ghostrider
08/15/20 12:25 PM
66.74.60.165
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During the initial invasion, there was no shopping. It was all imported. Which still was happening late into the invasion.
You sent out a warrior or several to give the local liason the order, and they got it. Part of why comstar was important to the clans to keep the population from getting antsy. So actually reading what is there, shows how the clans got things done. Comstar was their shoppers. Logic 101.
Spartans did not get brainwashed like clan warriors did. Not saying the training wasn't brutal, but they did have a choice in what they did. The warrirors in history had outside influence letting them know how others lived and did things. Not so with the clans. Nothing changes the fact that pure isolation is something those on Terra have ever dealt with. It allowed the dictatorship to rise and keep their people from knowing otherwise.
And there is the stupidity of the lack of continuity. They can find out where a single missile was fired from, but not see a mech at over a klick properly. The story of Phelan capturing the prince of the FRR. A small rock was thrown and the prince vaporized it. That should never have shown up on his sensors. But given some things, the balloon would be hotter then the air around it, so thermal would show up. How well, that I don't know.
But the game seems to have perfect defenses around some bases, yet those that should, the enemy can walk right in and take down what ever they want. Consistency is lacking.
This also explains why they got rid of cruise missiles. No way to detect them, so they would be used to hit bases right before a major attack.
Oh yeah. The sensors have missed dropships coming in as well.
By the way the developers had set up the numbers, the clans would only stay in the IS as long as the warships were able to stop a major counter assault. But the IS ship numbers were set to make sure that didn't happen. So the clans supply issues would have prevented the push they had, if not for the magical abilities to get to and on worlds without the locals finding them. There are a few things that could counter this some, but not enough to make a difference.
You did see where those losing the bid, would have immediately called for a trial of refusal, and fight to prevent their weapons from being removed and added to those that won the invasion rights? Basically negating the entire bid.
It was not so simple as you want it to sound like there. The weapons would not be swapped just because.
Did you forget the clans did fight amongst themselves for a lot of reasons? They would ABSOLUTELY fight to keep their weapons on their units, as it would mean they could not even attempt to bid in any more. No way to fight without them. And swapping them around to allow it would mean bidding resources you don't know if you have or not. Your weapons want to Alpha Trinary. They are stuck on the world as you move on. How do you bid in the next assault when your weapons are in Alpha? See the problem here?
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ghostrider
08/15/20 12:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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Another thought on weapons swaps.
Do you honestly think that one warrior would allow another warrior to get reputation at their expense?
They would rather have the weapons destroyed, then to have someone else use them and gain the rep. This is the ultimate oneupsman contest. They will NOT help another get the better of them.
Tyranny of distance is something you didn't care about when saying the FS should have sent all of their forces to the clan line. In fact, you said it would be easy. Selective use of such things shows favoritism, as well as NOT wanted to keep it logical and consistent. The story line concentrated on things other then the clans not being able to deal with worlds they took or not having enough supplies to continue the major advancements. With the exception of allowing Clan Wolf to get ahead. How exciting would a story be, if the invader had to stop all forward motion for a few months, while they got supplies? No fighting on either side. Just sit and wait for the hammer to fall? Someone said the story had to be exciting. This wouldn't be it.
If they had anti armor rounds, then the clans would not have been so much of a threat. But then the entire history of the game would have to be thrown out, and the current time line wouldn't exist. Mechs would not be the master of the battlefield, as infantry would be able to snipe them from a distance and kill pilots without them even knowing they were being shot at. Mech armor is the same thing vehicle and elemental armor is. Otherwise, the same weapons would affect them differently.
So cheap weapons are the only thing anyone but elite units get, and even then, elite units seem to lack.
It is stupid, but again, nerfs have to happen to keep mechs the main ground figure.
I think if this was done with consistency, elementals would become the new master of the battlefield, as they don't lack things like having to destroy a building in order to get to those inside. More elementals can fit into a dropship, and are more likely to survive emergency crashes.
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Requiem
08/15/20 09:03 PM
1.158.133.26
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You mean having him watch rituals of bidding, as well as how each clan operates isn't overt?
This is where a unified Clan response is required, are they either,
Egocentric – and have a driven desire to demonstrate their superiority – such as with Focht in allowing him to witness their rituals etc; or
Non-responsive / secretive – the average bondsman who have been taken in battle by an Inner Sphere force.
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Historical information isn't what was the topic.
Really ….?
In explaining who the Clans are requires a comprehensive understanding of their history – post exodus ……to now
This information will be invaluable to psy-ops units.
Other issues – Sibko and graduation numbers – a complete understanding of their traditions etc.
I think you have forgotten but if the Dragoons are not completely honest and provide all the information to every question asked of them by the House Lords what do you think the all the Great Houses will do to them ?
At this point in time the Dragoons will be placed on the front lines to fight the Clans at a minimum – they must prove their loyalty in battle to the IS.
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Victor's omni is something that proves the Dragoons did make clan tech.
If this was accurate then every Great House would demand the technology to build their own ….
It may be easier to say that they have them in their supply depot. within the deep periphery.
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the IS should have been making clan tech, and the expense reason is bs.
I agree that the IS should have the capability of manufacturing Clan Technology …. Someone forgot to remind TPTB as to the expense of the Manhattan Project in producing “the gadget / bomb” during the WW2 – at a time where money to projects etc was extremely important.
The same must be applied here.
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Another example of not reading the actual books. Sibko numbers have constantly changed during the history of the clans. They get adjusted for things like heavy losses, or even light losses.
So? …. Still requires a turnaround time of 18-20 years for the flow through to be noticed on the front line, or do the Clans have a way of increasing growth speed from infant – child – adolescent – young adult …….
Overall sibko numbers can change – graduate numbers can change – but growth speed has yet to change ….
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'broad strokes'
And yet those ‘broad strokes’ have been recognized as Canon – Adam and the entire Complement of the Strikers have been recognized as canon ….
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Comprehension seems to have failed, so time to educate you on things.
First the Dragoons were so respected by all the Great Houses that they could call a conference and all the leaders WOULD COME TO THEIR WORLD to discuss an issue that THEY HAD NO KNOWLEDGE ON, and DURING AN INVASION OF THE IS.
You do understand the political power this requires to pull something like this off?
So what was their orders provided by the Khan?
Ensuring the security of the IS from the machinations of the Clans – the Warden’s view from that of the Crusader view.
So how do you best achieve this?
Demonstrating the Clan’s structure of fighting units through Natasha’s Black Widows on its own?
Could the Dragoons have had a conference prior to this ? In all probability yes;
Could the Dragoons have supplied Onmni Tech to IS so that they could have produced Mechs similar to those in TRO 3058 yes – would these have unduly affected the IS power structure if all of them have access to the same tech at the same time – as it now comes down to who can manufacture the most within a short period of time – so no I doubt that the ultra negative oint expressed would have initiated a war as it would require 20 to 30 years minimum to effectively build up a critical mass of new weapons so as to convert the entire IS military of a single House to Omni Status – that would then be required to initiate the next Succession War … and by then the clans are expected to attack making the forces they do have available to engage the Clans ….
Thus the assertion given are not really that logical as to the time taken to achieve critical mass Omni tech to initiate a war …
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they did not know if any changes to increase the numbers had happened.
This is correct …. However, tyranny of distance remains – stop their logistics fleets – stop their replacement personnel – this is clearly the weak underside of the Clans invasion. By not attacking this shows a complete lack of understanding as to Military tactics and history.
At the minimum this information from when they were with the clans could have been used as a baseline for creating a Clan Depletion Report – a point that is clearly not understood.
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How long was East Germany out of contact with ANYTHING to do with West Germany
Long enough so as to understand technology, economic development, psychological development – Research how the east lived and this will sho you a clear comparison as to how the Clan freeborn live – Russia under Communist rule is a good example – suggest watching Gorky Park / Atomic Blonde / Bridge of Spies.
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luxuries thrown over the wall
Really? Go back and have a look at the distance between the two walls as well as the security forces in between the two walls - then have a look at the towers created so that one side could see their family members on the other side …
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It was all imported. Which still was happening late into the invasion.
And thus the Clans entire Logistics system is their weakest point to destroy them …..
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Comstar was their shoppers
Doubtful that such an ego-centric bunch of warriors would take this route …
ComStar are the Administrators of the World, they are NOT the Clan’s flunky / slaves as being their shoppers would indicate a position of subservience and this was never part of the deal with Focht.
Also if they did then how many Adepts would now be on the side of the partisans of the worlds they have liven on for so many years? And how quickly would they use their HPGs to tell the IS the truth regarding ComSars agreement with the Clans?
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Spartans did not get brainwashed like clan warriors did.
This just proves no research was undertaken …..
Read about their rules growing up – and the minimal food they were given – thus forcing the children to steel (this was expected) and as long as they never got caught this was acceptable – then read about the boy who captured a live fox and hid it underneath his toga when questioned by his teachers he lied – though in so doing the fox scratched him to death …. The boy was held up as a true example as to what was expected from Spartan boys …..
Also Helen of Troy – Spartan!
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the balloon would be hotter than the air around it
Wrong gas for high altitude – research required
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It was not so simple as you want it to sound like there. The weapons would not be swapped just because.
A senior officer can order the point and negate the trial of refusal
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How do you bid in the next assault when your weapons are in Alpha.
You keep assigning the best weapons to each individual winning bid – so that no matter who wins the battle they receive the most efficient weapons to get the job done – they are not assigned to a unit they are part of the cluster commanders inventory to assign as and when she / he wants it!
See no problem here.
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Do you honestly think that one warrior would allow another warrior to get reputation at their expense?
Trent Vs. Jez – to the winner the spoils no matter how underhanded …
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Tyranny of distance is something you didn't care about when saying the FS should have sent all of their forces to the clan line.
Really?
Comparing a six month voyage to that of the may worlds within the IS …. Strange.
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So cheap weapons are the only thing anyone but elite units get
Mass production not cheap …..
Also the amount of mm each vehicle has is what is important not the same type of armor ….
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More elementals can fit into a dropship, and are more likely to survive emergency crashes.
More casualties ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/16/20 02:12 AM
66.74.60.165
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Considering all that is canon is being complained about, one of the least canon material is being promoted as top of the line canon, and not flawed? It was retconned in after the fact. And even then, a lot of it still isn't canon.
Adam Steiner and the 1st Summerset strikers fought the Falcons. That is about limit of what is canon. That is what broad strokes means. It does not mean every last thing in the cartoon was canonized.
The statement was that the number of sibkos never changed in the clans. That statement is false. Doesn't matter how long it takes to graduate, if any do. The fact that the numbers constantly change is the fact. It has happened that none have graduated, and that isn't just things like their dropship malfunctioning. One of the books mentioned the one sibko was doing so poorly, they thought of scrapping that one entirely.
So start checking your 'facts' before putting them up. You would be surprised on just how much you will learn about the game.
Doesn't matter on the Manhattan project. The fact that ALL of the tech advances were expensive when they were being done. And even more to the point, the one engine put in a Zeus was more expensive then a company of assault mechs alone. The produced the SL tech, which cost a fortune to do. The clan tech is far better then the SL tech, so the costs don't negate the effectiveness of those weapons. Even if they didn't do the whole line, there was a few things that would happen no matter what.
Minor issue with the Dragoons being respected by all houses. Jamie still had the war going with the DC at this time. He refused to let the Dragoons do anything for the DC, and only responded to Luthien because Hanse forced it thru the contract. Takashi basically demanded to fight Jamie when they were there. So no. There is issues with that.
And it was said that no matter what, the houses would have demanded the Dragoons turn over their tech at the end of a gun. The houses would fall on them. So what changed your view?
Desperation was more like it for some houses to attend the meeting. And it wasn't just about the Dragoons. It was a way to personally to talk between Theodore and Hanse to get the agreement to fight the clans without being hit in the back side. It was also a way to make sure the FWL was going to supply both all the DC/FRR/FC with refit kits. So it wasn't that politically expensive for the dragoons. Those fighting the clans knew their current ways were not effective. They needed something different.
