ghostrider
02/06/21 03:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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The clans do NOT bid in support units unless they are part of the fighting force that is attacking, then that changes them from support to combat units. They do not bid in the techs that repair the units between battles. They do not bid in the people that recover the units, nor do they bid in the ships in orbit carrying those supplies. Only the combat units are bid. Not sure why this fact is not sinking in. It is printed as such in multiple locations.
Now they should have them figured out to make sure the supplies do get to the fighting units, but again. They are NOT part of the bid.
Think about this. If they were, then all the Diamond Shark units that went with them, would have to be included in each clans bid, as they were SUPPORT ships, moving cargo.
Still suggesting the canon version had the large Aerowings in order to take out anything that moves?
Guess you should think about this one. If they did have those warship killing fighters, why bother with the periphery? Why not just destroy those forces they have invading their worlds and roll them back? Destroying what they know is far easier then hoping you find their supply lines. It also prevents other worlds from falling and gives you time to take out the ground forces on worlds they are at. And this does not mean they have all the intel in the universe as it is continuously suggested.
The overzealous clans would agree to leave other clans supplies alone as they are moved to the IS? What was that about Mongols and superiority? There is no way they would agree to this. Most didn't think they even needed that much. They would not go back and send more once they figured out how wrong that was. Even the Sharks had issues keeping up with supplying the Falcons PGCs. They would raid others, just to avoid having to suggest they were wrong about needing them, and having them sent. 6 month delay? Not a way in the universe that they would wait that long. They continued to press forward.
SO now you understand why the ORIGINAL exodus road could NOT be used by Task Forces Serpent to head to the clans home worlds? This is what I have been saying for a while. It is highly unlikely that even the route near the clan home worlds was used. They came in on an arc. Not straight like the invasion suggests.
Oh yeah. Reread what Safecon is, and really think about the definition. They grant the ATTACKER freedom to land forces. It does NOT protect the defender. So bidding for the supplies in the route would NOT be covered by Safecon. Those with the supplies would be defenders. The definition is completely opposite of it.
There is a small point with jumping many ships into a system. The concept of knowing where the other ships are at, you could calculate enough to avoid jumping on top of each other, though there is a question in there that asks just how many ships is too many at a time? The large area you can jump into gives some room for this, but moving ships may not allow them to clear each other.
If they have a constantly precise location for jumping, this would allow enemy forces to position themselves to strike as soon as you materialize.
The read between the line person couldn't read between the lines to figure out that the clans had the ability to move partial space stations? The Dragoons had one with them when they arrived. Which begs to ask why no one had ever questioned them about it.
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Requiem
02/06/21 04:52 AM
1.158.229.22
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The clans do NOT bid in support units
Operation Revival is NOT a normal battle – it is travelling six months distant in order to invade a corridor of approximately 150 worlds in order to reach terra all the while whilst competing against other Clans in a race to reach Terra first - it is undeniably obvious that any bid MUST include logistical support – as an adequate logistical support will have an effect upon the momentum of battle and must be taken into consideration when racing to win the prize that is il-Clan …. It is a total clan ability to win NOT just the warriors on the front line!
Military logistical support units ARE attached, it is not as if they can be removed at any time. Consider major invasion support fleets – Operation Overlord / Operation Neptune WW2 etc.
In my opinion, stipulating they are separate is completely illogical when it comes to undertaking a major invasion.
So, is there any written documentation to the effect that clearly stipulates this fact or is just how you interpret the information provided?
Book, Page No., and exact quote please.
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Why not just destroy those forces they have invading their worlds and roll them back?
Again pitiful writing is not an excuse …..once warships are brought into the game then there must be a means of neutralizing them – and as the TPTB do not allow retrofitting drop-ships into PT craft these leaves but one option – big wing attack grups armed with nukes – post Turtle Bay every House has the excuse they need to start an atomic war!
Really someone should have cracked open some history books or at least obtained the services of a military historian where they could have asked what if questions.
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The overzealous clans would agree to leave other clans supplies alone as they are moved to the IS?
In the interest of efficiency – yes one route to the IS delivered under Safcon to centralized space station – there each Clan collects their logistics. Once within the IS invasion corridor, however, they become fair game for acquisition trails.
As this is just your basic hub and spoke logistical support arrangement after all
Anything else is completely inefficient and will require a massive warship navy in order to protect it from other Clans who could quite easily curtail the momentum of their rival through the acquisition of their logistical fleets.
And where was it even mentioned within any book that rival Clans utilized this quite obvious tactic?
In all reality why didn’t the Jaguars and Falcons do this to the Wolves as in reality it is not beyond their ability? And would have easily slowed their progression within the IS to a crawl due to a lack of consumables as well as replacement warriors.
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….safcon….
“ …. is an agreement where the defending party guarantees to not fire on the attacker while en route to the site agreed for a Trial, a means of ensuring that only elements bid for the Trial are involved and to protect valuable DropShips and JumpShips from harm.”
…. It is an agreement where the invading Clans guarantee to not fire on the military logistical forces en route to the IS invasion corridor (ie the site of the trial) as a means of ensuring to protect the valuable Dropships and Jumpships from harm …. Once within the IS they thus can become part of the involved Trial ……
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If they have a constantly precise location for jumping, this would allow enemy forces to position themselves to strike as soon as you materialize.
Film – Wing Commander – for this to occur it requires an absolute confirmation, by the enemy, as to the materialization point …. Has any force within the IS or Clans been able to acquire this information prior to the jump?
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Which begs to ask why no one had ever questioned them about it.
The real question is why no one took it from them … then retreated into void with it ….. again very bad writing as all the questions must be addressed.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/06/21 11:56 AM
66.74.60.165
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We have gone over this several times. The clans do not include units like the PGCs into bids unless they are there to fight in the front lines. Why would anything like a tech be bid in? They are always with the combat units, yet there has never been a batchall that has stated the 3 stars of Beta techs would be part of a bid. They do not create any sort of fear.
Just need to make sure you understand not bid into the force, but are still a part of it is understood. There is no way the clans would survive the invasion without them. It is the fact they are not listed in the invasion roster.
Warships should have remained dead in the game, but without them, the clans would lose a lot of their threat factor. The larger number of dropships would not have been as much of a threat, which would have allowed the IS to use their aerospace forces to stop and roll back the clans. Without the ability to wipe out a combat group of the IS quickly, like a warship could, the invasion would have had to resort to all invading and even then bogging down.
The concept of tech superior, yet number inferior invaders attacking is a tried and true concept. The IS DID start building warships and partially evening the score there. Drama effect to cause uncertainty as well as desperation is a way to make a story.
The balance of forces required the warships to make the clans threat more realistic. The sheer number of units the IS could throw at them would have made it unbelievable that the clan could do that much without the threat of losing their space fleet.
There was no such agreement to allow supplies to make it to the IS safely. I can see why you would want to suggest that, as it means the IS would have been more likely to disrupt their flow, since none of it would be guarded. Newsflash. They guarded the entire line. The clans trials would make sure they they were not destroyed as each clan would try to claim anothers supplies. That is the only 'agreement' they would make.
Ah. Now you are starting to understand issues with fleets jumping together into a system in tight packs. There should be a limit to just how many ships can jump at the same time into the same system. A thousand ships WILL start causing overlap in jump fields, or be scattered throughout the entire jump area. Calibration of a jumpship made in Galax would not has be precisely the same as a ship made at Defiance. Just that little bit off, should well cause a tight fleet major issues like the jump wash.
Sorry. I should have specified that it was why no one questioned the Dragoons on how they had a station that the IS has not built in over 300 years. As for why no one tried to take it, there are several reasons that could be. The main one is the length of time it takes to prepare it to be moved. I seriously doubt one jumpship could do so.
The station alone would say something isn't near being right. As the books imply that stations are built on site and don't move thru jumping, just inspecting it would allow for bringing in battlestations. Maybe even reinventing the Yardships.
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Wick
02/06/21 02:57 PM
173.247.25.195
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Sorry but no, I disagree, when considering the forces that they are planning to commit this MUST INCLUDE all support forces (military logistics) necessary
But a Clan CAN change their plan to suit the requirements. If another disagrees, then they can fight a Trial of Refusal over it.
You are arguing that the Clans had to know exactly what would happen. Nova Cat clairvoyance aside, this is impossible. Things change as the campaign progresses and the Clans had to adjust to them. In some cases those changes did not sit well with the Clans that weren't part of the invasion, and Trials were fought over them. The need to bring even more reserves forward to fill out more PGCs for garrisoning duty brought Trials of Refusal from Clans like the Ice Hellions, which eventually morphed into Harvest Trials when the invading Clans realized they could just take the soldiers they needed from other Clans rather than defend the decision to do so from their own resources.
Even ignoring Trials as away to provide reinforcements, Clan bidding process generally involves bidding both a main attack force, and bidding a reserve force. Operation Revival was basically bid in the Grand Council as four Clans as the main force and another three Clans as reserve, thus establishing the main force/reserve model as a standard form of the process. It is further understood that each invading Clan (and the three reserve Clans) bid a certain number of Clusters to the attack (presumably nearly all of their front-line galaxies), but its also possible that they bid their entire Clan as reserve, which could include typically non-combatant forces.
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In not understanding the significance (role) of military logistics as well as a loss depletion report this demonstrates a complete lack of understanding modern combat
They didn't have to understand "modern combat" - they only had to understand Clan combat as of the 31st century, and then adapt to Inner Sphere combat of the same era. Guerilla warfare and rebellious populations were not something they were accustomed to dealing with, and that required a change in their plans.
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safcon does extend to logistics transport
Not explicitly, but I agree that is is implicit. There is no glory or honor in destroying or capturing an enemy's resources without a fight. Thus supply convoys and such are generally not molested. How the Inner Sphere treats Jumpships is basically how the Clans treat anything else that isn't military. In both cases an aggressor occasionally breaks the rules to punish the other side. Unless there was sound reason, the Clans would certainly deem it dezgra.
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Considering the number of ships involved it would be reasonable to expect that upon translating from a Jump you will need to move your ship so that those coming behind you do not end up jumping right on top of your ship killing everyone on both ships ….
As previously discussed (maybe in another thread), the jump "point" is not one single spot in space that all inbound and outbound craft must occupy. It is a very large area of space. "Point" is a bad term for it: jump area would be more correct.
Multiple ships can jump into or out of a jump point/area simultaneously, assuming they are far enough for each other to not have their jump fields overlap. It is assumed that the computers onboard jumpships, combined with the vast area involved make collisions virtually impossible (maybe once a century it occurs but I know of no canon examples.)
The SLDF certainly had a gigantic fleet which would increase the chances of collision, but they were also friendly units so their computers could work in tandem to ensure no two ships occupied the same target space in the next system. Thus, the jumpships do not need to expend fuel to move out of the way of other craft. Canon also explains that jumpships can arrive in the proper orientation to perform recharging. So all that remains is station keeping, which is a low fuel consumption activity, possibly even powered by the collecting sail itself rather than fuel reserves. (And this disregards the earlier fact I pointed out that a ship could fully recharge in far less time that it would take to fall into the gravity well such that station keeping is merely a matter for docking purposes, and if the dropships aren't detaching during the Exodus then they could do without using the station keeping engines at all.)
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I would also like to point out the problem that if you do not use your engine for 2 years then expect it to work after this period of time just because of the argument that it worked the last time I used it (2 years ago) is a little bit strange ….
Humans have spacecraft today that approach this, and maybe exceed 2 years. New Horizons for example went 14 months between course corrections but I can't find longer examples because few space missions go 2+ years between the need.
Furthermore, canon provides numerous examples of SLDF or early Succession War craft (jumpships, warships, and dropships) that still work after rediscovery. If these ships can go centuries without use, a mere two years on the Exodus is nothing.
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Book, Page No., and exact quote please.
Since you asked for it, regarding supply bases, Warriors of Kerensky page 18, "... seizing control of Deep Periphery realms to serve as staging posts (for example, the Khwarazam Empire and Chainlaine Isles.)" Thus, canon states that some of the supply depots exist in 3049.
Regarding safcon for non-combatant spacecraft, WoK page 120 "Even in those cases when Clan ships are not approaching a world to engage in trial, the inbound vessels may broadcast a 'beam of neutrality' ... avoiding any hostile actions from the occupying troops." I seriously doubt the entire invasion road was heavily guarded against attack from other Clans with this mechanism in place. Even assuming a small number of Warriors on-site, it may boil down to a hand-to-hand combat battle over the resources if mechs aren't available. I mean, if the defender bids a star of lightly armed second-line warriors guarding the supply depot or a single tank, the attacker can't rightly march in with a Timber Wolf. Spheroid forces might bring a whole lance to wipe them out, but the Clan way is to make it a more even fight.
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I should have specified that it was why no one questioned the Dragoons on how they had a station that the IS has not built in over 300 years. As for why no one tried to take it, there are several reasons that could be. The main one is the length of time it takes to prepare it to be moved. I seriously doubt one jumpship could do so.
