User talk:Madness Divine


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-- New user message (talk) 22:03, 23 November 2021 (EST)

A/An Grammar Edits[edit]

Hello. I have a question regarding your grammar edits to some articles. In the Narukami and Commando articles, for instance, you replace "a" with "an" where the displayed text it precedes would normally require an "a". I'm curious if I am mistaken or you did mass edits searching for "a XL" and it caught wiki-text (not displayed) by mistake. Those are the only two articles I reviewed, there may be more.--Cache (talk) 13:28, 22 December 2021 (EST)

Sorry for the Blackjack revert[edit]

Hiya, just wanted to say sorry for accidentally rolling back your edit on the Blackjack. This keeps happening when I check the Recent Changes on my cellphone, I just hit the "rollback" button while scrolling and half of the time don't even realize I did it. Had nothing to do with your work on the article. I was going to revert it again to your version, but saw you'd already done it. Keep going! :) Frabby (talk) 14:07, 28 December 2021 (EST)

No problem. My clumsy fingers would do the same thing. Madness Divine (talk) 11:46, 29 December 2021 (EST)

Did it again, sorry! You probably saw what was going on. Frabby (talk) 08:38, 2 April 2022 (EDT)

A bit too much back pain to think of it last night. It occurred to me this morning. Sorry if I seemed curt. Madness Divine (talk) 09:59, 2 April 2022 (EDT)

Impertinent comentary on an Admins edits[edit]

MD, I don't appreciate you reverting my edit on A Place as not an improvement, your comment comes across as Impertinent and borderline disrespectful. You have been doing very good work thus far, don't spoil it by annoying the people in charge.--Dmon (talk) 20:07, 28 January 2022 (EST)

Four minor points[edit]

Hiya, I saw a few things in your edits that I wanted to raise with you:

  • The preferred spelling for "aerospace fighter", as far as I recall the old BattleCorps style guide, was all lowercase and in any case no CamelCase/capital "S".
  • And in the Phoenix (novel) article, the Mad Jumpin Jacks are actually spelled/named thus, without the apostrophe. Seems to be a strange mix of english words with German punctuation, but still. (It's an original, German-only novel.)
  • In the same article, you removed the hyphen from co-founder. But according to my admittedly shallow research, co-founder is actually the correct spelling, or at least permissible.
  • Finally, I don’t think it is appropriate to correct citations from the back covers of books or other products. They’re citations, after all, and arguably shouldn’t be edited. May just be me though.

:) Frabby (talk) 02:18, 6 February 2022 (EST)

Hey mad one, thanks for your reply. Point of order, post discussion points to the user talk page, not the user page. People get pinged by the system when new their talk pages are edited (like you presumably were for this text), not so for user pages which are used for and by users to write stuff about themselves. Editing another userpage (as opposed to their talk page) is generally considered a no-go on wikis. No harm done though, I've moved your reply to my talk page. Another advice is that most of the time, when a discussion emerges on a given user’s (or article's) talk page even with several participants, the discussion stays where it is so that it remains readable. As such, you could have replied right here on your talk page. I wouldn’t get a ping then, but would have checked your talk page for a reply occasionally. If you add to a talk page discussion, make sure to indent your text one step further than the previous poster, by prefixing one more colon (:).
On the subject matter of how to spell AeroSpace Fighter, I was very surprised to read that on our style guide - we originally decided to follow the BC style guide so I don't know where thst came from. I'll have to look into matters here abd see what the current "correct" firm is supposed to be. Busy right now with rl stuff right now so it will be a day or two. Frabby (talk) 04:49, 6 February 2022 (EST)
Oops. I thought I was writing on your User Talk page. The hazards of several days of insomnia. Madness Divine (talk) 12:52, 6 February 2022 (EST)
Regarding "aerospace fighter": In the latest Total Warfare, it is not capitalized. When capitalized in a title, the "s" is not capitalized.
The urge to make a cynical comment about the odds some other recent products having the old CamelCase form... I've left off trying to make it match the MOS. Madness Divine (talk) 02:52, 7 February 2022 (EST)

Not all hyphens are evil[edit]

Hi, just wanted to inform you that I rolled back your edits regarding Bone-Norman. Because, well, that’s the proper name of this system. Not a grammar or style issue. :) Frabby (talk) 00:40, 7 February 2022 (EST)

Its wiki page has a hyphen, recent CGL products have a hyphen, it's 0346 local time and I'm not bothering to go through products and make a case for when it was changed. Thanks for the heads-up, though. Madness Divine (talk) 02:49, 7 February 2022 (EST)

Welcome and Hello[edit]

Hey Madness, I'm BobTheZombie, and I noticed you just passed me in edits after only a few months, which is pretty awesome (and I'm kinda jealous lol). I've been out of the game for a bit, but lemme know if you wanna team up on any proofreading projects, I'm always hankering for some editing ;) -BobTheZombie (talk) 10:36, 15 February 2022 (EST)

