Requiem
02/18/20 05:19 PM
1.158.235.15
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The IS fighting over part of a planet. Doesn't this go completely counter to the demand that the IS would not leave any of their civilians in the hands of the clans?
What would happen in a future invasion if your forces already have multiple beachheads upon multiple worlds?
Utilizing the Clan own flaws against them won on Wolcott.
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They would do a full annihilation of the clans in the IS?
Three Initial Possibilities:-
• Eject from the Inner-sphere;
• Absorption into the new Star League or Trial of Absorption becoming part of a House Unit; or
• Full annihilation of the IS Clan Force.
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And how to you supply it?
We learn – word play semantics when it comes to the “prize” is not only the purview of the Clans. No sneaking they are now bound by their oath to allow access.
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The entire unit(cluster) is not always in the same place.
As stated –
A set piece of Geographical Area is assigned to each Galaxy
Front line Units accept all of the Trial of ….. Requests for all Primary Objectives that area and undergo bidding for that particular Trial. <Within Clan Space or the IS – Front Line Units will Always advance the objectives of their clan in battle – by taking and defending what their clan wants and what it owns>
Within Clan Space - As per the rules both sides then ensure the battle is within the pre-arranged “Circle” to battle for the prize.
Within the IS – These battles are now Planet wide and are no longer just one battle – the front line forces must now contend themselves with the IS way of fighting.
Second Tier units are there are their true garrison forces, who are used to hold ground taken by front-line units or to attack / defend secondary objectives.
<Within Clan space – why do you even need a dedicated Garrison force, as all trials are strictly regulated, except against the Bandit Caste – and a force to attack / defend secondary targets means that minor Trials for minor goals are assigned to these units by their commanders – Win Trials for their Merchant Caste?>
< Within the IS – Garrison forces, who are used to hold ground taken by front-line units or to attack / defend secondary objectives.>
PGCs are there just to clean up after front and second line units and hold even less important targets.
<Within Clan Space – After battlefield clean up duties, as well as all the dirty jobs no one else will do – their Garrison posts would be akin to being “sent to Siberia” far away and in the most desolate of locations that really hold no strategic importance whatsoever. But close enough that they can Clean up a circle of equals after the battle has finished.>
<Within in the IS – First it takes six months for these units to travel to the IS so even if they left Clan space during the second wave (May) they should not have arrived until November, 3050 and not during the fourth wave (ending in October) …. The arrival of any PGC can only occur late October onwards – Plus given their extremely small size they really should not be all that much of any real assistance in garrisoning IS worlds. They would therefore only be assigned to worlds of little to no importance to the overall Clan Objectives – due to a lack of available resources or strategic value..>
Note. After re-reading the Clan uses for their three tear military system – how they are armed and how they are treated – it is Clear that the Free-born PGS are ripe for a psy-ops action during the Clan Invasion. Operational Objectives – turn these units against the Clans that treat them so poorly and get them to work for an IS great House as a front line Unit (when they defect provide them with advanced IS ‘Mechs etc) …. Is it so hard to believe that they wouldn’t defect considering how they are treated on the Clan Home Worlds?
As for Galaxy sub-units not being in the same place - this is to be expected within Clan Space …. As long as one Galaxie’s Cluster remains within its garrisoned geographical (Within the Clan’s overall Holdings) area to respond to other Clan’s Front Line Units request for a Trial, the other Clusters within the Galaxy can be sent out to initiate Trials upon other Clan Holdings as much as they want. Thus we have the true sanitized Clan version of War in all its limitations!
And as stated – the rules state you do not have to garrison everything within a single area – you only need one Front Line garrison within one geographical area that will accept all Trial requests from other Clans.
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The PGC's have warriors that their performance isn't up to par, yet not bad enough to force retirement.
When you consider their primary duty on the Clan Home Worlds is to clean up the circle of equals after it has been used this not all that surprising. And within the IS Garrisoned on the back of beyond and fighting whole against whole worlds populations this is not really that surprising – they are given the jobs no one else will do as they are never that important.
Plus their overall size is not that great – so scattering them over many worlds is practically useless. – as shown above!
Plus I find it interesting the questions asked were never answered ….
How would a Clan warrior react going from a highly sanitized battle environment (that has many rules to minimize the losses of MechWarriors and eliminating collateral damage and danger to non-combatants to that of the IS way of fighting which is basked upon killing as many of enemies as possible and inflicting as much damage as you can.
You would think their would be a massive period of adjustment for their Front-Line and Second Tier Warriors.
And then the idea they are engaged in Partisan wars would also be highly frustrating – assigning PGCs to these battles would be the Clans idea of a solution – and yet given their limited numbers their overall effectiveness would be limited.
Something is missing in the Canon story here!
Alt Suggestion – with the introduction of PGS into the Invasion Corridor (Commencing late October – early November 3050)
As shown above the Clan’s PGC are extremely limited in size.
The number of worlds that are engaged in Partisan activities – all of them.
Policy to stop Partisan Activity – varies from Clan to Clan …. (examples could be ….. Germany in Russia, Italy and Paris Vs. Vietnam Resistance?)
• Set an example by demonstrating what will happen when partisan activity occurs;
• Enter into negotiation with the IS population;
• Send in the investigative arm – backed up with military support etc.
• Put a Fire base out in the open as a tethered goat and see who bites …… etc.
Consider the size of your PGC units within the Is as well as each clans PGCs that are available
• Trinary is too small for the majority ….
• A Cluster (three Trinaries) may even not be enough considering the hardware some resistance units may have access too (Former Reserve units with access to armor / VTOL / Advanced Infantry and Explosives – highly trained and organized to the complete opposite small partisan groups with no real training)
Consider the IS response …. With Black Box tech each world can coordinate ….
• Access to outside assistance and supply drops
• Insertion of commando teams – training to small garrison elimination;
• Insertion of Mech units;
• Insertion of psy-ops – desertions / kidnapping / exacerbating conflict between the people and the Clans etc.;
• Psy-Ops – getting an entire PGC to defect!;
• Capturing Clan Tech;
• Information reconnaissance;
There are many behind the lines scenarios that are available for IS Front Line Units / Mercenary Units that can be applied here when it comes to reinforcing captured worlds partisans.
Thus new units for the Games –
• Partisan force fighting the Clan occupiers;
• Small PGCs units fighting Partisans;
• Small IS units sent into the Clans rear with multiple objectives;
• Small PGCs who have defected from the Clans and Now work for the IS – Mercenary or Front Line;
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/18/20 06:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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Depending on the stated prized of a batchall, there is no guarantee of access. Theodore bid for Wolcott, but not the space around it. Maybe checking out the Black Thorns might give you that information. The ISF liason was pissed that Rose would not change course with his drop ship to intercept some fighters after a couple of outbound dropships. Much like the Falcon deal with the invasion of Coventry. They did not want to exchange worlds because it was an inconvenience to the IS to supply those worlds.
You are starting to get a picture of garrison duty, now spread them out even further, such as different planets and moons in the system to other systems. Garrisons are there to guard people. property, research, and other things. Not just from the enemy combat units, but saboteurs and such. In the home worlds, this isn't such a problem. But that doesn't mean they don't do it.
The ragged positioning of assets comes from not only having to put things where the resources are, like an iron mine having to be on an iron deposit, to guarding things taken in combat, or traded with other clans. The Snow Ravens getting the Ghost Bears lands for building their population moving fleets comes to mind.
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Requiem
02/19/20 01:34 AM
1.158.235.15
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Depending on the stated prized of a batchall, there is no guarantee of access.
And if it is included in the “prize”?
Coventry – would have become an nightmare for ‘Clan’ Logistics – it was only to sharpen the claws of their fledglings …
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Clan – Garrison Forces
Good descriptors of the Clans is that of being anal-retentive … and segregating everything into groups …
Garrison Posts
Primary Units for primary Worlds;
Secondary Units for secondary worlds;
PGCs those worlds that really do not matter as well as the job no one else wants of running to ground any partisan force that can be identified – and yet the clans have no real idea what they are doing when it comes to fighting partisans except for being the sledge hammer on the egg … They completely lack an investigative police force who can work out who is in the resistance as well as most of the nastier tricks they will use …
Thus in the beginning you can expect the PGCs running around many a field, and not catching anything …except for becoming target practice when they fall into an ambush.
