Requiem
09/12/18 05:33 AM
58.175.193.140
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First, information and refugees of the Clan invasion were able to escape and inform the entire Inner Sphere before Comstar started its self-censorship program.
Second, this is an Alternative Universe discussion, so why again with the cannon?
Third, the ability for any refugees to escape the Clan invasion was due to how lucky they were in escaping the oncoming juggernaut.
Fourth, it was previously discussed that due to the interdiction and the shadow war between Federated Commonwealth Spies and that of ComStars Spies in all likelihood Hanse Davion would have initiated a plan to ensure both realms would never be caught out like that again. Thus Black Boxes would have been distributed upon a priority basis throughout their entire spy / military / worlds – to think otherwise is ludicrous.
Fifth, unless you know the frequency they are operating upon how can you block it, and this could be changed every 24 hours. As for the Clans would they not want to incept the message, decipher it, and gain actionable intelligence they could utilize rather than block it?
Sixth, Politics – believing just one clans removal for the Inner Sphere is NOT believable. As Stated before with my WW2 analogy. Why just recapture Italy and allow Germany to control the remainder of Europe – it MUST BE the removal of all.
Seventh, how can the Clan’s know the exodus road coordinates has been compromised if the Inner Sphere is not making any discernible moves in that direction? Would not their arrogance blind them to this possibility? Plus would not the security regarding the existence of the Exodus Road be on par with the D-Day invasion date? Thus surprise would have still been on their side no matter the date.
Eighth, With the re-formation of the Star League and the SLDF would there not be a command and control unit be created the same as in WW2 when Dwight D. Eisenhower was made supreme commander of Allied forces in Western Europe? Thus working towards a unified overall strategy is achievable by the SLDF.
Ninth, Any build-up of SLDF units would have been seen as a normal rearmament by the Inner Sphere as a direct response to the Clans Invasion and their enforced 15 year estoppel by the ComGuards.
Tenth, Even if the WOB only helped the FWL it does not matter for their assistance would have proved instrumental in establishing a large FWL Navy. Bu as this is an Alt Universe we can say that they would assist all SLDF as a whole, and provide their 13 Shadow Units with full membership to the new Star League.
Eleventh, using any rational it would be more effective long term to build up the SLDF forces and Navies and then just prior to the end of the 15 year truce initiate Operation Bulldog – then and only then with a successfully bulldog would Operation Serpent be allowed to proceed. To do otherwise is taking too much of a gamble as the SLDF may require these forces during Operation Bulldog when fighting against all those Inner Sphere Clans that do not defect to the Star League.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/12/18 04:55 PM
66.74.61.223
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It seems that all suggestions of what would or should have been done in canon is coming up, and not set up for an alt. It seems to be pointed at the writers being wrong for going with their ideas, and suggesting they were ill informed.
Maybe better wording would be in order.
Fifth, unless you know the frequency they are operating upon how can you block it, and this could be changed every 24 hours.
Where does it say anything about changing freqs? Supposition yet again?
If you could change them, then the receiver and all that deal with it would need to be changed as well. This is IF they can be changed.
Thus Black Boxes would have been distributed upon a priority basis throughout their entire spy / military / worlds – to think otherwise is ludicrous.
How many of these can be built in a month? Year? Who and where could they be done?
No mass production, as it could/would be traced, as well as some disappearing from cargo shipments. Even a 'pirate' attack could be blamed for them going missing. And distributing them would be an issue.
And we won't get into the issues of a planetary government using them. Might as well scream what you have.
Sixth, Politics – believing just one clans removal for the Inner Sphere is NOT believable. As Stated before with my WW2 analogy. Why just recapture Italy and allow Germany to control the remainder of Europe – it MUST BE the removal of all
As stated in another thread. Lack of understanding of the clans would mean things are that different from history. The Dragoons as well as contacts with others, would more then show that one clans destruction would be seen as a refusal, without suggesting the IS forces were out to destroy all of them. None of the others would get involved helping the Jaguars, as long as it was just them being hit. This has no real world examples to it. To hit all of them, would be seen as a try to destroy them all. That would cause ALL of them to strike.
This could be said of all other houses in the IS, so the first lord of the Star League would be useless. Destruction of all that oppose you.
Seventh, how can the Clan’s know the exodus road coordinates has been compromised if the Inner Sphere is not making any discernible moves in that direction? Would not their arrogance blind them to this possibility?
HPG messages being sent out saying they were under attack? You suggest refugees can escape when the clans take all jumpships at jump points, but the HPG doesn't work? They have them on each world for each clan. Hole in logic?
WOB did help the CC as well. But that is being over looked.
Also, you fail to grasp the fact the losing clans of the Tukyyid campaign are bound by the truce. The Jade Falcon command said straight up, they were not bound by it, but would abide by it.
So you trust their word? Wait for them to bring in more forces as well as other clans to invade, while the others were forced to sit by and watch them take Terra?
There would be challenges, but what good does that do if the came in from the Outworlds Alliance direction, or FWL?
You would be so foolish to think they would not be rebuilding, or even prepping other clans to invade? The raids above the line, as well as the Corsair attacks showed they were not going to sit by idly.
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Requiem
09/12/18 07:22 PM
58.175.193.140
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First and Third,
QUOTE, “HPG messages being sent out saying they were under attack? You suggest refugees can escape when the clans take all jumpships at jump points, but the HPG doesn't work? They have them on each world for each clan. Hole in logic?”
How vast is a jump point? (have a re-look at the discussion regarding nuclear mines at the jump point) There is no way anyone can secure the area of a jump point unless they have thousands (may-be even hundreds of thousands) of ships all within one jump point at the same time due to the vastness of a jump point.
Question, how does the HPG stop working during the pre-invasion wave one? As at this stage even ComStar does not know who these invaders are when it comes to pirate family refugees.
Fifth, yes this is a supposition that they can change frequencies but all the info. provided states they act like a fax machine – so are they just like an enigma box used in WW2 with an open frequency or something a little more advanced. Considering the level of technological sophistication that went into their creation I would believe that unless, due to the physics of the device restricting all HPG traffic to a narrow band width, there must be multiple frequencies.
As if there is only one frequency then would not all the HPG traffic become cluttered and unreadable throughout the inter-sphere as multiple HPGs within a single area of space attempt to communicate with each other all at the same time?
Sixth, No this would not mean all of them would strike!
All it would mean is that all of those within the Inner Sphere are continuing on with the initial invasion of 17 years ago and as per the original Bidding it is up to them to win.
The only thing that could bring all of them (The Home Clans) into the war is if you go to the Clan Home Worlds and attack one of the Clans that is not involved in the initial war.
Think of it like their rules of etiquette when involved in ‘Mech combat. One on One but when you attack a second you get a “Grand Melee”.
So by attacking a Clan that is not involved in the Initial War is the only way you get a Grand Melee War, you are declaring that all of the Clans can be involved in the War. But restricting it to those of the initial invasion, it is just an extension of the original thought process with the Smoke Jaguars “It is their problem as we have not been involved in the War”.
Seventh, What HPG messages? if Operation Serpent has not been dispatched upon the exodus road until AFTER the success of Operation Bulldog.