Hi Bob. I'm mostly focussing on misspellings and similar things that catch my eye because they don't take a lot of attention. Some of the stuff I've slapped a cleanup template are wince inducing because it looks like they've been run through Google Translate before posting; I would appreciate it if you'd have a go at some of those. I'm stealing some moments between bridge hands right now. Madness Divine (talk) 13:48, 15 February 2022 (EST)
Darn, I'm also trying to squeeze out small edits here at work... I'll have to save the longer edits for home, and I'll have varying free time for that. I'll try to work more on that stuff tho. Do you have any pages or lists in particular, or just the ole { { cleanup } } tag? -BobTheZombie (talk) 17:25, 15 February 2022 (EST)
I've been through so many I can't think of a single one. I had to go about half a dozen pages of my contributions (@500 per) to find the last one I did, on 1 February. You check out Pserratv's work; I'm pretty sure English isn't their first language but they're incredibly productive. Madness Divine (talk) 17:41, 15 February 2022 (EST)
Yeah Pserratv is not a native speaker of English, he is spanish. But he knows his english is not always top notch and takes corrections with good grace. He is another one of our powerhouse editors.--Dmon (talk) 17:49, 15 February 2022 (EST)

Casual Edit Award[edit]

I can't believe I am the first to hand you one of these. I know we haven't spoken before, but I see you at it every day, and I just wanted you to know your efforts at "cleanup" are noted and appreciated!
Casual Edit Award, 1st ribbon Talvin (talk) 14:15, 25 February 2022 (EST)

Thank you. Madness Divine (talk) 14:48, 25 February 2022 (EST)

Technical Readout: 3050 Upgrade[edit]

Hello again! You added the cleanup tag to Technical Readout: 3050 Upgrade with "needs quote from back cover rewritten". We discussed this over in the Discord server, and Revanche has clarified that we do not change those: they are direct quotes. Is there some reason that one in particular needs attention? Unless it deviates from the actual text, it should be left alone. Talvin (talk) 20:34, 1 March 2022 (EST)

It differs markedly from the actual text. The 2007 and 2009 editions of Upgrade both begin with "Over two hundred and fifty years ago", just like the original and Revised; the CGL store blurb matches the print editions. I was in a hurry so I slapped on the cleanup tag and moved on.
This isn't the first "direct quote" I've run across that was inaccurate but they're usually reasonably close. I'll paste in the CGL store text and check it. Guess I should have checked the store first. Madness Divine (talk) 21:09, 1 March 2022 (EST)
Ah! I see. I am passing this on to others in the Discord so they can keep an eye out for any where the text does not match. Though, I must raise the question of "Different printing?" I know that different editions and printings of books sometimes have different cover texts. Talvin (talk) 21:18, 1 March 2022 (EST)
In this case, 2007 and 2009 (2nd Printing) are PDF editions but lack the Upgrades rather than Upgrade in the quoted text. The 2007 doesn't have the usual Version x.x or back cover appearing immediately after the front that seem to be the usual signs of PDF releases rather than scans.
I have noticed that some of the CCG cards' pages use different titles than what appears on the card in the image on the page. I expect if I looked closely I'd run across more minor inaccuracies; I only noticed the TRO because I'm trying to check actual quotes before correcting misspellings/less common spellings. Madness Divine (talk) 21:29, 1 March 2022 (EST)


I am granting you a Substantial Addition Award, 1st ribbon for the quite frankly insane amount of work you have been doing on the wiki recently. I have also taken the liberty of installing an awards board on your user page that includes your other awards (Ok you have not quite hit 25k but you are so close that you will do so within the week I reckon). --Dmon (talk) 05:02, 31 March 2022 (EDT)

Thank you. Madness Divine (talk) 05:03, 31 March 2022 (EDT)

Citation Abbreviations[edit]

Just to be consistent with your work when I create new stuff, the standard for these will be p. / pp. for pages, and ch. for chapters? Thanks in advance.HF22 (talk) 22:25, 27 April 2022 (EDT)

Thanks for asking. Standard is p. for single page, pp. for multiple pages (even when there's a comma); with the ch. for chapter I'm following another editor's example. I try to use endashes for sequential pages but no problem if you find it's not worth the extra keystrokes; it's one of formatting things maybe one person in thousands even knows about. Madness Divine (talk) 22:32, 27 April 2022 (EDT)
Thanks - I'll proceed on that basis. HF22 (talk) 02:30, 28 April 2022 (EDT)
To follow up about the ch. thing, I can confirm ch. is the current standard. It is a fairly new thing due to ebooks becoming more and more common. The page numbers in ebooks are often variable so we have had to make a shift to chapters. Still LOTS of older fiction references using p. though.--Dmon (talk) 07:37, 28 April 2022 (EDT)


OK, you keep replacing one dash with another dash. My keyboard has one dash between the 0 and =: - , and this one — if I double it in the RTF text editor, but if I do it here I get --. You have put forth, it seems to me, a lot of effort into replacing one kind with another--and I will confess I am a bit concerned that you replaced ref name=HOKp63-64 with HOKp63p64 because if I have to go back and work with those pages I am going to do what I always do and find that my references are broken. So, may I ask why this is so important, and can we reach some understanding about leaving certain ones alone? Reference names are not even very visible to the reader, they exist for us as editors to work with. --Talvin (talk) 20:36, 29 April 2022 (EDT)