When fighting partisans the military alone are completely ill-suited – detectives and infiltration spies are required.
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In the home worlds, this isn't such a problem. But that doesn't mean they don't do it.
Incredibly rare! – to the point of being nonexistent.
Alt Suggestion
I am going to establish for my game a new unit a Jade Falcon PGC.
We meet our PGC fresh from the Clan Home worlds where they were required to fix another circle of equals after a Mech Battle (Trial of Possession), which is causing anxiety within our trinary. They have now been assigned to a plannet to hunt down the local partisan group – after a period of time they are still not having much luck.
However, the F-C psy-ops spy has been able to get close to the commander of the unit – and supply him with “books”.
However it wasn’t all the specialized psy-ops information that was able to change his mind. It was an accidental inclusion into the information provided for him – someone accidentally put in a copy of the ancient copy of the film “Spartacus” – which provided the jolt.
Shortly thereafter his forces raided the Second Tier Unit close by – steeling their Mechs and people – they then stole a Dropship and were able to “convince” the passing Logistics Jumpship to take them into the IS.
Since then this former Falcon PGC has been employed by the F-C as a mercenary unit – designated as Gladiator.
And commanded by the newly named “Spartacus”. Their remit is to provide assistance to defecting Clan personnel.
<Note: Where the Clans Have Bloodnames this unit has Freedom Names ie Spartacus, Che Guevara, Castro, Guy Fawkes … etc.>.
<…. Initially creating an underground railroad for the fleeing Free-born ….>
< …. However, and after time …. another PGC joins …. and even more time how about half or even all the Falcon PGCs , all 225 Mechs and 20 aerospace fighters! - and before they leave they each raid second tier units … plus they purchase front line IS mechs (with the supplies they were able to “acquire” ….. and this time they are going to liberate Falcon unit’s support Caste Freeborn personnel …. And just like Rome they will now have to send a Front Line Unit after them less this get out of hand.>
Thoughts on my Spartacus Campaign within the IS invasion corridor?
Should my little revolution spread into any of the Other Clan’s PGC as well as Free-born Desert en-mass from a Tyrannical society to that of the IS and freedom ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/19/20 12:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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Issues that needs to be addressed.
What type of dropship do the steal? This is important because it is unlikely they will be able to buy any more in the IS. They may have to rent some for moving the unit beyond the first dropship.
I would suggest something to cover why the rest of the unit follows the commander when he breaks. Would think they seen the movie as well, but different reactions for different people. Does the commander expose himself trying to convince the others to follow him? Or do they just follow?
Might want the 'bloodnames' to be nicknames instead. The insult to the trueborns might cause them to target the unit to remove that stain. Additional thought came up with typing this. It may be a good way to get those sent after the unit to switch sides. The Falcons would send the bottom of the heap units to do so at first (with or with blood names in unit).
I would assume the unit starts inside the Falcon occupation zone, or the merchant caste has decided to resist the Falcon Khans. If not, then the question is, would there be room on an outbound jumpship from the clan home worlds?
It would also raise the question of alerting any along the supply route to the IS as well.
Another suggestion is that the other PGC personnel that 'join' might keep in position in the Touman, so they can help move those seeking refuge in the IS. The inside guys so to speak.
The biggest issue initially would be moving the people. Jumpships and dropships. Stealing them might work for the first strike or two, but after that, it becomes unlikely to be successful.
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Requiem
02/19/20 04:04 PM
1.158.235.15
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What type of dropship do the steal?
Overlord-C (Renamed – Dawn Breaker)
1,000 tons (?) of various clan weapons, consumables etc + 20 Mechs (15X 11C and Second Line BattleMechs and 5 Omni + 5 Elemental Suits)
Odyssey Class Jump-ship (Renamed – Vesuvius)
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why the rest of the unit follows the commander when he breaks.
The entire unit hates (with passion) how they are used by the Falcons – Clearer of battlefields, the grunt work no one else will do – treated very poorly;
The commander is a natural born leader, highly charismatic;
The IS way of life as a mercenary allows the unit to finally be “true” warriors; and
Revenge upon their former “Masters” – Clan Jade Falcon.
They all follow him … doesn’t take much to convince them after all the years they have been treated …
And yes they all watch “Spartacus” …..
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Might want the 'bloodnames' to be nicknames instead.
Free-Names – and no they will not be nicknames – they will be the equivalent of Clan Blood-names – the first 15 who stood with Spartacus during their “Servile War.” <Nt. New names will be added as the unit increases in strength>
Spartacus, Crixis, Castus, Lucretia, Naevia
Che Guevara, Castro, Zapata, Wake, Garrud
(Guy) Fawkes, Rani, (Qiu) Jin, (Joan) Arc, Neri
And yes they will be targeted from word one ….
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I would assume the unit starts inside the Falcon occupation zone
Yes, from there they take possession of an old merchant Caste dropship delivering logistical supplies.
I agree the first unit they could send after them would be another PGC who switches sides.
They also escape Clan Space with their psy-ops “liaison”
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Alerting the supply route
First, the jump-ship would be listed as Overdue;
As time moved on the Clans would get more concerned;
However once the Jade Falcon Khan leans of the PGC perfidy they will begin an active hunt for the missing ship and the deserters.
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Within the IS
With the assistance of their psy-ops liaison they are debriefed;
Sell a percentage of their Cargo – start up cash;
Provided with a Contract and assigned to a commando unit who operates behind the lines – they are then sent to Camelot Command within the Dark Nebula (Base of Operations)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/19/20 08:03 PM
1.158.235.15
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What the ……..?
Approx. September 3050 - Camelot Command Rediscovered – First Somerset Strikers;
3051 - Camelot Command Rediscovered (for a second time) – Snord’s Irregulars: during Operation Merlin;
Some time thereafter - Command was subsequently refurbished by the Federated Commonwealth and used as a base for forward operations against the Clans.
And then was abandoned due to logistical problems ….
I hereby cry Foul ….
I know the militaries decisions can sometimes be…..”strange”, but ….. Why would you wait over a year once you have been notified as to the existence of Camelot Command before you decide to garrison it …. Camelot command is “ a Star League naval base”!
This is completely beyond the pail ….
Also now that is behind enemy lines this bases importance increases exponentially ……
Put in a couple of flights of aerospace fighters for security plus a complement of nuclear missiles in case the Clan Navy show up as well as complement of Naval Marines and Mechs – then rig the entire place to blow using some of the nuclear warheads – just in case the Clans do decide to conquer the facility in the future and all done ….<so the idea that the F-C just abandons it because the logistics is too difficult can-not be considered realistic.>
All required Logistics will be via non-standard jump points <as per War of 3039>
Sorry but I cannot in any good conscious consider the canon story to be acceptable ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/20/20 02:46 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue with Camelot Command is why most don't put any weight with the Strikers cartoon. TPTB retconned it in after the cartoon and did like they normally do. Not actually research the history for facts.
I would try to say that the canonverse is lacking in resources, but we've been down that road.
But with that information, I guess the Falcons had a warship base outside of the clans home worlds.
Snord's Irregulars adventure pack has a few scenarios dealing with Camelot Command and their battle to keep it from the Falcons.
I agree that this one is a major screw up. But without warships on the IS part, I don't think they could do much with the base. Canon here, not alt. The FC would have lost it to just having the Falcon warships around it, taking out any dropships that isn't Falcon. I agree if they couldn't hold it, destroying it would have been done.
Now for more stupidity upon this. Why didn't the Falcons use the base? There isn't much reference to it after abandoning it. Unless it was a big part of the Falcons ripping up the LA. Just a resupply base would go far in that case. You don't even need warship repairs, though I don't remember if they could build one at the docks. I don't remember seeing it one way or the other.
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Requiem
02/20/20 06:42 AM
1.158.235.15
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The issue with Camelot Command is why most don't put any weight with the Strikers cartoon. TPTB retconned it in after the cartoon and did like they normally do. Not actually research the history for facts.