The station alone would say something isn't near being right. As the books imply that stations are built on site and don't move thru jumping, just inspecting it would allow for bringing in battlestations. Maybe even reinventing the Yardships.
People did ask, and the Dragoons simply shrugged it off as Star League tech, which in the early 31st century was an answer that difficult to disagree with.
No one tried to take it because the Dragoon's were a serious force to contend with, with ample aerospace defense and the Seventh Kommando available to deter any marines trying to occupy the station. And to attempt would make an enemy of a very powerful mercenary group: a reputation that would not suit you well when negotiating with other mercenaries who will fear similar treatment. The Combine was the first and only one to make a move on it, and the station was destroyed when it become evident the Seventh Kommando was on the verge of taking it back.
As far as moving it, it was modular and could be deconstructed into smaller parts, each attaching to a jumpship docking collar. I don't know if its ever been said how many parts, but the Dragoons have a massive transport capacity. Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook page 6 describes a seven ship fleet with two Monoliths and three Star Lords, and likely Invaders as the remaining two, giving them 44 docking collars, but the rest of the book also provides them with exactly 44 dropships of various classes, indicating they either added dropships at some point between 3005 and 3030, had to add a jumpship during this period, one of the remaining two jumpships is larger than Invader-class, or by 3030 they had to make two trips to move all their forces. So its unlikely the Hephaestus breaks down into more than 4 pieces.
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Requiem
02/06/21 03:13 PM
1.158.229.22
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Batchall – “The two sides then bid for what forces will participate in the contest.”
And this is where the wheels fall off – when reading the rules the term “forces” utilized – forces relates to ALL types of units within the overall military deployment ie their complete TO&E – it does not just relate to the offensive units! When considering D-day does anyone just consider those utilized within Overlord? No they must also consider Neptune!
So again the TPTB completely mishandled their own rules and their own initial bids and were therefore forced to introduce the PGCs in order to fix the mathematics of the game – however when investigating each clans TO&E they only had a very small number that in NO WAY could have fixed their garrison problems, then there is the issue of what happens when a closed society is introduced to an open society etc etc …..
When considering an invasion logistics and logistics fleet numbers MUST be included! – though the major issue is that no one even decided to write these forces into the game as well as any form of a schedule / complement as to logistical support …and in so doing created a one sided and completely dull story that lacked any form of believability (especially when it comes to replacement sibko numbers) and when it comes to considering all the dimensions of war – especially when it comes to considering cause and effect …..
Also what about the 20 year update TO&E for each house and then the second House books are printed – what ever happened to the each houses forces? Sorry but I cannot and will not consider the invasion story believable ….. I consider the entire history 3039 onwards not that great, and as such requires a massive re-write …. The story is just NOT believable
Can anyone even consider the war of 3039 or Turtle Bay or Huntress or crating single weapon mechs as a response to clan omni mechs issues believable?
Can anyone believe the houses response to the Clan invasion?
Warships
Problem is naval forces are and always will be an integral part of the military – they cannot be removed – thus they are the true king of the battlefield – then, in strategic importance are aerospace fighters and after them finally BattleMechs …
If one side is has them then there must be parity for the other side … thus if the Clans have Warships the IS must be provided with either PT craft or nukes otherwise the story can only be considered to be wandering into the ridiculous!!!!!!!!! And this is what occurred you cannot put the biggest gun on the battlefield and expect both sides not to use / attack them especially post Turtle Bay – as again Clans actions define their intentions and intentions derive an equal and opposite response from IS Houses – and in this case this can only be one – NUCLEAR WAR! In the absence of the IS not having warships of their own or PT craft …..
The only way to limit naval forces is via the Ares conventions – restricting their ability to close on a world and forbidding their use in orbital bombardments ….
Otherwise Ground forces must be allowed Naval energy weapons to strike at them from the ground ….
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The clans trials would make sure they they were not destroyed as each clan would try to claim another’s supplies.
Then why wasn’t there any battles for each other’s logistics included in the history?
Naval battles for entire fleet’s of logistical materials should have been considered as a means of disrupting competitor Clan forces – especially with regards to Falcon and Wolf
Again the canon story has no real credibility when drilling down to the nuts and bolts ….
Space stations
How many people are required to make a space station
How much resources are required? How will deviating these resources affect ‘Mech production due to a decrease in available metals?
Again there is next to no information as to understand what is going on just an overarching statement that it is there!
I would also like to point out where these stations are built – why wouver told yu build them so far distant from the front lines - shouldn’t they be almost be on top of the invasion corridor in order to reduce time required to resupply forces on the front lines?
Again this makes absolutely no strategic sense whatsoever unless you are trying to hide them from rival Clan Naval forces …. But that doesn’t matter as the Clan Khans (experts in warfare?) didn’t even consider this tactic …..
Sorry but I am not impressed …. Re-write please!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/06/21 03:41 PM
1.158.229.22
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The Khwarazm Empire and the Chainelane Isles was discovered and captured during Clan’s journey to the IS prior t the start of Operation Revival – they were not existing supply bases for the invasion – they only became such in the years after if at all ….
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Regarding safcon for non-combatant spacecraft, WoK page 120 "Even in those cases when Clan ships are not approaching a world to engage in trial, the inbound vessels may broadcast a 'beam of neutrality' ... avoiding any hostile actions from the occupying troops."
Let’s complete the full narrative …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Safcon
Many Clan WarShips and JumpShips will broadcast a message declaring their neutral status when arriving at a system and not engaging in a Trial. This can be considered a type of safcon, but any opponent is not required to honor it.
“, but any opponent is not required to honor it.”
So where are the Naval battles for entire fleets of Clan logistics!
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No one tried to take it because the Dragoon's were a serious force to contend with
Can I laugh now? Compared to an entire House they are not that serious ….. and what would happen if two or more houses decided to kill of the wolves at the same time?
You can build a mercenary force too large and as such will be required to be destroyed as it is a threat – as seen by the DC reaction
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The Combine was the first and only one to make a move on it
Marik civil war?
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As far as moving it, it was modular and could be deconstructed into smaller parts, each attaching to a jumpship docking collar.
And what about those created by the clans were they also modular – as the rules say space stations can’t be?
One rule for one group and one rule for another group
Sorry but I am not impressed ….. re-write please
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/06/21 04:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clans aren't the IS when raiding supplies from each other. They use a batchall to create the conflict in which to win the supplies from the enemy. Goals and number of forces are stated during it. The defender could very well say one mechanic with a wrench defends this station, and the aggressor would try to bid a force so as to make the attack close to even, if they can. Safecon would be foolish to give, especially since the attacker would be coming in to take your equipment and you have a very limited defense for, so the next attacker has be worried about as well. Reinforcements are not coming quickly.
And as the clans are more likely to lose face due to not having enough supplies, taking them from another clan would be far more honorable. It hurts the clan losing those supplies more, as you lose the supplies and face for not being able to protect your bases.
Again. When has any bid included who the repair crew was? Or even that there was one there? The clans do not include support units in their bid. PERIOD. It is printed that the clans do not include support units. They explain this with the PGCs being brought up.
What is maintenance for? Oh yeah. To keep something in working order. So you are suggesting that the entire time the ships engines are shut off, they get no maintenance done, so they could malfunction when needed. Good to know that you don't have a clue on keeping things working even if they aren't being used. Even with lithium batteries, the warships engines would have to be used, if for nothing more then station keeping while the sails are collecting power.
Life isn't fair. So far, several countries in the world had gotten overrun by others, with weapons the loser did not have, nor could get in order to stop their fall. Nuclear weapons being a big one. It took time for others to gain that weapon. It was simple compared to building a warship. Even naval weapons were taking time as testing them and refining things does take time. Some flaws do not show up the first time you use it. Hell, some don't show up until years afterwards, and that isn't even going into the manufacturers covering things up, like the Cameron Battleship in the game.
For the land war game, warships represent something that can not be fought against on the ground. Land based naval weapons are a fact in the game, though retconned in afterwards, like the SDS entry says. Part of that defense was land based weapon systems.
And again. The Ares convention was a piece of paper the houses ignored during wars. A few houses continue to ignore parts of it every time then enter into a fight. Poisoning water supplies is one such part ignored by the DC. It is only as good as the words of the current leaders. No way to really enforce it in the IS.
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ghostrider
02/06/21 04:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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You do understand that you just countered your trying to use Safecon to stop clans from taking other clans supplies?
The idea of safecon is that it allows the DEFENDER to let the ATTACKER land without being shot at. There is NOTHING there that says the ATTACKER can not strike at the defender. So there is nothing but defense forces stopping the attacker from taking supplies.
Again, the one location defense of the realm comes out. What prevents a house from sending a massive force against the Dragoons, or anyone for that fact, and wiping them out? You have to protect your assets from others. Something that seems to be missing from the statements provided in the threads. You can NOT protect a world from invasion from a single point. It is even more impossible to do so with having forces only on a central world of a large space organization. This is yet another show that tactics is not a strong point in plans.
You pull forces from one region, and it will be attacked when information gets out. Even pirates will raid with abandon until you can get back there. And that will cost you dearly, if you remove the defensive units protecting factories. Those out laying units do provide defense for the factory garrison as they can be called in or harrass the enemy. Basic tactics. Tried and true, and shown as required. You must guard something in order to try and prevent it's destruction or capture. Going in afterwards means you are likely to lose it entirely.
Rewriting the game history is done by retcon, as they are not going to just start from scratch. This is why more holes are forming. TPTB don't seem to be looking over their own history, and just adding in things that don't fit.
I might think it is because they spilled beer or coffee on their paperwork that had the figures and didn't realize what was lost. Then just put in things without realizing they conflicted with other.
But as we suggested a while back, they will not do like D&D does, and redo the entire game. Which might well be the only way to get it all on the same level. Rules first, then writing it. It can NOT be the other way around.
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Requiem
02/06/21 11:11 PM
1.158.229.22
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The clans aren't the IS when raiding supplies from each other. They use a batchall to create the conflict in which to win the supplies from the enemy.
When Willie Sutton was asked why he robbed banks, he replied ‘because that’s where the money is.’
The hypothetical principle is the same here - when obtaining supplies for the apocalypse will you either use a shopping cart or will you drive a semi up to the rear gate and go for the entire warehouse?
Why would you create a batchall for limited supplies that have already been allotted to individual units when you can just as easily send out your Navy and take the entire fleet of jump-ships, drop-ships, crew, all logistics (this also included replacement Mechs, fighters, elementals etc) and all replacement personnel (warriors and techs etc) and in so doing effectively kneecap your rival Clan at the same time – making them extremely vulnerable to attack by other Clans as well as the IS (as too many failures and they will never be allowed to be Il-Clan – and effectively removing them from the race!) as it will take another six months or more before the next supply fleet arrives within the IS – and this is after all what Clan Politics is striving for, humiliating your enemy and your rivals whilst proving your Clan is superior to all others, is it not?
Remember the Clans are in no way allies they are competitors for the highest prize that can be obtained in their society and which Khan would allow another to take that prize from them? – and remember as far as the Clans are concerned the end justifies the means! And this is all within the rules – thus is green!
So unless you want to start a massive naval war within the deep periphery you have but one choice (which also confirms to the Clans tenant of waste / efficiency in all things) …. Safcon until logistics reach the front line units.
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Again. When has any bid included who the repair crew was? Or even that there was one there? The clans do not include support units in their bid. PERIOD.
AGAIN – this is NOT a simple attack to obtain resources – this IS an invasion of another superpower, to not include logistics into the equation is beyond ludicrous!
And again a PGC is NOT a support unit it is a military force – that is unless you remove all their weapons.
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What is maintenance for?
Even then there can still be issues ….. keeping an engine continually idling problems may still occur – they are usually difficult to isolate as they are usually system malfunction deep within the engine.
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…. Life isn't fair ….
True, the Clans have Warships and the IS Houses have massive stockpiles of nukes (as seen by the succession wars etc.) – so the point is?
They take out a city with a warship you take out that warship with a massive nuclear strike – this is a proportionate strike and reasonable!
The problem is the TPTB wrote a ludicrous story about the DC sitting back and taking one right up the ______
Time to face facts Takashi would have nuked the Clans off every world if Theodore did not restrain him at that point.
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The Ares convention was a piece of paper the houses ignored during wars.
Sorry but no, the rules of warfare are drummed into every soldier from day one! The consequences of breaking them are just too great ….
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You have to protect your assets from others. Something that seems to be missing from the statements provided in the threads.
Reaction time – if you are able to strike and destroy your enemy with overwhelming firepower and then return prior to the enemies other forces from launching a counter attack then an attack can be ordered.
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It is even more impossible to do so with having forces only on a central world of a large space organization.
Sorry but no it is possible ….