Sorry. My bad - the mental equivalent of feature creep.
Good point on the reference names. I ran into a problem in the past with some showing up in text searches for words but I haven't seen it in a while; mainly I was trying to bring some consistency in naming because Aspergers. I'll leave them alone in future; I'll go back through my recent contributions and see what I need to repair. Is it okay to combine identical references if two copies of one are in the same article or could that cause problems? And is it okay to continue converting strings like <ref name=TEST></ref> into <ref name=TEST />?
The dashes. I'm replacing hyphens with endashes (ALT-0150) or emdashes (ALT-0151) where appropriate but I confess I only work with Firefox and Word. I can easily replace them with &#ndash; and &#mdash; if that will work better for others. Madness Divine (talk) 21:10, 29 April 2022 (EDT)
I honestly was just puzzled by the dash replacements, not bothered. It looks no different to me unless I peer closely at it, but you seemed very intent on it, so I assumed there was some reason you found important. However, in ref names, I am the only person actively working to update from Historical: Operation Klondike at the moment, and redesigning my ref names in the middle of that could be a real problem. If you feel like you need to change <ref name=HOKp20-21>''Historical: Operation Klondike'', pp. 20-21</ref> to have a different dash in the actual citation, I am just going to shrug. If you change the ref name to HOKp20p21 I am going to find an obstacle in my path, and as you are one of the very few people around here with a faster output than mine when on a roll, that's a significant issue. :D So far you only did it in the Sea Fox page that I know of.
As for <ref name=TEST></ref> into <ref name=TEST />? To my understanding, that is already accepted best practice. I try to do that in my work as I go, but if I miss one, please feel free to correct it. The only difference I see being that I don't put a space after the TEST, but I guess that is a matter of personal style.
--Talvin (talk) 21:19, 29 April 2022 (EDT)
Thanks for the laid-back reaction. I'm going back through today's contributions and fixing the ref names where I changed hyphens or colons. I don't think I did any before today.
The space before a slash closing a shared citation is just more visible to me; I know it makes no difference to the wiki code. Madness Divine (talk) 21:28, 29 April 2022 (EDT)
All good. I am a different flavor of neurodivergent (arguably more than one) myself, with ADHD at a minimum, so I get it. I am also still new enough to this (and with enough of the ADHD anxiety) to go, "Oh crap, is there some great significance to which dash I use and nobody told me?" Glad that's not the case. I went ahead and fixed the reference names in History of Clan Sea Fox to my original format. As for Book Publishers? That, do note, I was just grabbing the references from other articles. There is no standard in there, and it probably does need one.
I am almost done with Eden, and then on to Dagda, and then a few odds and sods and I can hopefully close out Update Needed for Historical: Operation Klondike. At least, until somebody finds another article that should have that added. It's a slog, but nowhere as messy as the Steiner books.--Talvin (talk) 21:35, 29 April 2022 (EDT)
Related note: I have been updating from some of the novels as well as H:OK. I fear I have been spelling out "Chapter" rather than putting "ch." I will change that going forward and try to catch any that I already did as well. If you see any, fire at will, no complaints.--Talvin (talk) 16:54, 1 May 2022 (EDT)

I came here following your recent cleanup edit to the Fjaldr article. I note you exchanged the "minus" dash in the system coordinates for, uh, another dash. Since this is supposed to be a (negative) numerical value, I fear this change might upset automated processes where the values are read and used. Why did you feel the change was necessary? Frabby (talk) 03:18, 3 January 2023 (EST)

I changed what appeared to be a hyphen to the minus sign, which is a lot more visible. Was it a hyphen-minus? Word is unable to distinguish the two. Madness Divine (talk) 10:47, 3 January 2023 (EST)

Done with Operation KLONDIKE[edit]

Hey! Just wanted to let you know that I am done with Operation KLONDIKE. If you are willing, feel free to tweak stuff, it won't interfere with anything I am doing. Not sure what I will turn to next. Thanks for all you do!--Talvin (talk) 12:16, 7 May 2022 (EDT)

Thanks for the heads-up and the acknowledgement. Right back at you on the thanks. Madness Divine (talk) 12:47, 7 May 2022 (EDT)

Assistance with empty notes sections[edit]

Hey Madness Divine, I would like to enlist your assistance in cleaning up something. Going back a few years it was common to copy/paste an entire "help template" to start an article. This means that a lot of older articles have empty sections, specifically notes sections being the worst culprit (see Amaris Regulars for an example). I feel that an article only needs a notes section if there is relevant "out of universe" information like errors or retcons and the like. You hit a lot more articles than I do so would you please help me start removing these empty notes section?--Dmon (talk) 22:43, 10 May 2022 (EDT)