20 to 30 years? Did you even bother with the returning of the SL weapons and the 3039 war? Oh yeah. They didn't use any to fight that. And there were no clan tech weapons used against each other after the truce. Might as well say the sky turned green and bunnies jumped out of hats and spread winged unicorns across the lands. Any sort of advantage would have brought on the fight. Hell, it would happen even without advanced tech. It technically did when the FS invaded the CC. Omni tech was being used before the truce went into effect. Not that it was good at that point, but the concept was proven.
A company of clan tech mechs could very well turn more then a few battles for the tech users. Something as simple as breaking the assault company can mean the entire unit dies. Taking the ammo depot changes how things go, even if it is just destroying it so the enemy can't use it.
The IS would have tried to hit clan lines if they had the forces and the idea of where they were coming thru. Pirates had hit them, and most died. Only luck allowed the one to gain omni mechs. But even with that, the pirates couldn't do much and they were experts on periphery jump points and raiding supply lines.
Not sure how much Comstar's manipulation of the HPG network prevented such actions from being done successfully.
The clans were taking systems and it was very possible for a group to hit the supply lines, only to return to base and find warships waiting for them. This IS something they had to worry about.
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ghostrider
08/16/20 02:43 AM
66.74.60.165
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East Germany always had contact with West Germany. Even just propaganda broadcasts. There was no absolute isolation with other cultures. And even had contact with many other nations, so they had plenty of examples of what worked and what didn't. The clans did NOT have that same situation. There were NO outside information coming in to the masses. Some leaders seen it, and were disgusted or tried to use it to the political advantage. The Outbound Light is a good example. The Comstar crew was kept quiet and hidden from all the other clan leaders, and sprung on the grand council. The masses didn't know much about it until after the decision was made to go to war.
Think about what was said about the clans. Comstar was there to keep the belligerent clan warriors from hurting and killing the civilians of those worlds. Do you really think they would tell the clans to get their own things, and risk confrontations? And it wasn't like it was anything special. Just increase Comstars orders. It isn't like adepts were out there pushing shopping carts to get enough food for the clan garrison forces. Hell, the clans were less likely to demand high end stuff, as they did not normally have luxury items in the home worlds. Gourmet burgers comes to mind here. Things like that.
So instead of 20 tons of eggs a week, they upped the order to 40 tons or some such crap. It was be surprising if it wasn't all automated, with the only people involved are the inspectors checking to make sure it was all there and not poisoned.
The way the Spartans trained, was not isolated from the entire world. They had contact with other nations, ideas and concepts. They knew their training was harsh, but how did they know this? Oh yeah. Other nations with which to be compared to. Hmmm. Sounds like they had a lot of outside influence on them. It would also be likely the traded with those outside of their little area, so it isn't close to being the same.
Even with gas, the balloon would be hotter then the air around it. Either that, our shine so brightly, that it would be a star in the middle of the day. That is an issue with being up there. And normally, being that high, metalic material tends to be used, so radar or mad sensors would catch it.
A senior office negate a full unit demanding a trial to avoid losing their life line? This isn't as simple as just one unit using it and returning it. And again, the bidding units are not likely to be from the same parent unit, so you would be removing the traditions. Hell, the high commanders may even promote such a fight, as it shows the spirit of traditions is still alive. Each warrior would demand several trials as well. So no. Simply taking them from those that did not win would not happen. Some of those that did not win could well be the last bid. So if needed, they would be stripped of weapons.
Then open your eyes. There are lots of problems there. You can not just remove weapons from one unit to use in another. Any sort of raid would show that your garrison units, ie the ones that won the last bid and are now sitting the next one out, has no way to fight back. This is also not taking into account losing units or even just part of one. Having an arm blown off, destroys the items in that arm. So weapons would be lost. And the most effective weapons? Most clan warriors do NOT modify their rides. It is very possible they will not have it after their current fight. Mechs do get moved around. You may as well stop all bids and just have the one unit do all the fighting. That makes more sense the moving the weapons around to other mechs.
And you said the clans were not changing at that time. Politics were becoming a major force during the invasion, where lies were told more often, to cover poor performance or hide the fact that things did not go well.
6 month travel time. Sounds about right going from one end of the FC to the other. Yet there are no command circuits to speed it up. Yet you expect units on the border of the OA or TC to be on the clan lines before the 2nd or even 3rd wave. Yet the clans, which have Ion-Lithium batteries in their ships, would take an eternity to move the same distance. And yet this logic fail doesn't register?
One ton of normal armor is the same no matter what different vehicles or mechs it goes on. As the game does not go into volume on ground vehicles, like it does jumpships and warships, it is the same stopping power. And having the same armor on everything drops overhead and allows more stocks to be had. Having 20 different armors is like having 20 different engines for units that use them. Now using Ferro armor and such changes the protection, but in the end, it has the same protection value. The older armors don't follow this, as BAR armor doesn't stop as much as normal armor does.
Actually less casualties. Elemental suits are designed more to take punishment then a cockpit of a mech.
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Requiem
08/16/20 09:11 AM
1.158.133.26
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Adam Steiner and the 1st Summerset strikers fought the Falcons. That is about limit of what is canon.
Adam Steiner
Reconnaissance Mission into the Clan OZ;
Succeeded in re-capturing Somerset from the Jade Falcons – AFFC refused to garrison the world;
There is also the issue of Adam’s older brother Andrew as well as the Falcon POW camp, and the discovery of Camelot Command;
Franklin Sakamoto
Son of Theodore Kurita – who’s great-grand daughter Yori Kurita would be appointed as Coordinator of the Draconis Combine.
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number of sibkos
Any major changes to the number of sibkos in order to achieve a greater number of replacement personnel will require a minimum time period of 18-20 years.
Thus unless each Clan’s Force Depletion Report demonstrated heavy casualties against the IS forces – of which has been demonstrated as being impossible – the number of Sikos will not change from that of pre-invasion numbers.
It is only once fighting commences and actual can be placed against projected will the realization sink in that their reinforcement numbers are lacking - and it is only at this stage that amendments to their sibko numbers begin and it is only at this day plus 19 to 21 years will the results of their modifications to sibko numbers begin to bear fruit.
No matter how you look at it the Clan own hubris / belief in their genetic superiority have forced on their forces within the IS an inferior replacement personnel numbers for the first 19-2 years of the Clan War.
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Doesn't matter on the Manhattan project.
In today’s figures this would be $28,789,000,000 spent to create the bomb.
So how many can I get with this?
This quite clearly demonstrates the willingness of governments to spend money to achieve weapons parity, as at the time the Americans and Oppenheimer had a real fear that Germany was nearing the completion of their own bomb.
So how many Clan’s weapons factories can be established when assume this would transpire as is?
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Minor issue with the Dragoons being respected by all houses. Jamie still had the war going with the DC at this time.
Then why did Theodore Kurita and his entire family (including Omika) travel all the way and take part in the Outreach Conference?
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no matter what, the houses would have demanded the Dragoons turn over their tech at the end of a gun. The houses would fall on them. So what changed your view?
Same answer – as stated previously.
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it would require 20 to 30 years minimum to effectively build up a critical mass of new weapons so as to convert the entire IS military of a single House to Omni Status
Receipt of information from Dragoons – Idea stage
Research and development – existing Mech design / new Mech design – minimum 2 Omni - Mechs per Class Light, Medium, Heavy, and Assault, then add in omni for vehicles + fighters + Bombers and also elemental armor;
Planning
Prototyping – Mech, vehicle, Aerospace fighter, elemental etc.
Sourcing materials for production - manufacturing-relates services
Mass production
Refit time for each RCT until all Front line units have been updated
So yes, this is going to take time for a compete update of new technology within each individual House to create a critical mass of new weapons from which to go to war with …
3039 start of SL weapons – this is where the IS goes beyond this – though I really do not understand why the Houses didn’t begin the concept of Omnis on their Own when you consider the cost / Logistics / military flexibility advantages;
Companies are for raids
Full out wars requires a total refit …
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The IS would have tried to hit clan lines if they had the forces and the idea of where they were coming thru. Pirates had hit them, and most died.
Outside the IS
And yet no one thought of taking them once they got into the inner sphere and reviewing their logs or how about the Bug-Eye – as it can jump alongside other jumpshis and arrive approximately 28 KM apart and slowly track the jumpships route.
Or you could just search system by system based upon probability.
Inside the IS
Supply ships will have to go to every world the Clans have captured as well as to the front lines – rotes, timing schedule are available as missing a drop-ship landing at a clan base would be a little hard to miss – thus arrival time and departure time is available as well as the time it takes to reach their Jumpship at the jump point - any insignificant world would not have warship protection …. Making them vulnerable to attack.
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East Germany always had contact with West Germany.
Look at it from the point of view of an anthropologist studding a new society ….the extreme differences are quite obvious as to social / economic differences and to how this relates to their psyche of vales / needs / wants / desires etc …
This is just identifying the Target Market characteristics of both and then extrapolating what happens when the two are merged ….
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Comstar was there to keep the belligerent clan warriors from hurting and killing the civilians of those worlds. Do you really think they would tell the clans to get their own things, and risk confrontations?
This is about respect!
This is basic Alpha Male aggression technique – ie the Bully – what happens when you do not stand up to a bully from day one? You are going to be picked on day in day out and be seen as nothing more than their slave ….
So see what happens if you do not gain a position of equality when confronting a society that is based upon the premise of superiority even within its own society ….
If ComStar doesn’t gain their respect they will be seen as little more than a client who will one day become a slave …. And this is not a good place to be in ….
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The way the Spartans trained, was not isolated from the entire world.
Continue the research – yes it was …. They were one of the first to have a state sponsored education system for all, where as everyone else had to learn on their own or with the tutors their parents paid … so they looked at everyone else’s ideas and threw it in the garbage … so no outside influence at all – they created an entirely new way of life, politics etc.
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Even with gas, the balloon would be hotter then the air around it.
You are using Helium gas! As for materials – don’t you think that by 3050 a new light weight material that can be created so that it mimic’s the sky is available? Also different materials have different scattering effects when it comes to radar – radar requires a radar signature to bounce back and an amplifier to increase the signal for the operators screen then it is just a question of the Doppler effect for speed and direction.
However if the waved are deflected in such a way that few / none are reflected back in the sources direction you will have stealth in 1970’s / production 1981 of the F-117 Nighthawk was produced why not in the 3050’s?
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A senior office negate a full unit demanding a trial to avoid losing their life line? This isn't as simple as just one unit using it and returning it. And again, the bidding units are not likely to be from the same parent unit, so you would be removing the traditions.
In a situation where logistics has caused a problem with available consumable weapons – it will have to come down to which pilot gets the consumables and for everyone else energy based weapons.
Otherwise you are just depleting an already strained inventory.
And this is the situation the clans will have to work out if the IS is able to hobble their Logistics fleets – even by 25 to 50% reduction this will cause issues.
Remember the next supply run could be six months distant or you begin reaving the Clan next door – something the IS would enjoy also – getting your enemies to fight each other is always entertaining.
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lies were told more often, to cover poor performance or hide the fact that things did not go well.
How well did that work out for the USA forces in Vietnam?
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6 month travel time. Sounds about right going from one end of the FC to the other.
What is the travel time from the closest military depot to that of a front line unit requiring logistics support?
This is the time line – apples with apples not oranges.
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Yet the clans, which have Ion-Lithium batteries in their ships, would take an eternity to move the same distance. And yet this logic fail doesn't register?
Question – How long did it take for Trent to travel back to the Clan Home Worlds from the IS and from there back to the IS again?
Ans: 6 months each way.
So maybe the new wiz-bang batteries never made their way into transports ….
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One ton of normal armor is the same no matter what different vehicles or mechs it goes on.
And yet if applied to a reduced area the thickness of the armor must increase to accommodate a smaller area for the same weight.
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Actually less casualties. Elemental suits are designed more to take punishment then a cockpit of a mech.
That may be so but how does the human body react to being violently impacted with another object – my bet not so good – internal injuries, bones broken, concussion if it was just a light fall but a full on strike there is nothing that is going to survive.
Have a look at F-1 cockpits and how they are designed to survive a crash …. Hit hard enough and even they will not survive.