Twelfth, The Jade Falcons – they would continue with incursions into the Lyran half of the Federated Commonwealth as per Coventry. But the wolf is ever ready to exploit any weakness as are the new SLDF during this rearmament phase …. so SOP …. It would be expected that all the Clans at one time or another would fight the Inner Sphere above the line … as the Jade Falcon’s put it to ‘test the metal’ of their new recruits and to keep their Talons Sharp.
And would not the SLDF do the reverse by invading worlds within the Clan Occupation Zone and issuing challenges for planets at the same time – thus keeping them off balance at the same time whist guerrilla activities continue upon all Clan Held Worlds.
As for bringing in more forces we do have Fenrir (my Alt. Universe) Fighting in the Deep Periphery restricting these forces and diverting them to garrison their Supply Depos.
There is also the SLDF Refusal Battle (as per my previous Alt. History post) if they win – no more additional “Administrative” units within the Inner Sphere can also be considered.
As for other Cans being allowed an Invasion Corridor in the Inner Sphere, doubtful, as would not each Inner Sphere Clan Fight a Refusal Battle (War?) to ensure this never happens – as if there are more Clans this means their chance of becoming the iL-Clan is reduced – and this is not a situation that they (the Inner Sphere Clans) would allow.
So doubtful any new Clan would invade, though I do agree the Inner Sphere Clans would also be attempting to build up their forces one way or another.
If push comes to shove could this even start a Civil War with the Clans (Inner Sphere Clans Vs. Home World Clans) over their eligibility to being part of the Invasion? And if so would not the SLDF capitalise upon this war, striking when both Inner Sphere and Home World are at their most vulnerable?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/12/18 07:36 PM)
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ghostrider
09/12/18 11:24 PM
66.74.61.223
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How vast are jump points? Not as big when you have active combat ships patrolling the area, and on top of that, pirates did not have a constant stream of ships going in and out. Most were lucky to have more then one jumpship. And trying to coordinate a pick up? Yeah. Sure.
The HPG comment was about the IS heading into the periphery to attack the clan home worlds. IE hitting their bases along the way.
And thinking on this, the size of the IS fleet has pretty much the same issues as the original exodus with supplies, so waiting and gathering an even larger force would be a folly. Trying to get supplies caught up with the invasion forces going to the clan worlds mean sitting at jump points for weeks. Not a smart thing to do.
The HPG have a limited range. Otherwise, longer range on transmissions would be possible, which are limited to 50 light years. Also the description of the HPGs suggest they are point to point. Meaning you have to aim at the target. Part of why it is sooo difficult for the IS to take control of them and use them. The transmitters swing to different points regularly to transmit and receive.
The black boxes that were in use, never change frequencies, as shown with the attack on Luthien. The border boxes caught the transmission sent out and increased the speed to get it to the Outreach meeting. They said coding and shielding was being used to avoid issues if the combine got ahold of some of them. No where did they say they could change the freq. And the receiving end would need to as well, nullifying the entire network until ALL were changed.
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ghostrider
09/12/18 11:37 PM
66.74.61.223
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Sixth, No this would not mean all of them would strike!
Then why did the clans bother with agreeing to the invasion, as well as who would go? It was pushed thru when the Outbound Light was caught by the clans near their home worlds. The invasion was started to avoid the IS from invading their worlds. Why would you not hit an attacker with forces from all that stand to lose? They would not be after ONE clan at that point.
'The only thing that could bring all of them (The Home Clans) into the war is if you go to the Clan Home Worlds and attack one of the Clans that is not involved in the initial war.
Sixth, Politics – believing just one clans removal for the Inner Sphere is NOT believable. As Stated before with my WW2 analogy. Why just recapture Italy and allow Germany to control the remainder of Europe – it MUST BE the removal of all.
Contradiction in statements here. Might need to read what you type a little more carefully.
Seventh, What HPG messages? if Operation Serpent has not been dispatched upon the exodus road until AFTER the success of Operation Bulldog.
So you think that the forces in the IS would not send out a message saying the entire invasion corridor was under attack? A full 7 clans would not have sent anything, nor jumpships/warships leaving systems not sending out that information?
And the HPG statement was those worlds along the path to get there. They would send out information they were under assault.
And the Smoke Jaguars were hitting above the truce line as well. Which is why the attack was launched sooner. To stop the attacks, though the Falcons were not bound by Tukyyid. They were free to attack below the line.
The alt history stops when it is said the canon story line is said to be wrong or flawed. This is not alt, but bagging on the writers/developers. And I don't disagree with all of it. The issue is this is numbers being pushed into the canon that were not there. Then using that to say they should have done this or that.
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ghostrider
09/12/18 11:53 PM
66.74.61.223
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As for bringing in more forces we do have Fenrir (my Alt. Universe) Fighting in the Deep Periphery restricting these forces and diverting them to garrison their Supply Depos.
The numbers in the clan books was the invasion force, not all forces available to them. The PGC's would garrison those depots, which the frontline troops slammed your supply lines as well. The clans had the advantage of knowing where your supplies and factories are at, while you are searching for theirs, as each clan had their own lines. Hitting any one of them, would free them up to strike back. Thus, initiating the grand melee concept for defense of the home worlds.
Also, after Wolcott, the clans would never agree to not invade worlds again. Time limits would be placed on any challenges for those worlds. I would expect them to place additional conditions as well. Like not using those worlds to strike at other worlds. They might be slow to change, but they are not dead and stupid.
The clans already changed the initial bid for numbers in the IS when they activated the Steel Vipers and Nova Cats. Now that they failed in their time frame to take terra, would open up the other clans to start invasions on their own. The invasion clans would not weaken their forces to try and stop the others, but end up sending what they did have in a desperate race to Terra before the others could get involved. Becoming the Ilclan would mean they could order the other clans around. It would be worth losing your access to the home worlds to claim this prize. And even then, only stopping for supplies, as invading Terra is the only goal. This would be were clan Wolf's attention to supplies would give them the edge.
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Requiem
09/13/18 04:27 AM
58.175.193.140
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Consider reading the Wiki on Jump Points? Vast is an understatement.
As for the Black Box on Luthien – this is not evidence of a one frequency only Box it is just evidence that they knew the frequency on the day – A code book does comes along with the Box and can provide different codes and frequency of the day, so not a problem.
Sixth, There is no contradictions in statements – the same clans are being fought against as those that invaded so there is no basis for additional Clans being brought into the Counter offensive by the Inner Sphere.
Seventh, And as for a HPG message by Clan unit along their Exodus Road - what if they did another end run, bypassing the Clans exodus road altogether and devising one of their own?
No message – Surprise attack?
Thus no Clan message as none of their relay stations are being attacked and therefore a surprise attack once they reach the Clan Home Worlds.
As for the Jaguars attacking above the Line – the Jade Falcons were doing the same thing – all the Inner Sphere needs to do is ride out the attacks and counter attack with their existing forces whilst the new armies are being forged below the line … SOP … as discussed before. This is still not a valid enough reason to push the counter invasion forward to the year after the establishment of the Star League, the policy of building and defeating all the Inner Sphere Clans is still the best policy at this time by the Great Houses and Periphery States.
And no the Falcons were not free to hit below the line. They lost thus they are required to adhere to the terms. (Confusing it with the Grand Refusal by those Clans who did not participate and thereafter said because they did not participate they did not have to follow the rules of the outcome?)