I'll keep an eye out. I do a lot of item-specific searches, which is why I go through so many. Madness Divine (talk) 22:46, 10 May 2022 (EDT)
I imagine there are far too many instances of the word notes a searchable thing anyway. But if you can keep an eye out I would like to think that between us we can at least reduce the number of empty ones! --Dmon (talk) 22:53, 10 May 2022 (EDT)
I did a quick check for "notes references" and showed a bit over 1000 hits. It won't show all of them but it's a good place to start. I'll put it on my "brain isn't working well today, so do mindless stuff" list. Madness Divine (talk) 22:57, 10 May 2022 (EDT)
Madness Divine: as you may have noticed, I have started taking a stab at this myself. It's an all-you-can-eat Buffet, plenty for everyone. ;) I am going through the "Stub" category as a lot of those have that section sitting empty. You use a different search method, I believe, so we should complement each other's methods nicely.--Talvin (talk) 09:36, 11 May 2022 (EDT)
And I have a third method, I hit the random page button and look at what turns up!--Dmon (talk) 09:40, 11 May 2022 (EDT)
Once I got through the numbered part of Stub (1st Whatever Fusiliers, etc.), it dried up fast, so I switched over to Category:Mercenary Commands. Going to slowly go through the different subcategories of Category:Military Commands, that's where a lot of them are. Also removing any empty or functionally-empty Rules sections as I go.--Talvin (talk) 11:59, 11 May 2022 (EDT)

Have at it, folks. I'm happy to have one less shiny thing to be distracted by. Madness Divine (talk) 12:27, 11 May 2022 (EDT)


Just noticed the "redundant" note on Mitchell Loris. I think Dmon is trying to get rid of all the titles and positions boxes in favor of something else, might want to ask him.--Talvin (talk) 20:08, 14 May 2022 (EDT)

I think he's the one who's been removing all the lede life dates that are already in the infoboxes, which have been left behind. Madness Divine (talk) 20:11, 14 May 2022 (EDT)
Aff to both of those things being redundant, the lede life dates stem from way, way back before we had a character infobox and the Titles and Positions boxes where my first attempt at a standard format for the titles. The code is pretty fragile and breaks easily so I changed over to what would become Category:Titles and Positions.--Dmon (talk) 20:58, 14 May 2022 (EDT)

Empty Sections and Commenting[edit]

Hello Madness Divine. I thought I would share the following (hopefully helpful) tip. (If you are already familiar with this, then my advance apologies for the redunancy.) When removing a standard section that is empty, one option is commenting or "remming" it out. One advantage of commenting, in comparison to deleting, is that if new information appears that would inhabit that section, then uncommenting it is easier than re-entering the section header. This is definitely a matter of taste in many cases, though for standard sections that are empty (but which may make a return) this can be a helpful tactic to know. Of course, for things being banished to the ether never to return, deletion, preceded by drawing and quartering, works quite well.

The code for commenting out is as follows

<!--Commented out due to lack of information

Happy Trails --Dude RB (talk) 21:28, 16 May 2022 (EDT)

Thanks. There didn't seem to be any point retaining References sections on product articles, considering how rarely they're used. Madness Divine (talk) 21:31, 16 May 2022 (EDT)
It is definitely a matter of taste and personal judgement, and I have no fault to find. It just occurred to me to share as I see that you are a quest to vanquish empty sections (which is a valiant quest). Have a great day. --Dude RB (talk) 21:40, 16 May 2022 (EDT)

Help with Google-Fu[edit]

Hey MD: you appear to be the Search-Master on this Wiki. I am trying to embark on a project to identify and move all the Files that have & in the name, because that character breaks things: the images won't show up on pages, I think this is an issue from one of the MediaWiki updates. Problem: & is not accepted as a Search term by MediaWiki, and Google is failing me. Do you have any insights into a workaround? I hate to think I will have to go through the File space "by hand" and find these, but it's the only option I am seeing. One example of a broken file: File:SLDFBattleMech DivisionTO&E.jpg The only constant in the broader issue is the &, however. --Talvin (talk) 11:06, 18 May 2022 (EDT)

I wish I could help. I thought search engines like Google strip out punctuation entirely until I was testing things just now. I did a couple of quick searches for "Art & Fiction" and "Art and Fiction" on Sarna and got different results, and I have noticed in the past that searches for numbers work with text but not without it. Same result with Google just now, but Google often omits some Sarna results and doesn't update very often.
I think it might be a broader issue with punctuation in filenames and targets - redirects to target sections with punctuation marks in them only go to the article. Design Quirks is a nightmare for that. One of the old hands like Dmon might know what's going on.
I wish there were magic in my searching abilities. It would be nice not wasting time searching through all results of a string to find just the hyphenated/unhyphenated or the ed/ing/s suffix of similar words. Madness Divine (talk) 12:51, 18 May 2022 (EDT)

Classic BattleTech Universe booklet editions[edit]

Hiya, I just noted this 6 January addition of yours to the Classic BattleTech Universe article: "At least one edition of the 2005 standalone FanPro product used the same logo as the Classic BattleTech Boxed Set." Can you cite a source? Is it possible that you're mixing this up with another edition of the universe booklet, like this one: Introduction to BattleTech? Frabby (talk) 09:57, 7 June 2022 (EDT)