So, pick and choose what is canon and what is not?
They were not there at Camelot Command ….? And yet not? ….
And yet Adam Steiner went on to become Archon?
Really, ….. logic is ……..?
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I don't think they could do much with the base.
Really?, I came up with …
A forward base (Hub) for my Fenrir Forces, my S.O.E. Forces and more recently my PGC force that went rogue and is now a mercenary unit….. In addition to that I turned it into a “Babylon 5” Variant – with pirate refugees fleeing the Clan advance ….
What this is - Wolcott in the F-C space.
It’s location alone make it strategically valuable! …. and in the future I will return it to its correct function as a naval base ….
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Snord's Irregulars adventure pack has a few scenarios dealing with Camelot Command and their battle to keep it from the Falcons.
And yet in all reality it should have been operational if 1st Somerset Strikers is to believed.
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Why didn't the Falcons use the base?
They forgot that it was even there? – They did not want it for their fleet even though it was a SLDF relic (to which the Clans applied an almost religious zealotry to during the invasion)? – The IS forces left and not telling anyone – the Falcons though the tenants were still there and when they next came for a tenants inspection they found another Clan squatting, and claiming squatters rights to the SLDF facility?
Again another monumental s______ up.
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Purpose – Camelot Command
First let us consider its location – it is hidden within a Dark Nebula
Then let us consider what is guarding it – multiple drones with naval grade weapons.
What this says to me is this facility is a highly important – and due to its importance it must be kept secret and secured from enemy forces ….. so if you are going to build a station like this, with this level of security protecting it, wouldn’t you ensure at the bare minimum a facility like this can act as …
Primary – CIC for the SLDF Fleet within that area of space;
Secondary - Resupply of SLDF Naval Ships; and
Tertiary – Dry Dock – repair and refit.
Plus there must be something about this facility that makes it unique (due to its location and security) – Shadow SLDF Naval facility that used to spy on the realm closest to it – As the closest realm would have been the former RWR.
My bet is this facility was originally SLDF Navy CIC for their Bug-Eye Jump-ship Fleet for this area (TRO 2750 Page 124) – Before they ‘nerfed’ them that is …..
Otherwise why build a facility like this, in a location like this, and with the added security it has?
It would have been interesting if Adam Steiner found a Bug-Eye (or two) …. And they were then used during the Clan Invasion and onwards …..
Also, if this was an intelligence facility what information could the computer banks hold as to the RWR? Especially during the Amaris Coup … and the Lyran’s subsequent invasion prior to the Exodus …. What information / secrets could this facility hold as to the hidden Amaris / RWR facilities (The Mech plant hidden in the deep periphery and at the bottom of the sea…. (If I remember correctly) as well as others).
This facility should have been a treasure trove of information as well as an invaluable base for the future of the Lyran people.
This facility could have been so much more if it had just been given the chance!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/20/20 01:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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The cartoon is like the video games. They were put out for visual entertainment, yet got popular enough to include it into canon. A few of the game mechanics don't work in the video games. It also shows a lot of issues with the turn based game as well.
Coming up with things you can do to the base is not the same as what you actually can do. The alt has little in common with canon, with the exception of being loosely based on it. The FC did not have warships to guard it, nor did they really have the technical support needed to really bring it up. The position in space was another huge issue, as you only get lucky so many times with the sneak runs.
Not sure where it said there were drones that could guard the base, but the naval weapons would have made it a bit difficult to assault. But then the clans had the warships and could make runs against it, knocking out those very weapons. At this point, the IS didn't seem able to make most of them, so any lose would mean not being able to repair them.
Not sure what tenants you are talking about with the Falcons not using the base, unless Adam made a challenge for it. If there was, the question of a time limit comes to mind. If TPTB really want to make the cartoon canon, then the FC would have been trying to use it, and when Snord finds it, the Dark Wing forces would be in violation of such an agreement.
But ignoring the cartoon, as most do, the Dark Wing unit's jumpships jumped out after the Snort battles to report it to Falcon high command. There is absolutely no way the Falcons would not have sent another force to investigate it or keep the IS from making it operational. They would have challenged for it as soon as they could. With it not being worked on, that would mean they would have it in the near future.
But again. Someone didn't do their research when they were working on the Falcon/FC war.
I would think MAYBE, not guaranteed, that this might have fallen during ownership change, or possible lawsuit issues.
Where the use of it isn't disputed, it is not so easy to just say you can defend it. As with Wolcott, supplying it is a major issue. This is especially true when you talk about how far you have to go thru enemy territory to get to it.
But with this, the location may be unique only in the fact that the RWR didn't know about it, so being a CIC and logistics base could well be all the significance to it is. Though that is canon. Others could expand on it. The Intel station does make a lot of sense. Hide production of the Bugeyes and others.
Now here is another flaw with the information on the base. We are talking Snord. They would have done all within their power to get the information stored there. So that should not have been lost.
This is just another huge discovery that they did not really want in the game, so just killed it off with ignoring it, with garbage logic. It would have provided the Falcons with a huge advantage.
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Requiem
02/20/20 07:29 PM
1.158.235.15
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The FC did not have warships to guard it, nor did they really have the technical support needed to really bring it up.
Wouldn’t you assume that any space station built for Naval Warship’s “Resupply and Dry docking (Repair and Refit)” purposes would have security in the form of aerospace fighters at the bare minimum?
Also wouldn’t you also expect that a station of this importance would have its own naval grade weapons, built into the base, to defend itself against warships?
Drones –
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Camelot_Command
“ it also maintained a screen of several dozen (at least) autonomous Mark 39 Attack Drones to destroy or drive away intruders.”
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They would have challenged for it as soon as they could
Agree – for the first time a Trial of Possession utilizing only aerospace fighters?, as there is no way you would allow the Falcons to get that close to land ground troops.
As for security - What about external Drop-ship Fighter Carriers running picket?
However, considering the Clans zealot nature towards SL artifacts – what would happen If the Falcons were told of the existence of a dead man switch - “in the event the base looks like it is going to fall they (the F-C forces) would detonate the core of the Facility – destroying it outright” – would they then back off to preserve the facility?
Wolcott – maybe what was written was misinterpreted – what I was attempting to say was that in DC space they have Wolcott, where Mercs can obtain a second contract to undertake work within Jaguar / Bear Territory.
Thus in the Lyran Space Camelot can function as a similar base – allowing Lyran (F-C) Mercs the chance of conducting contracts within Falcon / Wolf Territory.
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It would have provided the Falcons with a huge advantage.
It is a huge advantage to whom-ever holds it!
This entire facility should have been the centerpiece of an entire book on its own – not just the Snords book of finding it (again) – but a book similar to the Black Thorns.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/20/20 07:45 PM
1.158.235.15
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Due to the nature of the Invasion Corridor, initially four Clans invading side by side, don’t you think that the middle two Clans (Bears and Wolves) became insulated against any IS counterattack?
That is for any real IS attack upon the Bears and Wolves you had to go through the Jaguars and Falcons to get at them.
Question – would it have been better if there were two invasion corridors (ie. Corridor one – Falcons / Wolves and Corridor two Bears / Jaguars) and there was a corridor of worlds (The FRR) between the two - why the FRR was viewed as being weak (providing the middle two clans with an advantage) – and as such the middle two Clans would have an easier time during the invasion, whereas the outer two must fight the Great Houses?
OR/-
Should the IS have won more worlds than that of the two TPTB allowed them to win – thus providing corridors within the Clan Invasion that would allow the IS forces to attack into the heartland of the middle two clans.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/20/20 11:58 PM
66.74.60.165
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No fighters would be there as they abandoned the facility. They would have taken them with the exodus.
And tech support probably did not know how to FIX the naval weapons. I would think it did have some still guarding the place.
So it having drones would mean the ones guarding the Sol system should not have been unexpected when the mercs tried to take WOB out. Gee. Sounds familiar.
Fighter carriers would work in the alt, but if, in canon, the FC had them to being with, the Clans would not have gotten such a foot hold. They would have been used to hit dropships and even the warships.