Using Fenrir forces to hunt down Clan supply bases is a valid tactic – one that could provide the inner sphere with vast amounts or resources that were intended for the Clan Units. Striking at these forces would not in any way initiate a grand melee. And as stated previously most of the forces at these sites would be only enough to engage in a Trial - the Clans initially would not be suspecting an attack by Inner Sphere Forces. Plus it expands the Game into a more adventuress setting (something in my opinion the Cannon completely missed out on)
As for Steel Vipers and Nova Cats they were Reserve units to be allowed into the Invasion at the discretion of the Il-Khan. They were included in the original numbers – thus there is no change to the original Bid. Thus no new Clans are allowed into the Inner Sphere for a new Invasion Corridor.
Thus the Inner Sphere has a more robust and expansive military with more Omni’s and Warships et al by the time the 15 years nears completion – and with the introduction of the WOB into the Star League I am still convinced their shadow Units and their Technology will be integrated into the SLDF .
So this would now be, in my opinion, a more adventurous game than that originally conceived.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/13/18 03:53 PM
66.74.61.223
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Might need to reread the part that the border agents got ahold of the signal about Luthien. The fears that the combine would get a hold of one of the boxes was major. If you change freqs every day, that would not be the case. You would need to have the right frequency on when the signal gets to your position. So a message sent to the front lines would be received on different days. What good is that? You wouldn't send out a signal on different freqs, unless you had multiple units. You will miss messages because of the time differences.
And no. They would not have several boxes in one location. Even New Avalon wouldn't have more then maybe 2.
One statement says you must destroy all of them. The next is just the invading clans. There is a contradiction there.
Going outside of the exodus route would mean having all the data to do so with jumps. And that does nothing to remove forces in route on the road. It they had this data, then they would not have needed to get the road map. Just the destination location
This is still not a valid enough reason to push the counter invasion forward to the year after the establishment of the Star League
The League may not have lasted long after the initial agreement. And with the formation, all wanted to see results of the agreements. Hitting the clans before they could recover was the best choice. Then again, when was it supposed to go off? Only 2 houses had any sort of reason and the forces to even attempt this, and before the League reformed, were not helping each other. The refusal came from the leagues formation. So when was it scheduled for?
You can't push up something that doesn't exist.
And no the Falcons were not free to hit below the line. They lost thus they are required to adhere to the terms.
Best reread that. The Falcons took both objectives, with the wolves 1 win, 1 loss. In the books the Jade Falcons said they were not bound by the terms, but would follow it.
As for Steel Vipers and Nova Cats they were Reserve units to be allowed into the Invasion at the discretion of the Il-Khan. They were included in the original numbers – thus there is no change to the original Bid. Thus no new Clans are allowed into the Inner Sphere for a new Invasion Corridor.
So the vipers and nova cats did not get given worlds to help take out the FC/DC? The diamond sharks were not move to reserve status?
So only the initial 4 clans were ever in control of IS worlds?
They became active participants in the invasion. That means the bids were changed. And as per your argument, the PGCs were not part of the bid, so using them violated the bid. As pointed out, that isn't the truth, as the PGCs were allowed, but not to be used to take worlds.
If you need to change so much to make it more adventurous, then the imagination of the person running the campaign needs to improve. Simple raids, not the Fenrir crap, into the periphery could well have aided in the clans defeat at Tukiyyud. Or given one manufacturer the resources needed to build clan tech.
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Requiem
09/13/18 07:11 PM
58.175.193.140
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First, discussing frequencies not who owns what.
As per Operation Galahad if you have a single timepiece you can use this to either attack on a broad front at exactly the same time or switch a dial to change the frequency.
Second, Comprehension reading – go back and re-read where I state destroy them all. This is referring to all those Clans within the Inner Sphere who do not defect, so no contradiction.
Third, have a look at the Cannon map for Operation Serpent . With the roadmap all you need is a beginning and an end point. You do not have to follow it exactly.
Fourth, QUOTE: “The League may not have lasted long after the initial agreement”
Coalitions of different political and sometimes hostile forces have joined forces in the past to achieve joint political and military objectives – Have a look at the differences in the Allies during WW2 as an example.
Plus given time – they will learn to work together and this can only help the combined SLDF effectiveness whilst in combat.
As going too soon you cannot coordinate troops as effectively as they will still distrust each other.
This is why you have war games to build a trust and an effective / efficient fighting force - they need time to work out all the kinks when having fighting forces made up of different units from different Houses.
The re-formation of the Star League would have been formed soon after Tukayyid – as a political and military necessity or soon thereafter.
Battle of Tukayyid – Jade Falcon achieved a draw based upon briefly capturing Olalla and inflicting far greater losses than they took! – The battle in which Adin Pryde is killed in combat? or ....
The Great Refusal – 23 April 3060 – Jade Falcons Won against ComStar.
In which book and page does it state that they are not bound by the terms?
Re-read the Invasion Book?
Why have a ‘deep periphery zone’ if it is never used to its fullest?
Guerrilla tactics revolves around using what you have to achieve your goals, whilst at the same time taking weapons from the enemy (making friendly forces stronger whilst at the same time making the enemy weaker).
This is a valid strategy to achieve victory.
The use of which would have provided the game with an exciting new adventure akin to piracy on the high seas / wolf packs versus cargo fleets WW2.
If you do not like it that’s Ok with me, though, how many out there do like the idea and will introduce this into a future game?
In addition to the other strategies I have championed, these would have made the game more realistic and fun in comparison to a simple raid Cannon version of events.
What I am putting forward is an Alternate view that in my opinion will make for a more interesting and fun campaign of the Clan Invasion and the Inner Sphere’s response to said invasion.
This Story Arc should have been based upon WW2 premise. If it had then I believe the story would have been far more exciting and realistic than that of the cannon story in which you have to suspend belief multiple times and groan with absolute disbelief in one point (No goodies bag / souvenirs when returning from Clan Space!!!!!).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/13/18 10:50 PM
66.74.61.223
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First, discussing frequencies not who owns what.
As per Operation Galahad if you have a single timepiece you can use this to either attack on a broad front at exactly the same time or switch a dial to change the frequency
How does this solve the issue of a signal reaching out across the stars that isn't instantaneous, from reaching different places at different times? Changing freqs would mean you are more likely to miss the signal coming in, as you are not tuned to it.
And the DAVION border people picked up the message sent from Luthien, and fast tracked it to the meeting. The original signal would not reach there until a month later. Or so said in the story of them training on Outreach. Or did you miss that paragraph?
it MUST BE the removal of all.
Ok. Reread. So where does it say only the invasion clans?
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Requiem
09/14/18 03:30 AM
58.175.193.140
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Knowing the distance between the sender and receiver and the speed at which message is sent you can calculate the time form message sent and message received.
Thus, you know when to send the message so that the receiver will have their machine on to receive the message.
Thus increase in chance of message being received.
Simple mathematics really.
Did you ever think the message was transported from Luthien via JumpShip (via a Command Route) until it was close enough then send the message via Black Box at the final jump.
Or it could be the writers made a mistake regarding the mathematics / rules regarding the use of a Black Box.
Another writer’s ‘Oops’ moment.
Comprehension reading … reading the totality of a statement and coming to an understanding regarding that statement …
QUOTE “Sixth, Politics – believing just one clans removal from the Inner Sphere is NOT believable. As Stated before with my WW2 analogy. Why just recapture Italy and allow Germany to control the remainder of Europe – it MUST BE the removal of all”.
