – and this is why it all needs a re-write in my opinion – and this is why I am re-writing to something I can consider more believable.
Hesperus – no comment that they can become self sufficient with regards to food / water production and storage given that the population is very small? Also did you notice that Hesperus is also run like a deep sea oil rig / mine in the middle of nowhere – that is the employees fly in fly out no one actually lives on the planet (or if they do it must be a very small number) – as even with a small natural population increase over 200+ years you should see the population being more than that of a small country town!
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After 35 years, the game is still about stomping on each other with mechs. Economics is back ground to most, as they just like to play. For those that want more depth, then yes. It is lacking on information.
Thus producing a product that lacks all depth to it and has become a boring / unbelievable read – thus creating a product that people do not want – consumers want a more sophisticated read than that of the 80’s books – look at star wars, warhammer, D&D they are all written with incredible depth where as Battletech reads as though something is lacking from all the settings – they need more depth, they need more descriptive comments and the stories need to be taken from many points of view the average read ants more – and yet the novels basic structure has not changed – I now find the novels hard to read, they need a complete overall if they are ever going to create a new one – they need more pages with more substance and being a little more believable. A more robust and sophisticated product = more sales and more new players.
Sorry to say but I am not a fan of the new history 3150 era – I just find it completely improbable – Caleb as the ruler of the FS and no one picks up his mental issues?
The DC punch through on such a limited front from their border all the way to New Avalon and they can hold it together with no logistics problems?
The idea that the Clans can establish such massive empires within the IS when their original populations are so ridiculously small – and they say the people of the IS adopt this way of life?
Sorry but I find the entire premise of the new stories to having lost the plot …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/05/20 11:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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WMD were 'banned', yet are still used to create more conflict and get the players motivated to destroy those that use them.
Again. The assumption or maybe lack of believing the story as written as well as the available resources to the IS seems to be what is causing the lack of understanding. RCT's do not always have their aerowings with them. They are sent to deal with other systems, and in this case, might well be protecting the orbiting dropships from clan forces.
The story also says infantry and armor were not used as the storms and such nerfed them beyond being usable. This is on top of the need to fast retreat if they started to lose.
Do you understand greater numbers across a world, verse a compact unit hitting those scattered forces? The winning isn't so much the issue, but the short amount of time to do so. They had to deal with rebels, but it was put to the garrison units to deal with. Not the front line. And with this, when the government of the world says they surrender, that means the military surrenders to. There is very rarely a time when the military says no, and fights on.
Hesperus would not have been considered if not for the SL military making the manufacturing base there. It would have been overlooked as a poor choice for profit. So the whole thing boils down to someone in the SL command structure got a wild hair, and convinced the League to build there.
The game is about mech on mech. The fact the main line hated to deal with vehicles being about the only real time you hear them engage armor. It is set up to suggest the mech is the top line unit, and all the rest don't do much but give mech warriors target practice. The only thing mechs really have on armor is movement and the ability to keep functioning when it loses most internals on anything but the CT and head. Vehicles die when anything but the turret is reduced to no crits. So 4 or 5 locations on an armored unit, verses 8 on a mech, means vehicles will get killed faster.
Playing the game tells you the truth on this as well as the assault mech isn't the best unit to play a lot of the time. Medium jumpers with ranged energy weapons tends to be that. Yet all the stories suggest that mediums don't live against the heavy and assault mechs long.
This is why I think the developers wanted a stand and fight sort of game. I was told it wasn't, but their own fluff suggests otherwise.
The introduction of the RPG and a few other things was supposed to add more depth, but it wasn't supported the way it needed to. That I will say was a fault on the developers. Not sure if it was a lack of funds to get someone to do that, the lawsuit, or just plain didn't believe it would do well. It could well be something else, but the fact is, it was not supported to add in that extra flavor.
But then the original game is a board game. Why not complain risk isn't factual or have a great depth to it? Axis and Allies is the same way. You roll dice to see who dies. No tactics involved. No playing the fights to determine it. So why is BattleTech the whipping child of these rants?