Elementals may have great armor – but hit hard enough with enough kinetic energy and their organs / body will turn to paste.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/16/20 09:11 AM)
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ghostrider
08/16/20 01:03 PM
66.74.60.165
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Stick to the statement. You said the number of sibkos never changed. The fact it takes so long, and doesn't guarantee results the leaders want isn't the issue of the statement. So no. It isn't set up to rapidly replace lost warriors. Harvesting is about the only way, and even then, you lose more doing so. Yes, you can open up for freeborns to test in, as well as drop the requirements some, but that isn't going to be a wide solution. It may well be that any that do get accepted that way are the first to be sent into the end battle.
The price of the nuke isn't relavant, as it was not something that would be mass produced. It was not something every tank was issued. The fusion engine costs so much, and that is after years of production. For vehicles, it would be easier to just use ICE. The need for heat sinks for energy weapons as well as the BS of the weight, has some using the fusion engine. The clan weapons would be widely used in any combat carrier, including turrets and such. Which also forces the question of why double sinks only work in a few things, and a turret isn't one of them. They can very well get the equipment to get them working into a building.
But the cost to make them is nothing compared to how much could be saved by having them. Imagine a clan erppc carrying Awesome, or the SRM/LRM with clan launchers. Those would be far worth making the tech. Even the Salamander using the half weight clan launchers would be that much more dangerous. Using it properly, the Archer becomes a very dangeous mech again, with endo steel being used to allow more ammo for doubling the number of launchers. The range of the pulse lasers would more then make up for the cost, as now you could fire them at a greater distance then the SL version. So no. Cost would not be a factor. Even the excuse of stopping to make warships does the same sort of thing.
Necessity is why the Kurita's attended the meeting. Not just to learn about the clans in better detail and how to be more efficient in beating them, but to talk to the other house lords and get things worked out in person. Using diplomats runs the risk of the diplomat having some issues and fouling up a deal that would have gone thru. They had to be more personal in order to gain some better, lasting respect between the leaders. It is one thing to talk to someone and never get to know anything about them over the coms, but quite another to find out they are very much a living being and share a lot of your own desires and fears. The house lords inherited the 'hatred' of each other from their ancestors. Not much in the current age had added to that.
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ghostrider
08/16/20 01:15 PM
66.74.60.165
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There are a few things that come to mind on why omnis were not designed by the houses, and most come down to the companies that make the mechs themselves. Mainly, they would not want the cost of coming up with the plans to do so. They are making money doing the same old boring designs, and most do not make other weapon systems. So if you just make a Waps mech, you focus on MLs and SRM 2's You probably wouldn't bother with say a ppc or autocannon.
The Mongoose came the closest, but yet no one really thought about how efficient it would be to just remove one weapon and slap in another. They don't really care how much the customer pays for upkeep, unless they have a contract to do so themselves, then they want to make money.
An major example of this is the gas engine carberator. They had some ready to be produced in the 70's and earlier, but the oil companies did everything they could to prevent the models that were designed to allow the big v8s of the time to get gas mileage as the small economy cars get today. They prevented the patents from going thru and bought up all the designs to make sure they never seen the light of day. Synthetic lubricants are another thing that is cutting into their profit. No need for oil when you have things like that. It is also why electric cars had such an uphill battle. Now imagine this being played out across the entire production of a mech. And the government reps would be getting paid by these people to make sure any laws don't get passed that would change their status quo. Standardization is the last thing that would stop omnis without a major reason. Donal PPCs use specific brackets to fit their product. The Krauss PPC maker does not want to change to use the Donal companies mounting, cooling, and power points. Where the omni pod is supposed to deal with that, it does have it's limits. There would be SPECIFIC pods that would have to fit certain weapons from manufacturers. Not something any company wants to deal with or pay for. And copyrights/patents come into play. And those would never be removed as it allows companies to make money and prevent competition.
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ghostrider
08/16/20 01:47 PM
66.74.60.165
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How many Bugeyes did the IS have at any time? It was an SL design, and the houses had 0 during the clan invasion. Now if they did have some, then Trent was not really necessary in finding the clan home worlds. They could have started following the clans shipping lines, once they found them. But again, the lack of resources would cause issues.
Look at the Germany example from a realistic view. They were never out of contact with ANY other nation. The clans had the clans, which all had the same basic ideas. There was no one saying that freeborns should be treated in certain ways, except disdain and as a third rate citizen. Failed trueborns were only treated a little better, as they were iron womb conceived. But they still failed, so were less the human. Both sides of Germany took information from those they were 'allied' to, and still did not have a one government fits all countries template to follow. Differences were more then just the color of the flag sort of thing. The clans only had the clans to draw any comparison to. It is a slight of a surprise that the freeborns didn't try to all merge into the few clans that were not as nasty to them as the rest. But then national pride has some effect there.
Yeah. The people that back the bully get picked on a lot. The alpha male does not exist in the public face for Comstar with the exception of their people facing local law violations. In Comstar's eye, the more the clans relied on them, the more the clans would fall once they made their move. Where are you going to turn to when you need 20 tons of eggs each day? Without having to even try to figure that out, the clans wouldn't know. Especially if they had to have them shipped in. The entire HPG network was theirs as no one else knew how to operate them properly.
And the clans hating normal jobs would be enough to avoid causing issues with the people that are doing them. Command personnel would be the main ones dealing with Comstar. The single mechwarrior would not have much contact.
So the Spartans only dealt with Spartans? Not even close. They dealt with plenty of others, which all influenced their decisions to a point. This is what isn't being understood here. There was outside influence on them. The clans did not have any.
Now comes the kicker to the supply problem. WHICH warriors would get the supplies and which would be relegated to being sent back out, removed from being a warrior? Barring trials, there would still be fights, as a true warrior will not just give their weapons to someone else. You give me your supplies, not the other way around for the clan way of thinking. To try and say otherwise, would be breaking with the clans traditions, ie logic hole.
Actually, those that got away with the lies became rich, while those that got caught, or were successfully made a scape goat, not so much. Rich interests is why the war started, but it was said to be something else. The clans started doing this very thing, and for those with connections, got promoted for such actions. So skills stated become the second way to get ahead. Being a good liar with connections started becoming the first. A complete reversal of the way of the clans.
Moving supplies, or moving troops. The time it takes to get from one place to another does not change this. Now with the way the story is set up, the clans were not supposed to have the proper supplies near them. They gloss over it with the having to scale back the assaults and such, but other then that, there isn't much seen to support this. Given the lack of ships the Falcons had with them, one assault per unit was about max. So when you only have 20 ships you can jump with, 20 is the max places you can hit. You can't hit 40 places using the same jumpships.
How important was the ship Trent was on? Oh. They were sending failed and disgraced warriors back home. They were low priority compared to others. It was likely, though not printed, that the jumpship they were using, would have been used for priority ships, had they needed them. Troop ships are not great for cargo carrying. A Mammoth would have priority.
You do understand the concept of armor points? The less armor you have, the thinner it is going to be. Yet the game doesn't deal with HOW you take a standard piece of armor and shave off some of it to work on a unit that doesn't use as much. Saying it is cut to a smaller size doesn't really work well. But to keep information easy, they don't have different listings for armor used on different units. The Pegasus is supposed to use Hexigonal plates, yet they are the only ones to do so in the TROs.
The armors are not only set up to help absorb impact, but the Harjel as well as the meds that are automatically injected would help survival rates. Also, the elemental armor is more likely to get pushed into dirt then a mech will, if something lands on it. The controls are another issue. It is suggested that the arms of an elemental do NOT contain the pilots arms. If true, then the risk of ripping an arm off is less likely. Yet some show the pilots arms being put into a sleeve. Not sure if they have the ability like halo to lock up the suit or not.
The Harjel would help prevent the pilot from dealing with things like a loss of atmosphere, or poisonous chemicals. So one for one, the elemental is more likely to survive a crash then a mech warrior.
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Requiem
08/17/20 08:18 AM
1.158.133.26
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It may well be that any that do get accepted that way are the first to be sent into the end battle.
Not likely, and give up the honor of first into battle ….
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The price of the nuke isn't relevant
Conceptually this demonstrates a states willingness to commit large funds to a military project in order to protect the realm.
Remember this is the R&D before it is mass produced.
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Necessity is why the Kurita's attended the meeting. Not just to learn about the clans in better detail and how to be more efficient in beating them
And how did that work out? TPTB allowed the DC to win how many battles? Did the House Lords decide to re-establish the Star League and the SLDF?
Only positive was that the FC and DC came to a non-aggression policy – however as per your past writings you would not allow the units to move as you would still not trust the other side to uphold their agreement.
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There are a few things that come to mind on why omnis were not designed by the houses, and most come down to the companies that make the mechs themselves.
Please point out where a company built a weapon without adhering to military requirements for new weapons systems as per their specifications?
The Great House sets the rules not the companies that make the existing systems ….
The absence of mass Omni designs within each House is beyond ludicrous from every point of view ….
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How many Bug-eyes did the IS have at any time?
The real question is could they make them?
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But again, the lack of resources would cause issues.
By 3050 this argument no longer holds water – please do explain how all the Mech / vehicle / fighter / power-armor / warships were manufactured if there is a lack of resources?
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Look at the Germany example from a realistic view. They were never out of contact with ANY other nation.
Still not looking at this correctly …. When the wall fell what occurred to the average citizen? Open Vs Closed society …..
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The entire HPG network was theirs as no one else knew how to operate them properly.
Except for the Clans who did have their own people and did have people who could not only run them but also fix them and improve upon them …. So if the Clans decide to get rid of ComStar Adepts (permanently) because they had no respect for them at all and thought they were just freeborn whom they thought they had the right to discipline at any time, they will still have people to run them for them for the Clans ….
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So the Spartans only dealt with Spartans? Not even close.
Try again …
The City States of Greece are a very good example of the Clan system ….
The Spartans system was totally their own no one had a system anywhere near theirs ….. there was no influence from any other city state …
Research required ….
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WHICH warriors would get the supplies and which would be relegated to being sent back out, removed from being a warrior?
Why have a khan then?
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So skills stated become the second way to get ahead. Being a good liar with connections started becoming the first. A complete reversal of the way of the clans.
So the clans had social generals also? Then their ability to wage war should have fallen as did the Lyrans.
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They were sending failed and disgraced warriors back home. They were low priority compared to others.
Problem with this is that you need all your clan ships to move at a rapid speed so that they can be resupplied as quickly as possible, and return to the IS as soon as possible, so that they can resupply their invasion fleet asap, so that they can win and become the il-Clan.
This is a race remember ….
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You do understand the concept of armor points?
Points on a light Mech Vs Assault Mech – the difference due to the weight in armor allowed ?
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It is suggested that the arms of an elemental do NOT contain the pilots arms. If true, then the risk of ripping an arm off is less likely
Go to https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Elemental_(Battle_Armor)
Then go to gallery at the bottom of the page
Then tap on Elemental Cross Section image to increase the size of the picture
Notice anything about the pilots’ arms? Also notice how cramped the armor is for the pilot?
This is like jousting armor and a lance – your body is going to take severe damage if struck by a kinetic weapon or have the rules of physics once more been suspended just like nukes?
Sorry but no a severe hit by a drop-ship hitting the surface of a planet containing elementals they will NOT survive …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/17/20 12:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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The nations are not one big unified entity. There were plenty of others that would send forces across the border and hit the enemy. And it would not be just criminal elements like the Black Dragon Society, but province lords as well. They could move some, but not all as was suggested that started that whole discussion.
Weapon specs get ignored quite a bit. More then a few units were produced that did NOT meet requirements for what they were designed for. I want to say the Cameron warship was one of them. It was sent in for revision as more and more things got added, or couldn't happen in it's current form. As for weapons, the government says build this weapon, they don't give you specific dimensions to how the internals are. IF they did, they could make it themselves, which no one wants. The military could very well suffer massived coupes as no one would know how much of what was built.
Companies themselves would not always have the same brackets on the same weapon. A PPC on the Warhammer, would not fit on say the Zeus or the Marauder. They require their own set up, and the internals would not be the same to allow simple change of brackets. Power and coolant lines would see to that. This is true with all weapon types. For the IS, a lot of companies would just refuse to change their designs. Even the DC/CC don't forces weapon companies to do it their way or destroy the company.