… just one Clans removal from the Inner Sphere is NOT believable ….. it MUST BE the removal of all.
So we are discussing planning the removal of all those Clans within the Inner Sphere and not taking a selective bite of information.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/14/18 11:32 AM
66.74.61.223
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From the context of the story, it sounds like they sent it from Luthien with a black box.
The point I was trying to make with the frequency changes is, that message would more then likely arrive at the border when the frequency was tuned elsewhere. Even just 4 frequencies puts it at a 75% chance of missing it.
There is nothing to suggest they had different frequencies, thought it is only implied they didn't.
Since you are talking faster then light transmissions, it would support a more limited frequency, or reliance on a carrier wave to move it.
To remove the threat of the clans, it would come to the logic all would have to be removed. The concept of you are with me, or against me comes to mind. Given the clanners thoughts of conquest, they would not be satisfied with not taking terra. The invasion would begin again, or do like the falcons did. Start taking other worlds, looking for fights.
And I haven't found the novel where Victor was talking to the grand council after destroying the Jaguars, where one of the Falcon khans said they were not bound by the truce. Victor said he could reform the task force in the IS and start dealing with the Falcons like they did the Jaguars. It was then, the Falcon Khan said they would honor the truce.
The book is buried in my garage.
And there are a lot of selective bites taken from the conversation. Some things seem to be common knowledge or taken for granted, and the point is lost or missed.
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Requiem
09/14/18 06:32 PM
58.175.193.140
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It could be that the Black Box contains a multiple frequency transmitter and a universal frequency receiver unit for all messages.
Yes I agree in the interim 15 years between the Invasion’s enforced estoppel and its resumption the Clans will begin battles again in the form of
• Clan Vs. Clan – Trials of Possession etc;
• Clan Vs. Inner Sphere – Conquest of worlds / Training new Sibko units (keeping the talons sharp) etc.
• Clan Vs. Insurgents – hunting partisans etc.;
The Book you are looking for is Price of Havoc (Twilight of the Clans VII) – Chapter 15 page 135 onwards – 25 April 3060 Hall of Khans Strana Mechty – This is the where Khan Vlad of the Wolves threated that after 7 years with the end of the Truce he would start an invasion toward Terra again and Victor threatened him back with reassembling his forces in the Free Rasalhague Republic and he can drive them from the Inner Sphere. So Wolves not Falcons.
Though would it not have been interesting to have a war where the Inner Sphere builds up its forces
• Removes those Clans who do not defect to the Star League from the Inner Sphere;
• Fights through the Deep periphery –then through Deep Space all the way to the Clan Home-worlds;
• Battle rages upon all of these worlds;
• Ending with the end of the Clans as they were – thus they become what they were supposed to be an Egalitarian Society etc or even the Clans retreat off world to become a nomadic tribe within Jumpships and warships
Fun had by all (except the remaining Clans!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/21/18 11:58 PM
66.74.61.223
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One thought came to mind about clan bondsmen. They do not have to accept, and some would suicide before becoming an IS lackey. They would consider this more of an honorable solution then fighting their trueborn brothers and sisters, with IS lords commanding them.
Thought about this when reading updated post on how the alt is supposed to go.
This would be more for warriors then non combat personnel. Not sure how much reliance on bondsman you are in mind.
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Requiem
09/22/18 03:09 AM
58.175.193.140
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If we look at Clans as a Cult (of which they are!), individuals that have been programmed can also be deprogrammed.
As discussed previously the Inner Sphere are utilizing Psy-Ops teams, one of their missions would be the deprogramming of former Clan personnel . Those who are considered at risk can be placed with a maximum security psychiatric hospital under heavy sedation until they can be deprogrammed or reprogrammed if that fails there are always other more drastic options.
I would therefore assume a percentage of trueborn will go through this procedure depending upon their Clan origin and their status (Scientist, labourer etc) – though as for Clan freeborn, their level of indoctrination would not be as severe – hence they, in all probability, could be indoctrinated into becoming part of the Inner Sphere.
Thus a majority of non-warrior / non-trueborn positions can be considered viable candidates …
eg. Professionals – engineers, medial, scientists etc
Non-professionals – labour for all professions etc.
This included those that work on / for their armaments - ‘Mechs, Fighters, Dropships, Jumpships, Warships etc.
These captured individuals could contribute to the welfare of the Inner Sphere throughout the 15 year truce period .
However – during this 15 year truce period how close will the Inner Spheres Academies come to a Clan Sibko’s training? Thus how many IS pilots gunnery / piloting will therefore be the same as a Clans Gunnery / piloting for a newly graduated pilot? Can we now assume the same? And once blooded?
Thus another good reason(s) to extend out the time period to near the end of the 15 years – how much former clan knowledge can be incorporated into the IS from these former Clan citizens?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
09/22/18 10:01 PM
58.175.193.140
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As discussed previously the complement of elemental forces within the invasion fleet, for any of the Clans, would not enable the majority of garrisons to be equipped with an adequate defensible security force.
Thus opening the majority of these garrisons to strikes by commando forces which could result in the subsequent capture of non-warrior support personnel, who were at the time assigned to these garrisons.
Utilization of Psy-Ops teams or even their own culture in utilizing ‘bondsman’ could also convince these personnel to agree to become part of the new Star League.
Or they could even have defected due the difference between the Clan’s Closed / sterilized and that of individuals life within one of the Houses’ more open / freedom societies.
With the integration of former Clan free-birth technicians and professionals into the Inner Sphere’s Star League and the few true-born warriors into the S.L.D.F. during the the short peace of 15 years one can only wonder how the Inner Sphere’s technology throughout all the industries could have been affected.
Increase understanding of how to …..
• Manufacture Clan weapons systems and omni-mech vehicles;
• Utilize sdvanced new engineering principles;
• Utilize advanced new medical principles;
All these and more could have been integrated throughout the Inner Sphere.
Plus with multiple war games the armies of each of the Great Houses could have learnt to work together against a common foe under the banner of the SLDF.
Plus new Inner Sphere RCTs / RACTs / pocket warships / warship fleets could have been established to rectify the imbalance between that of the Inner Sphere and that of the Clans.
Second generation Omni-mechs and omni-fighters could have been produced and entered into mass production.
Thus by the end of the short peace the Inner Sphere would have been in a more advantageous position to withstand / drive back any subsequent Clan Invasion from all the Inner Sphere Clans.
So why rush the invasion as per the Canon history? … as when you sit back and think about it rushing to destroy one single Clan or waiting, building, learning thereby allowing the SLDF to destroy all the Inner Sphere Clans (who do not change side) only works from the point of view of the writer / game developer in keeping a suitable number of combatants within the arena – it does not assist the House Lords ultimate political goal of removing all the Inner Sphere Clan forces and thereby returning their lost territory due to the Clan’s invasion.
As is the Canon version only helped the Draconis Combine and could the other houses really accept this as win for them? Would they not want their lost worlds also returned –in reality it should be a zero sum game – all or nothing!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/23/18 05:54 PM
66.74.61.223
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So why rush the invasion as per the Canon history?
Statements like this is why it sounds like bashing the writers.
Looking over what happens after the fact and coming up with ways it could have been done better, has been what armchair generals have been doing for years.
Not knowing the information at the time, is where some decisions come from.