I don't think the Falcons would have backed off for a few reasons. First, the facility can not remain in the barbarian hands of the FC. Second, just threatening to destroy it would cause them to start ignoring their own traditions. Third, if they actually did have it and used it, that may well released the Crusaders into a larger offensive.
May being the key word.
And the problem with a dead man's switch is what happens if the person dies of starvation? You know the Falcons would do what ever they could to remove the threat, as even with the zeal for SL facilities, leaving this base in IS hands would give them a base to strike at them from. So the ideas of the Falcons would say they would not back off.
Initially, the Bears and Wolves would face counter attacks. One the truce went into effect, having to move thru the Jaguars/Falcons was an issue. Much like raiding either clan from the IS.
Do you honestly think the Wolves and Falcons could share a corridor? Or the Jaguars and Bears? The Wolves were assigned the FRR because the crusaders wanted to insult the Wolves as the FRR was weak. Not sure about the Bears. They might have been the loser of the winners prize with the FRR. The Falcons and Jaguars would have the glory of hitting the better states.
As they did not really say anything, I do suspect that the IS won a few worlds, only to lose them again. Much like most wars. Hold with what they had, and hit their second and third lines with the elite units, then garrison them with the IS own weaker units. But then that would be more realistic then the clans just running over everyone and only two wins for the IS. Especially after the Dragoon meeting. So I do agree they SHOULD have.
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Requiem
02/21/20 01:48 AM
1.158.235.15
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So it having drones would mean the ones guarding the Sol system should not have been unexpected when the mercs tried to take WOB out. Gee. Sounds familiar.
What it also means is that the F-C (Lyrans) should have also had drone technology when reverse engineering the technology as well as the software upon the facility.
So where is this technology? …..
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the facility cannot remain in the barbarian hands
Even if those barbarians threaten to destroy it?
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just threatening to destroy it would cause them to start ignoring their own traditions
Ignoring their own traditions is a very big step over the line …. If it could be hushed up afterward, and as long as they won then I guess this could be a possibility … However, if they lose to the IS and are unable to gain Camelot, someone will need to take the fall for the loss.
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And the problem with a dead man's switch is what happens if the person dies of starvation?
Coming in from a non standard jump points this might be difficult to believe.
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The Falcons would do what-ever they could to remove the threat …. they would not back off
Agree, but this facility is worth the issues in keeping it …… over time this facility will become the most fortified Lyran facility within the IS …. Not only would there be drones but nuclear mine fields and a massive amount of aerospace fighters and a squadron of new Lyran Warships.
Thus setting the scene for what will one day become the largest Naval battles of that era ….
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Do you honestly think the Wolves and Falcons could share a corridor? Or the Jaguars and Bears?
Unknown, what I want is a way for the IS to strike at the Wolves and the Bears heartland – as is, initially you would have to go through the other Clans / down through the Periphery or through their front line forces – all difficult.
Thus by having another means of ingress / egress into that area we can have more battles against their interior forces when they least expect it.
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But then that would be more realistic then the clans just running over everyone and only two wins for the IS.
This is what I find very difficult to believe …. against just ‘Mechs they had a clear advantage, however with regards to multiple RCTs which include vehicles, artillery, infantry (SRM – Inferno), conventional fighters and bombers etc. they lose their advantage.
Especially after the Dragoon meeting, Wolcott and Twycross – to believe the current strategies would remain the same after these three events is highly unbelievable.
This is why I believe the “Year of Peace” is in error – this should have been the “Year of Preparedness” (as for the return of the Clans’ Invasion) – new training / strategies new equipment. – Preparation of the Grounds (Battlefields) to come in the future similar to that of Gothic line etc. in WW2 Italy.
This is where the Clans should have become stuck in the ground – their fatal flaw in replacement personnel (Sibko System) – kill enough of them and their ability to advance in numbers becomes very difficult (and unbelievable).
My belief is that post the “Year of ……..” there should have evolved many very large scale battles involving armies rather than individual units.
Having two corridors in my opinion would make for a more interesting game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/21/20 12:03 PM
66.74.60.165
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The drone tech went where clan tech did when the IS took Huntress. In the black hole that prevents upgrades in the IS tech.
Who knows. Maybe they blew the fabric of reality to make that black hole.
If I remember right, the Falcons were not initially going to issue the batchall as they didn't think the IS was worthy enough to even try. Granted, it wasn't like they didn't break with tradition on several occasions. The warship incidence to gain SL artifacts should be enough to tilt this to the Falcons.
The issue isn't so much pirate points, but just holding the blockade just outside of weapons range. It would be much easier to blockade the station then a full planet. Not saying blockade running isn't possible, but it could be very costly. Again, this is canon thoughts. The alt could very well have nullified this with the introduction of warships and fighter brigades. Keep the Falcons from even getting this far.
Again. During the initial invasion, the Wolves/Bears were accessible to being hit. The only real issue there might have been is if the FRR would allow the FC/DC to hit worlds with the clans. Also, the two clans did hit worlds in the FC/DC. The issue does relate to the going thru other clans. The worlds they would use to do so, were very threatened by the Falcon/Jaguars.
A single RCT use as they were during their conception thru the 3039 war would have stopped more then a few quick victories for the clans, as well as allowing better counter assaults. The issue is how the dropships work when loading and unloading. Shutting down the main engines is a problem. No quick lift off. But it does seem like they were ignored or just left out of things. A full hull covered LRM launchers or even SRM launchers could have done some major hurt to the clans. And with SRMs being used, the Demolisher and others would be usable to. The VTOLs were show to be effective for the game rules. The main thing that counters them is fighters. And we know the clans seem to shun them, even though they are still trueborn for the most part. Only the Snow Ravens seem to have 'enough' of them. But then challenges normally don't use fighters like mechs.
Now here's something. You can make a scattered mine field with LRM, but wouldn't you make up a missile option for SRMs? Put them on hover craft to get in close and set them up? The idea. SRMs do more damage, so you might do double damage when their field is set up.
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Requiem
02/21/20 05:28 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
The drone tech went where clan tech did when the IS took Huntress.
Agree – What could have been? Sharing Tech with re to new Star League Amendments – all IS Warships have drones? Or/-
WOB defending Terra with drones, Lyrans sending in their drones to clear a path …
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The warship incidence to gain SL artifacts should be enough to tilt this to the Falcons.
Agree – this station should have become the focus of many Falcon military assaults – the Falcons should have been obsessed with acquiring this station … even to the point of distraction from what is occurring on the front lines ….
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The issue isn't so much pirate points, but just holding the blockade just outside of weapons range.
My Opinion – the nebula itself will act like an ECM to the warship sensors – the drones however use a special one off sensor (now lost to time, even to the Clans) – thus any battle within the nebula ip problematic for those attacking – but for those defending they can receive information from the stations CIC, thus providing them with an advantage, especially if you have mined the entry way with mines (nuclear or HE?) that can be moved into the oncoming path of attacking Warships.
Thus the Falcons have a problem regarding attacking this station from the get go.
Thus over time multiple defensive rings will be introduced …. And all controlled by the Station’s CIC ….
First Ring - The Nebula itself ;
Second Ring – Multiple rings of mines and drones that can be moved in front of any oncoming vessel without them knowing;
Third Ring – Multiple Aerospace Fighter flights (armed with nuclear missiles);
Fourth Ring – IS Warships;
Fifth Ring – Close Support Aerospace Fighter flights (armed with HE anti Drop-Ship Missiles) together with the stations own Naval weapons;
Sixth Ring – Station’s Security Marines and BattleMech complement; and lastly ….
Seventh Ring – The Dead Man Switch, (Nickname: the 7th Ring of Hell)
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During the initial invasion, the Wolves/Bears were accessible to being hit.
And by the 4th Wave this is becoming problematic ….
As for the FRR – why would they object as the New SLDF is fighting to get their worlds back from the Clans?
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A single RCT use as they were during their conception thru the 3039 war would have stopped more then a few quick victories for the clans, as well as allowing better counter assaults.
Agree – to me it appears as on the whole the invasion was just about Mech to Mech fights ….. considering the massive amount of vehicles and conventional fighters / bombers available to the IS the Clan must either increase their bid per world or face annihilation through their utilization.