It's quite possible; the PDFs I have are inconclusive when I look at them today. I'll take it out. Madness Divine (talk) 14:24, 7 June 2022 (EDT)

Condensing citations[edit]

Hey MD,

Just looking at your work on Free Worlds League Military, I don't usually have a problem with your work, but I noticed that you have condensed all the naval warship citations. I do not think this is the way the wiki should go. Individual citations for each and every ship is a good thing.--Dmon (talk) 04:44, 10 June 2022 (EDT)

I remember asking someone about something what to do with citations being put in the section headings and they told me to move them to the bottom of the list. I assumed it's okay to combine the citations in other lists of the same type. I'll try to limit it to the section header ones in future. Madness Divine (talk) 20:25, 10 June 2022 (EDT)
Yeah, Section headers shouldn't have citations I think it just looks bad. Just having one citation at the end of a list is not incorrect as such, I just think it is better to have each item cited for clarity (similar to the way that we often double-up on citations from different sources confirming the same info).--Dmon (talk) 21:05, 10 June 2022 (EDT)

Rifleman/men & Hatchetman/men[edit]

You're a popular guy here! Thanks for all the work you do. So regarding the plural of Hatchetman, I originally changed the suffix to men in the plural because A) I see that it's done that way for the Rifleman many times on its page (and several other pages), and B) In-game, MW5 refers to it that way. Of course, they could both be wrong, but it certainly rolls off the tongue easier. I wonder if there's a BT sourcebook that can act as the authority for which word we go with, then we can fix all for consistency. --Csdavis715 (talk) 12:32, 13 June 2022 (EDT)

I did a search through my PDFs and Riflemans is more common than Riflemen in the searchable non-fiction, mainly in the more recent ones. Hatchetmans only showed up once while Hatchetmen appeared several times before I had to stop the search; I have no idea whether the hits were in fiction or non-fiction. I may continue searching today. Madness Divine (talk) 12:54, 14 June 2022 (EDT)
My far-from-scientific analysis, based on whichever searchable PDFs I have that are official, English, and not fiction, with Volume 8 being the most recent Recognition Guide: ilClan I have:
  • Hatchetmen (7, most recent 2019) vs. Hatchetmans (1, 2015)
  • Riflemen (3, most recent 2016) vs. Riflemans (6, most recent 2020)
  • Axmen (2, most recent 2019) vs. Axmans (4, most recent 2020)
Looks like Hatchetmen is a clear winner. Madness Divine (talk) 19:47, 16 June 2022 (EDT)
Thanks for checking the sources. Do you think it would be appropriate to change all Hatchetmans to Hatchetmen without also changing those for the Rifleman and Axman? If not, we can leave them all with the suffix mans (unless there's a reason why it was changed to men for the Hatchetman specifically). --Csdavis715 (talk) 20:32, 16 June 2022 (EDT)
Changing only Hatchetmans to Hatchetmen sounds appropriate; the others... pretty low on my priority list. I have no idea why Hatchetmen has been so much more consistent a plural than the others 'Mechs use. Madness Divine (talk) 20:43, 16 June 2022 (EDT)

Text replacement suggestions[edit]

These are a couple of the suggested replacements that I see in your edits that could have good cases to use this tool with. In the same style please suggest to me others, and I will let you know when they are done. I do have to say that the tool can only do 250 changes at a time so if there are more cases then that I have to run it another time:

  • [[First Succession War (Sourcebook)|First Succession War]] -> [[First Succession War (sourcebook)|First Succession War]]
  • ''Field Report 2765: Federated Suns'' -> ''Field Report 2765: AFFS''
  • ''Field Report 2765: Draconis Combine'' -> ''Field Report 2765: DCMS''

Thanks. (Sorry, exhausted and keep rewriting what to say.) These two would be a good start:
  • personnell → personnel
  • targetted → targeted
A lot of what's on my list is context-based so finding it quickly isn't easy. I'll let you know when I find others that would be helpful. Madness Divine (talk) 18:50, 5 July 2022 (EDT)
I can perfectly understand, which is why it is used selectively with the changes made public for the ease of reversing the change. I have made this page here for all suggestions users have, and will add those two there. --Deadfire (talk) 18:57, 5 July 2022 (EDT)

Tireless Contributor Award[edit]

With seven months and 41,448 edits (at the time of this post, an average of 192 a day), you have made it a mission of yours to improve the wiki through the extensive copy-editing of others, myself included. There is no doubt the readability of any particular article & clarity of intent has been improved for every page you've set your sights on. The Tireless Contributor Award requires the approval of the Admin Council and it was accepted in record time due to the high regard in which your efforts are held. Thank you for your efforts, and please keep the steam on.