One big thing that seems to be missed, is how do you assist your people behind clan lines, when you don't even know where they will be tomarrow? With the truce, this changes a little bit of it, but I did not see where it was said that if you attacked the clans in force, they would not nullify the truce and begin to advance again.
And the lack of knowledge of what forces they have, or have bid, much less if they were changed due to other factors comes into effect. You may well send in your fleets and elite soldiers, only to find out you are 3 jumps behind enemy lines, with no supplies what so ever.
Saying this or that should/shouldn't have happened with all the information after the fact does not change why things were done they way they were.
That is not saying there wasn't more then a few issue with it, but then I am not saying the way I want it to go is the only way it could/should have gone.
in keeping a suitable number of combatants within the arena – it does not assist the House Lords ultimate political goal of removing all the Inner Sphere Clan forces and thereby returning their lost territory due to the Clan’s invasion.
This part of the statement is part of the issue. The writers want to sell their product. If there is no wars or reasons to go to war, then you should just close up shop.
And as said before. The civil war aspect of what is normally left is not appealing to any of those I know that play the game. A simple bad roll could very well cause you to fight your own family, IE they joined up with the enemy. With having an outside threat, you remain pretty focused on them being the enemy, and not family or the government you like.
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Requiem
09/23/18 08:43 PM
58.175.193.140
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The decision to counter attack should be based upon pragmatism and politics – what is achievable – Given time what could be achievable would align with the goals / politics of each Great Houses requirements – the safety of the Inner Sphere by removal of the Inner Sphere Clans.
How can you live next to a state who believes that their only reason for living is that of proving themselves in war? You will never feel safe (The overall safety of the realm and the people who live in the realm) until they are relocated elsewhere.
Assisting partisan / commando forces – this is why they have access to Black Box Technology and pre-arranged drop points – have a look at WW2 French Partisan activities.
So, given the rebuilding has been competed, what does it matter if the truce is nullified if the time remaining is so short as to be considered negligible?
Again Partisan activities would have kept CIC notified as to any changes in garrison strength on a world by world basis.
Writing from the point of view of what the writers want in the future (more wars) is a most imbecilic strategy to keeping the Franchise viable. Establishing a positive, exciting and believable story with the minimum of errors is what will keep the Franchise viable, together with a minimum of bi-monthly novels and expansion packs (anything less than this and the Franchise can be considered to be circling the drain)
Civil war with the Clans – 1.The war of Reeving; 2. Clans do not have families (fostering) – it all comes down to how it is packaged, if it is done correctly a civil war will succeed – have a look at the American Civil War as an example of how a backstory could be included.
So how many additional RCTs and RACTs could each Great House create during the duration of 15 years of peace?
Could one RCT and RACT be established per year per each Great House?
Could these units be outfitted with predominately / all omni weapons technology?
Could their training be such that these new units will become the SLDF’s spear point for the coming counter assault –ie. special forces with anti-Clan training?
And how many new Jumpships, Pocket-warships, Warships, Aerospace Carries could be manufactured?
What I am suggesting therefore is the same as America and Russia during WW2 – whereby the entire industry of the Inner Sphere repurposed for armaments in one way or another to defeat the Inner Sphere Clans and with the possibility of striking a mortal blow to those that remained on the Clan Home worlds.
Does somewhere in the vicinity of 60 to 75 new RCTs and 60 to 75 new RACTs as well seem plausible total? (12 plus for each Great house and something less for the minor Houses)
And with WOB’s 13 + Shadow units as well? Who’s transformable ‘mechs become the advance recon element of the invading forces.
(How many would have preferred the alternative use of these forces in a war against the Clans rather than that of the madness the Jihad became – and all without WMDs?)
So creating House units that contain advanced WOB technology could be possible – who would be up for a campaign like this?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/23/18 09:33 PM
66.74.61.223
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First off, without knowing the end result, how could you say things would have gotten better for the IS? Because they reformed the league?
How do you know the attack on the Jaguars wasn't to prove the League was a real entity? That they had to do something, otherwise worlds and even complete regions may well have left. Only the fact you have the end result and working backwards.
Pragmatic? Removing one of the worse of the invading clans and stopping their forward motion isn't realistic or reasonable?
If not for the Saber Cat incidence at Turtle Bay, which clan should they have gone after? The FRR was basically destroyed. So the most to gain from this would be them. But do you take on the Wolves or the Bears? And with that, do you trust the Jaguars or Falcons to stay out of it?
Just because the Dragoons said they wouldn't aid each other, doesn't mean it was written in concrete and should have been believed by all. The fact they were from the clans would make it suspect.
Now being 2 or more jumps behind the 'front' lines with the clans, how do you think the IS would be able to keep supplying partisans and such? Why would you think there would not be an increased force on those worlds as they sent in units, like the IS did throughout their history, to end them? Then jump your supplies directly into the hands. Logic? Or working backwards from the end result and modifying things from there?
what does it matter if the truce is nullified if the time remaining is so short as to be considered negligible?
Would you trust someone that broke the truce, even if it was only days remaining? And without knowing what had happened, do you really think the clans weren't getting ready for renewal of combat? Maybe even broken the truce with invasions.
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ghostrider
09/23/18 09:47 PM
66.74.61.223
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Writing from the point of view of what the writers want in the future (more wars) is a most imbecilic strategy to keeping the Franchise viable
So a war game should not have wars?
They screwed up with the FC, and didn't fix it. The most logical thing for the 'story' would be cession of all wars with only border raids (pirate attacks) being left. Then the moronic repeat of civil wars. Where is that better?
Again. The lack of any free people around would not have shown the others there is something different. 250 years of each generation being born into the society as it was, tends to destroy the ideas of freedom. So really. How many people in the clans would believe an IS person? They would lie to you, in order to avoid becoming useful to the clans.
The American Civil War had nations around to help both sides in the fight. There were examples of both styles of government, and were not COMPLETELY separated from any outside contact with the masses. Only the few collecting data on the IS would have seen otherwise. Anyone found releasing that information would have been killed for violating the clans policies.
So how many additional RCTs and RACTs could each Great House create during the duration of 15 years of peace?
Supposition as there are no real hard numbers on how many units can be made, or people trained. And with the next statement, the clans could well be training to counter the IS as well. Given they were running about half the forces and still beating the hell out of the IS, once they dropped the one on one, it would have gone far worse for the IS.
whereby the entire industry of the Inner Sphere repurposed for armaments in one way or another
Why would they not be doing this to begin with, during the succession wars? Figure that into this statement and answer this on your own.
Again. No one knew WOB was doing anything besides fighting Comstar. And in that same vein, how did they know WOB was not going to start a war as their backs were turned. Oh yeah. Knowing the outcome of the time line, then changing facts in there to help move it away from canon.
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Requiem
09/23/18 11:59 PM
58.175.193.140
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Things would have gotten better …
1. We have a Star League with a central Authority – the former position of First Lord no longer exists – so why have a succession war? We now have a UN Security Council type of arrangement.
2. All parties are sharing information / conducting joint war games – the threat of war within the IS has been reduced as the Great Houses militaries have deescalated the threat of war by working together.
3. Increased Trade Relations – reduces the threat of war.
Prove the League was real to the Clans …. It would not matter what was done, crusader Clans would always view it as a shame. Wardens …. Well some of them did join ….
Pragmatism and Politics both combine here to achieve the overall goal of Inner Sphere Security with the removal of those Clans who are too obstinate to realize the reformation of the Star League has occurred.