In the real world, the company that won the contract for one of the 'newer' fighters could not have the VTOL jet do VTOL without having mechanics physically removing the armor around the landing fan. They should have been disqualified, but instead won the contract and was allowed to try and fix it before the jet went into production. It was still not reliable when they were ordered.
The IS did not have the blueprints for the Bugeyes, but I think the thrusters and possibly the compact core would prevent it. Granted the state of electronics in the game would mean even the clans couldn't produce it, but that can be debated.
You left out the two big ones needed to move units. Dropships and Jumpships. Resources that even though did increase in production was still required for keeping worlds alive.
How many warships were produced? Maybe 30 total in the entire IS? Well, not including Comstar. But as said before, the developers did not keep things consistent with numbers. The huge increase in mechs before the 4th war, then during the clan invasion does not match their own abilities. All the new designs that came rolling off for the clan invasion far out paces the facilities they are said to have had. Defiance miraculously expanded enough lines to keep up with old mech production, put out new upgrades and new mechs, yet did not seem capable of that many when it was made by the SL. Certain materials can only be made in space factories, yet the amount required by the new surge, would mean those facilities were not destroyed as previously reported. Things like endo steel were supposedly lost due to the factories being destroy, not because they couldn't get workers to them.
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ghostrider
08/17/20 12:51 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Germans still had information on how things were done. Doesn't matter if it was closed or not, the average citizen had some news of what the other side was doing. And the countries that supported the other side was even more well known. They may not have known how to make coconut cream pie, they did know that the other side has certain luxuries or lack them. They knew those states that supported their side had a different way of doing things. For the common man, the west was a little more desirable, while the rich liked the east a little more as they could use their wealth to force the common man to work for cheaper and not have a chance to even compete against the rich. This is not suggesting all would be like this.
But they still had the information of a different way of doing things. And they were not isolated and taught that there was no other way for several hundreds years.
What does the clans have to do with Comstars relative immunity from punishment from the IS? Hanse tried and failed. The only other house that would support him was allied to him and already working with him. The other three did not have the large issues with comstar until they found out Walterly had be working with the clans. So again. What does the clans have to do with Comstar not being punishable at that time?
So nothing like what type of weapons or armor they used was influenced by other entities in that time? Or the even the need for the warriors to be trained under such harsh conditions? The state in which they did things did not influence the concept of schools and such? If you think not, then you seem out of contact with things. Just the shape of the shields or how long spears were, was influence from outside of their state. What they ate, which also helps get into and keep a fit shape comes into it. The spartans did NOT invent the advancement of tech that they used. Some things were refined to their specifics, but they were influenced by others.
A khan is the general leader in charge. They are not going to destroy traditions because they didn't pay attention to what was needed. Modify things yes. But they would not stop the trials just to allow a specific few to fight in all the combats. To even attempt it would be to admit they did not know what they were doing, and therefor was not the superior person they wanted to be known as. And a khan can be challenged by warriors. Most did not go that far, as it was more to bring an issue to the attention of the khans, but they would be challenged.
Did you not read when Vlad showed the one Falcon leader was only in position because of politics? Yes. The clans were getting social generals into position. But not all were generals. The entire Touman was starting to have inadequate warriors being promoted.
The clan leaders were not in a rush at first to get things going. They though the IS would fall, so that meant their plans were not flawed. Only when it got to where the 'superior' clans started losing to the Wolves that they realized they screwed up. Conventional clan supply numbers were NOT going to cut it. IF not for the PGCs and second lines frivolous amounts of unnecessary supplies, the front line would have been unable to keep going.
They are far more likely to survive then a mech jockey in a mech. The entire armor distributed the damage more evenly then the seat belts in a mech seat. The fact that it is tighter, helps to prevent bouncing around into the shell, which whiplash is a nasty effect that happens. Then you have the major issue of elementals being in better shape to handle such trauma. Will it hurt them? Not a doubt. Will they survive it better then a mech warrior? That is not in doubt. Even outside the armor for both, the elemental is more likely to survive. Conditioning helps with that.
I could say a normal soldier will survive better in a crash then someone that can't stand even a small fall without breaking bones.
Oh yeah. The elementals is more like to be able to gain some control over his suit before they hit, so can lessen the blow by rolling with it. Not all the time but enough to skewer the results.
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Requiem
08/18/20 06:42 AM
1.158.133.26
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The nations are not one big unified entity.
None of the nations in the IS can be considered unified – they are made up of various factions.
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Weapon specs
Standardizing weapons for any House’s weapons allow for greater logistical security – brackets are just and add on.
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The IS did not have the blueprints for the Bugeyes.
The Adean Dulcimer – owned by Interstellar Expeditions; and the possibility of Industrial espionage;
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Dropships and Jumpships. Resources that even though did increase in production was still required for keeping worlds alive. How many warships were produced? Maybe 30 total in the entire IS?
First, 30 in what time period? A year how about 10 years?
Second on what basis is this being determined – what evidence as to the speed of manufacture?
Third, as stipulated many times in the past there is no evidence as to the amount of Jumpships / Dropships in the IS – the only thing hat comes close is the 4th Succession War Atlas and again to interpret this a great deal of liberties must be taken as to type of ships available …..
So again as there is no real evidence no one can say for an absolute certainty …..
And as this alt’s primary mission is to add a bit more life to an invasion that only recognizes minimal use of military by the FC – amendments must be made … assumptions must be made ….. and based upon my assumptions I am going to keep with the program as is ….
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Germany
Closed Society Vs Open Society – information is irrelevant – consider the shopping habits of the former east as they went to the west – this is the problem consumerism / access to new ideas / access to new recreation facilities will shatter the Clans Freeborn sense of identity with the Clans – it is inevitable, more and more will run away leaving the warriors to fend for themselves. Basic Psychology, when exposed to a open western culture ….
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What does the clans have to do with Comstars relative immunity from punishment from the IS?
Comprehension of what was written ….
My Quote: “So if the Clans decide to get rid of ComStar Adepts (permanently) because they had no respect for them at all and thought they were just freeborn whom they thought they had the right to discipline at any time, they will still have people to run them for them for the Clans.”
If the clans have no respect for ComStar Adepts will this provide them with immunity form CLAN punishment if ordered to do something and they say no?
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The spartans did NOT invent the advancement of tech.
And the clans got theirs from the SL and their society from Nicholoas … who for the better part of his life, at that statge, had resided in Moscow …
Have a look at the underlining principles that forms their society ….
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A khan is the general leader in charge.
Traditions are malleable – just as the Ghost Bear Freeborn when theirs were taken away …
The Khan can make orders as and when they like and for whatever reason …. Otherwise they are not a Khan ….
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Did you not read when Vlad showed the one Falcon leader was only in position because of politics?
And what happened to him?
Question is why couldn’t the IS do the same thing if there were so many social generals within the Falcons?
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The clan leaders were not in a rush at first to get things going. They though the IS would fall, so that meant their plans were not flawed.
Really? …. A complete lack of understanding as to the military and logistical requirements of an operation 6 months distant from any support facilities and this is not flawed?
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They are far more likely to survive then a mech jockey in a mech.
Ever considered the egg drop science experiment from a great height ? try about 10 stories …..
Second consider the amount of effort taken by NASA to put a vehicle on Mars …..
Their insides would be paste ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/18/20 11:44 AM
66.74.60.165
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Ok. So now that we agree upon the fact that there are more then a few factions in each nation. Now. Some will send out forces to attack their neighbors, even if they are part of the same nation. Moving all your forces, may not include those forces the factions have, and they will use 'pirates' to hit the enemy. This would include mercs as well. Some love this sort of work, as it allows them to sack locations and get away with crimes.
Personal guards seem to be immune from the nations rulers to be sent elsewhere. So with this, raids and full scale invasion will happen during the NAP between the FC and DC. But nations know this. No matter what, they can not leave the border unguarded. Under guarded is very probable.
For the IS, do you think all Medium lasers fit in the same area? And they all have the same connections? Coolant couplers and jackets? Targeting sensors in the same location?
Not even close. Mounting points are spread all over the place as specific manufacturers had to place such things in locations that were not the same as the last unit. Sometimes even a different model of the same mech would require a new set up. The does not mean all weapons are completely different. Companies does license out their designs, so there can be some standards, but when a company makes it's own weapons, they tend to make sure you have to buy their weapon to replace it. I use brackets as a general term, as they are actually easier to make then having to drill new bolt holes, tap them out and then install the unit. Which is pretty much what jury rigging units do now to put in a different manufacturers, or even different model component in.
Weapons are slightly easier to make a standard, then say the actuators of a mech. Designers haven't gone back to 'redesign' most of the older mechs to get a standard. Too costly, as well as causing major disruptions to supply lines.
Now it is stupid that someone didn't figure out how to make something like an omni pod where you could just slide in a jacket style unit into a mech that would contain what is needed to install any currently known weapon, such as the ML. I can understand keeping it limted to one weapon type, as a full torso pod would be impossible for all but the manufacturer, as they would need to redesign the entire structure.
This would require rerouting so much, then an outside company would be better off just making their own unit. Things like the coolant, power, electronics, as well as structure, myomer connection points, and other things would need to be redone.
Then with border factories, they do change hands from time to time, and you would have to retool them from the enemies set up. Leaving it as is, allows you to make the units there, without having all this crap going on. That also doesn't leave out retraining techs, as well as trying to get the new stuff installed, and hopefully, it doesn't require a redesign of the assembly line. Tight locations may well cause a different sized component to not fit without issues.
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ghostrider
08/18/20 12:05 PM
66.74.60.165
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So the person that had it made the Bugeyes? Or was it just the company that originally did, and the plans are buried under a glow pile of rubble that was the office? In canon, I have not heard of anyone having the plans for it, but for the alt, that is something that can be made up on the fly. Which is why canon and alt do not compare.
The electronics on it would be something any house would love to have. They don't need the warship so much as the components.
Figure within 10 years of the clan invasion date. There were not that many warships made in the IS, with a few being said were discontinued after 3 or so of them were made. Warships were the top expense for the houses. Yet a pair of them would more then make up for the costs of getting clan tech set up. Yeah, an clan erppc is more expensive then an IS one, but the ability to have more power at a greater distance is how the clans slammed the IS, Taking out light and even medium mechs before they could close would definitely be worth it. A single clan ERPPC taking out a 1.5 million c-bill Locust would be definitely worth the extra cost. Clan ultra 20's on a Demolisher? Yeah. That is very scary. The LRM/SRM has been put forth a few times. But as said, support equipment such as the double heat sinks is worth far more. All units with just the doubles running cooler, means more sustained fire. This is what helps win battles against numbers. You fire more often, means you are likely to hit more often. Not always the case as range does affect things, but instead of a normal ml, you have and erml installed. Now you hit at the range of a standard large laser. You outrange most of the normal weapons used, ie the standard ml, srm, ac 20 and such. So it is more then worth the cost to research and build. The fact that the NAIS had ALREADY done so negates a lot of the research. But this would make future wars less likely to threaten the IS as a whole.
This does apply to warships as well, Monitors especially. They could intercept dropships with the cargo of whatever in them, including nukes and such. So more then a few invasions would be stopped before they even get to the planet. That also goes for any house trying to invade, but brings up the counter issue of those that have it, are at a great advantage over those that don't have it. The clan invasion showed that, and the developers used it to hurt the FS in the future with it.
Now what finally forced East Germany to finally allow the merger? Russia was slowly going into a major problem with funds. If they did not have the west there to show them how to make that money, they would not have had any influence to allow them to join. What if the west had the same ideas and attitude of the East and their allies? Nothing but the names of those in charge? How different would that have been? There are a few forms of communism as well as capitalism. If the world was all on way, how do you know another method is better then the one already installed? Much like the saying good/evil duality can survive without the other. Not possible. Good needs evil to show what not to do, and be used as a measuring stick, while evil needs good for the same concept.
And then the suppression of all thoughts for decades without anything outside to even try to assist removing it. This ends the belief that something better is out there. No contact what so ever. Part of why the Dark Caste rose and became a problem. They offered a slightly less oppressive way of doing things, but in the end it wasn't much better then the normal clans.