Also considering the number of conventional fighters / bombers that are available to IS forces these alone should have been problematic to any Clan force.
(As like Huntress Weapon Tech and many other pieces of Tech – Conventional fighters just disappeared from the game, and yet when you read about them they should have been incredibly proliferate throughout the IS.)
This is why I am not impressed with the Canon writing - too many problems / issues when you start looking into what should be there – the flexibility of IS forces to use different units should be able to hammer Clan Attack forces – more Clan dead / captured means they cannot be replaced (issues with the Sibko system) – which will cause problems as the invasion continues – their unit numbers should begin to shrink as the Loss Depletion report starts showing an alarming trend in the Clan’s ability to continue. And yet the Canon story has them always at 100% combat strength (no dead / Captured at all!) whereas the IS suffer a horrendous amount of dead / loss of equipment, it just does not make any sense whatsoever!
The problem with mine fields is the clans will use their lasers to cut a path through – however whist they are doing this they are vulnerable – at this stage I would send in artillery / Bombers at 80.000 feet with mass gravity bombs – like to see how many survive?
Then follow this up with mass high velocity vehicle waves and VTOL waves who’s aim is to get into their rear and attacking this vulnerability.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/21/20 08:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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That is why the drone tech had to disappear until WOB strike.
Had that tech been around in the FC, the strikes wouldn't have been able to be done on the FC.
And it is unlikely the FC would have shared this tech with anyone else. So they could guard all worlds, making it that much harder for the FC to be hit.
The idea of having them on warships would destroy the other nations. But more realistic, just dropships full of them, such as a vengeance, would be more then enough to wipe out most defenses around a world.
Which also makes me wonder about tech that didn't get used. What happened to the Titan fighter carrier?
Just had a thought. The drone tech could well remove mechs from the game. Using swarms, you could wipe out any unit, even just using normal ordinance. A swarm should be cheaper then even a locust. With this in mind, I can see why the tech went out the window, but this is a case of being stupid enough to let it into the game (WOB bs).
Question. Why would you follow up with VTOLs? Why not have them attack DURING clearing of the minefield?
Though I don't think lasers would work well. PPCs might, as they have the charge to them, electrifying the area. Still. Only advanced probe units should see them. Something not all omnis have.
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Requiem
02/21/20 10:42 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
That is why the drone tech had to disappear until WOB strike.
…. And has it been seen since? …. So why?
This is really getting annoying where technology is redacted from the game for reason ….
Black Boxes
Lyran Arena Shields (On a city wide scale);
Huntress;
Drones;
Virtually everything the WOB manufactured including cyborgs, transformable fighters to Mechs; etc etc
If it is introduced at one point in time it must be owned by the game and it must be reverse engineered and made acceptable within a period not exceeding 10 years within the game.
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And it is unlikely the FC would have shared this tech with anyone else.
Star League provisions regarding the sharing of technology – what could the DC and the FWL and ComStar have that the F-C would want for this tech? – being Lyrans, merchants, what would be the best deal they could get for this tech?
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The idea of having them on warships would destroy the other nations. But more realistic, just dropships full of them, such as a vengeance, would be more then enough to wipe out most defenses around a world.
Now this is a great idea……..
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What happened to the Titan fighter carrier?
The Clans have their retrofitted versions.
My Home Group went into the lost worlds of the TH and found two as well as the complete plans for them – when returned to Lyran space entered into a deal with Shipil Company (Skye) where they began manufacturing them once more ….
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The drone tech could well remove mechs from the game. Using swarms …..
The Drones from Camelot Command are space based only …..
If you want a very nasty and cheap on-world drone – Has anyone considered what a Boomerang spotter plane should be armed with – ie some kind of OS Missiles or gravity HE weapon ……
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Why would you follow up with VTOLs? Why not have them attack DURING clearing of the minefield?
During the minefield stage I want to just hit them hard with artillery and Bombers, thereafter I want the VTOLS to support the Vehicles – personal preference on attack patterns?
You could start early if you want to I don’t see why not ….
Probes …. Even the Clan’s are not that great due to range ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/21/20 11:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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Stop and think of the time line. The new SL wasn't built until after the clan invasion was stopped. So do you think the FC would have shared that tech? I honestly would think they would NOT have joined, or started it, as they had the winning piece of the wars with the drones.
And I have said it before. Games like having ultimate weapons used against the players, but in the end, the players seem to get it. So those ultimate weapons tend to be crap at that point. It is very stupidly frustrating.
Well another thing with VTOLs during artillery firing. They can be spotters as well. Even having a few equipped with TAG would help.
Now with drones, once you get the command coding right, you could make them of almost any size. Even a remote fighter, stuffed with explosives would work. Hehe, make it a REAL bomber.
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Requiem
02/22/20 01:54 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
Stop and think of the time line. The new SL wasn't built until after the clan invasion was stopped. So do you think the FC would have shared that tech?
Depends on what was offered for it if it is something of importance – yes I believe they would have shared it.
But that something would have to be something great importance.
Quote:
ultimate weapons
Two things wrong with every weapon,
The first, the engineer believing they have made the ultimate weapon,
The second, the operator believing the engineer ….
The problem is these weapons are made for a specific story and thereafter forgotten … but how many of us would have liked the continuance of certain tech in the game beyond this one story?
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Well another thing with VTOLs during artillery firing. They can be spotters as well. Even having a few equipped with TAG would help.
I agree, but it still comes down to personal preference in how you run your unit.
Quote:
Now with drones, once you get the command coding right, you could make them of almost any size. Even a remote fighter, stuffed with explosives would work. Hehe, make it a REAL bomber.
I agree this would be interesting - Question how fast can you make a fighter with just enough armor and no weapons whatsoever, except for a nuclear warhead – Kamikaze anyone?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/29/20 08:07 PM
1.158.235.15
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A question of numbers:-
First
Eleven planets within the Jade Falcon Invasion Corridor have a population approximately one hundred and two times that of Clan Jade Falcon upon the Clan Home worlds.
(Note – 37 worlds do not have a population figures so this could be far more in excess once these worlds populations are added in)
Sudeten 20 times Graus 25 times BlackJack 9 times Hot springs 13 Twycross 10
So how can any Clan Police / Govern worlds whose populations are far more than anything they have ever even considered. There is no way they have the forces to hold these worlds even if they introduce PGS. Sorry but the numbers do not lie the Clans cannot hold the worlds they conquer without the application of Gestapo tactics. They just do not have the numbers to hold highly populated worlds.
Is this a farcical history?
Second
A Leviathan Heavy Transport – 250,000 passengers
Population (Clan Space) 24,294,000 (3060)
To move the entire Clan Wholesale to the IS would take over 100 ships
They began converting mothballed Leviathan Class dreadnoughts into Arc Ships in 3055 and finished in 3060 – 20 per year – question how big are their shipyards and how big are their crews and how big are their manufacturing facilities to make all of this come together?
Plus it is interesting to note the Clan with smallest population (half of that of the next Clan) moved their population to the IS? Coincidence?
Is this a farcical history?
Cloud Cobra - Population (Clan Space): 58,374,000 (3060)
Coyote - Population (Clan Space): 73,360,000 (3060)
Goliath Scorpion - Population (Clan space): 67,238,000 (3060)
Hell’s Horses - Population (Clan Space): 95,317,000 (3060)
Nova Cats - Unknown
Snow Raven - Population (Clan Space): 94,199,000 (3060)
Steel Viper - Population (Clan Space): 57,275,000 (3060)
Wolf - Unknown
Ghost Bear - Population (Clan Space): 24,294,000 (3060)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jade Falcon - Population (Clan Space): 116,264,000 (3060)
Diamond Shark - Population (Clan Space): 67,859,000 (3060)
Blood Spirit - Unknown
Fire Mandrill - Population (Clan Space): 81,719,000 (3060)
Ice Hellion - Population (Clan Space): 101,309,000 (3060)
Smoke Jaguar - Unknown
Star Adder - Population (Clan Space): 108,695,000 (3060) – (Nt. Clan Burrock joined Star Adder in 3059 thus this figure is two clans added together at this stage)
How can any of these Clans expect to govern any large area within the IS given their incredibly small population – plus the incredible distance between the IS and Clan Space – even with Arc ships full of infantry you would have difficulty governing many worlds?