What is the Inner Spheres ultimate goal when dealing with the clans is it to just stop the Inner Sphere invasion permanently? If so this can only be dome with their removal – nothing else would be considered acceptable.
Supplying Partisans is quite elementary – Pirate points and the use of non-standard jump points (Theodore in the war of 39 with the Ghost Regiments) there is no way the Clans could patrol all of these – it is estimated that for every one world on the map there should be about 1,000 other jump points close to this on. So not a problem, the Cans just do not have a sizeable military force to adequately garrison all the worlds adequately. In addition they are not trained for guerrilla warfare.
The 15 year truce – think about Chamberlain waiving his piece of paper and declaring peace in our time – the same goes for the Inner Sphere’s truce with the Clans.
It is in the Inner Spheres best interest to drag out the peace as long as possible so as to rebuild and rearm. As everyone known that one second after the end of the truce the Clans will attack – it is just in their nature to do so.
QUOTE: So a war game should not have wars?
Missing the point as to why societies go to war and how often they go to war. A cleaver writer knows how to write the situation so as to obtain a war.
Civil War is between - Inner Sphere, Dark Caste and Wardens versus Crusaders
Supposition,
How close wold the Inner Sphere Technology be to that of the Clans by the end of the 15 years – 60-80%. Thus their superiority in technology becomes severely reduced by the time of the counter attack.
The Clans only accept the 0.01% to become warriors from their population and the majority of these are true borrn. Thus the number of potential future warriors are already or have just been born and entered a Sibko training program for a war in 15 years time.
If increased numbers are required these warriors will not be available until about 17-18 years from the initial start of the truce.
Whereas the Inner Spheres Population can accommodate the numbers required to make 150 new RCTs / RACTs
Plus strategies in educating military personnel have improved to be on par with the Clans.
Plus the inner Spheres entire manufacturing capability wold be 100 to 200 times greater than that of the Clans – if this was totally transferred to armaments production how can the Clans attempt to keep up?
As for the Clans running only half of their units – they can only use those that are within the Inner Sphere – noting that has occurred to date has allowed the Clan Home World Clans to participate.
As for the Great Houses not utilizing their entire industry for armaments – this has only occurred due to times of extreme peril – like WW2; and now the Clan Invasion – it has become a time when the need has arisen due to scale of the threat – before it was just the Succession War but now it is a time of unparalleled danger due to the ferocity of the Clans and the technological difference between the two.
With the invasion of Terra and the changes made to the rearmament factories within the Free Worlds League’s the Inner Sphere (via their spies) would have an understanding as to what the WOB was up to and with their membership into the Star league it would be expected that they wold share some of their technology with that of the other members (Just like the FC shared the omni Firestarter with the DC ect.)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/24/18 03:47 AM
66.74.61.223
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The canon version has a first lord, which changes every so often.
Never heard of a single war games performed by the IS that was more then FS/LC. No League ones. So please put up the reference to one. It may well have been missed.
And I didn't hear much about trade relations, except the FWL supplying more weapons of war. But again. May have missed that information.
The clans knew the IS could not hold the League together. And they didn't. They also knew that the IS houses could not cooperate for very long as well. The long bloody history of the IS shows that.
And yet the fact that most of the population was not going to upset the clanners, as they punished people at random until those that were acting against them were brought forth. The Jaguars were killing people after someone bombed a restaraunt with some clanner in it. Not many are going to resist that, as the clanners were not known at that time.
Missing the point as to why societies go to war and how often they go to war. A cleaver writer knows how to write the situation so as to obtain a war.
Societies go to war for the same reasons. Greed. Those in power want something, and send out the troops to get it. Some cover it in other things, but as was said. One person's freedom fighter, is another persons terrorist.
The best cover is a good offense is the best defense. Hit them before they hit you.
The clans do accept freeborns into the military, and they could very well allow those that failed, a second chance. Even the solahma units could be sent to the front lines.
They probably wouldn't if the IS did not do the full assault on all the clans in the IS.
Again, failure to understand, you can NOT change all factories to military output. Revolts will happen very quickly, especially on worlds far behind the lines. Otherwise, there would never have been any civilian factories in the succession wars.
With the invasion of Terra and the changes made to the rearmament factories within the Free Worlds League’s the Inner Sphere (via their spies) would have an understanding as to what the WOB was up to and with their membership into the Star league it would be expected that they wold share some of their technology with that of the other members (Just like the FC shared the omni Firestarter with the DC ect.)
Gotta love this one. The IS spies in WOB would be able to tell the houses what WOB was up to, yet could not find the hidden worlds as well as even find out they had the hidden forces? The fact Comstar had mechs for ages, and the IS only found out about them during the 4th war.
So these spies are telepathic? Is the 'master' supposed to tell them what he has planned, and they believe him?
Given the history of the IS, the houses would more then likely believe WOB about to attack Comstar or the other houses. It was after all, a military coupe when they broke away, and took Terra. Why would you believe they were going to be helping?
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Requiem
09/24/18 05:04 AM
58.175.193.140
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First, this is an Alternate History
Therefore as discussed previously the Cannon idea of having a First Lord for the resurrected Star league has been discounted. In all likelihood a council of Lords (similar to the UN Security Council) would take place, where one member has one vote and majority rules.
Second, as for war games between the houses, yes the only one that has occurred is that of the FS and LC – this is the reason why new ones are required so that the majority of the units can coordinate (and this will take time to ensure a high degree of battlefield effectiveness).
Third, the FWL were supplying battlefield refit packages – with the assistance of the WOB.
As for the clans knowing the Star League would fall, sorry but this is not correct, as if it is why would the Bears and the Cats join?
As for retaliatory reprisals against civilians – are we back to Russia, Poland, France and Rome of WW2? And how did that work out? The resistance went on … the more you tighten your grip the more will hate and loathe the occupation … yes, some will collaborate but how many will fight back? Time to re-read about partisan activities within France and Vietnam?
Have a look at the TV series ‘The Expanse’ – this may provide ideas regarding the start of a war and how diplomacy is used.
Yes, Clans some of the Clans do accept free-born into their military, the question is how many?
The answer however is an incredibly small number – a number that would not affect the overall size of the military.
The Clans military size is dependent upon the size of their maturation chambers to produce sibkos – their training then reduces this number until only a few remain. Thus the overall size of any Clan is pretty much fixed to a pre-determined level. Any serious change to this will take an additional 20 to 25 years to have the flowthrough from birth to trial of position to have an effect upon the overall size of any Clan’s operating size. That is unless they accept more free-births into their units.
The Inner Sphere however can accept increased numbers into their academies to drastically increase the size of their military over a short 5 to 10 year program.
This difference in how individuals are selected and trained for the military will have a major effect upon the size of any future fighting force. That is the Inner Sphere can produce massive new units easily while the Clans are still ordering their scientists and technicians to make new canisters for their breeding program.
As for spies – they may be or may not be in the WOB. But you can bet they would be in the FWL citizens/ factories / government - reports are made, people talk – information is gathered.
As for the Hidden Worlds only the top echelon (and those who operated their Jump-ships) within the WOB knew about these – so an IS spy would have had to have been very lucky to find out about these.
Remember why the master made these shadow forces in the first place – if the WOB was given membership to the Star League – what would he have done – kept them secret or integrate them into the SLDF to destroy the Clans?