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ghostrider
08/18/20 12:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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The original statement about comstars immunity was that the IS could not just dissolve them before they did. The clans probably did have issues with warriors getting upset because of the adepts telling them they are not going to listen, but again. Both sides leaderships said to avoid this issues, and had set up who can tell who what to do. The only time a normal warrior would have major contact with the adepts is any guards left. And even them, they had their orders from their superiors. As it sounds, the clans left comstar to guard their facilities.
So back to the original question. Before operation Scorpion, the IS did not have the ability to properly run the HPG network. As stated, they kept the important ones running, but not all.
How much of the tech did the spartans buy from others? Food? Other items? Food is very important to making a society the way it is. Having to rely on outside sources causes issues, but it does cause you to focus on getting the most nutrition for the amount. Their diets would reflect this. This goes for the ores they had access to in order to make weapons and shields. The training programs would be built to what they had to train at. You are not going to be able to train for combat in snow in the area. Countries around you, do force you to have to have so many troops in areas, or risk being invaded. Culture and education comes from a far as well as your own lands.
The khans have a lot of power, but they can not just decide to change things on a whim. They do need to keep the backing of their clans, otherwise, what would prevent the crusaders from just attacking the wardens and wiping them completely out? They had the numbers and power to do so before the war. As well as after. When the Wolf/Falcon refusal war was done, both clans should have been taken out. And it would have been the best thing for those still left. So why didn't the khans just decide to do something like a continuous run against them? Skirt the trial of annihilation or absorbtion? Then call for it, once they could not resist the calls? Then you need to win the bid for the trial. But you could push the bid to a point that would cause the attacking clans to lose or set them up for the same thing? It was not the clans ways of thinking at that point, but one that could very well have come up.
The issue of the social generals in the clans, especially the crusaders come to light AFTER the clan war. It was a way to change the clans from being the honor bound invaders, to become the very thing the Psy-ops would change them into. The power hungry king makers. The power of plenty does that to all eventually. Soon, what you have isn't enough, so you head out and take what you can. Sound like the whole basis for the game?
They were flawed. But the clan leaders didn't see that. They did not believe the reports that were sent about how the IS would fight. They believed in their superiority, and knew in their own delusions, they would never be beaten. And it was written that way to make the war a war, not just a blitz to Terra.
How many elementals have jets on their suits? How many original clan omnis had jets on their units? Not installed afterwards, but stock?
Funny thing about those very crashes, as more survive then would be expected.
Though it sounds like you expect them to be shot out like a gauss slug. That isn't really the case all the time. If they jump, the elementals in working power armor do have ways to slow them down. Not so with most omnis. If they remain onboard, they are more likely to survive as the armor will protect them from the more damaging effects. A mech warrior in a mech does have the head armor to help, but being slammed around in the harness would be worse then the elemental armor. The armor contacts are more spread out, so less likely to just rip off a limb or cut into you.
So the statement stands. An elemental in their armor is far more likely to survive a crash then a mechwarrior in their mech.
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Requiem
08/18/20 04:53 PM
1.158.133.26
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there are more than a few factions in each nation.
And yet what is their lethality? What is their access to inter-planetary transport capabilities?
As stated if Hanse Davion is utilizing the majority of both Lyran and Suns transport capabilities to ensure the safety of both Houses in an effort to initiate a massive response to the Clans – what transport capabilities remain?
Ans – only the illegal hiding from the law as mercenaries are known as well as their access to transport – and leverage can be applied upon the mercenary board to inform all such mercenaries if they step out of line during said time of crisis they had best find the deepest darkest hole and bury themselves or the repercussions of them ever finding a contract again within the FC or the DC will become non-existent – Persona non grata.
QED – if enough forces remain within the Houses to act as a ready reaction force to any pirate activity as well as the reserve units on the majority of worlds are simultaneously activated the propensity for damage by these nefarious groups becomes somewhat limited - especially if our first response is not to engage them but to acquire their transport – Jump-ship through the use of naval marines, who are trained explicitly for the endeavor.
Once world of such action becomes common knowledge how many pirates will continue their actions? Very few if any …. problem solved.
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For the IS, do you think all Medium lasers fit in the same area?
For each House’s military forces - they should have been brought together so that the majority of parts can be interchangeable. Allowing each military industrial corporation to maintain their sovereignty is something that would not occur – uniformity of spare parts – especially with regards to weapons.
This was a clear issue with regards to Germany WW2 as well as all military going forward.
And again if you are in a universe of depleting resources the idea of standardizing parts so as to maintain operational efficiency is again a no brainer with regards to logistics control.
And again in a society of diminishing logistics the idea of creating an onmi vehicle that could have interchangeable weapons pods is again the next logical development of the BattleMech – in my opinion with the introduction of the Helm Memory Core / or even just prior 4th Succession War NAIS should have developed the IS’s first Omni (tie in with Wolfs Dragoons last supply run returning in 3020) and from there it should have snowballed to every House. < For me I created a Crusader Omni.>
And thus by the time of the arrival of the Clans their outdated information <now 30 years old> would not include the IS’s development and use of their own omni tech.
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So the person that had it made the Bugeyes?
Where did this canon version of the Bug-eye come from? ….. another black hole in history? … another time jump? … and if it was known why didn’t Comstar try to destroy it as the technology contained within would pose a threat to them – so why didn’t they try to destroy it?
Too many back-story black holes that should have been explained at the time of its reintroduction ….
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Figure within 10 years of the clan invasion date, there were not that many warships made in the IS
There is a previous forum on this … in that the FC alone could have produced about 15-20 warships every 18 months with just what was available in 3050 (plus taking into account the CC no longer exists)?
Thus after 10 years who knows what the FC could be manufacturing if they have also established new hidden world naval construction sites …..
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But this would make future wars less likely to threaten the IS as a whole.
Then why have wars prior to the arrival of the Clans where all weapons are standardized?
Yes there can be a period of inequality – but there should also be a period of equality
Thereafter it is just a question of R&D development as to the introduction of new weapons and the period until they become standardized and new weapons are introduced and the cycle goes on and on
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Now what finally forced East Germany to finally allow the merger? Russia was slowly going into a major problem with funds.
Have a look at consumer R&D …. Access to new technology, access to markets, and their own philosophy which did not allow for development / introduction of westernized goods and services is what finally brought them down. Stagnation Vs western development ….
The same could be said for the Clans … in a society that does not allow for excesses when introduced to a society that has many and diverse how is the average freeborn going to act?
Something the game never even bothered to touch on because the reality is that the majority of the Clans freeborn would have rebelled and gone over to the Inner Sphere …. Because there they would have been respected and they would have had a far more higher quality of life …. The Clans only offer repression and hardship, the Is offers a western style of living of freedom ….. their own philosophical way f life is what would have brought them low …. Keeping people in an effective bondage and expecting them to remain there …. Yes for a time they would … but over time when they become de-programmed you can expect mass exodus of their freeborn from Clan society to IS …..
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The only time a normal warrior would have major contact with the adepts is any guards left.
However, the problem is that the Guards ARE the Clan Warriors - ComStar Adepts don’t have ComGuatd – so that leaves only the Clan Warriors themselves to be the guards ….
And on a planet where the majority of guards is a trinary of Mechs this becomes a serious issue of who is really guarding whom?
But this still doesn’t change the subject – Khans are not allowed to interfere with tradition – and disciplining freeborn in one of the duties of a warrior so again if the average clan warrior has no respect for an IS ComStar Adept they will disciple them as well – so again how long until the ConStar Adepts start helping the resistence once they have been beaten down?
Also there is a period of time prior to this agreement with ComStar – how were they treated in this time period? And how would this experience cloud their views going forward ….
Again the story does not delve deep enough to fully comprehend the situation on every world ….
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So back to the original question. Before operation Scorpion, the IS did not have the ability to properly run the HPG network. As stated, they kept the important ones running, but not all.
How many shadow wars have ComStar gotten into with the Houses throughout the years? ….. contingency planning by every House would say that every House would have a plan in place for the day ComStar finally overstepped their position and had to be removed …. Their position as a Neutral arbitrator had finally worn too thin …. The canon war of 3039 and the previous shadow war with the FC proved that their time was near to an end …. No house could allow them to station their troops on their worlds – this is the SLDF all over again and is quite an intolerable situation …..
Andin contingency plans would have been put in place – Hanse Davion – would have ensured that there was a plan in place …
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How much of the tech did the spartans buy from others? Food? Other items? Food is very important to making a society the way it is.
Again immaterial but if required review their Helots …
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Culture and education comes from a far as well as your own lands.
Remember the age in which they lived …. Greek city States and Persians …. Also remember the massive amount of cultural misunderstandings these two groups had over the issue of providing ground and water at a religious event and what each side thought it to mean …. They clearly did not understand each other.
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The khans have a lot of power, but they can not just decide to change things on a whim.
They only need the backing of the named warriors within their political group. And as long as this was the most powerful militarily they ruled with absolute authority …. As long as they didn’t upset other Clans who would attack them because of the decisions made ….
Again warring city states …..
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The issue of the social generals in the clans, especially the crusaders come to light AFTER the clan war.
And yet how long has the political age within the clans been continuing ….. when did the Political Century start again? So the rise of the social general would have started here as well …. From 2947 onwards …. So how many were named because of political alliances rater than skill?
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They were flawed. But the clan leaders didn't see that. They did not believe the reports that were sent about how the IS would fight.
They were also out of date by 30 years – last Dragoon supply run was in 3019-3020.
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How many elementals have jets on their suits? How many original clan omnis had jets on their units? Not installed afterwards, but stock?
Funny thing about being in a flat spin as the Drop-ship falls to the planets surface is the inability to move due to the massive G-forces the spin creates – as well as firing off the jet thrusters inside a dropship will only bounce you off walls.
As for jumping out and hoping you thrusters can save you – have a look at how well that works for mechs if they are too high – they are just going to become a stain on the ground ….. so when did elementals get parachutes placed on their armor for commando type insertions, as this is more an IS forte.
So the statement holds the elemental will become a smear on the landscape …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/18/20 04:54 PM)
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ghostrider
08/18/20 08:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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It seems you don't understand that finding intel on things isn't just a snap of the fingers, nor is trying to pushing nobles for things. You would very much set off riots and rebellions in areas for arresting or even accusing a local lord of breaking the NAP, as some don't recognize any cease fire with the enemy. Too much blood in history, which is part of why the second SL could not last. It may well cause a full ceding of the entire march if you tried. The leaders are not as powerful in their holding of their position. It that was true, Skye would never had tried to revolt. The Draconis March would have been more willing to let units from their area wipe out the CC, so they could focus on the DC more from then on.
Finding out who paid for what, isn't as easy as you think either. Most know the back doors to getting things done, and the only way Hanse could 'stop' such things is to seize EVERY last jumpship in FC space. Privately owned as well as rented tend to be immune to seizure in all but the most dire circumstances. And the FC didn't realize how bad it was until the Dragoon meeting. They did not know the DC was hit so hard and vis versa. So your full intel the moment it happens does not exist.
Lethality? Alls it would take is to kill someone high in the military or close to someone powerful to start a full scale border war. For some leaders, just a strike on their favorite palace would be enough.
And how many forces does the local noble have? They could be the odd buyer of a lance of mechs every year that no one knows who it was. Taking out a single factory could well start the war. So any strike, even an unsuccessful one, can very well kill the NAP without even trying.
The concept of omni tech isn't the issue. The issue is human nature. Defiance does not want someone replacing their ML with a cheaper local version. So they are going to make it difficult for anyone else to make something that does work easily. Greed will win out, as each CEO/Owner will say their product is the correct one, so all have to convert to their standards.... And add in that their is a fee to license their product. They are NOT going to just let others make their copyrighted items without being paid for it. Used to be computers could take any hard drive and use it, but now they have specific plugs for different makers. Why? You have to buy from us when something goes wrong. So we can charge you for it. The cheap manufacturer isn't going to be able to help you anymore.