Travel through uninhabited systems;
Come out at a pirate jump point as close the planet in question;
Burn in as quickly as possible;
Launch a massive aerospace fighter attack as a first strike upon all major military targets;
Massive Land for ces
By the time the enemy reacts it is all over….
A point that was clearly demonstrated during the 3rd Succession War …
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You must guard something in order to try and prevent it's destruction or capture.
How many forces to how many worlds?
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Rules first, then writing it. It can NOT be the other way around.
It is all about cash flow – how to get it – then how to expand – why fix the rules when this will only affect a small number of people? There is no real growth to your cash flow!
Whereas, if you create a dynamic new story that will drive more people to the game through access to a massive number of new people – cash revenue will increase.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/07/21 02:48 AM
66.74.60.165
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Learn the definition of Safecon. It does not prevent fights. It is nothing more then saying the attacker can land units without the defender firing on them until they have landed.
You will not redefine the definition of the game terms and rules while arguing canon material. The argument is how the clans were able to use PGCs and even supplies routes that you don't agree with. Then saying they don't work for you. Stop arguing canon if you can not keep the definitions correct. Otherwise, you might as well say WOB invaded the clan worlds with their super jumpdrive ships and brought in all the supplies for them. This is a very large part of why you don't understand things, or so you have said you didn't.
Yes. There can be issues with anything. The reason to keep maintenance on things is to keep them in tip top shape for when it is needed. Not sure why it would be necessary to continuously have to keep a warship engine constantly on. If anything, the use of them would wear out the thrusters and ducting to send the thrust out. Having them shut down for as long as you can would be a better idea.
Still not getting that if you use one nuke, you will create a war that is nothing but nukes?
And the penalty of violating the Ares convention? Really? You are reading the same history as the rest of us? The entire history of warfare has been riddled with violations of the convention. Punishment only comes IF the perpetrators are not protected by a great house, or can be captured. Even the FC had ordered units to wipe out entire villages. That is why they tend to pose as pirates. So blame can not be pointed at them. And even if it does, what really happens? People get mad, but that is not going to really stop anything. Only the small fry, which pirates have been committing crimes against the conventions for ages. A few even die of old age without ever being in jail for it.
Wow. You still think you can take 2 months to head out and attack a world and return instantly when someone attacks you. This is NOT Terra, where you can fly a bomber around the world in less then a day. This is talking about going to a jump point, jumping into another system, probably multiple systems and getting back. This also does not include if you didn't get the job done on the world you are attacking. As you love having spies that know everything and instantaneously rely to their own forces, you would just be jumping out of the system when the enemy is coming in. This is not that realistic, but the enemy will be watching.
Huh? How did the 3rd war come from the fact you can not have all forces stationed on a central world of a large collection of worlds in space, and protect them all?
Barring the central world guarding others, the very tactic you explain is normally set off when the enemy hits a world with a raid, and you send everything you can to stop them, yet they are actually hitting another world with their large groups.
The FS did NOT launch everything into the CC. They had to protect worlds as well as attack. And they did. All of these forces were not stationed on New Avalon and physically went out from there.
The main reason why the FS won so much is that the DC didn't respond well, and the CC did not have the time to move around forces, which is why taking worlds was a bit difficult. The counter attack was basically destroyed before it did much, but it wasn't like the CC had many forces to even try.
Each location has it's own requirements, which can not be put down as every location needs a lance or company to guard it. Defiance would require a large group, while a backwater world that is nothing more then a personal holding for the crown might get just some militia. To even ask how many shows a lack of understanding defensive tactics.
The very game that you are complaining about pretty much went the route of a story and not having the rules set after the initial release. There are multitudes of games that have done the same thing. Most are unknown to barely remembered. You can NOT write the story without the rules, as the rules gives you the concrete basis to make the back story fit with current events. I have yet to see one game or even series of movies that doesn't have some major holes in it. Not that they are bad, just have issues with things not lining up.
Fixing issues first has to be done before you can do any sort of retcon or rewrite. Otherwise you just recreate the same issues with a different story.
Example. Changing the way infantry takes damage, would mean a single lance of mechs could NOT take a world with a company of infantry on it, without destroying the capital where the infantry would be stationed. Short ranges would allow them to destroy a lance. An Awesome in a city that could not wipe out 3 platoons of infantry at one go, when earlier they could shows the issue.
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Cray
02/07/21 11:47 AM
71.47.193.139
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And the penalty of violating the Ares convention? Really? You are reading the same history as the rest of us? The entire history of warfare has been riddled with violations of the convention.
The Ares Conventions were suspended in 2578 by the new Star League and never formally returned to use, which is why the Reunification War and Star League Civil War saw so many WMDs and orbital bombardments. The Houses made a symbolic gesture in the late 2780s to renounce the Conventions, which is why the First and Second Succession Wars killed hundreds of billions of people.
In short, the Ares Conventions were suspended about 450 years before the original 3025 start of the setting, and every House renounced them about 250 years before 3025. The Conventions were never restored.
The Third Succession War saw the evolution of an informal set of rules that made WMDs unpopular, but by and large held little resemblance to the Ares Conventions. The Ares Conventions, after all, *did* allow nuclear weapons (if used in space), but turned combat into a near-bloodless battle of maneuver and positioning. The Third Succession War and later conflicts violated the Ares Conventions in every battle by not allowing time outs (seriously) and featuring battles-to-the-death.
The two-year Fourth Succession War is noted as killing as many people as the 150 years of the Age of War fought under the Ares Conventions.
For details on how the Ares Conventions were renounced centuries before 3025, please see Sourcebook: House Marik, the Star League Sourcebook, and Strategic Operations.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
02/07/21 03:25 PM
1.158.229.22
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Learn the definition of Safecon. It does not prevent fights. It is nothing more then saying the attacker can land units without the defender firing on them until they have landed.
Exactly – the logistics fleet can land within the IS invasion corridor without another clan firing on them until they have landed!
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You will not redefine the definition of the game terms and rules while arguing canon material.
Whom are the people that comprise a PGC? … ans. …. Warriors
Whom are the people that comprise a support unit? … and. … Non-warriors
As far as I am concerned this was cheating and was the only way TPTB could have enacted their canon story! Creating rules that allowed the Clans to prosper at the expense of the IS …. Just like so many other rules
Not-being allowed to create …
Anti elemental rifle as ne 50 cal to the head should have killed them given that an old man and his daughter could use a sledge hammer and a spike to kill an elemental; as well as spikes falling from the roof could impale them!
PT craft – you are not allowed to put naval weapons on dropships that are permanently in space?
Where is the IS Navy?
IS Omni-mechs – where are they in numbers to equal that of the Clans
Wolf’s Dragons – they come clean and yet do not supply their navy t the cause – they did absolutely nothing to prepare the IS for the oncoming invasion and we are expected to believe that the great houses will just say that is OK?
The One year of peace – completely mismanaged
The 15 years of peace – completely mismanaged
The defection of Clans and yet they do not assist with IS technology?
The idea that you will only attack ONE CLAN!!!!!!!!
Reverse engineer clan tech
Huntress – all the tech you can want!
Turtle Bay – an actual samurai response should have occurred
The 20 year update of units reduced to half?
All the major characters were still alive at the start of the Clan invasion and the response by them was the most ludicrous and ridiculous response imaginable!
Sorry but NO the entire Cannon Clan invasion, as written, is beyond ludicrous …..
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WOB invaded the clan worlds with their super jumpdrive ships and brought in all the supplies for them.
And we are supposed to believe that hidden worlds with vast amounts of technology and people were available to ComStar during their entire history, including the Clan Invasion, and yet they refused to use them – they only used the ComGuard ???????????
Sorry but no …. Once more a ridiculous story ….. though the idea that the WOB would send a fleet to kill of the Clan’s home worlds would actually make more sense at this stage !!!!!
Also where is the rest of the IS reverse engineering WOB tech ? where is my transformable fighter ? sorry but by this stage the wheels had completely fallen off …..
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Having them shut down for as long as you can would be a better idea.
This will do wonders for life support – lighting – radar – the galley – waste processing etc ……. fumble around in the dark as the oxygen decreases and the cold of space envelopes the entire ship ……
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Still not getting that if you use one nuke, you will create a war that is nothing but nukes?
Then come up with a way of killing off a warship that does not involve them !!!!!
Post Turtle Bay what is the response? Then when threatened AGAIN in Lyran space? The rulers can only interpret the actions as per the information supplied – this is not a kids game it is WAR !!!!!
They are the biggest gun on the battlefield and all they do is sit there and everyone hopes they will not be used !!!!!
If they are brought into the game then there MUST be a means of killing them off – so either PF Craft or Nukes or allow the IS to have warships at the same time. Choose.
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This is not that realistic, but the enemy will be watching.
How did that work out on completion of Hanse’s wedding Toast? …. For ComStar, DC, FWL and CC ????????
Also it is all about viability and money …. Without it the game will shut down …
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the Ares Conventions
Thus as given … the clans use an orbital bombardment and samurai do NOTHING? After so many years of using them the idea that they wouldn’t in this case is once more beyond ludicrous !!!!!
However it is the principle of MAD that keeps things in check …. And yet we are supposed to believe that House forces will use them en mass up to a certain point and yet when the Clan invade they refrain from utilizing them ??????? either you have them and use them or they are removed from the game completely – choose.
And yet history, the International Criminal Court and treaties are finally starting to bring light, the law and restrictions to those who committed them – try explaining the atrocities committed by your own forces to future generations …. History WW2 – 11th Armored Div. Chenogne Belgium Jan 1 1945 – the Chenogne Massacre.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/07/21 05:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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Is logic even part of your posts anymore?
What does this statement: Exactly – the logistics fleet can land within the IS invasion corridor without another clan firing on them until they have landed! have to do with preventing another clan from raiding supplies?
How does this have anything to do with a clan attacking another clans supply depot for supplies?
Oh my! The developers made sure that the IS couldn't just walk over the invaders with ease? That is just horrible. Does that mean this story doesn't follow almost every story that is a series? The story line proceeds in pretty much the way it would with limited intelligence on the part of the IS, and this can not stand? Some of what they did is BS, as no defender would just ignore the attackers weapons as being too expensive, while creating even more expensive weapons that aren't tested.
Some of the very things you complain about is very logical as they are done. To hand over tech to someone that will absolutely use it against you is very stupid. The clans that defected would defend their areas, but not trust the rest with it.
The concept that there are some things that can not be automatically responded against seems to allude your thinking. There are also some situations that require you to just leave some loss of face alone. As stated, the entire first war with the DC/FS is one of them. According to your views of Japanese culture, the losses from that war would not allow them to stop until they are all dead. Nukes were used in the DC as counter strikes happened. This could not be tolerated by your definitions.
The hidden worlds represents stupidity at it's finest. First off, these worlds would have been stripped of resources during the SL time. If not, then they shortages of resources would not have happened. The reason for the SL was so the TH could get fresh resources in. So start there before complaining about the future. Also, if comstar knew of those worlds, then they are not hidden. Comstar should have hit them when WOB was starting. And yet nothing was diverted to holdingt those worlds when WOB started taking over.
Prime example today. The U.S has not given away the secrets to building some technology to allies it has across the world. Russia hasn't given the ability to make their tech to their allies. They are all to buy it from those that have it, and use contracts so home techs deal with fixing and maintaining them. So why should the future be different? Also the SLDF was not free in giving out their tech. There was a lot of things the houses could not build.
And with the Blake ideology, WOB would have definitely went to war with the clans. Blake Ideals were to rebuild the IS, not some military forces left over from the SLDF.
And transformable fighters are removed from the game because of lawsuits in real life. This is not something the developers can do much about.
What do you think happened in the IS? It took a few years, but they did make warships along with capital weapons. But that is the point. It took years. It was not available the moment or even before the clans showed up.
Yes. How did that work out in the 4th war? The forces were set up to go, but were not sitting on New Avalon for their assaults. All entities moved forces, but those of the DC/FWL/CC did not believe Hanse would do something at his own wedding. The fact that their intel department did not really catch as much of the movement of forces says it all. Had they done so, the FC would have been hurt far more then what they were. But it still would have been far worse for all, if they went with your idea of all combat forces being on the capital world and deployed from there. Multiple worlds would have been raided and destroyed before any type of forces could get near them from the capital worlds. And that is not even counting the fact that there is not enough transportation to move them. So having garrisons on worlds saves them from being taken, as you don't have the ability to move forces around to cover them.
just because the DC did not launch a stupidly organized suicide assault on the Jaguars, did not mean they did not move to punish them. The situation didn't allow much of a major offensive, so they had to wait and do what they could.