With Attrition Warfare the Clans do not have the population or the military numbers to survive for long when compared to the IS?
They may be able to win for the first couple of years – but thereafter all bets are off and they will be unable to sustain heavy casualties as that of the IS – the sibko system / reluctance to train free-born they will be unable to take the losses that the IS can.
Is the entire Clan Invasion farcical?
So rather than having a clan sibko system should that have had a “Clone” system where they could just produce fully grown warriors, and in numbers, as required for the war they are fighting at that time to sustain the casualties involved in an attrition war?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/01/20 05:15 AM
1.158.235.15
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Question
Given the information received by Wolf’s Dragoons regarding the Inner Sphere - Should each of the Clans have increased the manufacture numbers of their elementals into something that will work – each with a Leviathan Carrier of 250,000 elementals?
As what would happen if you gave everyone within a RCT infantry unit a SRM with Inferno rounds to fight the Mechs and the elementals (Toads)?
Plus there is the issue of weapons – how are you going to remove them from a single world who’s population is 20 times that of the your Clans population on the home world.
I cannot see how they can convince the entire police force to work for them is they have such limited numbers.
One decent revolt by many sharp shooters using hunting rifles and they could easily kill of the majority of warriors if they are outside at the same time as garrisons rarely went over a Cluster ….
Farcical Clan invasion garrisons?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/01/20 07:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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One thing that changes the numbers some is the fact the Leviathan would not have been the main jumpship to move troops into the IS. Potemkins if they have them.
The production of elemental armor isn't the problem here, but the actual troopers to fill them would be. Tradition vs necessity. Do you stick with just the best? Or drop the standards to get the numbers?
This is the issue with getting the elemental troopers.
But the PGC did have normal infantry, or so the clan invasion novels suggests. It was also suggested that they had them in the invasion forces as well.
The main way I could see the police working for an invader is when you have the hope that the nation you were part of will kick the invaders off the planet. Best not to have thousands or even millions killed from stupid mistake, like thinking your baseball bat will cave in the head of an armored trooper. Now once the government started their purges, and other issues, then they would be more likely to help the resistance, but only when they won't be caught. It helps the resistance to have someone on the inside of the enemy camp.
And if you think about it, what other job would they have or be able to get? Life goes on even after the shooting stops. Not a side the game focuses on.
They had revolts. The Falcons and Jaguars were having issues with a lot of them. Which is used on part of why the Wolves got ahead of the others.
It does appear they did not have a mathematician on staff, or just didn't really think it out. 1+1=3 in this case.
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Requiem
03/02/20 06:29 AM
101.185.82.147
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Potemkin
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Potemkin and https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Spina_ArcShip_(Spina_Khanate)
“30 of which survived the Amaris coup and departed with General Aleksandr Kerensky on the Exodus.” …..”many Potemkin-class ships are modified into mobile habitats known as ArcShips” (arcship = sea fox Poseidon – 50 Dropships)
So they only need to build nearly all 100 from scratch in Clan Space to move the entire Ghost Bear Population.
Quote:
Do you stick with just the best? Or drop the standards to get the numbers?
Without the numbers every garrison base within the IS is wide open for commando / Elite Killer Teams of every House’s Spy Organization / assault / partisan IEDs etc. – given a month on every world they (the Garrison) would either all be dead or captured!
Quote:
But the PGC did have normal infantry
The entire Jade Falcon PGCs complement – when introduced – was only 225 Mechs and 20 aerospace fighters – 5 Clusters and next to no infantry.
So how many worlds can be garrisoned by this small force? Realistically 5 worlds – and even then they will not last long without a security force guarding them.
Quote:
The main way I could see the police working for an invader is when you have the hope that the nation you were part of will kick the invaders off the planet.
Sorry but I do not know of any historical precedent that will support this. Fear does not work – even the treat of Orbital bombardment will not work.
Quote:
Now once the government started their purges, and other issues, then they would be more likely to help the resistance, but only when they won't be caught.
The Government being the Clans and their cronies!
The problem is the Clans never brought in a police force in numbers required – when one world alone has a population 20 times in excess of the home clans there is a problem and when eleven worlds have a population of over 102 times that of the home clans the idea the clans have a police force that can work in the IS borders on the ludicrous.
The numbers are just not there! The Clans do not, and have never had, a population that can govern any of the larger population worlds within the IS. – even an entire Galaxy would have problems.
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Life goes on even after the shooting stops.
I agree, when ever Clan warrior is either an inner Sphere bondsman or is residing six feet under ….
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They had revolts. The Falcons and Jaguars were having issues with a lot of them.
Yes they did …. But it is interesting to note that these revolts were only mentioned as occurring – they never went into specifics as to how they achieved normality ….
And then by 3150 look at the size of each of their empires – this has now become completely ludicrous – there is no way they could hold their original invasion corridor given the level of forces they had – to believe they have the forces in the far future to control such a large area is the single most ludicrous idea yet to be considered!!!!!!
Quote:
It does appear they did not have a mathematician on staff, or just didn't really think it out. 1+1=3 in this case.
Without quantifiable numbers – how many units were lost / gained – how many units were produced at any period of time etc the game can only be considered to be a formless idea with no validity to give it form.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/02/20 06:31 AM)
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ghostrider
03/02/20 12:46 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not fear holding the police to do their jobs, but tradition of the IS. Most border worlds, and even some deep ones, changed hands enough that they just dealt with new bosses, more then not. Keep the people as safe as you can while your nation tries to take the world back. The entire succession wars has shown that. Though some will still strike out at the invaders no matter what.
The other side to saying the government cronies is a simple fact. Is your home nation going to be able to do anything to get you back?
I just realized, there is yet another group that might support the clans. The illegal militias. Separatists. Criminals that want to run something. These might well join the clans, maybe in an indirect way, to gain some of their goals. Some groups were not touchable by the local police as they had friends in high places. Didn't have the man power to find them, or they were that well hidden. Maybe even being part of the little organization that kept their pay going up.
The main revolt that got attention wasn't as big of a deal because of the orbital bombardment, but because Theodore's son was there, and they were helping his escape. If not for that, the entire revolt would not have gone off like it did.
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Requiem
03/02/20 04:05 PM
101.185.82.147
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Quote:
Not fear holding the police to do their jobs, but tradition of the IS. Most border worlds, and even some deep ones, changed hands enough that they just dealt with new bosses, more then not.
And how long would these people be loyal when they find out their new bosses believe in genetic superiority – they want to place you in castes where you and your children have no say in their lives destiny – and at age 13 must leave home and go to work wherever their warrior overlords demand just because they came they came out of a womb and not a metal test tube ….
Within the IS people understand the power dynamics – even the House Lords understand that if they leave the people alone they will just accept the new house lord as all that really changed was the currency and the public holidays.
The Clans however want to reshape everything – their totalitarian regime is too completely alien for any person who grew up with the liberties and rights allowed by the original House Lords.
This is WW2 Germany France / Russia but on steroids.
Getting people to accept this barbarian way of life is beyond ludicrous – the entire idea of suggesting that where just 11 of the Captured Jade Falcon worlds whose population is over 100 times that of their population back on their home world would just meekly accept this change is asinine. There is no way any IS parent would just give over their children to this regime of xenophobic, war mongrels. Plus going from a society based upon consumerism to one that has next to none – as well as no freedoms (you will not be allowed to leave to go on a holiday you will have to remain permanently within your designated area.
Plus can you see anyone within the IS willingly giving up on their family / cultural identity? That of no longer having a last name …..
So unless the Clans are going to station ‘massive’ garrisons (Vietnam 2.0 x 1,000,000 in the violence) on each conquered world to keep them pacified – and at the same time come to realization that they cannot dictate to the people, they have to ask and pay for everything – and they have to leave these worlds cultures alone they will have partisan armies fighting against them for generations into the future – in all intense and purposes they will never be safe worlds for a clansman to reside on.