Also, some of the companies you buy things from are multi national. They have offices and factories in several nations. If you decide to force them to change to your standards, you become black listed. And if you seize anything, you destroy any chance of every dealing with companies again. They will move out or charge you so much more. Even selling their product to your enemy for cheaper, just to make you pay for it.
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ghostrider
08/18/20 08:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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New discoveries of SL places tends to bring up things comstar didn't confiscate or destroy. But wait. None of the houses bothered to finance such searches according to you.
Even research done with enough security to keep comstar from finding out until the prototype is being tested happens from time to time.
And your pirates that couldn't possibly get into locations they do, may well be hired by comstar, but under a false identity. How many times has this been done to stop tech advances? Or remove some old tech that has been found? More then you would like to believe. Might be how pirates continue to operate, as no one should be selling to them, yet they do.
The discussion was canon not having built a lot of warships. Alt having the CC destroyed has no place in this conversation piece. This is the very core of why you saying the threads are not canon bashing, but I say it is. Canon was using economics to limit advancements in some areas, but kept overfunding in other. Warships were not produced long after the clan truce, as they were too expensive to make and keep. The alt has NOTHING to do with this fact.
The entire IS seems to be set that they do not want to make war more efficiently for lower numbers of units. They wanted the mechs to be the last line of defense, and the ones to gain all the glory taking the enemy out. If it was about efficiency, then orbital and ground batteries would have been used a hell of a lot more then what they were. Destroy the enemy before they hit the atmosphere, and you can retaliate at your leisure. They just lost their ground forces and dropships. But this means no ground combat where you are desperate to defend your bases.
The game seems to want combat, but not a slaughter for players. The logic doesn't hold out on WHY things weren't done a certain way. It is cheaper to have a 10million c-bill missiles that destroys the enemy before then can even beging to launch, then send in a company of mechs, which may not stop the enemy. Consider if the enemy has an overlord or excalibur. A battalion to hit your 12 mechs with. More with the excalibur, but it is easier to stick with the mechs only.
The game does touch on it. You seem to want to ignore it so you can complain about it. The clans changed from their military honor bound settings to becoming more like the IS, then devolving into becoming pirate kings. But that doesn't mean they touched on what the power of plenty does. Yeah. I can see that now. Sheesh, what bs.
News Flash. Comstar did have hired guards for their facilities. They also had trained ones that comstar trained themselves. It was how they kept their mech warrior population quiet before the 4th war, and they continue to have them guarding facilities, which include the Comguards. There are a few places comstar had permanent guards at before the 4th war. They got tired of pirates taking their facility and getting it back wasn't easy. That is also hoping the pirates didn't decide to use the equipment for target practice.
When did Russia start beating the German people after WWII? Specific companies were immune to such problems, and the workers did not try to instigate any such actions. Orders will be obeyed. So if the Star Captain says don't mess with the Comstar personnel, then they won't. If they do, they are disciplined. Most will relay the order comes from above them, but it doesn't matter. Until the Star Captain does something that breaks with the Star Colonel, you will obey it as if it came from there.
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ghostrider
08/18/20 09:20 PM
66.74.60.165
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Can you go and fly a Russian Mig? A U.S Raptor or Warthog? Drive an Abrams or any T series Russian tank? How about any of their warships? So without any training, you can not only turn on, but get the coordinates right to send a message to another station light years from where you are, and hit it perfectly, as it needs to be? Even though it sound likely, comstar isn't going to just leave operations to just typing in a station or system to contact and have it all operate on it's own. And the sequence needed to even being to operate it would be require. One step out of sequence and you pop the system. Maybe even just program in three different computer languages? Brand new the HPGs would be much easier to use, but the IS ones were jury rigged. Not all, and not all badly, but the ability to use them would vary greatly.
Also, in your world of instant and automatic intel, what would comstar do when they found out you were training people to run the HPGs?
Immaterial? You said the spartans did not have contact outside of their own to influence their ways. It is immaterial that they had to trade with others in order to get what they needed? Gain intel to make sure then knew what was going on? And it is unlikely they did not adapt other ways into theirs to make them that much better. So the bs of being isolated doesn't hold. They did have their culture and ways influenced by others.
Where does it say the clans had social generals starting in 2947?
Politics has always been in the clans. Having to placate others, as well as arrange truces or agreements to hit others never disappeared completely. The destruction of the Wolverines and others are examples of that. But the fact that clan khans were staying in position longer and longer is a sure sign of politics allowing them to. Their bodies would not hold out as you said about Natasha. Late 30's is the implied time when they tend to be removed. The Wolf issues has a strong backing on the fact that upwards motions were slowed to almost a stop. The Falcon Khans was an extreme example of it, but it wasn't the only one in print.
It is printed that they had other sources of intel coming in, besides the Dragoons. Those were ignored as well. But even then, the 4th war did not send the IS back to the stone age. It should have shown them what they would face when they came in. The khans thought it was fantasy, so even if it was 3048 and they got the intel, which they did from the Outbound Light, they still didn't believe it. Yes. I could be an excuse on why they did so poorly, having 20 year old data to run on, but it does not mean you should not be prepared. And in the clans limited war, they were.
How many dropships go into a flat spin? Aerodynes are most likely, but spheroids are not as likely. So that is not very valid in this discussion. The fact that there is not limit given for jump jets on mechs or elementals negates the inability to use them when descending, and I have yet to hear of any elemental dropped from high altitude needing booster jets. The ones that normally need things like that are mechs that don't come equipped with jets.
The fact that the elemental suits are much smaller helps prevent the stain ending. Mech pilots tend to lack the understanding of not riding the jets to stop while 20 miles about the planet and do that every 500 feet. For elementals, their lives are at stake all the time, and they learn how to use the jets like they learn how to use their weapons, as it is a weapon. Jumping is far faster then running, and you can gain an advantage if you jump on the mech where it can't touch you. So the statement still stands. A suited elemental has a better chance of surviving a crash then a mech warrior does.
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Requiem
08/19/20 08:59 AM
1.158.133.26
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It seems as if you do not understand the rule of law and history.
How many local lords have instigated a cross border assault within the game and come out the better for it? When was the last time any Skye Lord initiated an attack across the border? Would any Lord dare considering who is in power during the 3050’s?
Also when your Liege Lord requests the use of your Jump-ship you are duty bound to provide it – thus making any further adventurism impossible.
The 4th Succession War proved that both the Federated Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth could amass a large jump-ship armada composing of both military and commercial ships.
Also in regards to intelligence isn’t this the purview of the states intelligence organisation and how efficient they are at accumulating information - they are experts in their field compared to the Clans.
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And how many forces does the local noble have? They could be the odd buyer of a lance of mechs every year that no one knows who it was.
Purchase License and Registration papers for those Machs – do you have an import Visa?
Considering that you keep on saying there is scarce number how hard is it to track all the Mechs in your realm once they leave the factory floor?
So yes if there is a scarcety of numbers every military force of evey lord on every world should be quantifiable – also the resident intelligence spy per world would keep a close eye on what the local lord has access to.
So no ceding, no rebellions ….
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The concept of omni tech isn't the issue. The issue is human nature.
Er, no….. the concept is logistical in nature – scarcity of resources to ensure the maximum amount of productivity with the limited amount available. And this is what an omni offers – 2 mechs per class (Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault) total of 8; that can then be utilized to maximum effect through the interchangeability of pods – ie. maximum bang for your buck!
This is where Government Laws and tax breaks to promote R&D and initiative process of business cycle come in to play.
Also when the Government inform the military industrial sector that they will be phasing out single weapon Mechs for omni they really have no option but to retool – whilst keeping one line open for spare parts for their previous single weapon mech.
[quote[ If you decide to force them to change to your standards, you become black listed.
Your company is hereby privatized and is the property of the House <insert name here>.
Wow that was exiting ….
Remember what happened to the last CEO that went doen this track … he ‘volunteered’ for the infantry corps, and his sacrifice will be remembered ……
No military industrial complex within the IS has the political power to go against a house Lord – they cannot pick up and leave, they cannot stop production they are dependent upon the house they work for their wealth …
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None of the houses bothered to finance such searches according to you.
Can I then ask what my forum entitled – House Archaeology Units – is about?
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Canon was using economics to limit advancements in some areas,
You do realize this assumption goes totally against Economics Theory – not only when old firms go out of business / move due to economies of scale / wages – but also to place these people back into work requires innovation. Warship production decreases unemployment, increases wages, increases standard of living conditions, increases the economy of those planets that produce parts – as has a knock on effect – that is if people have more wages they will spend it that helping other sectors of the world’s economies …..
Warship production is a great way to kickstart / keep an economy riding on a bull high.
Thus making their expense an important means of keeping the economy increasing ….
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The entire IS seems to be set that they do not want to make war more efficiently for lower numbers of units.
Huh?, efficiency increases the number of units produced – inefficiency decreases the number of units produced;
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They wanted the mechs to be the last line of defense,
Spear-point …
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Destroy the enemy before they hit the atmosphere, and you can retaliate at your leisure.
Hence warships …..
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The game seems to want combat, but not a slaughter for players.
Then what do you call the majority of the Cannon Clan Invasion Battles? How one sided were these?
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Comstar did have hired guards for their facilities
The Clans conquered a world and they did not attack ComStar’s forces? …. Really, where is this written.
As the stories have them kill everything they encounter
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There are a few places comstar had permanent guards at before the 4th war.
Where? …. I was under the impression it was due to ComStar’s fake attack upon the HPG facility ….
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When did Russia start beating the German people after WWII?
During WW2 and especially in the final days, and from then on ….. and no one was exempt ….
As for making a specific freeborn immune from a beating by a warrior …. Please do point out the passage where this was pointed out ……
Even if they were told not to the worst that could occur is a circle of equals …. However please do explain why a Clansman would reprimand another warrior for beating a freeborn …. And please do explain how this would not hurt their chanced of obtain a name?
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So without any training, you can not only turn on, but get the coordinates right to send a message to another station light years from where you are, and hit it perfectly, as it needs to be?
So the Clans don’t have HPGs – they are incapable of sending messages from one world to the next – and they are incapable of sending a message from the IS to the Clan home worlds for when they needed to vote for the second il-Khan.
Or did they return to the iS to kidnap ComStar Personnel to run their HPG stations and somehow there is an affiliate ComStar unit on the Clan Homeworlds.
If ComStar personnel are removed the Clans have people to take their place!
As for IS Houses all you need is one person who has been trained and they can re-create the manuals – and from there you can have a trained units to run the HPG stations as it is not as if they are going to update them on a regular basis and prove to the Great Houses that they have access to vast amounts of hidden technology.
As for the Spartans they society was established due to their own values to create their own culture the same as the Athenians …. Have a look at how many wars occurred between the city states due to the differences in culture.
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Where does it say the clans had social generals starting in 2947?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Political_Century
why call it the “Political” century then?
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How many dropships go into a flat spin? Aerodynes are most likely, but spheroids are not as likely.
Consider the many different ways a ball can fall through the x, y and z axis …… from a great height.
Again consider how NASA Lands a vehicle on Mars as well as the Egg Drop challenge …. They will be a smudge on the ground unless they have a parachute to slow the fall ….
Then consider terminal velocity ….
https://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/physics-of-skydiving.html
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/19/20 11:52 AM
66.74.60.165
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There have been more then a few cross border raids that turned out for the better. Just punishing certain units or even specific people have been done. Head hunting or assassinations being a prime example of this. Part of the pirates concept that comes up. Stopping research or building of things. Not many are really dealt with in detail.
Now the FS does not have a first lord that is the ultimate power. The FS formed from an agreement of 10 states, and with that, they do have an written agreement of what is allowed and what isn't. The clause Katherine used, is probably not unique to the FC agreement. The DC does have commanders that do raids and such on their own, and the coordinator can't do much to stop it. And honestly, both sides don't want to stop it, until it becomes a problem.
How are you going to track all the units, as some go to special units, or are sometimes lost. I have not heard of any registry departments in any of the nations for this. And if they did, the black market would not exist. The entire game would be based on pure numbers. And that makes it boring as you would know what you will face at any time, and where. Take Kincaid for instance. He was selling to the CC and how long did it take to figure this out? There are companies, such as Defiance, that sell to anyone. Yes, they sell to anyone. Specific mechs, like the Zeus would not be sold to the CC, but they could be bought by, what do you know, third and fourth parties. Front companies for almost anyone, as well as mercs. And this doesn't even cover things like finding SL properties with mechs and such in them. Raids do net enemy mechs as well.