Edited by ghostrider (02/07/21 05:56 PM)
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Wick
02/07/21 07:21 PM
173.247.25.195
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The Khwarazm Empire and the Chainelane Isles was discovered and captured during Clan’s journey to the IS prior t the start of Operation Revival – they were not existing supply bases for the invasion – they only became such in the years after if at all …
Wait... I supply an actual canon quotation proving that they were, and you still disagree with it? I honestly don't know where to go with this. The only thing I can imagine is that you're getting your facts out of order. Go vote for Operation Revival happened first, Clans then jockeyed for placement, the Invading Clans moved to the Periphery in mid-3049, invading Clans occupy those worlds and established supply depots on some of them in late 3049, then they move into House space in early 3050. This order is established in multiple books (Warriors of Kerensky being one of them) and is not disputable. Circa 3059 or later the ComStar maps start to show these systems. I will grant that some of them may have been established anytime between 3050 and 3059, but Warriors of Kerensky states definitively that some exist in 3049.
The Clans knew where the edge of House space was because the Outbound Light carried ComStar maps (not that it had changed much since the fall of the Star League.) Thus when they discovered a suitable world that would be only a few jumps from the front-lines, they could use it as a supply depot. They didn't need depots in the deeper periphery, which is why realms like the Hanseatic League were left alone. They were too distant to serve any purpose to the invasion. They didn't really need supply depots to conquer the bandit kingdoms or nearer periphery worlds because the quality of resistance was poor. In 3049 they anticipated the invasion lasting 3 years (15 waves of ten-weeks each) so clearly they knew they'd need some supply bases in the near periphery before moving into more occupied areas of known space.
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So where are the Naval battles for entire fleets of Clan logistics!
Because there's no honor in it. Using your naval force to attack a supply base with no naval force violates the spirit of batchall. If they want to have mech fights and such, I'll buy that, but warships were too precious and rare to allow storing one at every supply base.
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Can I laugh now? Compared to an entire House they (Wolf's Dragoons) are not that serious
Five-plus elite-ranked reinforced mech regiments spread across just one to three worlds is. The fact they obliterated nine of the DCMS's best regiments in the 4th Succession War proves just how serious a threat they could be when provoked.
I'm actually laughing that you think they're wimps when they did such horrendous damages to the Combine's war machine. I never suggested they could defeat an entire House army - this is something you've thought of. All I meant was an employing house would suffer great losses trying to take the Hephaestus Station from the Dragoons. Besides losing the five-plus regiments of the Dragoons, the Combine took a net loss over the matter of over fourteen mech regiments. For a Combine that started the Fourth Succession War with about 80 mech regiments, that was nearly 18% of their entire mech force. Not really a laughing matter.
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Marik civil war?
Did either side make a move on Hephaestus Station? I'm aware of Anton Marik's kidnapping/arrest of Joshua Wolf and families of the Dragoons, but not trying to take the station. In any event, the move against the the Dragoons cost Anton his life and his rebellion was crushed. They probably would have destroyed nine regiments of Anton's mechs too if he had had that many.
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And what about those created by the clans were they also modular – as the rules say space stations can’t be?
The Bastion was a Star League-era modular Battlestation moved about by jumpship by the same means as Hephaestus Station.
Whether TPTB have given rules to dictate this or not can be questioned, but the existence of modular, jumpship-transportable stations in-universe can not.
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Why would you create a batchall for limited supplies that have already been allotted to individual units when you can just as easily send out your Navy and take the entire fleet of jump-ships, drop-ships, crew, all logistics (this also included replacement Mechs, fighters, elementals etc) and all replacement personnel (warriors and techs etc) and in so doing effectively kneecap your rival Clan at the same time – making them extremely vulnerable to attack by other Clans as well as the IS (as too many failures and they will never be allowed to be Il-Clan – and effectively removing them from the race!) as it will take another six months or more before the next supply fleet arrives within the IS
Problem 1: This convoy is going to come with mechs, fighters, and well rested warriors. You're going to expect to use up nearly the same amount of resources to capture such a convoy from another Clan (maybe with tired warriors) thereby crippling your own drive to Terra in the same process you seek to cripple the opponent. Now a third Clan has the edge on both of you. If you want to kneecap your rival, fine. But kneecapping yourself as well in the process? Not so smart. Maybe your plan works if there were but two invading Clans, but four makes such a plan very dangerous. The better plan is to let the convoy arrive, disperse its materials across the enemies worlds, and then Trial for what you need, keeping your risk to a minimum. And that's exactly what happens in the stories. Perhaps FASA and the authors had considering hijacking a convoy en-route, but ran into the same problem I just described and dismissed it as unworkable. (Sounds like the kind of nonsense they would have written the Ice Hellions to do though.)
Problem 2: You are assuming that each convoy arrives every six months, with only one ship in transit at a time. Its far more likely they had convoys arriving every week or two, with multiple ships going back and forth simultaneously. This allows distributing your needs across multiple convoy trips, rather than putting all your eggs into a single basket. Given that misjumps occur, the Clans would be wise to do this. Thus, hijacking another Clan's convoy only delays them a few weeks from replenishment of at least some of their needs. Now if you happened to hit the right convoy that had something unique (experimental mechs, prized genetic legacies, etc.), you might be on to something that really could set them back six months.
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Rules first, then writing it. It can NOT be the other way around.
ghostrider, we'd still be stuck in 3025 Succession War era if this were true. Even 30 years later things are retconned into this era (or earlier eras) which disrupts things.
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Requiem
02/08/21 12:54 AM
1.158.229.22
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How does this have anything to do with a clan attacking another clans supply depot for supplies?
Either a Naval war within the deep periphery as Clans (and the IS) engage in a ‘silent war’ for rival Clan logistical support fleets or the Clans adopt a safcon until they arrive within the IS – thus they only have to contend with IS forces attacking them.
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The story line proceeds in pretty much the way it would with limited intelligence on the part of the IS, and this can not stand?
Levity is unbecoming …
As demonstrated many times within this post the IS has the ability to generate a massive amount of intelligence – the Clans really have no idea when it comes to intelligence gathering / counter intelligence.
Thus yes, as far as I am concerned, the entire story as written is a complete BS.
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To hand over tech to someone that will absolutely use it against you is very stupid. The clans that defected would defend their areas, but not trust the rest with it.
This is the price they pay to be allowed into the Star League …. technology, education etc for worlds …. How difficult is this?
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the losses from that war would not allow them to stop until they are all dead.
Historical fact – Gen. Anami on Aug. 13 remarked that the atomic bombings were no more menacing than the fire-bombing that Japan had endured for months. If Hiroshima and Nagasaki were no worse than the fire bombings, and if Japan’s leaders did not consider them important enough to discuss in depth, how can Hiroshima and Nagasaki have coerced them to surrender?
The nuclear weapons DID NOT cause the Japanese to surrender – with the introduction of the Russians into the war is when the Japanese decided to surrender as they did not want to become subservient to the Russians as those in Europe were.
The idea that the nuclear weapons were the reason for the end of the war is a myth perpetuated by America in order to alleviate their guilt for using them in the first place.
Within the game when you consider that Takashi Kurita is still alive at this point in time the only logical recourse is a limited Nuclear Strike upon the Smoke Jaguars! There is no other recourse for the DC in order to maintain face and Honour – something that TPTB completely do not comprehend or they decided to completely ignore.
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The U.S has not given away the secrets to building some technology to allies it has across the world.
No it sells them ….. consider Taiwan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_arms_sales_to_Taiwan
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Russia hasn't given the ability to make their tech to their allies.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/us-allies-continue-buying-weapons-from-russia/1653985
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the SLDF was not free in giving out their tech.
Mother Doctrine – restricting the dissemination of advanced tech.
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And transformable fighters are removed from the game because of lawsuits in real life.
Problem is they are in the Jihad era books and has there been a lawsuit to date regarding their images as the idea themselves are not protected under law? So unless there is a cease and desist order yes they can do something about it.
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What do you think happened in the IS? It took a few years, but they did make warships along with capital weapons.
And in the interim period between when the Clans brought them into the IS and when the Houses began manufacturing them?
And as the only IS weapon system available to kill them off is the nuke ………
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just because the DC did not launch a stupidly organized suicide assault on the Jaguars, did not mean they did not move to punish them.
To understand this you need to understand the concept of Face as well as House Honour - consider terrorist attack and the proportionate response of the Military – they destroy a city with a WMD from a Naval vessel – DC wipes the ship from existence with a massive nuclear strike! It is really just that simple! It is NOT a major offensive it IS a proportionate response.
And before anyone says they would never do this consider how far the US went when they were attacked.
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The Khwarazm Empire and the Chainelane Isles
3048 Nov 21st – Clans vote to initiate Operation Revival
Thus 4 months to prepare for the IS invasion – realistic? Not very.
3049 March – Clans initiate exodus to the IS
Thus 6 months travel time that included the conquest of the 2 planetary groups - so where is the time to convert them into a logistics base? Especially when the chaineline isles are so close to the IS thus invaded and captured close to Aug 3049?
3049 Aug – Clans arrive within the Periphery initiating invasion
[qiuote]Thus when they discovered a suitable world that would be only a few jumps from the front-lines, they could use it as a supply depot.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Exodus_Road and https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:ChainelaneIslesMap.jpg
Map attached – closest Transfer Station J239H2 is behind the Chainelane Isles – would it not be more efficient to put it in front? – so how can this be considered close? Also where exactly is the Khwarazm empire as no one has placed it on a map to date?
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Because there's no honor in it. Using your naval force to attack a supply base with no naval force violates the spirit of batchall.
And yet the batchall clearly requests with what forces will you defend this base …. So unless the base is completely unguarded they can initiate a bachall and there is no loss of honour.
So either Naval battle; aerospace battle; battlemech battle or elemental battle …..
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Five-plus elite-ranked reinforced mech regiments spread across just one to three worlds
Half a dozen nuclear missiles – and a pile of slag.
They betrayed the IS – what level of response would the IS go to if they believed the Dragoons were a threat?
So unless they are completely contrite – provide their warships, all units to be immediately transferred to the front lines etc I doubt they would have lived very long.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hephaestus_Station
“It saw combat action at least once, when it was attacked by aerospace fighters at New Delos during the Marik Civil War …”
‘Hephaestus Station had probably been a highly modified Hughes-class yard station…. It was mobile in the sense that it could be disassembled into modules which had K-F Booms and could be moved via JumpShip like regular DropShips with Docking Collars, to be re-assembled at the destination site.’
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You're going to expect to use up nearly the same amount of resources to capture such a convoy from another Clan …
With what forces are you going to defend this fleet?
Problem is no one decided of determine what a logistics fleet was defended with – so even if it had just one aerospace fighter this is still enough to fight for the fleet – they could even fight unaugmented hand to hand if it came to that (Black Thorns / Blood Name Fight)
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You are assuming that each convoy arrives every six months, with only one ship in transit at a time.
Size of the fleet is immaterial – bet it one ship and dropships or ten it does not matter – the greatest reward is still an undistributed supply ship with its logistics intact compared to whatever a unit may possess!
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hijacking another Clan's convoy only delays them a few weeks from replenishment of at least some of their needs.
Supposition … there are no information as to the size / frequency of the fleet thus it could be one small ship at a time or fifty sips every six months – in the former only a small number of units can be resupplied at a time (though again it depends upon the frequency of attacks – if you can jump many of the ships week in week out same result) and in the latter everything in one hit will cause a major problem.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/08/21 02:31 AM
66.74.60.165
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The statement of the naval battles was not about the clans against each other, but for the IS to perform attacks on the clans supply lines. Someone still thinks the IS had the intel and ships to waste on hunting the periphery to hopefully engage supplies ships. That MIGHT happen once. After that, warships will accompany the rest.
I don't remember where, but it was suggested the Dragoons station was an Olympus style. And it was mess with during the Marik Civil war. I want to say the Dragoons source book had it in there.
The rules first statement is about getting a reboot of the game. They didn't stick with their rules, and keep writing in things they never had, or didn't want until it fit TPTB new story line. The Argo is a prime example of this. Yes, it was retconned into the game, but their was no other indication that you could make a dropship that another dropship could attached to and both use a jumpship to jump with. This would definitely have been used to transport large amounts of cargo at the least if it had been used before.
How about you have someone explain to you what Safecon really means. It is not something that prevents another entity from attacking your supply lines. It is only given to an attacker to allow them to land uncontested. Not allow a defender to move out from an attack. This still does not seem to be sinking in. Might be because you seem to think everything brought up is complete bs if it doesn't fit your view.
It is agreed that TPTB seemed to forget the black boxes. This is the ONLY leeway I will give for this. The fact that intel needs HPG transmissions when all jumpship travel is prevented, means the ONLY way to get up to the minute details is stopped. The fact that the FC intel figured out how to determine if a system was under attack is not the same thing as saying they had only a single Overlord C being used. And with this, they knew Comstar was feeding the clans intel so anything like a massed attack in one system would have left dozens of others open. The clans were not above leaving a small unit to fend off an attack while they rampaged thru other worlds. Some units would actually have bid on being the ones to hold the enemy in place.
It is very much stated the clans destroyed jumpships that were in system and were about to leave.