Tireless Contributor Award, 1st ribbon
--Revanche (talk|contribs) 19:45, 25 July 2022 (EDT)
Thank you very much. The recognition is much appreciated. Madness Divine (talk) 20:10, 25 July 2022 (EDT)


Are you on the Sarna server under a different name?--Revanche (talk|contribs) 12:58, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

Nope. Is someone doing similar edits? Madness Divine (talk) 13:01, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
No, not at all. (I meant on the Discord server.) Just had something to share that is a bit more of personal interest to you than can be shared openly here. --Revanche (talk|contribs) 13:30, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
I made a brief attempt to get on Discord but the interface confused me in my exhausted state. I can give it another go. Madness Divine (talk) 14:52, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
Okay, I got it to work. I now feel intense loathing for their captcha designer and his kickbacks from opticians. I'm under the same screen name. Madness Divine (talk) 15:06, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

Targeting-tracking system‎‎[edit]

Awfully brave to be taking on an article with 1,228 citations! Power to ya. --Revanche (talk|contribs) 19:44, 4 August 2022 (EDT)

Especially since I already noticed one error in the first section. Madness Divine (talk) 19:48, 4 August 2022 (EDT)
Do you consider Manufacturing to be one section, or 27? --Revanche (talk|contribs) 20:06, 4 August 2022 (EDT)
A, then B, then oy vey what have I gotten myself into? Madness Divine (talk) 20:19, 4 August 2022 (EDT)
Power to ya, mate. --Revanche (talk|contribs) 20:25, 4 August 2022 (EDT)
I would be inclined to call you mad for tackling that one!--Dmon (talk) 11:47, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
Touched by the hand of at least one god. Madness Divine (talk) 12:09, 5 August 2022 (EDT)

Thanks for checking all the stuff I'm curious about![edit]

I appreciate your help, I have no books and there's so much fuzzy stuff out there. I dunno how to do it (also a bit nervous editing another person's page), but consider this me giving you a Random Act of Appreciation Award! -Breenland (talk) 16:42, 5 August 2022 (EDT)

Thank you. Madness Divine (talk) 17:15, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
Pssst...heard you were in the market for a ribbon. (Go to the associated gallery and grab the code.)--Revanche (talk|contribs) 18:36, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
Just two more and I'll have more torso armour than a Hussar. Madness Divine (talk) 18:49, 5 August 2022 (EDT)

Wolf Spiders[edit]

Thank you for the correction to my misunderstanding of the Wolf Spiders as a 'Mech. However, the article is awkward: the term "Wolf Spiders" is first used in a way that doesn't introduce to the uninitiated (myself included) who they are. The disambiguation page didn't really help me narrow the scope down, either, so I didn't feel right in adding a direct wikilink to the appropriate page. If you're in the know, can you do so?--Revanche (talk|contribs) 14:32, 16 August 2022 (EDT)

Had to go all the way back to the original Tukayyid but found confirmation on page 92. Linked it but I don't know if it deserves a citation. Madness Divine (talk) 14:45, 16 August 2022 (EDT)
That certainly improves it. Thanks.--Revanche (talk|contribs) 15:12, 16 August 2022 (EDT)


On your suggestion I have made the Terminology use transclusion to take all the terms already found in these pages Category:Terminology. However there is a few things that will need a clean-up, (that if you are up for it) I can't think of anyone better that could get them done then yourself. Items to clean-up on those pages are duplicates, definitions that are too long to be useful (as these definitions will display whenever an term/abbreviation is hovered over in an article), general formatting, and the creation of a page for a listing of abbreviations. I posted instructions on how this extension works on Talk:Terminology § Terminology instructions to assist editing glossaries. I will be assisting as I can, though on this subject I am looking at how Extension:Semantic Glossary works with this (as it is also installed). --Deadfire (talk) 15:39, 16 August 2022 (EDT)

I've already bitten off so much I'm not sure I can chew it all. Maybe, but I wouldn't count on more than text proofing. Madness Divine (talk) 16:17, 16 August 2022 (EDT)


I took my note from this guidance (from a discussion with CGL). "Good job, lieutenants: with the exception of a few...". If I were addressing one lieutenant (or tai-i), I would capitalize it. (Ex: "Good morning, Lieutenant. And you as well, Tai-i.") But the plural form is not capitalized. --Revanche (talk|contribs) 13:06, 17 August 2022 (EDT)

Make it so, Tai-i.--Revanche (talk|contribs) 13:35, 17 August 2022 (EDT)

On Server[edit]

  1. 1 --Revanche (talk|contribs) 12:39, 26 August 2022 (EDT)

Thanks for correcting my mistakes[edit]

Hi, I just wanted to say thanks for going through my edits and correcting the grammar and sentence structuring etc. I hope I am not making you frustrated. Looking through your edits I can clearly see I need to use the word "would" a lot less. lol. Beaky (talk) 19:08, 3 September 2022 (EDT)

You're welcome. Don't worry, editing your work isn't frustrating. All the typos I'm making writing this, that's mild frustration. Madness Divine (talk) 19:36, 3 September 2022 (EDT)

Sorting order[edit]

I rolled back your edit in Legends of the Kestrel Grenadiers: the "von" part in German nobility names isn’t considered a part of the name for the purpose of alphabetical sorting. Dmon and myself worked this out a while ago, and I had confirmed this with my sister-in-law who is a linguist. Frabby (talk) 13:10, 13 November 2022 (EST)