You still don't understand the leaders can NOT just decide to steal factories from people. It sets up a bad environment for the others. It also causes all of your people to start questioning your attempts to become a dictator.
The omni concept should have been done sooner, but as said. The large rich CEOs would not bother trying it. Resources may be low, but they are getting rich. The weapons industry is necessary for the nations to survive. Having one factory shut down may well cause issues with supply lines. And I would love to see the LC/FS confiscate Defiance. It will not happen. Some companies are across the nations, so seizing one location will cause the rest to ignore any sort of dialoge with them, and possibly cause them to hire mercs to remove the factory from your ownership.
But the toltarian leadership you seem to want doesn't allow for anything but a simple outcome to everything. That just isn't possible.
The overthrow of leaders that had complete control shows this to be true. You can NOT control everything and everyone. You even attempt to try, and you will not be in power for very long.
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ghostrider
08/19/20 12:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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It's about complaining about canon in yet another thread with a concept that isn't true. The houses have, and continue to search for SL properties. Announcing them is not a smart idea, and it may well be covered in a simple, searching for resource mission for the normal military. Look for enemy secret bases, and what do you know. A Star League base is found here. Oh yeah. It wasn't labeled as searching for it.
I said canon uses economics to limit advancements. I did not say it was a great idea. In fact, I have been saying it is bs in most areas. Limited budgets do limit things that can be done. Sometimes a shortage of specific resources can limit what can be done. I do understand that warships are a huge money pit, and that if you can get around not having them, it would be a good concept, but as with any war unit. You have to stay ahead of the enemy if you want to not only survive but expand. I think the bs of you can't do this, but we did this instead is where problems lay in the game. Can't spend the money to build clan tech, but we can spend money to build an engine so expensive that it puts a warship to shame. And what good is that engine? Proof of concept. The money spent on research is good most of the time. In the XXXL engine, it was a proof of concept. But saying you can't advance your entire military with better weapons and equipment because of cost? That is pure BS. I could put it down as the companies refusing to do the research. But even that is pushing it.
Most companies get research grants by governments.
Efficiency of the units is what was meant there. You can do the same job with less people concept. Normally it would take say 12 mechs to secure an area, well what if you could do it with 9? The game does not want you to be able to take worlds with 12 mechs, yet they seem to do it with a few story settings. You could make a kingdom almost anywhere in the IS, if you could take worlds with a single mech company.
Also, with all the factories in the IS, having them efficiently making weapons of war, would do what they finally figured out in the 20 year update. The LC especially, would soon out produce everyone to the point of not really needing tactics, as you flood the fields with assault mech, so you can't use tactics to counter them. This is the very reason they had to break up the FC. The 3039 war would not have been lost without the bs that happened. The LC generals meeting every week and was wiped out. What the hell are XO's for? And the soldiers next in line? Hold your positions until further notice. Hmmm. Simple enough. Get someone else in there, or promote the person running the show now.
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ghostrider
08/19/20 12:30 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not just warships, but any capital weapon platforms that can do the job. Warships means you are a threat, as you can move them into the enemies territory. Having worlds guarded with something that isn't easy to move to a new system, gives you the added bonus of saying you are defensive.
Except for Turtle Bay, how many people were killed in a rampage? They did slowly destroy buildings until an assassin was brought forward, but they did not do so just for target practice. There was no executions just to make the commanders happy. And you missed the point. The PLAYERS are not supposed to commit horrible actions. There was no effort to depopulate worlds so the clan civvies could live there without locals.
Again, you put in things that were not in the story. The clans did not kill everything they ran into. More then a few units surrendered without a shot. Others were able to fight them off for a while. Still others were able to kick them off world, though the khans sent in more forces to retake the worlds.
But it is pretty simple. Comstar facilities are well marked, and when you have orders not the attack within say a klick of one, the warriors obeyed. Comstars WHITE painted units with the logo should be visible for a long ways out, and they would arrest any IS personnel that tried to use that buffer zone to avoid being hit. So yeah. I would be very difficult for Comstar to stay out of the fight around their facilities.
How many times was Focht beaten when asking taboo questions? Or insulting a warrior about their skills or honor? His staff that was with him? There was one story that had an Comstar person that one of the clan warriors was upset that they were killed in an uprising. And the clans are about personal skill, but they are also about following the orders given to them. If they let anyone do what ever they wanted, the clans would have fallen apart long before the invasion, as each strong leader would break off and form their own version of the clan. Maybe a good point would be when Aidan was being punished for killing the true born, while he was posing as a freeborn.
And worse could be the denial of any sort of advancement as well as being blacklisted from performing in a blood name event, though the grand melee might still be open.
'The Political Century was a period of time in Clan history directly following the Golden Century. It was characterized by sharp increases of inter-Clan conflict and political maneuvering, and gave rise to the Great Debate and the eventual invasion of the Inner Sphere. The Political Century ended with the Outbound Light incident and the beginning of Operation Revival.[1][2]
This sounds more like using politics for some clans to get their way, then using it to remain in power, as a social general would be. So your comprehensive reading skills looks off here.
Learn the definition of a flat spin. It is a form of, but not the exact definition of an uncontrolled spin. A flat spin is where the craft spins uncontrollably left to right or right to left according to the facing of the bottom. They are very dangerous to normal aircraft as it prevents the control surfaces from working and tends to deprive the engines of air.
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Requiem
08/19/20 08:46 PM
1.158.133.26
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There have been more then a few cross border raids that turned out for the better.
Generalities does not equate to facts, circa approximately 3050 …..
Date…..World………Units Involved……………………………Outcome
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the coordinator can't do much to stop it.
Declare them Ronin – a master less samurai
And again if both sides do not have the transport to engage in war in becomes a non event.
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How are you going to track all the units, as some go to special units, or are sometimes lost.
The Intelligence Department + Mercenary Relations Department + Administration = an accurate register.
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And if they did, the black market would not exist.
Mech Black Market would be consigned to the Periphery – all other Black market goods will still be readily available;
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The entire game would be based on pure numbers. And that makes it boring as you would know what you will face at any time, and where.
In a shell game this still requires knowledge as to the enemies disposition – how accurate is the information you receive prior to an invasion.
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There are companies, such as Defiance, that sell to anyone.
Where is this written as I must have missed in their latest prospectus? As wasn’t the description everyone uses as the Lyran’s premiere Mech facility – not everyone’s Mech facility ….
SL Mechs found and Raids – new mechs will be become registered.
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You still don't understand the leaders can NOT just decide to steal factories from people. It sets up a bad environment for the others. It also causes all of your people to start questioning your attempts to become a dictator.
You still do not understand that if vassals decide to go against their Lord there will be consequences – even their replacement with someone more agreeable …. Or the confiscation of their plant.
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The large rich CEOs would not bother trying it. Resources may be low, but they are getting rich.
It is not up to the CEO – is up to the military procurement division producing specific weapons procurement requests that would include omni pods – suggest reading on how the US military puts fort h a procurement request for a new weapon – it states the specifications required and the military industrial complex uses its R&D to produce the one off weapon by the due date – it then put’s it through testing to see who produced the best weapon – and it is at this stage the contract is signed for mass production.
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the totalitarian leadership
This is not a totalitarian regime – it is a Feudalism model in which the regional lords govern in the name of their Lord – but in doing so their must offer mounted fighters a fief (medieval beneficium) as well as to explain their actions before their Lord.
Your House Lord knows exactly what is happening within their realm – but for all external parties this is a complete unknown.
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and continue to search for SL properties
This requires a dedicated archeological team who have access to all the historical records who can them be sent to excavate any lead they find promising.
Otherwise it is just wandering around guessing where to dig or hoping someone will jet get lucky and find / trip over something.
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I said canon uses economics to limit advancements. I did not say it was a great idea.
Please do show me someone who would want to damage the economy from within to such an extent everyone gets poorer and the cost of goods increases at the same time.
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I do understand that warships are a huge money pit
Actually they are not a money pit …. Loot up the economics principle in regards to knock on effects of such projects such as building large infrastructure projects.
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Most companies get research grants by governments.
Really? Sorry but no this is not the case most companies pay for the R&D themselves then mass produce to recover costs - Pharmaceutical Industry is a good example of this.
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Efficiency of the units is what was meant there.
Over time with mass manufacturing and efficiency – costs decrease – so that where before you could only purchase 12 you can now purchase 16 for the same amount.
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The LC especially, would soon out produce everyone to the point of not really needing tactics, as you flood the fields with assault mech, so you can't use tactics to counter them.
This is nothing new …. America’s total war effort – Rosie the Riveter – WW2 – look at their production compared to the total world at the time – so how did the rest of the world react?
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Warships means you are a threat, as you can move them into the enemies territory.
This is why there are other strategies when it comes to warships – big wing fighter attacks – PT Craft - pocket warships etc.
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The PLAYERS are not supposed to commit horrible actions.
And yet it is OK for the TPTB to go down this track with the players only allowed to take it!
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The clans did not kill everything they ran into. More then a few units surrendered without a shot.
And were they allowed to keep their mechs or were they absorbed into the clans as ditch diggers for proving how cowardly they were? Again Clan Warriors only show respect to those that have proven themselves … and ComStar Adepts have yet to do so …. They will be treated as all freeborn are ….
Thus the idea that they will end up hating the Clans as all IS born people would …. The two cultures are just too diverse for one to accept the other ….
As for their facilities the Clans would not care about these – they only care about enemy forces and enemy bases – those that offer no resistance are not attacked.
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How many times was Focht beaten when asking taboo questions?
How about them moment he walked onto the Clan Warship when Clan Nova Cats’ LoreMaster attacked him due to a vision?
The clans stay unified by their culture and the strength of their bond to that culture that is imposed on them since birth
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This sounds more like using politics for some clans to get their way,
This also sounds like individuals getting their way through graft and corruption – getting friends to become named warriors so that they can assist me later with becoming Khan.
Wardens and Crusaders – two party political system – who does that remind you of ?
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Learn the definition of a flat spin.
Suggest looking at cricket bowlers or how about baseball pitchers – what can they do with the ball and in which way does it spin …… then apply this to a spherical object falling to the ground at a very rapid rate, the internal G-forces would be incredible and the varying degrees of pitch would also be very difficult to quantify …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/19/20 11:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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You would destroy your army because they didn't like you leaving their families open to be killed by the enemy? That you are diverting needed food and medicine to nobles that squandered theirs? Even a lack of payment will cause them to reject your orders. But it isn't a shock. You have shown thru the posts, you don't concern yourself with anything but absolute power, which is why you will not have many followers.
Showing you think there is an absolute way to stop mechs from being sold to those you don't want them to be. Registration is not going to prevent it, though it may slow down just how quickly enemies of the state will get them. And again, most companies are not under and exclusive deal with the nation they are in. Most will abide by not selling to the LC during a time of war, from factories in the FWL, but that will not stop them from doing so. It that was the case, the amount of Awesomes and Orions in other nations would be far less then what they are. This holds true for other mech producers as well. The entire weapons industry would go broke if they dealt with just their nation.
Vehicles are just the same as well. The Pike is ONLY produced in the MoC. The Hunter was an LC only design, which did not spread because of battle salvage. They are SOLD to other nations including the DC. The Bulldog is an FS design. So no. You can not stop the sales of weapons to other nations, including mechs.
And your little idea of not ransoming back worlds once taken comes into effect here. Deals can be made that one nation can buy x amount of product from the other nations weapon producers. Or even just demanded.
According to your statements, there is no worries about accurate count of invasion forces. You intel would have told you that the moment they left their base. So there is a conflict of which is correct.
What other mech, or even weapons producers come close to Defiances status in the LC? And selling to others, does not mean you provide entire RCTs to them. It could well be only 10 mechs a year, or something like that. Certain designs would be limited, as agreed upon with the LC government, but it will not stop Defiance from making money selling to all. It is also more likely they will sell parts to others. Which if you get the right combination, you can make those mechs, getting around the whole no sell issues.