I did not see that admission into the SL was handing over all your tech. But then I suspect you would say an alliance means you hand over everything, and not bother to reciprocate. It doesn't happen in the world today, why would it happen in the future?
And as was said a while back, the NAIS had figured out clan tech. They didn't do much with it, as the costs were the issue. I don't agree with it, but that is the base line of it.
I suggest taking a day before responding to things as you are confusing more and more things. The first war is not WWI, but the 1st succession war. The fact that all sides used nukes to wipe out populations was fact. The DC had strikes against them inside their original borders. This fact would mean that the enemy would have to be completely destroyed, so there would never be an end to the succession war until that happen, by your own view. It was a huge stain on the honor of the DC. It meant the DCMS could NOT protect their own people.
So the selling of items is the same thing as giving the tech? Something does not compute here. Warrantee void if seal is broken... The very issue is why big tech is having problems with making things like computer chips over seas anymore. The countries that were making it are now making their own versions of it.
A way around that was to epoxy everything, so you would have to destroy the item in order to get a look inside. That has changed since the 70's.
Read your response. BUYING, not making the items. And they require you have THIER techs to work on and fire the system. Something you have missed in that.
And the easiest way for the Clans to have dealt with the IS barbarians would be nuke anything they did not need, and avoid tainting their society with the perverted views of the IS. Does that sound just as stupid?
Again, you show you have no idea of what honor is. The batchall is set so the defender states what they will defend with, so you can attack with something that will make the fight somewhat fair. To just bombard the station with a warship is dishonorable for the clans. Only a coward would do so, and they would be removed very quickly once they did it. And that is only against the clans. Might was well just forego the batchall at that point and just attack.
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ghostrider
02/08/21 02:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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Again. Nukes are the only way to go. No tactical thinking whatsoever.
Now the stupid part. The Dragoons betrayed the IS? First off mercs have done so for the entire existence of being a mercenary, as the next person that pays for you will gain some intel. And a few are HIRED to be spies to gain intel. The dragoons were clan mercs sent in to gain that intel. It isn't like the Dragoons were BORN in the IS. OR was from a specific house and gave out their home secrets to the enemy. They did the job they were sent in to do. Their second objective given to them after their first mission was still going on, was to prepare the IS. If they had done ANYTHING prior to the invasion to even suggest they were part of the SLDF fleet that left, they would have been ripped apart and killed. So yeah. Let's say we are from the SLDF descendants and get killed before we can do anything.
If anything, the Dragoons betrayed the clans by following the orders of Kerlin Ward. Oh wait. That is what they were supposed to do, as the other clans had no authority to tell them otherwise.
And the thought of Safecon has come up to have me ask if you can Safecon the objective of the attack, so you can move the object away from the attackers, so they can't win it in battle. This is the very version you seem to be suggesting.
Wow. So the DC using poison and executions in their campaigns against others were not a violation of the rules of warfare? Oh wait. That can be said to be anything goes to win. And that sort of thinking almost means nukes are available, even though it means your prize is worthless until the radiation lessens enough.
And now the kicker. The Jaguars did not use that tactic afterwards and left the world as they could not control the population afterwards. Now it can be argued that if they continued to use bombardment as their main offensive, that the DC would have had to done the foolishly stupid charge unto death, and lost the entire combine quickly.
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Requiem
02/08/21 04:41 AM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
Naval battles within the deep periphery.
It should be about Clans fighting against each other – why else conduct raids to obtain supplies or to undertake Harvest Trials – it is just an extension of these trials – rebuilding at the expense of your competitor Clan.
As this is SOP for a Clan it can occur many times – if another Clan is weak in not defending that is their problem.
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How about you have someone explain to you what Safecon really means. It is not something that prevents another entity from attacking your supply lines.
Comprehension …. from a legal point of view – it IS acceptable …..
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The fact that intel needs HPG transmissions when all jumpship travel is prevented.
Actually this is not totally correct – prior to the establishment of the HPG grid Aviso Class message dispatch ships (pony express) were utilized to receive a burst transmission form a planet then jump out with the information to a safe system which would then be burst transmitted back to a safe planet for further action by a local military unit. Message time increases with the number of Jumps required by the ship(s).
Thus as long as the relief force is within one jump they should be able to receive the transmission message within a very short period of time and be able to respond accordingly.
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The clans were not above leaving a small unit to fend off an attack while they rampaged thru other worlds.
Garrison Force – which quickly adds up so that when you subtract all garrisons from the main force this number quickly deteriorates to a very small number ie. by the time you reach 75% of the distance to Terra most Clans would have run out of all front line forces needed to continue the invasion!
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The DC had strikes against them inside their original borders …. This fact would mean that the enemy would have to be completely destroyed, so there would never be an end to the succession war until that happen
Isn’t this the exact situation the DC find themselves in with the Clans?
They had no idea – unless you have a very good blood hound and Ouija board – that the Clans would not keep on using WMD Orbital strikes …. Thus as per 1st Succession War Rules of War, FULL NUCLEAR STRIKE
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BUYING, not making the items
Keep reading …. Buying Russian Weapon systems so that they can be reverse engineered to improve existing weapon systems / work out their weaknesses. How long will it take to just complete a materials analysis? and how many countries are experts at this – Japan, China ….. etc.
Also how many organisations within the game are supposed to be experts at reverse engineering – NAIS – Banzai – Uncle Chandy’s people – WOB etc etc.
Cost aside canon stated the IS were able to reverse engineer Clan Tech …. So the point is?
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And the easiest way for the Clans to have dealt with the IS barbarians would be nuke anything they did not need,
Who has more nukes on hand as well as the facilities to mass produce them as well as the resolve to kill off their own people to win in the end?
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To just bombard the station with a warship is dishonorable for the clans. Only a coward would do so
How about we look at Phelan’s trial for a Blood Name – how “Honourable” was that?
How about the entire Political Century?
How about all the purges the clans undertook?
The Clans are not beyond committing “dishonourable” acts in order win.
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The Dragoons betrayed the IS?
Question what happens when you are identified as a being a spy for a foreign power during a time of war with that foreign power? Usually the answer is shot at dawn that is unless they flip and become a double agent.
So Dragoons what is it going to be shot at dawn or work for the IS - and that means all of your resources and all of your units on the front line!
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And now the kicker. The Jaguars did not use that tactic afterwards
As stated many times how does a House Lord know that a Clan will not use a WMD orbital strike again? Ans a very good blood hound and Ouija board
As a House Lord you cannot take the risk that they will not do it again – as they threatened to do so in the FC zone – one use is one too many – nuclear strike upon said warship is the only thing that can be done – it is a message to the Clan Khans you do this again and it will be nuclear war
Suggest you watch the film on John F. Kennedy’s embargo on Cuba when they were discussing with the Naval Admiral as to the new language they were using – this is exactly the same situation with Kurita and the Jaguar Khan – their actions are the language by which they are communicating with each other. Thus in order for Kurita not to appear weak in the others eyes the ship must be obliterated with a full nuclear strike!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/08/21 01:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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Safecon from a legal point is the defender can NOT expect safecon to remove the prize of the fight. This is the very heart of this discussion. It is very unlikely removing the prize of the fight at all, would turn out well for the defender. The challenge for a prize is at the heart of avoiding waste. To remove the prize would cause future combat to be just attack with everything and take it, much like the way the IS fights.
Guess the sentence: It is very much stated the clans destroyed jumpships that were in system and were about to leave. didn't register before the response. The houses would lose any jumpships spotted before they could get out. And to leave ships in all the threatened systems would have cut into their ability to move forces around. Much like trying to raid clan supply lines.
The lack of garrison numbers is a weakness written into the story. Given the fact most of the clans thought the IS would surrender shortly after their superior forces entered, they did not expect many battles, which means they would not need the garrisons. I agree there is a very major issue with the numbers on what they could actually have in the IS. They knew it in the story as they answered why only the corridor was the focus instead of hitting the entire IS.
The DC did not know if the clans had vast reserves either. The initial strikes from the clans was though to be a unit that found a large cache of league tech, until they got a hold of some of it. It was then that they realized it was beyond the SL. They did know that a single warship was beyond a small space battle to defeat. This is again where the lack of forces shows. And it also shows the need to defend other worlds, as they believed they could stop the clans, and anyone that thought of being a raider or pirate needed to remain fearful that if they even tried, they would die.
Funny. The statement of selling, not giving the tech was answered later in that paragraph. Remember this? And they require you have THIER techs to work on and fire the system. Violating the agreement would cause major issues with the sellers. And Russia is not above Spec ops to get their people and destroy anything that has or works on such an endeavor. They would also do so in the future when they found out more about where someone is doing so.
Now this is another point of reading the books to know all the resources the clans had. If not for them saying the clans were not nuke users, the concept of who had more would leave a question on if the clans did or not. And with this, once the clans blew every ship and station out of the sky, they could take the long run and nuke or bombard worlds with out much risk of being fired back at. This is why I believe TPTB would NOT allow ground batteries. It helps remove the threat of orbital bombardment. Spotty at best, but still better then nothing.
As much as you harp on the DC not knowing the clans wouldn't use bombardment as a main attack, they did not know if the clans would use nukes either.
Phelan is a freeborn IS warrior. In the minds of the brainwashed clans, only a trueborn can fight for a blood name. Which changed with Phelan and continued with Diana. Honor for them is to make sure the process isn't tainted by something like this. It was unfair that it was allowed to happen, but Phelan showed the clans that freeborns can infact be better the the trueborns by winning despite the bs.
Now you are talking about something that has changed in the IS. Spies hired by another for infiltration tend to be captured and traded back to the sender for your spies that are captured. Mercs are slightly outside the norm. As mercs, they are given a little leeway about this. The same merc that stole your intel, could very well be the same merc you are paying for intel on the entity that will steal some from that entity. Some get wiped as soon as they are found.
For the Dragoons, they did just that in the entire IS. THEY were giving intel on the enemy so attacks could be done, such as their first attack on the CC. Also, being mercs, why would the houses give them such access to intel that they did? Wolfnet got more intel then the Dragoons did about much. Only combat skills was the main thing the Dragoons themselves got, and that changes as new people move into positions of power.
Again. You use nukes, means they can use nukes in response. The bombardment is something that is hard to counter, but going straight to nukes would only cause an increase in destruction. Now had the DC known where the clan home worlds were, then nukes might be an option to remove their power base. Hitting a ship in space, especially when you don't know how many they have, does little to nothing to deter the enemy. Hitting the locations that make them does.
Also, defining new language would mean that the DC will not fight in any sort of honor would remove the few civil protocols from the Jaguars response in the DC. It would also negate the invasion agreement as the other clans would definitely rise up and demand to engage such a barbarian tactic like using nukes. Something that seems to have been overlooked.
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Requiem
02/08/21 04:05 PM
1.158.229.22
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The prize – Logistical Supplies – are not removed if Safcon is agreed to – whist in transport from Clan Space to the edge of each Clan’s Invasion Corridor each Khan agrees not to fight for another Clan’s Logistical supplies – thereafter it is fair game. Otherwise each Clan would have to divert resources to defend their Logistical Fleets whist in conveyance.
Wouldn’t this explain why there were no combat within the Deep Periphery between Clans for another Clans Logistical Fleets or Individual ships?
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The houses would lose any jumpships spotted before they could get out.
The Clan’s knowingly violated the rules of war – as the Dragoons would have included this information in their first information pouch - so no sympathy as each House is well within their rights to destroy each clans Jump-ships in response – and given their very small number, if nukes are used they will come off far worse.
Also jump-ships are only vulnerable if they are within range of their guns – otherwise due to the vastness of space they have a good chance of getting out.
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The lack of garrison numbers is a weakness written into the story.
And given that it was never exploited by any of the House’s military demonstrates a complete lack of understand as to how war is undertaken. – ie. once more hobbling the IS in favour of Clan forces.
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The DC did not know if the clans had vast reserves either
Can I laugh now? Optical intelligence ie a camera with a very good lens similar to a telescope that can shift into infra red etc and you can count the number of ships as well as they type of ships easily then there are intelligence agents on the ground who can steal the information from the Clans themselves – the Clans have no idea as when it comes to base / personal security after all – they would not realize they are no longer on their Clan home worlds after all and as such are incredibly vulnerable to attack via commando / intelligence agents / or if within the DC ninja.
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They did know that a single warship was beyond a small space battle to defeat.
All you need to do is look at historical documents for past naval battles to realise how vulnerable they are to aerospace assault with nukes and in five minutes you would be issuing strikes upon them – warships may appear to be invulnerable and yet one 5Kt nuke strike and they are dead (though the game stats wouldn’t agree due to making them able to survive for more than 5 seconds – in real life the thermal energy realised alone would just turn the majority of the ship to gas) ….
So until the game introduces energy shields for ships that can protect against a nuclear strike they are quite useless!