In English-speaking countries, it's considered part of the surname and sorted under V; it seems reasonable to assume the same thing happened elsewhere. Madness Divine (talk) 13:18, 13 November 2022 (EST)
Argh! And here was me assuming there would be a unified ruling on this - it never occurred to me that English-speaking countries would change the rules. The BT default style is CMOS, need to find out if that has something to say on the matter then. And even if not, since this is an English-speaking wiki if the V is really considered part of the name for sorting reasons Dmon and I need to revisit and fix this then. Thanks for the heads-up! Frabby (talk) 08:49, 14 November 2022 (EST)
Hey guys, as both an academic and casual writer, this discussion really interests me and I hope you don't mind me chiming in. My first thought on how "von Richter" would be sorted was to compare it to Ludwig van Beethoven, who is also German, and in English-speaking countries it's always under B. I just checked the APA, MLA, and Chicago style manuals and they generally all say the same thing: 1) try to follow the preferences or traditions of the person/name's origin, and 2) use the first capitalized letter, which in most cases means ignoring the particle (van/von/der/de/de la/etc.) when alphabetizing. Here's where things get tricky: in the text before you start these MW5 missions, Elias calls himself Von Richter, but then once you start playing the 2nd mission, he refers to his house as "House Richter," which to me implies it should be sorted under R, and that PGI just goofed and should have made "von" lowercase (I've caught about 1000 other typos and errors, so this wouldn't surprise me). Csdavis715 (talk) 04:34, 15 November 2022 (EST)
I used to do genealogy and was quite interested in how surnaming worked. I'll save the treatise on how it's evolved in my part of Canada beyond saying we had people with nobiliary particles, locatives, bynames, patronymics, clan names, and the-locals-can't-pronounce-it melding together under the British legal system.
I think it comes down to how one thinks of the population of the BattleTech universe. Were there pockets of pure linguistic culture or was it all one big melting pot as it is on this side of the Pond? [snip, snip, snip goes the list of historical minutiae] Madness Divine (talk) 10:18, 15 November 2022 (EST)
I forgot to mention, even lowercase particles are treated as part of the surname here if it's not an historical figure. We have no problem with Beethoven for Ludwig van but if he were alive today he'd be in our phonebook under v if he chose to retain the particle. Madness Divine (talk) 10:22, 15 November 2022 (EST)
So from what Csdavis715 wrote (thanks!), the default is to sort by first capital letter under under Chicago Manual of Style, unless there is a preferred style established. BattleTech defaults to the CMOS except for certain BT-specific things; and Sarna in turn defaults to the CMOS/BT style except for certain Sarna-specific things. (I really need to get that Style Policy article rework done!) By that rationale I think we should continue to ignore the particle for sorting unless canon specifically provides otherwise.
If there is user consensus to do it differently then I have no problem with that either. I just want a decision one way or the other so that there are clear guidelines for editors. Frabby (talk) 17:04, 15 November 2022 (EST)
I'd count the sourcebook indices as canon for sorting purposes, should there be any that begin with a lowercase particle. Madness Divine (talk) 17:10, 15 November 2022 (EST)
That's really cool you did genealogy, MD. I've been curious about learning more about that myself. Anyway, you reminded us that there are differences in style even between English-speaking countries. I'm also aware that BT seems to occasionally use their own standards even if it contradicts standard conventions, such as with mixed formatting (e.g. Flashmans, which anywhere else would have the S also italicized or require an apostrophe before it: Flashman's). MD: let us know what the sourcebooks indicate. I just did a cursory check through the Sarna Lyran characters list, and saw that the majority of the names with lowercase articles are not sorted by them, however there are a few that were. If there is ever consensus on this, we might want to update them for consistency. Csdavis715 (talk) 02:47, 16 November 2022 (EST)
I'll add it to the list. Madness Divine (talk) 14:58, 16 November 2022 (EST)

Geneology info[edit]

Hey Madness,

I removed that info from the captain general article (now for the third time) because it is not information about the title. It is information about the geneology of the characters.--Dmon (talk) 14:01, 17 December 2022 (EST)

It's information about the inheritance of the title, not the genealogy; it illustrates how the title doesn't follow the primogeniture normal to other states.
I think you're just plain wrong on this one. Madness Divine (talk) 14:04, 17 December 2022 (EST)

Removal of the word formally[edit]

Why are you seemingly removing every single instance of the word formally? Yes in some articles it is a redundant word but that does not mean every single instance needs to be removed. Some of the ones I have seen you removing are things like a state formally (aka officially) recognising the existance of another state or other diplomatic situations where the term is very often used.--Dmon (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2023 (EST)

I'm not removing every single instance. Constructions like a state formally recognising another state, formally inducting someone, formally promoting someone are all either two words meaning the same thing or so often used together that only exceptions are normally noted. A fair number have been formally doing something that can only be done formally, like signing a treaty. Madness Divine (talk) 15:52, 28 January 2023 (EST)