He still could have kept the hidden worlds secret – the Houses' spy networks would be looking for a hidden facility(s) upon a world within the FWL, where they would assume they are being manufactured. A carefully established double blind could even provide credence to this hypothesis, thus providing a level of security to the Hidden Worlds.
No the Great Houses would not believe WOB will attack ComStar – they are both now part of the Star League and the FWL would have provided assurances this would not happen at this time.
In the future after the Clans are dealt with then yes there could be a war between ComStar and WOB.
But during the short peace no – we hang separately or we hang together – all hands on deck to repel borders situation.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/24/18 05:12 AM)
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ghostrider
09/24/18 12:04 PM
66.74.61.223
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The freeborns and even the failed trueborns would start showing up in the military in greater numbers when things started going badly for the clans. The fact they have warriors that could work, just didn't make the grade at the time would be able to swell their numbers.
The concept of the Star League failing is the arrogance of the clans. Only they could build a lasting League. Anything the IS did, would fail. Now there are exceptions to this, but not many.
The Inner Sphere however can accept increased numbers into their academies to drastically increase the size of their military over a short 5 to 10 year program.
Without a draft, the IS could well be at the maximum for those wanting to join as it is. And we know the training facilities were maxed out before the clans wiped out the Blackjack combat college. Otherwise, why would you need the training units on worlds? Aeropilots are the hardest to train. And just how many people want to be one? That may be an issue with the large fighter units.
As a side note, the DC was having issues with getting people to join the military. They had the equipment to let the soldiers use. That is why they went to the yakuza. For the personnel. Granted the comstar equipment helped.
The worlds the WOB run, were in insurrections. So with that, it would lead to most thinking WOB was a petty dictatorship, that oppresses all that don't fall in with their plans. That speaks louder then anything the leaders might say.
As this discussion is dealing with the initial invasion and beyond, the houses did believe WOB would continue their attacks on Comstar. Otherwise, they would never have started with the Terra invasion.
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Requiem
09/24/18 05:47 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: The freeborns and even the failed trueborns would start showing up in the military in greater numbers when things started going badly for the clans.
Sorry No, remember the end of battle upon Huntress when failed true-born were offered to increase the strength of the dwindling Jaguar forces? They were refused point blank –only those who had passed their trial of position would be considered acceptable warriors.
Thus for Clan militaries increasing their numbers by accepting failed warriors wold not ever occur as only warrior caste personnel are to be considered acceptable to fight for their Clan – all others are unworthy.
The concept that only the Clans can re-establish the Star League comes back to Warden Vs. Crusader philosophy – however, with the acceptance of even one Clan into the Star league this action legitimises the reformed Star League, they can rant all they like but it will not change the fact that one of their own sees this act as legitimate.
QUOTE: Without a draft, the IS could well be at the maximum for those wanting to join as it is.
Sorry No, what is the population of the inner sphere and how many apply for access to an academy each year? Say one in every thousand or even ten thousand are accepted could be a realistic figure – thus if you increase this figure even slightly this will swell the Inner Spheres military pilots of Mechs, Power Armour, Aerospace Pilots, Infantry, Armour, and Naval personnel over a short period of time.
What is discussed as ‘maxed out training facilities’ refers to the number of slots open to become a cadet – not the number of applying for a position within an academy.
Thus, if the number of slots per academy are increased you will get more cadets and the flowthrough of more robust military within ten years.
As for the Yakuza – this was back in 39 not in 52 onwards – as a side note the DC could not use DCMS for these new units as they would have become known to the FC very quickly. Only by utilizing pilots outside the DCMS could these units remain hidden for as long as they did.
It was not a question of available people it was about using people who are not on the radar of the FC spy network within the DC – as unproductive and criminal elements can easily hide within a vast society and are not readily visible unless you are actively looking for them.
WOB are dictators upon worlds within the FWL and Terran system?
Sorry no I don’t believe this, in the FWL during 3052 they are seen as a quasi religious order who are running the HPG grid and assisting with administrating upgrades to their military industrial complexes.
On Terra – maybe - they are restricting the amount of information provided but what about the day to day freedoms of the people?
But will this stop their ascension to the ranks of the Star League when the FWL nominate them for membership – I do not think so otherwise they would never have allowed the Capellans a seat if they were basing membership upon ethical concerns.
Since when have ethical concerns stopped a countries membership into an political organisation that’s primary mission is the peaceful unification of all?
The Terran invasion was due to the original ComsStar rift – and even if it did occur it still would not have stopped their membership into the Star League, politically the Great Houses would have just overlooked this as membership is more important at this time than that of who controls Terra.
It is just not in their interests , at this time, to unravel the Star League by humiliating the FWL when they put the WOB’s membership forward for a vote. The rest of the Inner Sphere still needs the FWL’s military industrial complexes and foundries to assist them with battlefield weapons packages, regiments of mechs, a large navy contingent etc.
In all reality anything short of an act of genocide by the WOB at this stage would not have stopped their membership into the Star League – the rest of the Leagues members need to keep the FWL agreeable to their requests even if it does mean allowing the WOB as a member to the League.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/24/18 07:50 PM)
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ghostrider
09/25/18 02:16 AM
66.74.61.223
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The Jaguars saying no to anything other then trueborns that pass their tests is one thing. Not all clans were as strict. Now I am not saying any failed warriors would be let in, but those that failed their test because they were defeated before taking down one mech might be retried. In the book where Phelan becomes a warrior, it said alot of failed warriors came about as they tried to take down multiple mechs at one time, and were defeated before they took down even one. This is not saying those the flushed out before they even got into a mech/fighter/armor would be accepted.
As for the academy. No where is it written that you have to attend an academy to be in the military for the IS. It is just those that do, tend to start off higher in command, as well as normally better skills.
as a side note the DC could not use DCMS for these new units as they would have become known to the FC very quickly.
Failure to understand honor? The ghost regiments could not be DCMS, as it would insult all the warriors in the military to have yakuza being branded as honorable warriors.
It looks like you forgot WHY Theodore brought them in. They could not bring in enough people to fill the gaps in their military. Granted, most had some training in mechs, so that was probably a big bonus reason.
The WOB issue were happening shortly after then went into the FWL. As this is what history the IS leaders had to go by at the time, that is why they would not believe them.
Since when have ethical concerns stopped a countries membership into an political organisation that’s primary mission is the peaceful unification of all?
The current UN does today. I will grant you, most of those are third world countries, that don't have much of what anyone wants, but it is still there.
The original invasion of Terra by WOB was greed. Those that wanted it, came up with a reason, that others followed. With that, and their history up until that point, it would have been prudent to tell the FWL that WOB needed to improve it's track record before being let into the League. Other then running the coms in the FWL and possibly CC, what else did they have to offer? The hidden forces?
They violently attack comstar during the time the clans were a serious threat. That looks more like destabilizing efforts to defeat the clans, not help that.
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Requiem
09/25/18 06:18 AM
58.175.193.140
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Can you provide book and page number as to where a Clan allowed a non-warrior caste access to a ‘Mech, Elemental Suit, Aerospace fighter etc. – as this goes completely against Kerensky’s rules.
As for the chance of a second trial of position to my knowledge this was only considered with regard to Aiden Pride (Jade Falcon) – a one off. Is there evidence this was allowed thereafter if the Khan of the Clan agreed to it? (Book, page number please)
Most Mech-warriors, Aerospace Pilots, Dropship Crew, Warship Crew were via an Academy.