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Violating the agreement would cause major issues with the sellers.
No ….. first you can either steel it or you purchase through a broker plus everything comes with a users manual so you really do not need their techs at all.
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And Russia is not above Spec ops to get their people and destroy anything that has or works on such an endeavour.
Problem is they would be taken to a black site deep within your own country, so can it even be found? – thus making any spec ops attack impossible – that is unless you want to start a war.
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the concept of who had more would leave a question on if the clans did or not
Simple to answer – history – who used the most in the past would have the largest stockpile for fear that they would be used in the future!
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This is why I believe TPTB would NOT allow ground batteries.
And yet during the WOB Jihad they were allowed …. Plus in a military setting the rules are thrown out the window .. thus in all realty PT craft would have been created, anti elemental rifles would have been created, a complete reverse engineering of Clan tech (weapons / mechs / fighters / elemental suits for IS etc) would have occurred at a far more rapid rate that that within Canon setting etc etc
TPTB’s rules are worthless in this war setting …. Create your own weapons that would accurately reflect real world development and keep moving forward ….
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As much as you harp on the DC not knowing the clans wouldn't use bombardment as a main attack.
When fighting an unknown entity – every option is on the table – including Nukes – Post Turtle Bay there is no choice but to start using them.
TPTB not using them clearly shows that they have absolutely no understanding as to the concept of Face / a proportionate retaliatory strike(in my opinion) ….. especially since Takashi Kurita and Hanse Davion are both still alive at this point in time! Both would have ripped the Clan throat out in 5 seconds flat with the use of Nukes!
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Phelan is a freeborn IS warrior.
Irrelevant given that his DNA proves that he is the same as that of Clan warriors and his skills are just that good and at the same time his sponsor has accepted him as being the same as a Clan warrior!
Once revealed the Dragoons are spies they would be treated as such until they can provide a good enough reason to save their necks from the rope / firing squad. They have no protection whatsoever as being Mercs ….as a House Lord you cannot just let them off the hook no matter what – they must prove their allegiance to the IS or be branded as 5th Column – Mosley WW2 is a good example as well as all the German spies that became double agents for England.
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Again. You use nukes, means they can use nukes in response.
Actually this is an unknown …. Clan forces started this with an orbital strike – IS retaliates with a proportionate nuclear retaliatory strike – it is completely unknown if the Clans would want to escalate the war to Total Nuclear or they will come to the table to discuss the rules of war via Comstar.
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Hitting a ship in space, especially when you don't know how many they have, does little to nothing to deter the enemy.
Political necessity that that ship MUST DIE you must be willing to demonstrate to the enemy that if they use WMDs you are more than willing to ratchet up the intensity of the war by utilizing a WMD yourself otherwise you will appear weak in the eyes of your enemy – and can any Kurita Coordinator allow themselves to appear weak – ans: NO it would go against the code of the Samurai as well as the dictums of the House Honour – duty would demand no less than retaliatory WMD strike.
At this stage it is quite obvious that TPTB have no understanding as to the concept of Japanese Face / proportionate retaliatory strikes on the battlefield.
And again the message of using a nuke to the Clans – one that they must understand from the get go – if you act this way to my people expect a war of total carnage!
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It would also negate the invasion agreement as the other clans would definitely rise up and demand to engage such a barbarian tactic like using nukes.
Really? Sorry but this statement is completely in error … the Jaguars brought this on themselves by initiating a WMD orbital strike, the DC are well within their rights to kill off the ship that initiated the attack in the first place – same situation as the IS just killing off the Jaguars – the home Clans would blame the Jaguars for being so reckless not the DC for striking back at them.
So again nothing overlooked!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/08/21 06:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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The way you describe how Safecon works is very much like them removing the supplies from a fight. The supply carriers are not the attacker, so they can not invoke safecon.
The assumption that clans do not fight for supplies on the route is just that. Assumptions. The highlander book that had them pose as Jaguars and hit the Nova Cats shows they did indeed have defenders along the route to deal with such a threat.
The clans knowingly violated the rules of law? Please explain how they violated the rules of law when they had attacked jumpships and such in their homeworlds. Just because the IS declared them non combatants does not mean the clans had to follow this. This very question makes it sound like the DC can tell and enforce demanding all the other houses to switch to bushido. The clans did try to tell the IS they had to fight in the clans ways. That didn't happen.
Exploiting the fact that the PGCs numbers were low was not done due to the fact that no matter how much you wish it can be done, you can not just swim to another star system. You need jumpships, and with that, the risk of losing them far outweighed hitting what could very well be a concentration of units on a world. But again. Having the book tell you exactly what is there and when overrides logic that the houses didn't have this to go by.
Can I laugh now? I have yet to hear of any sort of telescope that can count the number of ships in a system even 30 light years away. The closest star system to us is about 3 light years, and we can't see all the worlds they have. They have to go with light levels dropping to even suggest there is something there. So yeah. The IS can tell exactly how many ships the clans have on the clans home worlds. OH yeah. The IS had mind reading spies that could rip all that information out of the clanners minds.
Well what to you know. The game says nukes are not that powerful, so they don't need energy shields. But again, saying the game is wrong because it doesn't fit your vision is all this is coming down to.
Maybe you need to research the actual agreements to using things like the S-300 and S-400 rocket systems that were used in several engagements in the past few years. The ones in eastern Europe for instance. Even the U.S sells planes that are stripped of high tech. If you want high tech, you have to agree to pay for a U.S tech to be there to work on it.
I went into real life with the last statement, so will try to avoid it again. Accidents happen. Trying to trace it to a specific person or nation is not easy, if it can be done. And just how are you going to take something like a tank to a black ops site to tear it apart when the person you bought it from will not let it get out of their sight. To do so, you risk starting a war, and as those that buy such equipment are in a bad spot to begin with, they are not going to try.
The SLDF used a lot of nukes hitting Amaris. Without knowing the clans philosophy, there is no way you would know if they had huge stockpiles of nukes just waiting to go. As the clans were invading to remove the house leaders, why wouldn't they just nuke capitals and large population bases, while keeping around production worlds? Because the books says they wouldn't. And there lies the answer. Arguing the game should have done this because the books say they have so much in stock.
The IS DID make dropships with capital weapons. They were missile launchers, which mean limited shots.
With WOB, they could not have the SDS system working without ground participating units, ie ground batteries. And part of the SDS system was remote bombs that were fighters and dropships. Which worked great which is in direct conflict to their own rules about remote controlled units.
You might think every option is on the table, but it isn't. The IS was used to waiting until they found the opening to retaliate. They did so with the clans. Launching nukes would have cause the IS to collapse even faster. Once one went off, everyone would start flinging them around to gain an advantage.
ALL current population of the clans are DNA relatives of the blood named. As failed trueborns are put into their population, they have children by those couplings. So that doesn't work. There are plenty of trueborns that had children on their own, and were not considered to be allowed into consideration for becoming a blood named.
The IS wasn't one nation. Not sure why this doesn't get thru. Maybe this might simplify this. Every recon mission is a spying mission. Some are far more deeper then others. So house units are spies as well for some missions. And with this, other houses will prevent you from doing anything, as they want their say. Yet that means another war would break out, as the houses would not let another house gain that information or materials. Status quo mean anything?
So now you say that the IS did not know if the clans would use nukes, so it is ok to use some to see if they would retaliate? The concept of not even trying to find out never enters the mind. And the first use of a nuclear strike would have them come in with more space forces and destroy you ability to do anything. Most worlds did not know they were being invaded until the batchall came in. What is your chance of launching nukes if the enemy just opened fire as soon as they were in range, with the ability to find your launch sites?
Back to the face issue again. The DC would never have stopped the 1st succession war according to your view.
Now the fact that the game is based on, but not strictly following the Bushido code still alludes you. The concept of based on a true story does NOT mean it is all pure fact.
The enemy using nukes would cause the clans to demand to get involved. The fact that the Saber Cat as well as the ilkhan was not challenged for their actions is odd. But then that is how things change depending on who looks at it. For some, the response was correct as the locals did not understand that trueborns are NOT to be ignored.
I don't like the fact that the bombardment went on, but I am not going to say it was the end all.
But seeing the cry for nukes in every situation under the sun, does explain why you believe you can defend everything from one location.
Oh yeah. The ams systems as well as fighters would make short work of your nukes heading towards the ships, if the ECM doesn't stop them.
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Wick
02/08/21 10:06 PM
173.247.25.195
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3048 Nov 21st – Clans vote to initiate Operation Revival
Thus 4 months to prepare for the IS invasion – realistic? Not very.
Many Clans were itching to invade by the time the Dragoon Compromise was settled in 3000. (See Ice Hellion history for a prominent example.) Wolf's Dragoons bought time, but everyone knew it only needed a spark to happen. Outbound Light was that spark. Just because you don't know your Clan history doesn't make it unrealistic. They had 50+ years to prepare after all. (And over 200 if Alexandr's words are taken as literally as the Crusaders do.)
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3049 March – Clans initiate exodus to the IS
Thus 6 months travel time that included the conquest of the 2 planetary groups - so where is the time to convert them into a logistics base? Especially when the chaineline isles are so close to the IS thus invaded and captured close to Aug 3049?
3049 Aug – Clans arrive within the Periphery initiating invasion
You forgot one date: Jan 3050 - Clans invade Inner Sphere proper.
So where is the time to convert them to logistics bases? Between August and December 3049 obviously. I really don't know how to spell this out any clearer. They're moving clusters worth of troops and materials forward. Are they just going to have planets available and instead just store all these things on dropships indefinitely? How are you going to invade when your jumpships and dropships are already full with excess mechs, ammo, lower-caste members, etc? Wouldn't it be logical to drop these off at a safe base behind the front-lines so you can free up the ships for military duty? If not, you need more ships just for storage and that's not a very Clan-like approach to the invasion. Stop complaining that the story as written is illogical and then argue yourself into a corner that makes less sense.
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Map attached – closest Transfer Station J239H2 is behind the Chainelane Isles – would it not be more efficient to put it in front? – so how can this be considered close? Also where exactly is the Khwarazm empire as no one has placed it on a map to date?
Close is a relative term here. Its still several jumps from Lyran space, but a good deal less than the distance between then Pentagon Worlds and Kerensky Cluster.
Presumably they took the most appropriate worlds. That part of space is known for having very few habitable worlds as they were never greatly colonized even during the Star League days. The Clans would probably desire a planet with a short transit time to jump points, with a large stable star to recharge quickly and safely, on a convenient jump route to other safe, fast-charging stars, and possibly with other desirable features such as freshwater basins, flat plains for landing fields, plus weather and native life that isn't problematic. J239H2 may have been the most desirable the Falcons could find in the few months they had to scout the area.
The Clans knew a lot more about the Inner Sphere worlds, either from Star League records or Outbound Light datastores, and I suspect they always planned to set up more efficient supply bases after the first wave or two. There's a good chance there were more staging areas that were abandoned by 3051, some of which that may have been closer and were never mapped.
Khwarazm Empire has never been put on a map. Since it was conquered by the Falcons its probably near the Chainlaine Isles, though more coreward.
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Half a dozen nuclear missiles – and a pile of slag.
But the Combine couldn't do that in 3028 and get away with it. Nuking a mercenary group because you wanted their station would undoubtedly bring harsh penalties from the Mercenary Review Board. The Combine would soon find it very hard to hire any other mercenary group. Its one thing to have disdain for mercenaries. Its quite another to blatantly destroy them. Could maybe get away with destroying a company-sized unit. Five and half elite regiments worth is going to be noticed.
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They betrayed the IS – what level of response would the IS go to if they believed the Dragoons were a threat?
The Combine did not know this in 3028. They can't react to what they don't yet know.
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With what forces are you going to defend this fleet?
If a convoy fleet was loaded with mechs, fighters, and obviously equipped with several dropships as a matter of necessity, the defender should rightly declare all of it to thwart any attempt by an enemy to take it by force. Losing such a convoy would be a disaster to their invasion plans. If the attacker can't muster the force to take it, then they shouldn't bother making the challenge. The Clans don't just bid for anything they want, they need to show up with the intent and confidence to take it. The attacking force can always be bid down, but you can't easily bid up with forces you don't have on hand. In essence, if the attacker shows up, declares his intent but can't make the Cutdown, then they've made a serious miscalculation and must either fight to the death in a hopeless battle or beg for surkai. Namely, having eyes bigger than your stomach is a recipe for dishonor amongst the Clans. So if the convoy carries about a cluster's worth of forces, you best show up with about a cluster's worth of your own. At least a few Trinaries if you feel your Warriors and equipment is better than theirs.
On the other hand, if they came upon the convoy and asked for something smaller that the defender could probably do with out, say "half the allotment of ER Medium Lasers aboard", then the defender can't rightly bid his entire force over a such a small prize and would have to offer a defensive force complimentary with the value, one which the attacking force could potentially defeat. To overbid would mean the defender has either placed an unusual amount of value on the prize (which in the case of something like exclusive genetic legacies could be completely understood) or has bid dishonorably. This is why the attacker must state the intent of his goal first. Even if the defender has more forces, he might not be able to use them without a loss of honor.