The entire Clan’s culture would be so abhorrent in the eyes of 99.9% of the IS population. The resistance would never end and over time it would become extremely violent in its backlash towards their Clans oppressors.
Something that TPTB completely overlooked – Psychology – Sociology – Religion - all completely ignored by the games specs!
Quote:
Though some will still strike out at the invaders no matter what.
Within the Clan’s Home Worlds they play at the idea of war – Within the IS they live with the idea of war in all its violence.
The Clans have no concept at all as to garrison security as they do not require it on their Home Worlds – consider a unit of the DC’s Internal Security Force – how many minutes would it take for a team to penetrate a clan garrison, for example a trinary, and liquidate the warriors within – 20 to 30 minutes max?
Also have you ever read anywhere they have a base security against long range snipers – multiple long range snipers at a range of 1km and the majority of Clan person outside will be liquidated.
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Is your home nation going to be able to do anything to get you back?
More to the point are yoy going to do anything to get yourself back – Kennedy “Ask not what your country is going to do for you, ask what you can do for your country”.
With the entire garrison assassinated how long before a relief force arrives to retake the world?
Quote:
I just realized, there is yet another group that might support the clans. The illegal militias. Separatists. Criminals that want to run something. These might well join the clans
They are Dark Caste – will they ever be accepted by the Clans? Given Clan Society Rules they would be killed on sight once the Clans realize who / what they are.
Separatists – giving up one ruler for an even more totalitarian ruler? Not likely!
Criminals – Dark Caste!
Quote:
The main revolt that got attention wasn't as big of a deal because of the orbital bombardment, but because Theodore's son was there, and they were helping his escape. If not for that, the entire revolt would not have gone off like it did.
And yet it did …. because of their underlying Japanese culture … WW2 … OPERATION Downfall and Japan’s Plans – sooner or later every DC world would revolt against the Clans, it is hardwired into their DNA.
Again there is no way the Clans can remove an entire worlds weapons they do not have the people or the resources – the idea of a garrison less than cluster size would survive for any long period of time is ludicrous – and on worlds where the population is over 1 billion will require a galaxy garrison.
It is not attrition warfare that will bring down the clans it is partisan warfare.
The more small garrison you have the easier it will be to assassinate entire units – the Clans do not have the resources to guard their bases – they have lost all experience in garrison security the day they chose to implement the idea of Trials of possession (a nice and neat way of fighting war that has no place within an IS Battlefield) – a vulnerability that would see them all dead in no time at all!
The Fact is the Clans may be able to take worlds and to damage opposing forces yet when it comes to garrisoning anything they are completely useless when in the IS.
They just do not understand – and they do not have the numbers to survive a protected insurgent campaign where entire worlds populations will fight against them.
The premise that entire worlds populations would just meekly give up to these totalitarian invaders is abhorrent!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/03/20 03:52 AM
66.74.60.165
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Not everyone will fight an overlord. Even with what may happen. And for some worlds, this is standard operating procedure. They put up with it, as most will not die to defend a nation when you don't have the equipment to even begin to try. Not everyone has a slug thrower, much less one that will crack an elemental or mech armor. And this does lead to even more people working with that government, thinking they can get out from doing what the rest do.
Didn't Katherine do that with her child with Vlad? You know. The one that was carving up the LA. Let's not forget Omi and Victor's child. Omi gave him up, so all ties were cut with it. And we won't talk about the assassinations and such done by siblings.
As a side note, these children were learning skills they would or could use in the future. I don't think warrior training would happen, but what about being a tech? Or scientist?
Some people live for their last name. Some don't care. Without one, how do you push that you deserve to rule, or even inherit something from a will?
The concept of those that would help the clans were NOT meant to be dark caste, but those inside the IS on worlds taken. People born in the LA/DC/FRR. Initially, they would love removal of the government, as well as any possible criminal records. Once the fairy tale ends, when they get thrown in with the rest of the population, they would learn. Time is the issue.
Might be the DNA in the alt, but in the canon, they didn't do it to get the world back, they did it to give Hohiro time to get away from the world. To try and say otherwise, means the story wasn't comprehended.
Clarification. The attrition war, was meant for invading the clan home worlds, not retaking IS worlds. And partisan actions will not win back worlds. It would help set them up to be taken by national forces, but will not return them.
And without the print of how many non elemental infantry they had brought with them, there is only guessing they couldn't cover worlds.
And it isn't entire worlds. Just most of the population that has no real skills in killing enemy soldiers, and have the hard ware to do so. There will always be someone trying to fight. Effectiveness and support is the problem.
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Requiem
03/03/20 06:01 AM
101.185.82.147
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Not everyone will fight an overlord.
True – but if you just get 1 to 10% or the population becoming part of an active defense cell how long will any Clan garrison survive?
Questions – 1. when you are living on the front line and your world is constantly changing hands how long before you get a weapon to defend your family; 2. The local militia – how many concealed weapons / ammunition drops will be scattered throughout them planet when they are called upon to assist / repel an invader – also what would the majority of these contain – infantry weapons / heavy infantry support weapons et al – more than enough to crack open an Elemental (Toad.)
3. Also how many support vehicles would be concealed throughout the planet?
Plus I would like to say in some European countries – when you purchase a house you get a military rifle as well, as the entire population undergoes military training. And as the worlds information does not go this deep there is no way of knowing what for sure what each planet’s reserve units contain.
However I still affirm that when they attempt to put people into Castes, remove their children, and take away their last names there is going to be hell to pay – The majority of those that may have supported the Clans at the start will now be on the side of the Partisans.
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Didn't Katherine do that with her child with Vlad?
Katherine’s child’s father was not Vlad it was her brother …. Victor … iron born not in the womb.
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Omi and Victor's child.
How many people in the IS are also the DC keeper of the House Honor? …. Just one …. Omika
How many people have to give up their illegitimate children due to political reasons? … quite a lot of people with Titles
And how many normal people would put up having their children ripped from their arms? NONE
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As a side note, these children were learning skills they would or could use in the future.
And this is supposed to happen to a child at 13? And what happens if it is just menial labor – As a parent you wanted to see your child off to University, the Clans invade and your child is assigned to digging ditches? How do you feel about them then?
Remember your last name is your identity to your family and your families past and future …. Willing to give that up?
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People born in the LA/DC/FRR. Initially, they would love removal of the government.
Only some of the real hard cases …. During WW2 New York Ports the FBI had an agreement with the local Mafia to ensure the smooth supply of goods to Europe.
In the DC the local Yakuza was closely linked to the DCMS – war of 3039 - Ghost Units – Turtle Bay freeing Hohiro etc.- so that rules out the DC side of the Invasion corridor. (their society is built around respecting authority – even when they are yakuza).
As for LA side – there is not enough information to make a definitive assessment.
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The attrition war, was meant for invading the clan home worlds, not retaking IS worlds.
This is where it all falls over …. politically there is only one action – the removal of all the Clans.
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partisan actions will not win back worlds.
Disagree …. HPG message / Black Box message pre-arranged date and time to coincide with invasion …. not a problem.
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And without the print of how many non elemental infantry they had brought with them, there is only guessing they couldn't cover worlds.
Go through the each Clans Touman – you will find their PGCs do not have infantry in any great numbers – even the solhama didn’t have that many. The idea PGCs can garrison many of their worlds is not a viable theory.
Even if you used the reserve units to garrison your worlds there still is not enough to hold all the worlds after the third wave.
They have next to no effectiveness when it comes to garrisoning any IS planet.
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…. most of the population that has no real skills in killing enemy soldiers, and have the hard ware to do so
This was also the case in ww2 … and look at the size and efficiency it grew into in France.
As for hardware …. How much hardware did the local reserve / militia have? …. Plus when IS commando forces are sent in to assist / train people (together with their Black Box) how many tons of equipment could they bring in …. Depending on the type of dropship – a couple of thousand tons! So the issue is?
Thus the effectiveness and support can be rectified given time and training.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/03/20 11:50 AM
66.74.60.165
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Still not getting that if you take the clans factories and such from the home worlds, those troops still in the IS lose their ability to fix any damage after a while. Now if you push those in the IS just a little before your main hit on the home worlds goes off, those clans should have reinforcements on the way to the IS. That would give you a little breathing room for a short while.