The idea of keeping together the ENTIRE nation has got to be some give and take. You think only one person would be the target of your retaliation, but you will find that a lot more would back the entity that you are trying to extort. The other manufacturers in a nation will NOT allow you to just take over factories, as it leads to you eventually taking over THEIRS. And with your statements to date, that would happen. Even the DC and CC have got to allow some issues to go unpunished, as to do anything risks an even larger issue. One that you can not afford to come to pass.
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ghostrider
08/19/20 11:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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Send all the specs you want. You want our product, you take it the way we make it. Otherwise, shop elsewhere.
That is something that seems to be missed with demanding the companies change over. And worse, the cost per unit goes up, so your budget fall a lot shorter in buying things you need to keep safe. This could be used for the economic bs of keeping tech down, but they come up with things at are new crap shows it isn't really the case. The blazer is an example of this. Why bother with two lasers that fire at the same time, when you can just fire two lasers at the same time, or only one when heat is an issue? Because the gun was considered popular?
Inaccurate statements again. The house lords DON'T know all that is going on in their realms. And there is a limit to what a nation lord can ask of his vassals. Otherwise it is not a feudal society but a pure dicatorship. The regional lords as well as the rich and powerful would make sure you did not overstep what they consider to be bounds. Illusion of freedom does a lot to stop resistance to policies, but it affects others differently. Calling on a world that overproduces food to conserve does not work as well as a planet that relies on other worlds to supply them. Or tell them they have to conserve so others that aren't bothering to try to supply their people with food doesn't work.
Civil wars come about from this very concept. The SL was doing so before the fall. What happened? The house leaders actually sat back and laughed when the SL couldn't meet their threats.
And where does it say that there isn't teams being given the information available and not looking for them. Refer to the Galtor book. They had computers do a search to find out where SL bases were likely to be. More then a few, they found one, but it was already raided. Then the one on Galtor showed up, and as stated, they thought it would be raided as the DC had it for a hundred or so year. So search parties are given what they can find in historical information, but those still left require gut feelings and hunches. There is no map of SL locations available to any one. Not Comstar, not the clans, not the houses.
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ghostrider
08/20/20 12:03 AM
66.74.60.165
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There are a lot of people in power today that are doing just that. Creating economic slavery by making sure the poor can't do anything, while increasing their pockets. If you really have to ask who, then your analysis abilities are poor at best.
Best pay attention to what is going on in the world today. Billions are handed out looking for the Corona virus cure. There is plenty of others that have spent billions of tax payers money to find cures for things, and most are put in the pockets of the CEO's and owners. The research companies do pay for isn't that large and a lot of that is a tax write off.
And the companies don't mass produce their medicine to recover their spending. They cost far more then what they should, and have laws in effect to make sure generics do not interfer with that for a while. The Epipen is a good example. It was found that you could make it for less then 10 bucks, yet the pharamacutical company was charging 30 or more times that.
Did you actually read the statement? Having efficient machines, ie MECH AND TANKS, is something the game does not want to see. If you can hold onto a location with 9 mechs instead of 12, then you don't need to spend as much on more units. So the Panther with a clan erppc is worth more then a part of Panthers without it. Double sinks to cool it would be in there as well. Distance, and damage being the main factory, but easier to hit as the lower ranges are extended as well. So the extra 400,000 c-bills to buy the ERPPC panther is more efficient that buying a pair of normal panthers in this case. It also makes the developers have to come up with threat that could not exist, like how WOB came about. Only the shadow strike allowed them the advantage, then changing to nukes kept them from being wiped out quickly. There isn't anything that could really come close anymore from a single entity.
Losing the ability to see context in statements? The statement of the LC out producing everyone was meant to show why the developers had to nerf them and the FC. The actions of the U.S for WWII had mixed results to their efforts. The allies love it as they were going to benefit from it, while the Axis hated it, because they would have to fight against it. Not sure why that was even said.
What does other tactics have to do with using defense platforms to avoid making others feel threatened instead of warships?
The general excuse for hitting another nation is the fact they are a threat to yours. Not having a warship to attack with removes part of that threat. The defenses means they are less likely to survive if they attack you.
Do you even know how to create a story that is exciting and causes the reader to cheer the heroes? There is always something horrible that happens that the heroes have to fight against odds, that could destroy their homes, and worlds for sci fi. That is unless you are writing from the villains side of things. Then you don't want the enemy using your tactics. How would the rest of the IS respond to the clans wiping out the FC and DC? They would love watching all sides bleed, then hit them when both are weakened. The CC and FWL did not join with the DC because they liked them. They did it as there was no other way they would survived against the FC. Comprehension failed again.
Did you not read or understand that the agreement the clans had with comstar, is they respected the entity for keeping the HPG network going among the barbarians of the IS?
As it was, the Clans had much respect for ComStar - a living legacy of the old Star League, committed to its eventual restoration - and hoped the organization could help them in their purpose.
Next falsehood.
You did not read the article of the political age.
It is about the crusaders and wardens forming into large blocs when like minded clans slowed down hostility to each other. There is nothing in there about warriors using politics to stay in office after they were too weak to even qualify as a warrior.
Next time you want to use some off the wall thing like baseball say so. The military and normal definition of a flat spin is to lose the ability to control a craft due to it spinning on a flat level and not getting air flow over the controls in order to pull out. This is normally accompanied by the engines starving for oxygen as the exhaust is going into the air intakes because of the spin.
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Requiem
08/20/20 08:07 PM
1.158.133.26
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You would destroy your army because they didn't like you leaving their families open to be killed by the enemy?
Really? …. Comprehension of issues required, as how, where and evidence as to argument? Otherwise no validity …..
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Showing you think there is an absolute way to stop mechs from being sold to those you don't want them to be.
The majority of Western Countries throughout the modern world have armaments Licenses – extension of existing law.
As not only can you restrict armaments going to the wrong individual / group but also the government receives income in the form of licenses (to Pilot the vehicle, for the registration of the vehicle, and for the purchase of explosives) and also tax on the sale / purchase of the ‘Mech.
Show me a government who is not interested in weapons control and tax?
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And again, most companies are not under an exclusive deal with the nation they are in.
Can I laugh now? Any basic research will indicate licenses required including export licenses.
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The entire weapons industry would go broke if they dealt with just their nation.
Sorry no – recession proof industry when the major activity of the government is war.
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So no. You can not stop the sales of weapons to other nations, including mechs.
Have you paid attention to the how this occurs with most inter country sales of arms packages in the world and how this occurs?
All sales require the acceptance of their government – in this case the House Lord.
Thus there should be major border restrictions, each house should live and die with their own military industrial facilities.
Ever seen the West / East Block selling to non strategic partners and without their Presidents’ tick of approval?
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And your little idea of not ransoming back worlds once taken comes into effect here.
Ghostrider, this was your suggestion not mine.
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According to your statements, there is no worries about accurate count of invasion forces.
Please re-read as above – as this is not what was asserted above.
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What other mech, or even weapons producers come close to Defiance’s status in the LC?
Evidence please.
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The other manufacturers in a nation will NOT allow you to just take over factories
This is the last action by the government due to recalcitrant CEO … in all likelihood the Government would find a close relative / another noble family to take over the position who understands their position …..
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Send all the specs you want. You want our product, you take it the way we make it.
Go down this path and the business will fall ….. as no R&D has ever taken this attitude towards anything …..
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Inaccurate statements again. The house lords DON'T know all that is going on in their realms. And there is a limit to what a nation lord can ask of his vassals.
This is what the internal security force is for as well as ALL the Government departments …. Try again.
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Calling on a world that overproduces food to conserve does not work as well as a planet that relies on other worlds to supply them.
This is why a government department exists to know this information about every planet within their Lords House.
The same as a government department exists to interpret the Census information to plan for future developments – and another exists for the day-to-day needs of every state / county etc …..
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Civil wars come about from this very concept.
Please do indicate a civil war in regards to this?
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They had computers do a search to find out where SL bases were likely to be.
And wouldn’t those computers belong to a dedicated archeology government department who can then review all information to check the computers’ findings?
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There is no map of SL locations available to any one.
Then someone was not doing their job during the SL era – show me any military that does not know the exact location of every enemy base (and in the case of the Clans a base that their forbearers once occupied) and what is within that base <to the best of their intelligence apparatus.> To believe there isn’t a map is lunacy once again ….. only the destruction of all records by all the Houses and ComStar and the Clans at the same time could have ensured this level of information loss ….
Again this is on the same level as the loss of all knowledge …. Sorry but it just cannot be considered to be a plausible argument when viewed rationally …..
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There are a lot of people in power today that are doing just that. Creating economic slavery by making sure the poor can't do anything, while increasing their pockets.
The Overall Economy is therefore progressing along in a positive direction
The underlying ethical issues is not what was being discussed.
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Did you actually read the statement? Having efficient machines, ie MECH AND TANKS, is something the game does not want to see.
Really? ….. consider every modern world war to date and their production processes
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The statement of the LC out producing everyone was meant to show why the developers had to nerf them and the FC.
And this is why the game is where it is right now, not understanding their target market – boys own adventure books have gone out of style – the target market has matured and desires a more believable gritty story – again look at the competition Warhammer and the quality of their merchandise in comparison. Unless something is done, and soon, Battletech as a table top game / novels will fold – leaving only computer games.
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Not having a warship to attack with removes part of that threat. The defenses means they are less likely to survive if they attack you.
Shield meet sword – sword meet shield
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Then you don't want the enemy using your tactics. How would the rest of the IS respond to the clans wiping out the FC and DC?
How many stories are written from the point of view that their home has been conquered and that the protagonist must re-build the nation – kick out the invaders – and restore their land to its former glory?
Again, if you have good authors this can become a good story ….
Case in point – CC falls to the FC – Kali and Sun Tzu end up with their aunt – Sun rebels and tries to reform the CC – he is killed by his sister Kali (who now appears to be a good person on the FC side) – but, it is she who plots in the dark to reform a new CC through a political and military guile ….. it is she who is being the spider waiting to strike ….
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Did you not read or understand that the agreement the clans had with comstar, is they respected the entity for keeping the HPG network going among the barbarians of the IS?
Since when did the Clans Warriors ever respect freeborn as well as those that are not warriors as well?
Try again ….For the Clans Respect must be earned in combat …. Remember they are supposed to Mongol warriors and
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It is about the crusaders and wardens forming into large blocs when like minded clans slowed down hostility to each other.
Please re-read? …. It was about political parties!
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Next time you want to use some off the wall thing like baseball say so.
Understanding the concept of similarities.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/20/20 08:09 PM)
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ghostrider
08/20/20 08:26 PM
66.74.60.165
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Show me a weapons manufacturer that is not selling under the table to make money and avoid paying taxes. This is how they make money and friends in most areas. The black market is full of weapons sold to them at a lower cost, so they can keep funds without paying the government taxes. They also give a few samples of their stuff to open up new markets.
The governments that aren't dictatorships love to have all sales taxed if they can. A few stinger missiles allows them to open a factory is say Iran to make money that the U.S or the U.K don't know about. They can get around things by making 'knock off' of the weapons and say they have no idea where they came from.
You honestly think companies don't get around licenses? Bribe to certain people is rampant. Smuggling is yet another way. Shipping thru another country, or even building the items there can get around that. Why do you think so many companies pay less in taxes then the person sweeping up a construction site? Why so many companies are being sued for evading taxes owed in more then a few nations.
There are more then a few weapons manufacturers that went broke because the government didn't buy from them. Most declare bankruptcy and open up under a different name. Gets around taxes, as well as removes any investigations into the old company. How much did Boeing or Airbus lose when they had the orders cancelled by buyers?
There are a lot of companies that sell to others without any sort of approval from rulers. Multinational companies do it all the time. That is why there is a thing called a boycott.
Earthworks is not going to wait for Hanse to sign off on them selling the FWL or CC mechs. Aldis, I think is the manufacturer of Demolishers and Shcreks are not going to care if Takashi said they can not sell to the LC. Even those in a single nation do not listen to the rulers at times.
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