Bidding is a bit of gamesmanship between the parties, to try to leverage one's own honor and your opponents honor against the value of the target.
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Wouldn’t this explain why there were no combat within the Deep Periphery between Clans for another Clans Logistical Fleets or Individual ships?
I think the better answer is that no Clan wanted to divert forces from the Invasion front-line. Better to fight over things there, where it might just cost you just one jump, a single dropship, and a trinary or less of equipment to get something you want. But to move a convoy's worth of attackers into the Periphery to take another Clan's convoy just isn't focusing on the primary goal. You don't fight a war of conquering by moving your soldiers away from the front-line.
Quite likely a few opportunistic fights occurred as two ships ended up in the same system together but clearly there weren't any big battles and the outcomes seem to be have been too inconsequential to mention in source books or fiction.
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They knew it in the story as they answered why only the corridor was the focus instead of hitting the entire IS.
I suspect that once a Clan had reached Terra and been named ilClan, that all the other Clans could come to the Inner Sphere and would become occupying forces for the remainder.
Its no secret that the SLDF was 20 armies strong, and the Clans were originally numbered 20 as well. Perhaps the original goal was that upon return to the Inner Sphere each Clan would fill the role of one of the SLDF Armies. One for the Hegemony (the ilClan), three in each of the five member houses, and one each for the four territorial states (though with the RWR destroyed, one Clan would have required a new position.)
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Guess the sentence: It is very much stated the clans destroyed jumpships that were in system and were about to leave. didn't register before the response. The houses would lose any jumpships spotted before they could get out.
I don't think the Clans destroyed as many as you think they did. I'm sure they destroyed a few that tried to escape, but jumpships can't outrun warships and dropships nor can they fight their way out. The Clans probably just approached most Sphereoid jumpships with their warships or dropships with guns ready and made threatening comments which cowed the majority into submission. Most jumpships were simply boarded and taken over by the Clans for their own use. The Houses would use the same tactic during all of their wars, though they'd often let the merchant vessels go (perhaps after purloining them of any military hardware) and only keep the enemy's military craft. I think I read somewhere that merchant-owned jumpships captured during the invasion were absorbed into the merchant caste of that Clan. They'd perform all the same duties they used to perform, except they didn't have the freedom to go anywhere they wanted anymore. (Excepting any that were freed from Smoke Jaguar dominance during Operation Bulldog.)
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ALL current population of the clans are DNA relatives of the blood named.
This is not true. Freeborns are allowed to have children and are not sterilized except as punishment for crimes. Jaime Wolf, a freeborn, had children of his own, thus proving this fact. The Clans even encourage the lower castes to have children so as to build their industrial base as freeborns vastly outnumber trueborns. (Though children are often taken to a community group home rather than raised by parents.)
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The DC did not know if the clans had vast reserves either
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Can I laugh now? Optical intelligence ie a camera with a very good lens similar to a telescope
Really? Really!? A camera with telescopic lens to detect enemy strength from hundreds of light years away? Laugh all you want buddy. This is a hilariously silly answer.
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Requiem
02/09/21 01:11 AM
1.158.229.22
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The highlander book that had them pose as Jaguars and hit the Nova Cats shows they did indeed have defenders along the route to deal with such a threat.
And if we keep reading we see mystic dreams about the invasion …. Which also proves the point that YES IS forces can attack clan forces in the deep periphery!
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The clans knowingly violated the rules of law?
The clans would have been provided by the Dragoons with information as to IS culture and laws
One such law involves the prohibition on attacking Jumpships
And yet they went ahead and broke the IS law
When you are within a foreign country you must obey their laws – trying to transcribe your own laws over to another country will just get you locked up – cultural sensitivity!
They were in the IS – they broke the law!
Attempting to force a alien culture onto the IS will just create riots!
Living on the border you are prepared for the fact that your world would switch now and again – as evidenced by the paper currency of one world where one side was DC and the other LC - no one could be prepared to accept the idiocy of Clandom.
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the houses didn't have this to go by.
This is why you have a spy network!
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I have yet to hear of any sort of telescope that can count the number of ships in a system even 30 light years away.
Taking things out of context again? from the nadir to the zenith jump point – very easily.
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Even the U.S sells planes that are stripped of high tech.
Consider the F-35
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The IS DID make dropships with capital weapons. They were missile launchers,
Naval Lasers?
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Launching nukes would have cause the IS to collapse even faster
Disagree – consider the limited number of forces the clans arrived with as well as the limited number of ships
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There are plenty of trueborns that had children on their own, and were not considered to be allowed into consideration for becoming a blood named.
Yes they are civilians – not warriors
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Status quo mean anything?
Cold war mean anything? How about the war between Comstar and the FC?
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So now you say that the IS did not know if the clans would use nukes
Comprehension reading? ….. what would the clans do once the DC kills of their warship is an unknown – Warden Vs Crusader Politics is the only best guess anyone can make.
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The DC would never have stopped the 1st succession war according to your view.
Opinion only.
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Bushido code still alludes you.
Which book are you using? Kiyoshi Hiraizumi’s Bushido no Fukkatsu or Yutaka Hirose’s Gunjin Dotoku Ron or Hagakure’s maxims and anecdotes or Yoshida Shoin or Yamaga Soko?
Suggest reading Hakkenden first.
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The enemy using nukes would cause the clans to demand to get involved.
As stated previously disagree - wardens would demand a sit down with the IS or using ComStar as an intermediary.
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The ams systems as well as fighters would make short work of your nukes heading towards the ships, if the ECM doesn't stop them.
Disagree again – proximity is all that is required – plus most warships are not equipped with many fighters.
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They had 50+ years to prepare
Can we say the same thing for the UDSA in joining WW1 and WW2 – late to the party in both and how prepared were they in both?
Time does not equate to preparedness – Clan society is about efficiency of resources it is not about stockpiling vast amounts of logistics for a possible war in the near future!
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time to convert them to logistics bases
Ammo dump maybe, anything serious not a hope.
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Close is a relative term here.
So what is the minimum time to resupply given the logistic’s base location is increasing as the front lines are being constantly moved forward?
Sorry but unless you are going to move the supply base in line with the front line the reaction time is increasing manking it more and more inefficient as the war goes on!
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But the Combine couldn't do that in 3028 and get away with it.
When did the forums name change? If we are discussing Clans doesn’t this automatically bring it forward to 3050 –unless specifically quoting from the past? …. So this nuking is in regards to when Wolf called the leaders of the IS to Outreach. And when he came clean about their origins.
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If a convoy fleet was loaded with mechs, fighters, and obviously equipped with several dropships as a matter of necessity, the defender should rightly declare all of it to thwart any attempt by an enemy to take it ….
How many warriors are on board and how many would bluff in the hope of winning?
Then how many would call your bluff ?
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But to move a convoy's worth of attackers into the Periphery to take another Clan's convoy just isn't focusing on the primary goal.
One to three warships ???? and isn’t the goal to win at all costs? Thus yes hobbling your enemy is an acceptable means of winning.
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jumpships can't outrun warships and dropships
How long to hot jump?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/09/21 03:43 AM
66.74.60.165
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The highlanders were doing the periphery assault as part of Bulldog. This is AFTER Trent gave them the coordinates to go to. This was not a blind jump into the unknown.
There is a statement in one of the books that the combat fleet got to the IS and the warriors were not patient for the labor caste to build the stations needed for supplies, so they had their free for all in the periphery to sate them. And for the idea that the clans could only build a single station at a time shows a complete lack of what they can do.
The SLDF armies were much larger then the clans armies. Granted, with their egos, they may well have thought they could control the IS with the smaller numbers they had.
With this, the Dragoons were 5 regiment strong mech force. What does that tell you about the machine reserves the clans have?
Hey Gangis Khan. You are about to raid a village where swords are not allowed. Do you think that would stop Gangis from attacking the town with swords? Do you really think the clans cared about what the freeborn IS barbarians were or weren't doing? The clans had jumpships and used them in a fighting stance. They were not about to give that up because the opponent doesn't use them. And even with this, several invasions in the IS by IS forces destroyed jumpships. So your defense is poor at best. For the clans, you fight their way or die.
Another thing you seem to miss is the laws change according to who runs the world. The conquerors say you eat fish, then you eat fish. You resist the best you can, but they make the laws.
What good does a spy network do when the can't get the intel to begin with, and IF they get lucky enough to get some, can't communicate it back to HQ? Oh yeah. The telepaths at HQ can read their minds light years away from them. Maybe the Quigi board was a black box and told them what was up.
Taking things out of context again? from the nadir to the zenith jump point – very easily.
Gotta love the this one. From the jump points you can see 30 plus light years away, telling you what is there right this second. But that doesn't tell you have many forces are 60 or 400 light years away. So what? You have subspace telescopes like Star Trek that can see into the middle of another star empire? I don't remember seeing that option, ever.
The version of the F-35 the U.S sells is not the topped out wizardry that U.S pilots use. And those very planes are limited on who can buy them on top of that.
The IS did have Capital Missile ships. That is an anti warship dropship. Changing the parameters to now say lasers is not the original complaint. I think it is bs that the didn't allow the IS to build energy based anti warships dropships, but oh well. It would have shut down the clans invasion much sooner, destroying their plans for the future. You know, where they make more money by keeping the game going?
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ghostrider
02/09/21 04:17 AM
66.74.60.165
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Oh yeah. The IS had books saying exactly what forces and how many the clans had, so they could fight far differently then they did. Maybe the leaders and their advisors just couldn't read, or got the books after the clans invaded, due to the post office having a delay.
From the sounds of it, you have not played any games that you did not know the exact forces you faced before beginning. And you always had more forces then you needed. If you hadn't, then the repeat of sending everything at once because they only had this many would not be done.
Again, I will ask. How did the IS know the clans only had x amount of ships. They could well have had double or triple that amount and just had them hang back. Oh yeah. The books tells you exactly what they had, so the house leaders knew that in an instant.
Diana was not the only person born of two trueborns. There were plenty of them in the clan worlds. Diana was being trained before Aidan did what he did. So the statement, Yes they are civilians – not warriors, is false. Diana was not the first.
How many nukes were sent out during the Shadow war? Or the 4th war. Or 3039. Even the Skye rebellion? So yeah. Cold war does fit. You did something stupid and the enemy would retaliate. But on earth you can get to the enemy in a few days with old midevil ships, to a few hours with todays tech. It is a far cry from light years, or even getting to the edge of the solar system.
It is very clear what would happen if the DC killed a Jaguar warship. It would bloody the Jaguars noses to the other clans, and cause them to drop any sort of Batchall or honor combat. Especially if they were nukes. You would see the Amaris war all over again in the DC. Other clans would get involved as it would be seen that the DC would never allow the destruction to be limited. It would be genocide of the DC. Might take a few months to get there, but it would happen.
Opinion? You have said the DC would retaliate against any sort of face loss, which mean if they get their heads handed to them, they have to go back to remove that stain. Or the entire force would have to die, as retreat would never be an option. Losing a battle is losing your honor. So no. The DC would never stop the 1st war if the maintained that strict concept of bushido.
The wardens would not try to negotiate a peace treaty. Ulric might, but the rest of them would demand full destruction of the Dezgra Amaris soldiers. They would remove the Jaguars from the invasion, but would open up the bid to more forces to remove the stain on the IS that the users of nukes would bring.
Again. The game does not have nuke being able to wipe out a system with a single nuke. And no matter what you say, nuclear missiles alone would be shot down. Not many fighters on a warship, but a warship is not alone. You might be able to do it once with the initial sneak attack, but they will adapt to make sure you can't do it again. And it would have to be manned in order to get past the ECM the ships would have. Remote guidence would not work.
The U.S getting involved in the WWs was more forced on the U.S. We tried to remain out of it, while supporting the Allies side of it. The arrogance and ignorance of the leaders in the Hawian islands is why the Japanese strike worked so well. Had the U.S really wanted in, they would have been more prepared. We thought the ocean protected us from it. We were wrong.
Wait. The person that thinks you can move forces across several jumps at a moments notice is saying it takes time for things to be moved? What happened? I doubt you have come to the realization that a single base can not be used to defend worlds a jump or more apart.
Sure. Launch a nuke against the FC world of Outreach. Even the FWL and CC would respond to that. They want the Dragoons to work for them, even with the admission. Your strike would remove any chance of them gaining access to any tech or units.
Lost the concept of the clans again? You do not bid your entire force unless you have to. A single warrior can be used to defend a fleet of supplies. The only thing is if the attacker decides to use a very small amount. It would more likely be one on one, or maybe up the 3 on the defender. The concept of wasting your forces is changed with the way the clans do things.