Yes, there are ways around this – Hanse Davion’s Mech-warrior training experiment comes to mind.
However this does not exclude the fact that with regards to the two different methods used between the Inner Sphere and the Clans. The Inner Sphere has the more flexible method of increasing their numbers rapidly (5 to 10 years) to the extent they could easily add 75 plus new RCTs and 75 RACTs to their TO&E. Whereas the Clans would require 20 to 30 years to achieve the same results (this is also dependent upon the number that pass / survive their trial of position – a more onerous test than that the Inner Sphere have – written / practical exam only (ie. no one dies!))
Sorry to disagree but I stand by my original post – Theodore-Sama brought the Yakuza in to the fold and gave them Star League era mechs as a way to hide these new units. Yes, he could have used DCMS for this but this would have drawn the unwanted attention of MIIO etc.
Yes, regular DCMS Samurai view them with no respect whatsoever, however the point is mute Theodore has spoken, thus all arguments end. (that is unless the samurai who disagrees wants to leave the DCMS and become a Ronan or commit harakiri)
Politics is not about believing people it is about finding an effective solution to a problem.
Problem: Clan Invasion – An effective Counterattack.
Solution: Star League Defence Force – rebuilding existing forces with advanced tech.; establishing new forces with new onmi-tech etc.
How: A united Inner Sphere Front against the Clans (SLDF) – this must includes the FWL and by proxy the group they have requested to be part of Star League – WOB.
To have the FWL you have no choice but accept WOB it is a package deal – the SLDF needs the FWL and its foundries and Navy – and they need the FWL to be a part of the re-formed Star League, the remaining members have no choice but to accept the package deal to achieve victory of the Clans and call themselves the reformed Star League.
This is like WW2 – America, England, Russia – there was an incredible amount of animosity between the three major countries and the three leaders but they had to put up with each other in order to achieve victory over Germany.
QUOTE: The current UN does today
Seriously? Read United Nations Security Council Resolution 702 on Wiki.
I would like to answer this in full but it would in all probability contravene the politics rule.
As for WOB attacking ComStar during the 15 year truce or during the counter attack – I am not convinced this would occur (plus the SLDF can separate the two if necessary – one to the Falcon Zone and the other to the Jaguar Zone).
Though one of them (either ComStar or WOB) may allow the other too take the brunt of the battle with the Clans in order to preserve their units for the future war to come.
As after the counter attack war ends, when the Clans are removed from the Inner Sphere, in all likelihood I would believe it to be the other way around ComStar will look at attacking WOB to get Terra Back.
Thus if the WOB military is numerically depleted compared to ComStar this could be all the reason ComStar needs in order to reclaim Terra from WOB.
And WOB may know this, thus they would want ComStar to take the brunt of the battles in order to retain Terra.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/25/18 12:29 PM
66.74.61.223
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Any technician has access to them. Some would have to have some skills in piloting and shooting, otherwise some things could not be done correctly.
One specific one, was Kai Liao, and piloting an elemental suit that he was not trained to use. Interesting that he was better then some born to use them. He is not part of the clans, so not part of the warrior caste. He was a trained mechwarrior, so there is some leeway here.
Another example is the scientist castes people that the ruling class warriors did not know about. The ones that swelled the Falcons ranks.
Most Mech-warriors, Aerospace Pilots, Dropship Crew, Warship Crew were via an Academy.
If true, then that explains WHY the IS could not rebuild or increase their forces much or quickly.
Theodore-Sama brought the Yakuza in to the fold and gave them Star League era mechs as a way to hide these new units
The ghost regiments or the mechs? Because not all got League mechs, and more then a few made it into the DCMS at that time.
They could still have the FWL in the renewed League, but have kept the WOB from becoming a member. As they were already part of the FWL for on intents, allowing them their own seat would weaken the others votes, buy allowing the FWL another vote with the WOB.
Politics is not about believing people it is about finding an effective solution to a problem.
There is currently a president in office that cult of personality is why they are still there. He is basically destroying that countries ties to allies, and trying to bring them close to their 'enemy'.
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ghostrider
09/25/18 12:36 PM
66.74.61.223
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As for WOB attacking ComStar during the 15 year truce or during the counter attack – I am not convinced this would occur (plus the SLDF can separate the two if necessary – one to the Falcon Zone and the other to the Jaguar Zone).
How do you split this if WOB is the political enemy of Comstar? I really don't see WOB listening to anyone on who or where to hit, especially since you said they didn't have military forces when the split happened. Which is wrong, as they used their own forces to hit Terra.
So where you got the information that WOB did not have military forces during the split, it is wrong.
Now if you are talking near the end of the truce, then WOB may deal with one clan or the other, but there is an issue with that. Both FC and DC were not friendly to WOB when they first came out. I doubt they were willing to let them into their borders for a long while. Which is part of why I don't think they would be allowed into the League as their own entity.
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Requiem
09/25/18 05:01 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes, Clan technicians have access to ‘Mechs, Elemental Suits and Aerospace Fighters, however, this is a far leap from utilizing them in combat with the support of their Clan’s Khan.
Book, page number – where and when did this occur please?
QUOTE: the scientist castes people that the ruling class warriors did not know about. The ones that swelled the Falcons ranks.
Can you please elaborate further.
QUOTE: …. then that explains WHY the IS could not rebuild or increase their forces much or quickly.
Sorry No, an academy education does not slow down the rebuilding process it has the opposite effect it increases the number of people that can be assigned – thus the rebuilding phase is actually reduced.
As for the Ghost Regiments and their ‘Mechs – both needed to be hidden initially – only after the war of 39 were these advanced machines dispersed into the DCMS. Otherwise the idea of having a hidden fighting force becomes mute – the FC’s mechwarriors would have been prepared for these former Star League ‘Mechs upon the battlefield.
The politics statement as given may contravene the politics rule - suggest removing it.
Even if WOB did not have / had a small remnant of former ComGuard personnel due to the division. By the time of their admittance into the Star League they did have an effective military – How else could they have captured Terra and held it from any counter attack by ComStar?
These two forces can be split easily by the orders they are given and the objectives they are assigned.
Both ComStar’s ComGuard and the WOB can be considered to be ‘a professional military force’, that are now a part of the overall SLDF.
Strategy sessions will take into consideration everyone’s considerations, however once orders are given must be obeyed.
The same issue must therefore be considered with regards to former Federated Suns and the Draconis Combine / Capellan (if they exist!) Units. There is animosity there as well.
This is why the issue of multiple war games between units of different Houses (etc.) is so important. They need to come to rely and have trust in each other, and respect each other’s strengths and discard any previous animosity they have towards each other.
Thus the need for time to ensure this is minimised (I doubt it will ever be fully removed).
The entire SLDF will be needed – it is not about who likes who, or who trusts who – it is about forming a hammer and anvil upon which the Clans will shatter.
As I have repeatedly stated before the WOB and FWL are a package deal you cannot have one without the other – No matter how much other Houses have an issue with the WOB they do not have a choice politically but to accept them into the Star League.
You cannot have a legitimate Star League that excludes the FWL.
The SLDF needs every unit and every piece of armament they can get from the FWL.
The Star League does not have a choice but to accept the WOB when the FWL nominates them for admittance!!!!!!!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/25/18 05:42 PM)
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