BattleTech: un gioco di combattimenti tra corazzati[edit]

After seeing the rulebook image you found for BattleTech: un gioco di combattimenti tra corazzati, I did some searching and found some additional images that appear to be from a Italian edition of BattleTech, 3e. See Talk:BattleTech, Third Edition#Italian edition. However, the rulebook appears to have the artwork from the 2e rulebook and appears to be identical to the cover your found. This opens the question of whether there were two different Italian editions (one for 2e and one for 3e) or whether there was simply one that came out in the transition between 2e and 3e. I would be curious as to whether you have further information on where you found File:Italian BT rulebook cover.jpg or whether there were any accompanying images of the other contents. If so, that may help unwrap this mystery.--Dude RB (talk) 01:48, 11 February 2023 (EST)

The blank record sheets on the inside front cover and the back cover both have "Battletech è un marchio della Fasa Corporation . Copyright 1985" at the bottom. I don't have a copy of the English 2E rulebook to check against but the stat boxes have the 'Mech images as underlays.
I've gone through my History for anything with BattleTech or Italian in the last week; nada. I did find an Italian translation of MechWarrior: Age of Destruction at one potential address, so the file may have been swapped out. It looks official, no art or fiction, with a proper credits page and publisher/translater. Madness Divine (talk) 13:15, 11 February 2023 (EST)
Thanks for the info. That is helpful. That file definitely supplied some new information (as well as opening some questions for further exploration.) Thanks. --Dude RB (talk) 15:47, 11 February 2023 (EST)

Boxed Sets and Italics[edit]

Hi, I note you've added italics to the names of boxed sets (eg. CityTech, 2nd Edition). It's probably not wrong per se and it's not covered in our policy, but my gut feeling protests and tells me we don't italicize the boxed sets. Probably because they're product names as opposed to fiction titles. Frabby (talk) 07:43, 5 March 2023 (EST)

I thought we did it for all products; looks like I made an assumption that a lot of editors make. Madness Divine (talk) 11:23, 5 March 2023 (EST)

Affiliation formal[edit]

Hey MD,

So I was pretty happy to see you add the columns to a few of the system articles affiliation section. Something I have slowly been working on rolling out for a while, then your most recent edit to Rio does something different. The way I feel about this is kinds similar to your recent comment on the discord about the capitals on double heatsinks... Some things are just a constant battle as you know. Is it worth starting a new format before we have even gotten the other one rolled out? I am feeling that it will become a pretty frustrating situation of constantly going over the same work rather than getting actual stuff done.--Dmon (talk) 12:37, 11 March 2023 (EST)

I can understand. I found the three-column layout, at least on my 4K monitor, had some long lines straddle columns; in articles where the infobox is beside the Political affiliation section, there were so many entries taking two lines that switching to the two-column layout took the same amount of vertical space and was a lot more readable. It's not a change that's appropriate for most systems but there are some where it would be a significant improvement. There are a few Bibliography sections where the same idea will make sense. It's a case of "should the default method override the material?". Madness Divine (talk) 13:53, 11 March 2023 (EST)

Anna Lu Pohl[edit]

Hi MD - The juxtaposition is made in the novel itself, due to Pohl's attempt to emphasise her Capellan ancestry/sympathises, and isn't denying anyone can be tall. It's no different than saying it is notable that my brother, who is Chinese, has natural red hair (which he is and does).

I'd put it in quotes just to make it obvious it's a direct quote. It's a huge continent. Madness Divine (talk) 19:48, 12 March 2023 (EDT)

Just checking in.[edit]

Hope all is well. Congrats on reaching #2 on Special:UserScore--Talvin (talk) 14:58, 29 May 2023 (EDT)

Thanks. Madness Divine (talk) 16:38, 29 May 2023 (EDT)

With appreciation[edit]

Hey MD, as I am in the process of doing a couple database-wide updates I am reminded of how much your time and effort has benefited the wiki. I have found it certainly makes my job easier. Substantial Addition Award, 2nd ribbon I hope when you've sorted things out on your end, you'll be able to return and continue helping us. --Csdavis715 (talk) 10:38, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

Thanks. I'm not planning to stay away, just started something that's taken more time than I expected. Madness Divine (talk) 18:30, 1 July 2023 (EDT)
Glad to hear it. Give me a ping on Discord when you're ready and I'll get you caught up on some projects that are right up your alley. --Csdavis715 (talk) 09:54, 20 July 2023 (EDT)

Jasek Kelswa-Steiner[edit]

So yeah, this is very late. But I just wanted to respond to the title edit without just rolling in. Yes, Jasek is referred to as the Duke of Skye in Shattered Fortress. However, he's also referred to as the Duke of Tamar in the same sentence, because the Commonwealth isn't going to point out in his obit (which they made for propaganda purposes) that these claims are hollow boasts that he has no way of enforcing. Both of those titles are in the same situation, symbolic declarations without any actual authority over the world, which is why I undid your particular change there. --ReinhardtSteiner (talk) 15:53, 3 December 2023 (EST)