The charge of the jump drives is the only thing that might save a jumpship. And to begin with, the jumpship might not be worried, as the IS doesn't outright destroy them normally. But with a hot jump, do you just detach the sails? Continue to bring it in? Or hope the enemy can't close the distance quick enough to stop you? For the most part, if you don't have a charge, the jumpship is a goner.
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Requiem
02/09/21 05:28 AM
1.158.229.22
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How did the IS know the clans only had x amount of ships.
Intelligence gathering over the first couple of waves – human extraction – computer core extraction – taking a photographs of the ships at the jump points - over a period of time all intelligence can be evaluated to create an overall picture of the situation.
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Diana Pryde
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Diana_Pryde
volunteered to become a MechWarrior - passed her training – (ie warrior not civilian)
Basing on her argument of the fact that she was the freeborn child of two trueborns, and ergo not genetically weaker than trueborns, she petitioned the Khan (Marthe Pryde) for the right to compete for a Bloodname. …..
How many nukes were sent out during the Jihad and what types?
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It is very clear what would happen if the DC killed a Jaguar warship.
Sorry but this is a personal supposition, not fact. Others can have different suppositions.
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which mean if they get their heads handed to them, they have to go back to remove that stain.
This is incorrect once more. If defeated by a worthy warrior there is no loss of hour.
Plus to commit ritual suicide this requires the approval of their lord.
Plus if there was a loss on the battlefield, and a loss of honour, the highest officer on the battlefield would be deemed culpable (take responsibility) and they alone would request suicide.
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The wardens would not try to negotiate a peace treaty. Ulric might, but the rest of them would demand full destruction of the Dezgra Amaris soldiers.
Again a personal assumption.
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The game does not have nuke being able to wipe out a system with a single nuke.
However if you could find a means of causing the sun to go super-nova …. No more system!
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nuclear missiles alone would be shot down.
A warhead on an aerospace missile is way smaller than a fighter so good luck with that! And then there is the issue of how many warships have rear facing weapons to guard their engines?
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but they will adapt to make sure you can't do it again.
How did that work out with Kamikaze? – massive refit of the entire weapon system per ship required to just get close – problem it there is always a blind spot .
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The arrogance and ignorance of the leaders in the Hawian islands is why the Japanese strike worked so well.
Sorry but this is not true! Husband E. Kimmel was betrayed by Washington – they never allowed him access to Magic – the entire intelligence system was a bureaucratic mess that did not allow for individuals to go back and re-evaluate the information obtained - also rather than telephoning him of an immediate attack Harold Rainsford Stark (aka Betty)to which his assistant believed as they were exiting the room belived he was about to make the call hung up and for some very strange reason decided to sent a telegram which was never marked as urgent – and there was atmospheric problems - thus he received it after the raid.
O n May 25, 1999, the United States Senate, by a vote of 52–47, passed a non-binding resolution to exonerate Kimmel and Short
The Senate enquiry in 2000 issued a lengthy exoneration of Kimmel's conduct.
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Launch a nuke against the FC world of Outreach. Even the FWL and CC would respond to that.
Must be considered at the period in which the Lords were requested to visit Outreach when breaking the news as to their perfidy.
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if you don't have a charge, the jumpship is a goner.
Hot loading can take a few hours - It is a well-known (but rarely executed) maneuver, for example, to jump from one of a star system's standard jump points to the other.
On 10 July 3058 the Liu, since acquired by Warrior House Hiritsu, came under attack in the Sakhalin system and made an emergency jump to the Kaifeng zenith jump point without furling its jump sail. It arrived with visible battle damage and a shredded jump sail, and without its DropShips.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/09/21 01:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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Checking to see what ships were seen is NOT knowing how many ships they had. The IS has been ones to shift troops from elsewhere, but there are units that never saw the borders on one side of their realms. The March Militias being a good one to start with. Those on the DC side, particularly near the OA, were not used on the CC border. Other then ages of collecting intel, the CC may never have been aware of that, or in direct contact with the DC and exchanging such knowledge.
As for the books, we know what was in the IS was NOT all they had.
But then protecting your other assets while in a fight hasn't been a strong point in your posts.
Many people volunteered to become warriors. Many made it, as much as the Falcons allowed 'freeborns' into the mix. And for them, the parents don't matter about being free born, anything outside of the Ironwomb was freeborn. If not for Aidans actions, she would never have been allowed to compete for a blood name. The Falcons broke their own tradition for that reason.
The worthy opponent is the key here. The FS was a joke to the DC during the 1st war. It was only slightly better then the LC. It had the forces on paper, but not the skills to back it up. The inroads made during the first few months showed this. They were bandit rabble to the DC. And yet, did not break.
Yeah. Good way to make sure the game never has a future. Wipe out stars. That destroys any chance of the system being useful to anyone. And that would cause all others to focus on killing those that did so. Your threat would have to be taken out.
And what do you know, LRMS are smaller then nukes are. And yet AMS take them down. Something the game doesn't do, but would be able to in real life is, I don't know, firing up the engines to destroy things in it's wake. Vaporizing it instantaneously. And again. The warship would not be alone. ECM does mess with guidance systems as well. Moving the warship, such as any direction and moving would do a lot. And any sort of signal would be cut off at a point, so remote detonation wouldn't work.
As for rear firing weapons, I don't know of a single warship that doesn't have rear firing weapons. In fact to bombard a world, you have to have them there.
It's not true that the leaders were arrogant that the fleet in Pearl Harbor would deter the Japanese from making a strike? It was not ignorant in the fact that this same thought caused those same leaders to ignore evidence as it came in? Guess that looking glass you use is really warped.
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Requiem
02/09/21 04:47 PM
1.158.229.22
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Checking to see what ships were seen is NOT knowing how many ships they had.
If you only see a limited fleet plus you have been informed as to the Clan bidding process then you cam make an assumption that this amount is what was bid for the Invasion – In addition if your spy network takes an individual who confirms this amount / takes a computer core that also confirms this amount then you are in all doubt on the right track.
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… the CC may never have been aware of that, or in direct contact with the DC and exchanging such knowledge.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Concord_of_Kapteyn
13 October 3022 – Concord of Kapteyn …. called for an end to hostilities and mutual support in training and intelligence.
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we know what was in the IS was NOT all they had.
In 3051, during a lull in the Invasion, Jaime Wolf called a conference on Outreach
There he explained everything ….. even the point that the majority of their forces was still in the Clan Home worlds – which begs the point as to why you would waste the 15 years of peace and only kill off one Clan ….. any sane person ould have used this time to amass a force that is the equal of ALL of The Clans thus the IS has the ability to take on and kill off ALL of the Cland in the event the Clans do not stand down post bulldog / serpent …..
Which demonstrates that the story has completely and utterly lost the plot!
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But then protecting your other assets while in a fight hasn't been a strong point in your posts.
Hanse Davion has never been seen as the lamb leaving behind the majority of his forces (92% as per Clan Records) in order to only attack with 8% of his forces as per the Canon writings.
He would do the complete reverse – strike with 92% and hold back 8%.
This is also the same for Takashi Kurita ….
So where is ever shown that any leader must be the lamb and sit back and protect and do nothing in order to win a war?
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The Falcons broke their own tradition for that reason.
More likely Marthe Pryde was feeling guilty for stabbing Aiden in the back ….
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The worthy opponent is the key here.
Takashi Kurita considered Hanse Davion a very worthy enemy for he realized that if he did not go for the kill on the first move Hanse would … he was deeply respected …. His loss was felt by Takashi deeply.
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Yeah. Good way to make sure the game never has a future.
Cannon Fact ….. how many worlds were killed off by the TPTB during the Jihad? …. How many were killed off just to kill the Master?
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AMS
Where is it written that an AMS can be situated upon a warship? Also what is the range of an AMS compared to a nuclear detonation? Remember even a close detonation will kill off a warship.
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ECM does mess with guidance systems as well.
And if it is just point and shoot with no guidance system or the DC pilot decides to Kamikaze?
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remote detonation wouldn't work.
Godzilla – analog detonation.
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rear firing weapons
To fight off aerospace fighters?
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Pearl Harbor - Guess that looking glass you use is really warped.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-almost-everyone-failed-prepare-pearl-harbor-1-180961144/
There are many books on the subject as well as very good documentaries …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/09/21 07:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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Stop mixing the books saying exactly what they had and what the combatants knew. The IS had NO clue on what the clans had in their fleets. By suggesting that the DC knew what the clans bid says they did know how many they had. Battles do not have every single force in their possession show up for a single battle. There should always be a reserve if possible, and the attacker is more likely to have and hide that. The defender tends to be stuck with everything they haveon hand.
Oh yeah. When did the IS have spies in clan space? When did they confirm that only so many warships were in the IS at the time of Turtle Bay? Or for any time even after they hit Huntress? The book says this, but they did not have the book to rely upon.
And before the 4th war and the treaty? Did the CC know of every last unit the FS/FC had? Not likely.
Let's see. A limited strike on the worst of the clans that could be done within a decade, and would not be seen as an attack against all the clans verse a full scale war against all of them, and would cause the other clans to respond, as they WOULD NOT wait until the invading clans couldn't stop them before reaching the home worlds. Gee. That is the smartest way to go about this? Oh yeah. Destroy all your forces hoping you could eliminate the clans. And how many units would happen to go along with this from the FLW and CC? Yeah. open up to being hit by them...
Where did you come up with the FS hitting the CC with that many forces? 30 regiments out of 100+ available to him. And how many never left the worlds they were protecting before the war? More then 50% of the AFFS was left to defend their worlds. If not for the LC agreeing to hit the DC, there would have been even less offensive troops in the CC.
I would also suggest you reread how the states were before the 4th war. Maybe 10 regiments at a time was sent in to attack a neighbor. If not for the false intel the CC got, the war would never have been that large in scope.
Making me wonder if you are even reading the same game material as the rest of us.
Hanse Davion has never been seen as the lamb leaving behind the majority of his forces (92% as per Clan Records) in order to only attack with 8% of his forces as per the Canon writings.
Canon writing being the ONLY factual writing there is, and you suggest he was never seen attacking with only 8% of his forces? He did that constantly before the 4th war.
Timeline is the key to the DC not stopping the 1st war. Takahashi and Hanse were not born at that time. When the SLDF failed, the DC considered both the FS and LC as inferior. For them to hold back, much less counter attack them was seen as losing face. The DCMS could not protect their own during the little counter invasion from the FS, and really didn't do much against the LC. Get your facts straight about the time frame. With siding with the RWR the DC actively looks like the thought the SLDF was beneath them as well.
And yet the game still continued. So the worlds destroyed by the stupid Jihad crap, and most agree it was stupid, the game didn't end at that point. Now having the ability to destroy entire systems, not just a world, would have finally got it down to no habitable systems and any that were, no starts to use the jump sails on, meaning almost all jumps would be hot loads. And worse, if the worlds with the jump ship makers were the ones hit first, the idea of using jumpships goes down in history of what was.
The Avalon warship has AMS on it. Several SLDF warships had the Barracuda missile launchers on the rear, which were anti fighter weapons. The Fox had ams and pulse lasers on the rear. Look up more in the books. As the rear areas is where fighters tend to focus on as well as bridges, so yeah, they do have anti fighter weapons there.
Now firing a bomb means that the target can not move, otherwise you miss. And the game does NOT have a nuke take out a raduis of 30,000 km. Which makes you wonder how the SDS worked so well.
Oh yeah. Nukes were not as powerful as other missiles in the game, so that whole line of thought it history.
Reread the posts before responding. Not being prepared is very much the say thing as being ignorant. You said they were not ignorant or arrogant in believing the Japanese would not attack. So why would they be prepared if them were one or both of those?
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Cray
02/09/21 09:02 PM
71.47.151.234
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Quote:
Where is it written that an AMS can be situated upon a warship?
Requiem, Tech Manual and Strategic Operations clearly list AMS as fitting on WarShips. Just check the equipment tables.
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Also what is the range of an AMS compared to a nuclear detonation? Remember even a close detonation will kill off a warship.
Per the point defense rules in Strategic Operations, the range of AMS's is "point defense," which means they can engage any missile: capital, sub-capital, standard, and hard point-mounted, regardless of the warhead.
A check on the nuclear weapon rules (Interstellar Operations, Liberation of Terra, etc.) would show that, like in reality, nuclear weapons are neutered in space because they don't have an atmosphere to help transmit their blast wave. They're radiation flash bulbs that only bother WarShips if they detonate very close to the hulls or after impact, hence giving AMSs the normal chance to defeat their delivery vehicle (capital missiles or hard point-mounted missiles) are utterly vulnerable to AMSs.
AMSs are workhorses of defeating missiles for WarShips and other aerospace units. Their ability to engage multiple threats per turn and defend other units puts them head and shoulders above any other point defense weapon in BattleTech.
This thread has reached a practical end, so I'm locking it.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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