Now the lost plot line has me wondering why you continue to play the game? If it is that screwed up, then stop dealing with it.
Or get away from canon completely with the alt.
But yet, the fact you haven't, tells me you don't want to work on making it right. Just run the canon version with your vision.
That is fine for the alt, but it doesn't fix the issues. It just changes them into something else. You can not fix the canon history and continue to use it as a basis. It does not work out the same when run from before the succession wars started, and even 3025 would change it all by 3050.
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Requiem
05/06/20 02:20 AM
1.158.188.5
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The Second battle of Twycross
Within the Novel …
the entire 9th FedCom RCT was within the storm – that means that over a third of your fighting force is not available;
The entire 10th Lyran Guards Amour / Infantry / Aerospace is MIA - except for one lance of armour and a couple of squads of sapper engineers and in addition one regiment of the 10th is also MIA;
The entire Twycross military that should exist, does not exist, and so is also MIA;
Victor is supposed to be a great general – yet what we have here is completely ludicrous ….. this is just piecemeal addition to what should have been overwhelming force he only jus won with the forces available and yet the Clan forces outside of the gash were able to escape!
Ther should have been no Clan forces that escapade they could all have been caught or killed ….
And how many times do we see this throughout the entire invasion when you look at the TO&E of the IS forces?
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when the government of the world says they surrender, that means the military surrenders to…
Only if the CO is off his rocker! If the force is still viable and they believe they can inflict more damage than they will receive – they will continue fighting ….. even if they have to scatter and form independent raiding units.
Remember the average Garrison size is Nova, Supernova to Trinary and vary rarely a Cluster
So even a single regiment should be able to take on and inflict severe damage to small a clan garrison force.
This just goes to show that there are massive problems within the game – what about the sibko numbers for reinforcements?
This is just so beyond a bad joke.
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The game is about mech on mech.
Whatever happened to the war simulation – infantry / armor / aerospace / VTOL? It is more than just Mech on mech – it is a strategy game! If it was supposed to be mech on mech then there should be no reference to armor / infantry etc within the game as they have been made obsolete.
By addressing these issues hopefully you can make the game a more fun setting where you will want to have conventional forces and not just limit your choices to just the big stompy Mechs
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/06/20 12:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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Reread the statement. The second battle of Twycross. You know the one where the clans have controlled it for a short while. The FC is invading it to take it back. Why would there be any Twycross militia in existence? Not sure how that point is being missed not once, but twice.
Sounds like understanding of war and military forces isn't a strong point. A military commander will not decide to keep fighting a war, if the governor says to stop. Not unless they are going to perform a military coup. Defend the people, but obey the leader. Fight to the death and you can't set up a resistance or help when a counter invasion comes.
The so called push for logic is failing in this.
To ignore orders from the ruler, means you are violating your job orders. Stand and die is normally not one that will be tolerated, especially after the commander in chief says it's over.
Remember. Not everyone knew the exact location of the enemy forces at all times. Unlike you, they did not read a book telling them who, what, and when was where in the world or even IS. End results do not modify what they know when the battle was occurring. But his point seems to elude understanding.
Not sure why the concept of the game premise is so hard to comprehend, but mech on mech, can still include the other elements, it is just the focus is mech battles. Most of the players are not interested in taking out a lance of tanks to duke it out. Combined arms is desired by those with a strong basis on trying to do it all. Something a mech can't do. But they come the closest.
There is nothing stopping you from doing your own combat teams. The main back ground story of the game is mech on mech.
Much like your beloved Gundam Wing. It isn't about the little infantry trying to stop a war. It is about the Gundams. Or Star Wars. The story focuses on the Skywalkers. Yet there are battles all over the galaxy, but they aren't the focus, so are back ground noise.
And for Star Wars, the story was supposed to be the rise, fall and redemption of Skywalker.
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