I'm sure a few families did buy up some smaller fire arms. And lost them as each side finds them in the next invasion wave. As for something heavy then the normal hunting rifle, most don't have the funds to buy a few, much less in bulk. The planetary government would be looking to get weapons, but budget comes into this. Rebuilding things that are needed, like power grids, would take priority, as they would rely on off world forces. That is not saying they wouldn't buy any, but it would not be in a quantity to prevent another invasion.
Put up and be able to do anything about having a child taken from you are that time is a big difference. In our own history, children tended to be considered adults earlier in life, and even more likely, to be put to work at that time.
Now being 13 and having to leave the family is the very thing a recruitment drive for mech warriors does. Aero pilots require a lot more training. Not just flight controls but how to actually deal with space and follow/read the local planets to figure out where you are, as nav computers are not always working.
They would be very upset with this happening, but most don't have a means to do anything. Recruiting for a resistance would happen, and you may get a lot of people doing so. But how long they would last, as leaders fight each other for power, especially when they 'kick' out the enemy. They want to be in charge after that. And traitors will reveal some.
You disagree that partisan actions won't take back a world, then show an example of partisans not being able to take back a world. They require outside forces. Even if they are just mercs, they need outside forces to help them win.
The entire FRR comes from the locals wanting to remove their government, when they were part of the DC. Though more then a few worlds came from the LC as well. The LC worlds didn't resist or rebel against this.
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Requiem
03/03/20 04:33 PM
101.185.82.147
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Still not getting that if you take the clans factories and such from the home worlds, those troops still in the IS lose their ability to fix any damage after a while.
If clan factories are taken from the Kerensky Cluster to the IS – doesn’t their forces within the IS gain with manufacturing / repair (consumable) services? However, if they did this wouldn’t the new factory become a major target for any IS House that has available forces to either capture or destroy?
…. also in the interim between the when the factory goes off line in the Kerensky Cluster to when it goes on line again in the IS wouldn’t each Clan use their Merchants to get everything they need from other Clans or issue a Trail of Possession for the parts they need?
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I'm sure a few families did buy up some smaller fire arms. And lost them as each side finds them in the next invasion wave.
How, when there are worlds who’s populations are in the billions? The Clans do not have the forces necessary to go through a House to House Search and even then do they have the time to dig up every backyard in case they buried within a water tight PVC tube? For wouldn’t it be SOP for all records to be purged of ownership upon any successful invasion?
Also the issue of quantity – unfortunately there is no information on this topic (just like so many others) thus it is now up to each GM to make a call.
In my opinion …..
DC – given their samurai outlook – the general population would not have access (ex military / reserve units will have access) – however yakuza would have access.
FS – similar to USA – enough said, mass proliferation of arms at every level of society.
LA – Germany – again mass proliferation … seen as a duty to defend the fatherland.
FWL – each area would have their own idea as to the rights to bear arms.
FRR – they have just gone through many years of attempting to get their own state – mass proliferation – everyone wants to keep what they have just gained.
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I'm sure a few families did buy up some smaller fire arms. And lost them as each side finds them in the next invasion wave.
In the Victorian era! However within this era statistics are demonstrating a trend whereby more are undertaking higher education to get a better life currently – within the IS who knows what this would be like.
Becoming a MechWarrior at 13 is the same as being sent to military school – they can return home at break they can communicate with their family – can you say the same under the Clans? Can they return home, can they communicate with their family members? ….. sorry to say but I do not think they would allow you to do so. Total separation from the family!
Would any family member allow this?
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They would be very upset with this happening, but most don't have a means to do anything.
Really? ….. you hide your children and then you fight with whatever you have! You join / form the resistance groups and you never ever stop until you get your child back, if your child has been taken.
As time grows your anger grows as well as the extreme measures you will implement to get your child back.
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But how long they would last, as leaders fight each other for power, especially when they 'kick' out the enemy. They want to be in charge after that. And traitors will reveal some.
It will last as long as the hate remains … during the war and for all eternity for some.
As for power – they have a leader, the Head of their House and when they send in a RCT they will put their local lord back in power – they will ensure free and fair elections to vote your local parliament members back into place – they will reestablish the rules of law under that House in question.
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You disagree that partisan actions won't take back a world, then show an example of partisans not being able to take back a world.
Disagree, they can kill off an entire garrison – as long as the Clan MechWarriors do not get to their Mechs – thus you have to be creative in your plans. There is also the fact that many worlds would have a reserve / militia forces – how many of these would be on par with special forces? As many countries do have specialist reserve units!– Plus what about police SWAT units, how many police forces could assault a Mech Garrison? Wouldn’t they be trained for just this case if a merc unit needs to brought to justice and they have the opportunity of capturing them outside their ‘Mechs?
Outside forces are only required to hold the planet for the House you are affiliated with. As the Clans will send a force to retake the world.
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The entire FRR comes from the locals wanting to remove their government, when they were part of the DC. Though more then a few worlds came from the LC as well. The LC worlds didn't resist or rebel against this.
Yes they did come from the DC …. and now they will not give it up without a fight!
As for the LC – sorry to say but this is again another example of the TPTB making a massive error in understanding politics. There is no way in hell that the Archon would ever just give up Tamar without a war (too much blood has been spilt,too much history is within Tamar, and too many people consider themselves part of the LC for the Archon to ever give up so many worlds) – the DC can give up their worlds all they want but the LC will never ever do the same – just because of a few comments she made. So in all reality the FRR should only be about as half as big as it really is from the get go.
Plus a Houses power is measured in the number of worlds they control – would any politician ever give up a portion of the power they currently hold without a fight?
Time to re-write the history to something that is more believable!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/04/20 12:16 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue with using IS manufacturing is when or even if the clans have updated them to produce clan tech. Most were of the mind that it wasn't worth doing. And even with that, it makes them more vulnerable if they have to rely on factories so close to the IS enemy.
If they haven't changed over, then there is a big lag between having parts, as they do upgrade. In this case, it would be wise to just blow up those factories entirely, and start from scratch, once you remove the clans on those worlds. Harsh, but given the fact most clanners would die at this point, it may be the only way to avoid completely horrible losses.
The merchants and even trials needs to have someone to actually issue those orders or threats, and back them up. Without forces in the home worlds, there is little the IS clans could do to get more. They would have what is stockpiled, and already in the line. After that, the IS factories have to be done. And any real damage done to warships would be permanent, as the IS did not have warships at this time. Maybe the alt might, but not canon.
Ok. Seems like a misconception. You are NOT a mech warrior at 13. Just sent to train in one. Large difference. Most would be 'trained' about age 16-18, maybe older for some. A few would excel, but not many.
How many people were actually in the resistances in the history of Terra? Maybe .001 percent if that? No more then a couple thousand. With any sort of partisan action resulting in destruction of entire villages, and executions of those in them, it would quickly become the death call of the resistance. The population would start to resent you for sacrificing them in order to achieve your goals. They want to live, not become the subject to punishment for your actions. History has shown that resistances don't have that many people. And with the ability to wipe out cities in a few hours to days, it becomes more of an issue.
So what happens if you do manage to kill off all the garrison at once? Even though it is highly unlikely, what comes next? The enemy returns and starts wiping out any and all they find that were part of the 'crimes' against their authority. And if they don't get turned over, then just start genocide of the populace. Or isn't that how you describe the clans as being?
The lack of hope would keep some from resisting. With the FRR, the only way they could even attempt to retake worlds is with the DC/FC sending in the forces. This isn't like just changing hands on the border, but being 5 or so jumps deep behind the border, and with all the combat resulting it further losses for your side, you become a planner, but not doing anything until you get some assurances, you are not just another diversion for someone else to gain freedom.
The resistance leaders will not be so easy to hand over the power back to the government which abandoned them, or even wanted to have them. Some would do just enough to stave off retribution from an enemy, in order to keep their power. And the assassinations and such just won't be happening. The masses want a peace, and to make a living. Having their children being trained, but still able to contact them would be enough for most families. The reduction of crimes for the most part, may well be welcomed in some worlds, cities, and such.
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